Reason Roundup

As 'Dumpster Fire' Debate Rages, Jorgensen Quietly Presents an Alternative

Plus: Trump administration drops bid to block undocumented teens from getting abortions, and more....


"That was a shitshow," CNN's Dana Bash told viewers last night after Joe Biden and Donald Trump finished the first 2020 presidential debate. Her unusual on-camera candor was topped by co-host Jake Tapper, who summed it up thusly: "That was a hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a train wreck. That was the worst debate I have ever seen."

Congrats, 2020—you've gone and outdone yourself again!

Debate commentary on social media—and among Reason staffers—largely agreed. "A chaotic, horrendous debate," Robby Soave called the affair, which was broadcast from Cleveland, Ohio. "Mostly unwatchable," writes Eric Boehm. I could only tune in to the end of the debate, which gave the collective WTF-ing afterward an air of initial mystery. What had I missed? What did you—if you're lucky—miss?

But for all the consternation, it doesn't seem anything particularly out of the ordinary took place between Trump and Biden—just the run-of-the-mill sniping and lies we've come to loathe and expect. My Reason colleagues can give you more detail:

Trump Pushed To Condemn White Nationalist Proud Boys, Instead Tells Them 'Stand Back and Stand By'

Trump and Biden Spar Over Which One Is the True Threat to America's Suburbs

Donald Trump Says Joe Biden Is the Candidate of Perpetual COVID-19 Lockdowns

Trump Claims Biden Called Black Americans 'Superpredators.' That Was Hillary Clinton

Tuesday's Debate Demonstrated That Donald Trump Wants This Election To Become a Chaotic Mess

In any event, the Biden/Trump debate was worlds apart from another presidential campaign event which happened in Cleveland last night. This one featured Libertarian Party (L.P.) presidential nominee Jo Jorgensen, who will be on the ballot in all 50 states and the District of Columbia but was not allowed up on the debate stage with Biden and Trump. Instead, Jorgensen fielded video questions from voters and in-person questions from me last night.

The Jorgensen campaign initially planned to host this counter-programming from an outside stage in downtown Cleveland. But after local police objected to the setup, it was moved to a nearby indoor studio. While Biden and Trump flung outrageous accusations at one another and put moderator and Fox News anchor Chris Wallace through the wringer, Jorgensen and I had a substantive, civilized chat about her views, the L.P., and the state of American politics.

You can watch the whole thing on Joregensen's Facebook page or via YouTube.

A few things that Jorgensen said she would do as president:

• Let businesses decided for themselves whether to be open during the COVID-19 pandemic and whether customers must wear masks.

• Decriminalize marijuana and other illegal drugs.

• Support legislation to end qualified immunity and no-knock raids.

• Pardon people in federal prison for "victimless crimes"—including whistleblowers Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning and Silk Road creator Ross Ulbricht. "If there is no victim, there is no crime," Jorgensen says.

• Refuse to sign legislation that creates new mandatory minimum sentencing requirements, in order "give the discretion back to the judges, and let them do their jobs."

• Cut the size of the FBI.

• Cut military spending and aid to foreign governments, and bring troops home from the Middle East and Afghanistan. Jorgensen says she would make America like "one giant Switzerland."

• Get the Food and Drug Administration out of the way of coronavirus testing, telemedicine appointments, and selling some medications (such as hormonal birth control pills) over the counter.

• Leave TikTok alone. While she "understand[s] the frustration" with some tech companies, "this is the definition of fascism—when the government starts dictating what private companies do—and we need to stop it," says Jorgensen.

• Get rid of tariffs.

• Expand immigration. "I want to turn immigration back to the way it was before we closed our borders in the 1920s," says Jorgensen.


Who won the Biden-Trump debate?

• "After three years of arguing in court to block pregnant, undocumented teenagers in government custody from obtaining abortions, the Trump administration dropped the fight on Tuesday," reports Buzzfeed.

• "Recently, the United States has moved to restrict and control the content that U.S. citizens can put on their phones—initiating a ban of both WeChat and TikTok from web stores. While it has yet to be seen whether these bans ever take full effect (as the dispute evolves almost daily) the ultimate success or failure of the American effort is almost irrelevant," writes R Street Institute Senior Fellow Paul Rosenzweig. "What is shocking, and dismaying, is that the effort was made at all."

NEXT: Seeing Like an Anarchist

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  1. That was a shitshow…

    Few of the partisans in my timeline declared victory so it must truly have been for both.

    1. Hello.

      Lol. Proud Boys white nationalists? Man these lies.

      And um. What’s with these retarded false equivalencies? Proud Boys aren’t burning down cities.

      We live in alternate universes.

      1. I was going to ask if the proud boys was the Portland group that is for lower immigration regulation

        1. Reason should PRODUCE PROOF they’re ‘white supremacists’ or else shut the fuck up. They’re no better than the ‘Antifa is an idea’ retards.

          Tired of these false accusations. This is serious.

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          2. SPLC’s say so isn’t good enough anymore?

            1. SPLC is no longer reasonable. They claim Douglas Murray, Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson as promoters of hate speech.

          3. The narrative is that nationalism = white nationalism. Now get with the program.

            1. My cousin’s ex-wife, who epitomizes the stereotypical latte-guzzling white leftist, actually argued that black people acting like racist assholes was justified as self-defense. That she happens to live in Estes Park, which has all of about 25 black people, was left unexplored.

              1. Haven’t you heard? Living in an exclusionary, upper-class white neighborhood is fine, as long as you think approved thoughts, and feel the approved FEELZ.

      2. That’s Chrissy Matthews showing his lack of impartiality. One of many times he did so in the ShitPocalypse.

        1. Or Wallace…I get those two confused so easily.

          1. Wallace was beyond terrible last night. Pushed quite a few DNC talking points… Critical Race Theory was just race sensitivity training? The Charlotesville lie. He helped tell Biden at least twice what Biden’s platform was when Biden got lost. Caught laughing with Biden near the end on a dig at Trump.

            1. Probably the biggest example is when Wallace changed the topic when Trump brought up Hunter.

            2. Wallace seemed pretty fair to me, and tried to deal with a couple of five year olds as best he could.

              1. He called Critical Race Theory “racial sensitivity training”.
                He shut down talk of antifa so he could bring up “white supremacists”.
                He quoted Biden’s father.

                Wtf, man?

                1. following in daddy’s footsteps.

                  1. Interesting that there was no mention or questions about Middle East peace agreements.

                    1. indeed. or “whew” from other perspectives lol

                    2. Didn’t read the debates’ formats but normally they have a night that is exclusively foreign policy.

                    3. I quit working at shoprite and now I make $65-85 per/h. How? I’m working online! My work didn’t exactly make me happy so I decided to take a chance on something new…TRf after 4 years it was so hard to quit my day job but now I couldn’t be happier.

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        2. Actually, if you look at the transcripts of the debate, Biden is the one that threw the name, “Proud Boys”, out there are an example of a right-wing group.

          1. Understandable, though, to be confused about who said what, with everyone talking over each other.

      3. Whatever. Trump has a great deal of influence on the Proud Boys. When he uttered the words, “stand by”, they took at as an order, regardless of how he meant those words:

        Trump could follow up, today, with a clear statement telling them not to engage in violence. But, he won’t.

        1. So be afraid, bitch.
          Run to blmantifa for protection.

          1. Internet tough guy, Nardz.

            1. Internet squawking bird, The White Knight.

              1. It sucks when you have a nice echo chamber going and someone disturbs the echoes.

                1. You really imagine yourself as some sort of internet dragonslayer, huh.

                  If you weren’t a bien pensant with internalized Vox articles as your only weapon, you may be more effective.

                  1. Who are you voting for this November 3rd, Mother’s? Biden? Trump? Jorgenson?

                    1. They probably would mail me a ballot if I tried.

                    2. “They” probably would. And “they”’would also not count it since “they” validate the ballots.

                    3. But your team is all for “counting every ballot”, WK. You have teams of lawyers filing to do just that in every state.

                      Wouldn’t it be racist or something not to accept Canadian votes.

                    4. I quit working at shoprite and now I make $65-85 per/h. How? I’m working online! My work didn’t exactly make me happy so I decided to take a chance on something new…WEr after 4 years it was so hard to quit my day job but now I couldn’t be happier.

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                2. Not at all. Your squawking amuses me, Dee.

            2. @The White Knight Hey shit for brains, why don’t you open your mouth over a toilet and spray it all over there instead of on a comment board when people are trying to actually have a discussion? Another thing, it would be a good idea for you personally to drink Draino, you’d be doing us a favor.

        2. “…Trump could follow up, today, with a clear statement telling them not to engage in violence. But, he won’t.”

          You could seek treatment, but you won’t.

          1. Are you still as angry as you were last night?

        3. “Trump could follow up, today, with a clear statement telling them not to engage in violence. But, he won’t.”

          But they DON’T engage in violence. Only time violence occurs with them is when antifa comes in and attacks them. It’s like blaming lynching on blacks being “too uppity”

          1. “But they DON’T engage in violence.”
            “Only time violence occurs with them is when antifa comes in and attacks them.”

            Those two sentences contradict each other.

            The passive voice in the second sentence is reminiscent of statements like, “The police officer’s gun was discharged.”

            Did you mean to argue that it has never been the Proud Boys fault when they have engaged in violence? If so, I would argue that showing up somewhere you do not need to be looking for a fight lays at least partial blame for ensuing violence at your feet.

            The passive voice in the second sentence is reminiscent of statements like, “The police ofiicer’s weapon was discharged.”

            Did you mean to make the argument that it’s never been

            1. She shouldn’t have worn that dress

            2. Change engage to initiate, and then get back to us.

              1. damikesc wrote “engage” not “initiate”.

            3. just to be clear, you’re arguing that if BLM engages in an actual peaceful protest, and the locals don’t like it, it would be partially BLM’s fault if the locals decide to beat the shit out of them? The proud boys are ready to fight because they know they can’t count on local government to actually enforce the laws when the wrong political side is involved. And in the extreme far left areas like Seattle, Portland, and Berkley, this isn’t something that started in 2020

              1. Close. If a bunch of “Black Lives Matter” protestors show up, WITH WEAPONS, to a place where it is likely they will be clashing with another group or “the locals”, it would be partially their fault if violence occurs, even if they didn’t initiate the first act of violence.

                Side note: The actual organization “Black Lives Matter” typically organizes events like marches, speeches, and rallies, typically in the day or early evening. A lot of rioting and protesting is attributed to “Black Lives Matter” when the affiliation is nothing more than some of the rioters or protestors holding BLM signs, wearing BLM shirts, or, sometimes, just being black.

        4. He also told them to “stand down”, which is an order to not initiate violence. “stand by” just means be prepared.

          1. You might be confused. Wallace suggested that Trump use the words, “stand down”, and Trump turned that into “stand by”. It’s hard to say if it was intentional or if Trump misspoke.

            What can be said is that Trump, today, could issue a follow-up statement plainly denouncing right-wing violence.

            1. And Biden could denounce left-wing violence; they could hold hands, and do it together! (Cue The White Knight’s “special pleading” in 3…2…1…)

              1. Biden should.

        5. Do you have notarized documents proving that this represents all of the Proud Boys?

          1. Nope, and since Proud Boys is a loose, decentralized organization, it’s possible there are some Proud Boys that Trump would not have any influence with.

        6. Trump could follow up, today, with a clear statement telling them not to engage in violence. But, he won’t.

          Why would he need to say that since they have never once instigated any violence?

          1. Oh, maybe because he is President and trying to keep the country united and peaceful.

      4. Didn’t Trump assert that though? The question was about white nationalists and Trump answered by bringing up the Proud Boys.

        But the whole thing was a ridiculous entertaining embarrassment on this nation. It was glorious.

        1. No. It’s easy to get confused because everyone was talking over each other:

          – Wallace challenged Trump to denounce violence by right-wing groups.
          – Trump said, “sure”, and asked for some kind of label or name for whomever he was supposed to be denouncing.
          – Biden interjected, “Proud Boys”, and Trump used it in his ambiguous denouncement.

        2. I think the “Proud Boys” suggestion came from Wallace and Biden. Trump asked them to name the group he was supposed to condemn. They told him “Proud Boys” and he addressed them.

          That’s why this whole talking point is weak sauce. He said he’s against white supremacists. He’ll call out a group if people accuse them of being violent. On the other side, Biden just insists there’s no such as antifa so he doesn’t have to address them at all.

          1. Thanks both. Yeah I missed a lot of the finer policy points between laughing my ass off and sips of Scotch.

    2. Does anybody have any ideas about how I can make a ton of money by working from home? If you could give me a link, that’d be great.

      1. Do you have a laptop? I heard all you need is a laptop.

      2. You have to quit your job at Shop-Rite first, Ken.

        1. And lose any English skills you currently have.

          1. And find a place to keep the buckets.

      3. I’ve heard of a site, “Onlyfans” or something like that, where you can connect meaningfully with people who like you, want to hear what you have to say, and will give you money. You could give it a shot?

        1. And then you can deduct your gym membership and clothing budget as business expenses.

        2. oh no. I’m not sure if the world is ready for Ken’s “shultz”

      4. Learn to code, apply at Google/Facebook/Twitter, if you can stand it. They all let you work from home for now.

      5. You should have had oligarch parents so you wouldn’t have to work to get paid.

        1. Maybe Ken could get Biden to adopt him.

    3. Frank Luntz comment on his focus group of undecided voters:
      “They felt like they didn’t get the policy they were looking for,” Luntz said. “It actually makes them less likely to vote for any candidate.”

      Maybe that was Trump’s strategy

    4. Chris Wallace lost all control with his opening remarks by attacking Trump that wasn’t a debate that was Trump defending himself from the lies of Chris and Joe

      1. At least if the left prevails, he’ll have a job assigned to him

    5. The Jo “Alternative”:
      Jo Jorgensen @Jorgensen4POTUS Jul 10
      It is not enough to be passively not racist, we must be actively anti-racist.
      #BlackLivesMatter #VoteGold

      If you’re *not* a fan of racist Marxism, maybe this is an election to withhold your vote from the shiny new racist Marxist “Libertarian” Party.

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  2. My Reason colleagues can give you more detail…

    Those headlines suggest the disgust leans one way more than the other.

  3. …Jorgensen and I had a substantive, civilized chat about her views, the L.P., and the state of American politics.

    ZZZZzzzzzzZZzzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzz… Nobody wants that from a contender for leader of the free world.

    1. No thanks I don’t vote for SJW’s.

    2. Did ENB slip Jo the questions or the answers beforehand?

    3. Somehow they had a substantive conversation without delving into CRT or other issues around it from what I saw. I didn’t watch the whole thing, but looked at their agenda and watched some. It’s kind of one of the biggest issues currently, and one Jo failed out earlier this year. Not sure why Jo wouldn’t take the opportunity to clarify.

      1. delving into CRT or other issues around it

        What do old TVs have to do with anything?

        1. It’s a weighty subject.

          I mean, ever try to lift a big screen CRT? Takes a posse of longshorermen to haul those things.

          1. Those were the days. A Ronald Reagan debate on a 32″ TV that would kill someone if you dropped it on them.

          2. And unbalanced weight to boot!

          3. I still have a 42″ HD flat screen CRT is anyone wants it and owns a forklift.

        2. CRTs use more energy than newer TVs. Too many people watching in California would cause another blackout.

    4. Did Jo explain her total support for BLM?

  4. That was a shitshow…

    Just warming up for the *real* one… 8-(

  5. Until the news media takes genuine policy debates seriously on a consistent basis, “debates—in the narrower sense of that word—will, like so much else in America, continue to be a shitshow…”

    That is clearly not what the news consumer slash voter wants.

    1. Also, journalistic takes on public policy have not historically been spectacular. Journalists are as much insiders as politicians. This singular bubble could not be more divorced from the reality most people live.

      1. Academics and journalists have done more to destroy this country than even politicians, so Jo and ENB can shut the fuck up

        1. If you can’t do, teach.
          If you can’t teach, teach gym.
          If you can’t teach gym, then rant about the oppressive hierarchy that keeps you from your righteous potential and personal fulfillment.

          1. I heard it as:
            If you can’t do, teach.
            If you can’t teach, manage.
            If you can’t manage, run for office.

  6. Who won the Biden-Trump debate?

    If it truly changed no minds, then Biden won. Trump needed to gain voters or see Biden voters turned off.

    1. Only if you believe polling is accurate, and it hasn’t been for 4 years. There is more than enough evidence showing, as an example, 60% of voters don’t share their real views with pollsters.

      1. Is that from a poll?

        1. I thought it was funny.

    2. The CNN pre-debate poll shows Biden clearly won debate.

      U.S.—In a highly accurate and scientific CNN poll taken pre-debate, presidential candidate Joe Biden has had a clear win over incumbent President Donald Trump, with 98% saying Biden won the debate tonight and only 2% saying Trump won.

      “Biden just dominated Trump with his very non-senile performance,” said pundit Jacob Ingram. “Or at least that’s what everyone knows is going to happen.”

      The poll sampled smart people who are also attractive and cool, and it’s very clear that those people all think Biden is great and have already awarded him the win in tonight’s debate against the dumb and abrasive Trump.

      1. Satire doesn’t exist any more. The Bee is one of the best outlets for solid journalism these days.

        Bombshell Report Reveals Christian Believes Christian Things

    3. Trump crushed him on policy answers, but I think Biden won. Trump was like a boxer who was easily beating the over-the-hill opponent who shouldn’t have been in the ring, but he kept beating on him when he was down instead of going back to his own corner to let Biden look dazed and confused. At some point the audience starts to sympathize with the guy getting the beat-down.

      Biden only needed to not appear mentally incompetent. He mostly held it together and Trump let him off the hook by not giving him 2 minutes at a time to go wandering off track.

      1. True.

    4. according to Telemundo, 66% said during the post-debate poll that Trump won. That doesn’t necessarily mean they’d vote for him of course but it ain’t a good look for Biden, especially if they’re representative of the greater population

    5. They both lost. The only question is who lost more.

      Mostly the country lost. I think the people who matter most, independents or undecided are disgusted and are just going to tune it out and stay home.

      Both of them failed to make a coherent rational case for policies and issues people care about. Instead they acted like a couple of old drunken idiots arguing in a bar.

    6. The purpose of the first debate is for the challenger to make the case against the incumbent. Trump sucked up so much of the attention that he successfully prevented Biden from making that case.

      He further demoralized Biden supporters who may now be less energized to vote at all, so it’s an added bonus.

      GAINING new voters was not necessarily the goal here.

  7. I keep hearing from Trump haters telling me that Biden was just as awful as Trump . . .

    Those people aren’t taking time out of their day to fill out a ballot or stand in line at the polls if they don’t think there’s much difference between the two. There are huge differences between them on policy, but Biden blew it if he failed to demonstrate a difference between himself and Trump on civility.

    My bet?

    Thousands of suburban women in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin won’t bother tuning in for the next debate and won’t take time out of their busy day come November to go stand in line at the polls to vote for either one of the jerks they saw on TV last night.

    Advantage Trump.

    1. Does real voting even matter?
      They keep telling us their plan: massive vote fraud.
      They keep telling us their policy: totalitarian marxism.

      What the fuck do you think happens if they’re successful?

      1. Voting will certainly not matter, at least if current trends continue. Any political movement founded on the principles that righteous people know better than (and FOR) others, and that government is the answer to all questions, will eventually announce that people can’t be trusted to vote. Official party reps will cast votes for their minions–for their own good, of course.

        1. Sounds like my HOA.

          1. You joined your HOA voluntarily and you can leave any time without penalty.

            If only US citizenship worked that way.

            1. You can check out anytime you like,
              but you can never leave.

    2. Many of them pinned their hopes on Biden leading the Democratic Partty away from the Great Awokening.

      They were not impressed.

      1. Biden’s claim that Green New Deal was deficit neutral and then 10 seconds later saying he didn’t support the Green New Deal (it is literally on his website) was amazing.

        1. That is a good spot for a neutral moderator, who nevertheless felt like correcting the debaters, to simply point out, “Vice President, don’t you say that you support the GND on your own website?”

          And what’s with addressing Biden as Mr. Vice President anyway? The Vice President is Mike Pence. Do we call Obama, “Mr. President,” still?

          1. Unfortunately, that is the common practice. Which is, of course, stupid. It essentially changes a job you were hired for by the public into a title of nobility.

          2. Etiquette is to refer to someone out of office by the highest office they previously held. Yes, Obama would still be referred to as Mr. President.

            1. Today I Learned…

              Seriously, I had no idea. I thought that if their previous titles were mentioned, that ‘former’ was mentioned at the same time. Wrong.

              How silly. No wonder these fuckers think they’re nobility.

            2. I believe Obama is referred to as “Your Holiness”, not “Mr. President”..

    3. Biden accused Trump of causing cataclysmic weather events, viruses, racism, recessions, and political violence. But these accusations were conclusory and entirely devoid of substance. Indeed, they were completely irrational positions. Biden’s message, at the end of the night, amounted to little more than “Trump is evil; you know it, and he knows it.” I do not believe the strategy of trying to paint Trump as Lucifer incarnate won over anybody that does not already despise Trump.

      Trump, for his part, did not do all that much. However, he did manage to get Biden to draw a line of demarcation between himself and the activist arm of the Democratic party — which can only cost Biden votes. Many times Trump quipped that Biden “just lost the Left” and I think Trump was correct to point that out on live television.

      I do not think Trump gained any supporters last night. However, I do believe Biden lost supporters — which is a default win for Trump.

      1. “I do not think Trump gained any supporters last night. However, I do believe Biden lost supporters — which is a default win for Trump.”

        I didn’t watch the debate, but my read from the reactions to it is precisely that.

        If you can’t take the high ground against Trump and Biden comes across as no different from Trump on civility–to people for whom not being so obnoxious was important–then you blew a chance to appeal to those people.

        And I think the people for whom not being obnoxious like Trump was important are probably the suburban women in the Midwest that Biden needs in order to win.

        He turned them off. And it’s not that they’re about to vote for Trump. It’s just that they’re not likely to go out of their way to show up at the polls. The people he turned off weren’t those who might vote for Trump. The people he turned off were probably women for whom the question was whether to vote for Biden or whether to not bother voting at all. My read is that they’re not voting because of Biden’s performance last night.

        1. I did watch it and the best part was the commentary from my friends while we watched on Zoom together. How anyone comes away thinking that it mattered one bit, I don’t know. I just say back with a glass of Scotch and enjoyed. It was by far the greatest debate I ever saw. The worst will be the SNL sketch to follow; no way they can ever top the comedy from the original. It was by far the best comedy performance of the year. I couldn’t stop laughing last night.

      2. Biden accused Trump of causing cataclysmic weather events, viruses, racism,

        He also implied the virus itself was racist.

        1. Well it hasn’t been taught Critical Race Theory so of course it is.

        2. Trump’s performance left much to be desired, but he was at least flubbing within the scope of reality. Biden was living in an alternate reality entirely.

      3. Biden accused Trump of causing cataclysmic weather events, viruses, racism, recessions, and political violence.

        And yet, NPRs fact check of the debate this morning on their 1A show only nicked Biden for not calling Trump a liar to his face.

        They can’t defund that lefty propaganda factory fast enough.

        1. The best was when NPR called Biden’s claim that 100 million Americans have pre-existing conditions substantially true. I guess technically herpes is a pre-existing condition. Mostly harmless, but still, 1 out of 3 and all.

    4. teh next debate will require Trump to be gaged and not respond to any comments to defend himself from lies.
      I did like it when Trump told Joe you don’t know how many people have died from covid in Russia or China. Also when he kept up with how Hunter got $3.5 mill from Russia all joe could say was dicreditied and Wallace accepted joes answer which was not an answer

    5. Biden should back out of the next 2 debates. He has a reasonable out, since Trump refuses to abide by the rules. Biden showed he can speak in complete sentences, and acted like he cared about people. The more times he appears in public the higher the risk is that he messes up.

      1. Exactly what I think will happen, CE. Despite the promise of decent ratings from a sequel. What were the ratings on this, anyway? I was watching the stream from CSPAN.

  8. What is shocking, and dismaying, is that the effort was made at all.

    State data collection is a zero sum game, and the United States government means to starve the Chinese of data.

  9. How to describe last night’s “debate”?

    A series of loaded questions designed to elicit verbal pablum posed to people that have no interest in answering questions, spoken to an audience that could not care less about what was being said.

  10. So nobody was “presidential “?

    1. I was presidential the whole time. I was sitting on my presidential couch, eating a presidential sandwich, watching an old episode of Battlestar Galactica instead of the debate–like a president. At one point, I got my presidential ass up off the presidential couch to let my presidential dog out through the presidential sliding glass door. She went outside and took a presidential crap in the presidential backyard. It was so presidential I could hardly believe it!

      1. Ken Shultz 2020!

    2. What does being presidential even mean? Saying nice things that have no substance?

      1. Yes.

      2. Go back and watch a debate featuring Ronald Reagan. Mock your enemies while remaining a perfect gentleman.

  11. Congratulations!
    Somehow you just proved yourself to be dumber than Putin stooge Drumpf, who is literally a national security threat. Please keep digging, princess.
    Biden was the only sane adult on stage who wasn’t fake orange tanned, profusely sweating, clearly hopped up on Adderall, and refused to condemn white supremacists.
    Coronavirus Disease (COVID 19) Guidelines according to WHO.

    1. ANOTHER sock, squirrelsy?

      1. I think it’s an effective spam bot

        1. Same difference.

        2. Not good news when the AI algorithm chooses Sqrsly to learn from.

          1. At least we know the human race won’t be enslaved by a superior intellect anytime soon.

        3. I wonder, did the bot just lift that quote complete from some other comment, and tack the spam link line on? Or did it create it itself? Because if it is the latter, that is remarkably indistinguishable from a typical TDS-afflicted commentor. Hell, it could write 2/3 of ENB’s daily roundups.

          1. What I’ve been saying. It’s remarkably more lucid than many of the resident trolls.

            1. Yeah, but if that awesomepic4u really is awesome, the bot can say whatever it wants.

    2. “…Drumpf,..”

      Q: Why do brain-damaged TDS victims spend all their time making up nick-names which embarrass 1st-grade kids?
      A: Those kids are smarter than they are.

  12. I told you all that #BidenIsAsSharpAsEver. He won the debate and he’s going to win the election.

    1. “clown”

    2. Much like a 50-year old butter knife is sharp as ever.

    3. Biden just needs another 47 years in office to solve all problems known to mankind.

  13. What did you—if you’re lucky—miss?

    A overt debasement that still is not enough to wake people up to the federal government’s corruptibility.

    1. “A overt debasement”

      I did what now?

      1. I thought over de-basement is the area above where a 30 year old “activist” lives?

      2. You used a instead of an, you fool.

  14. “when the government starts dictating what private companies do”

    Yeah the government has been so hands off up until this point….

    1. Its not like they dictate what kind of products can and cant be made: toilets, light bulbs, appliances, cars, …

  15. At this point, just put debates on Jerry Springer.

    ‘Bitch ho slept with my half-brother!’

    1. You are not the father!

    2. I couldn’t decide whether it was two drunk old men yelling at a bar, or a rap battle between two really, really bad rappers.

      1. T-Rump and B-diddle.

    3. The rumors about Hunter were debunked. Biden said so. Stop bringing up his brother’s widow.

  16. Was a crap fest last night. Everyone lost including Wallace. A count had Wallace as having 35 interruptions for Trump, 0 for Biden. Wallace also pushed the Charleston lie in his question (including Trump not condemning white supremist). Even and Politifact have called these lines false. Trump interrupted too much, was flustered on Covid when all he had to do was point out H1N1 had 60 million people infected, but a lower IFR. Biden lied about his son getting money from foreign governments, calling it debunked. He refused to answer on court packing and called Antifa a myth.

    The biggest take away is Joe does want to continue lockdowns as Soave rightly pointed out. He denied the strong economy prior to the lockdowns and kept claiming Trump had pushed the lockdowns when it was governors and mayors (federalist position).

    Joe also looked tired and cranky. You could tell his wife scolded him to not be aggressive as he apologized for calling Trump a clown twice while telling him to shut up multiple times.

    SO everyone lost.

    Biggest issue is still covid, the lockdowns, and the threats to the economy and the way of life. Joe lost that one big time.

    1. I kept waiting for Joe to ask for a glass of egg nog.

    2. Yea agreed on pretty much all that. Melania was bangin tho, as usual

      1. Over/under she’s kinky in bed.

        1. Over/under? I’d say yes in either position.

    3. “Joe also looked tired and cranky. You could tell his wife scolded him to not be aggressive as he apologized for calling Trump a clown twice while telling him to shut up multiple times.”

      He may have been trying so hard to show America that he isn’t senile that he forgot to show them that he wasn’t an obnoxious asshole.

      1. I have faith that Joe Biden can be both senile and an obnoxious asshole. Don’t sell yourself short Joe!

    4. Calling antifa an idea and not an organization is when Biden demonstrated he has no concern for the truth.

      1. Why should he, CE? Who’s going to hold him accountable? Certainly not anyone at a media network or major newspaper.

  17. Will jo also kneel raise a fist and say her name?

  18. This is a rare time where I actually agree with ENB for the most part. Wtf is going on.

  19. I’ll never understand why people watch that shit, let alone get so into it.

    It’s probably similar to my friends who aren’t into sports. I’ll start going on a rambling tangent about conference standings or depth chart issues, and they’ll stare at me with a mixture of bewilderment and mild curiosity.

    Human nature I guess, everyone needs a team.


    caught on a hot mic referring to masks as “political theatre” that they want to get “on camera”.

    We already knew that, but thank you for the confirmation!

    1. Face masks are the new TSA.

  21. Ross Clark: The Critics Of ‘Smart Meters’ Were Right All Along

    But don’t expect even these batteries to get built. The Government is trying to solve the problem of a lack of energy storage through what is calls “capacity auctions”. The bids for batteries, however, are losing out to something called Demand Side Response. If you haven’t heard that jargon before, it means exactly what Scottish and Southern Electricity Networks is proposing to do: persuading people to turn off appliances when electricity demand is too high.

    In other words, the electricity industry has worked out that it is going to be cheaper not to bother building batteries but instead to cut us off when the sun isn’t shining and wind isn’t blowing. As far as the Government’s capacity market is concerned, a kilowatt-hour of energy saved is the equivalent of a kilowatt-hour stored.

    1. What we need to develop is a safe alternative efficient form of energy storage to replace the battery. I imagen it could be about 10000kwh/cubix meter, an for easy storage and transport it should be liquid. If only

      1. Like you could pump it out of the ground or something…..

        1. If it was discovered today, it would be illegal.

          1. Jesus. Can you imagine what the regulatory and liability regime would look like if you invented gasoline or natural gas today? No way Joe Public would be allowed anywhere near it. We’d have to drop our cars off at a licensed garage whenever we needed to refuel them.

            1. As if you would be allowed to have a car.

    2. if the smart meter went to Delaware State and finished last in its class, it ain’t smart.

  22. I was not willing to drink enough to watch it
    I listened to part of it and it sounded like terrible moderation

  23. “If there is no victim, there is no crime,” Jorgensen says.

    Unpossible! If I feel victimized (and my feelings are always right) then there must have been a crime. And therefore I must march against the criminals and demand political and financial compensation.


    Listen carefully to what @realDonaldTrump says when he’s grilling Biden about @GenFlynn & the Logan Act. Trump says


    Look at Biden’s face when he says it.

    1. That would be an interesting October surprise…

  25. So what was your favorite part of the debate last night?

    My favorite part was when Joe Biden brought up his son who served honorably in the military, and who died a tragic death, and Trump acted like he had never even heard of Beau Biden and proceeded to use the mere mention of any one of Biden’s sons to launch yet another attack on Hunter.

    Oh man, Trump totally showed Biden that he doesn’t give a shit about Beau or even give a crap that Joe lost a son! Trump totally pwned Joe! Everything is fair game as a vehicle for attacking Biden, even his dead son! MAGA! Am I right?

    If Trump loses, this type of thing will be the reason why. Not because Americans dislike Trump’s policies wholesale, not because Americans suddenly like socialism. It will be because Trump is a garbage human being and he demonstrates it on a daily basis and last night we all saw it first hand without being filtered by fawning right-wing media or spin doctors or intermediaries.

    We’re not being asked to vote on abstract policies, we are being asked to vote for a person. And Trump the person is not worth it. He makes socialists look good by comparison. Maybe Team Red should have thought of that before hitching their wagon to a narcissistic orange clown.

    1. Crybaby.

    2. Biden’s whole family are corrupt parasites who have been robbing the people for half a century, and you want to play the pity card?

      The context of Biden bring up Beau was his son’s payoffs from China. Obviously it was about Hunter, and Biden tried to deflect to Beau because Biden is, like you, an utter scumbag.

      1. The moment Beau’s name was mentioned, the correct response from Trump should have been “I’m sorry for your loss.”

        1. Beau passed away five years ago, and Biden is compulsive about mentioning him for sympathy.

          Why exactly should Trump continue to play along with that?

          1. Because chemjeff’s delicate sensibilities must be coddled.

    3. Yeah, I agree with this. Biden definitely made some awful stumbles here and there. I was pissed he seemed to not completely disavow the Wokepocalypse nonsense, and also that Wallace pushed the fake narrative about Trump’s Charlottesville comments. But overall, its clear Biden won the primary because most (not all) people want both the socialism and the reality TV show bullshit to stop.

      1. “Biden won the primary because most (not all) people want both the socialism and the reality TV show bullshit to stop.”

        He won the primary for being the least socialist candidate who also ran the least social justice warrior campaign.

        Elizabeth Warren came in third in her own state of Massachusetts for being a socialist and running a social justice warrior campaign. (And if that makes you lose among Democrats in Massachusetts, where does it make you win–other than with the press?)

        If the general election were won by the person who was the least socialist and the most anti-social justice warrior, Trump would win. But the general election will be about jobs and the economic recovery, and Biden is associated with being pro-lockdown, anti-reopening the schools for working moms, etc., etc. The question is whether the recession has sapped Trump’s argument for being better on the economic recovery than Biden. We won’t know until November.

        1. He won because two people who were BEATING HIM IN THE RACE dropped out BEFORE SUPER TUESDAY and endorsed him.

          The fix was in to make sure Bernie didn’t win, and this is the immediate karma for that decision.

    4. “If Trump loses, this type of thing will be the reason why. Not because Americans dislike Trump’s policies wholesale, not because Americans suddenly like socialism. It will be because Trump is a garbage human being and he demonstrates it on a daily basis and last night we all saw it first hand without being filtered by fawning right-wing media or spin doctors or intermediaries.”

      Thanks for sharing your feelings. Your feelings are extremely important to all of us.

      1. Says the guy who is so afraid of imaginary communists that he is going to throw away every shred of principle that he ever had and run to Daddy Trump to save him from the Antifa Bogeyman.

        1. chemtard simping for his anarcho-commie boos again.

        2. Don’t believe your lying eyes everybody!

    5. Yeah, I can’t imagine why Biden would want to put his dead veteran son front and center instead of the one who’s a drug-addled deadbeat dad. You really smoked out the Bad Orange Man there, chemtard!

    6. Well, out of nowhere, without responding to any question posed by the moderator, Biden lashed out at Trump for calling Beau Biden a “loser,” apparently melding the false Atlantic story about Trump making fun of the troops in France with his desire to boast about his dead son.

      Was it a senior moment? I do not know what it was, but it was absolutely ridiculous and completely random.

      1. It sounded like a pre-rehearsed talking point that Biden was trying to fit in somewhere.

        And, of course, Trump wanted to fit in talking about Hunter.

        Both Biden sons were injected into the conversation somewhat awkwardly.

    7. “Oh man, Trump totally showed Biden that he doesn’t give a shit about Beau or even give a crap that Joe lost a son!”

      Biden tried saying that Trump was helping millionaires and billionaires get rich. Trump pointed out that Biden’s son got very rich under Biden. It was a very valid counter point. And so what did Biden do? He said, “Speaking of my son…” and then he described Beau.

      So you, Jeff, are being a propagandist here. It was Biden who tried to confuse the issue. BIDEN used the corpse of his son to defend Hunter and himself against corruption. This is a shameless appeal to emotion that I would expect from SPBP, not you. You can do better.

      Vice President Joe Biden: (45:42)
      Under this president, we become weaker, sicker, poor, more divided and more violent. When I was vice president, we inherited a recession. I was asked to fix it. I did. We left him a booming economy and he caused the recession. With regard to being weaker, the fact is that I’ve gone head to head with Putin and made it clear to him we’re not going to take any of his stuff. He’s Putin’s puppy. He still refuses to even say anything to Putin about the bounty on the heads of American soldiers.

      President Donald J. Trump: (46:14)
      You son got three and a half million dollars.

      Vice President Joe Biden: (46:17)
      By the way, my son…

      […Argument about interupting…]

      Vice President Joe Biden: (46:42)
      So thirdly, we’re poor. The billionaires have gotten much more wealthy by a tune of over $3- $400 billion more just since COVID. You in the home, you got less you’re in more trouble than you were before. In terms of being more violent. When we were in office there were 15% less violence in America than there is today. He’s President United States. It’s on his watch. And with regard to more divided the nation, it can’t stay divided. We can’t be this way. And speaking of my son, the way you talk about the military, the way you talk about them being losers and being and just being suckers. My son was in Iraq. He spent a year there. He got the Brown Star. He got the Conspicuous Service Medal. He was not a loser. He was a Patriot and the people left behind there were heroes.

      President Donald J. Trump: (47:39)

      Vice President Joe Biden: (47:39)
      And I resent-

      President Donald J. Trump: (47:40)
      Are you talking Hunter, are you talking about Hunter.

      Vice President Joe Biden: (47:42)
      I’m talking about my son, Beau Biden, you’re talking about Hunter?

      President Donald J. Trump: (47:44)
      I don’t know Beau. I know Hunter. Hunter got thrown out of the military. He was thrown out dishonorably discharged.

      1. This was perhaps the most incoherent pivot by Biden the entire night. It did not make the slightest bit of sense, and was completely out of step with the flow of the entire exchange. That Biden started screaming toward the end of his unprompted bromide was even more weird.

        1. He probably had “bring up Beau in case Blumph mentions Hunter” on his note cards.

          1. He totally had that on his cards. Too bad he fucked it up by conflating the useless one with the dead one himself.

        2. It was a masterful attempt at a trap, but I don’t know if it worked. They tried dangling Beau out there so that Biden could have his “Have you no decency, sir?!” moment. But so far, it seems the only people it worked on was Jeff.

          1. It didn’t work on anyone who wasn’t already voting for Biden or a simp for the left.

            In fact, I suspect the last thing his camp wants is people doing a comparison/contrast between Daddy’s two boys, especially the one who’s still alive.

            1. I tend to agree. I am just trying to see their logic, and it sort of makes sense. The fact of the matter is that most people don’t know anything about these candidates. So Trump is always talking about Biden’s son. So Biden makes this plea about how noble his son was who is now dead, and how dare Trump be mean to his memory. They were clearly trying to get Trump on the defensive so that the public would confuse Hunter with Beau. But Trump stomped on that quickly by forcing Biden to clarify who he was talking to. And at the same time, he changed the subject from the military “suckers” story.

              So I think I see what Biden (or his staff) tried to do here…It just really didn’t work.

          2. Vox told him it worked, to be fair to Jeff.

      2. “…You can do better.”
        You are certainly the optimist…

      3. Do you think Trump could have spent one millisecond to say “I’m sorry for your loss” or “The nation thanks your son for his service”? Do you?

        1. Because, of course, that is the purpose of a debate.

        2. It would have been what a civil person would do, and would have made him look better to civil people. But Trump’s fan base loves it when he is rude, because they believe it somehow is more honest. Despite mountains of evidence that Trump is not an honest person.

        3. “Do you think Trump could have spent one millisecond to say “I’m sorry for your loss” or “The nation thanks your son for his service”? Do you?”

          Come on man, you can do better than this. You came here trying to say that Trump dog piled on Biden’s son. I’m guessing because you didn’t watch the debate and just saw talking points at some leftist website.

          When it is pointed out that in fact Biden specifically USED his dead son as a shield against criticism, you now complain that Trump should have had better manners. Please. Biden tried to deflect valid criticism with an appeal to sympathy and Trump didn’t fall for it.

          1. No, Overt, I actually watched the entire sickening debate. Yes Joe was trying to deflect criticism. And Trump “didn’t fall for it” in the most horrible way possible.

            There are about a million ways that Trump could have handled that without looking like a horrible human being, but Trump being Trump, he picked the one way that completely represents who he really is. “I don’t know Beau”?? Are you kidding me?

            1. “No, Overt, I actually watched the entire sickening debate. ”

              Then I guess you really have no excuse other than being completely blinded by bias. *shrug*

              “There are about a million ways that Trump could have handled that without looking like a horrible human being, ”

              No, I’m pretty sure there was only one way that Trump could have answered that to your sattisfaction- “Oh, I’m sorry your other son died. I guess I won’t talk about Hunter any more.”

              “Horrible human being.” Give me a break, Jeff. He said, “I’m not talking about your other son, I’m talking about Hunter.” And he is a horrible human being because he didn’t pause to genuflect for Biden? Whatever.

              And if skipping over condolences is some sort of horrible thing, then what does that make Biden for deciding to invoke the memory of his dead son in order to avoid having to answer for his actions of corruption? Don’t you think that makes him a bit worse?

      4. President Donald J. Trump: (47:44)
        I don’t know Beau. I know Hunter.

        That’s right. Because Beau is not useful to Trump for attacking Joe Biden.

        1. And Hunter is. Thanks for confirming that.

        2. “That’s right. Because Beau is not useful to Trump for attacking Joe Biden.”

          It works both ways though. Trump called out Biden’s hypocrisy by showing how HUNTER was getting rich off his dad- just like Biden was accusing Trump.

          Biden brought Beau up out of the blue. Why don’t you address the ghoulish father who tries to memory-hole Hunter- to deny his existence.
          “Your son made 3 million dollars off your influence!”
          “My Son? My son was a decorated war vet!”

          It is transparently obvious that Biden was trying to confuse the public who was not paying attention- to make them think Trump was insulting his dead son, rather than pointing out a significant problem of corruption. And the fact that you are carrying water for them shows just how partisan you have become.

    8. “…My favorite part was when Joe Biden brought up his son who served honorably in the military, and who died a tragic death,..”

      Oh, wave that flag, Jeff! Wrap yourself in it!
      Make an ass of yourself, again!

    9. What should any of us think about someone who says, in effect, “I suffered the loss of a son, so I should be president”? Especially when he’s helping his living son benefit by corruption thru the family connection?

      1. To be fair, Biden didn’t say that. Here’s what he said:

        “And with regard to more divided the nation, it can’t stay divided. We can’t be this way. And speaking of my son, the way you talk about the military, the way you talk about them being losers and being and just being suckers. My son was in Iraq. He spent a year there. He got the Brown Star. He got the Conspicuous Service Medal. He was not a loser. He was a Patriot and the people left behind there were heroes.”

        So, he “wrapped himself in the flag”, but he didn’t say “so I should be president” because his son was a veteran.

        1. No, he just implied his corruption should be excused

    10. And how did his other son, who got a prime gig in the Navy Reserve, do in the military? You know the one they were talking about prior to the attempted deflection?

    11. “Trump acted like he had never even heard of Beau Biden”

      It’s possible it wasn’t acting.

      1. why should he? He’s a nobody.

        1. Preparation for facing an opponent. Trump looked a little dumb for not knowing a basic fact about Biden’s family.

          Basic decency of being familiar with a tragedy that happened in Biden’s family.

  26. I felt both were abysmal, but that Trump did worse than Biden. I haven’t voted for a major party candidate since 2004, and was strongly leaning towards voting for Trump. I like his deregulatory efforts, his tax reform was good, and I think he’s making progress towards extricating us from the middle east. I live in Washington state so it’s an academic choice, but now I’m not feeling so sure.

    Last night Trump to me came off as wildly exaggerating and excessively rude. I think this was a tactic, trying to get Biden to lash out angrily, and he almost got him but didn’t. They both told some big lies. I thought Trump left a lot of hits on the table — I don’t know why Trump couldn’t say “white supremacist or antifa, no one should initiate violence. Americans, please stay peaceful”. Trump should have called out Biden for saying they got renewable energy to the same price as fossil, in actuality it’s about 4 times more expensive per KwH. I need coffee and can’t remember everything I was thinking last night, but in general I had expected Trump to be more coherent than he was, and I expected Biden to be more feeble and absent minded than he appeared.

    1. “I expected Biden to be more feeble and absent minded than he appeared”

      I didn’t watch, but with all the low expectations on Biden, putting a sentence together would be a pleasant surprise for viewers, if they weren’t turned off by what was in those sentences, that is.

      1. That was the problem with the right’s strategy of portraying Biden as senile. He barely passed that low bar last night, probably because Trump didn’t really even give him a chance to look bad. Biden stumbled over words and numbers (especially) several times, but nobody will remember that because of Trump’s performance.

        It shouldn’t be surprising that Trump made this all about him, but basically all he had to do was let Biden speak and he couldn’t even do that.

        1. The trouble with letting Biden speak is that his content consists of nothing but platitudes and conclusory accusations unless he’s pressed on points. Those voters who’d catch the vapidity of Biden’s statements don’t need to be convinced, they’ve already made up their minds; in some states they may even have voted already. The only voters left to be convinced could be convinced only by hearing Biden’s responses to Trump’s pressure.

          1. The only voters left to be convinced could be convinced only by hearing Biden’s responses to Trump’s pressure.

            Agreed, but at some point you have to let Biden’s responses be heard. His vapidity gets lost in the jumble of Trump constantly interrupting him.

            Anyway, I’m waiting for the meme of Trump and Biden on the movie poster for Grumpy Old Men. That’s what it felt like watching it last night.

            1. meme of Trump and Biden on the movie poster for Grumpy Old Men

              The Bee has got you covered:

              Broadcast Signal Accidentally Picks Up Two Old Men Yelling At Each Other Instead Of Presidential Debate

            2. Especially, if Biden is starting a sentence where he is about to recite some statistic or other factual information. If you are sure he is going senile, don’t interrupt him…

        2. 100 million of us have preexisting conditions, I learned.

        3. That’s right. Every time it looked like Biden might be losing his train of thought, Trump rescued him by talking over him.

          1. So, a nice guy?

    2. So you didn’t like Trump’s debating style, but you wouldn’t decide your vote on that point. How many people do you think would? And which states do they vote in?

      1. The key point was that Trump brought back Big 10 football. Which helps with all the Midwest swing states.

    3. I like his deregulatory efforts, his tax reform was good, and I think he’s making progress towards extricating us from the middle east.

      Which of these changed last night?

      I don’t know why Trump couldn’t say “white supremacist or antifa, no one should initiate violence. Americans, please stay peaceful”.

      He has done so many times. He’s tired of the lie about Charlottesville.

  27. After that dumpster fire of a debate, the Biden campaign may be looking at a harsh reality–what if, after last night, Kamala Harris is more likable than Joe Biden?

    And no, Harris is not likable.

    “Just 4 percent of likely voters polled said they found Warren “likable,” and 5 percent said the same about Harris.”

    It isn’t just that Kamala Harris comes across as a calculating, elitist, ice princess to so many average working Americans. It’s also that the primary role of a Vice Presidential candidate is usually to be the ticket’s attack dog. What if the job of being likable falls on her unlikable shoulders?

    As a member of the Senate judiciary committee, Kamala Harris was supposed to lead the charge against the Amy Coney Barrett nomination. If Mumbly Joe is now coming across as mean-spirited, the last thing his campaign probably needs is Kamala Harris insinuating awful things–like that Amy Coney Barret is a racist for adopting Haitian orphans.

    How many Haitian babies has Kamala Harris adopted anyway?


    Chris Wallace’s Impartiality Questioned Due To His Giant Foam Finger Reading ‘Biden 2020’

    1. Bee writers are brilliant.

  29. “I want to turn immigration back to the way it was before we closed our borders in the 1920s,” says Jorgensen.

    Does Jorgensen actually realize that immigration wasn’t a free-for-all prior to the Emergency Quota Act or 1924 Immigration Act, right?

    1. Before the progressive era when the government actually followed the Constitution, there were no immigration laws. Obviously, this is because Article I gives Congress no such authority.

      1. There were laws limiting who could immigrate to the US going back to 1875 with the Page Act. It certainly didn’t start in the Progressive Era.

        The idea that the US was some sort of nonregulatory free-for-all until the 20th century is one of the most ahistorical narratives ever proffered.

        And anyone thinking any complex society isn’t going to start figuring out who can enter the country and who can’t, once it reaches a certain stage of development is, to be quite honest, a utopian ignoramus.

        1. The Chinese Exclusion Acts were definitely suspect but they were not the central micromanagement of immigration that we have had since the 20s. Despite these mild exceptions, it is hard to call pre-20s America anything but open-borders.

    2. It’s a long swim from the gulf of Mexico to Ellis Island.


    The reason the establishment doesn’t care to hide the iron fist anymore is they’ve bet the farm. They’re all in.
    2:58 PM · Sep 29, 2020·Twitter for Android
    Quote Tweets
    Replying to
    This makes them extraordinarily vulnerable to any challenge they can’t suppress with groupthink, like a new pandemic, foreign policy crisis, economic meltdown or disaster.
    They are not in control but they think they are.

  31. This is absolutely correct

    You either denounce critical race theory or you’re a fucking racist.

  32. Very disappointing to see little mention of economic freedom in Jorgenson’s bullet points. The thing about the FDA and tariffs are kinda related to economic freedon but indirectly. Or maybe that was ENB’s doing and Jo actually did talk about it. I need to watch it still.

  33. “That was a shitshow,” CNN’s Dana Bash told viewers last night

    Not fake news!

  34. R.I.P., Helen Reddy and Mac Davis, both 78

    1. Is that one also from the Bee?

      1. Alas, no.

        1. dang. hear me roar AND a little less conversation a little more action, please.

          1. “Lord it’s Hard to be Humble”

            Top ten song ever

            1. yes! can’t wait to look in the mirror ’cause I get better lookin’ each day.

  35. Pardon people in federal prison for “victimless crimes”—including whistleblowers Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning and Silk Road creator Ross Ulbricht. “If there is no victim, there is no crime,” Jorgensen says

    Edward Snowden – Yes
    Ross Ulbricht – Hell Yes
    Chelsea Manning – FUCK NO.

    1. I’m telling you: Jo doesn’t know how to pander effectively. She’s not a professional politician, and pandering well requires one.

      She gets the idea that something sounds cool, and lots of the right people are talking about it on social media, so I should be for it. But she doesn’t look at things in depth enough to realize that, e.g., “Anti-racism” is Marxist ideology, created by Marxists, and it’s meant to divide. Or that Manning was a butthurt PFC who gleefully broke any of the Army’s regulations for handling classified material, because of personal pique.

      1. Oh, fuck, maybe Bradley was butthurt, but he exposed blatant Bush-era war crimes, and Chelsea was punished severely by Obama-era show-trial tribunals for doing so. Chelsea still has a big set of whistle-blower balls.

        1. War crimes. Uh-huh. The bar for whistleblowing gets lower and lower every day, so long as the US can be smeared by doing so. We can discuss the Apache strike if you like, or any of the other incidents that you think are violations of the Law of Land Combat or any related treaties the US is party too.

          Manning indiscriminately divulged sources and methods, causing God only knows how many people to be placed in danger. All because some sick young man, who should never have been in the military to begin with, decided to break their voluntary oath and have their ego fluffed by divulging information entrusted with them, to some foreign muckraker. Awesome job, Bradley. Fuck that guy.

          You want to talk about Snowden, I’m listening. But Manning is a confused little shitbag, who deserves to rot in Federal prisonl

  36. There were no winners in the debate last night, but very definitely, there were huge losers.

    BIGGEST LOSER: Chris Wallace…The man completely lost control of the debate. His only job was to moderate and he singularly failed at that task. His questions were filled with questionable premises, and took too god-damned long to ask.

    NEXT BIGGEST LOSER: The American people…I happen to work for ‘BigCorp’ that has satellite offices in 100+ countries. When I got online early this morning, I had dozens of emails from colleagues around the world all asking a polite version of: What the fuck was up with that?!

    NEXT NEXT BIGGEST LOSER: Brain-Damaged Biden….There are now going to be pointed questions asked about his taxation plan, his green sorta newish deal, his role in the transition back in 2016, and ‘Hunter’. He cannot escape that now.

    DEBATE VERDICT: Draw…POTUS Trump was well…himself. What else can I say? Brash, obnoxious – the typical New Yorker. 🙂 Sleepy Joe got the draw by simply not soiling his Depends and not drooling on national TV.

    1. I’d say your anayilsis is spot on

    2. To control these two, you’d have to turn the mics on and off depending on whose turn it is, and that won’t happen.

      1. the next debate should feature two isolation booths

      2. They had better rig that up for the remaining debates, or they might as well cancel them.

    3. I gotta disagree. Two things needed to happen tonight if you were a Biden fan. 1) Biden needed to appear coherent. 2) The media needed to set the boundaries of “newsworthy” in this election.

      For number 1, Biden showed up, didn’t drool, didn’t stroke out. He did everything he needed to in order to allay the fears of his competence that has been circling the fringes.

      For number 2, starting the debates with Chris Wallace was a master stroke for the Media Complex. This was Fox News, and they did not ask Biden about Hunter, about his stance on Antifa and many of the other things that Trump *tries* to make news. For the mushy middle american who “knows” Fox is to the right, MSNBC to the Left, and CNN down the middle, this essentially gave cover for the rest of media to ignore Biden’s corrupt past, and all the things Trump tries to pin on him.

      I think you are deluding yourself when you say there will be pointed questions. Wallace was a trojan horse. He is Fox News, but he also is a Never Trumper. He did more to set the tone of the rest of this campaign than any other person out there. The media now has cover to ignore every thing that could make Biden look bad.

      1. Wallace dropped the ball.
        He was very obvious in his partisanship, and the subject is now what a shitty job he did.

      2. Both of these analysis are spot on.

        Wallace ran cover on Antifa and Hunter. On both issues he insisted that they were not going to discuss it. He even interrupted Biden as he was about to explain how Antifa is no threat and has not been involved in any riots.

        Biden did enough to give the media clips they could play to spin it as “Trump trashed the debate and the campaign”, which is what they are doing. Biden did not do enough to give them a “Biden won” clip they could play… so they went with the consolation prize narrative.

        That is a win for Biden. His job is to not disqualify himself.

        Now, having participated in using the FBI, CIA, DOJ and NSA against political opponents and having participated actively in the malicious prosecution of Flynn should have disqualified him. So should the corruption in Ukraine that he actually bragged about in public. We used to be a country that disqualified leaders for small corruptions like having an affair or taking a perfectly legal book deal. But apparently that ship has sailed. Now we run cover for actual “I corrupted the government to go after my political enemies” corruption that would make Nixon blush.

      3. Overt…If you think companies are just going to let go an increase in the corporate tax rate from 21% to 28% (which is a 33% increase) just go unaddressed, then I want what you’re smoking. I guarantee you that there will be questions. Wall Street has questions.

        Then there is the matter of payments from Burisma, the Moscow Mayor’s widow, and China (via Rosemont Seneca Partners) to Hunter Biden. Tough to refute documentary evidence. More will be coming out, I am sure.

        I don’t think the media will be able to ignore it. Because we have two more debates, and it is a certainty that POTUS Trump will bring up the topic.

    4. This was definitely not Trump’s best performance, at all. There were two or three moments when Sleepy Joe was bumbling and stumbling and in the process of making a fool out of himself where Trump would have been far better served just keeping quiet, and instead he interrupted and therefore let Sleepy off the hook. Knowing when to step back is just as important as knowing when to jab. To most reasonable, fair-minded people, he likely came off as overly desperate. And as any normal woman will tell you, desperation is one of the biggest turn-offs there is.

      But you’re 100% right about Chris Wallechinsky (aka “Wallace”). What a fucking assclown. Not one question about deficits or the national debt, instead he wastes time on bullshit like Trump’s 2017 income taxes and the “Proud Boys’, a group nobody gives a fuck about.

      1. Good point. I mean, if you don’t give a fuck about those things then nobody does. Or at least nobody who matters (as in Democrats).

        1. Sarcasmic cares about government not getting its taxes. Hmm..

      2. “Chris Wallechinsky (aka “Wallace”)”

        I was, like, really? So, I looked it up. You’re thinking of David Wallace, whoever that is.

      3. I give a fuck about the Proud Boys, and would welcome someone who has influence with them (i.e. Trump) making a clear statement that they should “stand down”.

        1. Oh, and I better add, before I’m accused of being a leftist:

          I would welcome Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, and Black Lives Matter leaders all issuing clear statements denouncing violence from antifa, rioters carrying “Black Lives Matter” signs and wearing “Black Lives Matter” shirts, etc. And Biden issuing a clear statement that he believes antifa is more than just an idea, and that anyone who self-identifies as “antifa” should “stand down”.

  37. Sup Peanuts? Still simmering from the absolute beatdown Biden laid onto your baby boy? The Tangerine Retard looked like a giant oompa loompa caught with his tiny dong in the cookie jar. Oops! I know it’s hard for you losers to accept defeat, but come November, you’ll just have to lay back and take it… Kind of like how you’ve been laying back and letting the Nectarine Rapist peg you with a dry, oversized dildo the past 4 years.
    Ah, victory never tasted so good. Have a fine day gentlemen!

    1. You think one side beat the other last night? You’re an idiot.

      1. Um yes, specifically Biden the heavyweight champ, absolutely raped Trump the racist Orange tiny-dicked low-IQ whore-marrying drama queen of any sense of self-dignity. It was embarrassing for him in every single way. How he didn’t shoot himself right then and there on stage is beyond me.
        Biden came off dignified, intelligent and presidential, as usual. I’m surprised you even had the willpower to get out of bed this morning and comment here after such a pathetic showing from Dear Leader.

        1. Oh come on! Trump’s dick is uuuuuuuuuge!

        2. Stupid and delusional.

          1. Ah, your tears are delicious. Don’t get any on your precious engineering degrees!

            1. My degrees and licenses are safely behind glass, hanging on my office wall.

              Try not to drool on your GED.

              1. Wow, okay settle down bud. Take the flaming rod out of your anus and try to take a joke for once in your life. Having a sense of humor is good for you, you know. Helps you live longer, meet more girls, have better sex. Assuming you haven’t castrated yourself as an offering to Dear Leader, that is.

                1. Having a sense of humor is good for you, you know. Helps you live longer, meet more girls, have better sex

                  But enough about your habit of trolling for dates on the elementary school playground near your mobile home.

                  1. Virgins like yourself have a hard time admitting their own shortcomings.

                    1. Speaking from experience?

      2. I think side NOTA clearly scored a victory last night.

        1. NOTA is the only sane choice, but that’s been obvious for a while now. Last night just made it even more so.

          1. Are you talking about the Northeast Ohio Translator’s Association? I’m sure they were put through their paces last night trying to translate whatever the fuck the Orange Clown was attempting (and failing) to articulate.

          2. Well it’s been obvious to libertarians for a while now. I’m hoping that this election broadens the base for the appeal of NOTA. All indications from last night are yes.

            1. Let’s see if you have any ability to think beyond dogma and superficial platitudes.

              What do you think happens if the left wins?

              1. I’m not sure who “the left” are, but if Biden wins we get another Obama-like presidency. Biden is pretty milquetoast and I don’t expect any radical, sweeping changes. He’s not the radical that Sanders or Warren are for sure. At the end of the day, for all of Obama’s issues (and he certainly had many) he was pretty moderate compared to Sanders or Warren. I would expect more of the same from Biden.

                From a pure policy standpoint, I’d prefer Trump wins of the two. He’s significantly better on foreign policy.

                Although I don’t like where he seems to be taking the GOP. Big spending, executive overreach, anti-free trade, etc. If it takes a loss at the polls for the GOP to get closer to where the TEA Party was heading on fiscal issues then I’d say that’s a net positive for the country long-term. Otherwise there is no alternative to big government. You either get Trump’s version of big government or the left’s version of bigger government.

                1. “You either get Trump’s version of big government or the left’s version of bigger government.”

                  Giant Douche or Turd Sandwich.

                2. As expected.
                  You’re in denial.
                  Green new deal, lockdowns, mask mandates, forced equity, court packing, political violence, and re-education based on critical theory.
                  What did I miss?
                  So milquetoast they’ll burn it all down if we don’t submit to all of the above…

                  1. Let’s see if you have any ability to think beyond dogma and superficial platitudes.

                    As expected.
                    You’re in denial.

                    I thought you were expecting superficial platitudes and dogma… not denial?

                  2. The alternative is what? Massive debt, travel bans, trade wars, cop-sucking, inaction of drug legalization, censorship…

                    He’s definitely less bad, but he certainly ain’t better.

                    1. Less bad =better.

                3. Well said.

                4. You think Biden makes it through 4 years as President?

                  Your analysis needs to include the idea that Harris will be running the country for at least part of those 4 years. A Harris presidency is a far more worrisome thing than a Biden presidency.

                  1. Harris is an opportunist, not an ideologue. I wouldn’t be too sure that she would do many sweeping changes either, especially eyeing 2024 in your scenario. I’m not sure why people continually fall into the trap of believing that these politicians will do what they say they will. Especially the opportunists out there. There’s more political capital in not doing things and claiming you will do them in the future than there is for getting stuff done.

                    1. Harris has a long history of being a terrible person and exactly the kind of person who should never be given any authority.

                      I don’t know what specific actions she’d take, but I’m positive based on her history that they would be terrible.

                    2. Certainly as a prosecutor, but what has she really done as a Senator?

                  2. Why wouldn’t you make a similar statement about Trump and Pence, when Trump is only three years younger that Biden, and showing signs of frailty?

                5. I should add that the best possible outcome of any election is a divided government, in my opinion. The best possible outcome would probably be a GOP controlled Congress and a moderate Democrat president. Having things the other way around tends to lead to a lot of spending as the President compromises with Congress and spending goes way up. Refer to the current situation on that one. If the Republicans are useful for anything, it seems to be in the role of opposition party.

                  1. Excess spending is better that outright oppression.

                    1. Leo is straight up ignoring reality, especially 2020, in favor of what he hopes for

    2. Fuck off and die, turd. Painfully.

    3. The hicklib pederast is feeling frisky after consooooooooming his daily kiddie porn intake.

  38. While executing a pirouette, candidate 36 stumbled a bit sticking the landing, and candidate 83 hit a middle C before the voice cracked a bit.

    Not sure if they should advance to the next round, but at least they didn’t preempt my telenovela.

    1. ¿Qué Culpa Tiene Fatmagül?

      A popular Turkish telenovela dubbed and subtitled in Spanish for the US audience.

    2. Yeah, but thing is “America’s Got Talent” and “Star Search” always had more contestants to present. Why just these two from a nation of 300+ million?

  39. Jorgensen: a grab bag of libertarian policies popular with intellectuals, but no principles, leadership, direction, or insights.

    1. So they’ve finally nominated a candidate qualified to hold public office?

    2. no principles, leadership, direction, or insights.

      In other words, no different from any other politician.

    3. Sums it up.

  40. Dow Jones up 1.3% right now, apparently Wall Street thinks Trump did well last night?

    1. they think Trump will agree to a stimulus deal since he didn’t score a knockout in the debate

    2. The market moves today aren’t about the debates. There are some good things happening in the economy, generally (your real estate agent probably doesn’t have time to return your calls right away), but a lot of it is froth and investors all chasing the same growth stock. The put it in stocks like Amazon because they’re afraid to put it anywhere else.

      Disney is laying off 23,000 workers at its theme parks, and the airline industry is looking at laying off another 30,000 on Thursday if they don’t get bailed out. In fact, stocks might actually go up if the Democrats win the Senate because it means there will be bailouts and spending galore come 2021. What’s good for Wall Street isn’t always good for Main Street–see TARP for examples.

  41. >>put moderator and Fox News anchor Chris Wallace through the wringer

    *that* I would watch. whatever the wringer is.

  42. Fucking Reason, trying to play the middle ground. Trump obviously won the debate because he’s a Republican and Biden is a Democrat. Don’t even need to watch the debate to know who won. All you need to know is the letter after the person’s name.

    1. Biden looked pathetic. Trump was angry. It was a normal day.

    2. If that is the best you can come up with, why bother posting? Medicated sarcasmic is a whiny little bitch. You need the mania to make it effective.

      1. In the past I’ve lost friends on almost every election cycle because they would, like you, become angry, hostile, confrontational, obtuse, and otherwise asinine the closer it got to November. And the fact that I really don’t give a fuck made them even more angry. Why don’t I give a fuck? Because my vote doesn’t matter, and since I have absolutely no control or input into the outcome of the election, what does getting worked up about it solve? Nothing. Nothing at all.

        So keep it up. Please. I hope you and John both die of a stroke.

        1. You act like a comete asshole and then tell everyone else it’s their fault.
          Your misery makes sense.

          1. LMAO! The only miserable people I see are you and the others who get all worked up about this bullshit. I’m quite content and happy now that I stopped surrounding myself with idiots who get emotional about politics. Or worse people like you who get violent.

            1. Lol says the guy who only comes here to emote and elicit negative reactions from other people. And if you’ve really lost that many friends over politics, that says just as much about you as it does about them.

              1. I don’t come here to emote. I come here to mock emote. I don’t expect you to get that since it would destroy your world view that includes me being an emotional leftist. It would bend your brain to think I’m a detached libertarian. Nope. You gotta believe I’m like five socks and I’m losing my mind. Have fun with that. I especially hope you die of a stroke as well. The world is a safer place without people like you who advocate for murdering people who disagree with your politics.

                1. ?
                  I think you’re responding to the wrong person or you are seriously delusional, because I’ve never once in 5 years on this board advocated the murder of anyone.

                  1. My apologies. I thought you were Nardz. He openly supports murder.

                    1. No worries, but honestly if you can’t see that your little catfights with everyone are entirely self-imposed then idk what else to say.
                      Nowadays you really do come here to cause trouble and you haven’t always been this way. Idk what happened to you, but forreal you used to be cool here and now every time you post it’s usually to start some shit and it’s tiresome imo, but whatever, you do you. Just don’t complain when people call you on it.

                    2. And no, Nardz doesn’t openly support murder.

                    3. Nardz has openly supported murder on more than one occasion.

                      What changed was that libertarians vacated the place and were replaced by conservatives who have no use for liberty. So I changed my shtick from mocking liberals to mocking conservatives. That makes me uncool because the cool kids are conservatives. There might be three or four libertarians left, and none of us are welcome. As long as the conservatives pile on the hatred, then I know I’m hitting a nerve. So fuck it.

                    4. sarcasmic
                      September.30.2020 at 12:12 pm

                      So keep it up. Please. I hope you and John both die of a stroke

                    5. Actually, Nardz has.

                    6. Seems you’re unable to distinguish between support for murder and the necessity for violence on occasion.
                      Sure, sometimes the line is blurry.
                      But you’ll interpret it as you wish, which is ultimately what this is all about – you never taking responsibility for being an asshole.

                      As an aside, I’ve heard about some discussion involving running people through woodchippers that used to take place here.
                      Double standards are such fun.

                    7. And yes, I’m ok with the prospect certain people being killed.
                      So be it.

                    8. “Sure, sometimes the line is blurry.”

                      Not really, if you’re a libertarian who subscribes to the NAP.

                      But you’re not a libertarian. You long to initiate aggressive violence and death upon your political enemies.

                      At least you’re honest about it.

                    9. You know the wood chipper comments were in jest, right?

                    10. Hahaha sarcasmic is so broken he doesn’t even know who he’s crying to!

        2. I don’t come here to emote. I come here to mock emote.

          Really? That is what you call that tripe above? I was sincere when I said I used to find you funny. Like SPB without the revolting bile. A whet stone for poor libertarian arguments.

          Now? Not so much. [sad face emoji]

          1. People found me funny because I was making fun of liberals, and libertarians tend to lean to the right. Now that I’m making fun of conservatives most people here don’t find me funny anymore, just as the liberals didn’t find me funny when I made fun of them. It’s all a matter of perspective.

  43. “That was a hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a train wreck. That was the worst debate I have ever seen.”

    God help me I agree with Jake Tapper about something. The end must be nigh. I only made it through the first 20 minutes or so before I switched over to South Park re-runs. It was clear that it was pointless to watch any more. I couldn’t tell who was saying what most of the time because they were all talking over each other, including the “moderator.” It was like two old men yelling at clouds at the same time. They should replace the next two debates with Trump vs Biden geriatric kick boxing or MMA matches. It would probably be more entertaining at least.

    1. I might actually watch SNL this weekend. Should be epic. Jim Carrey (hopefully in Firemarshall Bill costume) supposedly playing Biden.

      1. It is an opportunity for comedy gold. While I never held with any of their personal opinions both Carrey and Baldwin do have some comedy chops and acting skills. They are pathetic assholes IRL.

        1. Don’t count on SNL for real political humor.

          They “parodied” Obama as the wise and almost holy genius who was beset by evil and stupid enemies who were too dumb to actually be allowed to live, but Obama graciously didn’t kill them with a mighty blow of his holy hand.

          Their response to the election was to have HRC sing a lament of Hallelujah.

          They don’t do “political humor”. They do “let’s try to belittle those stupid people”. Because of this, even the good character performances are ruined by bad writing.

    2. I couldn’t tell who was saying what most of the time because they were all talking over each other, including the “moderator.”

      I think it’s great. Most people won’t get the implication because they’ve deluded themselves into believing that they’re “moderates,” but if I wanted to show the utter stupidity of the idea of direct democracy in the modern age, that debate is exactly how I would set it up.

      It showed that the two major parties can literally put up anyone they wish as a candidate, and that person will still get 45% of the vote no matter what, simply because of the party they represent. It’s a damning indictment of the pretension that “the people” as a body politic are anything other than absolutely useless.

      1. Yep, and while Trump acted like the rabid baboon as expected, Biden barely responded at all and had all the charisma of a potato sack. Of course, that won’t matter to either if their followers, especially Biden’s who are voting for him only as a place holder for Kamala.

  44. Nope it wasn’t a debate in any sense, and Trump did his usual angry dominant chimp act. Biden was a deer caught in the headlights who had very little specific ideas just retorts and that fucking weird camera stare. I think Trump laid it on a little thick but after 4 years of getting shit on by the media and the left I would have punched Biden out too. KO for Trump, but won’t change any minds.

    1. It could’ve possibly, remote as it was, been a debate if Wallace didn’t constantly and actively work to prevent one from breaking out.

      1. Trump’s behavior last night was Chris Wallace’s fault? If Trump is this master with dealing with a biased media, it’s going to be hard to convince anyone that he could be bested by someone from Fox News. Chris Wallace of all people.

        Isn’t the simpler explanation that Trump is in fact a bloviating, narcissistic troll?

  45. OK, ENB, here’s one for you to defend. You repeated the number 1 talking point… “he refused to condemn white nationalists”

    First, what possible justification is there for even asking that question. There are absolutely zero white nationalists anywhere on the national stage, despite 5 years of desperate baiting to draw them out. We have had months of riots by communist groups BLM and Antifa. There have been no riots by any sort of alt-right groups, let alone by “white nationalists”.

    So why would anyone ask the President to condemn them? Why is that a legitimate question? What possible predicate is there for that question?

    Second, he was not asked to condemn white nationalists. He was asked to tell “his supporters” in groups like “proud boys” not to add to the violence. Your ire should be directed at the question. Again, we have months of actual riots by actual anarcho-communists. And the question is not directed at the left, but at Trump. And it is not “will you do whatever is in your power to stop this violence by BLM/Antifa and sympathizers?” It is “Will you tell people who are not the ones rioting that they are not to engage in riots?” That’s even dumber than “Have you stopped beating your wife yet”. Again, no predicate…. it is just an accusation without foundation phrased as a question.

    The second question was about after the election. Paraphrasing:
    “After you lose the election, will you call for your supporters to stand down and not riot, even if there are weeks of suspicious activities by Democrat officials bringing in more and more suddenly ‘found’ ballots?” His answer was “Stand down and stand by”…. rejecting the premise and calling for republican poll watchers to volunteer to help keep an eye on the election. So pretty much exactly the opposite of your (copied) spin on the question and answer.

    So, ENB, you have a pen and a website.

    Let’s here the brilliant justification for calling on Trump to tell people who are not rioting and have not remotely threatened riots that they are condemned and should not be violent in the street. And let’s here your genius analysis of why in the world Biden should not have been called to answer for his party, which is actively supporting and defending riots that are actually happening now and have been taking place for months. Why should Biden not have been called to answer for his party, which has been actively threatening to “Burn it down”, not if he has the election stolen, but if Trump does his constitutional duty and appoints a supreme court justice?

    Is there even an ounce of intellectual honesty left in the reason staff? Robby is the only active voice that seems willing to acknowledge that there exists a reality that is not constructed out of DNC talking points. That dude hates Trump (which is perfectly reasonable), but at least he can acknowledge that the counter-narrative is bollocks.

    1. I agree with you that the question is bullshit, being largely irrelevant to the scope of the national politics. But it is still worth mentioning that Trump’s answer to the question was far from acceptable.

        1. Trump should have left no doubt in rebuking white supremacy when the question was asked. It was a softball question and he whiffed several times. Forget about the Proud Boys. That didn’t come up until after Trump bumbled over an obvious answer.

          1. At this point, it probably doesn’t matter. Biden’s handlers just massively fucked up and sent out a tweet that called Kyle Rittenhouse a white supremacist–despite the fact that even the ADL confirmed that they couldn’t find anything that indicated as such.

            When “white supremacist” = “someone who doesn’t parrot burn down cities or parrot radical left mantras”, the term no longer has any meaning.

            1. They learned nothing from Nick Sandmann apparently.

              I hope Rittenhouse sues the ever loving shit out of them for slander. And whatever he can get them on for tainting the jury pool in whatever criminal case he might end up facing.

              1. Lin Wood already said he’s going after them.

        2. When you are given a simple yes/no question it is best to keep the answer simple. He was presented with a question that required no explanation, just like the question last week about whether he would commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he lost the election. These questions should be answered with a simple, unequivocal “yes” and move on. But instead he deflected to talk about unrelated issues as if he has something to hide.

          1. Yeah, go back and listen to the question again. It is not a yes/no question, any more than “Hey, Blargrifth, do you pledge to stop beggaring preschool children?”

            It is an entirely false premise. It is entirely designed to leave a false impression no matter how it is answered.

            Blargrifth answers “Yes, I absolutely condemn all who beggar preschool children” What impression does that leave?

            Trump says “Yes, I too am worried about my white supremacist followers being violent (despite absolutely zero evidence of any such thing – either white supremacists or violence)”.

            What impression is left?

            Your notion that condemning white supremacist violence would satisfy the question is naive.

            Remember – Charlottesville was a protest by a bunch of locals who did not want monument avenue destroyed. Antifa showed up and violently attacked them as city officials forced them to leave their permitted location in a park. Later some racist types showed up in response to the antifa stuff.

            Trump explicitly condemned racists and neo-nazis. He explicitly condemned violence. Then he said – of the people protesting and counterprotesting about monument avenue – “There are good people on both sides”.

            And the media and democrats lied. And lied. And lied. So much so that even conservative types like Ben Shapiro repeat the lie.

            You cannot answer a dishonest question like that in any way that is satisfactory.

            1. I do agree with you that the question was inappropriate. No good faith debate should ever assume one of the participants as supportive of white supremacy.

              I don’t agree that there is no good way to answer such a question though. Trump could have taken a better approach than equivocating and deflecting to Antifa (regardless of to what degree a problem with Antifa may exist they were not relevant to the question). You may be right that some people would still look for reasons to complain, but that is no reason to give your opponents more ammo.

              To be clear, I see nothing wrong with your hypothetical. If I was asked such a question about preschool children, I sure would be confused, but I would likely answer it in the way that you hypothesized.

          2. For those who are having a hard time figuring it out….

            Would it be legitimate to ask LeBron James if he would call on all people who have knowledge of his illegal use of performance enhancing drugs to come forward, releasing them from any and all non disclosure agreements?

            Now, you have absolutely no information that there is any truth to that at all. But you are just asking questions, after all.

            So LeBron denies it. Headlines tomorrow read “LeBron denies allegations of PED use!!”

            LeBron says “what are you talking about? I don’t use PEDs”

            Tomorrow’s headline “LeBron refuses to release his trainers from secrecy agreements protecting PED use!”

            That’s a loose analogy to this line of questioning. Just like asking Trump if he would accept the results of the election in 2016. It was a dishonest question that they thought would plant the notion that he was going to lose and was going to be a sore loser. It is illegitimate, and any rational human being knows it.

      1. Can you even imagine an acceptable answer?

        “I call on my white supremacist followers to refrain from all violence!”

        It is a stupid premise. Pretending that it deserved a serious answer is stupid.

    2. Is there even an ounce of intellectual honesty left in the reason staff?
      Answer: Nope

    3. You are going to keep pushing the canard that the Proud Boys and Boogaloo aren’t right-wing.

      1. I don’t think anyone has disputed that Proud Boys are right wing. It has become clear that pride in and promotion of western enlightenment values is exclusively right wing these days.

        Boogaloos, on the other hand, aren’t a topic anymore since they kept showing up at riots allied with blmantifa.
        But do tell us what beliefs qualify Boogaloos as right wing.

        1. Several comments have been posted here in the last 24 hours claiming Proud Boys are not right wing.

      2. The premise was that the Proud Boys are a white supremacist group. I looked them up and their leader is very… Brown. (I think we have to capitalized these nowadays).

  46. Hear. Jeez google.

  47. Kudos to Elizabeth Nolan Brown who did a wonderful and insightful interview of Jo Jorgensen. Instead of the Republcrat/Demlican $#%! show, I watched the interview instead. I would only have watched the debate if Jo Jorgensen was also invited to make it worth my while.

    I already know enough about the two old geezers to know that I detest both of them and can’t under any circumstance cast my vote for either of the two of them. I’m quite comfortable with Jo Jorgensen to vote for her and Spike Cohen.

    1. This, times 1,000…. except the “comfortable with Jo” part. She’s pretty squishy for a libertarian. I’m beginning to suspect that she’s no true Scotsman.

      1. The choice for our future is binary: totalitarian marxism or not totalitarian marxism.
        The only option for not totalitarian marxism is Trump.
        It is what it is.

        1. Giant Douche vs Turd Sandwich.

          Except the giant douce is filled with 1 molal hydroflouric acid.

          ….. screw it.. gimme the stupid sandwich….

    2. For the record, it’s disappointing that ENB has to get a sit-down with Jo before she’ll write anything substantive about her candidacy. Unless I missed it. I read the round-ups nearly every day and there is very little Jo news. Heck, very little Jo news on Reason compared to the anti-Trump hit pieces we get every day.

      If Libertarian site won’t promote Libertarian candidate, who will?

      1. Seriously. We should have someone on the LP candidate beat, writing at least 3 times per week on the topic.

        1. Article headline: as-dumpster-fire-debate-rages-jorgensen-quietly-presents-an-alternative

          Perhaps Jo Jorgensen is quietly an alternative because Reason is quiet about promoting her!?! There have been a few articles, but definitely not the consistent promotion I expect from a Libertarian website. At least ENB keeps me appraised of Matt Yglesias’ radical, far left dribble on a weekly basis.

    3. Additional thought for ENB – maybe instead of quoting Matt Yglesias and/or Vox weekly, you could get Libertarian Presidential nominee’s twitter quotes regularly. Because none of your actual Libertarian readers give 2 fucks what Yglesias or Vox has to say or think.

      *Well, maybe Tony or Jeffy. But they’re not Libertarians…so…

  48. • Trump Pushed To Condemn White Nationalist Proud Boys

    This “white nationalist” narrative is such bullshit. I’m not a Proud Boy and don’t care for them but they are being smeared constantly, and falsely.

    FROM THEIR WEBSITE “who are the proud boys” page:

    “Proud Boys‘ values center on the following tenets:

    Minimal Government
    Maximum Freedom
    Anti-Political Correctness
    Anti-Drug War
    Closed Borders
    Anti-Racial Guilt
    Pro-Free Speech (1st Amendment)
    Pro-Gun Rights (2nd Amendment)
    Glorifying the Entrepreneur
    Venerating the Housewife
    Reinstating a Spirit of Western Chauvinism”

    NOTHING about white, white nationalism, white supremacy. NOTHING

  49. Presidential debates are pretty much the same thing as a rap battle, only for white people who like to think they are informed or something.

    1. Well rap battles have rules. Each player gets a turn.

      This was nothing like that. There were no rules.

      It was like listening to Manowar and Motörhead playing different songs at the same time.

      Turned to 11.

  50. “Let’s get out and vote.
    Let’s make our voices heard.
    We’ve been given the right to choose between a douche and a turd”

  51. Yes, I’m sure Jorgensen has a real chance. BTW, I saw the moon last night. It’s made of green cheese you know.

    1. Probably not a chance of winning, but she could move the Libertarian party forward as a valid alternative. If you cannot break 5 or 10 percent against these two idiots, that is quite the indictment.

      1. Get ready for the indictment then. Lol

  52. Question for the non-trolls: Could Jo Jergensen legally buy ad time during the debate and give a political message? Or does that break any campaign laws?

    Imagine if she had any cash in the coffers and, since she’s not invited to the debate, simply buy some ad time.

    Jo: “America, are you tired to senile old men ruining our country? Tired of this shitshow? Do you want a sane person as your President? I’m Jo Jergensen and I’m running for President!”

    Run a bullet point list of Libertarian positions in the back group and end with the URL for her website. Seriously, this isn’t fucking rocket science. If you cannot break 10% against Trump/Biden, they should just stop trying.

    1. Sure, but does the party even have the kind of scratch to buy ad time during the debates? Even if they aren’t being watched, getting ad time on a major network isn’t cheap.

      1. No doubt ads during debate are expensive. Not sure what their cash flow looks like. But if you have to spend it, during the debate seems like a good time to get the attention of voters.

        1. It is not there. They do not have the money.

          Jo Jo has a bus. That is it. She gets a little press coverage. She is working hard and doing a great job.

          None of us think she can win the election. The idea is to keep the candle burning and get the message out.

          Government is out of control. People know that. There is another way of looking at it.

          The Republicans and Democrats are not going to give it to you. They will keep taking away from liberty and expanding government power. That much is obvious.

  53. So the Libertarian debate wasn’t a dumpster fire?
    That’s pretty hilarious since you had the candidate who at least left his boot hat at home, spark a joint during your debate. Even though I happen to agree with ending the war on drugs, I don’t want my candidate throwing back a bottle of scotch either.
    Between that, and leaving our allies out to dry when the wolves come calling….none of you idiots ever heard the game Risk, or Dominoes?
    Oh, and let’s not forget about letting the world pour the fuck in across the borders. What could possibly go wrong with your dipshit plan….if you can call it that.
    The Libertarian party, once again, doesn’t have a snowballs chance in Hell of getting to 5 percent.

  54. Both men are incapable of rationally discussing an issue based upon facts; Trump because of his intransigence and Biden because his mind is too far gone. It is ironic that in the private sector, CEOs are generally now retired in their mid 60’s for the most part, as a young nimble mind is needed to keep abreast of the rapidly changing landscape. No corporate board in their right mind would dream of choosing one of these guys, yet here they are running for POTUS.

    1. What the hell would be the point of “discussing issues rationally”? Neither Trump nor Biden are scientists, engineers, or economists. What we want to know is what these people are actually made of, what policies they are likely to pursue, and what confidence we can have in their promises.

      With Trump, we know what we get: we’ve seen it for the past four years. You either like his policies or you don’t. The one thing that’s crystal clear about Trump is that he’s a straight shooter: he does what he promises to do.

      With Biden, it’s becoming increasingly clear that he will go along with packing SCOTUS, the GND, massive tax increases, and critical race theory. If you want to turn the US into that kind of shithole country, vote for Biden.

      1. Trump promised to build a wall and lock Hillary up. Other than that it was pretty much all race baiting all the time. Also that’s what the wall was too.

        Do you know that even pro-Trump focus groups thought he shit the bed in that debate? I have yet to run across a more pro-Trump environment than reason fucking magazine, though I haven’t been on any Nazi websites.

        You people are beyond help. “Straight shooter.” Fucking goddammit you people.

        1. Trump promised to build a wall and lock Hillary up.

          He promised a lot more: fewer wars, deregulation, conservative SCOTUS judges, reducing illegal immigratino, an end to ACA. He delivered or tried to deliver on all of them.

          Other than that it was pretty much all race baiting all the time.

          I agree! Throughout Trump’s presidency, Democrats just couldn’t stop with the race baiting.

          Do you know that even pro-Trump focus groups thought he shit the bed in that debate?

          You know those annoying ads for products that make you hate the product? Why do you think companies run them? Simple: because they work.

          Yeah, focus groups hated the debate. So did I. But that doesn’t tell you anything about the effect of the debate. Among other things, Biden came across as nasty, dishonest, and decrepit.

          I have yet to run across a more pro-Trump environment than reason fucking magazine

          I’m not “pro-Trump”; I can’t stand the man. I am simply reasonably happy with his policies, like I would be with any moderate Republican.

          But awful as Trump is, Biden and Harris are even worse as individuals, and their policies are a disaster.

  55. If national broadcast media won’t give the Libertarian and Green candidates attention, I would like to call on Reason to step up and host a debate between them. Bring in other third parties too. We live in a digital age where many now stream online and Reason seems to have solid digital capabilities. Let’s get Jo, Howie and others on stage together or even virtual. Moderators can be Reason and maybe a couple of outside non-libertarian folks to balance any bias. It is about time to no longer wait for others to open the door.

  56. I haven’t certain in sine why you deserve the appellation, “Reason”. The libertarian party wil never garnish many votes simply because much of their platform is a suicide pact.

    Cut the size of the FBI.

    • Cut military spending … – Yeah, call the boy scouts.

    • Get rid of tariffs. – they are an essential tool in conducting foreign policy. The nation was founded with tariffs as the primary source of revenue. Get rid of income taxes.

    • Expand immigration. “I want to turn immigration back to the way it was before we closed our borders in the 1920s,” says Jorgensen. – Come one, come all, that’s really working out for Europe and the UK.

  57. Another alternative is the meteor (asteroid?) strike days before the election.

    Of course, the surviving media, if any, will explain it was Trump suppressing the vote.

  58. If Trump wasn’t activating the Proud Boys to intimidate voters, someone should tell the Proud Boys.

  59. Stop lying. This is what Trump said:

    I don’t know who the Proud Boys are. I mean, you’ll have to give me a definition, because I really don’t know who they are. I can only say they have to stand down, let law enforcement do their work.

    And while the Proud Boys are right wing and can be aggressive, they are not “white supremacists”, so both Biden and Wallace were lying from the start.

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