Police Abuse

Daniel Prude's Brother Called 911 Because He Was Behaving Erratically. Prude Ended Up Dead.

Another example of how police can respond poorly to drug and mental health calls

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Two months before the death of George Floyd launched a summer of protests, riots, and demands for police reform, officers in Rochester, New York, handcuffed Daniel T. Prude in the middle of the street, put a bag over his head, and pinned the naked man onto the street while he panicked. This continued until Prude stopped breathing. He ultimately died.

The general public is finding out about the incident this week because Prude's family and local activists released police body-camera video of the incident on Wednesday.

According to reporting from the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle and The New York Times, police responded to a 911 call on March 23 from Prude's brother. Prude, who had recently been taken to the hospital for mental health issues, had run out of his home and was behaving erratically.

When Rochester police responded to the call, they found him running in the street. Somebody else had in the meantime called 911 to say that a naked man had tried to break into a car. Police believe he also broke windows at a nearby business. According to the Democrat and Chronicle, Prude encountered several other people during his journey and even begged one to call 911 for him.

The body camera footage shows Prude clearly in a state of distress when the officers confront him. They order Prude to the ground with his hands behind his back, and he complies immediately. He never tries to get physical with them, but his behavior remains erratic: He yells at the officers, he starts spitting, and he claims to have the coronavirus. The officers then put him in what they call a "spit hood." (The Times notes that these hoods have been involved in 70 deaths in the past decade and have been cited in police lawsuits.)

Prude yells "Gimme that gun!" at the officers and demands one officer's Taser. Eventually they press Prude to the ground, pushing his head into the pavement. The time stamps on the video show he was held down for about 3 minutes. An emergency medical technician arrives, but the officers don't mention that Prude isn't moving. Three minutes later, the EMT asks the officers to roll Prude over, and that's when they realize that he's no longer breathing.

After that, Prude was given CPR and loaded into an ambulance. He was actually revived for a time, but he was declared brain dead due to the lack of oxygen. On March 30, he was removed from life support and died.

Here's an edited version of the video from the Democrat and Chronicle:

A subsequent toxicology report showed low levels of PCP in Prude's bloodstream, which could have explained some of his behavior. The autopsy report attributed Prude's death to "complications of asphyxia in the setting of physical restraint due to excited delirium due to acute [PCP] intoxication."

"Excited delirium" is a controversial diagnosis that is not actually recognized by the American Medical Association or the American Psychiatric Association; it seems to occur primarily—perhaps even exclusively—during encounters with law enforcement. (Read more here on the sordid history of the term and its use to justify violent interactions with people in a drug-induced or mental health crisis.)

In the video, one EMT and an officer on the scene affirm to each other that Prude was under the influence of "excited delirium." The EMT assures the officer, "It's not you guys's fault."

None of the officers involved have been disciplined, but the New York attorney general's office is investigating the death. More than 100 protesters gathered Wednesday afternoon in Rochester, and nine were arrested and cited with misdemeanor charges in clashes with police.

Prude's case is a prime example of what policing reform activists mean when they call for hanging the role of policing so that people with guns and Tasers are not the first responders to somebody having a mental health or drug crisis.

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  1. Completely inexcusable. Charge these motherfuckers with manslaughter. “Excited delirium” is garbage science not recognized by the American Medical Association or the American Psychiatric Association.

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    2. >Charge these motherfuckers with manslaughter.

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    4. The cops didn’t kill him, the response is the only inexcusable thing here.

    5. There is a lot of missing information here. People die from panic attacks, they are considered medical emergencies. I can’t see how it’s possible that a spit mask could cause anyone to die. Sounds like a plaintiffs attorneys legal theory to screw taxpayers out of $. Their is no evidence the police did anything wrong. They are cops not paramedics. Next time they call cops for a loony tune call a social worker

  2. Another Black man killed in a Democrat run town. Will Black people ever stop voting for the pols who enable these cops?

    1. Dude look at the pic; his ass is white.

      1. Jerry is correct, he is a black man.

  3. In a CA city I used to live near, a couple of years ago, the police responded to a report about a man who had a knife and was threatening suicide. When they arrived, the man had locked himself, alone, in a bedroom. It ended when they fatally shot him.

    1. Well, suicide is illegal. They had to stop that crime from happening.

      1. That makes the cops judge, jury and executioner!

        1. Dreddful situation.

          1. “It’s all the deep end…”

        2. Rhetoric like this doesn’t help advance the cause of police reform one bit. It does entrench the positions though and pushes people into the other camp.

          1. You keep saying that blaming all cops is not helping the move towards reform, I don’t see it that way. When you see one bug inside your home, what do you do? I bet you call the exterminator to have all the bugs eradicated inside and out, correct?

            1. When you see one bug inside your home, what do you do?

              I do love it when you lefty shitstains demonstrate your real proclivities by dehumanizing people. You know who else compared people to vermin?

            2. “When you see one bug inside your home, what do you do? I bet you call the exterminator to have all the bugs eradicated inside and out, correct?”

              Your first thought on finding a single bug is to call the exterminator? Your local exterminator must be making a fortune off of you.

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            3. According to BLM you burn the house down, with everyone still inside it. I’m fine with police reform, but BLM killed more unarmed people in the last couple months than cops did all last year, and 99% of the people they’re burning, rioting and assaulting over were the kind of criminals who end up killing unarmed black people.

    2. Reason had an article on it. Or at least another instance of the same scenario.

      I think some woman in the apartment called – He’s got a knife, and I think he’s suicidal.

      So the cops break down the door, say “eeek, he has a knife”, and shoot him to death.

      It’s like a Monty Python skit.

  4. Yes, either that or better mental health training.

    1. This is the kind of story people need to see to understand what police reform is needed.

      1. Yes, one of them anyway. I think the no knock raids where you have to magically know when its the police and not another kind of home invader busting down your door is another important one that people could be convinced of.

        1. That is no shit – the vast majority of those raids are complete bullshit anyway.

          1. They are called for in a very few rare instances and banning them completely is wrong but they definitely need to be strongly curtailed.

            1. The instances where no knock raids are truly called for are so exceedingly rare that banning them outright would be virtually harmless.

              1. No, you have to allow some exceptions. Blanket bans are just as bad as blanket allowances.

                1. No you don’t. Allowing exceptions allows the exceptions to swallow everything.

                  We’ve allowed exceptions for tons of things that were supposed to be used in rare situations and now the exceptions are the norm.

                  I honestly can not think of a single situation where a no-knock is necessary. If its an active situation then there is no warrant anyway.

                  If the guys inside are dangerous people who will shoot cops on sight – surround the place and send the warrant up on a remote controlled car. If they won’t surrender, well, you’ve got the place surrounded. If they start shooting, flatten the place – that’s what was going to happen anyway.

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      2. >>what police reform is needed

        could start by not killing people when not required.

        1. Yeah if life were simple. But it isn’t so simple trope is useless.

      3. We can hold them personally responsible for what they do, just like the rest of us Plebians.

    2. You want someone who magically makes mentally ill, violent people docile and manageable, and no such profession exists.

      Police will stop violence if necessary by killing. Mental health professionals will try to address the mental health issues but walk away if there is violence. Make your choice when you call for help and live with it: those are the only options you have.

      1. Some police deal with situations like this much better than others. I think some better training on dealing with people who are clearly mentally ill would help. There’s no magic needed. Some people deal with crazy people well. It’s no guarantee, but it reduces incidents like this.

        1. Well in many states you need more hours of training to goddamn cut hair or do manicures than you do to be a cop.

          Ex-military should be excluded from police work; soldiers are trained to kill people – it is their job by definition. That is NOT a cop’s job.

          Cops should have to pass several drug tests a year – ANY sign of “performance-enhancing drug”, in particular steroids and you are off the force. Forever.

          Some “how to not be an asshole” training would go a long way too…but police unions revel init.

          1. I was with you until your bullshit about military. First not all of us are trained killers and second of all, we aren’t only trained killers. Also if you look at the stats, ex military police actually use force less often than no veterans and have fewer use of force complaints filed. You are exactly wrong on this.

            1. OK, where are the stats?

          2. Its not the former-military cops who are the issue. Its the cops without military training – where a huge amount of training is focused on restraint and not killing people – but are going through academy’s that emphasis ‘intimidate, dominate, control’ style policing.

            Its also a problem of departments that don’t have clear rules of engagement and cover up for misconduct. Even the best Captain America rookies will quickly learn they can do what they want with impunity – and that type of power corrupts quickly.

            The issue has never been military cops, its been senior cops who think ‘The Untouchables’ was a training documentary.

            1. OK, where are the stats for this? Or, how do you know?

        2. Some police deal with situations like this much better than others. I think some better training on dealing with people who are clearly mentally ill would help.

          Police are already trained to deal with people who are clearly mentally ill. Where is the evidence that their training is inadequate? How specifically do you want to improve it?

        3. PCP fool. PCP makes insane, naked spitting supermen who would rip your guts open then sit and play with your intestines like babies. Getting them restrained without being forced to kill them is a big success.

      2. Why, it’s almost as if there is some kind of need for mental health professionals that have training to deal with violence.

        1. Yeah, genius, good luck getting him onto the gurney and in the straps

          1. Mental hospitals do it all the time. Psychiatric nurses are not fucking around.

      3. Then the best option is for mental health professionals to be present and make the call if police should use force. Or train the police to address mental health issues and use force only when other methods have failed. I am not arguing it should be solely handled mental health professionals, just that they should be on scene if possible. Also, depends on the mental health professional. Mental Health nurses are trained to take down violent mental patients. In fact I was doing drill and in charge of a team during vehicle extension training, in my team included a mental health nurse. The proctor failed me, because contrary to my orders, the “patient”, who was suffering from a “concussion” wasn’t responding to commands, and this team member took him down per his training instead of allowing me to try a different method to reorient the patient.

        1. Then the best option is for mental health professionals to be present and make the call if police should use force.

          Mentally ill persons who end up in violent confrontations with police almost always have made conscious choices that led to that outcome: refusal of treatment, refusal of commitment to a mental institution, self-medication with drugs. Why does society have any more obligations towards them than towards a drunk driver?

          Or train the police to address mental health issues and use force only when other methods have failed.

          And what makes you think they aren’t trained to do that?

          Mental Health nurses are trained to take down violent mental patients.

          Well, the same training should work against mentally sound people. If that’s so easy, why don’t we disarm the police entirely then?

          1. Disarming the police is a straw man. And some have made conscious choices. As for training it isn’t adequate even if they receive it. Not excusing criminal behavior but also think the best way to support police is to insure they have adequate resources and proper training. Not putting them in situations like this also would hell both cops and the public. Police reform doesn’t have to hinder or punish cops.
            Like body cams. The cops resisted them but as their use has spread the cops are finding they often protect them.

            1. Disarming the police is a straw man

              No, it’s a “reductio ad absurdum”: it shows how absurd your belief is that nurses can simply take down armed and dangerous men.

              to support police is to insure they have adequate resources and proper training

              We already insure that police have more than adequate resources and proper training. That’s why there are so few cases like this.

              But you cannot avoid them altogether: sometimes police necessarily shoot the mentally ill or the innocent. No amount of funding or training is going to change that.

              1. And no my argument isn’t absurd and no I don’t deny sometimes violence is called for. You are misinterpreting what I am arguing for. I am not blaming the cops, I am blaming the system that put them in this situation. Do you understand?
                Read my several other responses below to see what I actually am arguing for.
                As for their training I think it could be a lot better. Longer police academies more OJT. That isn’t because I don’t trust cops it’s because they do a very hard job where we put them in impossible positions, often enforcing victimless criminal codes (but not always, this isn’t such a case) and then blame them when things don’t go out way. Better training, better equipment and more resources is not a criticism of them. Nor is it in any way related to saying they should be disarmed. He may have needed to be arrested and he may have needed to be taken down was necessary, but it is also possible if they were trained in different takedown methods, and had better equipment to deal with spitting that they wouldn’t be being prosecuted in the court of public opinion. And I think that would make cops jobs easier.
                It appears here that their restraint method and their equipment contributed to his death. The question is could we train them differently and not out them in these positions. And yes they are rare but they are ceased upon to condemn all cops. And rather or not they are convicted or even charged, they will be under this shadow for the rest of their careers. We can do better than that.
                I don’t blame the veteran with PTSD or TBI, who ends up swallowing a bullet, I blame the system that didn’t help them. I don’t blame the cops so much as the system that puts them in these situations and then hangs them out to dry.

                1. It appears here that their restraint method and their equipment contributed to his death. The question is could we train them differently and not out them in these positions.

                  For you, that’s obviously not a question, it’s a strongly held belief. I don’t know of any improvements in training police could make that would substantially reduce these (already rare) cases.

                  I don’t blame the veteran with PTSD or TBI, who ends up swallowing a bullet, I blame the system that didn’t help them.

                  Why is there anybody to blame at all? These veterans have an incurable illness that is fatal if untreated (acquired in a dangerous profession that they chose voluntarily, one might add). We can keep them alive indefinitely by forcing treatment on them, or we can offer them voluntary treatment. If we offer them voluntary treatment, many of them will lapse and die. What specifically do you want “the system” to do differently?

                  1. Obviously you have never dealt with the VA or the military mental health fields.

                    1. Well, that’s why I asked you a question: What specifically do you want “the system” to do differently?

                  2. And why are you so opposed to reviewing the circumstances and improving them if possible? That isn’t a condemnation of the cops it is a condemnation of hidebound thinking.

                    1. And why are you so opposed to reviewing the circumstances and improving them if possible?

                      Where was I “opposed to reviewing the circumstances and improving them if possible”?

                      I’m simply predicting/telling you: at the value we usually place on a human life, there is no significant improvement possible.

          2. You really want to blame mentally ill people for not carefully thinking things through?

            1. Or their caretakers.

              Look, these people belong in an asylum, but we thought that was icky in the ’60s. That mainstreaming the mentally ill within the community was also a hell of a lot cheaper, didn’t escape notice either. You let the violent—and if he’s spitting on officers, he’s violent—mentally ill wander around, then cases like these where they self-medicate and freak out, are going to happen.

              As to training, or that mental ward nurses have a magic ability to subdue the mentally ill, that may be true. In hospitals, mental wards, prison cells. Not on the street. And we don’t have the time, money, or officers to be able to have a few babysit someone like Mr. Prude for a few hours until he comes down off his drug or starts compensating again.

              I’m sorry he died. I’m really sorry he had this horrible condition that caused him to act the way he did. I doubt strongly that a 3.5 minute restraint that wasn’t a choke hold, was sufficient by itself to cause asyphxia, and I suspect most of the blame for that lies with the drugs he was taking.

              I wish he could have received the help he obviously needed, long before the cops were called.

              1. That’s a lot of excuses. God forbid the police were careful and made efforts to always protect life.

              2. Why do the cops need to babysit him? They could detain him in a safe manner (obviously their method didn’t prove safe) and then turn him over to EMTs to transport to a hospital for treatment. I am not saying the cops don’t have a role. I am asking that we provide the cops with better tools. And training or professional assistance are tools. I am not anti-cop. I think we have created a situation where the have few good choices and then blame them when we don’t like the outcome. Part of any true police reform is eliminating most or all victim free criminal codes but the left rarely suggests that. In fact Cuomo just announced they need 4000 extra enforcers to enforce his Constitutionally questionable social distancing decree before he will allow restaurants to reopen. There is a middle ground.

                1. AIUI, they did try to detain him in a safe manner and turn him over to the EMTs. That’s where the EMT who told them to turn him over came in. Also AIUI, Fire or EMS can’t of their own accord, take a resisting patient like Prude into their care, restrain him, and head off to the hospital, can they? If they can, then why have the police restrain Prude at all? Let the EMTs do it.

                  How would a mental health nurse, in this situation—assume no cops were there—get Mr. Prude off the street and spitting on people, and into a condition where he could have been transported to some facility that could care for him?

                  ‘Babysitting’ was more a reference to the common complaint here that the police should either let the guy go (and have to keep returning to the scene every half hour for another new complaint) or watch him until he calms down and accepts being transported to the hospital.

                  1. I don’t know. Frankly, I agree with you but also think we can come up with a better solution were the cops are not left to take the blame because the system failed.

                  2. And I never suggested let him go or watch over him. And I am not sure how they took him down. It does appear that the equipment they were issued contributed to his death. Not their fault, but maybe better equipment and or training in using it would have prevented this. Maybe not.
                    And maybe part of the problem is what you stated, that we leave it to the cops to secure them and the EMTs aren’t allowed, or trained to assist. I don’t know how much training civilian EMTs are given but we were trained to deal with combative patients in the military. Maybe part of the training would either be in reexamining how we train and use EMTs.

            2. You really want to blame mentally ill people for not carefully thinking things through?

              People who are permanently mentally impaired are already not legally competent, so their guardians are responsible for ensuring that they don’t get out.

              The only way you can be both mentally ill and out on your own is if you are, in fact, legally competent and responsible for the choices you make. Usually, that’s either because your illness can be controlled with treatments or because it is mild.

              People who are violent because of mental illness failed to get the treatment they required; that’s a choice they almost always make as legally competent adults.

              1. NOYB2, isn’t that a lot of self-serving lies we tell ourselves because society lacks the desire to allocate space, money, and resources to care for the chronically mentally ill? There just isn’t room to take all of the adults who can’t take care of themselves, so we tell ourselves little lies that, with proper medication and help from a family member, Patient Doe is perfectly capable of living out in society.

                I’m not trying to insult you, NOYB2. I just find the justifications for not having institutionalized someone like Daniel Prude—assuming he suffered from a chronic, debilitating mental illness—to be very glib.

                1. And also some conditions are very temporary and can be caused by the medications they are taking to manage their conditions. Especially when you first start a regimen as everyone reacts to the medications differently and therefore you need to tailor each cocktail individually. Not all need to be institutionalized and some actually become psychotic because they are doing the right thing.

                  1. Sure, but I was speaking of the chronically mentally ill. Schizophrenia, paranoia, the violently psychotic.

                    Not someone who is having an acute episode. Limited in-patient treatment, medication, therapy all can have satisfactory outcomes in those cases. Satisfactory being defined as the patient is able to care for themselves in society.

                    I don’t see satisfactory outcomes when we look at the long term mentally ill.

                    1. I was talking about those on outpatient treatment who have breaks. But you’re right not all outcomes are going to be good.

                2. NOYB2, isn’t that a lot of self-serving lies we tell ourselves because society lacks the desire to allocate space, money, and resources to care for the chronically mentally ill?

                  We used to have that system: if you were mentally ill, you were institutionalized. Those institutions were depressing, miserable places. That, and new treatment options, are why Americans made the decision starting in the 1960’s to deinstitutionalize the mentally ill as much as possible. Money probably also played a role

                  But deinstitutionalization means that people need to take more responsibility for their own treatment, and when people fail to do that, they end up committing suicide or in violent confrontations with the police.

                  I’m not trying to insult you, NOYB2. I just find the justifications for not having institutionalized someone like Daniel Prude

                  To the contrary, I think someone like Prude should have been institutionalized. I think we’ve gone too far with deinstitutionalization and should reinvest in those institutions and (somewhat) lower the thresholds for commitment to such institutions.

                  What we shouldn’t do is send potentially dangerous mentally ill persons home and then turn the entire police force into the nursing staff of a nationwide open-air insane asylum, which is what others here are proposing.

                  1. No that is not what I am proposing at all. And if you think it is it is because you misinterpreted what I was saying, probably as a result of your confirmation bias and my inadequacy in stating my case.
                    No they shouldn’t be expected to be nursing staff, but maybe some of the skills that mental health progressional, such as mental health nurses, can assist them. And no, some need to be committed. Some also can function as outpatients and no, not everyone who has a psychotic break is the result of unmanaged mental health or lack of personal responsibility. I’ve seen patients get violently I’ll from taking a common anti-nausea medication. I’ve seen people have delirium from drinking to much water and not eating enough. I’ve seen asthmatics have violent responses to their asthma medication. In this case (Prudes) yes the combination of inadequately treated mental illness and PCP led to a bad outcome but my solution is to try and find a way to make it easier for cops and other first responders to deal with any psychotic break. I feel bad for the cops who have to deal with the post trauma stress (everyone goes through some) and grief of this guy dieing and also the stress of having to deal with the media and the family crucifying them. I think we owe it to them, the cops, to learn from this and improve the outcome next time.

                    1. but my solution is to try and find a way to make it easier for cops and other first responders to deal with any psychotic break.

                      To “try and find a way” is not a “solution”. What you are actually saying is that there is no known solution to this problem.

                      No they shouldn’t be expected to be nursing staff, but maybe some of the skills that mental health progressional, such as mental health nurses, can assist them.

                      Maybe. And if you want to make a cost-benefit analysis in terms of dollars per life saved, people are happy to look at it.

                      Right now, my assumption is that the dollars spent per life saved are too high, and that’s what these things come down to.

                  2. And you are right, part of any solution is to realize that humane institutionalized care is needed for some with intractable mental illness. Never denied that.

              2. People who are permanently mentally impaired are already not legally competent, so their guardians are responsible for ensuring that they don’t get out.

                If they have been declared so by a court. There are plenty of cases where that is not so.

          3. Just because someone makes bad choices doesn’t mean we should stop giving a shit when tragedy befalls them. I don’t know about you, but I have a lot of compassion towards people who have trouble doing what’s best for themselves. I’ve been in that boat before.

            1. Just because someone makes bad choices doesn’t mean we should stop giving a shit when tragedy befalls them.

              People who become violent due to mental illness almost always have a long medical history; they are outside an institution only because they made a conscious commitment to control their mental illness. Sticking to the treatment and committing themselves when they might become a threat to others is their responsibility.

              1. Not even close. Sometimes medications, for even minor mental illnesses such as depression can also cause psychotic breaks. Not all go off their medications, sometimes it’s the medications themselves, especially when you first start on them that causes the problems.
                It is like a diabetic starting on insulin. Some people will go hypoglycemic on what is considered a normal dose of insulin. With antipsychotics sometimes the change is so gradual you don’t realize it until you lose control. When I had my period of medication induced mania last summer, I felt on top of the world, I felt more productive then I have ever felt and more organized. It wasn’t until I completely lost it in a minor situation and others pointing out how touchy/angry I had become that I realized what was happening. Luckily I did before something bad happened. And with a medication change the problem was solved. I was trying to do the right thing and take responsibility. But the medications I took made things worse because I reacted in a way that most people don’t to them. And also because the correct medications for me were expensive and my insurance insisted I try the cheaper medication first before my doctor was allowed to change it.

                1. Not even close. Sometimes medications, for even minor mental illnesses such as depression can also cause psychotic breaks.

                  You’re playing word games here. If you are willing to take medication that causes psychotic breaks, then the mental illness is serious enough not to be called minor.

                  With antipsychotics sometimes the change is so gradual you don’t realize it until you lose control.

                  Indeed. Now your proposed solution is to go home but hope that police have enough mental health training to deal with you when you lose control. That is the wrong approach: it’s dangerous for you, it’s dangerous to others, it’s expensive, and it’s ineffective.

                  The right solution is to ensure that when such treatment starts, you are properly supervised and constrained until it’s clear that the possibility of psychotic breaks is remote and that you are diligent and responsible in complying with the medication schedule. That is called “the system working”.

                  1. It isn’t just antipsychotics that can cause mental breaks and no locking everyone up is just a really poor understanding. Maybe 1 in 10,000 have a bad outcome. Do you lock all 10,000 up? Fuck you are the one playing word games. You are not even willing to allow that sometimes shit happens and it can’t be predicted nor is it anyone’s fault. Also, your attitude is what makes many people avoid getting the help they need until they do something bad. And no, taking medications does not indicate the mental illness is serious enough to warrant institutionalized care. You don’t understand mental illness obviously and I bet you believe that depression can just be worked through, right? You are very narrow minded on this. And you are also under the misapprehension that wanting to have better outcomes is a condemnation of the cops. It isn’t. For fuck sake, you really need to do a bit of research here.

                    1. NOBY2 I agree with soldiermedic. You seem to be lacking in experience with mental illness. Treating mental illness is as much an art as a science. Medications that work for a long time stop working. One has to switch medications sometimes. New medications can have bad side effects (like psychosis). Insurance won’t hospitalize people long enough to make sure new medications area really working. When someone with a chronic mental illness has a psychotic break it is not always their fault! And there are no way enough mental hospital beds now to keep everyone under observation long enough to make one person in 1,000 doesn’t have a psychotic break because either their old meds have stopped working or their new meds are not working as well as they should.

                      The cops were not only poorly trained, that spit shield is a shit piece of equipment.

                    2. Maybe 1 in 10,000 have a bad outcome. Do you lock all 10,000 up?

                      I didn’t suggest locking anybody up. I suggest that you make your choice and live with the consequences. If you take a drug that has a 1:10000 chance of a psychotic break, you may rationally conclude that that’s low enough for you to go home and not worry about it. But if you then end up giving away all your money to charity, that’s on you. Likewise, if you end up threatening your neighbor with a steak knife, don’t complain when police don’t have an on-call mental health nurse and just treat you like any other violent person.

                      You don’t understand mental illness obviously and I bet you believe that depression can just be worked through, right? You are very narrow minded on this. And you are also under the misapprehension that wanting to have better outcomes is a condemnation of the cops.

                      I hold none of those beliefs. What I am saying is that mental illness is a disease that entails risk for the patient and for other people. And as with any other disease, how we deal with the disease is based on cost/benefit analysis. You haven’t made the case that the benefits of more mental health expertise in police work justifies the cost.

                  2. Also, what time period would you suggest? Because some people can be on a medication that works for years (like with any disease) and then it doesn’t. Your body becomes resistant or the inert ingredients are changed and you have a reaction to them. In other words psychotic breaks, with a lot of medications not just anti-psychotics and not just for mental illness, can happen days, months, years or whatever after you start them.

                    1. Also, what time period would you suggest? Because some people can be on a medication that works for years

                      I’m not suggesting any time period at all, I’m suggesting that you make the choice you want and live with the consequences. One consequence is the very, very remote possibility that you get shot by police through a series of unfortunate events.

                      Personally, if I suffered from one of those conditions, getting shot by police would be the least of my worries. I’d be much more concerned about harming my loved ones or ruining my business. And even mentally healthy people put mechanisms in place that limit rash decisions.

                      Furthermore, I don’t spend money to guard myself against 1:1000000 risks, and I don’t see why I should do it for you.

          4. “Mentally ill persons who end up in violent confrontations with police almost always have made conscious choices….” Did you consider what mentally ill means?

            1. Yes, I did, and I explained it. You should re-read what I said.

          5. “Then the best option is for mental health professionals to be present and make the call if police should use force.”

            Sure. You can’t get a psychiatrist to even come to the hospital at 10pm. They just call in orders and check in in the morning. Psychologists are not on call. They just do office hours.

            Training police in mental health issues? Look these guys are mostly not exactly Carl Jung level intellects. It takes years and the right kind of person to have a clue.

            Why did they have to force the guy to do anything? Why not just let him cool down and keep him from hurting anybody else.

        2. Until the rules are changed so that cops aren’t ‘in charge’ at every scene, it won’t matter. A cop decides he’s had enough of this shit and gets aggressive and the mental health professional gets backhanded if they try to get in the way. Same as some cops do right now with medics. Its ‘their scene’.

  5. Another example of how police can respond poorly to drug and mental health calls

    Well, then don’t call police when you have a mental health emergency. If you do call police, they assume that you are actually facing a violent threat and they will (and should) react accordingly.

    1. Yeah. The problem is that when you call 911, the police come. And people don’t know who else to call when there is a scary emergency.

    2. This. Police arrest people, that’s their job. They are not your therapist, expecting them to deal with the myriad of mental health issues people have is ridiculous.

      If you’re naked and trying to break into cars, you deserve to get arrested whether you’re on drugs or you’re crazy or you’re just having a weird night. That doesn’t mean lock them up and throw away the key, but a night in the drunk tank to stop the immediate problem is absolutely in order. They may have used excessive force in this case, but I’ve never had to deal with a naked man on PCP before so I don’t really have a frame of reference.

      1. Actually, the police’s job is whatever the government in charge of them tells them is their job. So if the legislature says police need to deal better with mentally ill people, then that is their job now.

        1. Well let’s have “the government” tell them to be therapists, school teachers, nurses…shit the list a fucking ridiculous expectations could just go on and on.

          At some point expectations just need to be at least somewhat realistic.

          1. I make no comment on what the police’s job should be, only what defines what their job is.

        2. People go to school and study specialized programs for years and still don’t know how to deal with all versions of mental illness.

          Police departments explicitly refrain from hiring anyone with that kind of intellect, and their training is a couple months. Do you think expecting them to be a therapist is a realistic expectation?

          1. Yeah, let’s just shoot them all and not give a shit about it. You have a giant hole in your heart, pal.

            1. Fuck personal responsibility!
              Yea!

              1. I think you are oversimplifying (unless you just think that everyone is responsible for all of their actions no matter how insane they are). There is a legal meaning for insanity. Which does say that people are sometimes not liable for their actions, i.e. don’t have personal responsibility for their actions under some circumstances. It’s certainly debatable whether that is a good thing or not. But it’s a long standing part of our legal system. And unless you want to throw it out entirely, it is a reasonable and non-obvious question to ask when exactly an insane person is responsible for his actions and when he isn’t.

                1. And unless you want to throw it out entirely, it is a reasonable and non-obvious question to ask when exactly an insane person is responsible for his actions and when he isn’t.

                  You seem to be starting from the premise that if you are not responsible for your actions, police should somehow treat you differently. That’s not how police works, or how it can work.

                  Police can reasonably shoot you if they reasonably believe you are a threat to others; your legal responsibility and motivations are irrelevant. That’s the only rational way policing can work at all.

          2. This is part of a discussion of police reform, no? What you describe may be the case now. But what should it be? Maybe smarter, more educated police would help with a lot of things. I don’t know, but it seems like something worth considering.

            1. I support police reform because I support the police. We put them in an impossible situation and then complain about the outcomes. Sometimes the complaints are warranted but often they are not. In this situation the system seems to be more to blame. We need to re-examine the training on how we detain and immobilize people, the use of spitting hoods (or we can redesign them to make them safer). This also seems to have at least partially contributed to the George Floyd killing. Could a different method other than a knee to the neck, which was the department recommended method, have been used? Could police be better trained to deal with people in mental distress and or respiratory distress? Or barring that have better training to recognize it and turn it over to EMTs? Asking the questions to often ends up being interpreted as anti-cop because of idiots like WeAllAreNotPerfect who blame the cops no matter what. And don’t aim their ire at the actual problem. Too many laws and a broken system.

          3. Do you really listen to NOFX, Fat Mike’s Drug Habit? If so have you ever understood any of the lyrics in any of their songs and how much Fat Mike would be disgusted by a bootlicker like you??

        3. Actually, the police’s job is whatever the government in charge of them tells them is their job.

          You’re playing meaningless semantic games.

      2. Or admit them to the hospital where they can get the treatment they need?

        1. I work in such a place [and emergency department] and that is exactly what they do; bring them here and they get medicated, restrained, whatever doesn’t kill them until shit calms down; or gets sober.

          1. I also worked in an ER and got extensive training in dealing with PTSD and behavioral health as a nurse. I am not speaking from ignorance. I know what they do. They can also order a 24 tob72 your psyche hold.

        2. And “treatment they need” is a bullshit term that encompasses whatever the public wants to think it does. There is no magic solution to most of these.

          1. OK, how about “treatment that will keep them alive and tolerable to society at large.

          2. No you can’t cure it, if that is what you are referring to by magical solutions, but it can be managed. I’ve dealt with drug induced psychosis as the doctors attempted to manage my medications for depression, anxiety, traumatic stress disorder (from my time in the service and as a nurse) ASD, suicidal idolation and ADHD (like a lot of people with Asperger’s Adderall gave me a temporary state of mania, and we had to switch drugs). I know the struggle somewhat. But with counseling and better medications I am happier and far calmer and more productive. And some of my stress was the result of abusive behavior by state employees (teachers in my case) because my autism and adhd wasn’t diagnosed until my 40s (hell Asperger’s wasn’t even a recognized diagnosis until after I graduated).

            1. Another example legalizing prostitution would make it easier to target actual human traffickers.

              1. This was posted in the wrong spot.

            2. Are you a legally competent adult? You need to decide whether you are threat to other people or not. And if you get it wrong, you need to live with the consequences.

              1. Gee. It is so simple. Because the world is only black and white. You are wrong. Even the best meaning people trying to get right can have unintentional outcomes. Yes you do have to live with yourselves and what happened. But you seem to be arguing that even someone who is trying to get help and the help makes things worse are monsters that don’t deserve compassion or saving.

                1. ut you seem to be arguing that even someone who is trying to get help and the help makes things worse are monsters that don’t deserve compassion or saving.

                  Not at all. You propose that we should spend massive amounts of money on a (likely ineffective) effort to train police to deal with acute, violent mental illness anywhere anytime.

                  I’m saying we should spend money to create institutions where people can be treated under supervision until they pose a low risk to society.

                  1. How long do they need to be treated? Because a break can occur with a variety of medications, many of which aren’t for mental health, at any point. And you are assuming I am suggesting more money and you are also assuming that it won’t work. Both of which you don’t have evidence of.

                    1. And you are assuming I am suggesting more money

                      You’ve implied that either police should receive more mental health training and/or that mental health nurses should be involved in policing. Both of those cost substantial amounts of money.

                      and you are also assuming that it won’t work. Both of which you don’t have evidence of.

                      You want to change how policing works, so you need to make a concrete proposal and justify it.

                      I’m perfectly fine with police the way it is, the same way I’m perfectly fine with the sewage system; I don’t see a need for change. Police kill people, sometimes wrongly, but it’s so rare that it is not a significant concern relative to other, more easily preventable causes of death.

                2. Even the best meaning people trying to get right can have unintentional outcomes.

                  And what did you do to “try to get things right”? Did you give temporary guardianship to someone else? Did you move in with family and ask them to supervise you while you started treatment with drugs that might cause a psychotic break?

                  1. Why would I have? The reaction I had only occurs in about 1 out of a 10,000 people. You are arguing about something it is obvious you don’t understand.

                    1. Why would I have? The reaction I had only occurs in about 1 out of a 10,000 people.

                      You listed a range of conditions you had and a range of treatments you received; for some of those, keeping yourself and others safe is important.

                      In any case, personally, I haven’t be concerned about a 1:10000 risk of a psychotic break (I have taken some anti-malarials), but I am also not asking for any changes to policing. If I suffer a psychotic break and end up becoming threatening or violent, I have no problems with police shooting me.

              2. And also if it is medication induced (and not recreational drugs) you could argue that the medication limits your ability to be a legally competent adult until the situation is fixed.

                1. And also if it is medication induced (and not recreational drugs) you could argue that the medication limits your ability to be a legally competent adult until the situation is fixed.

                  And that is why we should create institutions and mechanisms by which such people can be carefully supervised.

                  What you propose is treat them as if they were legally competent anyway and let the police deal with them when things go wrong. That’s dangerous to the individual and society, and it’s just not going to work.

                  1. Because you can’t predict and these reactions are rare but do occur and they are very real. Your solution of locking up anyone that starts on a medication that can cause a psychotic break (literally 1000s of medications, many who don’t have mental issues) is actually even less realistic. Go through the Physician Desk reference or the nursing drug handbook and skim it to see how many medications, common medications, can cause psychotic issues in people. Tylenol can. Are you suggesting we lock up everyone anytime they have a headache? And most people don’t have mental breaks on anti-depressants but about 1 out of 10,000 will. Do we lock up everyone, all including the other 9,999 until we make sure they don’t have a reaction? And again how long do you lock them up for, because the time frame isn’t set. It actually would be far cheaper to teach mental health first aid in the police academies (I also suggest you take it, it’s a one day course and usually costs less than $50, I suggest everyone take it and QPR which is helpful in recognizing and dealing with suicidal people).

                    1. Your solution of locking up anyone that starts on a medication that can cause a psychotic break

                      Nowhere did I suggest locking anybody up. I’m saying you have the option of making your own choices depending on your risk and risk tolerance.

                      What I am suggesting is not burdening police with mental health care. Some people suffer rare psychotic breaks, some of those become violent, and some of those end up shot by police. It’s just not a risk that’s worth addressing.

                  2. And your solution of locking up anyone that may have a psychotic break at any point is even less workable.

                    1. I never suggested “locking up anyone that may have a psychotic break at any point”

                      What I suggested is that you make your own choices and live with the consequences. One of those consequences is that police might shoot you if you have an unexpected psychotic break.

                  3. And to further demonstrate the impossibility of your solution, i.e. lock up anyone when they start on medications for mental health, 16.2 million people in America are diagnosed with clinical depression.

                    1. 6.4 million children alone or 5% of the population under 17, have ADHD. 5.4 million Americans over 17 are on the Autism Spectrum (2.2% of the adult population). 5.7 million adults have bipolar disorder, 2.6% of the population.

                    2. Overall 46.6 million Americans have some form of mental illness.

              3. And also it’s not just antipsychotics that can cause mental breaks. Many cardiac meds, some BP meds, some diabetic meds etc can cause episodes as well.

        3. How do you propose you get a hysterical, naked man on PCP to the hospital without arresting him first?

          If you’re saying hospital instead of drunk tank, I agree that’s the right call in some circumstances. That’s a decision probably better left to the EMTs though.

          1. Yes to both. Yes arrest, but call EMTs and transport to the hospital rather than the drunk tank.

          2. As for taking down a person on PCP, my story about the mental health nurse I served with is a good example. He was trained in safe ways to deal with violent mental patients. His take down was fairly safe. Clearing the area, cordoning the person off and then using some form of safe takedown is warranted. And I do not state the cops overreacted in this situation just that they didn’t have adequate training and we may need to rethink anti-spitting hoods. Also, it seems the science behind excited delirium needs to be better studied. I don’t label it pseudoscience but possibly incomplete science.

            1. “Also, it seems the science behind excited delirium needs to be better studied. I don’t label it pseudoscience but possibly incomplete science.”

              I’d always heard of it in context with Tasers and intoxicated subjects. Not someone merely intoxicated. I admittedly haven’t made a review of the literature.

              1. It is pretty shallow. And contradictory.

              2. And the reference that the APA and AMA doesn’t recognize it is not a valid argument it doesn’t exist either. Both have been credibly accused in the past of changing or restricting diagnosis due to political considerations.

        4. Yes, naked man in the street breaking glass and biting people, you should go check yourself into the hospital. Take care now, bye.

    3. There’s not another option.

      You call 911 with a medical emergency and the cops are coming.

      You call 911 with a fire and the cops are coming.

      Because we’ve handed every job from chasing down bad guys to picking up dead animals on the side of the road to the local cops.

  6. Yeah, a lot of police could deal with crazy people much better. I’ve also seen stories of police dealing really well with people in similar situations, including a local one where a suicidal kid was basically attempting suicide by cop and the cop dealt with it really well. SO maybe this is a place where better training is an answer. Of course, you also have to weed the psychos out of the police force, which is no small task.

    1. I’ve also seen stories of police dealing really well with people in similar situations, including a local one where a suicidal kid was basically attempting suicide by cop and the cop dealt with it really well. SO maybe this is a place where better training is an answer.

      A suicidal kid isn’t the same as someone who has a psychotic episode or is in a murderous rage. There is no evidence that more training would result in more lives saved.

      Also, in many cases, violent mentally ill persons are responsible for their mental state, either by having made the choice not to continue treatment, or by taking drugs. Morally, they are often in the same category as a drunk driver.

      1. A suicidal kid isn’t the same as someone who has a psychotic episode or is in a murderous rage.

        No, actually there is a lot of overlap of those situations. In this case, the kid was threatening violence with a motor vehicle and had already vandalized some property with his vehicle. I think you could fairly call it a psychotic episode. If the cop had shot him, it probably would have been considered justified. But he didn’t. And that’s a good thing that should be congratulated and encouraged.

        And either we accept that mentally ill people are not completely responsible for their actions or we don’t. If we are going with the former, then you can’t really hold a mentally ill person completely responsible for poor decisions regarding their mental health care. I find this a difficult topic and don’t really have an answer. But if a cop can end a situation less violently, that’s always a good thing.

        1. It’s a lot easier for people to not care.

          1. Not as easy as shallow virtue signaling though

            1. Yeah, because wanting the cops to have better training and better equipment to handle tough decisions, which ends up protecting the cops from bogus charges while also protecting those who are incapacitated is shallow virtue signalling. Normally Nardz I don’t disagree with you but you are being a bit shallow in your take here.

              1. Yes, I am.
                My comment is directed specifically at “Joe” who is just shallow virtue signaling.
                You, zeb, gray Jay, et al are having a thoughtful discussion, so mea culpa if you took my comment as applying to anyone other than joe

              2. Yeah, because wanting the cops to have better training and better equipment to handle tough decisions

                How many individuals with psychotic breaks are killed by police every year?

                How many of those could have been prevented with “better training and better equipment”? What training and equipment are you talking about?

                How much does that cost? How many dollars would we spend for a life saved?

                What alternatives are there to changing policing?

                You have yet to make a concrete proposal or make an argument for it.

        2. If we’re going to say that mentally ill people are not responsible for their own actions we need asylums to put them into when they cause problems for society at large.

          You can’t have an entire class of people who are not responsible for their own actions just roaming about. I feel bad for people who are mentally ill, and the police are definitely not the people to help them, but what is a property owner meant to do if a mentally ill person is destroying their property? Just let it happen?

          1. Yeah, something different anyway. They way we are dealing with it now doesn’t seem great. I honestly don’t have an answer I am attached to. This is a very tricky issue for a libertarian/individualist sort of person.

          2. It depends on the reason. My own experiences with a mental break as doctors adjusted my medications has opened my eyes. Some would benefit from confinement others the situation is temporary and can be managed outpatient with correct medications.

  7. The photo at the beginning of the article reminds me of a scene out of the 1968 movie Planet of The Apes!

      1. I am so not a racist!

  8. Still the scariest G-rated movie of all time. Would be PG-13 at least now.

  9. http://twitter.com/simonvouet1/status/1301612376190574593?s=19

    Deon Kay brandished gun at police when shot.

    Leftists, of course, completely reject reality and claim false equivalence to Kyle Rittenhouse

    1. And here’s ENB on it this morning:
      “• D.C. police fatally shot a young black man in the back as he was running away from them. Deon Kay had just turned 18, according to his family. Police say they were called to the area “to investigate a man with a gun” and “upon arrival, officers encountered individuals in and around a vehicle.” When two of the men, including Kay, saw police and tried to leave the scene, the cops pursued and shot at them, killing Kay”

      1. Yeah her take was wrong and an example of how hot takes make police reform harder. It isn’t thar most cops are murderers but it is the system that is to blame. And as libertarians and libertarian leaning people we should focus on the system not the cops. Their training, equipment and the laws they have to enforce, as well as the inability to get rid of actual bad cops, is a result of the system not the cops.

    2. Clearly a justified shooting.

      A few important points to note:

      1. The department released the bodycam footage within hours rather than sitting on it for months.
      2. The video clearly shows a gun in the suspect’s hand
      3. Along with the bodycam video, they released a statement that included a photo of the suspects weapon sized at the scene.

      The official police account of any officer involved shooting should be questioned if it doesn’t follow the pattern above.

      1. Yes, the journalist need to learn that their hot takes are actually hurting the cause they claim to be advocating for.

        1. I don’t think they care.
          That’s the problem.
          Sincere advocates of real reform don’t have much of a voice in the movement.
          It is entirely dominated by BLM grifters, leftist totalitarians, and malicious social signalers like ENB.
          BLM had an initial success years ago in getting bodycams more widespread use.
          That, if anything, only frustrated them. It had positive effects, which is harmful to the real agenda of BLM (and had the unintended consequence of exonerating more cops than it incriminated).
          Cyto’s posts over the last few days are spot on.
          The leaders of the “Police reform” movement do not want the situation to improve, they want power. To gain that power they need to sow division and inhibit positive changes.

          1. Oh, and about those bodycams…
            You can tell who doesn’t want positive developments by how they handle the bodycam footage.
            The shooting of Deon Kay was entirely justified.
            But that won’t be allowed to be the story.
            Instead, those who don’t go full-retard and say things like pointing a gun at someone isn’t cause enough to shoot them, will simply ignore the story and move on to another outrage.
            Then, after time passes, they’ll invoke the name “Deon Kay” like they do “Michael Brown” and lump it in with actual injustices.
            Reality isn’t useful to them, only fantasy

  10. That’s an awesome typo.

  11. We are under massive emotional stress from these draconian and unnecessary country-wide lockdowns of our businesses, schools, churches, parks, beaches, etc. Those who struggle emotionally and are on “the edge” are being pushed off the edge.

    This is what that looks like.

    Did our leaders weigh the emotional impacts of lockdowns back in March? You know, when they said “just a couple of weeks, three at most”.

    No, they didn’t. They became lockdown crazy and just kept them up.

    Here we are now, six months into this and schools are STILL fucking locked in many areas, and families are still struggling to manage having children at home while working and keeping all the balls in the air.

    Enough is enough!

    The world has gone mad. We are locking down, six months later still, from a virus that we KNOW does no harm to children (except in rare, rare cases, and less of a danger to children than influenza, swimming pools, driving, etc.). Yet, we continue to do this.

    Can somebody please tell me why we continue to accept this government overeach?!

    I want to make sense of this on some level, but I simply cannot.

    1. Because your kid might give it to my gram-ma!

        1. I think that was supposed to be sarcasm. Hard to tell sometimes.

          1. Wasn’t sure.
            My mistake

    2. “We” paleface? I vote Libertarian.

  12. Let me play defender of the police for a minute:

    Everyone has a responsibility to prevent these sorts of incidents except for the police. Why didn’t everyone except the police do something so this wouldn’t have happened to these officers?

  13. Sigh. Another throwdown medical examiner’s report will prove definitively that the armed naked man died of a marijuana overdose. Either that or: “There is an excuse, Your Honor. It seems our brother officers found that dead body on the street and were on their way to turn it in to the proper authorities.”

  14. So they immobilized the guy, put a hood on him, then held him down for 3 minutes until the EMT’s showed up. The EMT’s assess the guy, roll him over and perform CPR. Now the rest of us in the cheap seats get to second guess what these guys did at our leisure and pass out blame? I don’t see where the cops over-reacted or did anything unreasonable. Sometimes, tragic things happen. We wish we could come up with a better solution for next time, but this time it had a shitty outcome. I’m not sure jumping on the second guess and blame the cops bandwagon is a great solution. The cops have to react to a million different situations all the time. There’s never going to be a “perfect playbook” for every situation. I’m all for evaluating the situation after the fact to improve in the future, but blaming the cops for everything is a piss poor solution. You’re always going to need cops, so helping them improve their performance is a lot better idea than crapping on them every time some situation goes to hell. They have to respond right now, not after a community meeting and in consult with a bevy of “experts”. The outcome will never be perfect every time. Get used to the reality.

    1. Nope. I agree. I don’t blame the cops but feel we can improve the situation we put the cops in. I don’t think they acted wrongly, but maybe the use of the spit hoods should be reevaluated. Maybe better mental health training would help. It isn’t the cops fault. Maybe better training and more timely response by EMTs and having them be more involved in dealing with combative (but unarmed) mental patients would help. Definitely. Improving the system is why no matter what you do in the Army, you do an after action report (and we did it in the hospitals too after codes or trauma cases). Unfortunately, we have one camp that wants to blame the cops, another camp that always protects the cops and yet another (the police unions) who resist any attempt to better the system. It is the system that is broken. That is what needs reformed. Yeah some cops are assholes and should be gotten rid of, but the difficulty in getting rid of them is also the systems fault. And I forgot another camp, the ones who blame the cops but then legislate more and more laws, often victimless laws, that make police encounters more likely and some of those will turn out bad.

      1. You keep saying, reform the system. Good idea, you’re certainly right about that. How much training do these individuals who have become cops need? The “system” needs to train them not to kneel on someone’s neck until they kill them? Not to shoot fleeing unarmed people in the back? Not to steal from people? Not to lie to obtain search warrants? Not to lie for fellow officers?

        Do you think the police we have are nearly brain dead and need to be “trained” by the “system” how to do absolutely everything that might be required of them, even things that seem obvious to almost everyone else? Or do you think the police lack any bit of morality and need to be trained how not to be evil?

  15. First responders can’t know everything.

    We have the technology, through products like “google glass” a pair of glasses connected online worn to connect directly with experts who can see and relay instructions to first responders .

    1. Wow an actual almost coherent and pertinent post from our resident stormfronts racists. It is as surprising as if Tony had made a cognitive argument.

      1. Now it’s your turn.

        1. What to be a racist. I’ll pass thank you. I’ll leave that to you.

          1. Nigger is a positively delightful word to say if you’re black.

            Do all my niggahs agree?

            What did you say? I’m a racist if I’m not black.

            What a racist thing to say.

            Haha.

            1. I mean… you’re not entirely wrong there.

              But the holocaust did happen.

              1. No it didn’t.

                Haha

  16. “In the video, one EMT and an officer on the scene affirm to each other that Prude was under the influence of “excited delirium.” The EMT assures the officer, “It’s not you guys’s fault.””

    As if they gave a rats ass. They were yucking it up while it was happening and probably never gave it another thought after that night.

    1. Excited delirium is code for “we killed a guy in our custody” used by first responders.

      From wiki

      Excited delirium is not recognized by the World Health Organization, American Psychiatric Association or the American Medical Association, and therefore not listed as a medical condition in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders,

      Why would first responders reference something that is not recognized?

      1. Many forms of autism weren’t recognized until the 1990s but they still existed. The APA still forbids the diagnose of psychosis and psychopathy for juveniles despite mountains of evidence that it does exist.

      2. “Why would first responders reference something that is not recognized?”

        The camera did not catch the “wink, wink” when EMTs were signalling a possible defense while offering up some mental health first aid for the cops who are obviously devastated by the whole thing.

        1. No first responder has the authority to diagnose something that is not recognized by the medical community.

          1. First responders and even nurses don’t have the authority to diagnose except in very rare circumstances (i.e. limited nursing diagnosis which are not medical diagnosis) period.

            1. Well that’s irrelevant.

              1. No it isn’t it completely is relevant. It just destroys your point.

                1. My point was about diagnosis of conditions that are not recognized by the medical community. In other words, fabrication.

                  You said “sometimes they don’t have any authority to diagnose” which is irrelevant to diagnosing fabricated conditions

  17. “Daniel Prude’s Brother Called 911…”

    Clear case of fratricide.

    1. You’re making a lame attempt at humor, but it’s pretty much the truth. Never call the cops if a friend or family member is having a mental health crisis… They’ll shoot/tase/kick his ass instead of trying to deescalate the situation.

  18. FFS they put a white hood on a black man. Them scared him to death by making him think them were getting ready to lynch him.
    or
    Perhaps Daniel got undressed to take a bath and mishandled some “bath salts” in the process. Could happen.

    1. I am wondering if we can design a better spit hood that decreases the chance of aphyxiation while providing adequate protection.
      Then again the same people who blame the cops for putting on the hood probably also tend to insist we use cloth masks at all times, despite them being made of very similar materials.

      1. A billy club would do the job better. Whack someone’s knee to immobilize. Whack their jaw to stop spitting.

  19. “Excited delirium” is copspeak for “fucking n****r” no matter what the race.

    1. Again, the use of the blame all cops routine makes any meaningful change less likely. It is almost like you really don’t want change.

  20. Interesting how these citizen deaths when in police control and custody do not seem to happen anywhere else in the world.

    1. Just unreported elsewhere. Nowhere else has the press freedom that the USA has to amplify stories of minor local interest.

  21. Typo there in the final paragraph (I think):
    Prude’s case is a prime example of what policing reform activists mean when they call for hanging the role of policing so that people with guns and Tasers are not the first responders to somebody having a mental health or drug crisis.

    I think you meant “changing”.

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  23. The AMA defines “excited delirium” broadly as a state of agitation, excitability, paranoia, aggression, and apparent immunity to pain, often associated with stimulant use and certain psychiatric disorders. The signs and symptoms typically ascribed to “excited delirium” include bizarre or violent behavior, hyperactivity, hyperthermia, confusion, great strength, sweating and removal of clothing, and imperviousness to pain.

    It used to be called “Bell’s Mania”. It is not that it is believed to be imaginary, just that the specific symptomology and triggering factors are poorly understood.

    Here is one study from American Journal of Emergency Medicine-
    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.620.1614&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    1. Yes in some cases coffee or energy drinks have been suggested as a trigger. I’ve seen some college students during finals who cram and stay up for days on end with the help of energy drinks have psychotic episodes.

    2. Excited delirium syndrome is a lie. Somebody was the first to imagine it.

    3. Can you reference even one example of death from excited delirium OUTSIDE of police custody?

    4. BTW,

      That’s not a link to the AMA.

      Please provide a reference for the AMA saying ANYTHING about excited delirium.

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  25. Our towns are already going bankrupt under the costs of the police, liberals just say “we need more mental health workers” etc. etc. There are so many crazies and fools out there that need to be kept out of trouble. Whats the mental health worker going to do when the crazy start spitting at them and hitting them or just running away? They’ll call the police ! There is no solution to the rising tide of enabled nut jobs, some of which have guns, except for the police. When the police stand down you get crime spikes like what is happening in Portland, Seattle and NYC now.

    1. Mental health workers (the ones who deal with the seriously mental ill) are really good at dealing with aggressive crazy people.

  26. They could have put a blanket on him. Other than that I see nothing wrong with how the Police handled this situation.

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