Coronavirus

Trump Promotes the Outlandish Claim That COVID-19 Has Killed a 'Minuscule' Number of Americans

The assertion, which contradicts the president's own warnings about the virus, is based on a misinterpretation of CDC data.

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Last spring the White House warned that COVID-19 could kill between 1.5 million and 2.2 million Americans with "no intervention." But "with intervention," it said, the death toll would be somewhere between 100,000 and 240,000. "By very vigorously following these [social distancing] guidelines," President Donald Trump declared, "we could save more than 1 million American lives. Think of that: 1 million American lives."

Forget all that, Trump implied today by retweeting a message claiming that the official COVID-19 death toll, currently about 187,000, is off by a factor of 20. "So get this straight," says the summary of an August 29 Gateway Pundit post that was originally tweeted by Trump attorney Jenna Ellis. "Based on the recommendation of doctors [Anthony] Fauci and [Deborah] Birx the US shut down the entire economy based on 9,000 American deaths [due] to the China coronavirus." Trump thus implicitly rebuked his own COVID-19 advisers (and himself) for grossly overstating the danger posed by the disease.

As Fauci, Birx, and Trump himself should have recognized at the time, the projection of as many as 2.2 million deaths from COVID-19 in the United States was never realistic. It was based on what now seems to be an overestimate of the COVID-19 infection fatality rate, plus the demonstrably wrong assumption that Americans would carry on as usual in the face of the epidemic. The contrast of a vaguely defined "intervention" with a counterfactual "no intervention" scenario presented a false dilemma that obscured the actual choices policy makers were confronting.

Now Trump, who has offered contradictory messages about COVID-19 throughout the epidemic, has swung to another extreme that is equally at odds with reality. The claim that only 9,000 or so Americans have died from COVID-19 is based on a misinterpretation of newly released data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

As of August 22, those data indicate, "COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned" in just 6 percent of deaths attributed to the disease. The rest of the deaths involved an average of "2.6 additional conditions or causes," although those included conditions, such as pneumonia and respiratory distress syndrome, that could have been related to COVID-19. The CDC's numbers also show that COVID-19 fatalities have been concentrated among people 65 and older, who accounted for 81 percent of fatalities in the week ending April 18, when deaths tallied by the CDC peaked, and 82 percent of fatalities in the week ending August 22, when the death toll was much lower.

These patterns are consistent with something we have known for months: Older, less healthy people are especially vulnerable to COVID-19. But that does not mean COVID-19 is not actually killing them.

It is possible that some people whose deaths are attributed to COVID-19 would have died anyway from preexisting medical conditions. But judging from excess mortality calculations, particularly for people with pneumonia or flu-like symptoms, most of these patients would still be alive but for the virus. While determining which is true for any given individual can be an iffy proposition, overcounting of COVID-19 deaths is probably a less significant problem than undercounting, since virus testing was very limited in the early stages of the epidemic, and people who died at home from COVID-19 without being tested could easily have been missed.

In any case, it is clearly not reasonable to assume that every COVID-19 death involving comorbidities was not really a COVID-19 death. Yet that is what the Gateway Pundit post promoted by the president does. "Only 6% of all coronavirus deaths were related to the coronavirus alone," Joe Hoft writes. "The rest of the deaths pinned to the China coronavirus are attributed to individuals who had other serious issues going on. Also, most of the deaths are related to very old Americans." From those facts he concludes that "the number of deaths related to the China coronavirus" is "minuscule."

Another message retweeted by Trump today likewise claimed "only 6%" of people whose deaths were attributed to COVID-19 "actually died" from the disease. That message and Trump's retweet of it were removed by Twitter for violating the platform's rules, a decision that illustrates the company's scattershot attempts to police the truth of the president's posts.

The estimate of "9,000 American deaths" in the Gateway Pundit subhead retweeted by Trump seems to have been derived from the CDC's provisional death count as of August 22, which was 161,392. If you multiply that number by 6 percent, you get 9,684. But that calculation is based on the unjustifiable assumption that COVID-19 has not been the but-for cause of any deaths involving people with preexisting medical problems.

As with his rhetoric about crime and rioting, Trump wants to have it both ways with COVID-19. Republicans portray Trump as a savior whose decisive action prevented "millions" of COVID-19 deaths, a claim that relies on the unrealistic "no intervention" projection Trump endorsed in March. Yet now the president seems to think COVID-19 never presented a serious threat at all. Both propositions cannot possibly be true.

[This post has been updated to note another Trump retweet endorsing the idea that very few Americans have died from COVID-19.]

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  1. While reason is sucking dick of government stooges, and pretending the protests are peaceful despite the video evidence, you post an article disputing some number of people that died which pales in comparison to the total number of people who die every year. And make it about Trump. I hope libertarians lose. I hope democrats lose. I hope commies eat shit.

    Fuck. You. End of line.

    1. It’s interesting how the president of the United States isn’t part of government, let alone the head of it.

      1. Its interesting how “pro science” democrats deny people die.

        1. People die, so Trump isn’t at fault for all the death he causes.

          This is definitely peak… something.

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          2. The fact that you think trump created a virus is definitely peak retard. Blame him for the other 2.8 million that will die as well.

            1. I blame people for their actions. Despite all available evidence, he, practically alone, created a movement that was hostile to basic pandemic hygiene measures. People are getting shot over masks, and that is his fault, as are any deaths that his inaction has caused. The pandemic is all over the world, so there is plenty to compare his policy with.

              Right now we have lots of death and a shit economy. Whom are you trying to convince of what, again?

              1. practically alone, created a movement that was hostile to basic pandemic hygiene measures.

                Yes. He isn’t the fascist you want him to be. States don’t exist. Deep blue states like NY and NJ hang off of trumps every word.

                Your parents failed you.

                1. Everything in life has failed Tony.

                2. Poor Tony. He does use commas well, but basic logic escapes him, and his interpretation of reality is faulty. As Ronald Reagan said, “it’s not that Tony is ignorant, the problem is that he knows so much that just ain’t so”.

                  1. I saw a comment that ascribed a world wide pandemic to Trump.
                    TDS produces strange musings.
                    The planning for a lockdown began well before Trump, all they needed was an excuse. Democrats were all over the place on the issue, but wherever they were, they absolutely HAD to blame Trump.

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              2. OK, so now blame people who suffer from “lifestyle” diseases, including those who likely would have survived COVID-19 had they been healthier. Whose fault is their deaths?

              3. Despite all available evidence, he, practically alone, created a movement that was hostile to basic pandemic hygiene measures.

                “Basic pandemic hygiene measures” were justified by flattening the curve. The curve has been flattened. There is no point to them.

                The pandemic is all over the world, so there is plenty to compare his policy with.

                Indeed! As a whole, in terms of COVID death rates, the US is in the middle of the Western world. But most US deaths are concentrated in a few states, and it is therefore those states’ policies that are responsible for the massive death toll in those states.

                1. I like to remember that word, “flattened” as we live in the, “extended” pandemic. It’s clear that this virus would have tracked the normal course we know for seasonal viruses, eight to ten weeks. This virus was a fatal co-morbidity. Remarkably mild in most healthy and/or young people.

                  1. It is almost like a certain political party wants to drag out the virus for as long as possible. That’s all masks and social distancing are accomplishing.

              4. now do the ratio of deaths caused by Trump encouraging the COVID deniers, divided by the number of deaths caused by Cuomo weaponizing the infected elderly.

          3. Hey Tony, you dishonest piece of shit. Explain to me why any deaths aren’t the governors and state legislatures fault, but are instead the result of presidential actions.

            1. That’s up to voters to decide, I suppose. Clearly you have stopped believing the president has any responsibility for anything. If only Obama had figured out that the key to your support was to be feckless and incompetent.

              1. The president is not responsible for nature dumbfuck.

              2. You’re not getting out of this shitbag. Fuck your distraction attempt.

                Explain to me why any deaths aren’t the governors and state legislatures fault, but are instead the result of presidential actions.

                1. The Trump Pandemic: A blow-by-blow account of how the president killed thousands of Americans.

                  https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/trump-coronavirus-deaths-timeline.html

                  1. Seriously? You cite Slate as your source? Why not cite Pelosi or Schumer while you’re at it. You could hardly find a more biased BS source.

                  2. The certainly blames him for shit that isn’t a president’s jurisdiction, but it still doesn’t explain why those deaths aren’t the governors and state legislatures fault, but are instead the result of presidential actions.

                    1. They can be both. Why can’t they be both? Do you blame Trump for any of this even a little bit?

                    2. No Tony they can’t be both. You lost this one.

                2. Apparently even Cuomo has his head buried in Trump’s ass.

                3. And this from April:

                  Could Trump Be Criminally Liable for His Deadly Mishandling of Coronavirus? 

                  https://www.newsweek.com/could-trump-criminally-liable-his-deadly-mishandling-coronavirus-opinion-1498146

                  1. Could you be criminally liable for gross stupidity? What a moron!

                    1. Leftists believe whatever they’re told to believe, and it is the opposite of reality at this point.
                      They are a psychotic hive mind.

                      http://twitter.com/EvanMcMullin/status/1300084895776112642?s=19

                  2. Still blaming Trump for things outside his jurisdiction, and no explanation why any deaths aren’t the governors and state legislatures fault.

                    You demagogues need to make up your minds on whether you want Trump to be given those sort of powers, or not.

                  3. I’m just wondering if Newsom can be financially liable for all the businesses he destroyed.

              3. Tony, how many times will this have to be explained to you? Trump is responsible for every good thing that happened while he is President and he has no responsibility at all for anything bad that happened while is President. I mean, it could not be any more simple.

                1. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to just retake logic 101.

                  1. You’re still evading answering, you piece of shit.

                    Is logic 101 your little code for lying and evasion?
                    Answer me. Why are deaths not the governors and state legislatures fault, but are instead the result of presidential actions.

                    1. As I have patiently said, people are to blame for the things they do. Are you capable of dispassionately examining the things politicians do, or do you need some rightwing Republican propagandist flapping head to tell you what your thoughts are?

                    2. And as I have patiently said, answer the bloody question.

                2. Or, and I know this may be hard to follow, he’s responsible for the good and bad things he actually had any involvement in. And not responsible for things he can’t actually control or had any involvement in.

                  But I’m sure that’s much too simple for you and Tony to comprehend.

                3. You too, shitbag.

                  Explain to me why any deaths aren’t the governors and state legislatures fault, but are instead the result of presidential actions.

                4. And chipper runs in to prove he is totally not on a team.

              4. Gutless.

                That’s not up to the voter.

                The answer is plain: Governors.

              5. I just reread Article 2 and it says nothing about the POTUS being responsible for healthcare during a pandemic. Do you think appointing an ambassador or giving pardons would help stop the virus?

                1. The thing about democracy is we get to blame who we want to blame.

                  1. Yes you are allowed to be wrong.

                    1. It’s not so much he’s allowed to be wrong but Tony is remarkably incapable of anything else.

                  2. This is the truest statement you’ve ever made. But all it says is you true to be a fucking moron and blame someone for something they have no power over.

                    1. Only the full force of the best disease control operation in the history of the world. No power though. Definitely not a feckless moron.

              6. Clearly you have stopped believing the president has any responsibility for anything.

                There are many states in the US where deaths from COVID have been very low. Deaths are concentrated in NJ, NY, MA, CT, LA, RI, and DC. Given that they are so concentrated in a few states, that’s obviously the responsibility of those state governors, not Trump.

                If only Obama had figured out that the key to your support was to be feckless and incompetent.

                Quite right: one of Obama’s main faults was that he tried to override state responsibilities with federal policy.

                1. DID none of you get the message – dropped late Friday.

                  The CDC has just admitted that only 9200 of the 170 thousand + deaths were actually from COVID.

                  All the rest were co morbitities…. The Dems played a dangerous game, hoping to bring down Trump for the economy THEY trashed with phony science, phony numbers and mandatory masks.

                  Pelosi chose this hill to die on because she knew she couldn’t beat Trump without stuffing the ballot boxes with fraudulent mail in votes……

                  This site is filled with children… I haven’t been here in awhile, but thinking it was http://www.lewrockwell.com …. is naive.

                  This ain’t the Mises institute… but a snare of wokesters….

                  Bye….

              7. Judging his record on expanding illegal and unnecessary warfare, pandering to the insurance industry with Obamacare, and jailing exactly zero bankers while letting war criminals like Cheney and Bush (birds of a feather, I know), I’d say Barry was pretty feckless, but indeed quite competent, in his corporate water carrying. He knew where his money would be coming from.

          4. Trump hasn’t caused any deaths. Your kind have Tony. You have an ocean of blood on your hands.

            It really is high time Americans hold progressives to account for their crimes.

        2. Also how ignorant they are of statistics.

          Heart disease and cancer are the big killers of Americans.

      2. Tony, you should try to follow sometime, and at least try to read the Constitution, though I understand if they use words that are too big for you. There is no single “head” of government as it would be under your preferable form of government. There are 3 branches and the 10th amendment that pretty much lay to waste your entire view of the presidency as the sole and ultimate source of governance.

      3. It’s interesting how libtardians have done nothing but act like bone stupid retards for 4 years and think they stand a chance in 60 days.

    2. I wonder – when was the last time we had a purely political assassination of an otherwise random person?

      The shooter identified someone as a Trump supporter and killed him for that reason.
      He had an accomplice who immediately collected the (physical evidence) shell casings after the shooting and fled.

      This was not self-defense, it was not an argument that escalated, it was not heat-of-the-moment impulse: it was a planned hit on someone fitting the description of their generic political opponent.

      Now the left is busy trying to completely absolve themselves, including the murderer, of any wrongdoing.

      Instead they are blaming Trump and “white supremacists” (all non leftists, but specifically conservatives) for “inciting” all of their violence over the last 3 months.

      You cannot have a society with a large segment of people who blame their own bad actions as being caused by their political opponents.
      If a person cannot control their behavior because of how others “make” them feel, that person cannot function in society and needs to be confined to a mental hospital.

      And it’s pretty much the entire Left’s mindset right now.

      1. I haven’t heard about this, do you have a link?

        1. Pretty much all of twitter

        2. The Portland shooting of the guy affiliated with Patriot Prayer, early Sunday morning.

          1. Heavy.com’s link to it, with video-containing links: https://heavy.com/news/2020/08/portland-shooting-death-video/

            I expect Reason, like the rest of media that I saw when searching for a link for you, to mention frequently and often that the deceased was a “Far Right Trump Supporter,” and only maybe mentioning that he was basically executed.

            1. Thanks Gray.

              That is fucking horrible.

      2. But who cares everybody dies.

        1. Yes, he was libtarded. It’s the white version of saying it’s okay because I felt micro agression racism and felt the need to kill everyone in the room thus absolving you of all guilt.

    3. Let’s be clear. Reason is not a libertarian publication.
      Yes. Fuck them. But they’re as libertarian as Mitt Romney is Republican.

      Clearly the president is making a verifiable statement which is supported by CDC data regarding excess death median age of death and comorbidity info. The death toll is obviously and flagrantly inflated. Period full stop. Reason is a swamp creature. Period. Full stop.

      1. thanks for the heads up… I stopped by today to see what’s up… it’s been years since I posted anything here…
        what a bunch of kids…. this is almost as bad as Huffpost and The Hill.

        Glad to know somebody over here is trying to educate the snowflakes.

      2. Used to be Reason.
        Now it it TReason.

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    6. Getting your ass kicked in the culture war by better people throughout your disaffected, bigoted, miserable life has made you quite cranky.

      The only two things you have to look forward to are (1) more of the same and (2) replacement.

      Sounds like a shitty way to live. But you deserve it. So open wider, clinger.

    7. Amen. Reason has lost its reason lately.

  2. Great way to bury the lede. Instead of focusing on Trump‘s misstatement, isn’t the more important point that 94% of Covid fatalities involve 2 1/2 other medical conditions as well, and that Covid itself is fatal standing alone in only 6% of cases? Shouldn’t we be identifying those other medical conditions and devising means by which we can best insulate persons having those conditions from the virus? Instead of the news media suggesting that anybody who comes anywhere near this particular virus is doomed?

    1. That doesn’t allow democrat and some republican governors to shut down their economies all willie nillie.

      6% of the cases being fully the result of Covid is fucking huge. How can anyone sit there and say that the 187,000 number is in any way accurate given the possibility that fully 175,000 of those could have died anyways?

    2. What possible rational reason is there only to care about covid deaths for people with no underlying conditions?

      Is there a certain point in a person’s life, or a certain state of health, at which it’s OK to just shoot them, because they were gonna die eventually anyway?

      1. I asked you two weeks to define how many deaths were worth it. You said 200k. I asked if you thought mandated diets and workouts were the next step. Now you say they don’t matter. So apparently you are inconsistent.

        Or you’re just a partisan dummy.

        1. Why don’t you want to talk about the disease? Why are you justifying the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans because you wish they didn’t affect Donald fucking Trump’s poll numbers?

          1. holy fucking shit you have dug your hole.

            I’ve talked about disease plenty. Diseases have been around since humankind began. They didn’t originate with a US president in 2020 dummy. Why won’t you admit this fact?

            Only retards scream trump is responsible for 180k dead. Most of who didn’t fail basoc biology recognize this as a once in a few decade disease and realize the low numbers and stay on with our lives.

            Your parents failed you.

            1. 200,000 dead Americans is not a low number by any count. I don’t know what you think you’d like to accomplish with gaslighting so obvious. If you want some lessons on good gaslighting, come talk to me sometime.

              1. 3 million die a year. Eve assuming all 200k are unique individuals that would have lived the year, it is under a 10÷ increase in yearly death totals. Most of them being over the age of 65. That is under one standard deviation of yearly death numbers moron.

                Your parents have failed you.

              2. You of all people shouldn’t be accusing anyone else of gaslighting. Hypocrite.

                Now, explain to us why those deaths aren’t the governors and state legislatures fault, but are instead the result of presidential actions.

                1. They’re the fault of any one in a position to mitigate the problem who failed through incompetence or negligence to do so. Trump is by far the most troublesome player among them all. He peddles snake oil from the White House briefing room, says a miracle will solve the problem, stokes social unrest over fucking masks, and if we ever do have a vaccine, 40% of the people won’t even take it because they think it’s all a conspiracy, thanks to Trump.

                  Notably, what Trump isn’t arguing, even as many of you are, is that it’s not actually a problem in the first place. You’re ahead of your skis on the old Trump cock gobbling there.

                  Maybe some governors got things wrong too. I’m gonna guess you don’t agree that among them were any Republicans?

                  1. We will have wasted money on vaccines because they’re likely to do squat because this virus is going to lose its zip. We should have focused on the treatments.

                    And enough with the masks. I’m of the opinion if you wear mask because you think it works, you’re an idiot. Move on.

                  2. Fuck, you’re not even good at evasion, but that’s all that you do.

                    This: “Trump is… most troublesome player… peddles snake oil… says a miracle… stokes social unrest over fucking masks… all a conspiracy”
                    Is just calling names and making conspiratorial implications in a pathetic attempt not to answer.

                    So answer the question, shithead, because your entire argument is based on the answer.

                    Why are the deaths not the governors and state legislatures fault, but are instead largely the result of presidential actions?

                    1. They are the fault of anyone who had the ability to do good and who did bad instead. Throw some governors into the pile for all I care. Just stop sucking so much Trump cock. It’s unseemly.

                    2. Answer the question Tony, I’m not letting you get away with your bullshit anymore.

                    3. The CDC is a federal agency. The CDC is who studies disease and prevents them from killing lots of people. It’s right there in the name.

                      Which governor appoints the head of the CDC? Which governor has authority to deal with the jurisdiction affected by a pandemic (meaning everywhere)?

                      Cuomo made mistakes. Doesn’t mean Trump is pure as angel snow. I seriously don’t know why you’re going down this path when everyone knows that you will hold Joe Biden accountable the moment he takes office.

                      Go try to sell your ridiculous bullshit to some 4 year-old who might buy it.

                    4. The CDC shit is a dodge, governors dont have to listen.

                      You dodge because you know you’re wrong Tony.

                    5. The cdc doesn’t prevent, it mitigates you fucking idiot.

                      No government promised you immortality.

                      Your parents have failed you.

                    6. The correct response is “Because Trump is a fascist authoritarian who failed to fascistically assert his authoritarianism and force everyone in the planet USA to jail sick people in nursing homes like the brilliant and capable Cuomo.”

                      Trump is guilty of not being the authoritarian they claimed he was, so Trump is solely responsible for making them look like fools.

        2. He’s a partisan dummy. And they have to go. They are too much a threat to the rest of us. The riots alone are proof of that. Now ‘re also seeing what they have in store for us if they get control.

          It’s us or them. The sooner we all admit it, the sooner we can figure out how to deal with our Marxist problem. If we do it sooner, we can likely spare a lot more of them.

          1. Wait until after the election. I’m sure the Marxists will be just as obliging to play then.

            1. Shhh – chemjeff and sarc will be along to bitch that you want to murder your political opponents.
              White knight will then deny that any political motivation can be assigned unless there is a signed and notarized confession on video, chemjeff will come in to say that there exists a more important hypothetical reality in which the Trump supporter murdered the leftist, and sarc will say that cops are worse and both sides are exactly equal in executing political opponents.

              1. LOL….too funny.

      2. My wife’s aunt died with coronavirus Tony. She was in her 80s and had pneumonia and had earlier in the year had a stroke she never recovered from. Does it not strike you as a bit disingenuous to implying that coronavirus is a death plague that will kill us all when just about the only people it kills are people who were already on death’s door? Is shutting down the country and forcing everyone to wear face masks a reasonable way to combat a disease that is, on the whole, not resulting in more fatalities than there would otherwise be? Pretending that everyone is at risk means that no special care is applied to the people who actually ARE at risk. Low risk populations should be attempting to circulate the disease as much as possible to reach herd immunity. This isn’t ebola where young healthy people die 50% of the time. It’s an influenza tier infection. It should be treated like one.

        1. Okay so you are offering a brand new ethos that we’ve never had before, maybe in the history of mankind, so do pardon me for not accepting it as if it’s the most logical thing in the world:

          Let the old and infirm die, because it might be good for the economy.

          Remind yourself never ever to bitch about your tax rate or some college kid denying free speech. With this moral premise, any of your problems are no longer remotely important, I’m sure you agree.

          1. Hey dummy… the old and infirm do die. They die every fucking week. The average death rate for those over 70 prior to covid was 13% a year. With covid it is… 13% a year.

            Your parents failed you.

            1. So now are you trying to get me to believe that covid kills nobody?

              How would you like it if your demographic were particularly susceptible to a disease, and people argued for letting you die of it because it might help the president’s poll numbers. And imagine the president was a Democrat!

              1. no, I’m trying to teach you how life works, that people die dummy. Old people die every God damn year. Many of them die of diseases like pneumonia.

                Your parents have failed you.

                1. No, you’re trying to argue that people dying every day is an excuse for Trump’s incompetence. When this is done you’ll be right back here whining about your tax rate or mean transgender people or what the fuck ever, totally forgetting you used to argue that nothing matters because everyone dies eventually.

                  It’s just Donald Trump. He’s never going to reciprocate, no matter how wet and sweet your beej is for him.

                  1. Who is bitching about tax rates or “mean transgender people”?

                    What is wrong with you?

                    1. If death doesn’t matter then neither do your high taxes.

                    2. He’s wrong and needs a smoke screen.

              2. If my demographic were particularly susceptible, I would self-isolate, social distance, and wear the masks to the greatest extent possible. What I would not do is expect others to completely disrupt their lives solely for the sake of my demographic. It’s called taking personal responsibility and not being a selfish prick.

                1. So how many Americans do you suppose are old or have pre-existing conditions?

              3. “How would you like it if your demographic were particularly susceptible to a disease, and people argued for letting you die of it because it might help the president’s poll numbers. And imagine the president was a Democrat!”

                The Dems LIONIZE Cuomo who did EXACTLY that, mind you

          2. “Let the old and infirm die, because it might be good for the economy.”

            I bet you’d be pissed if a governor who stuck the sick in nursing homes for no reason then decided to brag about how great he did dealing with the virus, Tony.

          3. I believe you missed the sentence where he said the people at risk are not getting needed special care under the current nuclear option, because it treats everyone as having the same risk instead of focusing on those most at risk.

            You see, you have to read every word, and then parse its meaning…it’s a vocabulary and grammar thing.

      3. Is there a certain point in a person’s life, or a certain state of health, at which it’s OK to just shoot them, because they were gonna die eventually anyway?

        Yes.

        1. Without their consent, I mean.

          Either be a libertarian or be a fascist. Then live with the consequences. You don’t get to tell old people to lock themselves up till they die. Got it?

          Don’t try to be pragmatic. It’s an embarrassing spectacle.

          1. “You don’t get to tell old people to lock themselves up till they die. Got it?”

            Isn’t that what we’re doing now, though? Try to visit a nursing home.

            1. Tony wants the lock ups extended to healthy people while calling others fascist.

            2. Luckily we are not a libertarian society.

      4. Because it means people under 65 who are healthy can go back to their normal lives.

        1. Unless they work in a hospital or have a relative over 65 or get sick themselves.

          1. People in hospitals wear masks. Don’t visit your old relatives. If you get sick for any reason you shouldn’t go to work. 100,000 people die every year from the flu and no one cares.

      5. Is there a certain point in a person’s life, or a certain state of health, at which it’s OK to just shoot them, because they were gonna die eventually anyway?

        No, but there is “a certain point in a person’s life, or a certain state of health” where countries don’t spend any money to prolong their life. That metric is the dollars per quality-adjusted year of life (QALY) spent. In Europe, that’s about $30k, in the US, that’s about $100k. We are several orders of magnitude beyond that for COVID.

        If you spend more than that amount, you end up killing more people than you save. The COVID countermeasures likely will result in millions of deaths over the coming years.

        1. You’re more patient with idiots than I am.

          1. Tony is really a resource: he condenses the current talking points of the Democratic establishment and the current misconceptions and unscientific beliefs of progressives into succinct posts. Great practice for facing the hostile world of self-righteous, selfish American progressives that make up the US upper-middle and upper class.

        2. You but those deaths will be essentially uncountable, so people like Tony will never have to own up to it, and can persist in their lies and deceptions. You’re expecting him to take his head out of his ass, where it not only lives, but he enjoys the view.

          What is really funny, is that people like Tony are actually the best thing that ever happened to Trump because people look at the Tonys of the world, and ANTIFA, and the “peacefully arsonist protests” and think well fuck that. Even the Democrats have figured out it is not playing well in the swing states…and have started to walk it back, like the transparently hypocritical pieces of shit they are.

          What’s even funnier is that progressives are turning to a corporate-owned fucktard with dementia just because they hate Trump; 83% of Democrats want single-payer healthcare, but Biden has already said fuck you. A huge majority want legalized pot, but Pharma-owned Joe says no. Joe pushed the crime bill that incarcerates all these blacks for bullshit weed offenses. And on and on – their whole platform is “not Trump” – they don’t even have to give constituents anything…just making sure their billionaire donors are well taken care of.

          And I don’t even like Trump at all, but TDS is not a justification for 90% of the retarded shit coming out of these peoples’ mouths.

      6. no, of course not, when we get to single payer there will be a medical review board (i.e. “death panel”) to decide who gets treatment, and those with shorter expected lifetimes due to advanced age and existing health conditions will be humanely offered hospice accommodations.

      7. Talk to Democrat Governor of New York. “old people are going to die”
        That’s his explanation as to why he forced Nursing homes to accept Covid positive patients.

        President Trump was not involved.

        1. Stop – you’re making Tony’s ears hurt.

    3. isn’t the more important point that 94% of Covid fatalities involve 2 1/2 other medical conditions as well, and that Covid itself is fatal standing alone in only 6% of cases?

      No. Because that’s completely wrong, and still fails to grasp how the data is tabulated. When cause of death is recorded, they’re supposed to list all causes, not just independent causes. “Covid” doesn’t literally kill people by itself; it causes fatal conditions like heart failure or fluid in the lungs. So when they list covid + heart failure, that doesn’t mean that covid wasn’t fatal on its own. (If you’re shot and bleed to death, the causes of death are gunshot and exsanguination. That doesn’t mean that the bullet wasn’t fatal on its own because two causes of death are listed.)

      1. This is just wrong. Many medical examiners have said they are listing covid ordinary without evidence. A recent cdc audit showed them listing covid as death on car accident deaths. Etc.

        You’re plain lying or ignorant.

      2. David, you are entirely wrong. When heart failure is listed it is because the diagnosis already existed.

    4. No, that isn’t the more important point. People are being absurdly dumb about this. Before that statistic was published, everyone understood that Covid could cause your lungs to fail (remember the whole ventilator problem early on in the pandemic?). But for whatever reason, seeing “respiratory failure” alongside “Covid” on a death certificate makes people assume that it isn’t a real Covid death? “Respiratory failure” was literally present in over 50,000 Covid deaths, and that is just one common co-morbidity THAT EVERYONE ALREADY KNEW WAS CAUSED BY COVID.

  3. “Republicans portray Trump as a savior whose decisive action prevented “millions” of COVID-19 deaths, a claim that relies on the unrealistic “no intervention” projection Trump endorsed in March.”

    I don’t know any Republicans who see Trump as a savior.

    There are plenty of Republicans who see Trump’s steadfast refusal to impose a national lockdown as key to keeping the economy from collapsing any more than it has–and it’s clear from the unemployment data that the states that imposed lockdown orders are suffering economically because of it. I don’t think Trump is a savior for protecting the rest of the country from New York style lockdowns. I just think he made the right decision over the objections of progressives.

    1. Yeah he did a great job with the economy.

      1. If only he was the fascist you hoped he was he could have stopped the lock downs.

        1. Then he couldn’t brag about having “only” 200,000 dead.

          When presented with a set of facts and realities, you immediately bundle together whatever nonsensical horseshit you can steal from propagandist blogs in order to protect the feelings of Donald fucking Trump.

          It’s not a choice between fixing the problem and fixing the economy. They are the same problem. Trump just wants you to think they are not because he wants to escape blame for having no plan. And he doesn’t, and he hasn’t implemented one, hundreds of thousands of Americans are dead, and the economy is in the worst shitter of all time.

          At some point don’t you wonder why you are bothering defending this?

          1. The only dumbfuck bundling things together is you blaming deaths and lockouts on someone who didn’t contribute to either you fucking retard. We live in a federalist government. Every state government had the initial supplies of ventilators. Orders for masks and lock downs were regional as they should be (and even then should not have been implemented)

            Your parents failed you.

            1. Sounds like a great argument for why the federalism system is a failure.

              For someone with absolutely no responsibility for a national crisis, Trump sure does inject his presence into it at every available opportunity.

              1. He has to. As there are so many incompetent democrat governors and mayors. It’s you Tony, and everyone like you.

                You’re to blame. You really should admit this to yourself and finally do the right thing.

                1. He has to inject himself into something he has no role to play in. Governors are responsible until they aren’t.

                  I may have to be done with this place. Trump can do no wrong. That’s the only argument most of you have about anything.

                  1. Awwww, don’t go away mad…..

                    Haha.

                  2. We get it you’re wrong and a coward.

                  3. Stop getting our hopes up – I am sure you can do something more productive with your time instead of posting on this board 20 to 50 times for each story.

                    For example, you could give yourself a swirly.

              2. Because North Dakota must respond exactly the same as New York City?
                One size fits all protocals.

                You do realize how self defeating that would be? Right?

          2. he wants to escape blame for having no plan. And he doesn’t, and he hasn’t implemented one

            You’re such a mendacious piece of shit. How can you even stand existing?
            You squeal about the president impinging on areas of individual state control, and then you blame him for not implementing policies that are the states jurisdiction.

            1. Trump has assumed more unilateral power than any president in history. Not even the most federalism-friendly president would deny he had the right to act under emergency powers to deal with a fucking global pandemic.

              Again, why is someone who supposedly has no role to play in this always in front of a camera trying to play a role?

              Your argument has lost. That is why you are reduced to arguing that the president doesn’t have any power and his hands are tied. What utter unbelievable horseshit. How do you psychotic fuckers sleep at night?

              1. Tony, everything you said is bullshit, as usual. The thing is, your kind have finally pushed too far. We’re past talking, bargaining, or much of anything else, thanks to trash like you. You never ever stop.

                When you find your back against a wall because of your sedition and treason, you will have only yourself to blame.

                1. That may very well be the case if “libertarians” can’t stop spending their time peeing their little girl panties about socialism and sucking Trump cock long enough to notice how many of them are calling for genocide and dictatorship.

                  1. You just lie and lie and lie and then squeal and scream about sucking Trump’s cock whenever your called out on it. Never once providing a coherent, honest argument.

                    You’re so shit at this. Media Matters needs to get it’s fifty cents back.

                    1. SotW calls for the murder of his political opponents pretty much in every post.

                      Of course I’m the bad guy for not sucking enough Trump cock.

                    2. Its more the trolling that makes you a bad guy.

              2. Biden’s first big campaign commercial promised a national mask mandate.
                And it’s already hurting him in the polls.

            2. “You’re such a mendacious piece of shit. How can you even stand existing? You squeal about the president impinging on areas of individual state control, and then you blame him for not implementing policies that are the states jurisdiction.”

              He doesn’t care whether he’s right or wrong.

              He’s just emoting.

              This is what happens when people become convinced that their feelings so important that they override the facts.

              1. Only logical people think that 200,000 dead Americans is no big deal as long as the president has an (R) after his name.

                Alt-right logic. Now in handy microwaveable bags!

                1. “Only logical people think that 200,000 dead Americans is no big deal”

                  You can’t point to where I said that because you’re a stupid asshole.

                2. Were 100,000 Americans dead a big deal in 1969?

                  1. You tell me.

                    1. So you’re afraid to answer.

                    2. I have already opined that hundreds of thousands of deaths is a big deal, which I cannot say for most of the other posters here.

                3. Quit tossing your own salad.

          3. Then he couldn’t brag about having “only” 200,000 dead.

            The lockdowns did nothing to stop the spread of COVID.

            1. And unicorns fart skittles. Who on earth ever gave you ridiculous morons the permission to just assert things that are the opposite of facts?

              1. Unicorns either do not exist or we have yet to find one. If they do exist, it is possible (however unlikely) that they fart skittles.

              2. You can look it up yourself: the reductions in transmission preceded the lockdowns and there is no consistent relationship between lockdowns and spread across jurisdictions or countries.

                Hence, the lockdowns did nothing to stop the spread of COVID.

                So Tony, stop spreading lies.

      2. California and New York did a terrible job with their economies–because of the lockdowns.

        The unemployment rate in New York is 15.9%

        The unemployment rate in California is 13.9%

        The unemployment rate in Utah is 4.5%

        https://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

        States like Nevada and Hawaii, that are heavily dependent on tourism, suffered regardless, but generally speaking, the earlier, longer, and harsher the state’s lockdown orders, the harder it was on their economy–and the higher the unemployment rate is today.

        Shutting down the economy was hard on the economy–who knew?! Who are progressives so often mystified by the facts?

        Meanwhile, it’s unclear whether shutting down the economy will ultimately have any impact on the number of people who are exposed to the virus. People will continue to be infected so long as we don’t have a widely distributed vaccine.

        To suggest that locking down the economy and willfully imposing high unemployment on your own state to keep the rate of infection down is a good thing requires you to assume that everyone cares more about what you do more than they care about their own economic well-being.

        It’s an opinion based on a bad assumption.

        To willfully impose high unemployment on your own state unnecessarily–without the benefit of it ultimately preventing people from being exposed to the virus anyway–that isn’t a matter of opinion. That’s just stupid.

        President Trump was smart not to be as stupid as governors like Cuomo and Newsom, and those Americans who don’t live in states like California and New York should reward him for being smart enough to let states set their own standards.

        1. Tony doesn’t care as long as he gets to “Own the Cons”. Well, and anybody else that he disagrees with politically.

          1. It’s all emotion.

            He just comes here to tell us about his feelings because he thinks their more important than facts, reasonableness, consequences, . . . anything really!

            How Tony feels is more important to him than anything, and if it isn’t more important than anything to us, too, then we’re just a bunch of fascist idiots who just want people to die.

            1. There is literally nothing cuter than alt-righters talking about reason and logic. It’s especially droll when the sum total of their logic bomb is “Trump is not the corrupt incompetent fascist clown he claims to be.”

              1. LOLGF. You voted for Hillary. And with Hillary anyone else is the lesser evil.

                1. You certainly did your fucking best finding the exception to the rule. Well done.

              2. “Incompetent fascist clown” should be your moniker, Tony.

              3. There it is. Just because someone doesn’t reflexively suck the Democrat nominees ass they’re an alt-righter. What a disgusting bigoted fuck you are.

        2. Nevada has by far the worst employment change due to covid. The states with the biggest cities also have high numbers. But even Republican governors started implementing lockdown policies when they saw the numbers of people dying in their states, so are some republicans incompetent and/or evil too?

          Looks like the economy was hardest hit where tourism is big and where people are most densely living. Looks like political leaders adopt the same measures when faced with irrefutable dead people on their watch.

          But it could be that alone among all political leaders on earth, Trump is the only good and smart one. Which is why obviously his numbers are the best in the world… just let me check… on dear, the US has some of the most lax lockdowns on earth and a terrible economy anyway.

          1. States like Nevada and Hawaii, that are heavily dependent on tourism, suffered regardless, but generally speaking, the earlier, longer, and harsher the state’s lockdown orders, the harder it was on their economy–and the higher the unemployment rate is today.

            —-Ken Shultz

            Nevada has by far the worst employment change due to covid.

            —-Tony

            Actually, New York’s unemployment rate is higher than Nevada’s.
            You didn’t look at the link? Not surprising. Why bother with facts when you have no intention of using them?

            Meanwhile, Nevada’s unemployment rate is because of the implosion of the tourism industry. New York and California’s unemployment rates are because of the lockdowns. Not because their economy is all but completely dependent on tourism.

            The reason you offer no rational response is because you can’t. You’re probably not smart enough to put a reasonable response together. At least, I can’t remember seeing you do so . . . ever. Instead, you accuse people of not caring about 200,000 dead Americans, like a stupid asshole.

            1. You care more about state employment numbers than you do death rates. That much you’ve made plain.

              But you’ve never cared about such macro trivialities as employment data, right? You’re libertarians, not social engineers.

              But it is an election year. Which is why the only argument I’ve been presented with on this entire thread is “Orange man good.” Why fucking bother?

              1. “You care more about state employment numbers than you do death rates.”

                Tony isn’t smart enough to understand the numbers I posted below or that the lockdowns have been ineffective in keeping the virus from spreading–and will continue to be ineffective months and months before a vaccine becomes widely available.

                Tony might have argued that the real reason for the lockdowns was to keep ICU beds available, but he apparently isn’t smart enough to make that argument either.

                Again, the reason he fails to make rational arguments is because he can’t. It’s beyond his ability. He regurgitates propaganda and emotes because that’s all he’s capable of doing.

        3. “Shutting down the economy was hard on the economy–who knew?! Who are progressives so often mystified by the facts?”

          Progressive are equally confused by, and hostile to, market economics–as they are by the concept of earning rewards in life. For many of them, the “economy” is just this thing that the government allows to happen, and should be manipulated to achieve whatever feel-good priorities are popular at the moment. Just like “jobs” are seen only as a pay check, not an exchange of value.

          1. Yeah, economics is definitely another thing that mystifies them. Supply and demand?! Only religious people believe in that!!!

            This is even more basic though. They can’t seem to comprehend the fact that shutting down the economy . . . shut down the economy.

            At some point, reasoning with them becomes a stupid thing to do. Why bother arguing with people who can’t comprehend the fact that shutting down the economy shut down the economy?

        4. California had the earliest lockdowns and the first mask mandates. And now has the most cases.

      3. Man you’re some of piece of work.

        The economy was flying.

    2. Actually it was Trumps steadfast refusal to take COVID-19 seriously that dragged this thing out during the summer.
      Some correlate the current drop in COVID-19 cases to Trump FINALLY, sorta endorsing mask use. Yes, the percentage of mask use has gone up, and COVID-19 rates have gone down.

      1. “Actually it was Trumps steadfast refusal to take COVID-19 seriously that dragged this thing out during the summer.”

        What do you mean by “take seriously”?

        Are you taking the lockdown orders’ impact on the economy seriously? Do you not take 30 million people losing their jobs in six weeks seriously?

        “Some correlate the current drop in COVID-19 cases to Trump FINALLY, sorta endorsing mask use. Yes, the percentage of mask use has gone up, and COVID-19 rates have gone down.”

        “Some” is a weasel word. Who are these people who think that the world won’t wear a mask because President Trump doesn’t wear them, and why do they think it?

        Do they think people won’t exit a burning building unless Trump leaves before them?

        I suspect there are millions of Americans who would be reluctant to wear masks regardless of whether President Trump wore them sooner or at all–just because they don’t like wearing them.

      2. The unemployment rate in New York is 15.9%

        The unemployment rate in Utah is 4.5%

        https://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

        The primary difference is that New York locked its economy down and Utah didn’t.

        Do you have any evidence that Utah will suffer a higher percentage of infected people than New York because they didn’t lock down their economy?

        1. P.S. Utah appears to have a higher proportion of their population urbanized (90.6%) than the state of New York (87.9%).

          https://www.icip.iastate.edu/tables/population/urban-pct-states

          If the percentage of infected people pans out about the same (before a vaccine becomes generally available), then what did New York get for their lockdown other than an unemployment rate that three times the size of Utah’s?

          1. You were probably worried that I was just gonna tell you how I feel about Trump “not taking things seriously”, whatever that means, but I was actually looking for the infection rate by state data.

            Utah has 1,650 cases per 100,000 people.

            New York has 1,792 cases per 100,000 people.

            That’s from the CDC

            https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases

            So, again, thanks to our Lord and Savior, Donald Trump, we didn’t suffer the infliction of a nationwide lockdown order. And because he didn’t, the rest of the country isn’t suffering an unemployment rate like the progressive paradise of New York, at 15.9%. Because President Trump “didn’t take COVID-19 seriously” [refused to impose a nationwide lockdown on the economy], states like Utah enjoy an unemployment rate that’s a third of what they’re suffering in California and New York.

            P.S. Why do progressives always seem to respond to facts and logic by telling us how they feel about President Trump?

      3. This is so fucking hilarious, because the only places that are still dealing with covid are the ones that actually flattened the curve. That’s actually been the entire point of this whole fucking charade, and when they actually do it, you complain that the crisis is dragging on longer than it needs to.

        No shit, we’re trying to flatten the curve with a steamroller, and we’re only doing it to help Joe Biden. It’s disgusting.

      4. You misspelled the WHO.

      5. JFC. Do these people actually think this?

      6. Californians were already wearing masks then the recent case surge followed the mass protest super spreader event by two weeks.

        The news media are trying desperately to trace a COVID-19 infection trail from Sturgis. And Germany shut down an anti-lockdown protest for not following the lockdown orders against large gatherings. But BLM protests are never linked to the surge this summer.

    3. https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/30/donald-trump-evangelicals-god-1294578

      “‘Only God could deliver such a savior to our nation,’ campaign manager Brad Parscale says, echoing recent comments from other top aides.“

  4. The media increasingly treat us like we cannot see videos, cannot read, can’t interpret a chart, (or see when a chart is bullshit) cannot put 2+2 together, and cannot form an opinion without some guy in the White House to help us. It’s breathtakingly insulting. And getting tiring.

    1. For 35% of the population, they can’t do any of that. That is why they believe the Fox bull.

      1. You’re so smart. Haha.

        Wow.

  5. Another “bury the lede” comment. — Hopefully you can see that shutting down the economy and destroying the livelihoods of millions based on a *contributing factor* — and a minority contributing factor at that — is far more egregious than shutting down the personal and economic liberties of these millions for a virus that killed 180,000.

    I expect Reason and libertarians to remain focused on the liberty/property seizures made unilaterally by the executive, and to take a stat like the one introduced by the CDC to emphasize its obsurdity.

    Instead, you use it to critique the use of the work “minuscule” to describe the fraction of deaths caused by COVID-19.

    I can get commentary like that from Sandy Cortez’s twitter feed.

    1. EXACTLY.

    2. Orange.Man.Bad.

  6. Yeah? What do you expect? Trump is the moronic liar who calls his 2.5% GDP pre-COVID economy the “greatest economy in history”.

    It’s like numbers don’t mean anything to Trump and his cult. Just make a ridiculous claim and stand by it.

    1. Not even worth bothering. You call everyone a cultist but you always use the same tired talking points and rhetoric.

      1. Hes just a bit of shit eating away from being sqrsly

      2. A cult does things like blame someone else when the numbers are so bad that you can’t substitute fake numbers.

        Example – the enormous spending and deficits that Trump has run up.

        Matt Welch writes a devastating article Friday on the massive and unprecedented spending of Trump/GOP and you cultists try to blame someone else.

        1. A cult does things like blame someone else when the numbers are so bad that you can’t substitute fake numbers.

          That is literally what you’re doing instead of even admitting states or congress exists dummy.

        2. Kiddie Raper, it’s your allies rioting, and raging in the streets, not mine. It will be good when you and your friends are put down for your crimes.

          1. Oh look who is here. The Grand Wizard of the Trump Cult Klan. Don’t you have a rally at Stone Mountain to get to?

          2. And Bernie Sanders couldn’t spend $4 trillion/yr more than his predecessor like The Con Man has.

            You know why? Only a true Con Man could con your cult minds with by making you drunk with Aborto-Freak justices and bigoted policies.

            1. About your statement you made… who is blaming spending on everyone but those who have the purse? Did you learn about impoundment yet?

    2. Trumps daily briefings consist of people feeding him info in the form of pictures (stated by many who have left the White House). Draw a better picture and Trump follows you. Our president is a functional illiterate.

  7. 183,000/330,000,000 x 100 = 0.06%. So even if it wasn’t 9000 deaths and we accept all those as COVID related the number could still be considered a minuscule amount of the population. Just saying.

    1. You are explicitly OK with the US government allowing maybe a million or more deaths on the very shaky premise that it would be better for GDP.

      1. 3 million people die every year sweetie. We could probably extend some of those lives if we dedicated every dollar to Healthcare. So how much is each life worth dummy?

        1. Okay well I’m glad I never have to hear about your fucking taxes again since nothing matters and it’s nobody’s responsibility to do anything.

          1. Just kill yourself. You have no value.

            1. I think Shitlord here is the most honest of the Trump cultists. He just lays it out bare, what he believes: kill all the non-believers.

              1. He is the Savonarola of the Trump Cult.

                1. Savonarola pushed for religious reform and Republicanism.

                  He fought against despotic rule and spoke on behalf of the poor.

              2. Who do you consider a Trump cultist?

                1. Everyone. He is pathetic.

                  1. I was hoping he would actually name names, but I’m betting you’re closer to the mark.

              3. neutral chipper continuing to show he has no teams.

      2. A million more deaths than what? Because 99% of people who die with COVID-19 wouldn’t have lived another six months anyhow. It doesn’t seem reasonable to say that just because someone died with coronavirus that they died because of coronavirus, but that’s clearly what doomsayers waving around the “180k americans KILLED!” line are implying. No one is saying that we should collectively throw grandma into the volcano but a little nuance goes a long way.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jltnBOrCB7I

        Here’s some classic Milton Friedman dismantling the hypothesis that a human life is worth spending infinite amounts of money to save. By not destroying the country and by thinking intelligently about risks and focusing safety measures on at-risk populations a lot more lives could actually be saved than with perfunctory mask wearing and ruinous lockdowns.

      3. It was never going to result in a million or more deaths. Can you post without unscientific hyperbole?

        1. Trump claimed it would have if not for his actions. So some of you are lying or Trump is lying or maybe you all are because your argument is so dementedly week.

          1. Tony, you’re a piece of shit. Day after day, people here try to straighten you out, but you never listen.

            Your impertinence unacceptable.

            1. But I can’t help but find it heartwarming watching you talk about all the political opponents you want to kill.

            2. Yeah Tony, your “impertinence”.
              You should know your place.

              Look at all the happy followers of Trump.
              Its not a cult Tony. They are all happy.
              Step out of line and you should be thrown in jail for Treason.
              You SHOULD fear the blacks, Hispanics, Mexicans, Chinese, Liberals, Union members (other than Police union of course that’s a good one), immigrants, universal health care, science, most of Hollywood, Europeans (not Russians!), Canadians, Arabs, Persians, Africans, LBGQT, dependent women … on and on. Not to worry, Trump will save us.

              Now we all just have to work together to save Wall Street. Those poor souls are suffering.

              1. Everything is so terrible and unfair.

                1. I’ll be sure to warm up your titty milk in time for Biden’s victory speech.

              2. You think everyone who disagrees with you is a Trump follower so why should any of us take you seriously?

                1. Just the ones who parrot the exact same film-flam coming out of the White House the day it comes out.

                  Trump’s strategy is to let everyone get infected in the hopes that it will be better for the economy and hence his poll numbers. The policy out of the executive branch of the US government is to let the maximum number of Americans die. The only reason for anyone here to support the by-definition worst possible approach to this problem is because they have Trump’s cock lodged in their throats.

          2. Tony where did soldier in his comment say “Trump claimed it would have saved millions if not for his actions”? One can claim that it was never going to be millions of deaths while also calling Trump on his bullshit of saving millions of lives.

            Why when someone posts a viewpoint that is contrary to your political beliefs do you bring it back to Trump (even when Trump was not even mentioned)? Or why do you assume that when someone doesn’t align with your viewpoints do you assume they are a Trump supporter?

      4. Show me one source that has not been retracted or discounted that still estimates a million people would have died without shutting down the economy? Just one.

        1. “Donald Trump’s mouth hole”

          1. It’s almost like we don’t just blindly believe everything that comes out of his mouth.

            In fact, the only people who seem to believe every word he tweets and spits, are retarded fucking leftist like you.

        2. Show me a study that says the shutdown had no affect on death rates?

          1. Long term or short term? Let’s see if you know the actual argument.

          2. The lockdowns led to human misery.

            And again, stop being a smug lazy prick and actually look it up.

            There are several stories and articles that point to this monumental error rotes in panic endnote science.

            1. rooted

      5. You are explicitly OK with the US government allowing maybe a million or more deaths on the very shaky premise that it would be better for GDP.

        Neither you nor politicians who favor lockdowns have explained how their policies prevent deaths. Your belief is unscientific, politically motivated drivel.

  8. 187,000/330,000,0000 = 0.00057$ (if I did my math right).

    That is absolutely a “miniscule number of Americans”, in just shear numbers. Do better Jacob.

    1. How many were killed in Benghazi?

      1. benghazi was a virus?

        1. In a way, yes.

        2. But was it something you cared about? Must have been more than 180,000 deaths. Just trying to gauge how many deaths are enough for you to start caring.

          1. Tony, you don’t give a fuck about anyone other than yourself. This is just a way for you to attack Trump. Everyone here knows that if Obama were president that ten million people could have died from his total incompetence and you would brush it off.

            So really, don’t even start with your bullshit.

            1. He dealt with at least two major outbreaks including Ebola without serious consequences for Americans. Trump threw all his pandemic response guidelines in the trash.

              1. He didn’t do shit about Ebola, that was Russia and the EU… or SARS, that was China, Singapore, Korea and Japan.
                You just constantly make stuff up.

              2. Eola was never a major threat, stated by the cdc.

                Swine flu Obama waited almost 6 months after WHO declared it a pandemic leading to higher US infection rates than Covid.

                Want to try again?

          2. Lol. Cite me sweetie. Benghazi was a complete failure of an actual government action. It was not a natural evolution of a virus that occurs yearly in nature.

      2. “Benghazi

        “Oh no, math! Quick everyone, look over there!” – t. Tony

      3. I love that whataboutism is okay when you do it Tony.

        1. No but look I’m seriously almost convinced that it literally doesn’t matter how many people die because of Trump’s incompetence because, hey, everyone dies eventually… The one last hurdle I have is I need to make sure nobody making the case spent months and years screeching hysterically about one minor foreign terrorist attack.

          1. So was Trump supposed to do? Usurp the governors powers and force them to shut down and then send the federal police to make sure everyone wore a mask? Seriously, what the fuck did you want him to do?

            1. Nope, all Trump had to do was stand in front of the American people and say “The experts tell me that the best we can do right now is to socially distance and wear a mask in public. So I’m asking my fellow Americans to wear a mask, socially/physically distance, wash their hands and follow CDC recommendations”
              Its called leadership.
              Instead we half shutdown and have cult of people that don’t believe masks help… just enough to keep the death rate up.
              We basically dragged this thing out through the summer.
              If we really did a hard lock down, the disease would be dead in 3 weeks!

              1. “…… the disease would be dead in 3 weeks!”

                Oh, come on. You can’t be this stupid.

                1. They all are.

                2. Yes. Yes he is. They all are.

              2. You’re really trying to give shriek a run for his money as the stupidest motherfucker here.

                You know people remember that the whole point of the lockdowns was to flatten the curve, which inherently drags out a pandemic, right?

                Never mind that a hard lockdown is completely out of his authority you fucking fascist piece of shit.

              3. slight problem… until April of this year masks had no effect on a Virus per the CDC. Even now the science doesn’t actually show masks do shit. See Sweden or Danish studies.

                You’re virtue signaling based off of nothing scientific.

                Washing hands and social distancing do have some effect. That has been in the literature for decades. The masks are for show.

          2. Haha. Yeah, I remember that! It was all caused by some racist anti Muslim video made by terrible white people, right?

            Yeah. They had it comin’.

            1. I feel that you are struggling with the points being made on this thread.

              1. No we can all grasp that you’re trolling

  9. Welcome to Moscow mfers.

  10. That 90% of deaths occured in nursing homes is significant and not mentioned. Do some real journalism and verify this number. This is disgusting journalism. Why do you want covid to be a boogeyman? It’s revealing this is your take.

    1. NJ NY CT MI and CA won’t reveal how many nursing home residents died within a few days of transfer to hospitals. They’re counted as hospital deaths along with all the rest. If they were counted instead as nursing home deaths, then you’d have maybe 75%.

      That still leaves 25% being hospital and private home deaths.

  11. Idk about y’all, but I’m running with the 9k number – although even that seems a bit high.

  12. People shot in the head, falling off motorcycles, or overdosing on fentanyl have been counted as COVID deaths. It goes without saying, any flu death will be called a COVID death. The numerator is totally unknown. What is known is that a COVID death gets $13,000 from the federal government. How can any distressed hospital not just add the diagnosis to all death certificates?

    The excess death rate in 2020 is 54/100,000. That makes COVID less deadly than the flu. This is a huge scam. Most lawyers are Democrats, obviously, and have no credibility on COVID.

    1. Yeah, but Sullum wants a job with the WaPo, and orangemanbad, so don’t expect him to be honest about it.

      1. Trump could preside over hundreds of thousands of deaths by disease and the worst economy in a hundred years and your main response would be “orange man bad derp derp stupid libtard.” I know, you think I’m exaggerating and you’d never take your Trump cock gobbling that far. But just wait oh that’s what you’re already doing.

        1. You’re a liar, idiotic, and no one here cares about your erotic fantasies, shitstain.

        2. Trump could preside over hundreds of thousands of deaths by disease and the worst economy in a hundred years and your main response would be “orange man bad derp derp stupid libtard.”

          Democrats at the state level are primarily responsible for the economic disaster.

          As for the disease, number of lives lost isn’t even the right metric; the right metric is $/QALY, and if there is one thing that’s crystal clear about COVID is that we are spending way, way too much to fight it.

        3. How are the deaths his fault and not the governor’s, Tony.

          You still keep making that horseshit accusation, but refuse to justify it.

          1. Just shut the fuck up. Trump is responsible not only for thousands of covid deaths but the state of the economy as well. I am personally livid that my job may be on the chopping block because of him and his cosmic idiocy. You aren’t the only stupid assholes who get to be mad. And if you’re arguing that dead old people are the price we pay for Trump’s poll numbers, then you don’t actually care about anything at all, and you can, please, shut the fuck up.

            What, are you surprised that a reality tv host is a bad president?

            1. “Just shut the fuck up.”

              Tony loses.

            2. Tony just begs and begs to become a fascist state.

            3. Yes, he is bad, but still better than the four before him.

    2. The excess death rate is a misleading number. Because people are doing less (driving less) the death rate from other causes has gone down.
      You cannot hang your hat on just one metric

      1. You sadly are dumb enough to believe this. Hint… of you’re under 60 the death risk from covid is the same as driving 5 miles.

      2. How old is this one?

        My God the stupidity.

        They all follow each other’s talking points. It’s creepy.

  13. Considering that minuscule means “extremely small” or “tiny,” it’s hard to argue that he’s wrong, especially since the virus has killed less than one half of one percent of the population.

    1. If only we could convince 51% of voters of the logic!

      Oh well there’s always just throwing their votes in the trash. Easier than competence if you weren’t born with it.

      1. I don’t know why you’re so upset Tony, old people (the prevailing demographic of recorded deaths) are usually the most racist, Republican voting demographic.

        Besides, it’s not like you wouldn’t have lined them up against the wall for their Climate Change denialism.

        1. Thanks for admitting you’re in favor of killing all the old people so Trump might get a 2 point boost in his poll numbers. (Assuming nobody’s mad a out the dead old people, of course.)

          Most genociders at least have something they claim to be substantial to hang their mass murder on. But Trump’s hypothetical poll numbers?

          I mean I’m sorry he’s made a terrible president, but I could have told you that a long time ago.

          1. I. DON’T. LIKE. TRUMP.

            Get this through your fucking head you idiotic motherfucker: It is possible to think you are your ilk are full of shit and not be a Trump supporter.

            Old people die, it’s fucking nature and one day you and I will die of something, hopefully in our old age. But go on denying math and science. Just don’t pretend you’ve got the moral high ground when you’ve said on these very pages that you would line up your political opponents against the wall.

            (Oh, and just because you’re my favorite person to argue with on here doesn’t mean I would wish death on you.)

            1. I dont wish death on him, I just know nobody will be negatively affected by his death.

            2. Oh, so a policy of letting old people die so Trump can get a hypothetical two point boost in poll numbers is the math and science approach.

              1. The only people that instituted a policy of letting old people die were your fellow Democrats who shoved Covid positive patients into nursing homes.

                And yes, Old people dying is a fucking scientific fact.

              2. Oh, and I’m gonna book mark this thread when Trump gets re-elected by these same old fucks and you’re calling for their liquidation.

    2. More like one half of one tenth of one percent of the population.

      183,000 / 328,200,000 = 0.00056 (or 0.056% percent)

  14. Forcing people to wear masks: that’s violence.

    1. People like Tony will be shocked when enforcement of a national face mask mandate will disproportionately affect minorities.

      1. Well, if they’re not capable of getting ID’s…..

    2. And the use of coercion to enforce it.

      Australia is committing human rights violations for…MASKS.

      Pseudo-science bull shit.

      Reason should be focused on that angle.

      1. Fine, show me the study that suggest that mask usage does not affect the death rate.

        1. Study? Try STUDIES going back to the 1920s.

          Are people this fricken clueless? Up until now that was the prevailing view. Masks are ineffective.

          A few hastily patch work studies come out in 2020 and it somehow over rides all past studies?

          Go look them up yourself. I spend a lot of time on this. You can get off your ass and do it. There are over 35 studies and I can’t possibly link them all.

          Man you guys are gullible.

          1. Oh. I’ve read over 45 of them now.

            And the body of evidence sides with ‘Nay’.

            Even the studies that push for it aren’t conclusive. And the ones that are, have questionable methodology.

            I’ll stick with you wanna wear it? Go for it. On a voluntary basis, it can’t hurt and make people feel safe. The data does NOT back mandates which are more pernicious.

            1. the only studies that offer any benefit from masks are based on simulations, non validated simulations. No actual study shows masks as effective against viruses. CDC did not promote masks with viruses until April of this year, and it was based off of 3 laughable studies that would get a college freshman biologist a D grade.

        2. “show me the study that suggest that mask usage does not affect the death rate.”

          That is not how it works. You are the one who needs to show that masks not only work, but work so damn well that it justifies imposing force upon the entire populace.

        3. compare all the state death rates and mask mandates. there’s no correlation.

  15. Its been darn near impossible to get straight facts from anyone in govt or the media or the political class (let alone the healthcare industry) as each group will view the virus through it’s own lens. False positives? I keep waiting for someone to tell me the % of false positives or negatives for the antigen or antibody tests. What about testing positive to the antigen but in such low amounts you are not contagious? People getting picked off because covid-19 is the last straw for someone with multiple issues like obesity, old age and so on. What is the % of people to die from only covid is very important because if you have NO conditions and the % is very very low..it impacts on getting back to normal. Sounds to me like common sense (wear masks at work or inside public places) if you are healthy and if you’re not, stay home and be careful. We treated everyone like they were in the high risk class. Typical social science approach.

  16. Wouldn’t it be nice if lying was a crime

    1. Even better if lying caused severe respiratory disease, and cumulative lying is fatal.

      1. Wearing a bacteria ridden mask over your face all day has that covered.

    2. “Wouldn’t it be nice if lying was a crime.”

      Nazi scum would never see the ‘outside’.

      1. No more false narratives for you.

    3. We could write a folk song – “Where have all the commenters gone?”

      1. When someone lies, what could they possibly have to say that anyone needs to hear?

  17. If only there were some sort of group of people who could gather the relevant data and determine a baseline number of “Died with covid” deaths by taking the % of positive tests and applying that to the number of dead in the population.

    If you have a 5% positive rate and 1,000 deaths a week, you’d expect 50 people to die WITH covid every week.

    If only there were some sort of group of people who could actually do the legwork and come up with a realistic “Died with covid” number so we could compare that to do what we actually have.

    Oh well.

    1. Here is the funny thing… new York times just had a story where the test agencies are increasing PCR for positive teats by way too much, basically finding covid infections at levels that would not normally be considered infections.

      https://t.co/rR4aBDK4Xl?amp=1

      But here tony is still denying science.

      1. You’re right except it’s not funny at all, it’s treasonous.

  18. Ugh…it is always the retweets that get him = POTUS Trump retweet.

    I think POTUS Trump is also on record as saying: One is too many (referring to deaths from Covid-19).

    1. The people here love Trump more than Trump loves Trump, and that’s just disgusting.

      1. Nonsense tony. Folks here dont love trump, but they really fucking hate being gaslit by marxist fu&$wads like you and jacob.
        And this asinine tendency to, again, gaslight every pushback against the mindless tds as some sort of trump worship is just patheic.

        1. This.

          Funny to see neutral chipper join tony in the accusations though.

        2. Sorry, I can’t make out your words, could you stop sucking Trump’s cock for a moment?

  19. “Trump Promotes the Outlandish Claim That COVID-19 Has Killed a ‘Minuscule’ Number of Americans”

    Number of deaths attributed to Covid 19 by the CDC: 185,870
    US population: ~>331,000,000
    Death toll =~1/2 of 1%
    If 1/200th of a thing isn’t “miniscule”, it’ll serve until something better comes along.

    Further, it seems that number needs to be clarified by the CDC:
    “Colorado now breaking down deaths due to COVID-19 versus people who died with COVID-19”
    […]
    “According to Friday’s data, 878 people died in Colorado due to COVID-19, while a total of 1,150 people – including the 878 – have died and had COVID-19….”
    https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/coronavirus/colorado-now-breaking-down-deaths-due-to-covid-19-versus-people-who-died-with-covid-19
    Looks like very close to a 100% overcount there. I could die ‘with’ a cold being run over by a truck.

    1. If 1/200th of a thing isn’t “miniscule”, it’ll serve until something better comes along.

      Today I learned that the genetic difference between Sevo and a chimpanzee is miniscule.

      1. “Today I learned that the genetic difference between Sevo and a chimpanzee is miniscule.”

        As shown by your response, you’ve shown for a LONG time that there is zero difference between CMW and a fucking brain-dead lefty.

      2. I mean, scientifically and mathematically? Yeah, there’s a minuscule difference between humans and chimpanzees.

        Were you trying to make a joke or sick burn or something?

        1. He is proving he has no team as he calls everyone a cultist like a good lil leftie

        2. “Yeah, there’s a minuscule difference between humans and chimpanzees.”

          “The difference between us and chimps is, we can do experiments on them and mostly not the other way around.” I forget which biologist came up with that one.

    2. My mistake: a 50% overcount.

    3. First that was a May15th article. Hardly affecting today.

      The officials pointed to the latest guidance from the CDC, which says: “When COVID-19 is reported as a cause of death on the death certificate, it is code and counted as a death due to COVID-19. COVID-19 should not be reported on the death certificate if it did not cause or contribute to the death.”

      So the CDC has always been counting deaths due to COVID vs. deaths with COVID.

      And from the same article:
      “According to Friday’s data, 878 people died in Colorado due to COVID-19, while a total of 1,150 people – including the 878 – have died and had COVID-19.”
      That’s not a 100% overcount. More like 30%
      And today’s numbers, 1944 vs 1843 or 5%

      But hey, keep cherry picking the data. That’s one way to solve this.

      1. August.30.2020 at 11:03 pm
        “First that was a May15th article. Hardly affecting today.”

        First, your bullshit claim is lacking evidence, as is common for lefty fucking ignoramuses.
        —————————————————
        The officials pointed to the latest guidance from the CDC, which says: “When COVID-19 is reported as a cause of death on the death certificate, it is code and counted as a death due to COVID-19. COVID-19 should not be reported on the death certificate if it did not cause or contribute to the death.”

        So the CDC has always been counting deaths due to COVID vs. deaths with COVID.
        —————————————————
        “or contribute to the death.”
        Yep lefty shit will take a death caused by an accident as caused by a cold if they had a cold. Are you trying to prove how stupid lefty shits can be?
        ————————————————–
        And from the same article:
        “According to Friday’s data, 878 people died in Colorado due to COVID-19, while a total of 1,150 people – including the 878 – have died and had COVID-19.”
        That’s not a 100% overcount. More like 30%
        And today’s numbers, 1944 vs 1843 or 5%
        But hey, keep cherry picking the data. That’s one way to solve this.”

        I corrected my claim; you choose to cherry pick yours? How………..
        pathetic, you slimy piece of lefty shit.

  20. The percentage of the population that has died of Covid (presumably those involved in Covid motorcycle accidents) represents roughly 0.05%. Minuscule, tiny, rounding error… I’m not sure these are incorrect adjectives based on the numbers.

    1. (Sorry – I meant INCLUDING those involved in motorcycle accidents)

      1. I’m filled with grammatical errors in my rants.

  21. The raw data does suggest it’s miniscule. Note, saying that doesn’t mean loss of life is demeaned. Only a buffoon – say like Tony – will conflate this.

    In Canada, deaths represent .025%. If that’s minuscule, I don’t know what is. Now, that shoots up to 7.5% when cases are considered. We have a higher IFR than the USA. BUT, 80% of those deaths are over 65. My cousin is part of the respiratory team in ICU at a Montreal hospital. She said not a single person came through ICU who was under 65 and 95% of deaths were with co-mobordities.

    Keep it simple. Covid-19 is NOT A LETHAL VIRUS. We psychologically traumatized North America with the lockdowns which were NEVER based in any kind of science. And now we continue to make sure people remain in fear with those stupid mouth diapers.

    “It was based on what now seems to be an overestimate of the COVID-19 infection fatality”

    Yes. The famous ‘Professor Lockdown’ and his faulty models. And people still promise more deaths. It was a PANIC move. Has Reason bothered to look at the failure of the lockdowns and it’s ‘unseen’ destruction?

    “But judging from excess mortality calculations, particularly for people with pneumonia or flu-like symptoms, most of these patients would still be alive but for the virus.”

    Look. It’s time to live our lives. Six months have been stolen. We’ve turned schools into cinder block cages. We zap everyone for a damn fever. It’s a fog of fear that needs relenting.

    As for Europe and the spikes. No shit. You were in LOCKDOWN. But even there, look at the deaths. You’re seeing France with 6000 cases and five deaths. Hello. Italy 1200 cases. Four deaths.

    Meanwhile -MEANWHILE – Sweden hasn’t had any cases in the past week and announced they’re going back to normalcy by October. We’re still dicking around with masks.

    We’re in irrational panic mode and these draconian measures are a joke.

    There. I said it.

    1. “overcounting of COVID-19 deaths is probably a less significant problem than undercounting,”

      See? I don’t care for that. I think it DOES pose a problem because it makes people scared. It’s distorting reality. I think the worst has past us as the nursing home event was an anomaly. It distorts things to the point we’re engaging in dubious non-pharma measures.

      I do think we’ve over counting. Wouldn’t surprise me one iota if deaths uniquely attributed to Covid cut the number in half. Don’t forget to focus on excess mortality.

      The other day my mother made us food so I went to pick it up with my 15 year-old. The women in my family are very affectionate and when they saw each other they wanted to hug but my mother pulled back. She’s scared. ‘They tell us not too!’ I told her to stop but there’s no point.

      The hit job has been done. Good luck getting that fixed.

      Every single one of us should be INFURIATED because I’m of the belief public officials are so incompetent they misleading the public.

      My trust in public health officials has dropped dramatically. How can I take a clown like Dr. Tam here seriously when she says stupid idiotic things like ‘we may have to wear masks even if there’s a vaccine’.

      The utter lack of wisdom is frightening.

      We should absolutely reject all this and punch anyone who says, ‘new normal’.

  22. https://www.virology.ws/2020/08/13/the-future-trajectory-of-sars-cov-2/

    “…To put this another way, here we have a pandemic virus whose emergence could have been stopped had we invested a few billion dollars in development of pan-CoV antiviral drugs. Instead, many companies and governments are spending billions of dollars to develop vaccines that will one day be obsolete. This lack of vision should infuriate every human on Earth.

    Pandemic viruses will continue to emerge from animal reservoirs in the coming years. Will we be ready for them? I doubt it.”

    In the article he thinks this will be a 5th strain of the common cold at some point.

    Everyone needs to CHILL.

  23. Last, I don’t even think Covid-19 makes the top 10 list of deaths in North America/world.

    By pandemic standards, this one is a pussy cat.

    So how about this?

    All you fucken teachers shut up – I read a nauseating article by some guy in Newsweek babble about how the ‘science’ questions reopening schools – and go teach the kids WITHOUT scaring the crap out of them, m’kay? Same with Colleges. Get cases? Too bad. Fuck you. Keep it going. Life won’t end.

    Journalists pumping up people with fear pretending to ‘follow science’? How’s about you do some work and actually be honest for once in your miserable lives and help to contextualize this virus for people instead of riling them up? Oh and you can go ahead and stop calling people who challenge the authorities as ‘conspiracy theorists’ and ‘extremists.’ In London, world class doctors spoke at the protest and the cocksuckers in the media did that.

    Public health officials. You’re totes free to knock it off with the misapplication of the precautionary principle. Itsokay. You had your free ride with the Cadillac. You can stop with the projections because you’ve been wrong every step of the way and helped government to bet on the wrong horse for too long. No, I will NOT wear a mask.

    Politicians. Grow a fucken pair and lead. Australia: Kiss my ass you psychopaths.

    People who follow the arrows and wear masks. WAKE UP. You’re embarrassing the sheep.

    Out.

    1. Last, I don’t even think Covid-19 makes the top 10 list of deaths in North America/world.

      And by the standard that actually matters, namely quality adjusted years of life lost, COVID is a rounding error.

    2. Thanks for telling us why we shouldn’t care about a quarter million American deaths.

      Now tell me why I need to give a microscopic shit about your tax rates. Or your freedom at all.

      1. That’s a great Non-Sequitur there Tony.

        Keep trying little buddy, you’ll get it eventually.

      2. 180 becomes 250

      3. How did 180 become 250k?

        And it’s called contextualizing. You should try it sometime.

        If you don’t, then you have to pant shit about far worse threats to humans like HEART DISEASE.

        God dammit Tony.

        1. We don’t ignore heart disease.

          1. My point is we don’t stop life for it.

            Nor do we do for the flu which is pretty deadly. It’s just that we got so used to living with it and this is what we have to do with the Wuhan. Time to face this reality.

            It’s worth noting flu vaccines are more like shots than anything. We’ve been at it for decades and it’s so-so the effectiveness depending on the strain and if we get lucky any given year.

            The odds of the corona vaccines performing better is long to me.

            I could be wrong.

            1. are long

            2. You could be right, but this is the first time anyone has ever proposed just letting everyone get infected and counting the dead for an outbreak. Sweden is not a success story. Other countries that tried it backed off because of all the death. We need the easily influenced who may be listening that proposing no-vaccine “herd immunity” is not some kind of obvious or default choice. It is giving up.

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  25. The scamdemic was overblown and used to manipulate the populace It’s accurate to say only 6% of deaths can be attributed to COVID alone; if someone dies of heart failure and is obese, what is the cause? COVID was a contributor but not cause of death

    If someone is walking across the street slowly and doesn’t clear the intersection due to obesity and gets struck by a car, what is the cause of death?

    1. Red light timers?

      Fucking urban planners.

    2. In Italy, there’s a belief the death count is over-stated.

      I think this is the case across the board.

      Whereas the number of those infected is actually higher. If the CDC claims 50 million Americans have been infected (roughly 10x the official cases), then it’s reasonable to multiply the 20 million cases in the world by the same figure of 10.

      Let’s assume and entertain there are 200 million infected and the death count is over stated.

      That changes the IFR quite a bit. That is, it lowers it.

    3. Communist Chinese Virus, of course. Who will throw away $13,000?

  26. These spam comments on making money from home are looking more interesting than most of the comments here defending Trump. Jesus Christ you people are pathetic.

    1. I think most people are just saying it’s not the President’s job to save us from diseases.

      1. It literally is. The organizations that exist to save us from disease are federal agencies. You wouldn’t want to do without them.

        But no matter. You will, with 100% certainly, go back to believing the president is 100% responsible the microsecond after Biden becomes president. Go ahead, deny it. I’ll keep it in my records so we can avoid any confusion later.

        1. Holy … To any kids out there reading this, let Tony be a lesson to you; never go full retard, aka Tony-tarded.

        2. It literally isn’t. He’s not your dad, or maybe he is.

        3. Those organizations aren’t authorized by the Constitution either.

        4. “it literally is?” I didn’t think is possible, but yeah, Tony is a parody account. And to think I used to argue with “him.”

      2. The only non-coercive thing government can do is get out of the way and let people take the medications that they and their physicians think may help them.

  27. I actuality those 6% could have had an underlying condition it just wasn’t listed or known.

  28. If Reason employees actually were responsible journalists, they might have looked at the actually relevant number: years of life lost due to COVID-19. Harvard Researchers found that that number was around 138000 in June. That seems like a lot until you divide it by the number of people whose deaths are actually attributed to COVID.

    Trump is right: the number of people who died just from COVID is probably very small. And the impact of COVID on health or life expectancy is negligible compared to other causes.

    1. If Reason employees actually were responsible employees, they might have looked at the fact that Trump didn’t say anything, he merely re-tweeted a fucking Gateway Pundit story. Aside from the fact that Twitter is garbage and the Gateway Pundit is even worse garbage, it’s another example of how, if you’ve spent 5 minutes thinking about this, you’ve spent about 60 times the amount of time thinking about it as Trump spent thinking about it.

      Trump’s a troll; Stop Feeding The Trolls.

      And at this point, I have to conclude that Reason is a troll, too, and they’re writing this click-bait shit just to watch you fucking retards start jumping against the glass. This whole goddamn thing is a nothing-burger of a story – Trump says some stupid shit, film at 11.

      1. Trump is a troll. That’s how he manages to be heard at all. Without his trolling on social media, all you’d ever hear about is the kind of b.s. and lies you read in anything from the NYT to Reason.

        His point is basically correct. And you heard about it only because he was trolling and exaggerating.

    2. This. A thousand times THIS.

    3. That number is around 200,000 officially and that is probably an undercount.

      You don’t get to make up new rules about how death works because you think it might help Trump’s poll numbers. Having other conditions doesn’t mean they didn’t die of covid. You are being incredibly stupid.

      1. For public health, #deaths is irrelevant, what matters is QALY. COVID is a rounding error by standard health metrics.

        People like you are making up new rules. You ignore science and math.

        And you apparently don’t give a f$ck how many people you murder in the process, because let’s be clear: the effect of the lockdowns will be hundreds of thousands if not millions of excess deaths in the US alone.

      2. Having other conditions doesn’t mean they didn’t die of covid

        BINGO
        You are almost there. Dying of covid (cause of death) or dying with covid. (co-mordidity)
        How to save lives(btw, all the protocols were designed to “flatten the curve” to prevent overwhelming health care infrastructure it was never to save lives. ) is the question. Wearing a mask is not how to affect that number. Identifying and protecting those at risk. Those with co morbidities
        by protecting the vulnerable.

  29. Aristotle wouldn’t wipe his ass with this publication….

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  31. Jacob Sullum – Little Trump derangement syndrome going on there maskhole..
    Covid-19 is a F’ing Unicorn. The tests for Covid-19 have been proven to be the biggest farce on the face of the earth.
    I live in the most densely populated state in the nation and I still don’t even know anyone that has been sick, much less died of the killer plague.
    If Reason had any sense at all, you’d be unemployed.

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  33. Dear Mr. Sullum,

    You just lost a reader, subscriber and donor.

    I’ve been disappointed for a long time but kept coming back, mostly for the comments. But not even witty commentary can save a piece so slanted and clearly agenda-driven. There’s no objective thinking here at all; it’s just a hit piece. Not wanting to read garbage like this is why I came to Reason in the first place.

    I’m done. Bye folks.

    1. Send that to KMW’s boss.

  34. 94% of the people who have died with covid-19 have an average of around 2 other compromising factors.

    Only 6% of those who have died from covid-19 had no other medical issue.

    This is extremely good news.

    So why is it being treated as awful by the media and the left?

    1. Why ask why?

      It is who they are and it is what they do.

      What has changed is they no longer control the flow of actual information.

      Is there any doubt how the shootings in Kenosha would have been portrayed absent all that uncontrollable footage from cell phones?

      The left and their media allies wanted sympathetic victims and Kent State type imagery. Instead they got entirely unsympathetic low-life dirtbag belligerent felons saying “shoot me nigger” and attacking a teenager.

      1. Or consider how they address situations when Rand Paul does something not in alignment with Trump vs. Rand getting attacked in the street and then calling for an investigation of who is funding the attackers.

    2. Express that narcissism to your parents and they’ll kick you out of their basement and write you out of their will.

      What, you think you deserve better? Haha.

    3. Six hundred thousand people die of cancer each year, and 95% of them have comorbidities. That doesn’t mean they didn’t die of cancer.

      You are literally spreading a QAnon conspiracy interpretation of the facts. That the president embraces it is not good news.

      1. Cite for that cancer stat please.

        Doubt it because cancer strikes all people of all ages of all races.

      2. Six hundred thousand people die of cancer each year, and [many] of them have comorbidities. That doesn’t mean they didn’t die of cancer.

        Correct. But it does mean that we don’t spend money trying to cure or prevent the cancer if the comorbidities would have killed them within a year anyway.

        That is, if you have significant comorbidities (or are simply very old), most medical systems and most doctors will tell you that they are not going to treat your cancer.

        We also don’t lock down the entire nation every year because there are six hundred thousand people whose lives might be shortened by a few months if they catch some virus.

        Yet, all that rational, progressive, science-based public health goes out the window when progressives want to grab power by any means necessary, and they don’t give a f*ck who they bankrupt or how many people they kill in the process.

        1. Not taking measures to stop the spread of a highly contagious and deadly disease is the radical move. It may be the first time in the history of modern medicine that people have even proposed it. Your policy is calling for the deaths of millions of people so that Trump might get a boost in poll numbers by Election Day. It’s a dumb plan, even if it weren’t evil.

          1. Not taking measures to stop the spread of a highly contagious and deadly disease is the radical move

            slow the spread. No epidemiologist claimed it was possible to stop the spread of a highly contagious and deadly disease by shutting down the economy of a Nation. The only fix for a virus is to let it burn out on its own, or create a vaccine. (in the short term, medication that addresses the symptoms might help, like hydroxychloroquine. )

          2. Not taking measures to stop the spread of a highly contagious and deadly disease is the radical move. It may be the first time in the history of modern medicine that people have even proposed it.

            We should spread the stop of a highly contagious disease we always have: by isolating those known to suffer from it. Confining healthy people to their homes is an absurdity.

            Your policy is calling for the deaths of millions of people

            I didn’t state any policy, I simply stated scientific facts.

            First, government lockdowns and mask mandates had virtually no effect on the death toll from COVID.

            Second, lockdowns will cause millions of excess deaths. That’s not a guess or a risk, that’s a certainty.

    4. Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer? The survival rate is a horrifying 99.8% for those without comorbidities. But Tony’s Gam Gam.

  35. Reading through the comments here, I notice several things:

    1. I feel like I’m in some cruel time warp where we just keep having the same argument over and over and over.

    2. On the whole, many people attribute powers to the executive branch that do not exist.

    3. We might be able to have a productive and reasonable discussion about these issues if “Tony” would go away (or if we all agreed to ignore him).

    1. If Trump invoked the Insurrection Act, he’d be called a dictator. If he doesn’t, he’s blamed for riots.

      Health is clearly the jurisdiction of the Governors. If Trump forced anything (and don’t see how he could), he’d be called a dictator. But governors mess up, and he’s responsible for 180k (250k in Tony’s mind) deaths.

      They’re petulant, incoherent, children.

      1. It’s so bizarre how a president who constantly boasts about how he can singlehandedly accomplish things gets blamed when it turns out that he can’t. I don’t know what could possibly explain the prevalence of these critiques. The critics must be petulant, incoherent children.

    2. Trump’s cock: tasty, or the tastiest. Serious debate guys!

      1. You’re the expert, so you tell us, Tony.

        1. No, Stormy Daniels and possibly untold numbers of underage girls would know, but yay we’re saving us some fetuses for Christ yeehaw!

    3. 1. I feel like I’m in some cruel time warp where we just keep having the same argument over and over and over.

      That happens when you argue with the Tony’s and Buttplug’s of the world. They will never change their minds, and can nearly always be relied upon to get it wrong. Their purpose, at least Tony’s, is to chum the threads with their spew, and thereby get high click counts. It works.

      As to confusing the powers of the Executive, I cut people a lot of slack on that, after watching the previous 19 years. Congress has really fallen down on their job.

      1. All you have to do is admit that 180,000 dead people is worthy of government attention, and that this government has failed to give it the appropriate type and amount.

        I am 100% certain this conversation would have entirely different parameters if the president had a (D) after his name.

        Truly, I just want to talk to some libertarians. Do you know where I can find some?

        1. I am 100% certain this conversation would have entirely different parameters if the president had a (D) after his name.

          We all know this, Tony.

          This would never have happened at all under President Hillary.

          Because it would just be rolled into some other illness. There would be no ‘covid-19’, just a particularly bad type of viral pneumonia.

          Or maybe not even that.

          We know.

        2. Tony. I have a simple question. Our government has been focused almost exclusively on this virus for months.

          There have been absurd stimuli, boosts, and measures passed.

          What more could Trump have done?
          Give me one example of a policy that could have had a meaningful effect that would have been considered wise at the time. On a virus that has breached every quarantine on this planet?

        3. I am 100% certain this conversation would have entirely different parameters if the president had a (D) after his name.

          You bet. A Democratic president would have imposed lockdowns on the entire nation, and we would have called him a fascist and murderer for that.

          Trump didn’t impose a lockdown on the nation and left things to the states. That makes people like Cuomo the fascists and the murderers.

      2. This is true. The delegate everything to the agencies so they can have show trials, like the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings.

  36. Your Daily Math:

    187,000 Americans have died either from, or with, coronavirus. 80% (150,000) of these people were over the age of 70, and had an average of 2.7 comorbidities.

    187,000 is approximately 0.05% of the U.S. population. 150,000 of these people would have died, on average, within 0 to 8 years due to another cause (likely one of the 2.7 comorbidities listed).

    The remaining 37,000 people who have died were below the age of 70, but 80% of these people had several comorbidities.

    Question:

    If I am 55 years old and am obese (and have several underlying health issues related to my obesity including hypertension), and I drop dead of a heart attack this year, what is my cause of death? Was it due to a heart attack? Or, was it due to obesity? Would I have had a heart attack this year if I were not obese? I likely would have not.

    This is the problem with how we are looking at coronavirus. We are still in a huge state of denial that we are experiencing an obesity epidemic, where 42% of adult Americans are obese, but still choose to discuss deaths by coronavirus as if they were akin to getting hit by a stray meteorite.

    If this country took our personal health seriously there would be no reason for lockdowns, no reason to starve our children of the social interaction afforded in their in-person school settings, and no reason for the economic devastation lockdowns have caused.

    I am 51, and a runner and mountain biker, and average 8-10 hours a week exercise. When people tell me “He he…I only run when I am chased!” I now respond with “Well, coronavirus is now in our lives, so consider yourself chased.”.

    I am sick and fucking tired paying for the gluttony and stupidity of those around me. If you are an adult, and have allowed yourself to become fat, sick, and almost dead, then it is on you should coronavirus take your life. It is up to you to make healthy choices, to exercise regularly, and eat a reasonable diet.

    I know, I know…not all obese people are so because they do not exercise. Sure they aren’t.

    1. So much all of this. It’s like people don’t get that “healthy at any weight” is just feel-good bullshit. The best way to beat corona is to have a system healthy enough to beat it. That means getting off the couch and going for a walk.

    2. Jim I feel you pain. It makes me mad to hang around people that are stupid, but think they have all the answers, and can tell from afar where other people are making wrong choices.

    3. I’ve tried. Leftists can’t do math.

  37. Well “minuscule” is the wrong word. If 3 million Americans die every year, and 150,000 more died this year due to COVID-19, that’s a 5 percent increase, which is tragic and significant.
    But 150,000 out of 300 million people is only 0.05%.
    And it’s open for debate if the 150,000 deaths are all unexpected, or if many of them would have died of other causes if COVID-19 hadn’t started.

    1. and some alarmists are pointing to “excess deaths” and saying it’s even higher than that, without separating out how many of those excess deaths are from people staying home in fear, not going to the doctor when they should (for other health issues), not getting the same amount of sunshine and human interaction that are important to health and longevity, or despair from the loss of jobs and businesses and income.

  38. The death count is significant – but not by a great deal in my opinion. The CDC updates their “excess deaths from all causes” chart every week. We’ve been trending down each week since April and are near the normal trend line. I realize that there is lag time in getting the chart updated, but the trend is clear. The vulnerable (elderly, immune system compromised, etc.) need to be protected. All the rest – especially the truly healthy people under age 60 – need to get back to work. Life is risky.

  39. Yet another example of reason’s agenda-driven “logic.” The mere fact of having COVID 19 doesn’t prove that it contributed to or facilitated death from other factors.

    1. Right? I almost laughed out loud when I read that headline just now. I decided to reenter the torture chamber that is this comment thread, thinking of making this same point, but you got there first.

      Nobody knows anything but everyone knows everything and all of it is true and all of it is false.

  40. “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”

    For certain values of “minuscule”, the statement is certainly true.

  41. “Trump implied today by retweeting a message claiming that the official COVID-19 death toll, currently about 187,000, is off by a factor of 20”

    Where is the tweet? If you’re going to write a story criticizing a tweet then re-print the tweet. Otherwise this is just a game of telephone “Reason said that Twitter said that Trump said that OAN said that….ad infinitum”

    Really poor journalism. If you’re going to criticize what a public figure said then make it clear exactly what you’re criticizing.

  42. From the CDC’s own web site:

    Comorbidities

    Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups. For data on comorbidities, Socrata icon Click here to download….

    See this with your own eyes at:

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR0fUcThh_Dn2PL3FqFmpNqJPUX1pFJKkaw5oNtwZsiOn-xr96v9gnxhmYE#Comorbidities

    6% of 153,504 is 9,120. In proportion to 330+ million, is this “minuscule” ?

    1. Literally the horseshit this article is refuting.

    2. Well, let’s not be too dismissive. Pneumonia is by far the highest, followed by “respiratory failure”. Pneumonia is often a consequence of respiratory diseases, and “respiratory failure” is a description of what happened. These should not really be considered as side-effects. Hypertension and obesity are excessively common and hardly fatal. I wouldn’t call them a meaningful co-morbidity either. Also, 23,000 of the deaths, a full 15%, had either Alzheimer’s or dementia. These aren’t deadly diseases. Debilitating, but not deadly.

      On the other hand, 32,000 died of cardiac arrest and heart failure, and 7,500 had “malignant cancer” as a cause. I question whether these are meaningfully attributed to COVID.

      Meaningful co-morbidities, such as Chronic Respiratory Disease, Ischemic heart disease, and Diabetes, are something to consider, but I wouldn’t say that they should be dismissed in either direction. You can live a long life with these, but they do amplify diseases.

      This does point that it predominantly pushes people at deaths door to a mildly earlier fate. I don’t think that we can give a viable statement about what’s meaningful or not, but the “6%” is going way too far. I don’t even know if the 40,000 who died from heart attack and cancer should all be excluded.

  43. I would add that anecdotal data suggests that a high percent of people who had WuFlu at the time of their death were on hospice care! Try to get that data is like pulling teeth. And if we should learn anything from this it is that information can be dangerously lost during aggregation. I don’t doubt the gross counts very much but the lack of detail makes the gross counts worthless for understanding the risk of WuFlu. What data the bureaucracy publishes is just as important as what data they never seem to get around to publishing.

  44. The CDC said they were off a little on their numbers, 94% off. So yes, you libtardians are wrong again and must own it. Oh and you’ll lose in 60 days, I’ll be back to rub your nose in that too.

  45. It’s over lemmings, the CDC admitted that 94% of all the deaths were NOT due to Covid but other issues including stupid Governors shipping sick patients to retirement homes. Yep, you get to own your Cuomo too.

  46. So their “worst case” is 240K dead? That’s about half the number that die each year of smoking-related causes! Nobody gives a shit about that, so why is this such a big fucking emergency?

    As for the cops quitting in droves; good riddance to bad rubbish.

    1. You should express that narcissism to your parents and they’ll kick you out of their basement and write you out of their will.

  47. 9,000 out of 330,000,000 is miniscule.

    That’s 9 cents out of a $3,300 paycheck.

    That’s the weight of a gallon of water compared to a truckload.

    That’s a flight of stairs to Mt Everest. From SEA LEVEL.

    That’s the first four steps of a 5-mile hike.

    Yep. Miniscule.

    1. This site is very kunty or you would have about 2000 up arrows from me for your post.

  48. How can I say this in terms that a liberal would understand? Trump was right, you were wrong, now you have to hork some dong.

    Let me know if any of the words were too hard for you.

  49. The fake pandemic is just that…another outlandish attempt to further the global warming agenda which is as fake as the pandemic. Of course, the idiot liberals and socialists will never care about the millions that have died this year from other causes not related to this silly Covid scare because they hate people dying when it doesn’t support their stupid agenda.

  50. Miniscule? No Donald, we weren’t talking about your brain.

    He is one dumb motherfucker.

  51. Reason Magazine is sort of weird. I mean I subscribed in the early 70’s. It has changed a lot. Reason Round table is not really worth listening to. Like listening to a bunch of geek adolescents.
    I listen to the Mises Institute, Ron Paul Liberty Report, and for fun The Dollar Vigilante. Vernon Coleman and Icke are interesting as well.

  52. Alright, how’s about a little math in public”?
    Take the alledged 180,000 deaths DUE TO the Chinavirus, divide by the 330 millioni or so current residents of the USA. My cheap ten key punchbox calculator returns a figure of .0005. That is fuve hundredths of one percent. That is, by any measure, a “miniscule” proportion.

    cOnsider, too that at the outset of this madness, that 200 plus millioin dead AMericans was commony bandied about by Foutchi and his cohorts, all trying to make us panic, lock down, hide in the closet…..

    When I first read the earliest reports about a “new” virus making serious inroads into the populatioin of Whuan CIty in CHina, back in early December, and how quickly it spread, and how many it was killing, I KNEW the political pooh bahs here in the US would make an YUUUUUGE deal of it, and wrangle all manner of control, mandates, shutdowns, etc. Long before the first case was found on our shores. I KNEW our lax rules of entry would be a wide open door to bring in contagious vectors, who would merrily and carelessly spread it about. I also knew da gummit would go crazy over it, using it as an excuse to exercise all manner of control not relly theirs to wield.

    AND I knew nowhere near the predicted The End Of The WOrld As We Know It scenario being predicted would be WAY out of line, probably by at least a factor of a hundred.

    HOW? I remember the lintan of “going to kil us all diseases that have blanketed the news feeds over the past two decades. AIDS< H1N1, Zika, Ebola, Bird flu,

    I recently saw from another source where someone had gone back over death records in some of the hardest hit states (like New York, whose idiot governor mandated that known infected people who were recoverinf from the China Flu be admitted into elder care facilities to mihgle with the general populationis in those institutions, where none had been sick with it yet. Thousands died as a result. I would not list those as "corona virus deaths" I'd list those as homicide by a sick governor.

    SO MANY CASES where people died WITH the virus (per testing after the death) obviosly died from other causes… like the guy showed up in hospital with a bulet hole in his head. Or the woman rushed to the ER with major heart attack Or the guy who was munged up in a nasty motorcycle crash that no one else could have survived/.

    Further the "intervention" ballyhooed about by Fautchi and Company is so near to useless and ineffective it likley only reduced the number of new cases by a small fractioni of one percent. Come ONNNN.. when the silly masks now near universally mandated ONLY filter out some four percent of viral particles, inbound or outbound, that is IF they are worn properly (which i estoimate under one percent are, and that is ONLY so if the user is changing them at prescribed intervals, which I seriosuly doubt exceeds one percent of wearers.
    "Social distancing" is another joke… someone talking in a loud voice will "spew" aerosolised particles easily to thirty feet in maybe five to seven seconds. So what good does six feet do besides make everyoine stare at the floor to see their feet are on the cartoons on the floor.

    The ONE THING I jhave NEVER SEEN any government agency promote, let alone DO anything about providing or even recommending, is a short and simple list of dietary supplements that WILL absolutely strengthen anyone's immune system, enaboing it to finctiin as God designed, and take out any dangerous viral particles or infections of any kind long before an y illness can result.

    Trying to eracidate the virus iteslf from our world is a fool's errand. It ain't a gonna happen. Trying to exterminate every viral particle is an impossible task. Even so is trying to prevents its spread in the marginally effective ways we are commanded to do.

    When the enemy is surroinging you, you COULD try to shoot every one of them before they can breach and occupy Never happen, more keep coming over the hill in an endless stream. Better to fortify the ramparts, arm and train the crack counter-incursion crew, so that when some DO breach the walls there will be a hundred of our good guys for every one of their bad guys. Will the castle get breached that way? Nope. The fortress is hardened and impenetrable to the enemy. One or two MIGHT gain entry, but the Castle Guard will "liquidate" them long before they can do any harm.
    LEARN how to harden your own body against the virus, and thorw away your useless mug nappie. It gets in the way when you breathe, anyway. And drives you crazy cause it is always in the way.

    1. You would call it minuscule and do nothing if North Korea lined up 180000 US citizens at a firing squad.

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