Free Speech

Writer-Activist Hit With Licensing Complaint for Calling Himself an Engineer

Licensing laws can be weaponized to chill speech.

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The head of an urban policy nonprofit has been hit with a complaint for describing himself as an engineer in materials written while his engineering license was expired. The case is the latest example of how licensing laws can be weaponized to chill speech.

The target of the complaint is Charles Marohn, the founder and CEO of the Minnesota-based organization Strong Towns. Before launching the group, which publishes research and commentary on housing and transportation policy, Marohn worked as a civil engineer, having first obtained a Minnesota engineering license back in 2000.

This week, Marohn received a letter from the Minnesota Board of Architecture, Engineering, Land Surveying, Landscape Architecture, Geoscience, and Interior Design (AELSLAGID) informing him of a complaint filed against him for allegedly misrepresenting his professional credentials.

That complaint, filed in February 2020 by South Dakota resident David Dixon, takes issue with a staff bio on the Strong Towns website that calls Marohn a professional engineer. Marohn's license, Dixon notes, expired in June 2018.

"Mr. Marohn talks about being a policy expert, the type that reads law and ordinance. It is not reasonable to assume that Mr. Marohn was not aware that use of the term Professional Engineer, PE, or other similar representation while not licensed is a violation of law," reads the complaint. "I urge the board to investigate as it sees fit, and to send a clear message that frauds of this sort are not tolerated."

Potential penalties for violating Minnesota's licensing regulations range from a formal reprimand to civil fines and even the suspension or revocation of one's engineering license.

"It's very obvious that the guy doesn't like what I'm writing and is using a technicality of licensing to try to discredit me," Marohn tells Reason. "If he really cared about the licensing and how I represented myself, it's not like I'm hard to get a hold of."

Minnesota licensing law forbids anyone from practicing engineering without a license. It also bars unlicensed individuals from calling themselves a professional engineer in advertisements, letterheads, signatures, or verbal claims.

Minnesota engineering licenses automatically expire on June 30 of even-numbered years, requiring licensees to proactively renew them. The board sends out notices to engineers' home addresses every two years reminding them they need to renew their licenses. Marohn says he moved without informing the board, and as a result, missed the renewal deadline. He says he renewed it in June of this year after realizing it had lapsed. The AELSLAGID website currently shows his license as expiring in June 2022.

But that renewal came too late to stave off Dixon's complaint.

After seeing these references to Marohn's professional credentials back in February, Dixon—according to the text of his complaint—searched for Marohn's licensing information on the AELSLAGID website, only to find that his license had expired in June 2018.

Dixon listed several other times Marohn was described as a professional engineer while his license had lapsed, including the "about the author" page of Marohn's book Strong Towns and materials for a 2019 conference where Marohn was the keynote speaker.

A complaint having been filed, AELSLAGID has to investigate. Marohn has been asked to give the board a list of professional positions he's held in Minnesota during the time his license had lapsed, a list of all engineering projects he worked on during that time, copies of engineering plans or drawings he'd signed off on, and corrective steps he'd taken to renew his license once learning it had expired.

"It's kind of silly," Marohn says. "I don't go out and practice as an engineer. I'm a writer. I do public speaking, and I do writing. I do advocacy work. I don't sign plans; I don't do construction drawings."

While states do have the authority to license professions, regulations on who can use a particular title raise free speech concerns, says Sam Gedge, an attorney with the Institute for Justice.

"Increasingly we see government regulators trying to police the dictionary, trying to tell people what words they can use to describe themselves. We see this with engineers, psychiatrists, etc.," says Gedge.

The government can prohibit commercial speech that is inherently misleading, Gedge says. But he doesn't think the contents of a book or a nonprofit's website would fit that definition.

The Institute for Justice has litigated similar cases before. In 2017, it sued Oregon's engineering board after it fined Beaverton man Mats Järlström for referring to himself as an engineer in letters to the board, despite not having a state engineering license.

While complaint systems are a common way for regulatory bodies to enforce rules, they can become problematic when the laws on the books try to regulate what people are allowed to say, says Gedge.

"When the laws being enforced regulate speech, there's a very real danger that the only people with an incentive to file these complaints don't like what you are saying," Gedge tells Reason.

Marohn was the subject of a licensing complaint once before. In 2015 a member of Move MN, a group that supports more transportation funding, accused him of misconduct after he criticized the group in an article titled "No New Roads." In that case, AELSLAGID determined that no violation occurred.

Marohn doesn't anticipate being sanctioned this time around either, but he worries about the chilling effect these kinds of complaints can have on working engineers who might agree with his criticisms of the civil engineering profession but still need their license to earn a living.

"There are a lot of engineers that feel stifled by the system," he tells Reason.

Strong Towns wants to cut federal and state spending on transportation and to devolve more authority over infrastructure down to local levels of government. He argues that this threatens the interests of the civil engineering profession, making his group a target.

Marohn isn't opposed to state licensure for engineers but he doesn't like the way the complaint system can be weaponized.

"I would like to think as a collection of professionals, we would be more interested in collegial respect amongst each other as opposed to abusing this system that's supposed to protect the public to carry out vendettas against each other," he says.

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77 responses to “Writer-Activist Hit With Licensing Complaint for Calling Himself an Engineer

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  2. Minnesota Board of Architecture, Engineering, Land Surveying, Landscape Architecture, Geoscience, and Interior Design (AELSLAGID)

    Worst acronym ever. You can’t even pronounce it. “AYE-els-lah-geed”? Is that Swedish for something?

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    2. “Worst acronym ever. You can’t even pronounce it.”

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    5. Is that Swedish for something?

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  3. Hmm, maybe we should embrace and expand the notion of licensing. How about requiring licenses for reporters and journalists? Protestors? Americans?

    1. Politicians. You need a license to require other people to have a license. Make them go through a 1000 hour class and pay out the ass for it. See if they’re still so trigger happy after that about forcing others to get a license.

      1. No, for politicians, they should require 8000 hours of training, and another 2000 hours of ethics classes.

        1. 7999 hours of the training are corporal punishment

      2. Politicians. You need a license to require other people to have a license.

        Sure, if you want to have a totalitarian state, make it utterly impossible for people outside the system to become politicians.

        See if they’re still so trigger happy after that about forcing others to get a license.

        Are you effing kidding? Politicians would love it. You really don’t understand how government works.

    2. Male and Female!

  4. Minnesota licensing law forbids anyone from practicing engineering solving problems without a license.

    Fixed.
    FFS.

    1. Minnesota licensing law forbids anyone from breathing without a license

  5. Minnesota is the new Florida based off of this year.

  6. “I don’t go out and practice as an engineer”

    Then don’t present yourself as one. You knew the law, you just didn’t care.

    Or you could have just kept up your license. They don’t really cost all that much and you did actually have one once. Why would you go through a process that requires not one but two 8 hours tests (and more for structural), a 4 year accredited engineering degree, and at least four years of professional design work plus references. And then let it lapse. Silly.

    1. Very good point. The validity of what the “engineer” writes is based solely upon whether or not he has permission from the government to call himself an engineer. Content shmontent.

    2. Ahhhh, most practicing engineers in the United States don’t have a license. A license doesn’t make you an engineer.

      1. It makes you a licensed professional engineer. And certain jobs in the engineering community are restricted to those who have been licensed.

      2. That’s true. But most practicing engineers don’t lie like this guy did and claim to be licensed by using abbreviations like “PE” specifically intended to represent licensed status.

        What he did is equivalent to putting MD after your name when you haven’t been to med school.

        1. Not quite. It’s equivalent to putting MD after your name with an expired medical license (which I would assume is also actionable).

          Some states allow the continued use of PE if you’re retired, but you have to have your status in state records reflect it.

        2. “What he did is equivalent to putting MD after your name when you haven’t been to med school.”

          Overstates it, IMO. It’s like calling yourself a Texas attorney, when you haven’t paid your Bar dues or kept up with your CLE. Yeah, s/he passed the Bar, got the law degree, probably practiced a bit, but s/he’s still not a Texas attorney unless the Texas State Bar Association says s/he is.

          He has the knowledge, can be hired as an engineer—probably has been working as an engineer all of this time—he just can’t call himself a PE, nor stamp plans as such.

    3. Legalities aside, what he did was extremely unprofessional.

    4. Has your jackass license expired?

      1. Think of the fines you could collect on expired jackass licenses!

    5. Then don’t present yourself as one. You knew the law, you just didn’t care.

      I’d say 99.9% of engineers in the world are not licensed by any Minnesota board.

      Or you could have just kept up your license. They don’t really cost all that much and you did actually have one once. Why would you go through a process that requires not one but two 8 hours tests (and more for structural), a 4 year accredited engineering degree, and at least four years of professional design work plus references. And then let it lapse. Silly.

      Stupidity or sarcasm? I can’t tell.

    6. Well, I went through all the rigamarole to get my PE. You’re right. I can’t fathom allowing it to lapse.

      However, I can also say that I almost never use my stamp. I only did the work in order to avoid this very issue, where I hold a degree in engineering, have a work title of engineer, but could be sanctioned for calling myself an engineer, even by accident. The majority of engineers are actually in this position, so many of those who don’t interact with the public don’t bother with the license.

    7. Exactly. He called himself a professional engineer, and that was the basis for the complaint. I’m an engineer, but not a Professional Engineer. Having come across many engineers who put PE on their business cards only to find out their registration has lapsed after asking for a reference, well I side with the state on this one.

  7. I thought the courts had already ruled on this issue? I could see maybe if he was claiming he was a licensed engineer for business purposes but just adding a few initial too his title? Didn’t Reason report on it? Yes they did:
    https://reason.com/2020/03/02/oregon-tried-to-silence-this-engineers-red-light-camera-research-now-experts-say-he-was-right-all-along/

    1. Different state, different court, even a (slightly) different law. While the Oregon decision is good precedent, it is not binding on Minnesota.

      1. I agree but you think they would have mentioned it in the article.

    2. Also, the prior case had him simply state “I am an engineer”, but he didn’t specifically call himself a licensed “PE”. It’s a subtle yet important point. You can be an engineer in casual conversation and not a PE. The majority of us are.

      However, using the title of “PE” is a clear falsehood. Just being careless or lazy and not renewing on the other hand, is less defensible because it’s explicit.

  8. Can we stop ex-office holders from using their title of office? Their “license” has also expired.

    1. That’s a good idea. At a minimum, political titles, if not eliminated once leaving office should immediately be changed to ex-TITLE.

      1. That is true, they should stop referring to Biden as VP Biden, Clinton as Secretary etc. Once they are out they no longer hold the title, it is even in the constitution:

        https://reason.com/2016/11/16/trump-is-not-my-president-and-clinton-is/

    2. yeah, why call some retired guy living on the public dole “Governor” or “Mr. Secretary” or “Coach”?

      1. I know retired military are officially in the retired reserve, but I will add them to the list. I didn’t use my rank off duty even in the Regular Army.

  9. I feel safer knowing that a SD resident is watching out for unlicensed engineers in MN.

  10. Good point. Sounds like a tattle-tale.

  11. Oregon did the same thing to an engineer with a license in another state who was critical of red-light cameras. He was vindicated by the courts for the same semantic bullshit. I believe Reason covered it.

  12. Shouldn’t he at least have to prove he knows how to run a train?

    1. Run a train on whom?

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  14. As a PE myself, this is obviously a little bit different than the guy in Oregon who simply said he was an “engineer.” This guy specifically claimed to be (and was, for all but administrative purposes) a Professional Engineer. The Oregon case was ridiculous and flies in the face of the norms of most of the profession and all industry regarding the use of the term. An “engineer” is anyone who fulfills an engineering role, regardless of formal qualification or licensure. A licensed engineer, professional engineer, or capital E “Engineer” referred to in some contractual or regulatory documents, requires a state license. So calling yourself that, when you aren’t one, pretty clearly violates some ethical and, depending upon the scenario, legal boundaries. And it doesn’t seem like this guy disagrees- he’s just like “yeah, you’re right, I missed keeping it up, I’ll take care of it.” Which, from my perspective, is good enough- he wasn’t actively providing services requiring he be a licensed engineer during this time, he simply used it as a qualification to give an idea of his background. Now if he was someone who never had (or was even qualified to have) a license and was specifically representing himself as a PE, then yeah, throw the book at him. But this scenario isn’t anything to make a big fuss over IMO, but that doesn’t stop the legalistic control freaks in the profession from trying.

    To complicate things further, since in the US licensing is on a state-by-state basis (with very little direct reciprocity), requirements are anything but uniform. And you can maintain a license in a state where you don’t live, even if it’s your sole license. You’re still a PE. So this guy lived and worked in Minnesota, and his Minnesota license expired, but if he had a current one from, say, Iowa- he would be fine referring to himself as a PE. Or even if he never had a Minnesota license but did have the Iowa one. Unless he was offering to perform work requiring a Minnesota-licensed engineer. It’s really a mess and hard to keep track of what you technically can and can’t do and say while maintaining strict compliance with the regulations.

    1. My grandfather had an engineer’s license. He only used it in the rail yard.

    2. I’d say it’s not like the Oregon case at all. The issue here isn’t the word “engineer”, it’s claiming to have a license when he doesn’t. That’s wrong even if the whole licensing regime is bullshit. It looks like it was negligence but it’s appropriate to take enough action to make him stop.

      To make an analogy: there’s no requirement to have a degree from Harvard, and I think Harvard degrees are overrated. But I would still fire an employee who falsely claimed to have a degree from Harvard, and if some used a fake degree to seal a business deal there should be some legal consequences.

      1. I mostly agree, and probably should have said “a lot bit different” than the Oregon case vs. “a little bit different.” That said, I see various degrees of running afoul of licensure. Again, someone who claims to be licensed but isn’t, and gets a job based on that? Especially someone who has NEVER been licensed, and would not meet the requirements? Absolutely, that is borderline criminal. Someone who was licensed but lets it lapse (for one renewal period or less- not like 30 years), who isn’t actively involved in engineering but presents it as a credential to give an idea of their background, where they are coming from? Certainly unethical if they are aware of what they are doing, careless to a degree that is unbecoming for an engineer if they are not, and in violation of the state’s statues in either case. But probably not worth of anything more than a “hey, dummy, get us our money and our paperwork, or stop calling yourself that” from the board. Which, in fairness, might be all that is happening here anyway.

      2. But I would still fire an employee who falsely claimed to have a degree from Harvard, and if some used a fake degree to seal a business deal there should be some legal consequences.

        Your analogy doesn’t work. The guy had been a professional engineer for years; it’s just that he failed to pay his renewal fee one year. This affects neither his qualifications nor his skills.

        The error here is with the licensing board: licenses should be perpetual, just like Harvard degrees.

        1. I see your point. But in most states, PE also certifies that you do annual continuing education (kind of a minor issue), and that you haven’t had any serious incidents of technical incompetence or unethical dealings with clients.

          It’s true this guy just hadn’t paid his annual fee. But a lapsed PE could also mean you’d had your license suspended, or elected to not renew because you were about to get tagged for incompetence.

          1. It’s true this guy just hadn’t paid his annual fee. But a lapsed PE could also mean

            But it didn’t mean that there.

            You accused this particular person of acting unethically. He didn’t. He simply forgot to pay a fee to a monopolistic, rent seeking agency.

    3. So calling yourself that, when you aren’t one, pretty clearly violates some ethical and, depending upon the scenario, legal boundaries.

      I don’t see how this violates any ethical standards. He wasn’t practicing engineering, and even if he was, his only failure was to pay the renewal fee, not anything affecting his actual skills.

      What violates ethical standards is the existence of the licensing board: a corrupt, monopolistic racket.

      1. agreed. The only purpose of putting the PE title in the book is to inform the reader of the knowledge base of the author. So long as that title hasn’t been revoked for proven ignorance or malpractice in the field, it’s expiration doesn’t change anything for the reader. The information in the book would have to go through further certification anyway for it to be used in a business capacity. It’s all pedantic nonsense.

      2. “What violates ethical standards is the existence of the licensing board: a corrupt, monopolistic racket.”

        Maybe so. But don’t you see a bit of contradiction between saying licensing is unethical and corrupt, while insisting on the benefits of claiming to be licensed?

        Not that the guy is doing that. But if you think the PE thing is corrupt monopoly, shouldn’t you be as much against the guys flaunting the title as the guys granting the title?

        1. Maybe so. But don’t you see a bit of contradiction between saying licensing is unethical and corrupt, while insisting on the benefits of claiming to be licensed?

          What benefits? The guy has a specific set of qualifications, and all he did was state those qualifications. He wasn’t even competing with other engineers for business.

          But if you think the PE thing is corrupt monopoly, shouldn’t you be as much against the guys flaunting the title as the guys granting the title?

          I have no problem with private certification agencies protecting the titles they give out under trademark laws.

          The problem is that this is a licensing agency; they rely on government-granted monopolies. Titles handed out by licensing organizations are nearly useless because licensing organizations have little incentive to engage in quality control. As far as I’m concerned, anything you can do to undermine the credibility or interests of licensing agencies is a good thing: the public should recognize how useless such organizations are.

          TLDR: certifications good, licensing bad.

  15. So the risk of some D-bag complaining to a board because you failed to renew your license is worse than having unqualified people doing engineering work

    there are porbelms with state licensing

    this is not one of them

    1. “So the risk of some D-bag complaining to a board because you failed to renew your license is worse than having unqualified people doing engineering work…”

      Is that a statement or sarc? Or stupidity?
      The complaint was an attempt to silence someone; it is questionable whether the license confers qualification.

  16. This is all so confusing. I was under the impression that words have no meaning in this day and age. Since Bill and Ted can say they’re “married,” and Bruce Jenner can insist he’s a “girl,” why can’t some guy claim to be an “engineer?”

    1. Because Engineers have to do actual math and the results matter. Whereas, in Gender Studies, it’s merely writing up opinions that are popular with the InGroup.

      1. My gender pronoun is “Professional Engineer”.

        1. I have an MS in Gender Engineering.

    2. Jenner claiming to be a woman is fine but she’s too old to be a girl.

      The gender thing is water under the bridge, but I haven’t surrendered yet on letting age and time be matters defined by personal identification.

  17. Did the guy claim to be a ‘licensed engineer’? Was he using it to get work or just saying ‘I know what I’m talking about’? All you need to be an engineer is a degree in engineering from an accredited college. If you get paid to do the work, you are a ‘professional’ by definition. Paying up the state a fee is just a ‘mother may I’ thing. Their is a difference between ‘professional’ and ‘licensed.’ For the record, Albert Einstein was not a licensed physicist but I think he knew what he was talking about.

    1. “…All you need to be an engineer is a degree in engineering from an accredited college…”

      Don’t even need that. If you make your living as an engineer, you are an engineer.
      The Krauts have this covered; there are ‘degreed’ engineers and those who ended up as engineers via apprenticeships.

  18. Charles should call himself a woman instead.

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  23. The article’s is misleading: He is in trouble for using the term Professional Engineer, a term that is defined by most state legislatures. Had he simply called himself an “engineer,” I doubt that there would be a problem.

    Reason’s editorial staff, and Britschgi in particular, seem to be arguing for a system like that in “Idiocracy,” where all of the lawyers, doctors, and dentists buy their credentials from Costco. I guess Britschgi believes that Costco will have an engineering program, too.

    1. You hit the nail on the head regarding Reason’s agenda here. This story is not about “licensing laws”, yet they’ve written as such to paint a broad brush against licensing of any kind. And to no surprise, the libertarians in the comments section miss the point of the case.

      Chuck is being targeted by an engineer who feels threatened by Chuck’s Strong Towns platform, which challenges civil engineering orthodoxy and the infrastructure cult that has placed impossible-to-pay-for liabilities on current and future generations.

      As Upton Sinclair said: “‘It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'”

      That applies to civil engineering, and it applies to the millions of dollars that fund libertarian outlets like Reason: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/12/09/charles-kochs-network-plans-take-aim-job-licensing-laws/77037506/

      Those that peruse this website should do themselves a favor and read Chuck’s defense in his own words: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/7/30/i-am-pushing-for-safe-streets

      I know Reason cares about how our infrastructure dollars are spent (as should everyone), but attacking professional licensure does not help.

      Civil Engineering licensure is not just for signing and sealing plans (so-called “practicing”, but you can practice in the field in so many other ways like… starting a nationwide movement to think differently about planning and infrastructure). It also grants the engineer due respect in a professional community, and in most (some?) States requires them to meet continuous education requirements for the sake of the profession but also for the health, safety, and welfare of the public. Attacks on licensure further galvanize the anti-expertise culture that is literally killing Americans during this pandemic, on top of all the other policy issues that are making our country fragile and un-resilient. For the sake of Civil Engineers, celebrate PE Day which is coincidentally this week: https://www.nspe.org/resources/professional-engineers-day#:~:text=NSPE%20is%20celebrating%20licensed%20professional,do%20each%20and%20every%20day.

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