Police

This Week in Policing Reform: Hawaii Lifts Police Secrecy, Civilian Oversight Boards Make Ballots in Miami and Philadelphia

And Sen. Tim Scott (R–S.C.) says policing reform in Congress might not be dead after all.

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It's been another busy week for policing reform around the country. While legislation remains moribund in Congress, local and state governments around the country have continued to press forward with bills and proposals addressing police use of excessive force, civilian oversight and transparency, body cameras, and police in schools.

Congress

  • Sen. Tim Scott (R–S.C.) told reporters on Wednesday that he is still talking with Democrats about a possible compromise to revive stalled police reform legislation in Congress. "Folks who are now calling me about the legislation from the other side suggest that perhaps it's not dead," Scott said. "We may have a Lazarus moment, we may not."
  • Scott, the only black GOP senator, talked more about his police reform bill and why ending qualified immunity is a non-starter for Republicans in an interview with Vox's Jane Coaston this week.
  • A coalition of Black Lives Matter groups released proposed legislation, titled the BREATHE Act. The proposals are more radical than any current police reform legislation in Congress by several orders of magnitude: The act would close all federal prisons and immigration detention centers, abolish Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the Drug Enforcement Administration, abolish mandatory minimums and life sentences, end civil asset forfeiture, decriminalize drugs, and retroactively expunge drug offenses. And that's just for starters. It has not been introduced in Congress, although Reps. Rashida Tlaib (D–Mich.) and Ayanna Pressley (D–Mass.) said they support it.

State Reform Packages

  • The Massachusetts Senate introduced a police reform package that would, among other things, create a statutory duty to intervene when other officers use excessive force. It would also ban chokeholds and forbid police from using no-knock warrants, firing tear gas or rubber bullets at crowds, or shoot at a moving vehicle unless the use of force can be justified by "prevention of imminent harm"
  • Hawaii's legislature passed a bill Monday that will make suspensions and firings of police officers public record. The names of suspended officers are currently confidential under a 25-year-old law. The bill would also allow the state's law enforcement standards board to revoke certifications.
  • The Pennsylvania legislature sent two bills to Gov. Tom Wolf's desk, where they're awaiting signature. One will create a statewide database of disciplinary actions and personnel records of police officers, and require departments to consult the database when considering potential hires. That database will not be public. The other bill will require implicit bias and de-escalation training for local police officers.

Use of Force

  • The Fort Lauderdale, Florida, police chief Rick Maglione is no longer the police chief six weeks after members of the department's SWAT team fired tear gas and rubber bullets at Black Lives Matter protesters. Maglione defended the use of force, which left one woman with a shattered eye socket, but dogged reporting from the Miami Herald showed there was little justification for the violence. The Herald also got body camera footage of cops laughing and bragging about shooting protesters with rubber bullets.
  • New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio is holding off on signing a package of police reform bills, including a chokehold ban, after a predictable tantrum from NYPD brass.
  • The St. Louis Board of Alderman unanimously passed a bill that will ban chokeholds, require de-escalation tactics, and ban no-knock warrants.
  • The Nashville Metro Council is considering several use-of-force reforms, including banning police from using tear gas.
  • Little Rock, Arkansas, officials backed away from a plan to have the state police investigate use-of-force incidents by city police.
  • The Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department announced changes to its use-of-force policies to limit neck restraints.
  • California Attorney General Xavier Becerra's office released its second report on use-of-force by the Sacramento Police Department, recommending that the department require de-escalation tactics, expand partnerships with mental health professionals, and reduce the use of K-9 units.
  • The Atlanta City Council approved legislation to amend the Atlanta Police Department's use-of-force policies, drawing from the "8 Can't Wait" platform for policing reform. The bill will ban chokeholds and shooting at moving vehicles; require de-escalation strategies and warnings before shooting; and create a statutory duty for police to intervene when they witness excessive force.
  • Last month the D.C. Council passed sweeping changes to the Metropolitan Police Department's use-of-force policies, but now they've apparently changed their minds and are going back to the drawing board.

Civilian Oversight

  • New York state Attorney General Leticia James released a preliminary report on the NYPD's violent response to recent protests, calling for "an entirely new accountability structure for NYPD." James proposes reducing the New York City mayor's power, creating a commission with power over the NYPD's budget and hiring, and strengthening the Civilian Complaint Review Board, which reviews misconduct allegations against NYPD officers but has no binding disciplinary authority.
  • Miami-Dade County commissioners voted to revive a civilian oversight board. Commissioners voted to do the same in 2018, but the mayor vetoed them. However, the proposal is also set to go on the ballot in Miami-Dade County as a charter amendment.
  • The San Diego City Council also unanimously voted, after years of pressure from activists, to put the question of a police oversight board on the November ballot. The San Diego Union-Tribune reports that the board "would be required to independently investigate all police-related deaths and officer-involved shootings. It could also choose to independently investigate other complaints made against officers."
  • Philadelphia voters will also choose this November whether to create a Citizens Police Oversight Commission.
  • Pasadena, California, is considering creating a civilian review board.
  • The city council of Madison, Wisconsin, voted to create a civilian review board and an independent auditor to oversee its police department. The council also blocked $50,000 in police funding for non-lethal weapons.
  • Houston's new police reform task force could overhaul the city's police oversight board.

Body Cameras

  • New Mexico will require that all state and local law enforcement officers wear body cameras.
  • Tacoma, Washington, will roll out police body cameras in early 2021.
  • Manchester, Connecticut, is considering a body camera program.

School Resource Officers

  • The Phoenix Union High School District will not renew its annual agreement with the city for school resource officers.
  • Columbus, Ohio, has disbanded its school resource officer program.
  • The Los Angeles Unified School District cut its budget for school police by $25 million—33 percent—leading the school police chief to resign.

NEXT: John Roberts Just Annoyed Everybody. Is He the New Anthony Kennedy?

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  1. Does this mean that protests sometimes work?

    1. Well, obviously. Just look at all that Marxism!

      1. And belly fat.

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    2. Maybe, maybe not; I’m on the not side especially after the riots. The real kicker is seeing video like the one of George Floyd. That wasn’t in the heat of making an arrest, that asshole just killed him calmly in the street over 8+ minutes. In the past the cop could have written a report and no one could prove otherwise, so they got the benefit of the doubt. That benefit is gone and the union can’t negotiate for that one back.

      1. People thought the Rodney King video would be the nail in the coffin of police abuse too. “We caught your asses on video now!” Maybe this time it’s different.

        It took a while to arrest Chauvin and charge him with murder. It could have been a coincidence, but he wasn’t arrested until after a few days of protests. They didn’t charge the other cops with being complicit until more protests demanded it. This was all after the police station was burned down and there were thousands of people in the streets. Would they have been arrested without the protests? Maybe. Hard to say, but they weren’t immediately arrested like anyone else would have been

        Protests rarely get results though. All the protesting of the Iraq War accomplished fuck all.

        1. Chauvin might walk. I’m somewhat sure at least one or two of the four will. The transcript from one of the officer’s body cameras was released the other day: http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12951-TKL/Exhibit207072020.pdf

          From it, and the toxscreen and autopsy, you can make an argument that Floyd was having a heart attack before Officer Knees puts the last nail in. I think Chauvin is likely guilty of Murder 3, but going beyond that might be difficult to prove.

          I wrote it in another thread here, but don’t be surprised if we get the Rodney King jury treatment and riots all over again when this is through.

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        2. I think the protest did help, but the rioting and violence muted the help. I also believe the use of the race card hurt. A LOT. Everybody was outraged after seeing the Floyd video. Playing the race card drew lines between potential allies.

  2. “8 Can’t Wait” sounds like an Imperial Japanese Navy slogan from 1920.

    BLM is more interested in virtue signalling abd raising money than any real reform.

  3. Another day, and yet another day that Reason of course neglects to mention that homicides and violent crime are exploding around the big cities in America. Numbers this year are up 40 to 50 percent over the same time last year.

    I guess bringing up that inconvenient fact wouldn’t help much with the left wing anarchy agenda.

    1. Do you have a citation for that claim? I can think of a few people I’d love to share that with.

      1. Heyjackass.com (really, that’s its address.) is very good about that sort of thing for Chicago. And a brief glance proves WCR’s point.

        4th of July weekend comparisons:

        Final Stupidity Tally: 20 killed, 72 wounded
        2019 weekend tally: 7 killed, 69 wounded* *Different years have different time frames depending on what day the 4th fell on. 2014-2016 & 2020 all ran for 3.75 days, 2013, 2017 & 2019 are 4.75 days and 2018 was a marathon 5.75 days.

        So, shorter time, more wounded, way more dead.

        YTD for 2019 at end of July: 301 dead, 1307 wounded
        YTD for 2020 forecast, end July: 417 dead, 372 dead already. 1549 wounded already.

        Judging from news reports, the carnage isn’t restricted to Chicago.

        1. But crime was spiking before this, too, likely due to lockdowns,wasn’t it? There is just too much craziness going on this year.

    2. Another day? There was an article yesterday about crime going up in NYC.

    3. They actually ran a column yesterday on it.

  4. The other bill will require implicit bias and de-escalation training for local police officers.

    It’s so encouraging to see that the drive to introduce long-debunked pseudoscience into public policy is far from dead.

    1. As long as the de-escalation training is good, it might work out.

      1. Training don’t mean shit without real penalties for ignoring it.

      2. It will probably be just a social justice circle jerk, just like what I had to sit through quarterly when I was in the service with sexual harassment awareness training. Checking a box.

        1. That is part of the problem with all these demands for training.

          In order to get compliance, the training is watered down so that attendees don’t feel like it is this huge onerous burden. But because it is watered down, it’s not actually effective at the training.

          1. also, you’re fat and selfish.

          2. No, the problem is that to often these trainings are conducted by a people of a certain political dogma, and for their own political gain.

  5. Philadelphia voters will also choose this November whether to create a Citizens Police Oversight Commission.

    Which will be like the review boards Philly had for police shootings back in the ’80s, where police refused to show up for hearings, the board was staffed with cop haters, conclusions were written before evidence was received, and the system had no teeth.

    1. Yeah that is the type of thing that these review boards have the potential to turn in to.

      1. Thank you for that comment full of nothing but empty calories.

      2. Many review boards are filled with former cops who side with their own 100% of the time.

        1. And before anyone brings it up again, no I don’t hate cops just because my ex dumped me for one is who rasing my kid.

        2. Maybe make the positions elected officials, like a school board )(although some of them are really bad as well).

  6. About the “civilian oversight boards”. We shouldn’t get too excited about those. There can’t be a legitimate investigation unless the police department cooperates at least a little bit, and if there is no cooperation, then the oversight board investigators can’t do much. It’s also a way to bureaucratize the problem of police abuse, so instead of protesting against bad cops, you’re told to go fill out a form and wait 5 years for the investigation to be completed.

    It has the real possibility of just sweeping the problems under the rug and shoving them to a bureaucracy with little power to do much.

      1. And donuts. I love donuts.

      2. That would be something to try.

        I actually think that things like grand juries and subpoena powers should be more broadly held anyway.

        1. And you’re fat and selfish. Don’t forget that.

    1. Disagree.

      Granted, a lot has to do with how they are structured and what specific powers they are given, but even the minimum of having more eyes on police functions and being able to maintain their own records is a check against the most flagrant abuses, and has the cumulative affect of putting departments on notice that they are being monitored.

      As an example, the prison here use to have volunteers tour the prison (beyond other types of volunteers), try the food, and meet with the warden to discuss concerns in what was more than likely PR than anything else. I believe it was around once a month.

      And even without making recommendations (or the authority) to do so, much of the food service staff was “let go”, more fresh fruit was made available on the menu, and use of force incidences decreased.

      All by just having the public able to peer behind the veil.

      Perhaps the problem is more in citizen review boards being oversold in what they can accomplish. But as a general monitor on abuse, they are effective.

      1. All to often all these solutions are oversold. Reason writers tend to be some of the worst about this, rather it’s testing for COVID, open borders, “free” trade with China or ending qualified immunity. Not that I am opposed to ending qualified immunity, it just will hardly solve anything, really.

  7. Here’s an article about one person’s experience with the NYPD civilian review board. Spoiler: It does not have a happy ending.

    https://www.propublica.org/article/my-family-saw-a-police-car-hit-a-kid-on-halloween-then-i-learned-how-nypd-impunity-works

    1. You’re fat and selfish.

      1. Okay your schtick is completely old now.

        1. So it’s you, but about jeff being fat?

          1. So its me what? Complete your thought.

            1. I did dummy lololo

              1. No, you really didn’t. It’s me what? It is a simple question. This copying people’s names was slightly amusing at first. And because I generally agreed with you to a point, I didn’t say anything. Hell I criticize Jeff all the time, but it has worn itself out a long time ago.

                1. No I did, read better dummy lolol

                2. If his schtick is “old and tired” and he says “it’s you” then you’re old and tired. This isn’t difficult.

                  God damn man how fucking stupid are you.

                  1. Very. The funny part is he thinks I care what some banal nobody thinks.

                    1. As for caring, I could give a rats ass. Really, I was just publicly acknowleding that your little schitck is sophomoric and jejune. I doubt it will persuade you to change. And I fully expected you will now attack me as well. Because, you are nothing if not predictable. Hell, I could care less about Jeff too. I have called him out over his bullshit. You are just as tiresome lately.

                    2. As for caring, I could give a rats ass

                      Your copious whiny bitching says otherwise.

                    3. As does, you multiple responses to my posts, demonstrate how little you care about what some banal nobody thinks.

                    4. As does, you multiple responses to my posts, demonstrate how little you care about what some banal nobody thinks

                      Lol so much for grammar.

                      So you agree it did prove you were lying when you said “As for caring, I could give a rats ass”

                    5. Ah and now soldier has reached the point where he is desperate.

                      And I have to explain that mocking him isn’t the same as what he thinks.

                    6. You know what, continue with your asininity. I personally find it puerile and puts you at the same level of intellectual honesty ad those you choose to mock. Most generally deserve a bit of mocking. Hell, we all deserve some mocking from time to time. I realize engaging you was a mistake. And if you take this as an admission that you won, go ahead. I will admit that you are better at being a troll than I ever could hope to be. Consider this a waving the white flag and an admission that calling out your immature mocking was more trouble than it was worth. Good job, pay yourself on the back.

                    7. “You know what, continue with your asininity”

                      As if he needs your permission

                    8. soldiermedic76
                      July.10.2020 at 5:04 pm
                      You know what

                      You are super butthurt about looking stupid and then getting called out for trying way too hard to overcompensate because you looked stupid we get it

                    9. soldiermedic76
                      July.10.2020 at 5:04 pm
                      I will admit that you are better

                      And here we see the final stage, acceptance.

                  2. Consider for a moment whom you are defending. Literally someone who pulled this number on you all day yesterday. Then you rush to defend him. Yes, that is definitely one possible meaning of the phrase, albeit far from the only one. Grammatically no, so are you is much clearer and less clumsy. So its you reads as a hanging participle. It is neither clear nor a completed thought.
                    As for being fucking stupid, who is stupider, the one calling out the abuser or the the abused who rush to defend him? Stockholm syndrome much?

                    1. As for being fucking stupid, who is stupider

                      That would be you. For falling for it AGAIN and pretending your inability to understand basic English is supported by a weak appeal to grammar.

                      /Tulpa

                    2. (I signed it to save you the embarrassment of making a fool of yourself again)

                    3. Keep digging. I would actually care about your evaluation of my intellectual acuity of you ever actually demonstrated any of your own. Actually, it doesn’t surprise me you rush to defend a sophomoric troll, considering like minded stick together.

                    4. I giess they didn’t teach you about metaphor in grammar class huh dummy?

                    5. Aww now you mad cause you got fooled AND didnt understand English lololol

                      you wanted this smoke bitch

                    6. Actually, it doesn’t surprise me you rush to defend a sophomoric troll,

                      HE STILL THINKS IT WAS CHIPPER AND NOT ME AHAHAHAHH

                      I TOLD HIM IT WAS ME AND HE STILL DIDNT GET IT AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

                      AHAHAHAHAHHAHAH

                    7. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAH

                      HE STILL THINKS IT WAS CHIPPER AHAHAHAHAHAH

                      AND YOU WONDER WHY I DO THIS AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

                      AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAH

                      AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

                      HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHJ

                    8. Hey soldier, that’s Tulpa not Chipper.

                      I would actually care about your evaluation of my intellectual acuity of you ever actually demonstrated any of your own.

                      You were saying?

                    9. Yeah, you are so amusing. Yes, I fell for it. No, I didn’t read the whole thing. Did I make you cum? Because I am pretty sure you’re in your basement (while probably your parents) jerkin’ the gerkin at how amusing you are. Make sure you don’t get the keyboard sticky this time. Or l, considering how often you pull this, your probably shooting dry by now and suffering from friction burns.

                    10. Yeah, you are so amusing. Yes, I fell for it.

                      I would actually care about your evaluation of my intellectual acuity of you ever actually demonstrated any of your own.

                      This is the part where we laugh at you until you inevitably slink away.

                    11. . Did I make you cum?

                      Oh he mad!!!

                      But no we have your mom for that.

                    12. We call what soldier did “getting sarced”

        2. Tulpa does not care at all if he pisses off EVERYONE in these forums, not just the people whom he normally mocks. He has gone beyond narcissism. It is all about self-indulgence. And too many people around here tolerate his antics. He needs therapy, not coddling.

          1. Awww fatty is catty!

            getting maddy fatty?

          2. “It is all about self-indulgence”

            says the guy who admitted he was fat and wants people to keep him safe lololol

          3. Tulpa does not care at all if he pisses off EVERYONE in these forums,

            Jeff casting about for support from people who think you’re a clown like you are there is pretty pathetic

            1. Lolol no you don’t get it someone FINALLY TOOK HIS SIDE and he is going to fuck that until it’s raw.

              Because he cares about stupud shit like internet acceptance lolololol

              1. Yes I already acknowledged how pathetic he is.

          4. He’s using my name now which is messed up. Dude is psychotic.

            1. isnt it funny how you guys get so desperate and turn “fucking around on the internet ” into “psychotic”.

              its almost like youre mad and desperate progs screeching “white supremacy!!!” all the time lololl

              1. Hi I’m sarcasmic I am a drunk depressive who hangs onto minor police incidents for decades and cannot stop crying about them, but consider fucking around on the internet “psychotic”

                This is of course why I am roundly mocked every day of my life.

              2. Your “fucking around on the internet” is disrupting everyone’s ability to have a productive conversation.

                When you go into a room full of strangers just chatting with each other, do you immediately turn over tables, smash the glassware, pound on the walls, and start yelling lewd comments? Because that’s the equivalent of what you do here every single fucking day. Just because you can’t physically see the people commenting here doesn’t change how rude your behavior is.

                1. Your “fucking around on the internet” is disrupting everyone’s ability to have a productive conversation

                  PSYCHOPATHY!!!

                  Oh wait, no literally nothing. Nice USSR move there.

                  Think about how desperate you must be to cast someone who disrupts your meaningless wanking as mentally ill.

                  Especially after whining when people did it to SQRLSY LOLOLOL

                2. This isn’t a room full of strangers and there are no tables or glassware. You can flag him and he’s gone frpm your sight.

                  You analogy, like most of them you try, is retarded.

                  1. He is demanding that he gets everyone’s attention with his rude behavior. That’s the point of my analogy.

                    Sure I can flag his comments, and I do, but it still turns into a comment page with more flagged comments than legit ones. That’s fucked up and a sign of his mental issues.

                    1. And it was a stupid analogy that doesn’t apply.

                      As far as demanding, could you be more histrionic?

                      This is why people let him do this to you. You’re garbage but pretend to be high minded and we hate how you flaunce about misrepresenting the world and constantly making yourself the victim of feigned offenses.

                    2. That’s fucked up and a sign of his mental issues.

                      I was present for the conversation where you tried to shame Tulpa for talking about SQRLSY’S apparent schizoid issues. Now you’re doing it out of anger.

                      So, you’re ok with being a hypocrite I guess? Or will this be another one of your self-excusing debacles?

                    3. Sure I can flag his comments, and I do, but it still turns into a comment page with more flagged comments than legit ones. That’s fucked up and a sign of his mental issues.

                      I have had to do this with your comments many times Jeff with the same result.

                      Should I take that to mean you are admitting you have mental issues?

                    4. And it was a stupid analogy that doesn’t apply.

                      I disagree. When I picture Tulpa joining in a conversation, I picture something like this, but without the literal violence.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhSqGupieog

                      This is why people let him do this to you. You’re garbage but pretend to be high minded and we hate how you flaunce about misrepresenting the world and constantly making yourself the victim of feigned offenses.

                      “We”? How many people are you pretending to speak for?

                      You do realize that a person’s perspective is shaped by their own lived experiences, right? You and I can both observe the same event and come to very different conclusions on what transpired, and neither one of us would be lying. You think I am “misrepresenting the world” but I am not. I am interpreting the world through my own set of experiences, which is the only way that I can. You are interpreting the world through your own set of experiences. Neither one of us is necessarily incorrect. There are some obviously objective truths based on physical laws of nature, but beyond that, there is just an awful lot of gray.

                      But that some people think I am supposedly “garbage” because I supposedly “misrepresent the world” only means that they hate me for my politics. Because I don’t interpret the world in the way that they interpret the world, having the arrogance to believe that their way is the “correct” way and all others are “garbage”.

                      Libertarians should have more humility than that. There is no one single correct way to view the world. Everyone is a unique individual who has their own dignity and self-respect. And we ought to be mindful of that.

                    5. I disagree

                      Right but you’re an idiot.

                      When I picture Tulpa joining in a conversation

                      No one cares.

                    6. You do realize that a person’s perspective is shaped by their own lived experiences, right?

                      Ladies and gentlemen, Jeff going full prog.

                      I realise you’re a loser.

                      But that’s “your truth” right you pathetic prog fuck?

                    7. people think I am “garbage” because I supposedly “misrepresent the world”

                      I saw you attack Tulpa fof hours because he was talking about SQLRSY’S posts and how they had REAL signs of mental health problems.

                      You did that multiple times today, and even after it was brought to your attention you kept right on.

                      That makes you garbage. Point blank. You don’t like that?

                      Stop being garbage. Be a fucking man and admit doing that was wrong. If it was wrong when Tulpa did it you don’t get a pass.

                      Oh right this is where you whine at me for not gong after Tulpa. Because you don’t realize you’re asking me to treat you like you are him. Are you a troll too?

                    8. You have to ask?

                    9. Is that you JesseAZ? You are the one impersonating all the people you hate, isn’t it? Your style of speech and the type of gratuitous insults you throw out, along with your kneejerk labeling of anything that isn’t right-wing as “going full prog”, suggests that you are the culprit here.

                      Why don’t you stop impersonating people and start posting under your customary screen name.

                      And what is your precise disagreement with my statement here, other than you view it through your moronic tribalistic brain as “going full prog”?

                      You do realize that a person’s perspective is shaped by their own lived experiences, right?

                      Suppose a person told you that he was learning how to shoot. What would your reaction be? Would it be appreciative? Anxious? Neutral? Do you think your reaction would depend on your own experience with guns in the past? What if your experience was in a gun-friendly house where familiarity with guns was commonplace? What if your experience was in a gun-hostile household? What if you personally had experienced gun violence against you? Do you think any of those experiences would influence how you would view the desire by others to learn how to use a gun?

                    10. Is that you JesseAZ?

                      Because it has to be your proclaimed enemies that criticize you?

                      You were saying about mental issues?

                    11. Oh fuck Jeff went full paranoid lunatic.

                    12. You did that multiple times today, and even after it was brought to your attention you kept right on.

                      That makes you garbage. Point blank. You don’t like that?

                      Stop being garbage. Be a fucking man and admit doing that was wrong. If it was wrong when Tulpa did it you don’t get a pass.

                      I do think Tulpa is suffering from mental issues. Possibly Narcissist Personality Disorder. He seems to care very very little about anyone other than himself. I’m not doing this to shame him. It is an observation. I’ve said over and over that I think Tulpa should get some therapy. I’m not laughing at him about it or mocking him. This is in contrast with Tulpa’s accusations of mental illness against SQRSLY, which were used as weapons to shame and humiliate him. He was trying to humiliate and ridicule him using a claim of mental illness to do so. I find that type of behavior to be downright appalling. Mental illness is enough of a problem that people don’t deserve to be mocked and shamed and humiliated over it. That is the difference in the approach I take vs. the approach Tulpa took. It is a difference in context. It is not wrong per se to make a claim that someone is mentally ill. It *is* wrong to use it as an insult or a tool of humiliation. I don’t do that. Tulpa does.

                      Furthermore I have a hunch that this one little episode is the full and complete reason that you think I am “garbage”.

                    13. So I didn’t read it but I’m going to go with my gut and say that nowhere in that steaming pile of Jeff is there any mea culpa

                    14. Why don’t you read it and see for yourself.

                    15. “This is in contrast with Tulpa’s accusations of mental illness against SQRSLY, ”

                      It’s always different when you do it hypocrite.

                    16. Because he’s garbage.

                    17. I told you precisely why. It’s not “always right when I do it”. I make mistakes too. I am sometimes wrong as well. But in this case, that’s not it. If you disagree, then please show where. It is more complicated than simply “you both made a claim of mental illness therefore you’re both wrong”.

                    18. well yeah he’s a fat hypocrite

                    19. “But in this case, that’s not it”

                      Of course you’d say that hypocrite.

                      “It is more complicated ”

                      Uh huh this is where you always go, the “reasons” why your offense isn’t one. Hypocrite

                    20. Making excuses for yourself when you’re caught Behaving Badly makes you less respectable not more Jeff

                    21. And now we’ve reach the point where Jeff pisses on us and tells us it’s raining

                    22. Uh huh this is where you always go, the “reasons” why your offense isn’t one. Hypocrite

                      So in your view, is it always wrong to claim someone is suffering from mental illness? If it is not always wrong, then when do you think it would be acceptable, and when do you think it wouldn’t be?

                    23. Jeff really seems to think that after spending years changing his arguments based on the people involved, that we don’t know he changes his arguments based on the people involved.

                    24. It’s because he’s garbage.

                    25. And he gets told he’s an excuse making hypocrite which for some silly reason he thinks he can mitigate by making excuses for his obvious hypocrisy

                    26. It’s different because “tulpa” NOT because Jeff is garbage.

                      No sir.

                    27. So, what precisely is the standard that you think I am failing to meet in this case? “It’s wrong to accuse someone else of mental illness”? Is that your standard? If so, then yes, in your view, I’m a hypocrite. But I don’t think that is a reasonable standard to take. I think it depends very much on how that claim is made. Do you disagree? If so, why?

                      Fine you think I’m a hypocrite, I will never change your mind on that matter, I get that. But perhaps we can have a productive conversation on what the proper standard ought to be.

                    28. I’m beginning to suspect, Mr. Rabbi, that you think I am “garbage” for reasons that go beyond this one simple incident about mental health.

                    29. And? You’ve been polluting the comments for years.

                      But go ahead. Try to use that to excuse your hypocrisy. It is your move.

                    30. Jeff is mad because Tulpa disrupts his trolling, there’s nothing more to it.

                    31. Yes Jeff is garbage

                    32. I have explained the reasoning behind my actions. You don’t accept it. Fine, there’s nothing more that I can do. I don’t think you will be satisfied until I adopt your standard of behavior, which is – I am inferring here, since you haven’t actually articulated a standard – that any accusation of mental illness is wrong no matter what. I have asked you to explain what you think the standard ought to be and you just repeat yourself with claims of hypocrisy. You won’t be happy unless I partake in some act of submission in some way because you simply don’t like me as a human being regardless of this particular incident. Well there’s nothing I can really do about that.

                    33. And I have explained that you’re an obvious excuse-making hypocrite persisting won’t change that

                3. “Your “fucking around on the internet” is disrupting everyone’s ability to have a productive conversation”

                  So go to quora again you soft bitch

            2. He really does have mental issues I think. He has at least a half-dozen accounts each with various socks that he uses to disrupt conversations and make it so that it’s all about HIM. I’m sure he hates me (and probably you, and Chipper, etc.) but I genuinely don’t hate him. I feel sorry for him.

              1. “He really does have mental issues”

                And now Jeff, desperate to cement an alliance with a drunk depressive, forgets how he bleated when people were discussing his boo SQRSLY and his mental issues lololl

                1. Well yeah, I’m a fat hypocrite. I only care about looking smart to people who couldn’t care less about me and I can’t even do that right.

                  1. You’re both losers.

                  2. And this impersonation thing that you do Tulpa is beyond pathetic.

                    1. having fun at the expense of a fat douche = pathetic

                      trolling a website where you are roundly hated while you pryend to be a libertarian but stan for progs constantly = “constructive conversation”

                      LOLOLOLOLOL

                    2. And now Jeff has me agreeing with Tulpa. Fuck

                    3. Both are fucking tiresome most of the time, just for different reasons. Tulpa’s schtick just turns these chats into a junior high locker room. And ChemJeff… Well, need I say more. And White Knight just pisses me off most of the time. Tulpa is just getting as worn out as Squirely or Hihn.

                    4. Aww soldiers mad because I made him look stupid.

                    5. Disclaimer: This is not a copied handle. Yes, I made myself look stupid. No, not mad, chagrined with myself. I made some fairly obvious mistaken statements because I didn’t read your posts all the way through and tried at one point to lower myself to junior high masturbatory insults to mock you. I admit it was a complete waste of my time and I ended up looking foolish. It was a mistake to try and engage you. Or to even point out originally how mendacious and jejune your schtick is. No, I guess I just can’t be intellectually dishonest enough to hold a conversation with you and should have refrained from trying too. No, I don’t give a rats ass what you think but I do care how I allowed myself to be lured into a fruitless, adolescent conversation. I am not mad at you, but am upset with myself. I am sure you will claim some form of victory, so knock yourself out.

                    6. ” No, not mad”

                      So mad.

                    7. soldiermedic76
                      July.10.2020 at 5:17 pm
                      Disclaimer: This is not a copied handle. Yes, I made myself look stupid. blah blah blah but I do care

                      Lol I always love the desperate attempts by the people I clown to salvage some dignity after they claim intellectual superiority but then get fooled by a fake screen name lololol

                      “jejune” was a nice touch Mr Try too hard lololll

                    8. Yeah, you win. You trolled me. Yes, I was trying to recapture some dignity, for myself. Because I did allow myself to be trolled and even worse, I didn’t realize at first your tactics, and even when you signed it, I didn’t bother reading the whole thing before I replied. So yes I embarrassed myself. I don’t disagree with my evaluation of your tactics. But I should never have bothered engaging you after your response to my first statement. Yes, I do care in that I generally try to be more aware and more thoughtful (and for some reason Jeff thinks I was defending him rather than just calling you out) I don’t care about your actions so much as my own juvenile response to them. I stand by my assessment, and am glad I posted my original statement about your schtick, but any response after that I regret for my own sake. Don’t feed the trolls, but I just gave you a buffet.

          5. >>He has gone beyond narcissism.

            sells the role. thorough

            1. That he has.

              1. AHAHAHAH HE WAS TALKING ABOUT YOU DUMBASS

                AHAHAHAJ YOU JUST ADMITTIED YOU WERE BEYOND NARCISSISM AHAHAAAJA

                1. Saw that, god jeff’s a dope lol

            2. I am tired of all the socks, on both sides. Especially when they start responding to each other or, in Tulpa’s case, copying handles and then responding. It makes having anything resembling an intellectual conversation tedious. Also, I am not a huge fan of dishonesty, especially intellectual dishonesty. Also, the whole schtick doesn’t even reach the level of a Pee-Wee Herman sketch. And I was never a huge fan of his show.

              1. And why pray tell do you think someone who clearly doesn’t care should care suddenly dummy?

                1. I don’t think you could care. I was stating my own opinion mainly because, to be honest, I call out the lefty libertarians all the time, but I rarely call out the rights trolls, and to be perfectly honest, I try to maintain some semblance of intellectual honesty. So, I voiced my displeasure of your tactics, not to change you but for my own benefit. Not for what others think about me, but because I felt it was the honest thing to do. I hardly am defending Jeff. But if I am willing to attack Jeff and TheRev and Tony etc, than I must also be willing to voice displeasure with those who are more idealistically aligned with myself.

                  1. You were replying to Tulpa there.

                  2. Oh sorry should have read the whole comment first. 🙂

                    to be honest, I call out the lefty libertarians all the time, but I rarely call out the rights trolls

                    And frankly this is one reason why these comments frequently turn into a dumpster fire, ALONG WITH when the reverse happens as well. All of us, myself included, sometimes tolerate bad behavior from people if it’s done against people we don’t like, when in reality, we should not be tolerating bad behavior on anyone’s part even if it’s by those we tend to agree with.

                    We all, myself included, all ought to hold ourselves to higher standards of behavior, but the Internet being what it is, it’s too easy to treat the people on the other side of a conversation as just a pile of electrons instead of a real human being.

                    It just gets very very tiring when trolls like Tulpa seem to take it as their life’s mission to follow me around, along with Chipper, White Knight, etc., from discussion to discussion to discussion, endlessly mocking and having fun at everyone else’s expense, and just behaving like the complete narcissist that he is.

                    1. Aww youre gonna cry again

              2. This is all just a big joke to him. He loves having a laugh at everyone else’s expense even if it means completely disrupting everyone’s conversations.

                1. You don’t need to defend me, I wasn’t defending you. I was just being honest about what I thought and should never have bothered responding to him in the first place.

                  1. I am glad that you did though, in this case. I am just tired of his juvenile antics being silently tolerated by everyone else.

                    1. See you guys think I am divisive but I just brought you two together, solidarity amongst two people I clowned, I’m a bridge builder

                    2. No, I will admit that you beat me today Tulpa. But I won’t admit I was defending Jeff nor that we came together. That is a bridge to far. That does anger me a bit. Because it misrepresents what I was doing and why I did it.

  8. Two points: yes, any meaningful reform at the federal level is dead for now because both sides feel they benefit from not actually fixing anything.
    Secondly, most reform should be handled at the state and local level. Which is what is happening. Yay for federalism.

  9. About the BREATHE Act:
    Section 1 actually looks pretty promising. I don’t agree with all of it, maybe 80% of it though.
    It’s the rest of it that goes off the rails.

    I understand, that in the left-wing mind, all of the problems are interconnected and doing something “meaningful” about police abuse means doing something “meaningful” about education, and the environment, and social welfare, and a whole host of other issues because that is one way to mitigate people having to interact with the police in the first place. So they inevitably load up their “police reform” bill with a whole bunch of other crap. But honestly the rest of that stuff can wait. There is a hunger to do something about police abuse right now, there is not a hunger to do something sweeping regarding education right now.

    1. “About the BREATHE Act:”

      You can’t because you’re fat and out of shape?

    2. Not sure about banning all federal prisons. Some crimes are definitely federal, and should be (treason, espionage etc) but maybe if we drastically reduce the number of federal laws we could decrease the number of prisons dramatically. Of course I have a feeling BLM and their progressive allies would be opposed to eliminating most federal laws, except the drug ones. In fact, I bet they have no problem with federalizing even more laws that should be handled at the state or local level.

      1. Yeah, I don’t see how all federal prisons can be eliminated either. Drastically reducing the number of laws would definitely be a step in the right direction.

        1. The same for ICE detention. Maybe place most in a halfway house, until their hearings and detain the 2oret ones or anyone that fails at the halfway house?

          1. We should get rid of ICE for the same reason we should get rid of ATF. Why does there need to be some special police agency for certain crimes? Then it creates another bureaucracy with its own interests to be pursued in the halls of power.

            1. you should get rid of that giant spare tire you call a gut fatty

            2. In a perfect world we would eliminate all federal police agencies except the Marshal Service and Postal Inspectors and relegate all policing actions to the Marshals. Even border patrol could be handled by the Marshal. But the functions of ICE could still exist, though reformed. I think the fear of eliminating ICE from most is the fear that not all of its functions are bad, but if they are eliminated will anyone take over those functions. It is the same with the defund the police movement. Generally these are empty rhetoric, and few address the actual process.

              1. Well it’s no surprise that I don’t think most of what ICE does should be done at all. ICE is basically an entire agency dedicated to the proposition of no-knock raids, just against businesses instead of individuals.

                I agree that “defund the police” is a really stupid name for a police reform movement and it gave the reactionary demagogues out there a perfect opening to scare people into voting their preferred way.

                1. I do however think the world should accommodate me because I’m fat and selfish, and I hide that behind disingenuous argumens because being fat is embarrassing.

        2. And the reason you can’t see it is because youre so fat your face has swollen shut amirite fatty?

          member how selfish you are fatboy? We do.

    3. Of course, the social welfare they’re proposing is what Democrats who run major cities have been promising their Black citizens for decades, only to forget about them after Election Day.

      1. Or arguably the very cause of much of the problems in the first place.

  10. Banning tear gas and possibly rubber bullets, though, seems likely to backfire. Also, reading some of these reforms, I do hope they placed some common sense exceptions (yes, I know to some the mere presence of exceptions is just permission to abuse). For instance the ban on no-knock raids, maybe an exception for hostage situations were silent entry is used to preserve the life of the hostage? Not sure about that one. But the other I see a problem with is the warning before shooting. I hope there is an exception that if the perpetrator fires first, that a warning doesn’t need to be given. I would have to see how these laws are worded.

    1. That’s the problem though. Almost all the things initially came from legitimate uses which became legal exception that the police then started to claim applied to every situation. After all, all police ability to act is a set of exceptions to the laws in place to which they are still, technically, subject.

      There is a time and place for no knock raids, shooting without warning, and forceful crowd control, etc. And thus we have already created exceptions for them, and then the police slowly made their use more and more common until they are practically default actions now.

      What we need is for the separate legal system police have created for themselves to be abolished, and thus charge them just like anyone else but provide for positive defenses in cases which specifically partain to actual police work. But that won’t happen unless we create actual penalties for DAs and judges who collude with police. But that won’t happen because only us angry peasants will entertain the idea of holding DAs and judges liable for anything.

      So we’re left with choosing between banning tools that are occasionally necessary, or allowing those tools to be abused as a matter of course. It’s a stupid false dichotomy, but we’ve managed to make it a real choice. As always, I hope I’m wrong.

      1. I doubt it, you are all too right. I also suspect these laws are just as stupid as the ones they are replacing. Probably 300 pages long, in convoluted language that creates huge ambiguity and the outcome will end up being just as bad as the problem they were supposed to fix. As for a seperated legal system, I don’t support that so much, but I see little actual recourse. Cops work with DAs closely, it is only realistic that they develop a close relationship. While I was a nurse, I worked with cops often in the ER. It got me out of more than one ticket. I didn’t even have to ask to get out of them. They just let me go. Where I work today, the deputies are in all the time, also. It has also got me out of tickets. A civilian oversight committee if properly constructed, possibly. I don’t know.

    2. Also any ban on no knock raid is kinda of toothless if they can still operate at the crack of dawn when the suspect is still sleeping. Takes me a good 5-10 minutes in the morning before I am completely conscience and functioning.

  11. “Scott, the only black GOP senator, …”
    It seams that tagline always appears after Sen Scott’s name.
    Guess how many black Dem senators there are now.

    1. They aren’t racist like the evil GOP, so let’s assume it’s dozens and not look it up.

    2. Yeah, even Reason has its blatant double standards.

    3. Must be at least five or so, because Democrats would demand that representation be equal to population, right?

  12. Police reform is indeed long overdue.
    We need to have a bounty system for every cop that kills an innocent, and especially an innocent unarmed suspect. The cop will get two weeks paid vacation, a bonus of $10,000 per suspect, tax free and free doughnuts for a month.
    Plus, we need more snitches. A good police has to have a lot of people willing to rat out their neighbors especially those families who are dastardly enough to have their kids run a lemonade stand with a permit or license.
    Lastly, we need to upgrade the militarization of the police. They desperately need M1A1 Abrams tanks, F-16s and a few nukes to ensure peace in our neighborhoods.
    All other considerations must take a back seat to these humble yet vital suggestions if we are to enjoy living in a free, tolerant and peaceful police state.

    1. Don’t forget the mandatory veneration of police in every public venue.

      1. or that you’re fat.

        1. You forgot to change to your sock puppet account. Oopsy.

          1. lol nope but nice try

  13. Folks who are now calling me about the legislation from the other side suggest that perhaps it’s not dead,” Scott said.

    Of course it’s not dead. It’s just tuckered out after a long squawk. Or maybe it’s pining for the fjords.

  14. When Black Lives Matter protesters start protesting the killing of blacks by other blacks as much as it does when the police kills a black person I will start to think that when they say “Black Lives Matter” that the demonstrators mean what they say. When they add to that saying by requiring Black Men to be fathers to the children that they procreate then maybe they really mean what they are saying and protesting for. If there were more black fathers of the children they spawn and being a role model to show these children how to grow into a responsible adult then it will be evident that they mean what they are saying and demonstrating for.

  15. Support your local police and keep them independent!

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