New Zealand's Mandatory Buyback Program Leaked Gun Owners' Personal Info

Law enforcement betrayed the trust of gun owners who were doing their best to comply with government-mandated confiscation.

Law-abiding gun owners who complied with New Zealand's mandatory gun buyback program and surrendered their assault weapons to the government discovered Monday that their privacy had been compromised by poor website security.

This week, the police website for New Zealand's mandatory military-style semi-automatic assault weapons (MSSA) buyback was taken offline after a gun dealer told law enforcement that he was able to access users' personal information through the site. This info included the names, addresses, dates of birth, gun license numbers, and bank account details of users. As many as 38,000 site users may have been affected, and the website will remain shut down until police can guarantee that the information is secure. Law enforcement currently believes that only dealer users had access to the sensitive information, not the public.

New Zealand implemented its gun buyback program after a March 15 attack on two mosques in Christchurch left 51 people dead. Six days after the attack, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern announced that all military-style firearms, like the ones the killer had used, would be banned, in addition to large-capacity magazines and any parts that would make a gun readily convertible into an MSSA (such as telescoping stocks). The ban passed through New Zealand's parliament, 119-1, in April. Those who owned these guns or accessories were ordered to surrender them to the government.

The Guardian reported that the security breach was made public when the Council of Licensed Firearms Owners (COLFO), a gun lobby group, revealed that 15 people had reached out to them claiming that they were able to access users' personal information through the buyback portal. The group posted screenshots of the information one of the users had shared with COLFO (the identifying information has been redacted).

COLFO tells Reason that the organization is currently in the process of contacting the 19 individuals who claim to have been able to access sensitive information on the buyback website to "ascertain the extent of the access" each individual had.

New Zealand's deputy police commissioner, Mike Clement, placed the blame for the breach on SAP, the German company that custom-built the website for the buyback. Clement said that SAP had unintentionally provided some users with greater access to other users' personal data than should have been possible when it updated the site and that he could not "offer an absolute ironclad" assurance that users' information had not been abused.

SAP has since claimed responsibility, stating that 66 gun dealer users had accidentally been given access to other users' private information as a result of human error last week.

New Zealand's buyback program gives citizens the option to surrender their weapons to gun dealers after they fill out an online form with details about their firearms. New Zealand has no reliable registration records of MSSAs because previous laws made the country's registration process relatively easy to skirt, so the form helps fill in those gaps. The individual then surrenders their arms to a dealer, who turns the surrendered items over to law enforcement. Dealers are not supposed to have access to individuals' personal information. In other words, law enforcement betrayed the trust of gun owners who were doing their best to comply with a government-mandated confiscation program.

Roughly 43,000 weapons had been turned in through the buyback so far. The program seeks to completely eradicate the estimated 175,000 MSSAs in private hands by December 20, after which police will begin prosecuting people who have not surrendered their weapons. With only 16 days of the buyback left, only about 25 percent of the guns estimated to be in private hands have been voluntarily surrendered. The owners of the other 75 percent of New Zealand's MSSAs could face up to three years in prison or a $4,000 fine if they fail to meet the deadline.

The police already think that many people will refuse to surrender their newly-banned firearms. A data breach compromising the personal information of gun owners who complied with the law will surely encourage further noncompliance from those who were already resistant to the idea of turning in their guns.

Comments

[Ron]

so now the bad guys know where the good guys have no guns and will proceed to rob them or worse

[Fist of Etiquette]

The owners of the other 75 percent of New Zealand's MSSAs could face up to three years in prison or a $4,000 fine if they fail to meet the deadline.

If it takes sending armed men and women to the doorsteps of those people, we can rest assured any ensuing, state-initiated gun violence will be worth it.

[Duke of url]

The moral of the story is, NEVER register your arms with governments.

[Fat Mike's Drug Habit]

Firearm registration is explicitly banned by state law where I live. I wouldn't want to make myself a criminal.

[OneSimpleLesson]

You're such a law abiding citizen/statist...

[Longtobefree]

On the other hand, having at least one registered firearm you are willing to surrender is not the worst option available.
"Sure, officer, here you go; this is my registered Ruger 10/22."
Oh, that big old safe in the corner? That is where I keep my tax records.

[Duke of url]

Not the RUGER!!!!

[vek]

That's actually exactly my thinking if any kind of confiscation BS ever comes up. I own arms that are so old as to not be on any lists (I know the feds claim to destroy data on background checks, but I don't buy it, and the dealers have to maintain records too which could theoretically be gone through), and some that are on lists... Just do a little creative handing over, and all is well!

[vek]

But I'm NOT handing over my Ruger 10/22! I got that for my 11th birthday from my father god damn it!

[LeaveTrumpAloneLibertarian]

Because you never know when you’ll want to have a shootout with the federal government. I mean, goodness, people could go off their rocker and elect another Black person... and then where would we be!

[Zeb]

You are really bad at this.

[Dariush]

“Because you never know when you’ll want to have a shootout with the federal government.”

Yes asshole, it’s all a fantasy that a gov’t would usurp the will of the people. One of your Democrat avatars said he would use force to take away citizens firearms. Yet, you post this stupid condescending, mocking, and elitist sarcasm as if taking your side’s own statements seriously is delusional. I guess the violence in Hong Kong and Iran is something that could never happen here in your mind. Crack open a history book and learn something. Maybe that will dampen your impulse to post the ignorant and embarrassing primal screams you fart out at us everyday.

[LeaveTrumpAloneLibertarian]

Listen... i’m More sympathetic than you know. I mean, we have a crime boss as President who’s running a racketeering scheme to line his family’s pockets and then using equipment purchased through our taxpayer dollars as a means to drum up dirt on his political opponents. That sounds like some real South American Hugo Chavez like shit to me. So, you know, I do spend a part of my time wondering why there aren’t Molotov cocktails flying on the streets of Washington DC. OTOH, i’m Completely lazy so if you want to start gunning it out with the Border Patrol or the DEA or any number of Dear Leader’s full-of-shit corrupt asshole toadies... hey, i’m With you in spirit. There’s certainly good cause. Good luck and Godspeed to you, gun nut.

[BYODB]

I mean, we have a crime boss as President who’s running a racketeering scheme to line his family’s pockets and then using equipment purchased through our taxpayer dollars as a means to drum up dirt on his political opponents.

But enough about John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson.

[Zeb]

Or all the rest, for that matter. The federal government is the biggest extortion racket ever.

[Dariush]

“ Listen… i’m More sympathetic than you know.”

And he responds by sharting. How embarrassing.

[R Mac]

What a fuckhead.

[Chipper Jones]

Just give up your guns; government's got nukes anyway brah.

Great campaign slogan.

[Domer]

Better than "No Malarkey" lol

[Robert Ore]

It’s not the “people” wanting to have a shootout with the Government.

It’s the Government wanting to have a shootout with the people.

See:
Ruby Ridge
Fast and Furious
Rhogena Nicholas
Dennis Tuttle
Kent State
Birmingham Campaign of 1963
Andrew Finch
Jordan Edwards

[C. S. P. Schofield]

No. The moral of the story is that nobody should trust a government’s promise to keep information confidential. Ever.

[Fat Mike's Drug Habit]

Do New Zealand gun owners have the same propensity for losing all their guns in unfortunate boating accidents as Americans do? Sounds like the next 18 days would be prime boating weather.

[Zeb]

Sailing is a major sport and leisure activity there. And it's just about summertime.

[KiwiLib]

Yes we do. Hence the police and various government ministers sounding more and more desperate in their calls for people to turn in their stuff.

[BYODB]

Sounds like you can just, you know, pay $4000 and be fine. Thus the jail time component is really only there to make sure the lower classes know their place.

In short, it's absurd. This is literally what disparate impact looks like.

Of course, given that New Zealand isn't the U.S. I really couldn't give fewer fucks about how they decide to screw over their own people.

[Apollonius]

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Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as a heritage of all men, in all lands, everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors.

Abraham Lincoln

[Longtobefree]

Gee, you know, maybe we should pass a constitutional amendment that guarantees the US governments will never take away our natural right to keep and bear arms.

[OneSimpleLesson]

But who would vote for it?

[darkflame]

NZ has 4.8m people, of which only 8800 are police officers and another 6500 are army (about 4500 army regulars and 2000 territorial, think National Guard). There are 300,000 licensed gun owners in NZ, with an estimated 1.5m guns. That's not including people who own stuff off the record. If the cops want to start kicking down doors, I have a feeling they're not gonna like the results.

[Ron]

this is one of those where experimentation will play out. However it seems most in the past have surrendered their rights so why not New Zelanders as well

[darkflame]

eh, not too many people have complied so far... and even among those who have, they might have turned in 1 gun and kept a few others, it doesn't look to me like the people are surrendering.

[Brett Bellmore]

The problem, long term, is that once you're in the "I'm not surrendering this gun the government doesn't know about!" position, it's largely useless to you. You don't dare take it hunting, you can't practice with it at the range, you're going down if you use it in self defense. It becomes a pure liability, short of a revolution.

So all the gun owners do by refusing to comply is buy time, the next generation will be disarmed if they don't use that time to reverse the ban.

[BigChiefWahoo]

Ironically, many of those un-surrendered guns will eventually end up on the black market, and ultimately, in the hands of people who have no compunction of flouting any and all laws. Getting "tough" with lawful gun owners will ultimately work against law and order. And the gun controllers are too stupid to see that.

[Brett Bellmore]

No they're not: That provides an additional excuse to disarm the law abiding. Which is the goal here: Criminals are no threat to the government, on the contrary, criminals provide government with an excuse for its deprivations.

[TimK]

It sounds like a potentially tragic situation will unfold should they try to enforce the law.

[Granite]

Hopefully this fucks the New Zealanders in the ass sooner than later (the gun buy back, not the website leak). The sooner demonstrable proof of the vulnerability of turning in guns is made known to the world, the sooner we can end these laws against guns in the US. They’ll be our New Zealand pigs.

[Sometimes a Great Notion]

If only, look at how socialist point to Sweden as a model when Sweden dumped socialism awhile back (still have a welfare state, but are pretty free market).

[librich]

I wonder how many of the Reason staff, or those commenting, have spent time in NZ. It's one of only two countries in the world where cops on the beat don't carry firearms. The NZ government is small and solvent, with a disinclination to meddle in other countries' affairs. No homeless people on the street. More economic freedom than the US, according to Cato. Seven political parties. Is it possible that a different culture than our own can do without assault weapons and still preserve the values of freedom and liberty?

[BYODB]

Is it possible that a different culture than our own can do without assault weapons and still preserve the values of freedom and liberty?

Doubtful, actually, in the long term.

Of course, democracy itself isn't terribly viable long term either so perhaps this shouldn't surprise.

[Zeb]

I can't say I know for sure. But NZ got to be the nice country it is with relatively loose gun laws. Whether that has anything to do with anything, I can't say.
But it always amazes me how readily and rapidly some countries can turn around on guns (always toward more restrictive laws). Happened in Australia and the UK too. One nasty incident of mass murder is all it took. It's like no one ever considered the possibility. If you favor gun rights and are honest, you have to acknowledge that such things are a possibility (which they are with or without gun control/bans).
The US has the second amendment, but there is also something very different in the culture.

[Fat Mike's Drug Habit]

I think the difference in culture has a lot to do with how those countries got their independence. The USA did it with violent revolution, something possible largely because our forefathers were armed to the teeth. We weren't able to achieve independence peacefully, so our appreciation for weapons of war is baked right into the national identity.

Many of the other former British colonies achieved independence much more peacefully. They weren't founded on violent revolution, and as such they don't value the means of violent revolution the way Americans do.

[BYODB]

Many of the other former British colonies achieved independence much more peacefully. They weren’t founded on violent revolution, and as such they don’t value the means of violent revolution the way Americans do.

Sure, we learned how to fight back against tyranny when the other colonies learned that if they wait long enough the empire will just crumble around them and be replaced by something worse.

Notably, we're doing a lot better than any of Britain's other lost colonies.

So I guess I'm trying to say I'll take the American model over, say, the Hong Kong or India model any day.

[Fat Mike's Drug Habit]

Agree completely, we might have ended up "free" without the war but I'm glad we didn't wait to find out. I'm not saying the violent revolution was a bad thing, just that we're essentially the only colony that tried it.

There's also an argument to be made that perhaps Britain wouldn't have been so willing to peacefully relinquish those other colonies had they not learned some hard lessons from the American revolution.

[Zeb]

Or they managed to hold onto the other colonies for so long because of lessons learned from the American revolution. I think it had a lot more to do with WWII.

The American revolution is pretty unique among revolutions. It really wasn't all that revolutionary. The people running it didn't want to overturn the existing social order, or depose an elite aristocracy. They wanted to keep their common law and more or less British social traditions, just without some king and parliament thousands of miles away having arbitrary power over them. And I think that's why it worked. British law and social organization worked pretty well, and Americans made some modifications that made it work even better.
More radical revolutions generally don't work out so well because you either end up with a tyrant or people who have no idea what to do next.

[LarryA]

I’m not saying the violent revolution was a bad thing, just that we’re essentially the only colony that tried it.
Well, no. England was at war or fighting other revolutions pretty constantly through the 1700s. One of the other reasons the British Army couldn't defeat the Colonials was that they were fighting three other wars at the same time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_Kingdom

[vek]

It was nothing but a blessing that we killed Brits and gained our freedom.

Although America has gone downhill TONS in terms of freedom in the last several decades, we never would have reached the peak freedom of the 1800s that we did without the revolution. We never would have become so economically successful and attracted so many talented immigrants from other parts of Europe. And a million other things.

Our violent revolution was one of the greatest things to ever happen in the history of the world. And yes, it does tinge our culture with respect to arms. A nation born out of revolution obviously will value the ability to revolt more. As we should. The other British colonies are basically just naive because they've existed as overly protected children for so long, and not had to deal with the harsh reality that shit could go wrong someday.

[Miss Fortune]

“Never let a crisis go to waste,” said some guy.

[Brett Bellmore]

" But it always amazes me how readily and rapidly some countries can turn around on guns (always toward more restrictive laws). "

Once you lose the mechanisms of cultural transmission, the schools and the media, even if they're unrepresentative of larger society, in the end you lose everything

Because you don't transmit to the next generation the reasons for all of it.

There's a reason the left always try to take over the schools and the media. They know how important they are. The right says, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

The left? They say, "Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past."

The left are stupid about a lot of things, but not about how to gain and hold power.

[darkflame]

you would think, considering WWII and NZ's fear of being invaded by Japan early on (when the UK was still recovering from Dunkirk and couldn't support its colonies), and then also looking at China's increasing expansionist tendancies, you just MIGHT want to have an armed populace, a la USA. But hey, what do I know.

[vek]

Cucks gon' cuck I guess. Because literally one stupid shooting is more important than the survival of the nation should things go south in the future... Idiots.

[Tanknibbz]

I am one of the unfortunate people to live in New Zealand.
Things have gone completely downhill since March. As stated in the article the law authorizing this was passed 119-1. The Government took it upon themselves to act ASAP. As a result we got a poorly written Bill put together in a week. That 1 vote is our single Libertarian member saying no... thats not good enough. The submissions process involved a pre-selected group of people and people like myself were given a few days to make written submissions which were ignored.
We now have Armed cops driving around tasked with "Responding to high risk warrants and firearms incidents" Week 1 of this they pulled over a car to serve a random warrant with the Police Commissioner saying Well we cant just have them sitting around doing nothing.
We will be having changes to our "Hate-speech" legislation next year and the Government is currently working on more firearms law including a register, shorter licensing periods and more stringent requirements.
Kiwis don't really care about any of this. The libertarian MP's party has gone up in polling but hes moved from 1 seat to 2-3. So essentially from 1% to 2%.

[darkflame]

Sorry to hear that man

[vek]

🙁

As much as it saddens me to watch America get screwed up, it ALSO saddens me to see Europe and the Anglosphere having become even more screwed up than we are. I truly feel for you guys! Honestly, I think Aussies and Kiwis are the most similar to Americans on earth culturally (after the Canadians I suppose...). It was the frontier mentality thing that made us so similar I think.

I hope you guys can get your shit together someday... On the other hand, I welcome good people like you to move to the US and perhaps help us stop the ruination of America. We're pretty much the best shot at restoring a free nation on this planet, and if liberty minded people moved here en masse, instead of all the leftists that mostly move here, we would have a better shot at it!

You can still buy an AR here my friend!

[OneSimpleLesson]

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

[KiwiLib]

No homeless people?? Yeah right. There's a metric crap tonne of them in every city.

Cops without guns? Sort of. They all have pistols and AR15's in their squad cars. They're just crap (even by US standards) at handling them. The average NZ cop's firearms training consists of 2 mags from their Glock per year and one from their AR at ranges "as much as" 25 meters away.

Our freedoms are being crushed by the current government as fast as they can get away with it - economic, intellectual and property.

[Zeb]

That's sad. It seemed like NZ was pretty decent on personal liberty.

[KiwiLib]

We were. Now the government is using the UK and Australia as their guidelines - the two worst places in the western world for liberty and freedom.

[Brett Bellmore]

"Is it possible that a different culture than our own can do without assault weapons and still preserve the values of freedom and liberty?"

No, because the desire to do away with that ownership is an indication that the government there no longer means to preserve the values of freedom and liberty.

You disarm the people so they can't fight back later when you institute the rest of the program. It's always a first step.

[Mortis]

NZ hasn't just banned military style firearms, it has banned all centre fire semi automatics, all firearms with more the 10 rounds including lever actions, all shotguns more than 5 rounds. Basically most guns currently in circulation.
Preserve liberty ? The very next legislative action was prohibiting so called hate speech.

[Jerryskids]

Law enforcement betrayed the trust of gun owners who were doing their best to comply with government-mandated confiscation.

Man, the Nigerian princes, the owners of ocean-front property in Nevada, and the bridge-sellers in Brooklyn are salivating at the thoughts of getting their hands on that list. And if you were dumb enough to trust your government enough to surrender your weapons, you deserve to be on the list.

[shortviking]

It worked as intended.

[LeaveTrumpAloneLibertarian]

SAP software

Hey! I use that piece of shit software. I thought only governments built computer software that sucks. Geesch... i’ve Learned something today!

[Fat Mike's Drug Habit]

If you think government's produce crap on their own, you should really see the stuff they get on contract. I'd bet SAP got paid for a "feature enhancement" to fix their own fuckup.

[KiwiLib]

SAP got told to take responsibility for the screw-up in exchange for getting the contract to produce the "very very very secure" online firearms register that the current muppets are so keen on.

[Domer]

Maybe they were the same company who provided the software for the ACA

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Law-abiding gun owners who complied with New Zealand's mandatory gun buyback program and surrendered their assault weapons to the government discovered Monday that their privacy had been compromised by poor website security.

You fucked up...you trusted us!

[Harvard]

How is it that bank account information was compromised? I'd like a peek at that gun confiscation website form. Was "have you stopped beating your wife" part of the required information?

[Tanknibbz]

Bank information for the Feds to reimburse you for the firearm they confiscate.
It will essentially just be account numbers and names.

[Harvard]

You need an address, nothing more, to send me a check.

[Longtobefree]

If the NZ government hadn't sold those guns in the first place, they wouldn't have to buy them back now, right?

[KiwiLib]

Ironically the one thing they did sell to the public - mil surp ammunition - is the one thing they're trying to confiscate without any compensation. Fuckers

[cgr2727]

So for all of you Kiwis who keep their AR-15's (as you should), what's the ammo outlook like? If you're like most of us here in the states, you have buckets of the stuff because either you go through it quickly at the range, or you keep it as a hedge against this kind of situation. Do you see a point in the near future when alarm bells go off anytime someone innocently asks for a box of 5.56x45? Have ammo sales spiked, or are there shortages now?

[Tanknibbz]

Sales have probably dropped but its still around. .223 is still innocent enough, when my friend handed in his and his suppressor he was asked by the cop why he wasn't keeping the suppressor for other rifles.
From the sound of things people are just using their "Buy Back" money to buy a replacement rifle. Just pays to be careful because they can ban any particular model now through Cabinet. People were calling the existence of .22 AR15's a loophole, because even though it matches all our new laws its still scary and black.
Ammo has always been a problem here. .22 and shotguns are all cheap enough to feed but other things can be pricey. I've heard there's quite a problem sourcing 7.62x54 now though.

[KiwiLib]

Price of .223 has droped significantly since March. I've still go a couple of thousand rounds left, more than enough for my .223 Ruger Precision Rifle to last a long long time.

[Brett Bellmore]

Ironically we're much freer here about gun ownership, but aren't permitted suppressors. The anti-gunners take the position that, maybe they can't take your gun away, but they can damned well take your hearing away.

[Enjoy Every Sandwich]

In other words, law enforcement betrayed the trust of gun owners who were doing their best to comply with a government-mandated confiscation program.

Gee, who could have seen that coming?

Of course these guys are just amateurs. Wait until they see how U.S. law enforcement agencies fuck over gun owners. They'll be envious.

[Brian]

Mandatory buybacks where you have to sell your gun to someone you never bought it from are not "buybacks."

They are "confiscations" or "takings".

Let's not concede the language to Orwellian pansies.

[Uncle Jay]

"Mandatory Buyback Program?"

I'm sure Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Castro would approve of such a deal.

[Rich]

the website will remain shut down until police can guarantee that the information is secure.

So, shut down *forever*, right? RIGHT?!

[vek]

Spineless bastards. 119 to 1!

This stuff is so sad. What's even worse is a few countries in Europe that were decent on gun rights, mostly in Eastern Europe, are being forced to screw up their gun laws because they were dumb enough to join the EU.

I really hope the tide starts going the other way on this stuff elsewhere in the world.

[Brett Bellmore]

It won't until civil war sweeps the world. Unfree nations are the vast majority of the world, and the modern degree of interdependence gives them too much leverage with which to pressure the holdouts.

So it's just going to keep getting worse until some country sees a revolution, and then it spills over into the next, and the next.

They hope that before that happens they can get enough control and surveillance to make revolution impossible. And I wish I were certain they're wrong to think they might accomplish that.

[vek]

I mean yeah, kinda.

The thing is the economic gains got dangled in front of a lot of nations faces, and they took the money. That's the only reason all the countries in eastern Europe joined the EU. Now almost all of them regret it in other ways.

But if they all removed themselves, and everybody slowly disentangled a lot of this BS, it wouldn't have to be outright violent revolution. Just a lot of major policy changes.

I don't see an EU lead by Germany invading Poland or Hungary again (despite how common it is historically! LOL) because they withdraw from the EU and allow their citizens to own guns or bring in real free speech laws etc. They would likely be vindictive economically... But that's assuming that sane people haven't swept the elections in Germany/France/Italy etc... If anything the trend seems to be that sane nationalists are slowly gaining power EVERYWHERE, so even that isn't a given.

We'll see how it all plays out...

[Crackers Boy]

Maybe it's time for the U.S. to have an "AR Spring", modeled after the "Arab Spring" from earlier this decade.

CB

[GroundTruth]

So very glad that it could never happen here in the US. /sarc

[Alan@.4]

It would appear that "the authorities" cannot be trusted with sensitive data. Can you imagine that.

[DanMR]

I am glad to see that the brilliant government of New Zealand is protecting its citizens from the law abiding owners of these so-called assault weapons. That should make all of these idiots feel far more safe now. Idiots operate on feelings and apparently the New Zealand government also operates on feelings. Hopefully, the majority of New Zealanders will soon "feel" that this government must be replaced. This government is openly at war with the honest, law abiding citizens of New Zealand and they don't need this kind of ignorant, idiotic government one day longer. Get rid of them and do ASAP. It's unfortunate that the people of New Zealand have less rights than the citizens of the USA but their government has taken their rights away, For Now Only. Soon the tide will turn. Thank God for that.

[vek]

Well yeah, they have a chick as PM... Of course their government is run by feelings.

Despite the fact that there is a minority of sane, rational women out there... The number one cause of the destruction of freedom and nanny statism was giving women the vote. As a group they do not think rationally, ever. It's always emotions, what about the children, it makes sense but it's just so mean, etc. Men can be assholes, but harsh societies are often highly functional societies... Societies run by emotion are guaranteed to collapse sooner or later.

[Longtobefree]

Too true.
Look up how many wars and depressions there have been since women got the vote. When men ran things, wars were fought on battlefields where a few hundred/thousand soldiers got injured, and the issue was settled. Let women vote, and wars drag on forever, battles are fought in cities, soldiers AND civilians are slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands, and the economies fall apart.

[OneSimpleLesson]

That's totally nonspurious. I'm sure there's no other technological or social developments that coincided with women suffrage.

[vek]

I wouldn't try to pin anything war related on women one way or another...

But female psychology is directly related to the welfare state, frivolous lawsuits about everything, the endless bitch fest about every perceived slight, the destruction of the family because of fucked divorce laws, and 1,000 other things.

I'm not a MGTOW, but reading their articles and watching their videos is VERY enlightening. Most of those guys just bust out mainstream studies that have been done on a ton of subjects, and then take the traits to their obvious conclusion, but without holding back because it's "sexist" to imply women aren't IDENTICAL to men.

In our species, women are meant biologically to make babies and play a secondary role in "work" activities. Women are literally incapable of sustaining a modern nation on their own, because the average traits of women are insufficient to have enough engineers, doctors, etc and their style of doing things (emotion/perceived fairness based) simply don't function well IRL.

IMO, if we ever want to have a free nation again, AND KEEP IT, there are 2 ways: We could simply take away womens right to vote, and even with dumb men we would swing waaay back towards a libertarian/conservative world. OR we could institute a series of tests on civics, history, etc that would weed out the majority of both men and women from being able to vote, leaving only the cream of the crop of both sexes. Either way works for me! But universal suffrage is the death of true freedom 100% of the time.

[DanMR]

One more short comment. I feel terrible for the people of New Zealand who are subjected to a government that openly is pulling what theirs is by violating the God given rights of the people to keep and bear arms. This government should be kicked out as soon as possible and replaced with honorable people who recognize the inalienable rights of the people of New Zealand. The current government absolutely does not!