Fourth Amendment

U.S. Citizens Sue Border Patrol Agent Who Detained Them for Speaking Spanish

The ACLU argues that the 40-minute detention violated the Fourth and 14th amendments.

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ACLU

"So it is illegal to speak Spanish in Montana?" Ana Suda asked Border Patrol Agent Paul O'Neal after he detained her and her friend Mimi Hernandez at a convenience store in Havre, a small town near the border with Canada, on a Wednesday evening last May. "Well, ma'am," O'Neal replied, "it's not illegal. It's just very unheard of up here." And that, to his mind, provided reasonable suspicion that the two women, both U.S. citizens and Havre residents, were in the country illegally, justifying a 40-minute detention while he investigated their immigration status.

O'Neal was wrong about that, according to a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union yesterday. "There was no legitimate reason for Agent O'Neal and other CBP [Customs and Border Protection] agents to detain Ms. Suda and Ms. Hernandez," the complaint says. "Speaking Spanish does not establish reasonable suspicion justifying a stop and detention, much less probable cause for an arrest." The ACLU is asking for compensatory and punitive damages as well as an injunction barring CBP from "stopping and/or detaining individuals on the basis of race, accent, and/or speaking Spanish, except where the seizure is based on a specific and reliable suspect description matching such characteristics."

ACLU

Suda and Hernandez, certified nurse assistants who work at the Northern Montana Care Center, were not suspects until O'Neal, who is assigned to CBP's Havre office, heard them speaking Spanish at the Town Pump convenience store, where they had stopped to pick up eggs and milk after exercising together at a local gym. When Hernandez greeted him in English, O'Neal, who was wearing his uniform and carrying a gun, commented on her accent and asked her and Suda where they were born. "Are you serious?" Suda said, according to her account. "Dead serious," O'Neal replied. So they answered him: El Paso, Texas, Suda said. El Centro, California, Hernandez said. O'Neal asked for identification, and the women handed over their Montana driver's licenses.

Although Montana requires applicants for driver's licenses to provide "proof of authorized presence," such as a birth certificate or a passport, O'Neal was not satisfied. He kept Suda and Hernandez detained in the store's parking lot for another half an hour or so while he checked on outstanding warrants, called a supervisor, and waited for him to arrive.

In a cellphone video that Suda and Hernandez shot outside the store, one of them asks O'Neal, "Can you tell us in the video, please, why you ask us for our IDs?" His reply does not leave him much legal wiggle room: "Ma'am, the reason I asked you for your ID is because I came up in here and saw that you guys are speaking Spanish, which is very unheard of up here….It has to do with you guys speaking Spanish in the store in a state where it's predominantly English-speaking."

According to the complaint, Suda asked O'Neal's supervisor whether she and Hernandez would have been detained if they had been speaking French. "No, we don't do that," the supervisor replied. The ACLU argues that O'Neal used the women's language and accents as proxies for race, thereby violating the 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection as well as the Fourth Amendment's ban on unreasonable seizures.

In 2006 the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit, which includes Montana, ruled that Border Patrol agents in Havre violated the Fourth Amendment when they detained six Latino men at a high school football game based on their "appearance as a work crew," their proximity to the border, and their inability to speak English. While those factors were relevant in establishing reasonable suspicion, the appeals court said, they did not suffice to meet that threshold. It pretty clearly follows that speaking Spanish as well as English, as Suda and Hernandez do, cannot establish reasonable suspicion.

Suda says the incident and the publicity surrounding it have made life in Havre uncomfortable. "After the video of the stop was picked up by the news," she writes on the ACLU's blog, "Mimi and my families have been harassed repeatedly for speaking out. We received hateful messages from people across the country, but the worst was what happened in our own town, a place I considered home. At his high school, a teacher asked Mimi's son whether he had brought his ID to class. My 8-year-old daughter is scared to speak Spanish and has started responding to me in English when I ask her questions….I've had people yell at me in restaurants and bars, saying that I am 'an illegal.'"

Suda concedes that she could have avoided this backlash if she had kept quiet about the encounter with O'Neal. "Maybe life would have gone back to normal," she says, "but then I think about my kids. I want them to not only be proud of being bilingual, but I also want them to know that they live in a country where people can't just be stopped and interrogated based on how they look and sound."

NEXT: Trump Wants To Raid an Asset Forfeiture Black-Box Fund To Build His Border Wall

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  1. Thank heavens we have the Border Patrol to keep us safe from Spanish-speaking nurses in Montana.

    1. They detained for 40 minutes. It was a regular Auszwitz.

      Do you think the border patrol should be able to detain anyone? If so, then isn’t them detaining the wrong person occasionally inevitable?

      If not, then isn’t it fair to say that you think no one should ever be deported for any reason? Good for you but it puts lie to any claim you make to supporting anything short of complete open borders.

      1. Aren’t you supposed to be a lawyer?

      2. Detain anyone? No.

        Detain someone with probable cause? Sure.

        1. John makes good points most of the time I will concede but yeah, he loses royally on this one!

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      3. I think the authorities should have more probable cause than just “speaking Spanish in Montana” before detaining someone. Don’t you?

        1. You don’t need probable cause to question someone dipshit.

          1. John’s reading comprehension shows again. Chemjeff said “detain”, John reads “question”.

            No principles, one principal, no consistency (except at beging inconsistent), can’t read.

          2. Correct but they do need reasonable articulable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime. Speaking Spanish is not a crime.

            1. They do legally have magical powers near the border, as per statutes.

              Also, the case of the 6 people who DIDN’T even speak English… I didn’t read more on that, but I bet those fuckers were all illegals. You can’t get any kind of legal status here really, other than refugee maybe, without speaking English.

              So that IS a pretty reasonable suspicion if they don’t claim they’re tourists or something.

              These broads spoke English though, which is NOT uncommon for 2nd generation anchor babies of illegal immigrants, who are, unfortunately citizens because of our bad interpretation of birthright citizenship we currently use.

              1. Actually vek, removed from the actual border or its functional equivalent, agents need reasonable suspicion to detain and consent or probable cause to search. Since this detention took place in Havre at a convenience store, it’s clear they weren’t at the border or its functional equivalent. Further, since the agent had nothing more to go on then two people speaking Spanish, the agent didn’t have reasonable suspicion either. As such, his detention was illegal and the women had no legal obligation to give him the time of day, let alone their driver’s license. I look forward to the ACLU making this clear in their litigation regarding the incident.

                BTW, if you need a primer regarding those “magical powers” you claim Border Patrol agents have. Feel free to check out:

                https://tinyurl.com/y6e9zj7o

      4. ” If so, then isn’t them detaining the wrong person occasionally inevitable?”

        Why must others suffer for the sake of your principles, John?

        1. I don’t expect perfection from government agencies. I can’t see why anyone else would.

          1. I expect imperfections, which is why I support strict limits on government power.

        2. Because John has no principles?

          1. I have more pinciples than you have brains, though that is an extremely low bar.

            1. You have one principal, Trump, and nothing else.

              1. Poor alphabet intern troll.

          2. Alphabet faggtot shouldn’t pull too hard on that thread. Plus John is a far more principled person than any progtard could possibly imagine.

        3. Come on Jeff, they’re not REAL people… They’re just Mexicans or whatever, don’t get so pissy about it! 🙂

      5. On family vacation in SD, I got off the interstate to get breakfast. The IHOP was 5 mi. up the road and I’d been driving for something north of 10 hrs. at that point. The sun was coming up and I had my ball cap and sunglasses on. Coming over the hill, I see a police officer sitting in the median. I’m doing a rational 50 mph, but I didn’t recall seeing the posted signs. Right as I get to the point of making eye contact with the officer, I looked down at my GPS/phone which lists the posted speed limit. I was 5 mph over but I *knew* as soon as I looked down, I had screwed myself. It looked *exactly* like I was trying to conceal my face. So, being out of state, I didn’t have plates on the front, which is required in SD. Also, IL a couple years ago, used cheaper steel for the plates and had to issue a bunch of emergency replacements, well mine was pretty crusty and the state hadn’t issued me a new one. So, after 40 min. of back and forth, with the kids waking up in the back, the officer was convinced I was just a Dad taking his kids on a road trip to see Rushmore and not a felon who’d defaced his plates and covered his face to avoid the long arm of the law.

        If I’d been Mexicanish and/or the officer was an ICE or CBP agent it may’ve been a civil rights violation, but all of us were white so it was OK.

        1. No, it was still a civil rights violation, and you’re too much of an idiot to care that you were wronged.

          1. Do you feel dumb yet?

          2. Do you have the name of a lawyer that’s willing to take on the case of making me 40 min. late to breakfast on vacation pro bono? I’m sure we can sue our way out of such a gross injustice. At the very least, if I care long enough and hard enough *something* good will come out of it, right? Or at least not something equally reprehensible?

            1. Since the redress would entail a bill to the taxpayers, even the legally available remedy is lacking.

            2. Big damages there.

        2. I had a similar experience coming in to Superior, WI a couple of summers back. We spent the day tubing down the Brule river, and I was beat. I had a mini-van full of exhausted extended family members and just wanted to get some food and rest.

          The highway into Superior drops abruptly from 65/70mph to 35mph over about a quarter mile (brief 45mph in the middle). So I hit the 45mph doing probably 50 as I coasted down from highway speeds. Sure enough, there was the po-po.

          He grilled me for about 5 minutes and then checked my license. It was clear that he saw van from Florida and thought he’d hit the jackpot. He was testing various angles to see if he could justify a search of the vehicle for drugs. He finally gave up in frustration at just having discovered a tired dad with a van full of sunburn.

          Total cost – 15 minutes. And my kids learned a bit about dealing with the state.

        3. If your state doesnt require two license plates for a vehicles, then a state that does for their residents cannot force you to have two license plates.

          Same with window tint and all the other shit under the privileges and immunities clause.

        4. THIS.

          I mean it’s not like it’s cool to get harassed a bit like this… But when there are mildly weird things like your silly story, I mean it’s not SUPER unreasonable. It’s annoying… But these things don’t happen 48 times a week or anything either. I’ve had a couple even less severe dumb interactions with cops over the last 15 or so years since I was an adult, and I’m sure I’ll have a few more.

          Provided things don’t spiral out of control into nut tasing, it’s really not the end of the world. I’m always polite, and more or less compliant, but also assertive on the things that matter. I’ve not really had unpleasant interactions with the pigs since I brought it on myself doing stupid shit in high school.

      6. I don’t know about you, but any length of detainment without probable cause or a warrant is too much for me. I’d be livid if I lost 40 minutes of my life to someone else’s xenophobia. I’d be livid if I lost 4 minutes of my life to someone else’s xenophobia.

        1. I’d be livid if I lost 4 minutes of my life to someone else’s xenophobia.

          So, you won’t be replying any further trying to dispel others’ perceived xenophobia or will you just be really livid while replying?

        2. Speaking spanish can be probable cause.

          We speak American English in the USA.

          1. Or, asked in the opposite direction, what would constitute probable cause?

            If you are looking for illegal aliens in a nation where the vast bulk of illegal aliens are Hispanic, exactly what would constitute probable cause.

            With maybe 1 in 10 Hispanic people in the US being illegal aliens (call it 100 million hispanics, 10 million illegals just to get round numbers), what is your criteria?

            Is the ACLU position actually reasonable – that no characteristics that track with ethnicity are acceptable for use in determining level of suspicion for a crime that tracks very closely with that particular ethnicity?

            The “What if they were speaking French?” question is a canard. There are almost zero illegal immigrants from France. Vs. 5 million current illegal workers from Mexico alone. Speaking Tovaluan similarly wouldn’t be a rational red flag, even with near as makes no difference zero US citizens speaking the language. But with the overwhelming majority of all illegals speaking Spanish, and a not insignificant percentage of native Spanish speakers in the US being illegal immigrants, how is that not a decent proxy for probable cause? If not, what possible proxy is there?

            This is not so simple as “cop == bad”.

            1. This was near the Canadian border. There are French-speaking Canadians, who are often part Native American. When I was young, there were French-Canadian communities in the USA, some citizens and some not, and they tended to be uneducated and unskilled.

              1. French-Canadian-Americans is a thing in New England and the Midwest. If you stretch the definition, it is in Louisiana, too. Quite a few Jacques and Maries moved down to the states to work in mills. and in cutting timber. There are some frostbacks in the states, even today!

            2. It’s actually far worse than that.

              There are around 50 million Hispanics. If you go with the low end estimate of 10 million illegals, vs the highest estimates up to 20 million, that’s more like 20% of them being illegal.

              As I stated elsewhere, there is an almost 100% chance these peoples parents were illegal aliens when they were anchor babied in here. The US population was 2% Hispanic in the 60s, it’s not around 16%… Almost all of that came from illegal immigrants.

              The truth is, racial profiling SHOULD be legal. Because it is NOT unreasonable in a lot of circumstances. Looking for terrorists? They’re almost all Muslims, mostly of the middle eastern variety vs saaay Asian Muslims. Illegals? Mostly Hispanic.

              What people don’t like is that somehow all the shit heels in the world end up being non whites in recent years, so all of a sudden using common sense is evil… But if the IRA became a thing again, would it not be reasonable to be extra suspicious of Irishmen? Of course it would. And progs would probably be totes cool with that. But NEVER if the shit heel is not white.

              It’s BS really.

              1. Very true. Same thing with Muslims and terrorism. Idiots go through bizarre mental gymnastics to ignore simple logic.

              2. What’s BS vek is listening to people like you spout off on how the gov’t should be empowered to detain individuals based solely upon their physical characteristics or the language they are speaking at a specific instance in time instead of their actions or a combination of their actions and the physical characteristics of specific individuals who were observed committing a crime.

                Why not just make it easy and empower gov’t to be able to detain anyone who breathes air since 100% of if people who commit any sort of crime breathed the stuff at some point while they were committing their crimes.

                1. I’m not saying that they should just stop and frisk a Muslim every time they see one… But if you’re in an area where we have security due to it being a likely target of terrorism, IT IS LOGICAL AND REASONABLE to give Muslims extra scrutiny. It is THE ONLY logical thing to do actually.

                  Muslims commit about 90% of global terrorism in this era according to the UN IIRC. And it’s mostly middle eastern ones, not even Asian Muslims. Those numbers would have looked a lot different in say the 1970/80s, when the IRA was still going. I would have thought it reasonable to give extra scrutiny to the Irish back then in the UK too, because it makes logical sense.

                  There need to be limits, but not being able to use common sense in these matters is ridiculous. I’m part Mexican myself, and tan like fuck. I don’t even speak Spanish, but since most illegals are Hispanic, I wouldn’t have found it unreasonable to get an extra few questions shot my way at the border. It would be annoying, but it makes logical sense.

                  You can’t throw out using THE BEST criteria possible for fighting certain crimes just because it might disproportionately impact some group that is prone to whining like bitches about it. If Chinese become our biggest illegal immigrants, we should profile their asses too. People claiming to be citizens who don’t speak English SHOULD be reasonable suspicion. If they say they’re tourists, that doesn’t apply, but if they claim citizenship or whatever that argument doesn’t hold water.

                  1. Agents can pretty much ask whatever they want at the border or its functional equivalent vek. This story isn’t about a detention at the border or its functional equivalent however. It’s about two women stopped, seized, detained & interrogated by a Border Patrol agent away from the border he was supposed to be patrolling. We’re talking about a detention that lacked reasonable suspicion at a convenience store in a domestic town removed from the border.

                    If you want to talk about common sense vek then maybe you should tell the Border Patrol that the best place to find people illegally crossing the border is well…at the actual border, not in a convenience store located in a town with a population of 10,000 where individuals have a right to talk to their friends using whatever language they want to.

        3. In Japan, the immigration cops will stop you and ask you questions if you are no speaking japanese and dont look japanese.

          1. Can you blame them? Everyone wants to move to Japan due to the reputation of Japanese people for absolutely loving foreigners.

            And, besides that, Japan’s population is growing so fast that they’re simply running out of room. There so overwhelmed with kids, they’re starting to get Japanese youngsters to dress up as robots to work in hospitals and nursing homes caring for the smaller and smaller population of elderly folks.

            /sarc

            1. You’re an idiot. Japan is doing fine.

              People talk about declining populations like it’s a BAD thing for the native population… NEWS FLASH it’s actually kind of awesome.

              Do you know how affordable a beach front home in Malibu would be if the US only had around 200 million people? Affordable enough that a school teacher could buy one… I know, because my dad dated a chick whose father did just that, back when there were only around 200 million people in the USA.

              Japan has maintained their culture. They’re actually still Japanese. American culture is almost completely and utterly destroyed now, probably never to return. Certainly not if we keep allowing in floods of illiterate 3rd worlders.

              Japan took the right path… And given another couple decades of this shit, if it isn’t stopped, and even all you nit wits who think open borders are great will be looking back at what was thrown away by your own stupidity and thinking “Shit, those people were right… We DON’T have magic dirt!”

              1. Really. And who the mfuck wants to trade 20th century American culture for Maxicam culture?

                Can even the. Ost progtarded Moro’s be that stupid?

          2. So? This isn’t Japan, a fact I would have thought you were aware of.

            1. This aint Mexico.

              Speak English or expect someone to raise an eyebrow.

              Since some people are conspiring to violate immigration law aid and abet criminal illegals, speaking spanish might get you investigated.

              Btw, a real American would tell ICE to fuck themselves and whip out a copy of the Constitution.

            2. If only we were Japan!

              America would probably be close to heaven if instead of opening up immigration to 3rd world savages in 1965 we had clamped down even harder.

              A rising population ACTUALLY isn’t really a good thing for natives in a country for the most part. There are fewer resources per capita to go around. One of the reasons that America is so wealthy is because we had so many resources per our population compared to other industrialized countries… As we’ve got closer to the population densities of these other nations, we lose that advantage.

              We also lose out on little things, like it being easier to purchase land/housing in awesome areas. My grandpa bought a gorgeous house in the bay area on a teachers salary… Largely because there were half as many people in the area, and prices weren’t pushed through the roof.

              There are many reasons being crammed in like sardines a-la India or China sucks.

              1. As I always say, this country would be a paradise if all the progressives were gone.

        4. So you’d be livid if you lost 40 minutes. On average people work over 30% of their time to pay taxes.

          The way I see it, is Trump is pressing the issue regarding citizen safety and immigration, because neither party in Congress wants to change the law, or enforce the existing law. The Border Patrol harasses US citizens and residents, and lets illegals who don’t show up in court and who break other laws the freedom to run around the country consuming government services. I learned long ago, if you don’t like the existing law, change it. But Congress refuses to touch it while at the same time all the politicians call for reforming it.

      7. Do you think the border patrol should be able to detain anyone? If so, then isn’t them detaining the wrong person occasionally inevitable?

        So you actually support ‘stop and frisk’? Seriously? I thought you were supposed to be a ‘principled conservative’? You seem to just support a police state.

        1. John is a Trumpista, and they have only one principal.

          1. I remember when you used to make actual arguments instead of just calling everyone a trump is trumpista.

            1. We dont call it the alphabet trolll for nothing.

              1. Alphadouche?

        2. To me, the deciding factor here is that they both spoke English. The other case they quoted where they didn’t even speak English I think is legit. If you’re not “No speaky English. I visit on vacation.” or some other excuse that is similar, no legal resident doesn’t speak English.

      8. “Do you think the border patrol should be able to detain anyone?” When they are not at an actual border checkpoint, no they should not.

        “If so, then isn’t them detaining the wrong person occasionally inevitable?” Yes, it is inevitable – and they should pay the consequences for being wrong. Those consequences should be both institutional and personal. Will that make law enforcement more cautious about doing their jobs? Yes – that’s a feature, not a bug.

        “If not, then isn’t it fair to say that you think no one should ever be deported for any reason?” No. Actual evidence of a crime is a perfectly reasonable grounds for deportation. Speaking spanish in a parking lot is not grounds for a stop, much less evidence of a crime.

        1. In Texas there are at least two sets of “actual” border checkpoints. Anyone leaving The Valley area is funneled into a second gauntlet of dawgs and dumb-asses with guns 50 miles north of the Rio Grande. This adds up to an area of 62,700 square miles in which jackbooted minions can break car windows, seize valuables and frogmarch anyone into interrogation with handcuffs for no reason. That area is a quarter of the entire state. Open borders is a gate at which you can show your vaccination card and hopefully no suicide vest to customs, but it’s a line. What currently exists is a vast no-man’s land minefield in which power elbows aside rights.

          1. And the actual zone is 100 miles from a “border or point of entry”, which includes areas around international airports. So you get all of the coastal cities and most of the state around a city that has an international airport. In the end, it is most of the US population living in or near enough to regularly pass into a border zone.

            They are not using all of that area yet.

            Yet.

            1. Meh.

              I think the Romans kind of had it right. They had the official title of Dictator. It was only meant for when shit was going down, they had basically total power. Then had to relinquish it after a time.

              I view laws like the above in the same way. IF you have a problem, bust out. Then go back to normal. Sometimes you have to. If we busted out on all the illegals, and then were able to tone it back, I’d be OKAY with it.

              You don’t have to worry about problems when they’re NOT happening. We’ve never really had a similar issue since we were a settled country. Now we do. That means we need to change tactics. As a temporary thing for a few years, I wouldn’t mind ICE going around to construction sites or whatever scaring the shit out of illegals. After a small amount of this most of them would probably bail, and problem solved.

              1. Of course you do vek. Weak-minded individuals always seem to need strong men to make them feel special and safe.

                You’d think someone who claims German heritage in his past would have a better grasp of the dangers associated with empowering dictators within a country along with the difficultly associated with having them relinquish power after they’ve seized it.

                1. Well, you’re essentially arguing against the very concept of emergency powers, or martial law. We have both.

                  Because SHIT CAN GO DOWN. I didn’t say we need a dictator, I just said I view laws along these lines, which have definitions and restrictions, as along the same lines as the Roman title of Dictator. Romans also had restrictions. Every Dictator they ever had, which was numerous, stepped down as per their laws as far as I know, until Caesar. Sulla did so just a few decades before Caesar, after saving the Republic from chaos.

                  The founders accepted, correctly, that sometimes a bunch of idiots sitting in a room arguing about every point doesn’t work in a crisis. We almost lost the Revolutionary War because congress was so dysfunctional at times.

                  Emergency powers of some sort need to exist, the devil is in the details. I don’t think a limited thing like cracking down on immigration in and of itself will be the end of the universe.

      9. John,
        Take CBP’s cock out of your ass.

        1. Poor trolls. They hate the constitution and the USA’s rule of law.

      10. Wow, your argument is almost identical to what “Cathy L” had to say about the no-knock raid in Houston. Is it part of a talking points package assembled by someone who wants bad cops defended at every possible opportunity?

        1. (see https://reason.com/blog/2019/02…..d-to-a-dea if anyone wants to check it out for themselves)

      11. No…They shouldn’t be able to detain anyone without reasonable cause.

    2. If he’d returned their IDs, then taken her glasses off and stepped on them, and done nothing else, I’d consider it money well spent.

      1. Maybe she moonlights as an AOC look-alike stripper.

    3. Do you really want to risk illegals disrupting our supply of dental floss??

    4. Poor chemjeff does know what probable cause is.

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  2. We don’t cotton to your type round here

  3. Leaving aside the specific question of whether it is good policy to detain someone for merely speaking Spanish. The officer was using speaking Spanish as a proxy for national origin. While there is some overlap between race and national origin, language is a cultural marker, not a racial marker and should not construed as such. The ACLU argument is stretching the definition of race to the breaking point.

    1. Of course it is. But who said the ACLU was in any way an honest organization?

      1. It’s always nice to see camaraderie in petty racial grievance butthurt.

        1. I know, Tony, words should mean what progressives need them to mean in the moment so they can win today. Nothing bad will come out of that mode of thinking.

          1. The fact that the US census treats Hispanic as an ethnicity instead of a race has caused some complaints that this is confusing to Hispanics and thus we are miscounting people.

            In fact the census may change it into a combined (race or ethnicity) question, and studies show that when phrased this way, Hispanics fall much more in line than when it’s segregated out.

            1. Hispanic is not a race. It is not even an ethnicity. It is a lazy, bureaucratic, catchall category for all the nationalities that speak Spanish as a first language. The reason why it is confusing is that it is almost always used as an equivalent to racial terms despite that being an improper usage.

              1. We lump in Ghanian immigrants with black people who’ve lived in New Orleans for 10 generations, so it’s all rather nonspecific.

                1. Or sons of Kenyan nationals who were raised in their white grandparents household.

                  1. Or sons of Kenyan nationals who were raised in their white grandparents household.

                    Also known as the express lane to the presidency.

                    1. The typical black American backstory.

                    2. Nobody asks for a person’s backstory before they’re racist against him.

                    3. Tony knows all about being racists toward others.

                      His Party is the Party of slavery after all.

              2. It gets sillier than that. People from Brazil are considered Hispanic despite the fact that they don’t even speak Spanish. This is how you get “Whites” born and raised in South Africa, “African Americans” from Australia who haven’t had an African ancestor in the last 60,000(!) years, and the men from Bangkok and Baghdad are the same kind of “Asian”.

                The entire concept of “race” is an ignorant mess of assumptions, generalizations, and bad history best left behind. It’s dated and useless, but very good for putting people into neat and tidy boxes where you don’t have to think about nuance anymore so of course the government should obsess with it.

                1. Heaven forbid we try and organize people into groups to make sense of who is non-American.

            2. While you are correct n00bdragon, that doesn’t mean it’s useless.

              The truth is very important things come out of this information. Stuff that is actually relevant.

              Like the fact that black Americans are 12% of the population, but commit 50% of the murders. Or that our educational scores HAVE NOT actually got worse in the USA over the last couple decades once you account for the demographics… White and Asian Americans do just as well as they ever have, as do blacks, Hispanics, etc… It’s just that we now the groups that do poorly in school make up a far higher percentage of the population.

              Like it or not, these things DO matter. Blank slaters are outright WRONG about a lot of stuff. Which is why we should continue to keep track. If anything your observations simply mean we should have more checkboxes to get more accurate information.

              ALSO, FYI, guys from Baghdad are considered White, not Asian, in the USA. They have intermittently asked for a Middle Eastern/North African check box, but then stopped asking because of 911 etc. But I think they’re asking for it again. I say give it to ’em. I wouldn’t mind knowing how many potential jihadists we have in the US 🙂

    2. Who cares about semantics? Two American citizens were detained for talking to each other while buying eggs. There’s really no problem with that?

      1. That is why I wrote “leaving aside”. My beef is with the way the ACLU is making their case.

        The lawyer’s trade is parsing semantics, and deliberately confusing definitions in a legal precedent can lead to awful unintended consequences in cases far beyond this one.

        1. Fair enough. Their skin color may have been (probably was?) a factor, but not sure you need it to make a case. Perhaps the ACLU sees it as additive.

          Two citizens were detained (for a short period) for no reason. That ought to be enough.

          1. You dont like the reason but there was a reason of potential crime.

            Thats what probable cause is.

  4. And thank heavens we have John here to run interference for bigoted cops. Those boots aren’t going to lick themselves!

    1. Thank heavens we have chemjeff running intereference for people who hate the USA and the constitution.

      Poor chemjeff doesnt know what probable cause is.

    2. Maybe these Beaners should have been speaking English, since they’re fucking in America!

      My grandpa was part beaner… I don’t think he knew a word of Spanish. Which is AS IT SHOULD BE. I refused to learn it on principle growing up in California, as I was pissed about all the illegals expecting that Americans should learn their stupid language instead of the other way around. My full blooded Mexican best friend felt the same way, because he’s an actual fucking American.

  5. I am about as open-borders, pro-immigration person you can find. I myself am a second generation immigrant. BUT (not like I make the rules or anything) assimilation into our culture is a requisite for me. You love the Spanish language so much, move to where that is the national language. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being bilingual. Commendable, I would even say. But learning the culture and language of where you live shows an amount of respect and wanting to belong. When I was in the Navy, every single country I visited, I tried to speak their native tongue. I often butchered it and embarrassed myself, but the locals always admired that I tried. That is all I ask. Try to assimilate yourself. I hope this case gets tossed the second it gets into the courtroom.

    1. assimilation into our culture is a requisite for me. You love the Spanish language so much, move to where that is the national language.

      1. Our cultures is a amalgamation of tons of other cultures – are you saying we shouldn’t ever assimilate the best practices of other cultures?

      2. This is America – there is no ‘national language’. What next – we should have a government agency deciding what is and is not ‘proper’ English ala the French?

      We are a free country. They want to speak Spanish – let them. They want to speak Pig-Latin – let them. Its called tolerance. They’re speaking to each other – you’re not part of the conversation, you don’t have a right to listen in, and, really, it only seems its the Spanish part that’s bothering you. Oh, and they can speak English and are perfectly willing to do so when engaged by speakers who they don’t know whether they speak Spanish or not.

      1. 1. Sure, sometimes. But only the things WE find desirable. We should NOT have things thrust on us we don’t like, which is what many lefties seem to be wanting to do lately.

        2. BULLSHIT. We never passed a national language law because English was always dominant enough that we didn’t need to. It was probably a mistake, just on principle. But anybody who argues we don’t have a de facto national language is full of shit. We do. It is English. My German ancestors learned English first generation right away. LIKE THEY SHOULD HAVE.

        What a lot of people fail to realize is the “Let everybody do their thing!” thing DOES NOT WORK. You cannot have multiple languages, cultures, etc in a single nation without it being a pain in the ass, and problematic. It ALWAYS flairs back up into an issue, even if it seems okay for awhile.

        French Canadians VOTED to leave Canada in the 90s. THE 90s! The only reason the initiative lost was because of British Canadians in Quebec and outright foreigners who were able to vote. A strong majority of the people that were supposed to be represented by the vote wanted to break the country up. And it’s CANADA.

        You think all the disparate cultures we have here aren’t going to be 10x worse? Assimilation is the only way it MIGHT work. And I still don’t think it will work personally. But that’s the only way it even has a chance.

    2. When I was in the Navy, every single country I visited, I tried to speak their native tongue.

      Even in an extended conversation with your fellow English speakers?

      If the USA is going to be the land of the free, then you’re allowed to speak whatever language you want. If whole sections of a town are speaking some other language, then who are you to force them to speak English with each other?

    3. Do you have any reason to believe that these two people have failed to assimilate? These two folks who made the effort to get the mandatory education and state-specific certifications for a career in Medicine, who at least in the photo above are wearing western clothes, purchasing US products, have US drivers licenses and generally behaving like any other citizens, who according to the article speak English quite well – and did so to the border patrol agent.

      Or are you saying that speaking a different language is automatic evidence of non-assimilation? Do you live up the the same standard? While you were in the Navy but on native soil, did you speak the native tongue all the time and to all speakers, including your own shipmates?

      1. 5 bucks says they still want to increase the size of government, limit free speech, and take our guns away.

        I don’t give a fuck if they like Lady Gaga or whatever. That isn’t the important shit. Neither is them knowing the language of their ancestors, as long as they ALSO know English. Hell, I learned a little German, and wish mine was better. Thus far NONE of the new immigrant groups believe AT ALL in the ideals of America. THIS is what worries me.

        Personally, I think we can absorb the number of Hispanics we have here now… IF we don’t keep getting flooded with more. The higher the foreign born population is, the less pressure there is to fully assimilate. Imagine a single Mexican in a town that is 100% white or whatever… They will be forced to 100% assimilate immediately. If the Mexican population is 5%, pretty much same deal. If it’s 60% Hispanic, not so much. There are cities all over the US now that are that or higher Hispanic. That is NOT helping things.

        I’m part Mexican. My family assimilated in perfectly. My grandpa was just a straight up white guy cowboy who logged trees for a living, worse western shirts, shot guns, drove pickup trucks, and listened to country music, who also happened to have an excessive tan. But the flood thing, and encouraging people to not assimilate are a problem. Because ending up like my gramps is avoidable now, you can continue to “act” all Hispanic instead of becoming American.

        It won’t end well if we keep up with this shit.

    4. “I am about as open-borders, pro-immigration person you can find.”

      No you’re not.

      1. I’m about the least open-borders, pro-immigration guy you could find!

        I mean I’m fine with just kicking out the illegals, ALL of them, and going to strictly merit based.

        BUT I would also be fine with having next to zero net new immigration, excepting perhaps Einstein level awesome guys or whatever. I would also be okay with revoking fake birthright citizenship from people who were anchor babies but didn’t have at least one citizen parent.

        If we REALLY wanna push things, we could always boot out everybody who moved here post 1965? I guess we could make an exception for anybody that makes over $100K a year or something. America would be America again almost overnight!

        None of the later things are MUST HAVES for me… But they don’t bother me too much 🙂

    5. Fuck off, slaver. You don’t get to choose how anyone speaks to anyone else, especially when they’re not talking to YOU.

      -jcr

    6. Assimilation? According to the article, they were both born in the US, and both were fluent in English. Sounds pretty assimilated to me. I might have a bit of a problem with immigrants who make no effort to learn English, but I find it ridiculous to suggest they should use it exclusively.

  6. So if you see 2 cops talking in piglatin, can you have them deported?

    1. Ha ha. Cops. Pig Latin. I get it.

      1. You laugh! Pig Latin was invented by paranoid American speakeasy customers so as to have an inscrutable “foreign” language of their own. Ginger Rogers even sings in Pig Latin in “Golddiggers of 1933”

        1. Ixna on the igpa atinla.

  7. I also want them to know that they live in a country where people can’t just be stopped and interrogated based on how they look and sound.

    But they do. Why do you want to teach your kids a lie?

    1. The whole high-minded ‘for the children’ spiel came off as exceedingly naive parent and/or disingenuous to me. If the case is still going in 8 yrs. you’re doing the kid more fiscal harm than any sort of cultural good and if you win a judgement in a week and have to trot out the court case again when the kid is 16 and they’ll (potentially rightly) be more embarrassed than proud.

      1. The kid is learning the correct lesson: Only speak in English!

        My grandma didn’t want to learn German when she was a kid, because this is America! Also, the 2 world wars… Her last name didn’t help either, as it was affiliated with a certain Imperial ruling family in Germany…

    2. Sullum is not above presenting a “for the children” plea unironically if he likes the cause.

  8. The best part is how he admits he wouldn’t stop them if they were speaking French. Which is also not commonly spoken in Montana. In fact I’d be willing to wager its *less common* than Spanish.

    So basically, they don’t even care to hide that they’re enforcing the law according to whim and not fairly and equally.

    1. Those damn Quebecois!

    2. Your argument is silly.

      The reason Spanish would be considered a possible indicator of illegal immigration status is that the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants are Spanish-speaking.

      There are very few immigrants of any sort from French-speaking lands. Almost zero illegal immigrants.

      So if you heard French, the logical conclusion would be “probably tourists”, not “probably illegal immigrants”.

      This is a really weak straw-man argument.

      With 10 million plus Spanish-speaking illegal immigrants in the country and probably no more than hundreds of French speaking illegal immigrants (most of whom are probably going to be Cannucks overstaying their visa), it would be irrational to claim that French and Spanish should be equally indicative of immigration status. Particularly in Minnesota, where French Canadians are probably more frequent tourist visitors than Mexican nationals.

      Of course, at the same time there are 10x as many people of Hispanic heritage here legally – so there’s plenty more angles to complicate matters.

      1. Well, this is the bullshit argument the commies came up with.

        We KNOW it’s common sense to believe XYZ, but based on some nonsense principles we’re going to spin an obvious, logical conclusion into something evil, because feelz.

        It’s also reasonable to be more suspicious of Saudi Arabian men in their 20s getting on planes than 85 year old white women… Or black women for that matter. But it’s somehow not allowed to use logic or reason when doing anything anymore, because it might disproportionately impact the group that is disproportionately guilty of certain crimes!

        The biggest problem in the western world today is simply this: We try to be excessively nice too often. We need to stop pussyfooting around with things so much, and just get shit handled. Getting shit done isn’t always nice, but some stuff just needs to be taken care of.

        1. True. We make it easy to be an illegal. If we made it miserable to be an illegal, we would have far less of them.

    3. Americans born in the USA by and far do not speak spanish.

      Most whites and blacks dont speak a language besides American English.

      If your speaking spanish to someone else in America, that is odd. Not criminal but not normal either in most of the USA.

      1. And the parts where it IS normal, it SHOULDN’T be.

  9. Does this Richard Cranium detain every person he encounters speaking French along the Canadian Border, or who says “Heh”?

    1. I hope so! Fucking dirty French Canadians! Even the British Canadians don’t like ’em!

  10. “I’ll be happy to drop the lawsuit in return for your resignation and agreement to stay out of law enforcement forever.”

  11. Agent Paul should do an internship at the Laredo port of entry. The offissas there speak a patois of pidgin Tex-Mex charmingly baffling to residents over one mile north or south of that river bridge. Whipping out a camera there, however, will bring a half-dozen armed steroid abusers on the run, each vying to seize the camera under vague asset-forfeiture “sharing” customs before the rest of the pack has a chance to claw at the loot.

  12. … would have been detained if they had been speaking French. “No, we don’t do that,”

    Oops! That just means that any ISIS terrorist who was born in France has to remember to speak French when in Montana.

    “Cochon parlez fran?ais?”

  13. If she had been driving through the border, a 40 minute detention by the border patrol probably wouldn’t raise my eyebrows. I’ve been detained at the border for 40+ minutes before because I was trafficking a young girl who happened to be my daughter.

    Anyhoo, she was inside a convenience store “near” the border. I hope she wins her lawsuit and sees her enemies driven before her, and hears the lamentations of their women.

    1. This is the more salient angle. Should an immigration officer be plying his trade in line at the QT with the same scrutiny that would apply when checking employment eligibility?

      It seems a bit much to me. Not because of the “speaking Spanish” angle, but because of the “in line at a convenience store” angle. In that setting, finding someone who speaks a foreign language shouldn’t be too surprising.

      Maybe it has to do with the locality. In most places I have lived, encountering a foreign language wouldn’t be terribly unusual these days.

      My dad lives in semi-civilized suburban North Carolina, and he routinely gripes about running in to situations at stores and restaurants where he has trouble communicating with the staff because of language barriers.

      1. I fucking hate that shit.

        Other than the fact that those assholes need to learn the language, who the hell hires those people for customer facing jobs???

        It’s one thing to cram bad English speakers in the back room or whatever, but you really shouldn’t have people who can’t speak English interacting with the customers. Accents are fine, but when people can’t even communicate basic things needed to deal with the matter at hand I get pissed. It’s just not acceptable.

  14. According to the complaint, Suda asked O’Neal’s supervisor whether she and Hernandez would have been detained if they had been speaking French. “No, we don’t do that,” the supervisor replied.

    This portion seems to me to be the only weakness in an otherwise solid case.

    There’s not enough information on whether the supervisor did patrols or was more of a bureaucrat. If the latter, then may be one of those “by the book” types who is out of touch with field agents.

    The question would have been better directed to O’Neil himself; for all we know, he very well may have detained someone with a French accent.

    1. . . . the only weakness in an otherwise solid case.

      What solid case? Speaking Spanish is not an indication of being in the country illegally. Plenty of people are in the country illegally who don’t even speak Spanish.

      And there obviously was no case – as their being let loose showed. He had nothing except his own prejudices.

      1. The case described in the OP: That they were wrongfully detained.

        So, the supervisor may have merely been an administrator, who didn’t always know whether the enforcers were following policy or not. Thus, the answer “No, we don’t do that” might be a true statement of policy, but naive for not knowing that some agents may have violated said policies.

        But we can’t know for certain whether the agent would have also detained someone who was speaking French, because the claimant asked about official policy instead of agent behavior.

      2. The question is too narrow, too precise, you see?

        A better question would have been “Do your agents have discretion to detain anyone on suspicion of illegal immigration on the basis of the language they’re speaking?”

        If the answer is “yes,” then it’s still true that the official policy is not to detain someone for speaking French, because that implies that Francophones are specifically targeted.

        If the answer is “no,” then it becomes pretty clear that this particular agent “went off the reservation.”

      3. “Speaking Spanish is not an indication of being in the country illegally.”

        Native Spanish speakers prefer to converse with each other in Spanish, regardless of how well they speak English. This includes American born Latinos who speak Spanish when they talk to native Spanish speakers.

        It’s just easier to converse in your native tongue.

        Plus they don’t have to worry about the pinche gringos eavesdropping.

        1. What always trips me out is how people that speak English well, and a foreign language, will mid sentence jump back and forth. I have heard that all my life with Spanish, but where I live now there are lots of Asians/Indians.

          So it’s all “Jibba jabba blah blah, and then she was like, jibba jabba jksdhfkjhsdkjfhjksd” and shit. It’s weird, but common. I guess my father and I both speaking a little German even we slide in random phrases and particular words almost as inside jokes or whatever… Actual foreigners just do that on a grander scale.

  15. Their first mistake was moving to a cousin-marrying Contard Hickbilly white supremacist state like Montana.

    1. Fuck off you fucking biggotted asshat! Generalize much?

    2. Funny you think that. In my family, where our ancestors came to Montana in the 1880s, a brother is a civil engineer, a sister is a speech therapist, and I became an economics professor. All from Havre, Montana, population about 15,000. And I know of two other locals also with graduate degrees in my field. So maybe your hometown did better by you, but I doubt it.

    3. Actually, the problem with Montana is it has too many shit libs now.

      Montana is not nearly as Red as one would think. Compared to like Idaho or something, it’s a lot more centrist/left leaning.

  16. MAGA. Enforce the law and investigate potential immigration violations.

    1. “potential” is not the standard used by the Constitution.

      1. You are correct that LC1789 is an idiot!

      2. Poor new trolls dont know wha probable cause means.

    2. Investigate – not kidnap at gunpoint for specious reasons.

    3. Heaven should protect us from people who would even suggest such a thing LC.

      Always focus on the individual.

      1. You are free to change the constitution. It includes exceptions to protections upon probable cause.

        1. Two friends in a convenience store speaking in a language other than English is not even close to probable cause.

          How anyone who thinks as a libertarian could justify this is beyond me.

  17. The ACLU argues that O’Neal used the women’s language and accents as proxies for race, thereby violating the 14th Amendment’s guarantee of equal protection as well as the Fourth Amendment’s ban on unreasonable seizures.

    I seriously doubt that he used anything as a proxy for race.

    What he did use them as a proxy for is National Origin.

    Which is the crux of the problem I suppose. Because “or national origin” is enshrined in civil rights protections. It is also a primary component of the “illegal immigrant” status.

    So there’s where the conflict comes in. Not because this guy is some sort of bigot. But because his mandate is to determine national origin and if national origin =/= US then verify legal status.

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  19. That’s kidnapping, false imprisonment, and violating civil rights under color of authority. If we had a functioning justice system, deputy Fife would be in deep shit, but he’ll probably get a promotion and the taxpayers will fork over a couple hundred grand to his victims.

    -jcr

    1. Normally you might be correct but that pesky probable cause exception can sometimes throw a wrinkle in that claim.

      1. There was nothing close to probable cause here.

        -jcr

  20. Considering that this border patrol person was in Montana, right near the Canadian border, wouldn’t it make more sense if he had stopped the women after hearing them speak French? Or overhearing them say they were enjoying being “oat and aboat” that day?

    1. What percentage of our illegal immigrants are from Canada. What percentage of Canadians in the US are here illegally?

      Now answer the same questions for Spanish-speakers.

      There ya go.

      Canadians don’t seem to be flooding across the border illegally – and they have a fairly easy path to emigrate to the US legally if they’d like.

      All of which probably argues for increased legal immigration quotas for South and Central America.

      1. “All of which probably argues for increased legal immigration quotas for South and Central America.”

        If they’re ones that are capable of doing more than washing dishes.

        Latin America has a lot of educated middle class people spread around the whole place. I wouldn’t have a problem with a large number of those sorts coming here… But we REALLY don’t need more lawn guys.

        1. Some of the “lawn guys” were more than that in Mexico (and other Hispanic countries) but their illegal status prevents them from getting a related job.
          I’m for open immigration, with extreme vetting. I’m particular about who comes into my house.

          1. Ish. Most of the people that come to the US illegally are not educated. The average education of an illegal from Mexico is the equivalent of an 8th grade US education. There may be an accountant or engineer thrown in there, but they’re the exception, not the rule. Carpenter or car mechanic, sure. Plenty of guys at that level, but that’s about as high as it gets skill wise with illegals… If anything that “top class” of illegal ought to be the MINIMUM class for who we allow in.

            Open borders are suicide for a 1st nation. How people can deny this is insane. There are over 40 million people JUST in Mexico who have stated in polls they’d be interested in moving here. IIRC some guesstimates made from global surveys concluded that almost 700 MILLION people have interest in moving to the USA.

            If we ever had ANYTHING close to open borders, we would degenerate into a 3rd world toilet in a decade or so. It is simply not possible in the world as it exists today. Maybe if education levels and economic conditions are closer to equal in 100 years it might be possible then… But until then it is death for any 1st world nation. Open borders people need to accept this reality and quit deluding themselves about what it would REALLY look like if it happened.

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  23. Is Paul O’Neal even his real name? He looks Mexican to me with that Pancho Villa looking mustache on his face.

    1. Right??? That was the first thing I thought when I saw the pic, Mexican being racist to Mexicans… Because the left is NOT beyond doing that kind of shit. They’ve straight up pulled it when black cops beat/shot sketchy black criminals before.

      But then the name threw me. Maybe his mom was Mexican or Spanish or something?

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  26. LOL

    Maybe they should have spoke the language of the fucking country then???

    The fucked up thing here is there is a 98% chance their parents were illegals here, and they’re anchor babies.

    I’m from California… And fuck tons of people there that are citizens now got it during the Reagan amnesty. We DID NOT go from 2% Hispanic in the USA in the 60s to 16% from that 2% breeding THAT hardcore. Almost the entire Hispanic population in the USA is illegals or children/grandchildren of illegals.

    So the truth is their PARENTS should have been deported, then they wouldn’t have been here.

    ALSO, what a cuck! If I were border patrol I’d harass the FUCK out of some bitches speaking French! The French deserve harassment at all time in all situations! Especially since around there they’re likely French Canadians, which astoundingly enough makes them even worse than French people from France! 🙂

    1. It’s hard not having any friends, isn’t it? Does your posturing help to fill the vast void in your soul?

      -jcr

      1. I have friends, and I can even joke about this shit with them because they have a sense of humor and aren’t cucks! Do you not understand the nature of saying things on the internet in the most outlandish way possible?

        I mean I’m more or less serious, but worded it extra offensively, because why not?

        Also, FYI, I’m part Mexican. We just can’t tolerate this shit. It’s out of control. It turned my entire home state of California into a fucking third world country. It ALSO pushed it waaaaaay farther to the left than it would have been if the demographics had remained the same or changed less rapidly.

        I think given enough time we can probably integrate most of the Hispanics that are here… But the fewer the better, hence kick out the illegals. We’ve simply taken in too many people too fast.

        1. Immigration to the USA since 1965 has been the single largest migration of humans in all of human history in terms of the raw numbers. It has destabilized the country, and all of the traditional ideals of America are on the verge of collapse. You keep adding more people that don’t care about those ideals into the mix, and you seal the deal.

          The only demographic group in the USA that consistently supports all the major tenets of America are white Americans. It’s a fact, whether you like it or not. Adding immigrants to this mix you think you MAY be able to convert is playing Russian Roulette with a revolve with 4 bullets in it instead of even 1, since their tendencies are known. White Americans are shitty enough, but every other group is considerably worse.

          I’d rather have AMERICA than more Mexicans. Or even Asians, which I tend to like other than voting habits. You can deny reality all you want… But in 30 years if idiots like you get your way, and we’re living in an outright socialistic state, with no gun rights, no freedom of speech, etc… Just remember people that had common sense were right, and you were fucking idealistic utopian moron who ruined the greatest country in the history of mankind.

        2. Wow, histrionics much? I’ve actually lived in third-world countries, and I live in California right now myself, and there’s no comparison. Get your meds adjusted.

          -jcr

          1. Ugh. Seriously, pretty much all that shit will come to pass. Remember my words! Wishful thinking is NOT sound grounds for deciding the fate of nations. My opinions are based on observed reality, which is not pretty. I hope utopian fools like you are correct, but I doubt it.

            As for California being a 3rd world country… Obviously I’m exaggerating a bit. But the decline is obvious to anyone with eyes to see. I don’t know if I’ve ever been to a PROPER 3rd world country… Perhaps 2nd world bordering on 3rd world is more accurate for the crappiest places I’ve been. Cali in many respects IS there. It’s as shitty as Poland was when I went there a mere decade after the end of communism in many ways, and THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE.

            With all this shit it’s not where we are now, it’s where the trend line shows it going. If you’re too stupid and short sighted to see that we’re on a very bad trend line for all these things, I don’t know what to tell you. If you can’t tell the difference between a nation in ascendance with all new glistening infrastructure, flawless roads, little/no debt (personal or government), rapidly growing wages, etc etc etc and the shit show we have now… Then you’re blind. Lots of this stuff traces itself back to source issues that cause many smaller downstream problems. Having tens of millions of low/no skill immigrants that can ONLY produce low amounts of wealth adds to all those issues. 3rd world level jobs cannot support 1st world societies.

            1. Fuck off, you long-winded bigot.

              -jcr

              1. What a clever response! You’re a real genius!

                As I said, I can read statistics. The government and other respectable organizations make realistic projections for lots of trends… And many of those trends spell doom for the USA as being a nation anything like it is now if you consider how many of the trends intertwine.

                I’m sorry that facts don’t jive well with your utopian thinking on things… But it is what it is. Communists utopian ideas don’t work out well either IRL, so you have company!

                I’m not a “bigot” per se. I don’t hate anybody. Or have a problem with anybody existing. I have friends of all races. I don’t want to go oppress or enslave anybody. I just have common sense, and realize importing people that are less educated and more dysfunctional than your average white trailer park resident or black ghetto dweller that is native born IS NOT going to improve the country in any way. Especially their voting patterns.

                1. As I’ve often said, you can argue all you want that open borders are the correct NAP compliant position… I agree actually. But no sane person can conclude that true open borders are the best PRACTICAL policy for maintaining a 1st world nation with a high standard of living. I’d rather have a 1st world country than an NAP compliant immigration policy.

                  I do ask though, that if you people get your way… Please remember intelligent people warning you in advance when you’re sitting there in a crumbling 3rd world shit hole version of America ruled by socialist SJWs who explicitly hate white people and all western culture. You feeling a fool will be my consolation prize.

    2. VEK, your xenophobia, and ignorance, is showing.

      And, as to speaking French, you best stay out of norther New England where English is very often spoken with a Quebecois accent by people who met the English when they arrived.

      Best stay out of places like Switzerland too where they have four, count ’em, four official languages (one of them French, btw), and there is apparently no antagonism between the different speakers. Why, they can’t even say “thank you” without crossing the linguistic divide.

      Merci vielmal for reading this.

      1. Sorry boys, it’s just a dose of tough love.

        You people think things are all just going to magically work out, all evidence to the contrary. I don’t have a problem with immigration if it’s done right… But the scale and speed we’ve had in the USA in recent decades is some of the highest ever globally proportionally, and is actually the most ever in total numbers.

        And it is causing obvious problems. That anyone should be surprised that the largest mass movement of people in history has issues along with it is ridiculous.

        The Swiss have had centuries to hash out their issues. If you replaced the French Swiss with all Japanese people in the span of a single generation, they’d have problems too. Despite that the Japanese are great people, and equally well educated. Now imagine if they were all 8th grade educated people coming into a far more advanced Swiss society. It’d be borked. This has been the outcome in EVERY country that’s taken in large numbers of low skilled foreigners lately.

        I think we MAY be able to whip our current immigrants into shape, as I’ve said countless times… But NOT if we continue allowing people in at this pace. If people come in faster than you can assimilate them, THEY will assimilate YOU. That is not acceptable, but has absolutely happened in California and the Southwest to a large degree.

        1. In short it’s not xenophobic thinking, it’s xeno-rational thinking. I have history, human psychology, and lots of statistical facts on my side… You have a couple decades worth of hypothetical, unproven (or disproven really), utopian thinking on your side.

          Were the Romans being xenophobic to worry about my Germanic barbarian ancestors settling in their territory… Or rational? Were the Native Americans xenophobic to worry about white people settling in their territory… Or rational?

          We’re seeing a change of that type and that scale. If you like your country, it most likely won’t survive. That’s all I’m sayin’ bro.

    3. Good thing you’re not a Border Patrol agent then punk. You’re obviously not fit to wear the uniform, or any uniform for that matter.

      1. Psh. Your irrationally utopian thinking is the new and adherent one historically. If I’m overly pessimistic, you’re surely overly optimistic about how things will work out. Keep in mind I don’t hate anybody, I just don’t think things will work out well.

    4. Civilization. Join it.

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  32. How is the 59th step the one that broke the camels back?

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