11 Dead in Mass Shooting at Pittsburgh Synagogue

Here's what we know so far about the mass shooting at Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh.

A gunman opened fired in a Pittsburgh synagogue on Saturday morning, killing multiple people.

Police have confirmed that 11 people were killed and a number of other were injured at the Tree of Life synagogue in the city's Squirrel Hill neighborhood. Police exchanged fire with the gunman as they arrived on the scene.

The suspect has been identified as 46-year-old Robert Bowers. He was arrested after surrendering to police. Over police scanners, officers reported that the suspect was shouting about wanting to kill Jewish people. Federal authorities are reportedly investigating the shooting as a hate crime.

A series of anti-Semitic posts on the social media site Gab have been linked to the suspect. In a statement to NBC News, Gab said it "took swift and proactive action to contact law enforcement immediately. We first backed up all user data from the account and then proceeded to suspend the account. We then contacted the FBI and made them aware of this account and the user data in our possession."

A past president of the Tree of Life synagogue told KDKA that there would have been three simultaneous services being held inside the building at the time of the shooting—each with between 15 and 40 people in attendance.

The Tree of Life synagogue was founded more than 150 years ago. Its website describes it as a "a conservative Jewish congregation."

Bari Weiss, a member of The New York Times editorial board, says she was bat mitzvahed at Tree of Life synagogue, which she describes as a "major conservative synagogue" that would have been full for Saturday morning services.

There is an active shooter at Tree of Life in Pittsburgh. Major Conservative synagogue in Squirrel Hill where I was bat mitzvahed. Saturday morning services is the most crowded time of the week. https://t.co/xRSvVxkWtF

— Bari Weiss (@bariweiss) October 27, 2018

President Donald Trump tweeted Saturday morning that he was watching the events unfold.

As always, a word of caution about these early reports of mass casualty incidents. Media, social media, and even law enforcement often get important details wrong, and we continue to await official confirmation of number of victims or any information about the attacker. Still, by all accounts, something awful has happened in Pittsburgh this morning.

This post has been updated throughout.

Comments

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Just awful.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

What a horrible nut punch on a rainy Saturday. I will refrain from politicizing this tragedy.

[Juice]

It always seems to rain on the fucking weekend, ruining my plans for outdoor activities and yard work. What's up with that?

[John]

Isn't that an Alanis Morissette song?

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

Only if you are getting married, John. Did you find the one?

[Red Tony]

Past Me and John finally got over their mutual worries and confessed their love for each other?

[Wearenotperfect]

"I will refrain from politicizing this tragedy."

You won't do it, fuck it then I will! Drumpf is indirectly responsible for this!

[soldiermedic76]

How?

[Red Tony]

92% sure that Wearenotperfect was being sarcastic.

[Sevo]

Gonna go to 99%

[Agammamon]

SOMEHOW!

[Earth Skeptic]

Cuz he's mean, silly.

[Rat on a train]

Mueller will find out.

[loveconstitution1789]

Interesting the Lefties are covering for the neo-Nazi socialist that did this.

The media cannot keep up the charade that scary stuff on a package is equivalent to actually hurting people.

Lefty violence and their nutty followers will get worse and worse.

[Last of the Shitlords]

My socialist aunt rages on an on about how Donald Trump says such horrible things, but can't understand why I might have a problem with anything Maxine Waters has said in the past.

[ShotgunJimbo]

Your desperation to push the blame for everything under the sun on "the left" just highlights the fact that your constant claims of being a libertarian are a hoax. Anyone who does anything bad is a lefty socialist to you. You don't have any ability to view a scenario with objectivity or any kind of analytical mind. You are a MAGA-bot. You probably listen to too much conservative talk radio or fox news (I listen to both too, I just take it with a massive grain of salt).

When someone shoots up a place with dual AR15s grafted to his arms, with an American flag cape, a cross around his neck, and a MAGA hat on you will find a way to do enough mental gymnastics to think he is a lefty. Because that's a defense mechanism...for right wing conservatives.

The left sucks man, a lot. It's why despite my extreme dislike for the hypocrite republicans, I end up voting for them more than I would like due to the left being even shittier (probably how Trump won PA, you're welcome). But the left didn't steal your newspaper (you still get a newspaper?! wtf?) They didn't put that flaming bag of poo on your doorstep. And they didn't egg your house last week. Please get some sense of objectivity.

[RenaD]

Have you been on Twitter lately? Because the Left is out in force blaming this on Donald Trump. They actually believe that because Trump has condoned Nazism (where they get that, I have no idea) and because his rhetoric is 100 percent hate-filled, we can lay responsibility for this and the pipe bomber squarely at his feet.

Now, I don't carry that man's water, but, sheesh, the Left's hysteria around this is not only thick, it's ridiculous.

[loveconstitution1789]

The lefties know what is coming, so they are trying to hide their violent soldiers by calling them "right-wing Nazis".

Their soldiers are Left-wing Neo-Nazis. Nazis are Socialists who wanted/want to control everything using racism and Nationalism.

Election 2018 will go horribly for Lefties and trump will be reelected in 2020. The end of the Democratic Party as a powerful political party is happening before your eyes. The Lefties know this which is why they will step up violence. Their soldiers will threaten, attack, and bomb people who oppose them.

The Lefties have even said that they will not be ignored. By that they mean that they will not allow non-Lefties to control government.

[Leo Marvin]

LOL. Does it ever occur to you that if the Left was actually the conspiratorial hydra you imagine it to be, the first thing it would have to do is invent you?

All the money in the world can't buy the persuasive value to left-wing sanity of a right wing zealot who incessantly mutters, "the Neo-Nazis are leftists."

You might as well be wearing a sandwich sign that says "THE END IS NIGH!!! (vote trump)"

Keep up the good work.

[loveconstitution1789]

More Lefty trolls who hate that Nazism is being historically wrighted back to Leftwong where it belongs.

Nazis are socialists after all.

[ShotgunJimbo]

Correct and those Twitter babies should be correctly made fun of and called out for that level of insanity. The left does, after all, suck.

My point was that we have a certain few people intent on shouting out everything that is objectively "bad" is left-wing lefty lefterson stuff.

I'm sorry but an uber racist who is screaming about the caravan and people invading us, who's Gab is loaded with a mix of racist garbage and pics of what he can do with his Walther PPS at 30 yards, as well as pics of his gun collection, who thinks Trump is too culturally competent because of his love for the Jews....ya lets call a spade a spade, he ain't left wing.

[loveconstitution1789]

Poor Lefty Troll Shotgun.

Follows me around like a puppy to make my points ring true.

First Lefties try and discredit you or minimize your message.
Then Lefties try to silence you.
Then Lefties attack you to silence you.

[ShotgunJimbo]

"First Lefties try and discredit you or minimize your message."

You discredit your own message on the regular. You are basically a non-thinking caricature scared of the "lefty" boogeyman. It's like if Hannity and Ann Coulter brainwashed a baby

"Then Lefties try to silence you."

God knows they won't be able to silence you my man 😉

"Then Lefties attack you to silence you."

I'm sure you are more than capable of defending yourself when the latte drinking SJWs come for you.

[jejobi]

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[JesseAz]

The reporting in this incident is so much different than the bombs. No blame on random speech from various political entities.

[Rich]

Patience, Jesse.... That'll show up in the obligatory calls for common-sense gun control.

[JesseAz]

This may sound callous... But I'm actually curious how Acosta and CNN will try to tie themselves to the tragedy.

[Ken Shultz]

The temptation to politicize this into something partisan so close to an election will probably be irresistible.

[ShotgunJimbo]

I mean the connection immediately made with the bombs is one a middle school kid would probably be able to make. Some MAGA whack job sent bombs to the enemies Trump bitches about in his rallies. That connection kind of begs to be made. Obviously Trump is not actually at fault or on the hook for any of this, but naturally the reporting is going to focus on things he said...since the people he regularly shit talks got fake-ish (have any of them even been found with a potential to explode?) bombs sent to them.

If he was shit talking Jews on a daily basis at his rallies (that would be of some concern), and then a synagogue got shot up, I think the reporting would pretty quickly make that connection.

[JesseAz]

There is a whole industry of anti semitism on college campuses with the divest movement. We literally just had Twitter say it was fine for Farrakhan to call Jewish people termites. There are the constant calls of Israeli terrorism. There are far more political connections here than the Florida bomber.

[John]

Yes there are. But since those connections all lead back to the Left, the media won't touch them.

[The ghOst of mcgOo]

I'm sure when/if the investigation discovers the shooter was a pro-palestine sjw, the president himself will make it known to the country. The media need not participate. Of course, I could be wrong....

[John]

Maybe so, but that still will not prevent the media from dropping it very quickly.

[Paloma]

Let's hope so. The narrative now is white male terrorist gun lover/ common sense gun laws.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Some people respond to mass shootings with thoughts concerning gun safety laws.

Others, such as President Trump (today), immediately propose that churches, synagogues, and mosques (like schools, hospitals, theaters, and daycare centers) should employ armed guards.

Over time, the gun nuts seemed destined to lose this argument.

[JesseAz]

Almost nobody responds about gun safety laws. They want gun confiscation. You are one of those Kirkland. At least be honest in your stupidity.

By the way.... polling on guns rights increases over time, not decreases.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Confiscation? I believe the Constitution recognizes a right to possess a firearm for self-defense in the home.

I just hope the predictable snapback against gun nuttery does not overrun that right.

[TuIpa]

" I believe the Constitution recognizes a right to possess a firearm for self-defense in the home."

If you can articulate an intelligent reason why it is only in the home where the Constitution recognizes this' that'd be great.

[Duelles]

Mr Kirk- Where does the Constitution mention "home" in the 2nd? You are a trolling fool..

[Naaman Brown]

It goes to Kirkland's reaction to D.C. v Heller 2008.

D.C. banned (a) handguns period and (b) having a working firearm in the home for self-defense. Heller challenged the bans on 2A grounds.

In keeping with the Standard Model of 2A articulated by constitutional scholarship since circa 1981 (including Larry Tribe, Don Kates and Alan Dershowitz), SCOTUS held in 2008 that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes*, such as self-defense within the home.

Since the right to own a handgun for self-defense in the home was the issue raised by Heller himself, Kirkland only wants to concede on that one point.

But that was not the holding. "The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."

_______________________
*(Well, "traditionally lawful purposes" includes civilian marksmanship practice to be prepared for volunteer military service but that issue was not raised by the Heller case.)

[RenaD]

Almost nobody responds about gun safety laws. They want gun confiscation.

Exactly.

Twitter is awash with DO SOMETHING! When I ask, "What? What other laws could we put in place, that we don't already have, that would prevent this kind of violence from ever happening again, for ever and ever, amen?" I either get crickets or: "Ban them all."

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

The First Amendment does not mention pornography, false statements of fact, obscenity, fighting words, child pornography, statements about securities, threats of violence, nuclear weapons plans, government secrets, or copyrighted information.

The Second Amendment does not mention nuclear weapons, courtrooms, schools, government office buildings, tanks, the White House, minors, anti-aircraft weaponry, the insane, or convicted murderers.

These omissions must puzzle, or the exceptions must infuriate, absolutists.

[Last of the Shitlords]

All false analogies. Try again.

[RenaD]

Ah, there it is. The false equivalencies of the day award goes to . . .

Look, Rev., the Consitution's Bill of Rights mentions NONE of those things, because the Bill of Rights is a document meant to govern the govern, not the governed. It's illegal to rape, murder, steal, burn or otherwise vandalize someone's property because we the people are endowed with the unequivocal right to our life and liberty, not because an arbitrary gov't says so. Someone commits those crimes?with or without a weapon?they are prosecuted. The Constitution doesn't care if you use a musket, a garden hoe, a drone, or a nuclear weapon.

[RenaD]

"meant to govern the government, not the governed." (again, when are we getting an edit button?)

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

There is a whole industry of anti semitism on college campuses with the divest movement.

It is anti-Semitism or, instead, objection to American-enable, immoral, right-wing Israeli belligerence?

You would need an education to distinguish those points, you bigoted rube.

[Sevo]

Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland|10.27.18 @ 3:05PM|#
"It is anti-Semitism or, instead, objection to American-enable, immoral, right-wing Israeli belligerence?"
It's anti-Semitism, asshole.

"You would need an education to distinguish those points, you bigoted rube."
Ignoramuses like you are too dumb to understand what a cave-man can.
Fuck off.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Open wider, Sevo.

Open wider.

[HGW xx/7]

I don't care what your mom says; I think you're the fiercest and most intimidating basement-dwelling "thug" of all-time, those high-pitches growls and all.

Now, heads upstairs, you sweet little bigot. Mom said your Hot Pockets are ready.

[HGW xx/7]

And that was directed at our dear Rev. Sorry if I confused you, little guy.

[Sevo]

Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland|10.27.18 @ 3:33PM|#
"Open wider, Sevo.
Open wider."
Keep changing the subject, you fucking bigot.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Your betters are not done shoving progress -- tolerance, reason, science, modernity, education -- down right-wingers' bitter, whiny, bigoted throats. Anyone who thinks that the liberal-libertarian alliance is done with this, after more than a half-century of making America better, is destined to be disappointed.

[HGW xx/7]

Revvie, dear, I told you to let your Hot Pocket cool before biting into it, but you didn't listen. Just because you have a burnt tongue, it doesn't mean you can lash out at people.

Now stop crying and nonsensically babbling, and go lay down for a bit. Your owwie will feel better soon.

[TuIpa]

"Your betters are not done shoving progress -- tolerance, reason, science, modernity, education -- down right-wingers' bitter, whiny, bigoted throats. "

By losing elections left and right and having their implementation of their agendas nullified on a daily basis.

Sounds almost Trumpian in a 5d chessmaster way.

[Sevo]

Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland|10.27.18 @ 5:23PM|#

Fuck off, scumbag.

[Fancylad]

Go fuck yourself Kirkland. Trolling is one thing but you've gone too far.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

I gather The King Of The Disaffected Right-Wing Bigots has delivered his formal judgment on this point?

As a libertarian, I decline to recognize Fancylad's jurisdiction.

Carry on, clingers.

[DesigNate]

You're not a libertarian, fucktard.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

In this context, it is enough that I am more a libertarian than you are, or than the average faux libertarian right-winger is.

[Sevo]

"As a libertarian, I decline to recognize Fancylad's jurisdiction."

Given that you are a liar and an asshole, what makes you think anyone gives a shit about your fantasies, shitbag?

[JesseAz]

It's antisemitism. Because they refuse to acknowledge the terrorist actions and killings of the elected Palestinian government against Israel.

[sharmota4zeb]

Perhaps America should annex the Gaza Strip. Clinton embraced Arafat, because he was the head of a large terrorist organization with a proven ability to kill many civilians. Our federal government is not keen on the idea of embracing over a million Gaza Strip residents, because they don't have much power to kill Westerners or earn money for America.

Let's do the right thing and accept the people Arafat lead. Gazan residents would have the same rights as Porto Ricans enjoy. They could live and work in any part of America, stay in Gaza to enjoy our legal protections, military might, and economic benefits, or apply for visas to other countries with their American passports in their hands at the embassies of those countries.

[TuIpa]

It's Antisemitism.

HTH.

[Ken Shultz]

"Some MAGA whack job sent bombs to the enemies Trump bitches about in his rallies."

To be fair, those suspicious packages seem to have been sent to Trump's critics, some of whom have called for an end of civility to get rid of Trump--one of which seemed to call for direct action against Trump administration officials.

P.S. I've been digging Reuters via their TV app, recently, and given the pathetic state of journalism elsewhere, these days, I'm starting to appreciate their almost absurd pretense of objectivity.

Reuters, for instance, famously refused to refer to the Al Qaeda (or anyone else) as "terrorists" because one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Seems ridiculous, doesn't it? Right up until the media jumps on calling something a bomb that may not have been capable for exploding or Maxine Waters calling for the general public to seemingly get nasty against Trump administration officials.

Hence the use of "suspicious package" in my comment and "direct action".

[chemjeff radical individualist]

No no, Jimbo. You don't get it. The standards are lower for Trump.

Did Trump directly say "go and send bombs to my critics"? No? Then Trump is TOTALLY BLAMELESS and you just have a case of TDS to even DARE make any connection at all that a guy with MAGA stickers all over his van is sending bombs to the people Trump criticizes on a daily basis!

Meanwhile, Obama quotes a movie line about bringing a gun to a knife fight at a speech once, and Republicans bitch about it for years.

[Procyon Rotor]

Is it painful? The brain condition that makes you perceive the opposite of reality I mean. I've always wondered if that hurts.

[TuIpa]

Jeff, the guy was fucking crazy, stop making a fool of yourself.

[croaker]

Making him the perfect patsy for whoever is really involved.

[Fancylad]

I've got a feeling this guy is like that Egyptian filmaker, Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, that Obama and Clinton blamed for the Benghazi attacks. The DNC loves to scapegoat.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

No, no, Jeffy. You don't get it. The standards are higher for Trump and lower for team blue. You're just a Trump fanatic if you argue facts and principles. Dammit, EMOTIONS matter!

And it's completely unfair to blame the attempted assassination of multiple members of Congress on the team blue rhetoric claiming that republicans are going to "kill millions" with any health care reform even though the shooter was actually screaming out loud, "this is for health care."

Never change, pigeon, never change.

[Last of the Shitlords]

He is a precocious little tyke, isn't he? Too bad he's so stupid.

[damikesc]

Well, Julia Ioffe just blamed Trump and any Jews who supported him due to the embassy move.

[Last of the Shitlords]

Progtards are the ultimate victim blazers.

[Tony]

People have pretty much already taken sides on the "Kill the Jews?" question.

[sharmota4zeb]

Between the neo-Nazis and the Nation of Islam, both the left and the right finds room for the "Kill the Jews" caucus in their preferred major party. Meanwhile, the New Jersey Libertarian Party has a Muslim woman chairing their northern region and a bisexual Jewish man serving as her vice chair.

[Tony]

Yeah it's not a high bar.

[Wizard with a Woodchipper]

Using this week's rules, I blame the shooting on the Jew hatred rhetoric of Farrakhan, Sharpton, Sarsour and other mainstream democrats.

[Ken Shultz]

My heart goes out to all the victims and their loved ones.

[DajjaI]

This is terrorism and I CONDEMN IT. Still, it's important to understand the motivations of people like him. Basically they are all trying to spark a revolution. This is true of the Florida bomber and people like Dylan Roof and James Hodgkinson (baseball shooter) and many others. They each try to vindicate their ideology in the hope that others will follow. The important thing is not to overreact. When people see that events like this amount to nothing, they won't copycat. Generally we do a good job of not getting hysterical, though I fear this case might be more of a challenge.

[sharmota4zeb]

I agree. We must condemn the terrorism without freaking out.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

This is a great read: The Love Story That Upended The Texas Prison System.

Another Cruz v. Beto tale from Texas.

[John]

I am reading that the guy was a nutcase who hated Trump because he is being controlled by the world Jewish conspiracy. My guess is that like the doofus in Florida, this guy likely did everything up to and maybe including post of Facebook and Instagram that he planned to do this, has been arrested a dozen times, told cops and everyone who would listen that he wanted to kill the Jews and that in spite of all this the police did nothing.

These guys always seem to be known wolves. No one, except for that lunatic in Las Vegas, ever seems to just blow a gasket. They always tell the world how dangerous they are and the police do nothing.

[Kirk Solo]

Solid point sir.

[Ken Shultz]

I don't know what the net effect of this will be on the upcoming election, but I'd bet it's a wash.

You know how gun sales used to jump in the aftermath of a mass shooting--when Obama was in office. I read that some of the gun manufacturers aren't noticing that effect since Trump took office. People aren't as afraid that they won't be able to buy an AR-15 the week after a shooting like they did when Obama was in the White House.

That being said, this shooting is likely to spur a lot of anti-Second Amendment rhetoric on the left, and while that might not make people who care about gun rights to go splurge on a new AR-15, it might make them more likely to show up at the polls.

Meanwhile, the left pontificating on gun rights is likely to charge Democrats up in blue states. If anything, I'd bet this makes the Democrats even more likely to take the House and the Republicans more likely to keep the Senate.

P.S. The Florida bomber is now officially ancient history.

[John]

The fact that this guy hated Trump, assuming that is true, will kill the narrative of him being an evil white nationalist Trump supporter. Deprived of that narrative and not wanting to have to report on the horrific anti-semitism that goes on on the left, my guess is the media will drop this story by mid week.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Deprived of that narrative and not wanting to have to report on the horrific anti-semitism that goes on on the left,

Objection to right-wing Israeli belligerence is not anti-Semitism, as an education might enable you to discern, you disaffected wingnut.

[Sevo]

"Objection to right-wing Israeli belligerence is not anti-Semitism, as an education might enable you to discern, you disaffected wingnut."

Such "objection" is an anti-Semite red-herring, you fucking bigot.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kikekiller]

It's always the Jews' fault that people reject their offers of coexistence.

Like when Israel proposed a Palestinian state in both 2000; obvious belligerence! How dare the Jews suggest an end to occupation and a two-state solution! Obviously the violence of the Second Intifada was the only reasonable response.

If you weren't such an uneducated moron, the logic would be plainly obvious to you.

[Sevo]

Rev. Arthur L. Kikekiller|10.27.18 @ 4:01PM|#
"It's always the Jews' fault that people reject their offers of coexistence.
Like when Israel proposed a Palestinian state in both 2000; obvious belligerence! How dare the Jews suggest an end to occupation and a two-state solution! Obviously the violence of the Second Intifada was the only reasonable response."

You should learn to read, you fucking uneducated ignoramus

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Random bigot:

Arthur L. Kikekiller>/blockquote>

Sevo:

You should learn to read

Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland: [smile]

Clingers: [carrying on, as their better permit]

[TuIpa]

Learn how to use html you fucking retard.

[DWB]

Clingers: [carrying on, as their better permit]

The Rev's got a final solution!

[Sevo]

Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland|10.27.18 @ 5:26PM|#
"Random bigot:"

Correct. And asshole besides.

[sharmota4zeb]

Rev, that's like saying arresting Black people for marijuana use while letting White people off the hook isn't racism, it's just law enforcement. An American libertarian who limits his criticism to America is following a non-interventionist policy. An American libertarian who limits his criticism to America and Israel is a bigot who mistakenly thinks he found the one group who truly understands him. An American libertarian who will pick a topic and discuss how it applies in many countries is a cosmopolitan champion of universal human rights.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

I sense that most Americans who object to Israel's immoral, authoritarian, right-wing belligerence object to Saudi Arabia's immoral, authoritarian, right-wing belligerence, too. The problem is America enabling, funding, advising, and defending brutal, selfish, backward, religious (or ostensibly faithful) assholes. No particular flavor of superstition is better than another in this context.

[TuIpa]

"Objection to right-wing Israeli belligerence is not anti-Semitism, "

Sounds just like what a holocaust denying antisemite would say.

[Last of the Shitlords]

Arty, the Israelis are decent peace loving people that would happily live quietly amd without conflict if their murderous hate filled Islamic neighbors would do the same.

That you condemned the Israelis and advocate for murdeous Muslim terrorists really exp,aims who you are.

You're with the terrorists and love genocide of good people. The rest of us support peaceful educated people who believe in peace and decency.

You are a very evil person.

[Tony]

I'm curious John, how is Thanksgiving for your family, what with you being a psychopath?

[butt-head]

He's not Tony-of-the-Right for nothing. Your question must be rhetorical, since we know you can just infer from your own experience.

[Tony]

Fair enough. Sparkling conversation is a skill even people with no genuine emotions can master with sufficient practice.

[Fancylad]

Don't worry, I'm sure you feel emotion Tony. Hate and self-pity for sure, anyway, and maybe even envy.

[Last of the Shitlords]

Tony, John is not a psychopath, you probably are. Or at least a garden variety sociopath. Which is why you like the democrats. They attract that.

[butt-head]

He is a white-nationalist, though. Anti-semitism is rich across the entire political spectrum, and he is clearly on the rightward end. One wouldn't need to mention leftist anti-semitism at all, and it's rather much closer to irrelevance.

I agree the media will drop it, though, except as a hazy (details disregarded) reference to support theses of increasing political divide and violent rhetoric.

[loveconstitution1789]

Evangelicals of the right love jews. They travel to thr holy land all the time.

Nazis on the Left along with the Democrat KKK hate jews.

[John]

And Trump came out and said the obvious truth that this would have been different had there been armed guards. Expect a long round of pearl clutching over his callousness not to accept full responsibility for this event.

[Vernon Depner]

A movie theater in my neighborhood hosts a Jewish Film Festival every year. They post armed guards outside the theater.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Trump was excoriated on CNN for his statements on the tarmac.

[Last of the Shitlords]

"Trump was excoriated on CNN for his statements"

This is universal, and not limited to any time, or location, or subject.

[Tony]

There were armed guards called cops. Three were shot.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Gun nuts claim more guns help a situation.

Three incapacitated police officers tend to disagree.

Carry on, clingers. More of the guns-God-gays crusade, perhaps?

[TuIpa]

Hey look it's that idiot who can't use html.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Gun nuts claim more guns help a situation.
Three incapacitated police officers tend to disagree

So all that government-approved training didn't do them any good in an active shooter situation, hicklib?

[TuIpa]

He steps on his own dick constantly.

[Red Tony]

That implies his dick is long enough to step on. I personally doubt it's long enough to penetrate an ant.

[sharmota4zeb]

In some cities, the cops aren't that interested in patrolling Jewish neighborhoods. During the Crown Heights Riots, Dinkins decided to keep the cops off the streets.

[Rufus The Monocled]

I think it's time to realize they just use 'ideology' to mask their own inner demons and evil intentions.

Save the ideology angle for rational actors not mental cases.

As for the Vegas shooter, eery how that story 'disappeared' despite open questions.

RIP to the victims. Tragic.

[John]

Yes. The ideology just gives them a rationalization to do whatever it is they want. Sometimes the ideology makes an ordinary criminal loser into a mass murderer by giving them a larger purpose in life. Sometimes, they are murderers to begin with and the ideology just gives them a rationalization for what they were going to do anyway.

[Paloma]

E.g. Charles Manson and "Helter Skelter"

[What's that smell?]

In fairness there's not much they can do. It's not a crime to say you want to kill someone. The authorities only option is to make note and observe. But arrest requires a crime to be committed.

[John]

But commitment for being a dangerous lunatic doesn't. Most of these guys are criminally insane and should be committed long before they harmed someone.

[Vernon Depner]

Be careful what you wish for. It is very difficult to get an involuntary commitment of someone who has not (yet) done any physical harm to himself or others. It SHOULD BE very difficult. Mental health professionals are very consistent in saying that they are not very good at predicting who will commit violent crimes in the future if they don't already have a history of that. I hope you don't really want it to be easy to lock someone up just because they have been labeled a "dangerous lunatic" for espousing fringe opinions.

[damikesc]

A being an anti Semitic idiot, with no violence attached, should not have legal issues. Now the FL school shooter should have been dealt with.

[Vernon Depner]

Nikolas Cruz was "dealt with" by mental health professionals. They simply were not successful. Before the shooting, there had been discussion among his counselors and school officials about an involuntary commitment but they did not agree that he qualified for that. As I said above, mental health practitioners are not able to predict outbursts of violence. It's easy to see what they should have done in hindsight. There are millions of people as whack as Cruz was who never do such a thing.

Nikolas Cruz psychiatric history CNN

[ShotgunJimbo]

Slippery slope and all that jazz.

It does sound good (and kind of common sense) that someone this crazy should be committed long before in a straight jacket.

However, once people get the power to snatch you up for being whacked out, I would be scared of their ability to label anyone disagreeing with the common people-think and/or spouting off as nuts, and using it to lock up their opponents. We already can't trust cops to police correctly without abusing their (fire)power.

Would be great for those who agree with the people holding the cards, not so much for the others.

I feel where you're coming from though, fuck that guy. Straight to hell

[Sevo]

"However, once people get the power to snatch you up for being whacked out, I would be scared of their ability to label anyone disagreeing with the common people-think and/or spouting off as nuts, and using it to lock up their opponents. We already can't trust cops to police correctly without abusing their (fire)power."

Yep.
Give the government the power to put you in what is a slammer by just calling you nuts and a whole lot of folks will soon be "nuts".

[croaker]

That's how the Soviet Union operated. If you didn't agree with Communism you were obviously crazy and needed help. And you got help, in the Gulag.

[Sevo]

Pretty sure it was Applebaum's "Gulag" which made it clear that any accusation regarding rejection of Stalin's authority was sufficient. But here, yep, the lefties would probably have to invent some half-way believable charge.
Such a criteria would in no way prevent turd, Tony, the annoying asshole from 'denouncing' those who called them on their bullshit...

[JFree]

They always tell the world how dangerous they are and the police do nothing.

What should they do BEFORE an actual crime?

[Seamus]

If you saw Minority Report, you'd know the answer to that question.

[Brian]

Another socialist rampage.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

The killer was a gun nut who hated gays, blacks, Jews, etc. and ranted about white grievance.

Relatively standard-issue disaffected right-winger.

[Brian]

Or National Socialist, which is, uh, socialist.

[Moo Cow]

Oh for gods sakes.

[ShotgunJimbo]

Get ready for another round of reason's favorite game : Nazi hot potato! Who will end up with that steamy tyrannical tuber?!

[sharmota4zeb]

😀

[loveconstitution1789]

Nazis are socialists and always have been. Left wing.

[Sevo]

loveconstitution1789|10.27.18 @ 11:42PM|#
"Nazis are socialists and always have been. Left wing."

Like the Bolsheviks, the lot of the Nazis had no idea what Htiler intended. The Goring Steel Works were certainly not intended to be owned by Goring, no more than Leningrad was intended to be owned by Lenin.
Read "Wages of Destruction" (Adam Tooze) if you wish to be informed, or STFU.

[ShotgunJimbo]

Announcer:

LC tosses the tato to the lefties!! What will they do?!

[loveconstitution1789]

The Lefties evidently send in trolls to try and stop the tide turning against socialist propaganda.

[Seamus]

Don't forget that he hated Trump (and presumably still does), so I guess that's also part of the profile of a standard-issue disaffected right-winger.

[Ken Shultz]

To those who are interested in this kind of thing, the shooter, apparently, denounced the Trump administration on Twitter.

All the details are here:

https://heavy.com/news/2018/10/robert-bowers/

He denounced Trump for having Jews in his administration, among other things. He said he wouldn't touch a MAGA hat.

"Trump is a globalist, not a nationalist.

There is no #MAGA as long as there is a [antisemitic slur] infestation"

----Robert Bowers

"For the record, I did not vote for him nor have I owned, worn or even touched a maga hat."

----Robert Bowers

The media will try to pin this on Trump, anyway, no doubt.

Also, of note, Bowers isn't a registered Republican. Thank God he isn't a libertarian, but, at any rate, he's registered as "unaffiliated".

[Jerryskids]

Whether or not the guy was a Trump fan or a Trump hater, Trump is the one who dog-whistled all the racists and the bigots and the haters that it was A-OK to be loud and proud of your racism and your bigotry and your hate speech. So, obviously Trump's fault. Hell, Maxine Waters and Corey Booker and Hillary Clinton can be blamed on Trump, too, if you want to play the "why did you make me hit you, you know how much it hurts me to have to hit you" game.

[Ken Shultz]

That's the justification online.

In the media, we'll see this stuff just left out of the reports entirely.

Lies of omission.

The truth is that Robert Bowers hates Trump because Trump isn't a racist.

There's no way to weave that into the ongoing media narrative ahead of the elections, so they'll just omit it entirely.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Bowers hates Trump because he figures Trump isn't hard enough on the immigrants, Jews, blacks, gays, and others Bowers blames for his desolate, deplorable life. But he and Trump's base fit easily within a peapod.

[XM]

Making stuff up when cornered by facts - yep, that's a hallmark for the hard left.

[Last of the Shitlords]

Hey faggot, maybe it's because he has a daughter who converted to Judaism, and therefore Jewish grandkids. And he also supports Israel.

Unlike you, you fucking anti Semitic, genocidal socialist bigot.

[Eddy]

The right-wing goobers at CNN confirm that the shooter denounced Trump:

"His posts also included criticism of President Trump

"Among the many anti-Semitic social media posts were comments suggesting that President Trump was surrounded by too many Jewish people. "Trump is surrounded by k****", "things will stay the course," read one post on the Gab social media platform, which used a derogatory term to describe Jews. Another post, apparently intended as an insult, read: "Trump is a globalist, not a nationalist," Bowers said two days before the shooting. "There is no #MAGA as long as there is a k*** infestation.

"He said he didn't vote for Trump

"Roughly four hours before the shooting, Bowers commented in a post that he did not vote for Trump."

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Eddy, that can't be. Haven't you heard that CNN is just a Democrat talking points machine? They don't report news, they report propaganda. Why would CNN post the truth about what Bowers said on social media when that truth doesn't help the Democrats impeach Trump? Maybe CNN is the one playing 99th Dimensional Chess. Yeah, that's it.

[Eddy]

I suppose sometimes they have to acknowledge what everyone else has already uncovered.

I think it's a fairly low standard to praise CNN for noting facts which have already come to light and of which the public is already aware.

[Last of the Shitlords]

Little Jeffy is an enthusiast of low standards.

[Rebel Scum]

They posted that on their website. I'd be surprised if the evening "news" talking heads mention it in any meaningful way.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Don't you have a barrio to not be living in?

[TuIpa]

chemjeff everyone, because he needed you to know he is stupid.

[Echospinner]

Please do not make this into a Trump issue.

[Eddy]

How about a death penalty issue (see below)?

[Eddy]

I looked up Pennsylvania's death penalty on Wikipedia, and found that they have a good sized population on death row, but only 3 actual executions since 1976.

(For those who think the death penalty may be OK in some circumstances, like a mass killing, for example)

[Ken Shultz]

How often do you see mass shooters that expect to survive? Remember that kid that survived the elementary school shooting? He threw his rifle up on the roof and walked home, thoroughly surprised that the cops weren't there at the school to shoot him.

I don't think you'll get much a deterrent effect for that. Some of these people may be looking to be martyrs. Some of them maybe aren't courageous enough to kill themselves--and so they do something so dreadful that living is scarier than dying and the off themselves.

I'm trying to think of the last time there was a mass shooting when the shooter was trying to get away with it. Maybe the DC Sniper, and that was a long time ago. Point being, you're not going to deter people who plan to die by threatening to kill them. In fact, that might just encourage them.

[Eddy]

I'm not saying would-be mass shooters can be deterred, but they can certainly be incapacitated from doing further mischief on prison guards, fellow-prisoners, etc. In any case, I'm not really wedded to the death penalty, there are simply some crimes which shock me and make me think of the justice system meting out a lethal response.

[Mock-star]

Point of contention: Were the DC snipers mass shooters or serial killers? I say the latter.

[NYC2AZ]

Looks like it's going to be a federal case now.

[Eddy]

Not a fan of that, though I would be if I subscribed to the theory of "horrible crime = federal case."

[Tony]

What's really important is how this affects Trump's ability to MAGA without pesky impediments like congressional oversight, right Ken?

[butt-head]

Actually, he was pointing it out because it ("how does this affect my team?") is the first interest of many when an event like this occurs. Like, oh, you. He's doing you a favor, Tony. Getting right to the shit, the only shit, that you actually care about.

[Tony]

Unlike almost every cousinfucking redneck who thinks Trump makes a great president, I actually care about the future of the human species in an informed way. That people are still killing Jews for being Jews only reminds me how stupid the species remains.

[Sevo]

Tony|10.27.18 @ 8:58PM|#
"Unlike almost every cousinfucking redneck who thinks Trump makes a great president, I actually care about the future of the human species in an informed way."

You're a real laugh riot, shitbag.
"Informed" applies to you in two ways: "[M]is" and "un".

[Rebel Scum]

cousinfucking redneck

Is this the name of your band?

[Sevo]

It's shitbag's signature.

[RenaD]

But how do you feel about cousinfucking redneck Jews?

[ShotgunJimbo]

Antisemitism in today's America has always been somewhat puzzling to me. I know there's always this fear of the "others" that lesser minds have. Then there are the those that hold some sort of fear or grudge against a race based on some action(s) (9/11, ISIS being a bunch of consistent cunts).

But what about the Jews in America though? I have literally never seen an intimidating, scary, or sketchy Jew in western PA. They just kind of do their thing, aren't pushy about their religion, and don't really interfere with anyone's shit. Ya Israel's situation is fucked up but all the Jews I know don't give a shit about Israel, practice their religion how they will, and don't bother anyone.

Also what's the crime/arrest/mischief rate for Jews? It has to be low. They usually do pretty well in society without bothering people (at least I thought). What is up with all the intense hatred for them?

[butt-head]

Jews have outsized wealth and institutional influence, and that upsets people. It's really that simple.

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug]

True.

[loveconstitution1789]

Dont worry. Lefties like buttplugger have a final solution.

[sharmota4zeb]

Jews started the NAACP and helped get some landmark court cases passed through it. Some families with a history of voting Democrat never forgave them for it. They also participated in the protests during the Chicago Democratic convention to take the party from the Dixicrates.

Prior to the Holocaust, Jews were about as numerous as Argentinians. That's why they produced so many cultural products that still influence modern culture. After the Holocaust, it took Jews nearly a lifetime to get back to pre-Holocaust levels. Meanwhile, the rest of humanity had a population explosion. Jews are not over represented in the cultural sphere. They are underrepresented in the demographic sphere.

[DWB]

Oh horseshit!

Funny how you ignored the widespread anti-semitism among American blacks.

Rioting Jews in Chicago -- funny!!!!

[Paloma]

Jews are just extremely intelligent. They are urban dwellers, and love life. They don't put a lot of stock in an afterlife, they endeavor to love this one.

Enjoying life makes dour, dutiful puritan types hate you.

[DajjaI]

I've studied this issue extensively and have a few thoughts. Jews are generally pretty well behaved in the US and thus don't instigate much resentment. However we are fairly active politically on both sides of the spectrum and thus give lots of reasons for activists like this guy to hate us. In the past certain ideologies were censored in the media, much of which was controlled by Jews, and this was very frustrating for lots of people and they blamed us and sometimes acted out. But these days you can just voice your opinion online and thus you don't feel muted. Social networks like Facebook and comment forms have greatly reduced antisemitism, in my opinion. But they must be kept open or the hatred will be pushed underground where it will fester. But there are still nut cases like this guy. He thinks Jews are responsible for enabling mass immigration. He may have a point, but violence is not the way to express it. In fact it is likely to backfire.

[Sevo]

"What is up with all the intense hatred for them?"

It's been a while, but for quite some time anti-semitism was Christian-church doctrine. IOWs, a lot of people 'were raised that way'.

[Jerryskids]

Jews are some of the most-victimized people in history but they decided to man up and stop being victims which makes the perpetually aggrieved victim class look bad. Taking personal responsibility for yourself is anathema for the grievance mongers and the professional crybabies. It's the same reason there's such hatred for the "Uncle Toms" who "act white" by working hard, getting a good education, becoming successful. You're not supposed to be able to lift yourself up by your bootstraps and if you try they'll do their damnedest to pull you back down.

[Sevo]

"Jews are some of the most-victimized people in history but they decided to man up and stop being victims which makes the perpetually aggrieved victim class look bad."

Had not considered that; THX.

[Nardz]

Jerrys hit the nail on the head.
It's one reason why Europe still hates the Jews, but even more so why the US Left does. Progressives cannot stand that Israel both stands up for itself and is proud of a strong national identity.
The only "good jew" is a self loathing and/or cooperative jew - such as Mr. Soros, Bernie, Weinstein, Spielberg, Zucker, etc.
Netanyahu and his unapologetic nationalism? "That's baaaaaaaaad"

Remember also that the far Left has been hitched to Islamism from the very beginning of modern terrorism- see the Marxist groups that worked with the PLO from the 60s/70s on

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

The authoritarian right-wing bigot perspective is always fascinating. Thanks, Nardz.

[Sevo]

Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland|10.27.18 @ 10:32PM|#
"The authoritarian right-wing bigot perspective is always fascinating. Thanks, Nardz."

Lefty, murderous perspective never is, asshole.
Fuck off.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Losing the culture war and watching whites slide into minority status, with the associated loss of unearned privilege, appears to have embittered can't-keep-uppers such as Sevo.

The good news is that America becomes less rural, less white, less religious, less backward, and less intolerant each day, as old-timey conservatives take their stale thinking to the grave and are replaced by younger, better Americans in our electorate.

Keep making America great, elderly wingnuts!

[XM]

You still waiting for that demographic wave to change America into the next socialist paradise, Kirkland? Your team has been waiting for that since 2000.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

I would observe that good things come to those who wait, but in this case that is inapt, because my side has been winning the culture war for more than a half-century. So . . . no need to wait.

But America's electorate trends toward the liberal-libertarian side every day, and unless conservatives comes up with a machine that mass-produces uneducated, intolerant, stale-thinking, easily frightened, superstition, stale-thinking, elderly, southern white males, the predictable consequences of this change in America's electorate is worth waiting to enjoy.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

I would observe that good things come to those who wait

In our case, that would be you and yours getting the full Rosenberg.

[DWB]

Jews are some of the most-victimized people in history but they decided to man up and stop being victims which makes the perpetually aggrieved victim class look bad. Taking personal responsibility for yourself is anathema for the grievance mongers...

+ INFINITY!!!!!!!

[Eddy]

It's been so consistent - even with the pre-Christian pagans - that I'm guessing that it's pretty much a constant in human experience - part of the prejudice against "middleman minorities" if I had to guess. (see also SE Asian Chinese, etc.)

I wonder if Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership will start making inroads after this, or whether the opposite lesson will be absorbed?

[DajjaI]

I follow many Jewish accounts on Facebook and Twitter, both left and right, and they all agree that the solution is gun control. They are eviscerating Trump for his suggestion that we need more armed guards. They say that is 'blaming the victim'. Of course the solution is neither. Instead it's the same as with all these other attacks - don't overreact, because infringing rights or hypermilitarization will only encourage the copycats.

[Michael Ejercito]

Are these people unaware that this country already has gun control.

[croaker]

JPFO is pretty much dead.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Why is anti-Semitism part of America?

Why have some Americans targeted the Irish, Asians, Catholics, eastern Europeans, Hispanics, Italians, blacks, women, gays, Muslims, and others for hatred, discrimination, and demonization?

The bigots are always among us. They tend to be losers who blame others for their mostly self-inflicted problems. They don't win, over the long term, but they persist.

[Red Tony]

The bigots are always among us. They tend to be losers who blame other for their mostly self-inflicted problems. They don't win, over the long term, but they persist.

This may just be Kirkland's best unintentional description of himself.

[Sevo]

Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland|10.27.18 @ 10:30PM|#
"Why is anti-Semitism part of America?"

Dunno, you fucking bigot. You tell *us*.

[Rockabilly]

Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland is a charlatan who, instead of preaching love and tolerance, uses vile words directed toward his political opponents.

Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland, if you're really a minister, which I doubt, you would be compassionate toward those who you deem to be wicked.

The Jesus in the Bible preached love and understanding, even to the fallen, which means all humans. No one is perfect.

Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland, instead of condemning others, try to promote love and not hate.

I am a sinner, and have done things I'm not proud of . I have used foul language on this very website but I ask for forgiveness. I am trying to get my act together and I suggest to you, Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland, that you try to do the same.

[TuIpa]

I don't know who that person is, but they sound like a nobody.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

I am a sinner, and have done things I'm not proud of . I have used foul language on this very website but I ask for forgiveness.

You are forgiven, you dumb bastard.

[Sevo]

Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland|10.27.18 @ 10:34PM|#
"You are forgiven, you dumb bastard."

You're not, you fucking retarded asshole.

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug]

This shooter is so far right-wing anti-Semitic that Trump is a globalist Jew-lover to him.

The right has lost their fucking minds.

[Rockabilly]

Look into the mirror

[loveconstitution1789]

When buttplugger says right-wing he is describing Lefties.

Lefties tend to be violent, racist, intolerant, nanny-staters, hate the USA, socialist, hate Libertarian, hate freedom, hate individualism....

[Rebel Scum]

Collectivist ideologies, such as socialism, fascism, and nazism are patently leftwing. Try again.

[croaker]

Democratic Telefon.

[DWB]

Because it is better to laugh than to cry:

Jews on 1st:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM6yG_qwZew

[Hank Phillips]

Trump actually said sth sensible about this one. After all, the church shooter in Texas was retaliated against swiftly or damage might've been worse. The whackjob looks like an Aryan National Socialist from Central Casting, or cellmate for Robert Dear.

[Hank Phillips]

Trump actually said sth sensible about this one. After all, the church shooter in Texas was retaliated against swiftly or damage might've been worse. The whackjob looks like an Aryan National Socialist from Central Casting, or cellmate for Robert Dear.

[loveconstitution1789]

Expect much more Lefty violence once election 2018 goes really horribly for Democrats.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

But we're all in agreement, right?
Democrats are to blame for the shooting at a Jewish temple by a guy who posts on Gab about how he didn't vote for Trump because he thinks Trump is too globalist and too pro-Jewish, right? That's totally the Democrats' fault. How could it be otherwise?

[Sevo]

chemjeff radical individualist|10.28.18 @ 12:34AM|#
"But we're all in agreement, right?"

You should learn to read; it would help making you look like less of the ignoramus that you are.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

Houston, the Pigeon has landed.

This is obviously Trump's fault, right, Jeffy? You were just as upset when everyone was screaming that the bomber was all Trump's fault, right? It's so frustrating when the news cycle doesn't go team blue's way, especially after all the resources they've invested to help the narrative along.

[Sevo]

Sure you saw Musk is in the FBI target range.
The FBI is no certain agency, but we'll pretty much assume Musk put his foot in his mouth.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Please tell us all how this is the Democrats' fault. I'd love to hear your novel theory on the matter. This is all the fault of Nancy Pelosi, or Obama, or Hillary, or Bernie Sanders, or George Soros, or Chuck Schumer, or Maxine Waters, or some other bogeyman inveighed by the right, no? I am sure Rush Limbaugh will have a novel theory on how it's all the Democrats' fault on Monday. Just be sure to stay tuned so that you can hear his theory and then nod in agreement.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

I know you are just itching to blame it all on the Democrats. They are the source of all evil, right? It's all their fault. Please, tell us all how this is the Democrats' fault. I am sure you can come up with some novel and inventive theory on how an anti-Semitic asshole, who only didn't vote for Trump because he wasn't anti-Semitic enough for him, was motivated by Bernie Sanders' rhetoric or something. Please, let's hear your theory on how Nancy Pelosi is to blame. I'd love to hear this one.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

C'mon Skippy. Tell us how this is Obama's fault. After all Obama is a Kenyan Muslim Marxist Terrorist right? Surely Obama set up this asshole to murder Jews at a synagogue. That's what Muslims do right?

Actually, maybe it was Podesta who set up this guy. You can't trust that Podesta fellow. When he's not molesting children at a pizzeria, he's scheming to murder Jews. Isn't that right?

[Nardz]

Who are you talking to, jeff?
Nobody here has blamed leftists (except maybe lc, and while that's his schtick even he limited it to just calling this particular guy a leftist).
Pretty sure nobody here blamed anyone but the shooter for the shooting.
You gotta learn to distinguish between fantasy and reality, man.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

chemjeff SJW having a Hihn-style bitchfit.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

chemjeff gets really bent out of shape when mean things are said about Democrats.

[Earth Skeptic]

Hey, retards, seems like you all agree that it must be the fault of somebody or some group NOT the wacked-out guy who actually pulled the trigger. Cuz, like, people have no free agency and our understanding of the universe is driven by partisan groups and their nefarious methods to make things happen.

[Ken Shultz]

"Mr. Bowers legally owned all his weapons, having no criminal history that would have prevented him from buying them, a law-enforcement official said. He also had a concealed-carry permit."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/pi.....540653056?

"The episodes show how the perpetrators of mass acts of violence often are quite open in expressing their hatred, and sometimes their intentions, on internet platforms. That raises questions about the platforms' responsibility for detecting and acting on such hate speech before they escalate to violence."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/vi.....540724406?

Eventually, we should expect the government to start including social media checks on people as part of the background check system before okaying the purchase of a firearm.

Libertarians might understand why denying someone the exercise of their Second Amendment rights on the basis of their beliefs is an immoral, arbitrary, and unconstitutional thing to do. Meanwhile, the NSA tracks our phone calls, emails, and presumably monitors social media for hints of terrorist activity.

We already have the ability to disqualify people on the basis of their social media posts. And how many people will stand up for the Second Amendment rights of antisemites, Islamophobes, racists, homophobes, etc.? The social media giants themselves might be only too happy to cooperate. I'm not even sure the NRA would object.

[Earth Skeptic]

Well, denying Second Amendment rights by fucking with First Amendment rights would probably be the logical outcome of the current Progressive paradigm.

[Ken Shultz]

Absolutely, and it runs much like the logic of warrantless wiretapping and NSA violations of the Fourth Amendment in tracking our emails and phone calls.

There are two real restrictions on violating our rights in this way. One of them is about technology. The reason they didn't sift through all our electronic communications before 9/11 was because the primitive state of the technology and because it was prohibitively expensive. Once those things were no longer in the way, the Fourth Amendment didn't stop them from doing what they wanted to do in the name of security. They rewrote some laws and the courts reinterpreted others to make what was previously unthinkable almost completely mundane. Whether it was under the Bush administration or the Obama administration, the question was never whether the Constitution would get in the way. They decided to ask for forgiveness rather than permission, and when they were exposed, they didn't even bother asking for forgiveness. Now, mass surveillance of our communications is the new normal.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Ken Shultz, I agree with your summary. Perhaps the originalists and textualists who seem so numerous on this site will also note the accuracy of what you say. If they do, will they then join Madison in his skepticism about mere parchment barriers as guardians of rights?

By the way, with regard to the case of Sayoc, it's interesting to compare the lengthy time spent trying to track down the Unabomber, with the short interval necessary to apprehend Sayoc. My guess is that the difference may be better explained by digital security archives of private communications than by the asserted fingerprint which allegedly broke the case.

[Ken Shultz]

Right now, we already have the capability to identify antisemites, homophobes, anti-abortion radicals, Islamophobes, MRAs, racists, etc. by their social media posts--and we already have the means for the government to refuse to sell people firearms through background checks. Almost everybody who wants these mass shooting to stop--including the people at the NRA--points to background checks as the answer. And the fact that this guy passed a background check doesn't mean the same thing to libertarians (background checks don't work) that it does to others (background checks don't work).

[Naaman Brown]

Well I am a long term NRA member and I do not see a greta deal of benefit from background checks.

BJS FUO
US Department of Justice
National Institute of Justice
Bureau of Justice Statistics
Firearms Use by Offenders
(Sample: nationwide sample of prison inmates who possessed a firearm during the offense for which they were imprisoned)

2004 Source of firearms possessed by state prison inmates at time of offense

11.3% Retail Purchase or trade
7.3 - Retail store
2.6 - Pawnshop
0.6 - Flea market
0.8 - Gun show

37.4% Family or friend
12.2 - Purchased or traded
14.1 - Rented or borrowed
11.1 - Other

40.0% Street/illegal source
7.5 - Theft or burglary
25.2 - Drug dealer/off street
7.4 - Fence/black market

11.2% Other source

I would point out that family or friend supplying guns to criminals are often criminals too. It will be really hard to get them and the thieves, burglars, fences, black marketeers, drug dealers, street dealers to run background checks on criminals before supplying them with guns.

[Naaman Brown]

In 1991 the percentage of firearm using offenders citing retail purchase or trade was about 21%.
In 2004 the percentage of firearm using offenders citing retail purchase or trade was less than 12%.
You could credit that to the imposition of background checks, changing the percentage of firearms using offenders acquiring guns from grey or black market from ~79% to approximately 88%.

It is a burden on the lawabiding. If I buy a gun at a store, pawnshop, or licensed dealer in Tennessee, the background check is $10. For a private sale going through a background check at a dealer, it's $30. For an internet sale, the transfer and background check fees can run $65. Set the sin tax rate high enough, you get mass evasion by everyone.

[Ken Shultz]

I appreciate that the NRA doesn't necessarily speak for all of its members. Still, after some of the last mass shootings, the NRA was calling for psychiatric history to be included in background checks more rigorously, seemed willing to throw people who've been slapped with protection orders under the bus, etc.

I'm not knocking the NRA, per se. Their mission is to protect the Second Amendment. I'm a libertarian, however, and my mission has a wider field. I care about the First Amendment and the Second Amendment and the Fourth Amendment . . . and I'm not willing to sell one or any of the others short in order to protect our Second Amendment rights.

If and when the government starts using mass shootings as an excuse to start disqualifying people from gun ownership on the basis of their beliefs, I'd rather dare them to violate our First Amendment rights than compromise one iota on the Second Amendment. Likewise, I'm not about to betray my First Amendment principles in order to save the Second Amendment either.

I suppose I should add . . . when I call myself a patriotic American, the First and Second Amendments are a big part of what I'm talking about. There are other English Commonwealth countries that don't have either one--and it shows. The First and Second Amendments are only what protects some of our most important freedoms, they're also what makes us American.

[Michael Ejercito]

A background check only checks for official court records.

[Ken Shultz]

When libertarians say that background checks don't work, we generally mean that there's no point in having them because mass shootings keep happening despite them. When others say that background checks don't work, they mean that the background checks need to be more comprehensive. Convincing others that background checks don't work certainly isn't the solution to that problem.

Properly answering that criticism is all about the second check on violations of our constitutional rights--the willingness of the American people to stand by and watch the government steamroll our constitutionally protected individual rights. It probably doesn't help us much either to stress the importance of our Second Amendment rights when we get into these arguments--which are surely coming. The time to stand up for the right of individuals to speak their minds on social media without being discriminated against by the government is right freaking now, Woodchipper Nation. And if people don't give a shit about their Fourth Amendment rights, then we need to find ways to make them care. Start with our friends and family.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Can you say a bit more about Woodchipper Nation?

[Ken Shultz]

Are you being facetious?

If serious, start here:

http://www.popehat.com/2015/06.....e-thought/

The U.S. Attorney's Office, by way of Preet Bahara, came after some of the commenters here for making innocuous comments about an especially obtuse public official, one of which he went after for containing the word "woodchipper". Many of us temporarily changed our names to contain the word "woodchipper" in protest and as a show of unity. Why not arrest us all, Mr. Bahara?

He was simply trying to make a name for himself by intimidating libertarian commenters. That's what I was referring to when I wrote, "The time to stand up for the right of individuals to speak their minds on social media without being discriminated against by the government is right freaking now, Woodchipper Nation."

[vek]

Yup. And soon enough, if they find out you DIDN'T vote for Hillary in 2016, or that you once said you liked war movies on Facebook, or you think Rosie O'Donnell is ugly or whatever... Well, they'll just have to fail your background check, because you MAY be a lunatic who will commit mass murder!

The thing is, a lot of stuff that's around the "edges" of racism, homophobia, immigration, etc are factual. One can surely be a loon about stuff, but there are many relevant things to discuss that the prog clique deems EVIL, and yet are simply facts. If they ever get the power to delve into things beyond actual criminal convictions or being put in a mental ward... God help us. If they have broad discretion, all the crazy stuff above, and more WILL be used to deny people their 2A rights.

[Michael Ejercito]

Not just 2A rights either.

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug]

As noted the last few days - right wing terrorism has become a serious problem.

https://goo.gl/ikn1fc

[Sevo]

Sarah Palin's Buttplug|10.28.18 @ 9:49AM|#
"As noted the last few days - right wing terrorism has become a serious problem."

Complete list of turd's posts which are not lies:

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug]

US terror attacks are increasingly motivated by right-wing views
By Luiz RomeroOctober 24, 2018

An analysis of the Global Terrorism Database by researchers at the University of Maryland published in 2017 shows a "sharp increase" in the share of attacks by right-wing extremists, from 6% in the 2000s to 35% in the 2010s. The share of attacks by religious extremists also increased, from 9% to 53% between the two decades.

Meanwhile, the share of attacks by left-wing terrorists and environmentalist extremists dropped from 64% in the 2000s to 12% in the 2010s.

[vek]

Bullshit!

They can't possibly be counting all the instances of ANTIFA going out rioting, lighting cars on fire, destroying property etc as terrorism if they're going to claim left wing terrorism has declined. But those things very much do count. And it's not just in the USA either. ANTIFA burned I think it was dozens of cars in a single event in Hamburg IIRC.

[bevis the lumberjack]

1. This study demonstrates how political violence is cyclical - the side which is currently the more violent swings back and forth. For example, in the '50s and early '60s the right committed more political violence than the left, but by the late '60s through the '70s, the pendulum had swung back to the left dominating political violence. If it is swinging right now - and I'm personally not convinced - it'll swing back the other direction before you know it.

2. There's a built in bias, whether intentional or not I don't know, related to this study as to how the author defines "terrorism". For example, the most violent single group since Trump's election has been the Antifa, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the author of this study does not count their brand of violence as terrorism.

Neither side has a monopoly on political violence. Those like you that point at the other side and yell "see, they're the violent ones!!!" are the worst sort of hypocrites.

[vek]

You talking about my post? I never claimed the right doesn't commit violence, just that those numbers seems tilted, given what I know about things going on in the world today. The cyclical nature is true though... All I have to say is that the left had better watch out, because if the right REALLY starts committing political violence, they're going to be in for a world of hurt.

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug]

I've read many ultra right nutjob comments on Bratfart.com concerning Trump's coziness with the International Jewry. This shooter might have been one of those commentors.

[Ken Shultz]

I don't think anybody cares about anything you've read. I doubt anybody goes to your links anymore either--other than to see what you're lying about.

Your posts are farts in an elevator. You stink.

[Nardz]

Well said, Ken

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug]

I don't think anybody cares about anything you've read.

You partisan Republicans don't want to acknowledge how violent the right has become.

https://goo.gl/EMpcBn

https://goo.gl/ikn1fc

[vek]

Calling the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer terrorist groups is WAY too LOL.

If you know anything about the REAL right wing extremists, who are quite rare... Both those groups are seen as SUPER CUCKS by them. Because they are. ZOMG the Proud Boys started up as a group to DEFEND people at right wing events, because people were being assaulted by ANTIFA... So I guess DEFENDING yourself makes you a terrorist now, at least if you're on the right?

Fuck off.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Take it to Gab, vek . . . you still have a few hours before your betters shut it down.

[vek]

LOL

So arrogant. I don't think Gab will be getting shut down anytime soon, not that I post there or anything. I've written off social media pretty much entirely. But if they do shut it down, something will replace it.

But back to you being arrogant... I wonder, Rev., if you will be so arrogant when you're getting your teeth kicked in by some right wing extremist? Which is exactly what will happen if lunatics like you keep pushing. If you try to shut down places like Gab, suppress peoples views, and so on. You getting curb stomped is EXACTLY where that type of thinking will lead. So, ya know, just consider the repercussions your actions may have there Rev.

[Ken Shultz]

Nobody gives a shit, Shrike.

You're a laughing stock.

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug]

You partisan Republicans don't want to acknowledge how violent the right has become.

[vek]

If you think they're violent now... Wait until they're ACTUALLY violent.

For the most part the only violence committed by the right in recent years has been defending themselves from leftists.

If the right starts properly initiating violence, you better watch out. As I have heard it said, when the left gets riled up and commits violence, you end up with a disorganized mob destroying stuff... But when the right commits violence, it is an organized group marching in the streets. Mobs usually don't do none to well against organized and disciplined folks...

Especially the way things have played out in the modern western world where 95% of leftists are soy boy pussies who think guns are icky. The modern left is the weakest, most effeminate bunch of people I have ever seen in my life. They stand zero chance if the right ever decides to use violence to force its will on them. And we may well be approaching the point where the right has to, to keep civilization from collapsing.

As BTO once said "You ain't seen nothin' yet!"

[bevis the lumberjack]

"I go to where the crazies of one side tend to congregate and use what I read there to astutely conclude that they're all crazy".

[Echospinner]

I expect our congregation and rabbi to respond soon in some way.

There is security. Similar to this congregation. On high holy days there are off duty police. The schul has arrangements and works with the city and church next door.

If you drove by the building you would not even know it was jewish. Looks like any community center.

So the deal is now that I need to bring a pistol in the blue velvet talit bag to go pray, church, synagogue, or just go to the grocery or movie theater. That is liberty right? This is freedom.

[vek]

These incidents are ultra rare, so I wouldn't get too freaked out about it... But it never hurts to carry a piece.

As far as being Jewish, let us not forget the guy who shot up a black church, OR the guy who went and shot up a white church because they were white too. Crazies are crazies.

[Echospinner]

The guy who shot up a black church. Wow you are really informed.

Dylan Roof killed nine people who showed up to church. They have names, families. You don't care. It is all about left or right trump or Hillary for you.

David Rosenthal, 54, of Squirrel Hill (Cecil's brother)
Cecil Rosenthal, 59, of Squirrel Hill
Richard Gottfried, 65, of Ross Township
Jerry Rabinowitz, 66, of Edgewood Borough
Irving Younger, 69, of Mt. Washington, City of Pittsburgh
Daniel Stein, 71, of Squirrel Hill
Joyce Fienberg, 75, of Oakland, City of Pittsburgh
Bernice Simon, 84, of Wilkinsburg
Sylvan Simon, 86, of Wilkinsburg (Bernice's husband)
Melvin Wax, 88, of Squirrel Hill
Rose Mallinger, 97, of Squirrel Hill

[vek]

I feel sorry for people that have bad stuff happen to them... ANYTHING, like getting cancer, or getting hit by a bus, or shot by a drive by. People dying all of a sudden always sucks, and is always sad.

But yeah, it's in an abstract kind of way. I'm not a woman, so I don't get all teary eyed about it, because I don't know these people. I HAVE known people who were murdered personally actually, and I got PROPER sad about them... Because I actually knew them. But I'm not going to shed literal tears over people I don't know, why would I?

The fact is, these stupid mass shootings are blown way out of proportions. More people get shot by black/Hispanic gangs in any given weekend than are killed in a whole year by all mass shooters... They're mostly killing other minorities too, which apparently is supposed to make me extra sad, because their lives are worth more than a white persons now for some reason? So am I supposed to try over every one of them too?

I have perspective on this stuff, so PARDON ME for remaining objective here. If you're Jewish I guess maybe this has hit you harder mentally... So sorry it's done that to you. I didn't get extra worked up when the white church got shot. But as I said these things are very rare, so not really worth losing too much sleep over.

[vek]

Other than the fact that this is fucked up... This guy is an idiot! If he's a rabid right wing anti-Semite, he should have known to not go shoot up a "conservative synagogue" which I am imagining means Orthodox as well?

Orthodox Jews tend to lean VERY strongly to the right. Religious Jews in general ARE NOT the stereotypical hard core leftists this guy probably hates.

If he really wanted to get at the root of the types of Jews he thinks are so horrible, he should have just gone to a movie premiere in Hollywood or something! THOSE are the "bad" Jews after all!

Wait, is it too soon still?

[Echospinner]

Conservative Judaism here does not mean politics.

Right left is not relevant.

[vek]

If you're Jewish, as is implied by a post above, I would imagine you know more on the subject overall... And I know they're not DIRECTLY referring to politics by stating it like that...

But I actually watch a YouTuber who is an orthodox Jew who talks about Jewish issues, and Jewish politics a lot. From both his many statements on the subject, and many other things I have read, orthodox Jews tend to NOT be the left leaning ones.

70% or so of Jews in the USA are leftists, but almost all the ones that aren't tend to be conservative/orthodox Jews supposedly. So my point was, these aren't the types of Jews that do the things that presumably pissed this guy off... Those are mostly the secular leftist types. More than half the people he probably shot weren't leftists, given the context.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Trying to reason with right-wingers?

You might as well yell at a lamp.

Not one of those new-fangled lamps, though -- the ones that respond usefully to verbal command, or to clapping. Those things seem to act intelligently at least occasionally.

Carry on, clingers.

[bevis the lumberjack]

"Trying to reason with right-wingers?"

As if you're the epidemy of reasonableness.

Your online persona belies everything you claim to stand for...??..

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

As if you're the epidemy

Epidemy? Is that good or bad?

I don't speak deplorable.

[bevis the lumberjack]

Oh, no! I misspelled a word!!

Whatever dude. I bet I did more with my degree - in one of the STEM fields - than you did with yours, assuming you even have one.

And you may not speak deplorable, but you certainly act it.

[vek]

From what I've heard, he's some high school drop out or something? As much as he talks about being everybody else on here's betters, I'd wager almost everybody he rips on is has more credentials, a higher IQ, makes more money... And actually aren't morons like him either. Since he clearly doesn't seem to know much about much. Which is why he just has his cut and past NPC insults.

I'm sorry I probably make at least twice as much money as you Rev... But it's okay, I don't hate everybody just for being uneducated, backwards, people like you do.

[Mock-star]

Why am I not the least bit surprised that the Rev equates intelligence with complying with commands?

[Uncle Adolf's Gas and Grill]

I'm just waiting for the Reason article explaining to us that Gab being deplatformed by it's pay processors and hosting service is a perfectly legitimate example of the free market in action. A free market, of course, is established when willing buyers and sellers are prevented from conducting transactions by middlemen with a monopoly.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Quit whining, clinger. Take your authoritarian, big-government fantasies someplace where people might care about them. Gab, maybe. It probably has a couple of hours remaining before it finds it business model is incompatible with existence.

[buybuydandavis]

The Left plays relentless in group preference and out group attack.

We have anti discrimination laws for every category in life, except the one thing that really matters - political power.

[vek]

Oh yeah, they'll defend the hell out of the leftist power structure destroying them if it goes that way.

What they don't realize is there are times of peace, when you need to hold things to certain standards... And there are times of war, when martial law type actions may be warranted. If we aren't at the "martial law" point proverbially speaking, we're certainly close. Stuff that wouldn't have been acceptable 40 years ago may be REQUIRED if we're to save the western world from these crazy leftists.

[buybuydandavis]

Two points for Boehm.

He confined his reporting to actual reporting, instead of political spin.

[Michael Ejercito]

The solution is obvious.

In fact, I came up with the solution over twenty years ago.

I reiterated this solution ten years ago, in the aftermath of another tragic shooting.

http://blackpoliticalthought.w.....alifornia/

It is clear that conventional law enforcement is not up to the job of protecting people. If you are going after a rabid junkyard dog, you do not go in there with ASPCA rules; you take the leash off your own bigger, meaner dog. What we needed then, and what we need now, is Los Angeles to be placed under martial law, to be administered by the Army. Soldiers would be given immunity from state and local laws and they would have authority to conduct searches, detain people, and do other things that they see fit to deal with this crisis on our streets.

We are at war here.

Why are we not deploying troops?

why are we not taking the leash off?