State of the Union

The Prejudicial Cynicism of Trump's SOTU Talk About MS-13

Conflating illegal immigration in general with criminal gangs is wrong, and will lead to bad, wasteful, damaging immigration policy.

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President Trump's use of the parents of children murdered in Long Island by members of the El Salvador-based criminal gang MS-13 as a classic SOTU audience prop got him a long standing ovation tonight. To show sympathy and solidarity with grieving parents, that's fine.

MS-13 wiki

But Trump did not do this in order to show sympathy for specific grieving parents. As his comments made clear, he did it in order to conflate the millions of people who come to America, many without jumping through nearly impossible legal hoops and mostly to work, with murderers.

As Trump said tonight, after inviting the grieving parents to stand up:

Six members of the savage MS-13 gang have been charged with [their children's] murders. Many of these gang members took advantage of glaring loopholes in our laws to enter the country as illegal, unaccompanied, alien minors….I want you to know that 320 million hearts are right now breaking for you. We love you. Thank you…..While we cannot imagine the depths of that kind of sorrow, we can make sure that other families never have to endure this kind of pain.

Tonight I am calling on Congress to finally close the deadly loopholes that have allowed MS-13 and other criminal gangs to break into our country. We have proposed new legislation that will fix our immigration laws and support our ICE and border patrol agents. These are great people, these are great, great people that work so hard in the midst of such danger, so that this can never happen again.

This description of any perceived looseness in American law enforcement regarding immigration as about allowing murderers to "break into our country" is not an accurate reflection of the realities of immigration. Trump's only purpose in this rhetorical move was to use sympathy for grieving parents to politically energize an expensive, tyrannical attempt to disrupt millions of innocent (of anything but violating immigration paperwork laws) lives by illegitimately conflating their "crimes" with murderers.

While MS-13 members certainly have committed murders in the U.S., it's not generally considered intelligent and measured to shape national policy affecting millions of immigrants (as well as the many millions of non-immigrant Americans who buy from, hire, sell to, or rent to them) by thinking only of the handfuls of violent criminals who share nothing but being illegal immigrants with those millions. The Trump administration loves using MS-13 as sinister poster boys for his restrictionist immigration policy, and Attorney General Jeff Sessions mistakenly attempted last year to finger them as major players in illegal drug smuggling.

But in fact, as The Atlantic explained last year:

like other gangs in the U.S., at the end of the last decade its reach and violence waned. In fact, the same day Trump tweeted about MS-13, the U.S. Justice Department released a fact sheet that said state and federal authorities had "severely disrupted the gang within certain targeted areas of the U.S. by 2009 and 2010."….anthropologist Jorja Leap says the gang's power has declined….[she] who spent 10 years studying MS-13 and wrote a book on the gang. She told me that outside of a few high-profile murders, the gang's recent return to the national psyche is political opportunism. …But statistically, Trump's fixation is hard to justify. If you measure the gang's threat by recruitment, more recent Department of Justice figures say it has about 6,000 members nationwide….It also seems to make up only a fraction of deported criminals. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's division that focuses on gangs, Homeland Security Investigations, deported 114,434 individuals last year, according to data given to CNN. MS-13 made up only 429 of those….

….Sessions, speaking to a Justice Department crime task force in April, said MS-13 in El Salvador "has been sending both recruiters and members to regenerate gangs that previously had been decimated, and smuggling members across the border as unaccompanied minors."

Except, there's no data to support such claims. Insight Crime, an organized-crime investigative nonprofit, explained "there is no evidence that the migratory patterns of gang members are different than those of any other group of migrants, or that they are moving in accordance with a grand plan forged by the MS13's Salvadoran leadership to revitalize the organization." Quite simply, Insight wrote, "there is no study by federal agencies or academic institutions that proves that there is a significant number of gang members among these minors." This is backed up by the recent Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, where Customs and Border Protection Acting Chief Carla Provost said that of the 250,000 unaccompanied minors apprehended since 2011, only 56 were suspected or confirmed of being affiliated with MS-13.

As Virginia-based political scientist Michael Paarlberg pointed out regarding MS-13 last year for intelligent comparison in The Washington Post:

As the head of the Northern Virginia Gang Task Force has stated, "the vast majority of their crimes are gang-on-gang," echoing Senate testimonyby Montgomery County, Md.'s police chief that most of their violence is motivated by "perceived or actual rival gang affiliations," as well as members turning informant, or potential members resisting recruitment efforts.

For all the hype in the governor's race, MS-13 has been associated with three murders in Virginia this year, and two of the victims were MS-13 members themselves. To put that into perspective, there were 480 homicides in Virginia in 2016, and nine Virginians died in traffic accidents over Fourth of July weekend alone.

Immigrants to America, legal or illegal, writ large do not represent a disproportionate and dangerous criminal threat in general, and only the tiniest fraction are associated with specific colorful murderous criminal gangs. Trump's references to MS-13 tonight were a cynical and prejudicial attempt to make Americans think otherwise and support his obsession with wasting American treasure on a futile and pointless attempt to stop people from coming here to work and be part of the overall economic fabric of the United States as workers, consumers, and taxpayers. Parents of murdered children deserve standing ovations, but Trump's immigration madness does not.

NEXT: Trump Promotes 'Right to Try' Experimental Treatments for Terminally Ill Patients in SOTU Address

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    1. It’s a lot more obnoxious than just lowering the penalty for street-shitters–low-level assaults were also downgraded so Mayor Hancock’s pets wouldn’t be deported for beating their wives.

    2. I saw that the other day. Such fucking bullshit. IMO ALL illegal immigrants should be deported, criminal record or not. But anybody who is a homeless bum, who shits on the street in public, definitely doesn’t need to be allowed to stay. They’re obviously not a useful or productive member of society like a lot of the hard working illegals are, so minor stuff like that is in fact a small, but not entirely useless, indicator that they’re definitely NOT the kind of immigrants we need in 21st century America.

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  1. If you believe in ‘addiction’ or that NK is a safe space, please don’t have more kids. It will not end well.

  2. Do you get the feeling we are all being played by both sides?
    But for what ends?

    1. Power and prestige. You heard it here first.

    1. Some things never change.

    2. Not the greatest example, since federal power and spending grew massively after they poured in.

      Reminds me of open borders aficionados telling us to welcome immigrants like the Indians welcomed the Pilgrims. Yeah, great idea.

    3. And the truth is that a lot of those complaints were real at the time! The flood of Italians, Irish, Germans etc DID suppress wages, cause crime, change voting demographics etc. The Italian mafia ring any bells? There was no English organized crime syndicate to speak of. How about immigrant laborers being called in to bust unions? I’m no union fan, but if I was a worker being undercut like that at the time I’d probably have been pretty pissed. Ditto for immigrants disproportionally voting for FDR. If we’d had fewer immigrants perhaps America might have never started down the road to socialism. Interesting question to ponder given the obvious voting patterns of recent immigrants…

      That stuff only became un-true after generations of them were here, intermarried with older established native born folks, and completely integrated. Then we had a magical “golden age” where everybody was pretty happy, getting along, more or less believed in all the same major ideals, and things were generally peachy keen. It’s not a coincidence. A constant influx means constant tenuousness and fighting. Hence slow and steady wins the race, big floods of people cause problems between groups as evidenced by the entirety of human history.

    4. Yes, Progressives have a history of bigoted immigration policies. Teddy Roosevelt preserved federal lands instead of letting immigrants settle on them. Then Wilson had soldiers take culturally biased tests to determine their military ranks in World War I. Those test results were the data used to drum up support for restrictions on immigration in the 1920’s. Franklin Roosevelt chose to keep immigration restrictions in place during Holocaust.

  3. Undocumented Immigrants, U.S. Citizens, and Convicted Criminals in Arizona

    Quotes:
    Using newly released detailed data on all prisoners who entered the Arizona state prison from January 1985 through June 2017, we are able to separate non-U.S. citizens by whether they are illegal or legal residents. These data do not rely on self-reporting by criminals. Undocumented immigrants are at least 142% more likely to be convicted of a crime than other Arizonans. They also tend to commit more serious crimes and serve 10.5% longer sentences, more likely to be classified as dangerous, and 45% more likely to be gang members than U.S. citizens.

    Young convicts are especially likely to be undocumented immigrants. While undocumented immigrants from 15 to 35 years of age make up slightly over two percent of the Arizona population, they make up about eight percent of the prison population. Even after adjusting for the fact that young people commit crime at higher rates, young undocumented immigrants commit crime at twice the rate of young U.S. citizens. These undocumented immigrants also tend to commit more serious crimes.

    If undocumented immigrants committed crime nationally as they do in Arizona, in 2016 they would have been responsible for over 1,000 more murders, 5,200 rapes, 8,900 robberies, 25,300 aggravated assaults, and 26,900 burglaries.

    1. Yup. Everybody who trots out the “immigrants commit less crime!” trope is not separating LEGAL from ILLEGAL immigrants.

      They’re a demographic that is basically destined to go into crime at higher rates than the average American, because they have all the conditions that make natives turn to crime, as well as reasons on top of.

      They’re mostly poor. Mostly uneducated. They don’t speak the native language, AKA harder to get a job. They come from countries with lower standards for social norms, and far less crime enforcement. On and on.

      All of the above generally lead to higher crime rates. Native born blacks are the only ones who can give illegal immigrants a run for the money in crime stats. If you compare the illegal immigrant crime stats to white crime stats they’re VASTLY higher, just like stats for native born Hispanics and blacks.

      1. Poverty and education are actually more weakly correlated with criminality than race but we’re supposed to ignore that because it’s inconvenient to the narrative. At the same time as we blame poverty and education for crime so that we can excuse blacks of any accountability for their problems we are supposed to pretend that pig ignorant migrant farm workers illiterate in both Spanish and English are unaffected by poverty or education.

        1. Truth. But there are still strong correlations. Poor black folks commit crimes at higher rates than middle class black folks. Poor white folks commit crime at higher rates than middle class white folks. And so on. But why poor white folks or Hispanics commit less crime than wealthier/more educated black folks… Well that’s the subject that can’t be discussed. There are logical explanations if one googles the subject…

      2. AND, their very presence here demonstrates a proclivity to break our laws. Don’t leave that out.

      3. Yup. Everybody who trots out the “immigrants commit less crime!” trope is not separating LEGAL from ILLEGAL immigrants.

        What’s worse is that they don’t account for the legal children of these immigrants, who commit crime at 12 times the rate of the general populace…

        Legal immigrants watch what they do carefully because they can be sent home. Their children have no fear of this, and so they behave just like the savages in their homelands do.

        1. Yes, it’s scarcely surprising legal immigrants have a good record of being law abiding, since they were selected for that very trait in the immigration vetting process, and as you say, are subject to deportation if they’re not law abiding before naturalization.

          And it’s not surprising that illegal immigrants have a bad record, since their defining characteristic is a crime.

          What I want to know, even if you’re going to distinguish M-13 from illegal immigrants in general, is how you stop them from entering while not securing the border to the “innocent’ illegals can get in. You can’t! Open borders means no control over who enters on ANY basis.

          1. It’s true that by nature legal ones are selected for law-abidingness. However, that doesn’t explain the explosion of violent criminality in their children…

            I’m with you on securing the border. I’m not sure a wall is the right way, but whatever. At this point, it’s a trifle in expense. We could just cut foreign aid for a year and build 5 of them.

            1. Explosion is relative. What I’m reading is that legal immigrants, unsurprisingly given that they were vetted, have a lower crime rate than native Americans as a group. But their children have a crime rate “explodes” to the national average for natives. Not better, not worse, they’ve assimilated the native crime rate.

              Crime rises among second-generation immigrants as they assimilate

              1. It’s above the average, and it is drastically above the average if you remove them from the data. They skew the average up. This becomes a lot more obvious if you break it down by race / origin and stop trying to claim that Koreans aren’t any different than Mexicans who aren’t any different than Sub-Saharan Africans who aren’t any different than Europeans.

            2. Fact is that there are multiple reasons. For blacks and hispanics part of the reason is that their kids get ghettoized by the native born thugs. I grew up in Cali and saw this happen a thousand times with Mexican kids I went to school with.

              But other cultural issues play in, as do non politically correct facts like IQ distributions… If you specifically import uneducated people you’re sampling from the lower rungs of the IQ spectrum almost exclusively, which is the exact demographic of illegal immigrants, and IQ correlates strongly to criminal rates. That their parents might have been decent low IQ people doesn’t matter since their kids will likely deviate to statistical norms, which is to say far higher crime rates. This is why the children of legal immigrant doctors tend to go on to be successful in a single generation, but not the kids of janitors. It’s all painfully obvious and logical. But somehow progs think an 85 IQ immigrant is supposed to magically become a doctor… cuz… feels!!! Or something.

              1. I actually agree with the IQ points.

                The problem isn’t just progs who think that 85 IQ and lower immigrants will magically become doctors. One only need look at Reason to realize that this completely false idea is alive and well in the libertarian party. “Why don’t those factory workers just retrain to become IT Specialists?” The answer is obviously because most of them can’t. They just don’t have the intellect for it. It’s not a judgement of “oh these people are lazy/bad” but a realization that a lot of things are just out of the reach of a substantial number of people.

                1. Yup. I get why people don’t want to accept that there are racial differences in average IQ… It’s a BIG fat bit of the most un PC shit you can imagine… The evidence is strong that it is a thing, but there are still questions to be answered. BUT it is 100% accepted that INDIVIDUAL IQ is between 50-80% heritable from your parents. It’s varied by study, but it’s at least half. IQ correlates to financial success, crime rates, divorce rates… Basically everything most people consider good are better in people with higher IQs.

                  It is also known that people in low skill tasks, with no education, tend to have lower IQs. So why it is at all controversial to point this out when considering who is allowed to immigrate is ridiculous. We’re basically importing the equivalent of nothing but janitor class people. Most of them, and all their progeny, will literally not have the mental capacity to advance beyond menial labor or perhaps semi skilled trade jobs. It’s literally impossible.

                  But yeah, the way people talk about how factory workers should retrain to be software engineers or whatever is ridiculous. Probably 5% or less of those people have the mental capacity to do so. I don’t hate people for not being geniuses, they’re usually good people, a lot of my best friends aren’t bright, but how journalists write about this stuff is super detached from objective reality.

      4. “immigrants commit less crime!” (*)

        (*) If we ignore all the immigration-related crime (8 U.S. Code ? 1325, 8 U.S. Code ? 1324), document fraud crimes, identity-theft crimes, tax fraud, conspiracy to commit [employment, tax, minimum wage] fraud (with their employers in under-the-table cash jobs), welfare fraud…

        1. And local violations like housing code (too many unrelated residents in one unit), driving without a license, driving without insurance…

          1. Oh my goodness. I was pro immigration until I learned that they might be working for cash, not paying taxes, driving without a government issued ID, and VIOLATING BUILDING CODES! It’s enough to turn a libertarian into a radical statist like you. Thanks for the insights.

            1. Well we might rail against those things in principle… And I do… But I’ll tell you what, if I’m having to pay out the ass for this bloated government I sure and fuck want to make sure other people are not scamming the system. Make them pay until they’re pissed enough to vote it down too.

              And it’s all fun and games to think about 15 Mexicans in a 3 bedroom house… Until they move in next door, with their 7 beat up cars, half of which are parked on the lawn, chickens in the back yard, etc. This is half the reason that these upper middle class progs don’t get it. They don’t have this shit happening in THEIR neighborhood like a working class white or black guy does. They have the Indian programmer guy move in, and then can’t understand why so many people don’t appreciate the immigrants, because he’s such a nice guy with his Prius and his nice wife and single child!

              I live in a neighborhood in Seattle now where the newbs are literally Indian programmers, but when I was a kid in Cali I lived where it was the 15 Mexicans. It’s not that those things should be illegal or anything, but they’re not preferable either.

  4. Parents of murdered children deserve standing ovations

    Why? Doesn’t seem like a great accomplishment.

  5. The past week saw many asking if he would reach out to unify America. Nope, he spoke again to only his goobers, with many dog whistles for the alt-right. American unity means uniting behind our Glorious Leader.

    The authoritarian mentality now dominates the party of Goldwater and Reagan. As progressives kick their ass, and nobody defends individual liberty and achievement on the national stage. Making America Grate.

    1. American unity means uniting behind our Glorious Leader.

      Only when a Democrat is in office.

      Progressives like you are still losing though you stupid old bitch. You’ll die from your senile dementia out in the streets eating cat food in Trump’s ‘murica. Lol.

      1. Typical Trumpster bully. (yawn)

        1. Typical liberal bloviator. (yawn, snore)

          1. Behold the bloviating bully, UnrepentantCurmudgeon|

            Typical liberal bloviator. (yawn, snore)

            Why do you bigots repeatedly make asses of yourselves. It’s NOT just liberals who think you’re wacko.

            Ready.?

            This is the web archive of my published political writing. Check my “liberal” views on Taxes, Health Care and New Federalism. (snort)

            My Campaign Interview, State Insurance Commissioner

            Campaign theme: Freedom works!

            1. There are two prices involved: drugs and insurance. Deregulating health insurance will greatly increase the number of insured families. But drug prices would be beyond my control, and another candidate seems to agree. He would form nongovernmental buying co-ops. Great idea, but why must we elect him first?

            2. Deregulate. Open your Yellow Pages. Compare the number of health insurers with the number of auto and home insurers. Then ask yourself which insurance is the most highly regulated – but offers the fewest choices, with out-of-control prices. As you can see, over-regulation is hazardous to your health.

            Anything else you’d care to screw up?

            1. I’ve read some of your stuff before. You’re actually kind of sane sometimes when you’re not on this site apparently. But on here you just freak out endlessly about a whole lot of nothing. If you listen to actual white nationalists they constantly complain that it’s too bad Trump isn’t really one of them. He’s not. He isn’t for open borders for the tons of logical reasons that aren’t race specific. That the problematic people happen to be mostly from shithole countries, and happen to be brown, isn’t his fault. If Nigeria were filled to the brim with programmers and engineers wanting to come here I’m pretty sure he’d be fine with it.

              1. Why do you keep denying PROOF?
                PLUS, NONE of your Trumpster ass-kissing has ANYTHING to do with this thread,

                . If you listen to actual white nationalists they constantly complain that it’s too bad Trump isn’t really one of them. He’s not. He isn’t for open borders for the tons of logical reasons that aren’t race specific. That the problematic people happen to be mostly from shithole countries, and happen to be brown, isn’t his fault. If Nigeria were filled to the brim with programmers and engineers wanting to come here I’m pretty sure he’d be fine with it.

                WHAT IN HELL ARE YOU BABBLING ABOUT???

                MOST shamefully, you denied ABSOLUTE proof that Trump is full of shit on who launched the violence in Charlottesville.
                https://reason.com/blog/2018/01…..nt_7115547

                Left – Right = Zero

                1. Hihn, I don’t even know what to say. If you won’t watch unedited videos of Unite The Right, and see with your own eyes BOTH sides being violent I don’t know what to say. Surprise surprise, Nazis AND Communists were both violent! Who woulda thought?!

                  As for Trump… Like I said. Read some Alt-Right websites, or listen to their videos on YouTube. They tell you EXACTLY what they’re thinking in their videos. And they constantly moan about how it sucks that Trump isn’t an actual white nationalist. Because his actions are NOT what they, as actual white nationalists, want. He’s not some “Everybody is exactly the same and interchangeable! The children of Somali dirt farmers will be rocket scientists and doctors, every single one of them! Gender doesn’t exist!” progressive uber PC moron… But he’s not an actual hardcore racist. If he is racist at all it’s in a very small, soft, subconscious level. He’s not “their guy” he just happens to agree on some stuff around the edges. Like how Hillary isn’t the preference for actual communists, but they’d take her over Trump because there is SOME shared ground.

                  Get back on your meds bro. You’re killing me.

    2. Good God Hihn, calm down with the TDS already. There were no “dog-whistles” to people like myself. I’d know, because I’d have heard them.

      1. As a general rule, the people who complain about them are themselves the “dogs”.

        People who rave about “dog whistles” don’t really understand the function of them in discourse. Dog whistles aren’t secret meanings the other side use to communicate nasty messages in plain sight.

        Dog whistles are conversational land mines, secret meanings your side assigns to words the other side uses, with the goal of making it impossible for your own side’s members to understand, and maybe be persuaded, by the opposition’s speech. They’re intended to cause any conversation with the other side to blow up in outraged misunderstandings.

        If you hear the dog whistle, it means you’ve stepped onto a landmine your own side planted to keep you on the plantation.

          1. Remarkable, you actually thought that was responsive. What IS going on in your head, anyway?

            1. Typical Trumpster. Makes a total ass of himself.
              Screams “FAKE NEWS”
              (snort)

              1. Typical Dumbfuck Hihnsano, whines like a crybaby bitch.
                Screams “CYBERBULLIES”
                (sneeze)

            2. Brett, Michael clearly suffers from some kind of neurological disorder. In absence of a diagnosis, I would guess untested, or inadequately treated bipolar disorder. Notice how he goes through a period where he disappears from the commentariat, only to reappear and have modicum of civility at first. That doesn’t last long. As he becomes more shrill and angry, clearly spiraling into some kind of manic episode (like he is currently). The number and length of his posts also greatly increase.

              Soon he will swing in the other direction, crashing. Where he will likely disappear for a few weeks. Only to repeat the cycle later. Hopefully he has someone in his life who can force him into treatment. He lives in WA, where we have a civil commitment provision if he is adjudicated to be a threat to himself and/or others.

              Perhaps civil confinement to a mental facility is the answer for Mr. Hihn. Either way, as nasty as he is, I hope he gets the help that he needs.

          2. And the point sails right over little Mikey’s head. As usual.

            1. Hihntard’s ex-wife pointed out how little Mikey’s head was on a regular basis.

  6. How is this one iota different from Reason flogging the sob stories of the infinitesimally small minority of “Dreamers” who graduated high school and then faced the unspeakable brutality of not getting subsidized in-state tuition for college? Nothing Trump said is untrue. You just don’t like acknowledging the indisputable fact that a substantial number of those poor little innocent babies you insist on having the rest of pay to transport, house, feed and educate are murderous piece of shit thugs.

  7. Yes, MS-13 isn’t a big deal. But he’s using it to illustrate the point that NONE of those people should be here in the first place. And if they weren’t NONE of those problems would be happening. Which is all true.

    I grew up in suburban towns north of San Francisco. In my actual hometown there were more Mexicans/Blacks than whites, and there were crime issues from both of those groups, including organized gang activity. But when we moved a town over it was basically all whites and Mexicans. Older Mexicans that had been there for awhile basically all acted like white folks with a tan. I’m part beaner myself, and my 100% Mexican best friend couldn’t even speak Spanish. That was typical.

    BUT that was when the surge of illegal immigration was starting to happen. A lot of the new Mexicans were a totally different story. They were openly and militantly racist against white people, because we’re all evil racist oppressors or something… And they also were the ONLY people that were involved in any organized crime/gang stuff. In other words that lovely little suburban town wouldn’t have had a single “gang member” if it wasn’t for massive illegal immigration.

    1. It’s not that whatever little gang shit they were doing was a huge deal… It’s that it would 100% not exist at all without those types of people being allowed in. Also, it was clear to me that the speed with which they were coming in was making them behave very differently in how they integrated versus my friend, or how my Mexican ancestor likely behaved. It became more insulated, more cliquish, more militant, etc. None of those are good things.

      Trump is using a tear jerker to get a point across… That’s the kind of crap all politicians do, so why single it out as something odd? It’s normal politician BS.

    2. He’s using it to demonstrate that you need to pick and choose who can enter the country, instead of just leaving the border wide open. And it’s a good demonstration.

      1. No. We have to let these people in. The violence they bring is a trifle for us to pay in exchange for their enrichment of our culture. I mean, tacos. You like tacos right? Which would you rather have: No more Mexican food, and these kids still be alive, or let the kids die and get that delicious grub? I know I want my foreign food, and I’m willing to let in any number of murderers and rapists to get it. Mountains of dead babies is the price of cheap foreign food, and we’d be fools not to pay that.

        /Reason Staff

        1. Seriously. That is literally the main fallback progressives and open border libertarians use. OR “But we have to! We’re all immigrants you know!” Because all of the logical and practical arguments largely don’t hold water with respect to low education immigrants. It’s either our moral responsibility to make our country shittier for the feelz, or because of foreign food. I agree that tacos are great… But we don’t need 40 million Mexicans (or whatever the total of legal and illegal is now) to get tacos.

  8. Constantly ignoring the issues with illegal immigration, as Reason is wont to do, does nothing to help your cause.

    1. YOURS is the losing cause. Sorry.

      Fox News Poll: 83 percent support pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants
      86% want citizenship for dreamers
      83%f for ALL illegals working here.
      ****63% of even TRUMP voters favor a path to citizenship for Dreamers,

      1. And Trump offered the DACA+ kids a path, it’s up to the Dems to accept it.

        1. I’m sure you believe that’s true.
          LEARN his total package.

          And do the math.
          80% of Americans support a path to citizenship for Dreamers.
          only 40% support his stupid wall — so he’s trying to bully it through.
          Trump and the GOP also thought Dems would get the blame for the shutdown. Nice try, though.

          1. Again, if this was as wildly popular as you believe…why did Schumer cave so completely?

            1. The dirty little secret of polling is that you can get almost any result by phrasing the poll right, unless it’s on a topic where almost everybody has a militant opinion.

              It’s the old, “if you’re not paying for the product, you’re the product” principle. The only polls you should really trust are the polls you paid for in some way, The ones you get to read for free?

              Somebody paid for that poll, with the aim of changing your opinion by making you think you’re out of step with the majority.

            2. Again, if this was as wildly popular as you believe…why did Schumer cave so completely?

              It IS wildly popular. And you’re also wrong about him caving.

          2. you are an idiot. Please do tell us about the “total package”

            1. you are an idiot.

              That sets the tone of my response.

              1) Why do you — perhaps the only person on earth – INSIST that Trump has proposed the “clean” DACA bill (that alone) that he promised Senator Feinstein he’d support ,.. on live TV .. thus he’s NOT the cowardly flip-flopper everyone else has reported (except the wacky right)

              2) Did you miss your Exalted Leader’s State of the Union? He announced FOUR pillars, not the ONE pillar that triggered your public blunder.

              3) YOU SAY HE DID NOT DEMAND A WALL???

              Anything else?

              1. Ah, Hihn is back. He’s stopped with the fake rude noises and gone back to bold-faced type. I like it if for no other reason than it makes it easy to pass his comments over.

                1. UnrepentantCurmudgeon,
                  Only in self-defense of aggression, thug. Like your own massive screwup was ridiculed here
                  https://reason.com/blog/2018/01…..nt_7115867

                  (snort)

                  (Boldface in defense of aggression by a cyber-bully)

      2. NPR on Harvard-Harris poll:

        Given the choice between “open borders” ? a position that no mainstream political leaders are proposing ? and a “secure border,” which is current U.S. policy, 79 percent of Americans agreed that the U.S. needs “secure borders.”

        It is true that 68 percent of Americans said they oppose “the lottery that randomly picks 50,000 people to enter the U.S. each year for greater diversity.” And in fact, even more (79 percent) favored merit-based immigration over family-based migration, based on a question asking whether “immigration priority for those coming to the U.S. should be based on a person’s ability to contribute to America as measured by their education and skills or based on a person having relatives in the U.S.”

        1. (laughing) Changing the subject is called a diversion.
          What about only 40% support for his crazy wall? And …

          Fox News Poll: 83 percent support pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants
          86% want citizenship for dreamers
          83%f want citizenship for ALL illegals working here.
          ****63% of even TRUMP voters favor a path to citizenship for Dreamers.
          Ooops

          Anything else?

          1. His point is that that isn’t the full picture. And also it depends on how it was worded. Fox actually does some pretty moderate polling stuff if you look into the way they phrase questions etc. It’s not all designed to get the response hardcore conservatives might favor.

            And the truth is that looking at the aggregate of all polls you see that people want:

            Skills based immigration.
            Less immigration in general.
            DACA kids definitely let them slide, others it varies a lot, but is not too far on either side of 50/50 in many polls.
            No diversity lottery.

            So the overall picture is some of what you want, and some of what I want. The Dems won’t offer anything but an extreme take that most Americans are opposed to. DJT is trying to get the wall, which a slight majority are against. The truth is DJTs proposal is basically exactly what most of the country wants, other than the wall. The Dems are against public opinion on everything but the wall.

            As someone who is part beaner myself, I say kick them all out. We need to send a message that this shit won’t always be tolerated. And then we need a points based system, and to stay on top of illegal stuff going forward. Then we won’t have any major immigration issues for decades, and all will be well. Maybe we can tackle actual important shit like the size of government then…

            1. Read the thread. He indeed changes the subject — a diversion from an inconvenient fact.

              Yours is just as useless, for the same reason. Plus, you’re such a shameful Trump ass-kisser that you SHAMEFULLY lied about ABSOLUTE proof that Trump is full of shit on who launched violence at Charlottesville, Or you refused to click my link.
              https://reason.com/blog/2018/01…..nt_7115547

              Left – Right = Zero

              1. Ugh. The whole day didn’t start right that second. Those guys had been trying to walk into their PERMITTED rally, and were having shit thrown at them while walking down the street, people attacking them etc. Then those guys tried to not let them pass. Should they have charged right then? Probably not. But the ANTIFA guys were doing the same shit the whole day too. I didn’t say the right bears no blame, only that both sides were acting badly.

                1. You’re wasting your time. John has abandoned any pretense of having a rational discussion. His comments have devolved into shrill name calling against anyone who doesn’t slavishly agree with him.

                  He is clearly mentally ill. So just avoid him.

                  1. I meant I say ‘Hihn’. Auto correct went an odd direction there. Also, since Hihn spams the same crap al,the time, everyone should report every one of his posts as spam.

  9. If Mexican citizens were free to cross the border by flashing a reliable ID and having it checked against a database of wanted criminals and convicted felons, then the only people sneaking through the deserts at night to avoid border checkpoints would be dangerous MS-13 gang members and others like them, who wouldn’t be able to cross at a convenient, legal checkpoint. That would make them easy to catch trying to cross illegally with minimal patrolling.

    In other words, an open border is a secure border.

    MS-13 members can easily cross our borders because of the swarm of non-violent migrant workers they can hide behind–like a school of fish. Our border with Canada is far more secure than our border with Mexico because we effectively have an open border with Canada. Canadians without felony convictions and without outstanding warrants don’t sneak across the border at night. Why would they do that when they can just cross at a legal checkpoint?

    1. This idea sounds nice Ken, but it misses some key points. First, it presupposes that the corrupt and backwards nations these people are coming from actually could manage any reliable database, and second it ignores the issues of anchor babies and welfare.

      You can kiss your libertarian dreams goodbye when you’ve imported enough people who hate liberty and prefer corruption to guarantee electoral victory for their interests. Every immigrant, legal or illegal, good or bad, needs to go if you don’t want to see them vote us into a socialist backwater and overrun our system with corruption and graft.

      1. At least you admit being a fascist.
        Very impressive

        1. Little Mikey doesn’t know what Fascism is.

        2. On further thought, it’s even more concerning that Mikey doesn’t understand how democratic elections work…

          1. On further thought, it’s even more concerning that Mikey doesn’t understand how democratic elections work..

            My name is Mike, 12-year-old child.
            Your fascism consists of seeking to intentionally stack the electorate for those “democratic elections” to favor your tribal agenda.

            Anything else? (smirk)

            1. I know you’re a 12 year old child. That’s why I refer to you in the diminutive.

              Importing people to grant citizenship so you have millions to vote the way you want is stacking an election Mikey. I’m not advocating that. That is what open borders is.

              I oppose immigration from any group, white, black, oriental, hispanic or otherwise, and I think that the politicians should have to make the case for their policies, rather than just purchasing low-IQ barbarians who will vote for more state power.

    2. And if I was pretty near certain that they’d go home at the end of the day or after a brief “vacation” stay, then I’d be in favor of letting them visit the country with a flash of an ID. Kind of like US citizens visiting Canadian and vice-versa. But 11M Mexicans/Guatemalans/Salvadorians… have crossed the border with no intent of ever going home.

    3. I think you miss that they CAN just come over pretty easily. It’s the fact that often when they do, they never go home. That’s where the issue comes from. Canadians don’t stay and live here illegally in too big of numbers.

      I believe a lot of Mexicans sneak over because they don’t want there to be a record of their coming in in the first place. If they just wanted to stroll on over to shop in El Paso for the day they can do that. But if they go through the border officially we’d know they came in and never left. That’s why they sneak.

  10. The Peaky Blinders would cause the MS-13 crowd to shit themselves.

  11. Is it possible that Trump referred to MS-13 because the girls were killed by MS-13 members and not just to create a bogeyman?

    Is it possible that, when people are talking about horrific crimes MS-13 members have committed, they’re doing it because MS-13 members have actually committed horrific crimes and not because they’ve been told to?

    1. Come on, illegals never commit crimes. This is all make-believe.

      /sarcasm

      1. Immigrants never commit crimes

        FTFY

        /Libertarians

      2. Come on, illegals never commit crimes. This is all make-believe.

        They merely commit fewer crimes than natives.

        1. If they’re legal immigrants, anyway.

          1. Wrong again, Trumpster.
            (Will he scream Fake News?)

            1. Not according to most stats I’ve seen. Look at the percentage in prisons in the south west that are illegals… Then their percentage of the population. That’s all prog tard bullshit. Legal immigrants are very upright, illegals are not.

              1. My stalker fucks up AGAIN! (OMG)

                Look at the percentage in prisons in the south west that are illegals.

                1) The “south west” is not America
                2) All crimes arte not in prison.

                that’s all prog tard bullshit

                Bwaaaa Haaaa Haaa
                (snort) Is the Wall Street Journal progtard??? Or are you a TOTALLY brainwashed puppet of the political elite?

                You even SHAMELESSLY denied ABSOLUTE proof that Trump is full of shit on who launched the violence at Charlottesvile. https://reason.com/blog/2018/01…..nt_7115547
                Another inconvenient fact you REFUSE to see.

                Will you also deny the Wall Street Journal?

                No, you keep making a public fool of yourself. I merely defend against your cyber-bully stalking and aggression, (Now he’ll stalk me forever – the authoritarian right)

                Left – Right = Zero

                1. Ugh. Immigrant does not = Illegal Immigrant. Nobody is saying immigrants overall have a higher crime rate… Although those from some countries DO. As well as higher unemployment, lower education etc. But legal ones on average aren’t bad. Illegal immigrants are a whole separate set of people. Average education level of Mexican illegal is 8th grade! You’re only fooling yourself if you think these people will ever excel or catch up to the achievements of your average white American or Asian American.

                  Not to mention the ONLY reason the national average is so high is because of blacks and native born hispanics. If you look at WHITE or ASIAN crime stats, and compare the average legal immigrant even, it is not such a rosy picture. Blacks commit 50% of murders. Mexicans another 20 something percent IIRC. So the average is already sky high because of our failed minority groups who never seem to be able to get their shit together. Basically every immigrant group, that’s not white or Asian, has higher crime stats, lower education, more unemployment etc than native born whites and Asians. The brothas in the hood lower the bar for our national average, but these people will most definitely make urban/suburban America MORE, not less, dangerous.

  12. Debaters always use dramatic examples to illustrate their points, and that’s all this is. MS-13 is here precisely because of our lack of adequate border patrol and immigration enforcement. That is a fact, as is the murders they have committed here.

    Also, illegal immigrants all are law breakers, and all but some of the “dreamers” did so on purpose and continue to do so when buying false identification.

    The author chooses to conflate illegal immigration with legal immigration, which is not surprising. Libertarians don’t like the idea of nations, even though the nation system is the only thing providing the freedoms that allow Libertarians to speak freely.

    1. Libertarians don’t like the idea of nations, even though the nation system is the only thing providing the freedoms that allow Libertarians to speak freely.

      The argument used to be that Libertarians believe in having a state with limited and controlled functions. That they aren’t anarchists. It appears that either that is a lie from what I read in Libertarian publications and see in discussions like the comments. That, or the Libertarian movement has been successfully colonized and subverted by anarchists.

      1. Successfully colonized and subverted by the left. Not anarchists.

      2. You’re ALSO clueless on what anarchist means?

        And … in all your supposed reading (lol), how didja miss that we’ve been fiscally conservative and socially liberal … for almost to years now?

        The argument used to be that Libertarians believe in having a state with limited and controlled functions

        WE decide what those limits are … not the authoritarian right. Libertarian LITERALLY means the polar opposite of your authoritarianism.

        Left – Right = Zero

        1. ANOTHER ONE?

          Successfully colonized and subverted by the left

          We’ve been fiscally conservative and socially liberal for nearly 50 years.

          As are 60% of all Americans. Your time has expired.

          And it you’re so TOTALLY ignorant of what libertarianism means, why not stay with Breitbart and Infowars?
          Instead of shaking your fist at the sky and screaming?

          1. I just want to add, little Mikey, that despite your hysterical response to any sort of rational dialogue, very few people go to infamous Breitbart or nefarious Infowars for their news. And I’m not one of them. I actually get most of my news from Reason. I find it good to read from sources other than those that confirm my own worldview. Perhaps you should try it.

            It is yet to be seen whether or not my time has come to an end. I don’t think it’s over.

            But keep in mind, it it will be your descendants–if you were so fortunate as to have any–who will find themselves an oppressed minority in their homeland if your ideas win out. Look to South Africa, and tell me, is the life the Boers face the future you want for your own descendants? You welcome that into your own home, which is horrifying enough, but you demand that I and my children welcome that fate into ours.

            Despite how loathsome you may be, I wish that future on no people. Not even you.

            1. That’s the rub of it. A lot of people don’t seem to think through the TRUE implications. And what that world will look like. If this were ONLY America I would be more okay with letting America go to hell, I guess… But Europe is doing it too. The globalist progressives for some reason think that Europeans are the ONLY people on planet earth that absolutely cannot be allowed to have a homeland to call their own. We’re some evil scourge on the earth, and if strong, predominantly European civilizations continue to exist it’s like the end of the universe.

              They really are sick, demented, evil people. They talk about how we stole the land from the Indians, which hey we did conquer it from them, but somehow that makes it so we have to give up our homelands… Fuck that!

        2. I’m so clueless about the meaning of “anarchist” that I’ve got maybe a half dozen books on the topic in my library. My favorite is David Friedman’s “The Machinery of Freedom”.

          Though Anarchy, State and Utopia wasn’t half bad.

          Left “anarchists” typically aren’t anarchists, really, because their ambition to suppress capitalism can’t be even approached without a state. And the people you see protesting at various events, calling themselves “anarchists”?

          Just thugs who heard the phrase, “Bomb throwing anarchist”, and thought to themselves, “I get to throw bombs? Cool!”

          1. Non-responsive

            Left “anarchists” typically aren’t anarchists, really

            But left libertarians are? How so? Examples instead of gas?

            1. It was I who said I think that libertarians have been colonized by anarchists. Bellmore said he thought it was leftists. He explicitly described why leftists aren’t actually anarchists, even if they claim they are.

              1. Also non-responsive.

                It was I who said I

                That’s why I opened with … “ANOTHER ONE?”
                all-caps!

                1. He’s not really “ANOTHER ONE” of me if he was replying to disagree with me.

        3. Mikey, I have no confusion on what Libertarian is. The Left vs Right narrative is irrelevant to the point I made, because Anarchism is not necessarily a Left vs Right thing, but an Authoritarian vs Atomization one. Libertarians used to be differentiated from the Anarchists (particularly “Anarcho-Capitalists”) as actually believing in having a state and opposed to having NO State.

          1. Mikey, I have no confusion on what Libertarian is. The Left vs Right narrative is irrelevant to the point I made,

            Which you have yet to support. Plus childishness.

            The argument used to be that Libertarians believe in having a state with limited and controlled functions

            WE decide what those limits are … not the authoritarian right. Libertarian LITERALLY means the polar opposite of your authoritarianism.

            WE decide that governrment should be limited on immigration … which IS socially liberal GOVERNMENT. So spare me your jack-booted nonsense that it’s anarchy,

            1. Meh. I find your “Jack-booted” hysteria pretty boring Mikey. To an anarchist, a libertarian is a jack-booted authoritarian. It’s about perspective.

              I’ll say that open borders are not “socially liberal”. They are socially suicidal in the current world we live in.

            2. Many libertarian positions are closer to anarchist than any typical left/right position. In this case, open borders, it is very much an anarchistic point of view. Libertarians are “moderate” anarchists on many points, and the open borders thing is one of those areas.

              I’m all for the US government becoming 95% more libertarian than it is now… But open borders is THE LAST thing I would want to go full tilt libertarian/anarchist on. There are too many obvious practical downsides. Anybody who thinks we can have true open border WHILE maintaining anything of a middle class is delusional. Our working class, and AT LEAST the lower middle class, would be instantly wiped out by the flood of people coming in. MAYBE upper middle class professions and outright rich people would do okay, but nobody else.

              It may not be 100% personal freedom oriented, but it’s a practical trade off I am more than willing to make. If I wanted to live in a country with a small elite, and teeming masses of poor, I could move to the 90% of the world that isn’t America/Europe/Japan/South Korea and do that. But I prefer a society with a decent middle class as I don’t have to hire body guards to keep from being kid napped or shot by the mobs like in Brazil, Mexico, Africa, etc. It’s a worthwhile tradeoff IMO since the new immigrants are not something that bring much to the table in the first place.

      3. Something about “to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,” right? The problem with open borders, in a nutshell, is that new people may come in too fast to be assimilated to the idea that government exists to secure rights and acts with consent of the governed. It is no more libertarian to let people indifferent to your freedom take over your polity than it is to let people indifferent to your welfare take over your home.

        1. You just don’t get it!!! We’re liberal socially and it’s socially liberal to hand over the nation your forefathers built to anyone that wants it! And it’s socially liberal to grant them citizenship!

          Left – Right = ZERO! DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND???? LEFT – RIGHT = ZERO

          [Autistic Screeching]

          /Hihn

          1. He never bolds the Left – Right = Zero. I rate this aggression the work of a moronic Trumpster who will now scream FAKE NEWS!

            (snort)

            Wrong again in defense of a cyberbully! Kivlor LIES and MOCKS!

            Left – Right = Zero!

            1. LMAO that was a Damn good Hihn impression RT. I now to your skill

              1. *Bow.

                This is why I avoid typing on my phone -_-

            2. (snort)

              Red Tony
              Wrong again in defense of a cyberbully! Kivlor LIES and MOCKS

              Verbal Aggressiveness …A personality trait that predisposes persons to attack the self-concepts of other people instead of, or in addition to, their positions on topics of communication … Verbal aggressiveness is thought to be mainly a destructive form of communication

              Verbal hostility, or in other words, verbal harassment or abuse is basically a negative defining statement told to or about you or withholding a response and pretending the abuse is not happening.

              Cyberbullying The act of bullying someone through electronic means (as by posting mean or threatening messages about the person online)

              Student snowflakes aren’t the only ones shouting down opposing views.
              That’s WHY Left – Right = Zero. The proof is overwhelming, on this page alone)
              As we can plainly see, they seem compelled to launch aggressions. Totally out of control.
              How much bullying in just this thread? So far?
              Then they huddle and chortle together … like a pack of wild dogs.
              As I keep laughing at them.
              Beware Bellowing Blowhards

          2. Left – Right = ZERO! DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND???? LEFT – RIGHT = ZERO
            [Autistic Screeching]

            (snort) Conservatards (the authoritarian right) go APE-SHIT when I SHOW they are no different than libtards (in tactics) … as libertarians have been pointing out for nearly 50 years.

            Today, a growing majority of Americans agree.

            (It makes it a lot easier when they simply cannot control their authoritarian mentality, as cyber-bullies committing serial aggression on a libertarian website. It’s like being in a footrace with a cripple)

            1. Dude, if you think I’m a Conservative, you are terribly mistaken. Conservatives are cuckolds.

              As to tactics, I don’t believe in denying any tactics to myself that my opposition would not deny themselves. You come into these threads and call names and try to smear people like myself as fascists. Responding to your ridiculousness with ridicule isn’t bullying according to your own principles.

              I’ve tried to have reasonable conversations with you repeatedly. You choose not to engage in such. That’s on you little Mikey.

              And as to the popularity of these policies, well, popularity is a fickle thing and can easily change in a generation. In WWII 90% of white Americans said they’d rather lose the war to Germany than end segregation. What’s popular today may not be in a short time.

              1. Report All his posts as spam.

  13. “many without jumping through nearly impossible legal hoops”

    Many without even a wink and nod to the laws of the US, who then demand that the US accommodate them and their demands for citizenship, schooling their children, welfare benefits, and the right to bring in 50 7th cousins while calling it “family reunification” (p.s., your family was only broken up because YOU left YOUR family in YOUR home country.).

    OTOH, nearly 1M people manage to navigate those “nearly impossible legal hopes” each and every year.

    1. How many times will you repeat that shameful bullshit about “demands”
      How much hysteria can you spew on one page?

      1. How much hysteria can you spew on one page?

        Self-awareness is not his strong suit.

        (snort)

        Left – Right = 12.3835186

      2. Except they DO demand all those things! They demand citizenship, despite not giving the first fuck about any of our traditional ideals, other than those that are falsely contorted to imply we OWE them citizenship. They demand free college, other hand outs. All that shit is true for the majority of the illegals. I grew up in Cali, I’d know.

  14. Conflating addressing the dangers of uncontrolled immigration with conflating illegal immigrants with crime is deceitful.

    1. Yeah, but we knew he’s a pathological liar, almost immediately, on the size of his inauguration crowd.
      And he’s told over 2000 proven lies in his first year, before all the bullshit in his SOTU.

  15. I feel like provoking a Hihn attack, The warm-up will be two sure-fire phrases that pull the pin on the grenade in lefty craniums:

    Americans are dreamers too.

    Blue lives matter.

    Now an irritating prediction: Trump will likely decide not to run again in 2020 despite his popularity after 3.5 years of effective governance finally cresting at over 50%. The Donald is simply getting old and he is eager to get back to managing his empire full time. When Trump and Melanie close the White House door the last time, the Supreme Court balance will be six leaning right, three lefties still standing.

    The GOP candidate next presidential election will be Nikki Haley. She will be running against Bernie Sanders or Joe Biden. You call it. . .

    1. I feel like provoking a Hihn attack,

      FAIL.
      I agree and made the same point, (without the examples)

      Most likely: He’ll resign. Ego. Authoritarianism frustrated.
      Unless he’s indicted.

      1. Indicted for WHAT Hihn??? He hasn’t done shit all that’s actually illegal as far as I know. He’s done things prog tards don’t like, but they’ve been the ones breaking the law by denying 100% constitutional executive decisions. The Russia thing seems to be totally bunk. They haven’t found a shred of anything concrete, and I doubt they will. GASP members of his team communicated in LEGAL ways! Oh noes! It’s witch hunt. I get why they’re doing it. It’s the same as Rs fucking with Bill Clinton, but the reality of the wrong doing is probably just as insignificant.

        1. as far as I know.

          (lol).
          And you’re the conservatard who lied so shamefully about who launched the violence in Charlottesville … despite a video with UNDENIABLE PROOF that Trump is full of shit.
          https://reason.com/blog/2018/01…..nt_7115547

          That makes you a tribal partisan shill

          Left – Right = Zero

          1. Ugh. I didn’t even vote for the guy! I voted for Gay Jay! But he is not Hitler incarnate. Anyone who can objectively look at both sides of the argument on any of the major issues can see that. He’s no Ron Paul, and he’s no Bernie Sanders either for those that admire socialism… But he’s not that far outside the norm either.

            The Russia scandal has found a few PERFECTLY LEGAL contacts. Wikileaks has said the whole time THEY ABSOLUTELY DID NOT get the email dumps from Russia. What other evidence is there? People in politics talk to politicians from other countries. Hillary’s team talked to Russians too! It’s how shit works. You’re just deranged by TDS dude. Trump is a fuck, and I’d rather have Ron Paul, or even Rand Paul, in there… But we got Trump. And he’s doing better than Hillary would have for freedom. So I’ll take what I can get.

            1. Does anyone still believe that bulls hit line about Russia hacking the DNC? Julian Assange said flat out Wikileaks did not receive the emails from the Russians. He almost certainly got the, from that DNC staffer the Clintons (or one of their allies) had murdered.

              Assange isn’t my favorite person, but so far he’s been on the level. So I’m willing to believe he did not lie about this.

              If anything, it appears the people colluding to throw the election were democrat operatives within the federal government. Every one of them should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

  16. “Trump’s references to MS-13 tonight were a cynical and prejudicial attempt to make Americans think otherwise and support his obsession with wasting American treasure on a futile and pointless attempt to stop people from coming here to work and be part of the overall economic fabric of the United States as workers, consumers, and taxpayers. Parents of murdered children deserve standing ovations, but Trump’s immigration madness does not.”

    Editor!

    Do you propose he say something similar to “Here are two tragic examples of what happens when our immigration system fails our citizens. We need to improve?” Because that is what everyone hears, unless a person suffers from TDS.

    1. Only brainwashed Trumpsters use “TDS” to deny inconvenient facts.
      While the vast majority just laughs at you. Same reason we laugh at Trump.

    2. Plus the fact that MS-13 is a big problem nationwide. With many of their members being illegals.

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