Bernie Sanders

Bernie Sanders Says He Spoke at Liberty U to Find Common Ground, But There's a Darker Possibility

Are young Americans actually being seduced by the lure of socialism?

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Senate Democrats/Flickr

Socialist presidential candidates aren't usually people I have a lot of admiration for, but I got an email the other day from Bernie Sanders that moved him up a notch in my estimation. The subject line was "Why on earth would Bernie go there?" It explained Sen, Sanders' decision to speak recently at Liberty University, the very Christian, very conservative college founded by Reverend Jerry Falwell at Lynchburg, Va.

"I spoke at Liberty University because I believe that it is important for those with different views in our country to engage in civil discourse—not just to shout at each other or make fun of each other," Sanders wrote. "It is very easy for those in politics to talk to those who agree with us—and I do that every day. It is harder, but not less important, to try and communicate with those who do not agree with us and see where, if possible, we can find common ground. In other words, to reach out of our zone of comfort."

This idea—also on display in Vice President Joe Biden's remarks at Yale in May, in which Biden spoke positively about Sen. Jesse Helms, the conservative Republican from North Carolina—may help to explain why Sanders is attracting large crowds on the campaign trail and better-than-expected support in polls.

That's the kindest interpretation. Watch the actual Sanders speech at Liberty University, though, and there's a darker possibility. That is the chance that American crowds are actually being seduced by the lure of socialism. Sen. Sanders offers the hope that generous benefits, such as medical care, family and medical leave, and higher wages, can be granted to most Americans simply by taxing, or regulating, the "handful of extraordinarily wealthy people whose greed is in my view doing this country enormous harm."

Sen. Sanders frames this in terms of "morality" and "justice." To respond to it, his political opponents—both Hillary Clinton and the Republicans—will need to argue along two lines. The utilitarian case is that socialism, where tried, has led to high unemployment, bare shelves, and slow growth. The vastly expanded welfare state in America has led to dependence, misery, and perverse incentives rather than increased opportunity or prosperity. The moral case is that individuals own the product of their labor, and that, beyond a certain point, taxing the few to redistribute to the many amounts to confiscation without consent—essentially, theft, or slavery.

Thinking about the state Sanders represents in the Senate, Vermont, can also help to explain some of the appeal of his presidential campaign. The senator who left the loud and crowded cities of Brooklyn (where he grew up) and Chicago (where he graduated from college) for the more bucolic Green Mountain state is the agrarian Jefferson to Hillary Clinton's urban Hamilton. Though Vermont is in the Northeast, it's a rural, back-to-the-land, post-industrial frontier in a way akin to the earlier stagecoach immigration West.

The new twist on the Vermont story is the way the state is experimenting with variations on the standard model of publicly traded companies in capitalism. One is the cooperative—both Cabot cheese and St. Albans Cooperative Creamery have survived and prospered as cooperatives controlled by family farms, albeit with various elaborate government price supports and trade protections. Another is the employee-owned corporation, of which Vermont-based King Arthur Flour is a leading example. That only goes so far; the state's largest companies in terms of employment and revenue are more traditional players such as IBM and Keurig Green Mountain, Inc.

The co-op and employee-owned models can exist and prosper as part of capitalism, and for some businesses and individuals, they may be the right fit. But I wouldn't count on them to power vast amounts of productivity or growth. Vermont's gross state product consistently ranks at the bottom of the 50 states. The Sanders policy program amounts, in part, to taxing Texas oilmen, Silicon Valley venture capitalists, and Wall Street investment bankers, and using the money to subsidize the ski bums and hippy organic farmers of Vermont. It's one thing for Sanders and others to choose to move to Vermont; it's another thing for them to ask for a subsidy from those who decided to stay in New York City or Chicago. Where's the justice in that?

If Sanders wants to get elected president, he will need to expand his appeal beyond the cheese belt of Wisconsin, Minnesota, Upstate New York, and Vermont. He'll also have to carry places such as Ohio, California, Pennsylvania, and Florida. His best chance to do that would be to take seriously his own excellent advice about getting out of his zone of comfort.

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  1. If Sanders wants to get elected president, he will need to expand his appeal beyond the cheese belt of Wisconsin, Minnesota, Upstate New York, and Vermont. He’ll also have to carry places such as Ohio, California, Pennsylvania, and Florida.

    That’s a much too optimistic view on the sensibilities of the electorate.

    All Sanders has to do is commit to doubling-down on everything Obama’s done already, and kick it up a notch with promises for even more free shit. And he’s in.

    A prevailing progressive sentiment exists that Obama didn’t go far enough, but that Sanders might be their boy to finish what was started.

    1. This will continue until the federal government’s funding mechanism, the paper dollar, finally breaks. Only after it breaks and people finally lose confidence in government script will the federal government’s spending be reined in. Anyone and everyone dependent on the flow of government script at that point will be hosed. It will not be a pretty time.

      The only question is will the US rediscover its roots in economic and individual liberty? Or will it instead back a strong man as Germany, Russia, China and so many other nations have done when their economies collapse?

      I’m betting on the later.

    2. Bernie, is an out of touch jackass. He wants to raise income taxes on private sector employees, and tax all estates at a 95% tax rate, on estates worth more than 10 thousand dollars. Although, he says government employee estates would not face any tax at all. Even if they were worth tens of millions. He also believes that government workers should be exempt from all taxes. But, all non government people should be taxed up the ass!

  2. In B4 tony and other leftist trolls

  3. Again, this is a man who thinks the government should regulate political speech on the grounds that some people have more resources to available to spend on it. Anything he says with regards to having a open exchange of ideas must be taken with heaping spoonfuls of salt.

    1. “-heaping spoonfuls of salt.”

      Which of course makes the whole thing unpalatable, but I’m afraid there’s something to the idea in this article. Even the female Shrillary voters I know around here speak almost wistfully about Bernie’s chances not being quite good enough on the national stage. It wouldn’t take much to start a socialist stampede in that crowd from what I’ve seen.

      They also have built the GOP into such a bogey man, that as I’ve said here before, libertarians of all stripes are painted with the Huckabee brush and I take more heat for wanting to live my life unmolested than I do for not choosing a deity.

      1. Amen, brother! And I say that as a born-again atheist. Libertarians are more evil than atheists even if we choose to live our lives beyond good and evil. The millennials may indeed stampede to Sanders in 2016. They are not going to rally around Hillary, or Trump, for that matter.

    2. And we have too many damn bobble heads.

  4. The moral case is that individuals own the product of their labor, and that, beyond a certain point, taxing the few to redistribute to the many amounts to confiscation without consent?essentially, theft, or slavery.

    Beyond a certain point…. if I steal a penny from you, is it not stealing? Or only when I steal two pennies?

    How certain is this “certain point”? I mean it’s a point that’s so precise, that acting beyond it is certainly a different moral beast. How did you arrive at this certain point with such certainty?

    1. “God told me.”

      /any religious politician

    2. I came here to make the same point as Free Society. I’ve been upstaged, but I will stay chipper.

  5. “As soon as A observes something which seems to him wrong, from which X is suffering, A talks it over with B, and A and B then propose to get a law passed to remedy the evil and help X. Their law always proposes to determine what C shall do for X, or, in better case, what A, B, and C shall do for X… What I want to do is to look up C. I want to show you what manner of man he is. I call him the Forgotten Man. He works, he votes, generally he prays?but he always pays…”

    William Graham Sumner

    1. In the paper this morning, an article declared that “San Francisco” is going to pitch in on a $2.5m loan to allow people living in a rent-controlled apt building to buy it, so they won’t be evicted.
      I’m hoping to meet “San Francisco” one day in the hopes s/he’ll loan me a mil or so with little expectation of getting it paid back, but I think I’ve already met ‘him’.
      It’s me and the other people who pay taxes.

  6. “using the money to subsidize the ski bums and hippy organic farmers of Vermont.”

    And have you ever tried to plan a ski trip to Vermont? The entire state shuts down at 4:00. If you don’t bring a rooster to wake you up, you’ll miss the whole vacation.

    Compare that to Pennsylvania, where our coal keeps the lights on at night, even out on the slopes.

    1. When you enter the state on I-70 out of Maryland, there’s a big billboard with a pic of the city lights, proclaiming it is the coal that keeps the lights burning

  7. “But I wouldn’t count on them to power vast amounts of productivity or growth. Vermont’s gross state product consistently ranks at the bottom of the 50 states.”

    Ira, it should be noted that Vermont is at the bottom of the gsp charts because it 49th in total population. The more relevant numbers are its GDP per capita which puts it closer to the middle at 32. It fairs even better in average income at 19th.

  8. That is the chance that American crowds are actually being seduced by the lure of socialism.

    There’s no “chance”, it’s a fact. Teachers have taught these kids the evils of capitalism and the joys of socialism. The USSR is gone, so there’s nobody to point at and say “you want to be like them?” In another twenty yrs, it’ll be progtards all the way down. We are well and truly fucked, unless the singularity or Jesus saves us, and I’m pretty sure Jesus is gonna stay dead.

    1. Also, you know who else was well and truly fucked?

      1. The Joooooooz?

    2. As a 16 year old taking “economics” at an SF Bay Area high school, let me tell you we might even be worse off than you think, today we learned about how a lack of unions for illegal immigrants is causing global warming. Like I shit you not, they blamed people using illegals for farm work for climate change.

      1. The other kids of course, ate it up.

        1. Yes, well, SF is in the vanguard, I’m sure. So, you weren’t dumb enough to argue with the teacher, i hope. You wouldn’t have changed any minds, and you’re to young to stick up for your rights; you be labeled a trouble maker. But once you get into college, let it rip.

          1. This time I laughed it off and just kind of let it happen, although I do argue some times when it is really egregious. Like last year we had to write a paper on why ObamaCare was good, so I just wrote my actual opinion that it was crap and took a zero on the essay. At one point we also learned about how by making it more expensive to do buisiness we would somehow magically lower costs and help small shops out compete big corporations (which are just obviously evil no matter what), and I argued pretty intensely with that. So yeah, I’ve sort of been stuck with the trouble maker label, but sometimes these people need to be called on their crap.

            1. Yes and good for you. Unfortunately, you are a minor, so you have to watch your boundaries. Me, I’m on the down hill side of middle age, my kid is grown, and my wife is dead, so I could give a crap less.
              You, unfair as it is, need to exercise a bit more discretion than I. Also, find a way to make your disagreement… undisagreeable? if you can, if you know what I mean.
              Also, any time you can use their own bs against them is good: Expose the sloppy thinking. Ask, “so, if the illegals unionize, that means the earth would cool down and we’d have an ice age?” Or some crap.
              Somebody else wanna chime in? I’m probly not the best guy to advise the kid.

              1. Anthropological Global Warming has been proven to be patently false BEYOND a shadow of a doubt, ALL evidence collected shows the heating and cooling cycles of the earth are directly influenced by solar activity, just because a bunch of people rely on AGW to be real to keep their jobs doesn’t mean its real, it means that there are large amounts of people who are willing to lie about it to keep their jobs and that there are large swaths of morons who want to feel good about doing “SOMETHING”. in reality nothing any human does will effect global warming or cooling save a nuclear holocaust and to pretend otherwise is a psychological disorder called megalomania.
                look up Larkin Rose if you want to learn effective ways to communicate with statist whores, hes interested in cooperating and convincing them to stop believing in the illusion of human authority.

            2. They should be grading you on your ability to form an opinion and back it up with evidence, being well argued. They should not be requiring you to learn how to parrot their talking points.

              1. This was my experience as the lone conservative in a small liberal arts college political science program. I had all lib/prog teachers, but they were fair as I was always respectful and argued with facts and without personal criticisms. I graduated with a 3.8, without agreeing with virtually anything I was “taught”. I began to feel it was my duty to call out the statist bullshit and offer whatever open minded kids there were another viewpoint. So keep up the good fight, Millard!

        2. I had a similar experience up until i took my participation in government class, my instructor was a Marine (no such thing as an ex-marine) and i never found out what his politics were but im assuming he was on the boarder of Libertarian/Anarchist since he let me use an Anarcho-Capitalist state for my final project it was called Galtland our main exports were “illicit” substances and firearms our infrastructure was voluntarily funded and our defense was in the form of mass personal firearm ownership. My instructor gave me a 100 for creativity and told me Rothbard would have been proud.
          I never did have another class that i gave half a rats testicle about.

    3. Jesus was only dead from Friday afternoon until Sunday morning

  9. the good news is that there’s a video making the rounds among sanders supporters where robert reich explains that all sanders promises wouldn’t cost us a cent in the long run. so, yeah….it looks like socialism is going to be cheaper at least.

    1. Thank god! Hey, did he say what the going rate was for the fifth amendment, anyway?

  10. “The Sanders policy program amounts, in part, to taxing Texas oilmen, Silicon Valley venture capitalists, and Wall Street investment bankers, and using the money to subsidize the ski bums and hippy organic farmers of Vermont.”

    Greeeeeeeaaaaat. So that means people like me who went to college so that they could work for Texas oilmen, Silicon Valley venture capitalists, and Wall Street investment bankers are essentially screwed since said greedy capitalists won’t have the money to hire new employees. Or if we are lucky enough to get hired, we will be doomed to subsidizing with our salaries underachieving bums who never went to college or even graduated high school for that matter. What a lovely future.

    1. Yes, well, hate to disappoint ya kid, but it’s been that way since at least when I got my college on, in the nineties, and probably since well before that.
      Welcome to adulthood. Ain’t it grand?

      1. I went to college then left for the military, both sucked but the military was infinitely more valuable for work experience and they pay a wage for it, IMHO if you go to school right after finishing school you’re just fucking yourself since the option exists to get real world experience and earn subsidized college.

    2. You should have gotten a liberal arts degree (for 40k of debt) to go work at Starbucks. Then, you too could have been among those to inherit the Earth.

  11. You call this a “darker possibility” and say that “American crowds are actually being seduced by the lure of socialism,” as if Sanders is engaging in an underhanded and unscrupulous activity. Sanders is engaging in democracy and this is how you are supposed to change people’s mind in a democracy. You state clearly and honestly your position and try to use reason to convince others that it is a good position.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that Sanders’ is closer to a European social democrat than a traditional socialist in most of his positions. Most of what Sanders proposes already exists in most other industrialized countries in the world. Many of his ideas have a long history in American politics. His Medicare for All program was first proposed during the New Deal in the 1930s and breaking up big banks is hardly a radical concept, enshrined in the Sherman Antitrust Act. The fact is that polling shows that the majority of Americans support many of Sanders’ ideas. See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..tly-right/ You can demonize Sanders as a “socialist”, but what you are really doing is saying that the majority of Americans are wrong.

    1. “You can demonize Sanders as a “socialist”, but what you are really doing is saying that the majority of Americans are wrong.”

      Okay, this is pretty stupid…

    2. “…as if Sanders is engaging in an underhanded and unscrupulous activity.”

      Given that socialism is an exercise in theft by self-righteous prigs and their larcenous cronies; yes he is.

    3. I’d argue that the majority of Americans are usually wrong about a great many things.

      1. C: “Are you saying that 25% of Americans are retarded?”

        S: “At least 25%.”

      2. Main reason why the founding fathers established a republic instead of a democracy.

    4. “You can demonize Sanders as a “socialist”, but what you are really doing is saying that the majority of Americans are wrong.”

      Yes they are and they are also by and large morons who shouldn’t vote. “Democracy” gave us the NAZI party as the largest party in the Reichstag. There is nothing special about majority rule. It can be loony and tyrannical just like Bernie.

    5. “clearly and honestly” He never once told the crowd he intends to STEAL from one group to pay for others to live, he used the misleading word tax.
      He never once told the truth of how socialism economically ruins everything it touches and didn’t admit the problem with our economy is that it is socialist already with minute pockets of capitalism and the lack of free market trade is destroying our wealth.
      He never admits to being a nationalist when he clearly hates the idea of immigrants working in the US
      He keeps pretending that raising the minimum wage will accomplish anything more than stealth inflation and more economic pain.
      He believes in his ability to wield the monopoly on force and believes laws are inherently justified because democracy, even if they are blatant violations of the constitution as revealed in his interview with a libertarian who didn’t give him a bunch of media friendly questions.
      HE IS PURE NAZI SCUM and pretending otherwise is delusional and retarded.

    6. “In matters of conscience, the law of Majority has no place.” Gandhi

    7. That’s a pretty long way to make the appeal to majority fallacy.

  12. You argue that Sanders’ agenda will wreck the American economy, but actually it will help the American economy. Currently the USA spends 17% of its GDP on health care, whereas the average OECD country spends 9%. Moving to a Medicare for All program will dramatically cut costs and studies estimate that it will save between 5 and 10 trillon dollars over a 10 year period. Dramatically lower the cost of health care will lower the cost of doing business and free up money for new investment and job growth. Likewise, the transaction tax which Sanders proposes on trading of stocks, bonds and derivatives will deincentivize high speed trading which causes market instability and increases the risks of market crashes. This transaction tax will pay for free tuition at public universities and decrease the interest rates on student loans. Removing student debt will free up millions of young Americans so they can buy homes and start businesses, which again will stimulate the economy. Studies show that the economic benefits of raising the minimum wage far outweigh the economic costs. Changing US trade treaties so they stop exporting jobs abroad will increase employment rates in the US, again stimulating the economy. Finally, there is very little evidence that lowering taxes actually causes economic growth, whereas there is a great deal of evidence that a high taxation rate which encourages businesses and the wealthy to avoid those taxes by reinvesting actually causes growth.

    1. Studies show, studies show, studies show, and then robbing people is actually good for them, and having the inefficient government distribute it around leads to greater growth and efficiency.

      Socialist studies show, but reality is far different. Socialism requires violence, theft and coercion.

    2. A solid brick of concentrated bullshit. Pretty much every assertion in Amos’s post was Socialist-flavored-progressive naivete’/propaganda which, ultimately, acts as a fairly accurate compass of truth by reliably being 180 degrees off the mark.

      My favorite was “Efficient trading causes market instability”. If our constitution is broken, it is primarily because it allows people who buy into weapons-grade retardation like that to vote.

    3. “You argue that Sanders’ agenda will wreck the American economy, but actually it will help the American economy.”

      Alright, now Amos is going full-blown retard.

      “Moving to a Medicare for All program will dramatically cut costs and studies estimate that it will save between 5 and 10 trillon dollars over a 10 year period.”

      Because Obamacare has ALREADY saved us HUGE amounts of money! Aren’t you paying LESS for you insurance now?

      1. “Likewise, the transaction tax which Sanders proposes on trading of stocks, bonds and derivatives will deincentivize high speed trading which causes market instability and increases the risks of market crashes.”

        Bubbles cause market crashes… like the Fed keeping interest rates at zero….

        ” Studies show that the economic benefits of raising the minimum wage far outweigh the economic costs. ”

        What “studies” are you talking about? Studies from the Institute for Economic Retardation? Although raising the minimum wage will DEFINITELY spur growth in the automation sector!

        “Changing US trade treaties so they stop exporting jobs abroad will increase employment rates in the US, again stimulating the economy.”

        I think Congress is required in these endeavors, and also, you are fucking stupid. Why should we care if some jobs go to China (like making trinkets) when other jobs stay here( like manufacturing luxury cars)? Jobs move from placetto place depending on where it is most efficient to have them. It is economic morons like yourself that don’t understand that.

        1. ” Finally, there is very little evidence that lowering taxes actually causes economic growth, whereas there is a great deal of evidence that a high taxation rate which encourages businesses and the wealthy to avoid those taxes by reinvesting actually causes growth.”

          So much DERP in this statement. First, NO, there isn’t ANY evidence of that and quite a bit to the contrary ( google “Hong Kong” some time..). Second, it is interesting that the wealthy avoiding taxes one way is fine for you, but not, say, by just moving that wealth to be taxed to an offshore account. That is BAAAAAAD. Why would you assume that the wealthy have to be coerced via high taxes into reinvesting? Don’t you think they would do that with their profits anyway? It seems like you understand, however, that businesses and the wealthy are going to do everything they can to avoid those high taxes, though.

          I bet you’re a big fan of the movie “Elysium”…

    4. “Currently the USA spends 17% of its GDP on health care, whereas the average OECD country spends 9%.”

      Government health care alone costs more than all those countries spend in total and covers about half the population. There is no reason to believe government provided care is going to be any cheaper. If you want further evidence our primary and tertiary education system is 50% more expensive than the rest of the world and that is already a government monopoly.

    5. Are you always a disingenuous liar, or were you brainwashed that way?
      THE ONLY THING THAT HAS BEEN EMPIRICALLY PROVEN TO HELP THE POOR IS FREE MARKET CAPITALISM, THE ONLY ECONOMICS THAT ACTUALLY RAISE THE STANDARD OF BEING POOR RATHER THAN MAKING EVERYONE EQUALLY POOR (aside from your messiah CrashnBern)

    6. Can you detail how medicare for all will result in all these savings?? I thought that was what the aca was supposed to do.

      How does min wage lead to all this goodness? Less people will be employed. Why not 50 an hour since it is a great thing? Why even phase it in?

      I always get a kick out the high tax rates are great for growth argument since wealthy people will invest instead. Uh they make their wealth by investments already

    7. So if that tax on trades reduces incentive to trade…how will free college be paid for

    8. Skepticism is your friend Mr. Batto.

      You already understand that we have an agenda, now understand that the people putting out those studies have an agenda as well. Figure out what that is.

      Some general points to keep in mind:
      -most Politicians’ goals are 1) get elected 2) get reelected.
      -the people who seek political power are people who like to tell other people what to do. These people are not angels.
      -No tax ever proposed has raised as much money as projected
      -No spending proposal has ever cost only as much as projected
      -poverty is the natural state of humanity. Increased freedom (specifically freedom of trade) is the only thing that has ever changed that.

  13. You attack Vermont’s agricultural, worker-owned cooperatives by saying that they can’t function without government subsidies, but most US agriculture is subsidized. Vermont’s agricultural coops don’t receive any more subsidies than conventional agricultural businesses. I have seen no evidence that coops require any more or less subsidies than other types of businesses, but I have seen evidence that they pay their workers better and that they survive recessions better. The problem that they face is that they have trouble raising capital, so they have problems expanding.

    1. So being some receive subsidies by robbing others, all should receive subsidies.

      You favor theft so much. Why not take your beliefs and put it into local practice? That would require you to rob your neighbor. How far do you think you’d get before someone defends themselves?

      Oh wait, only when politicians engage in theft is it all ok.

      1. AKA. “Corporate welfare is only okay when it goes to companies that i feel good about”
        I’ve had enough of your disingenuous assertions, there is not one shred of intellectual honesty in your entire argument, so the question is, Do you really believe any of that crap, or are you a Liar intentionally?

    2. As someone who wants to live a socialist lifestyle, would you prefer…

      A) A totally free society where you and other consenting adults can purchase land and live that lifestyle without harassment.

      B) A totalitarian socialist government which forces ALL to live the socialist lifestyle, whether they want to or not. (their version of socialism… not yours)

    3. What evidence is there that they survive recessions better and pay workers better?

    4. “Vermont’s agricultural coops don’t receive any more subsidies than conventional agricultural businesses.”

      LOL! That’s like saying “Rush Limbaugh is no fatter than John Goodman, so Rush is skinny!”

  14. “…there’s a darker possibility. That is the chance that American crowds are actually being seduced by the lure of socialism.”

    I had to read that twice to be sure it was not meant as a joke. My friend, you are about 100 years too late. Americans have already been “seduced by Socialism” – they just haven’t gotten used to that word.
    The US actually invented European style Democratic Socialism!! It was all based on FDR’s “Second Bill of Rights” – a.k.a., the “Economic Bill of Rights” (look it up!). FDR could not get it passed through the Republican Congress (sound familiar?) but it was worked into the Marshall Plan and the US-assisted rebuilding of the European countries after WWII. Europe never had a socialist tradition – they were used to monarchies, class structures and dictatorships – all the things our Founding Fathers wanted to get away from. So America gifted them a new way to start over clean and build a society that honored labor, protected the middle class, and granted rights to the individual that Americans still don’t have. Bernie aims to rectify that.

    1. And Europe’s economy is just doing sooo well these days…

      1. Sure it is, just ask a Greek.

    2. Germany started this nonsense way before FDR.

    3. No Hitler was first, get your facts straight.

      1. “No Hitler was first, get your facts straight.”

        Perhaps google the history of the social welfare state in Germany?

        1. not you, was talking about the FDR comment and i was just using the first example off the top of my head, i suppose i cant credit hitler with the idea but he was the earliest prominent example of european socialism that i could think of without googling

          1. The welfare state was really a Bismarck project in the 1880’s well well before Hitler or FDR

    4. What rights do those individuals have and how would a bunch of regulations and mandates be elevating individuals?

  15. Of course they’re being seduced by socialism. It means they don’t have to pay back their student loans or even bother to find productive employment.

    1. We get to play fantasy at the expense of liberty.

      Damn the future generations, full speed ahead, because when the bill actually comes due, we’ll be long dead.

      So grab hold of that magical socialism and cram it in your kids head, because they’re gonna need to confiscate whats left from team blue and team red.

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    1. Fuck that Bern is going to give me all the free shit i need, why work for a living when i can just vote!

  17. Bernie sanders fans,

    Can you please stop this charade that americans have a bad standard of living or that the middle class is being destroyed. Also please look into these other countries disposable incomes, standard of living, tax rates on normal folks and also dig further into details about universal healthcare and free college and see what those actually entail

    Thanks

    1. If it doesnt fit the dialogue then it will be ignored, just like Obama… at least voting doesnt matter and we can all rest easy knowing the figurehead for our Oligarchy was picked many years in advance and that its already a done deal without the input or consent of the voters.

    2. Most American socialists have never lived in the countries they idolize; likewise, most foreign socialists have never lived in the USA. Both speak mostly out of ignorance.

      One way to cure an American socialist, quickly, is to force them to live in one of the societies they think is so awesome. They can pay taxes, participate in all the public services, etc. — but not have the recourse to go home for stuff. If they do, point out they’re abandoning socialism.

      I lived in Europe for years, and knew all sorts of American socialist expats who would proclaim the superiority of the European socialist lifestyle… but curiously always found themselves flying back home to get major medical procedures, purchase advanced electronics products like PCs (to smuggle in, free of VAT, of course), and purchase goods and services that weren’t available in The People’s Utopia.

      Most ended up moving back to the USA to get higher pay rather than staying in their dead-end jobs, too. Several will even honestly admit that the quality of life and value-for-money in their old country of residence both sucked, but “only because they didn’t do socialism correctly.”

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  19. Ira seems shocked that right-wing Republican religious conservatives find appeal in socialism. Really?

    Come on, these are the people who insisted that Kim Davis had a “right” to a government-paid paycheck, and didn’t have to do her job because Jeebus.

    And the people who have, for years, supported make-work military jobs for themselves and their communities; government subsidies for quasi-private groups like the Boy Scouts; big taxpayer-provided checks in the form of “vouchers” for their religious schools in many parts of the country; big subsidies for local industries like oil, agriculture and manufacturing; and government-subsidized student loans for people who want to, ohhhh, attend Liberty University.

    They’re all socialists already. They’re just listening to a fellow traveler from the socialist party that they’re typically not used to voting for, rather than the other socialist party most of them are aligned with.

  20. BERN IT ALL THE FUCK DOWN!!! Bernie 2016. Lets get this fiasco over with before I miss another Libertarian moment!

  21. I can explain the appeal quite easily – our current tax system is regressive, middle class wages have not kept up with inflation and we hear about the benefits other ‘socialist’ countries enjoy, how they pay less for healthcare and don’t have the insane child poverty rates we have. Right now the poorest 20% pay DOUBLE the tax rate that the top 1% do… That is unfair.

    http://www.itep.org/whopays/

  22. “Seduced by the lure of socialism” sounds like some McCarthy-era sensationalism. Bernie is a Democratic Socialist; that distinction is important.

    Has Socialism caused any more despair than what free-market capitalism is doing right now?

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