Ben Carson

Ben Carson Wants to Use Drones on Illegal Immigrants (UPDATE: 'one drone strike, boom, and [they're] gone')

GOP #2 also vows to 'seal' the 'northern border, the Pacific border, the Atlantic border, every border'

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Thinking big. |||

Ben Carson, number two in nationwide GOP presidential polls, made a series of insane statements and policy proposals today at a huge campaign rally in Phoenix, in front of a Breitbart News-estimated crowd of 12,000 people. Sample:

[W]hat I have said consistently is we need to seal our borders—but not just the southern border, the northern border, the Pacific border, the Atlantic border, every border.

Reality check on the political surrealist: Even if you put up 7,500 miles worth of fencing (including 5,500 on our porous frontiers with menacing Canada), the border would not be remotely "secure" in the way that half the GOP field and a huge swath of its fanbase fantasizes. That's because—for now, anyway!—residents from 38 countries are allowed to enter the United States as tourists without a visa. Millions more came here on temporary visas for work or school, and then just stay. An estimated 40 percent of the current illegal immigrant population in the United States arrived in this country legally.

Build the danged fence! ||| SevenDaysVT.com
SevenDaysVT.com

So to "seal" American borders in any meaningful sense of that word, you'd have to not only put up those 7,500 miles of Berlin-style walling (at a cost in the hundreds of billions), but also eliminate the Visa Waiver program (thereby crippling the U.S. tourism industry and restricting American freedom of movement abroad), and then affix tracking technology to every foreigner who sets foot inside the country. You would, in short, have to build a police state.

Which fits in snugly with Carson's next comments:

We can use a whole series of things to do that, not just fences and walls but electronic surveillance, drones and many of the techniques that are used to keep people out of top secret places.

To be sure, Carson did not specify that his border drones would rain death upon those humans brazen enough to seek better lives for themselves outside of Washington-approved bureaucratic channels. Also, Customs and Border Patrol Protection have already shelled out more than $360 million on (mostly ineffective) non-lethal border drones. But what few of the buggers have been deployed are useful mostly in detecting contraband shipments, not individual humans. We shall see what Carson's ideas are for making drones operational on river-swimmers and fence-jumpers and tunnel-diggers, but [UPDATE: Rare collects some more Carson commentary on the subject today, including this statement: "You look at some of these caves and things out there one drone strike, boom, and (they're) gone"]. 

Anyway, judging by who he thinks is coming across that border, lethality is not hard to imagine.

All of those things are available to us. We have the ability to do it, we just don't have the will to do it. That will change when we have the right administration in place. The reason that is so important—a lot of people think there are just people coming from the south of the border—there are radical global jihadists who want to destroy us and our way of life and we have to keep them out. We have to make it not easy for them to get in here. This is a matter of our own security.

Bolding mine. As Ron Bailey recently pointed out, since 9/11, every single vaguely Islamist terrorist attack on U.S. soil has been perpetrated by people who came to this country (or were born here) legally. "In other words," Bailey wrote, "building a wall across our border with Mexico would have done nothing to prevent any Islamic terrorist attacks."

Fucking illegals! ||| People
People

But Carson has other reasons to keep foreigners out:

[O]nce we have that border sealed, we have to turn off the spigot that dispenses the goodies. If there are no goodies, guess what? They won't come. It won't be worth trying to get through our borders if there are no goodies. That includes employment—we should make it illegal to employ people in this country who are not legally here.

It actually is illegal to employ illegal immigrants, a thing that should give Carson and other restrictionists pause. If Americans and immigrants keep breaking laws by the millions, and adopting mutually beneficial black-market employment arrangements rather than asking at every turn for the government's permission, is this a problem of rampant criminality, or is it a problem of prohibition? Is the solution always to keep making this behavior illegaller?

Carson's emphasis on "goodies" here is instructive, as is his authoritarian notion that there is a single, governmental "spigot" that "dispenses" them. The U.S. already turned off the "spigot" of most welfare programs for illegal immigrants in the 1990s; the result being that illegal immigrants are a net contributor to the welfare state. As mentioned above, the goodie of employment is already illegal, as is much of illegal immigrants' punching-above-their-weight entrepreneurialism, yet human stubbornness and ingenuity keep making both happen. Perhaps as importantly, the United States has unmatched "intangible wealth," in the form of institutions, civil society, rule of law, and so forth. Government did not build that wealth, and it cannot take it away, despite the worst efforts of would-be presidential aspirants.

Lastly, Carson joins the chorus line of GOP politicians seeking to repeal part of the post-Civil War 14th Amendment:

I know the 14th Amendment has been brought up recently, about anchor babies—and it doesn't make any sense to me that people could come in here, have a baby and that baby becomes an American citizen….There are many countries in the world where they simply have recognized that and don't allow that to occur.

As Damon Root wrote here in 2010,

the 14th Amendment's Citizenship Clause specifically overturned the Supreme Court's notorious 1857 decision in Dred Scott v. Sandford, which held that persons of African descent could never be U.S. citizens. It was a magnificent achievement for the young Republican Party.

It is remarkable, though no longer surprising, that the GOP is actively seeking to undo what few selling points it still has.

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276 responses to “Ben Carson Wants to Use Drones on Illegal Immigrants (UPDATE: 'one drone strike, boom, and [they're] gone')

  1. Using my psychic powers, watch me predict 1/3 of the posts in the coming thread:

    The Reason writer is twisting the facts to suit their urban elitist agenda. The study this story is based on was heavily flawed (amazingly, this turns out to be true for every study which reaches a conclusion that I disagree with). The tone of their writing has an unacceptable liberal slant. A democrat did the same thing, but worse ? why isn’t Reason covering THAT story? This Reason writer’s interpretation of libertarianism differs from my own ? can they not see that my version of this belief is the only one logically possible and therefore this makes them wrong, and a cover for progressive liberalism? Why is Reason sticking with its stated mission of spreading libertarian ideology, instead of attacking democrats? Reason writers are entirely too concerned with being cool, and in doing so, out themselves as closet progressives. Regardless of what this story is about, somewhere in the world today, a democrat said or did something that I consider stupid but which is completely within the normal bounds of the beliefs that their party openly espouses ? why is Reason not writing a story about this outrage?

    1. Ya got it.

      *closes browser – goes to sleep*

    2. Thread’s over, guys. He’s got it nailed.

    3. You forgot “Mexicans, pot, and butt sex”

    4. Needz moar COCKTAIL PARTIEZ!

    5. You also forgot the part where the butthurt nativist whips out a shitty ‘study’ immediately after claiming the ones cited in the article are (somehow) flawed.

    6. Let make this very clear to you: You are not a libertarian at ALL. Libertarianism does not mean attacking democrats and pretending to ignore insane stupidity said by republicans, specially when it is about, well you know, freedom. You, like countless so called “libertarians” are just right wing, racist, xenophobic assholes. Never forget that.

      1. ^^SECOND PLACE

      2. I can’t tell if this is continued sarcasm, an inability to read/terrible reading comprehension, or all of the above.

        1. When on doubt, always go with stupidity.

        2. He is using Poe’s Law ironically.

      3. ….seriously?

        1. You know me, Cyto. Just the most notorious right-wing xenophobe in these here comments.

          *snigger*

          1. I’m just afraid he’ll out me as an antiwar.com agent saboteur.

    7. Whoa, slow your roll, Bucko. You missed how much we are going to talk about Salma Hayak’s tits.

      1. The politically correct term, Crusty, is ‘love balloons’, not tits.

        Get your shit together already, man.

          1. I am a failure..

            No. The correct response is: “Hey, If I want to say tits, I say tits. Don’t boss me around, woman. Also, you look a bit fat. Lose some weight.”

        1. “Love Balloons”?

          What happened to “Funbags”?

          1. Funbags does not sound so desirable. Love Baloons is not as repugnant sounding, but a little silly. I think I’m sticking with ‘tits’. Although, really breasts has a good sound, but it doesn’t offend anyone, so that’s no good either. Tits it is.

            1. Wow! …and Tits doesn’t even belong on the list. That is such a friendly
              sounding word. It sounds like a nickname, right? “Hey, Tits, come here,
              man. Hey Tits, meet Toots. Toots, Tits. Tits, Toots.” It sounds like a
              snack, doesn’t it? Yes, I know, it is a snack. I don’t mean your sexist
              snack. I mean New Nabisco Tits!, and new Cheese Tits, Corn Tits,
              Pizza Tits, Sesame Tits, Onion Tits, Tater Tits. “Betcha Can’t Eat Just
              One.”
              7 Words. George Carlin RIP

      2. She was the most voluptuous economist of the 20th century.

        1. How’s Hawaii?

          1. So nice. Last day. I’m afraid to go up and settle the bill though. Bar tab is definitely going to be in the 4 figures.

            Oh, and I got an ear infection from the pool. Not cool when I have to fly home in a few hours.

            1. Having ear or sinus problems and flying aren’t a good combination. Good luck!

              Good to hear Hawaii was good.

              1. I got a script for Cipro called in at 5am, so I should have it knocked down by at least 50% by wheels up. It’s a pretty high dose, though, and makes me feel like shit. Couldn’t even eat breakfast, even though there’s a slice of leftover NY style pepperoni in the fridge.

                1. These sound like good drugs, but not good in the Agile Cyborg way.

            2. Use some decongestants and pray

            3. Hope your flight home isn’t too awful with the ear infection. I’d say I hope you have some drugs to sleep during the flight but know that’s probably not possible with little ones to keep occupied.

              1. That’s what wives are for – duh!

                1. That’s what wives are for – duh!

                  He has a whole passel of babies, like 9 or 13. A women can only do so much.

                2. I have the other 2. Hopefully they shut up and play with the iPads for 6 hours.

          2. Oh, and the baby took his first steps here.

            1. Why would you bring a baby to Hawaii? Are you sacrificing him to the volcano gods?

              1. I couldn’t leave him in his cage at home for an entire week.

                1. Please turn in your libertarian card at the nearest kiosk. You may surrender your monocle and tophat at the next Reason cruise.

            2. Give him a swat to discourage that behavior. Can’t have him being all independent and mobile in Obama’s America (soon to be Trump’s America).

            3. Congrats! Our granddaughter just started walking. “Be afraid – be very afraid”

              1. Oh shit — you breed?

    8. Someone has to comment on the alt-text. “Think Big” and a Salma Hayek low-cut dress picture? OK, there are women with bigger breasts out there, but I like the juxtaposition.

    9. Thanks, now I don’t have to go to the trouble of reading the rest of the 100+ comments.

      1. Actually there’s not a lot of it. I think I scared them off by coming out of the gate too strong.

        1. It also helped that you spawned a much more interesting thread.

        2. Reasonable says the most recent commenters are Tony, John, Warty, Gilmore and Gilmore. I suspect this early fun start is going to go to shit as soon as I keep scrolling.

    10. You missed the kudos for the pic of the hot chick and the alt text

    11. Yeah, I got nothing.

      Well done. I’ll move on to the Lynx, now.

    12. Yes, I’m sure you’d prefer bloggers cover issues YOU’RE interested in, rather than issues THEY’RE interested in.

      Get your own blog.

  2. Say what you will, I loved her “Road to Serfdom.” Mexico must have better economics programs than the U.S.

    1. Where’s that pic of a Hayek quote transposed over her picture? Because it’s hilarious.

      1. Yeah. I assume you saw the one with the MRAs freaking out about how men designed the world and she should be grateful, etc.

        Pretty great stuff.

        1. Yeah, that’s what I was thinking of.

      2. http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/?s=hayek

        Sorry, my internet skills are poor. Need to click to enlarge to see the comments.

        1. OMG
          it took me at least 30 seconds to get it. I was like “Is Sema quoting Hayek? Did she say something mean about men. I DON’T UNDERSTAND! That’s a great quote, is she against the meme somehow?”

          Then…My brain made the most subtle connection between Hayek and well Hayek.

          NEEDZ MORE CREATINEZ

        2. This further confirms my theory that dark matter is just stupidity.

  3. You would, in short, have to build a police state.

    A police state is a small price to pay to prevent Islamojihaddistmexicans from sneaking over the border and plotting to take away our freedoms.

    1. If it saves even ONE anchor baby’s life, Hugh….

      No, wait…

    2. Build a police state? I think maybe we’ve already got one.

      1. This one will be better: more free cake

        1. The cake is a lie.

    3. “You would, in short, have to build a police state.”

      Why do that, one isn’t enough?

    4. I believe Ms. Hayek is Mexican and Lebanese.

      And she is welcome to personally terrorize me any time.

      1. Just like Al Pastor. Perfection.

    5. I wonder if Matt Welch ever gets tired of beating up those straw men?

      So to “seal” American borders in any meaningful sense of that word, [would] cost in the hundreds of billions

      Actually, no. You don’t have to have a fence and you don’t have to have guards every three feet either. Flying drones over areas in unpredictable patterns would do the trick. Catch someone crossing the border illegally, nail them with a hellfire missile, video the kill and transmit it non-stop to Mexico with the message, “Invaders will be killed”. At any particular instant large parts of the border will be unpatrolled. But the criminal invaders won’t know which or when. Such a program won’t cost “hundreds of billions of dollars”. In fact, it could be used as part of the training program for drone operations elsewhere.

      Predator and Argus can monitor 10 square kilometers at any given instant from an altitude of 20,000 feet with resolution of 6 inches. Within a period of minutes, it can scan hundreds of square miles of surface… and it can motor along at 300 mph for 14 hours at a shot. So, in effect, a single drone could patrol a significant portion of our southern border daily, detecting and destroying invaders. The cost of a predator plus Argus is less than $10 million. Even if operating costs ran to $10 million a month, it would take 10 years to rack up 1% of Matt Welch’s hysterical estimate of cost.

      1. And I am sure that Putin would be opposed to some MANPADS just falling off a truck in Mexico on their way to Cuba

      2. This reminds me of the modern approach to criminal justice in general.

      3. … are you really suggesting kill-on-drone-sight for individuals you have deemed no-man’s-land?

        I have a hard time believing you are a person and not a a troll.

  4. Well, look who’s finally getting serious about being the GOP nominee. And I would go further, if I was the doctor. I would state that if that commie pinko Rand Paul fights against domestic drone use here, he should be held just as accountable for any illegal making it across the border as New York Democrat Chris Christie would have him for any terrorist attack.

    1. Young Rand is a Varsity Douchebag, but ‘commie pinko’? Sheesh

      1. Your sarc meter is broken.

      2. That was the only objectionable part of my comment?

  5. What we really need is an impenetrable northern border at H&R. NO MOAR COMMENTS FROM CANADIANS with their flannel, curling, beer and cold hands.

    1. Hey, I argue with John. That proves I do the job other H&R members don’t want!

      1. Um, we’re actually trying to cut down on that.

    2. That is one idea we can all agree on.

      1. We’re next, Lord H. Border state, doncha know….

        *gazes derisively at Ohio*

        1. NO MORE POUTINERIES!!!!

        2. We’re north of Canada!

  6. I am increasingly of the conviction that Hillary as president would be a hell of a lot less dangerous than at least half of the GOP field as president. She’s a criminal with no ability to enthuse people beyond her base. Better than this Carson asshole.

    1. See what happens when you let Canuckistani terrorists sneak in? You get Hillary for President, that’s what.

    2. Don’t you have some moose grooming to tend to or something?

      1. BEAVER grooming. And don’t you forget it!

        1. +1 flat tail

        2. Well, Cyto’s got a big brown beaver
          and he shows it off to all his friends

    3. It must be a relief that you don’t have to make that choice BECAUSE YOU’RE NOT AN AMERICAN AND CAN’T VOTE HERE.

      1. Look, he uses a socialist “we” to speak of what Americans should do! Be more grateful and listen to his wisdom!

        1. WWCD?

          (What would Cytotoxic Do?)

          1. Always the right question to ask! (before doing exactly what Cytotoxic would do).

        2. Ah, the C-51 police state supporter shows up. Bold

          1. No, guy who gives zero fucks about C-51’s pointless re-giving of existing powers to spies to pretend to do their jobs shows up. Big difference, kid.

            1. I wished I lived in your world where C-51 doesn’t gives spies arrest powers or criminalize ‘glorifying acts of terror’ (can’t wait for that to be used against anyone who fights back against left-wing thugs!).

              1. http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/…..C-51_1.PDF
                ‘glorifying acts of terror’ is not a phrase that I can find in it. Nor is ‘acts of terror’ – you are confusing this with Benghazi.
                ‘Acts of terrorism’ appears twice. As in,

                Act to enhance security relating to transportation and to prevent air travel for the purpose of engaging in acts of terrorism

                Spies do have arrest powers with a warrant, as per:

                (a) believes on reasonable grounds that a terrorist activity may be carried out; and
                (b) suspects on reasonable grounds that the imposition of a recognizance with conditions on a person, or the arrest of a person, is likely 35 to prevent the carrying out of the terrorist activity.

                Now if you have a problem with “terrorism” period being an offense, then yes, oppose it. Also oppose the Federal list of terrorist organizations, terrorism as a crime etc.

              2. http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/…..C-51_1.PDF
                ‘glorifying acts of terror’ is not a phrase that I can find in it. Nor is ‘acts of terror’ – you are confusing this with Benghazi.
                ‘Acts of terrorism’ appears twice. As in,

                Act to enhance security relating to transportation and to prevent air travel for the purpose of engaging in acts of terrorism

                Spies do have arrest powers with a warrant, as per:

                (a) believes on reasonable grounds that a terrorist activity may be carried out; and
                (b) suspects on reasonable grounds that the imposition of a recognizance with conditions on a person, or the arrest of a person, is likely 35 to prevent the carrying out of the terrorist activity.

                Now if you have a problem with “terrorism” period being an offense, then yes, oppose it. Also oppose the Federal list of terrorist organizations, terrorism as a crime etc.

                1. On, speech issues, maybe this is your problem

                  “terrorist propaganda” means any writing, sign, visible representation or audio recording that advocates or promotes the commission of terrorism offences in general ? other than offence under subsection 83.221(1) or counsels the commission of a terrorism offence.

                  Terrorism offense actually has a meaning as per section 2 of Criminal Code:

                  terrorism offence” means

                  (a) an offence under any of sections 83.02 to 83.04 or 83.18 to 83.23,
                  (b) an indictable offence under this or any other Act of Parliament committed for the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a terrorist group,
                  (c) an indictable offence under this or any other Act of Parliament where the act or omission constituting the offence also constitutes a terrorist activity, or
                  (d) a conspiracy or an attempt to commit, or being an accessory after the fact in relation to, or any counselling in relation to, an offence referred to in paragraph (a), (b) or (c);

                  So that could be used by leftist thugs. Or, they can just go with the existing anti-speech code, such as, say, Section 319 of Criminal Code

                  Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace

                  This section includes the ability of government to seize any means used to communicate said hate speech.

      2. It’s not a relief because that choice has massive impacts for me and many like me.

        1. Yawn. No it doesn’t, not really.

          1. Yes it does you doof. Obama’s shitty economy means Canada has a shitty economy.

            1. Yes, but awesome US economy + NDP still means Canada has a shitty economy.
              How about you worry more about $15 minimum wage and carbon tax instead?

              1. How about you worry more about civil liberties? Besides, if the NDP propose it, Harper’s NDPConservatives will eventually implement it so not much difference.

              2. Is Cytotoxic really pro-NDP? When the fuck did this happen?

                1. When he got convinced that C-51 is worse than Gun Registry, Section 13 of Human Rights Code, 7% GST and bombing ISIS.

            2. Yeah, and the beat of a butterfly’s wings in the Amazon..yada, yada. yada.

              Yawn.

              1. You’re stupid.

                1. Charming and clever as always, Cytotoxic.

  7. It is times like this when I’m thankful my vote doesn’t count for anything. Otherwise I’d have to devote time to deciding whether Hillary Clinton is *really* worse than the dolts at the front of the Republican race.

    1. dude you make lots of choices, but only one really matters. too bad it’s the one you have like a percent of a percent of a percent chance of having any say in

  8. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ALL STILL POSTING!! YOU’RE KEEPING ME AWAKE!! JIM WON THE THREAD RIGHT OUT THE GATE!! TAKE YOUR GODDAMNED ORANGE LINE-RIDIN’, LIBERALTARIAN, DUMBOCRAT, BUTT-SECKS, MEXICAN-LOVIN’ ASS OUTTA HERE AND LET ME GET SOME SLEEP.

    THANKS…

    dipshits

    1. Fucking Orange-liners. Goddamn.

      (Yellow liner, here)

      1. I don’t know from lines – I’m in Michigan. We all have cars. Or tractors. Mostly pickup trucks.

        1. Orange-liners are the gentrifying, sanitizing, scourges of the metro area.

          And I’m going to show my cred by saying “I remember when Wilson Blvd. used to be cool

          1. Yeah, I’m just mimicking the other REASON commenters. “Orange Line” seemed to = COSMOTARIAN KOCHTAIL PARTIEZ!111! Which I like, so….there you go.

        2. C’mon. We’re spending $200 million for three miles of track from detroit to detroit. Who says we hate mass transit.

      2. that’s not even “real” Fairfax County.

    2. “when that 3AM call comes, what will he do?”
      “I’ll turn around and go back to sleep”

      Almanian 2016 – he probably won’t make it worse!

    3. Dude, I’m stuck here with a massive ear infection. I wish I could get to sleep.

      1. Ugh. Good luck on the flight home!

  9. “radical global jihadists who want to destroy us and our way of life ”

    Sounds to me like Dr. Carson himself should be put on the list. I guess his campaign banner is a white flag with the lettering “Terrorists – You Won!”

  10. It actually is illegal to employ illegal immigrants

    Another important development happened in 1996: The Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don’t have Social Security numbers to file tax returns.

    I don’t understand how unemployed folk need this number

    1. Income can be derived from things other than employment. Sure it’s not nearly as common, but it’s not so rare as to be unheard of.

      1. One might have imagined that people earning meager wages and fearing deportation would take a pass on the IRS’s scheme. Not so. Each year close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country file personal income tax returns using the alternative numbers,

        Must be working for Google

    2. It’s like marijuana tax stamps.

  11. GOP #2 also vows to ‘seal’ the ‘northern border, the Pacific border, the Atlantic border, every border

    Should be interesting to see a wall covering the troposphere. Would it be like mosquito netting?

    1. *furiously sprays every old can with freon in it I can find*

    2. They’re going to get a gigantic glass dome like in the Simpsons Movie, and cover the entire country with it.

      1. SIMPSONS DID IT

  12. I am also increasingly of the conviction that the insanity gripping a chunk of the GOP over immigration is the next great Obamacare-level threat to American freedoms and that it is what libertarians need to focus on fighting in the short term, with other priorities taking a back seat (but by no means abandoned). Libertarian organizations need to cook up a propaganda campaign to vilify border security and those who want more of it and enforce it.

    1. Don’t you have some moose grooming to tend to or something?

      1. I mean BEAVER grooming…

        1. I post here at the same time.

      2. Cytoxic lives in Calgary I think. I doubt he has ever seen a Mexican outside of the Chico and the Man reruns he watches on his black and white TV. Yet, he is totally sure that anyone who disagrees with him is the RACIST.

        And remember, any foreigner outside of the US is a potential terrorist who should be bombed just to make sure. Once said foreigner makes it to the US, then they are the greatest most hard working person on earth who should be granted citizenship immediately.

        1. Your ability to attack strawmen and pretend to understand the thought processes is as unimpressive but mildly amusing as ever.

          1. You only get offended because you are a humorless douche bag and it is not a straw man but actually how you think.

    2. that it is what libertarians need to focus on fighting in the short term, with other priorities taking a back seat

      I’m sorry, Objectivist, but your opinion on where libertarians need to focus is utterly irrelevant. Perhaps you should go present your opinions to the wildly successful Objectivist PR campaigns. Oh wait.

  13. Salma Hayek’s boobs. Mmmm….

    I’ll be in my bunk. FER REELZ! SLEEPING

    GOOD DAY, SIR!

  14. Anyhoo,

    Let property owners decide whether immigrants can or can not come onto their property.
    Let individual states decide whether immigrants can and can not use their infrastructure and services, no matter their entry point.

    Let the chips fall where they may.

    The states that allow free flow of immigrants will become so rich all the abstainers will fall into line…or not.

  15. the 14th Amendment’s Citizenship Clause specifically overturned the Supreme Court’s notorious 1857 decision in Dred Scott v. Sandford, which held that persons of African descent could never be U.S. citizens.

    LOL. Or is Ben trying to pass for white?

    1. maybe he’s the model for Dave Chapelle’s blind racist bit.

  16. Some of the border is pretty well sealed already; try coming in by airplane. Why do we hate people who can afford airfare?

  17. My Mexican girlfriend when she hears “seal the border” bluster: “Go ahead and build the fence. It’s not like we can’t build kick-ass air-conditioned tunnels.”

    1. Is your girlfriend taking a job an American won’t do?

      *rimshot*

      1. Depends. Is your mom American?

        Did I do that right?

        1. Depends. I’ll need pics of both.

    2. And by the way, do I win the Reason trophy for giving it to a Mexican girl in the ass while high on the pot?

      1. You win a hell of a lot more than just the Reason trophy.

      2. What Gojira said. #WINNING

      3. Depends on what you gave to her…

      4. Only the Silver. Gold requries you either pay her in bitcoin or make snide comments about India USA.

  18. I just don’t get this wall bullshit. The Berlin wall couldn’t keep people from going where they wanted. It had razor wire and machine-guns. Who is stupid enough to think we can build a wall along the longest national border in the world and keep people from crossing it?

    I am not an open borders guy by any means, but this wall idea is just plain stupid. Why can’t we fix our monstrously fucked up immigration system? Is anyone talking about that?

    1. Your vision just isn’t big enough, suthen. That’s why you’ll never be president.

      Ben Carson has vision. Donald Trump has vision – ‘UUUUUUUUUGE vision.

      You? You have the Rebel Flag and Rebel Yell. Enjoy whatcha got.

    2. “But the Berlin Wall was keeping people in and this one will keep people out! That’s important for some reason I won’t make clear!” /border-tard

      1. The wall worked you fucking half wit. See Pan Zagloba below. You are so dumb your stupidity is actually entertaining.

        1. I used to think it was performance art. But no one is that good without being naturally gifted.

          1. No he is really that stupid. Tony and Shreek are performance art. Cytoxic and Frank are real.

        2. It worked so well that thousands crossed over it to freedom.

          1. Yeah 5,000 people in 29 years. As opposed to the hundreds of thousands who crossed it in one night once they tore it down. But thousands of people!!

            God you are fucking stupid. You are just shockingly stupid. Every time I think you can’t get any more stupid, you prove me wrong.

      2. The Berlin Wall also had Todes-schutzen… altruistic socialist snipers who were paid bonuses for every citizen they shot trying to get across that border into the land of selfish, godless, dog-eat-dog capitalist exploitation.

    3. The Berlin wall couldn’t keep people from going where they wanted.

      For fuck’s sake! Of course it did.

      Seriously, compare the traffic out of East Berlin when wall was in operation to when the Commies blundered and said something that turned out to mean “we won’t operate the wall if people want to cross.”
      During all of duration of the wall (61-89), according to Wiki, 5000 people made a crossing (136 confirmed deahts). In one single night in 1989, tens of thousands crossed over.
      It worked. It was a shitty, tyrannical structure that turned half a city into an open air prison. But it did work.

      1. Not to mention the longer wall that turned half a country into an open-air prison.

        1. Well, really half a continent into sorta half-way house, where you could go visit, say, Hungary or Czechoslovakia if you were a Pole, but that was about it.
          I kinda take the shit personally, because I used to live in the country that had a semi-sensible policy about letting people out, before it collapsed courtesy of the problems that Communists (who ruled undisputed for 45 years) could not POSSIBLY be accountable for.

      2. The Berlin Wall was 87 miles long and had 10 military regiments assigned to it. A wall along the Mexican border, assuming it was built to Berlin Wall standards, would be 23 times as long. That’s approximately the size of the entire US military.

        So yes, a wall would work… if we spent half a trillion dollars a year defending it, forever. Oh, and threw out a bunch of American and international laws to issue “shoot on sight” orders for unarmed civilians. That would drop the number of illegal border crossers to only four or five thousand a year.

        Of course, 40% of illegal immigrants enter the country legally. A wall does fuck-all to stop them.

    4. Who is stupid enough to think we can build a wall along the longest national border in the world and keep people from crossing it?

      An arrogant doctor.

      But I repeat myself.

    5. “Why can’t we fix our monstrously fucked up immigration system? Is anyone talking about that?”

      Because WALL is a single, one-syllable word…

      …and the people who think “stopping immigration” is the #1 national priority are so fucking stupid they they have difficulty following anything beyond that.

      Actually talking about why the facts of why we currently have 11million illegal immigrants within the country…. and the steps we need to take to make most of those people “legal”, while booting the rest… is just too much for people to tolerate. they want Red Meat, and they want it now. WALL!!! says Trump!!! MORE BIGGER BIG WALL!! say the rest

    6. And, the monstrously fucked-up employment system, which is growing worse by the day…

      http://finance.yahoo.com/news/…..00436.html

  19. [O]nce we have that border sealed, we have to turn off the spigot that dispenses the goodies. If there are no goodies, guess what? They won’t come. It won’t be worth trying to get through our borders if there are no goodies.

    If there is one class of people that can be classified as THE stupidest about economics, it’s doctors.

    “turn off the spigot that dispenses the goodies. If there are no goodies, guess what? They won’t come” Why not do that FIRST? Then you don’t have to bother dispensing government goodies to border sealers.

    So Carson is either too stupid to be allowed anywhere near a budget or he is corrupt to the core.

    lethality is not hard to imagine.

    Which makes Carson a sociopath.

    1. I missed that.

      He wants to build a eleventyhundredbillion dollar wall first and then remove the incentives for people to cross it?

      Holy shit.

      1. What he is saying is completely rational when you understand how things actually work in Washington. You do the easy part first. It is comparatively easy to seal the border when you compare it to shutting off the entitlements. Shutting off the entitlements is much harder. In an ideal world you do that first. But this isn’t an ideal world and you do the easy part first.

        1. Doing it The Washington Way has worked so well for America thus far.

          1. Some people are not delusional like you are. Life is really hard when you don’t have voices in your head guiding you and you just play pretend.,

            1. Coming from John, master of making up imaginary arguments for other people, this is hilarious.

              1. This from the clown who was reduced to claiming I supported slavery. You never strawman anyone John, especially when you have lost the argument. NEVER. And it is good to see you are still butt hurt about it., It makes me happy to know that.

                1. This from the clown who failed to realize the actual implications of his own position and arguments. Again, I’m sorry that you’re legitimately stupid and arrogant enough not to realize what you openly admitted in that thread. But it’s not a strawman no matter how much you want it to be. You drew the moral equivalence, not me. I don’t really care if you deny the reality of what you said, because your credibility is utter shit around here for good reason.

                  1. Yeah. Thinking things have gotten worse totally means you support slavery. How did I miss that implication?

  20. OT: That Barney Rubble – WHAT an actor!

  21. Yeah, Matt just let anyone who wants come on in and stay. How is that working out for California?

    1. Pretty well. CA is more prosperous for its many immigrants.

      1. Texas was Mexico in 1835, but some Americans snuck in. Still, in 2003 I worked on about 120 deportations a day, mostly clueless rubes fleeing from dictatorships supported by the DEA. That gradually went down as they ran out of foreigners and started grabbing Americans who looked kinda foreign. Most people flee to These States from fascist dictatorships to which US prohibition laws and mercantilist mixed-economy corruption has been exported, where US “advisors” sit telling legislators which way they’d better vote if they know what’s good for them. Folks flee because their banana-republican governments pass laws making it ilegal to have a job, and taxing any company stupid enough to hire someone into bankruptcy court. Unemployment generates “crime” generates excuses for police state dictatorship.

        Ragnar to Hank Rearden: Do you know the conditions of existence in those people’s states?

  22. If you think you can
    or if you think you can’t….

    YOU’RE RIGHT.

    I think that was Henry Ford, but it might have been Hallmark Cards.

  23. I thought Ben Carson was supposed to be the “Not Retarded” one.

    sigh.

    1. HE IS!

      *psych*

    2. He’s just well-spoken

      1. RACIST!!!!!

    3. You must have missed a lot of his early comments. He was nuts all along.

      If you need brain surgery he is the go-to guy. If you need sane leadership, he is not.

  24. Carson may not be suggesting anything like a doable policy, but is intetedting to see Reason writer’s reduced to a spluttering incoherence by evidence that open borders may be a tremendously losing position electorally.

    1. Just check ’em off Jim’s list, please!

    2. The fact is that the “open borders / sealed borders (e.g. wall)” terms are both reflective of bullshit, starry-eyed misconceptions about how any policy would work in reality.

      There are a wide spectrum of views about both what we should be doing about the illegal immigrant population within the United States, as well as how we should be managing the border.

      Just because people point out that a wall is stupid, does not mean anyone thinks we should have an “open borders” policy.

      A wall would actually be an “open borders” policy in that it is “fake security” intended to ameliorate pants-wetting Americans rather than provide any actual sustainable and cost-beneficial way of trying to control North/South human traffic.

      Its nothing more than demanding a 2000-mile long TSA approach to immigration. Yes, you’re right = that might be a “winning electoral position”. Its still retarded

      1. “TSA-style”

      2. Okay, if the wall is stupid and Carson the CRAZY, then what do you suggest? Now I know you are not open borders because no one on reason is open borders. Tarran has informed me of that. So given that you are not open borders, what measures do you support?

        1. You seem to have missed the part where I said the “open borders” term is a stupid mockery of anything less than Hermetically Sealed National Boundaries….

          …which – given that is impossible and likely not even desirable under any cost/benefit scenario…

          EVERYTHING! is open borders!! What we do now is ‘open borders’! How do you think we ended up with 11million illegal immigrants in the first place?

          The issue about “moar border security” is a red herring. The fact is that the way we’re currently dealing with it sans wall is about as restrictive as its going to ever get. And that is likely *too much* in many areas.

          The current Border Patrol checkpoints, as far as 100 miles inland, for example… need to be gotten rid of. As do many other aspects of the enforcement regime, which spends millions annually jailing, processing, and recycling people who end up wandering back into the country later.

          We need to fix what being “illegal” means, and we will probably need to create a multi-tiered status for residency that is short of citizenship. We need to dismantle the “Legal Citizen/Illegal Alien” dichotomy. There’s millions of those “illegals” who should be legal citizens. And there are millions who Never should be. we should be focused on sorting those out, and changing the way we treat newcomers so that the first option isn’t to try and “hide”.

          1. I think the 100 mile check points are designed to make people associate border enforcement with oppression. Those have to go. I agree with that. The sanctuary cities have to go. We should ruthlessly deport anyone who has been convicted of a violent crime and jail them again if we catch them coming back in the country.

            The problem is that Obama is a lying sack of shit who is doing everything he can not to enforce the immigration laws. As a result, we have seen a huge influx of immigrants. This is creating the impression that the current system doesn’t work and we need to take drastic action. That is not true. We just need a President who is honest and does his fucking job.

      3. I do not think that Reason supports an open borders policy because the writers think building a walll is stupid. I think they support an open borders policy because they are consistantly against any form of preventing or punishing illegal immigration and any restrictions on legal immigration including health reasons when they are in danger of actually becoming an issue to deal with.

        1. They are transnationalists. They don’t believe in borders and can’t understand the arguments of people who do believe in borders.

    3. It’s interesting to me to see someone try so hard that they call Matt’s post incoherent.

      1. You have a point, “incomprehension” is more what I was trying to express.

  25. You can build a wall to keep people out. Or you can build a police state so that no one wants to come in. Apparently, our dear leaders decided that building a police state would be a lot more fun even if it is more expensive.

  26. Title: Ben Carson Wants to Use Drones on Illegal Immigrants

    “To be sure, Carson did not specify that his border drones would rain death upon those humans ”

    But, let’s pretend like he does in the title, because OPEN BORDERS!

    When Reason takes Proggy positions, they also adopt their “the ends justifies the lies” modus operandi.

    1. Just check ’em off Jim’s list, please!

    2. There is nothing in the story that falsifies Reason’s headline.

    3. We can use a whole series of things to do that, not just fences and walls but electronic surveillance, drones and many of the techniques that are used to keep people out of top secret places.

      To be sure, Carson did not specify that his border drones would rain death upon those humans brazen enough to seek better lives for themselves outside of Washington-approved bureaucratic channels

      Given the effective reference here to what Robert Mueller and others (including the FAA of late) have discussed regarding unarmed surveillance drones on American soil to monitor secure areas against trepass, it takes a remarkable leap of logic to assume anything armed (rather than extending the view of border guards via drones).

      Plus, not even Trump’s immigration plan include’s an AUMF against illegal immigrant that would cover a plausible legal doctrine for targeted drone strike on American soil…

    4. And Reason doubles down on their dishonesty:

      ” We shall see what Carson’s ideas are for making drones operational on river-swimmers and fence-jumpers and tunnel-diggers, but [UPDATE: Rare collects some more Carson commentary on the subject today, including this statement: “You look at some of these caves and things out there one drone strike, boom, and (they’re) gone”]”

      But they did provide a link, showing that the *context* of those comments were drug cartel hideouts, not the illegal swimmers.

      Tip to Reason – if you’re going to dishonestly quote people, you can’t pansy out and provide a link to the original material showing your dishonesty. What’s the point? Pick and team and play. If you’re signing up for the Progressive Theocracy, you’ve got to go all the way. Half measures won’t cut it.

  27. Let’s see if I got this right:

    (a) Lots of illegals overstayed valid visas, and monitoring the borders won’t affect them. THEREFORE, don’t monitor the borders.

    (b) It’s stupid to talk about immigrants getting welfare because handwave handwave handwave

    (c) if anchor babies aren’t automatically citizens, it’s just like saying that black people can’t be citizens!

    1. Just check ’em off Jim’s list, please!

      1. Which part of the list do my points belong to?

        1. I mean, seriously, Dred Scott?

          1. You can’t be serious. Seriously, you can’t be serious. Reasonites have long since stopped being serious about this issue. Immigration threads are for Libertarians what tent revivals are for holy rollers. They are just a call to the faithful to get some old time open border religion.

            1. Tell us about how fake the Scopes trial was John, and how LA RAZA is ruining this great nation.

              1. Lets talk about that trial. Again. I gave you this link yesterday but you were too stupid to follow it. I do this thing called reading books. This causes me to know things and not be profoundly ignorant like you are. One of the books I have read is this one.

                http://www.amazon.com/Summer-G…..opes+trial

              2. Here is a nice synopsis

                If you haven’t seen the film version of Inherit the Wind, you might have read it in high school. And even people who have never heard of either the movie or the play probably know something about the events that inspired them: The 1925 Scopes “monkey trial,” during which Darwin’s theory of evolution was essentially put on trial before the nation. Inherit the Wind paints a romantic picture of John Scopes as a principled biology teacher driven to present scientific theory to his students, even in the teeth of a Tennessee state law prohibiting the teaching of anything other than creationism. The truth, it turns out, was something quite different. In his fascinating history of the Scopes trial, Summer for the Gods, Edward J. Larson makes it abundantly clear that Truth and the Purity of Science had very little to do with the Scopes case. Tennessee had passed a law prohibiting the teaching of evolution, and the American Civil Liberties Union responded by advertising statewide for a high-school teacher willing to defy the law. Communities all across Tennessee saw an opportunity to put themselves on the map by hosting such a controversial trial, but it was the town of Dayton that came up with a sacrificial victim: John Scopes, a man who knew little about evolution and wasn’t even the class’s regular teacher. Chosen by the city fathers, Scopes obligingly broke the law and was carted off to jail to await trial.

              3. So yes, the trial was a put up job. Everything you read from Menkin and everything you saw in Inherit the Wind was a lie.

                Cytoxic, this is called being an educated person rather than an ignorant baboon like you are. I actually think about things and read books and know things. I don’t just run around pretending I know the facts because the facts have to fit whatever my fanatical ideology tells me they should.

                1. The testing of goofy laws was a part of American jurisprudence even before the nationalsocialists took over Tennessee.

  28. It’s like Gojira is a fucking SEER, man! He can SEE things, man! Things that others can’t!! He’s a…he’s….it’s like MAGIC, man! Scary!

  29. Gojira, take a bow and pat yourself on the back.

    1. This wasn’t half so bad as I anticipated, probably because of him. He’s a fucking miracle worker, and we should give him booze.

  30. I don’t know how true this is, but I consistently hear that Republicans need to win 40% of the Latino vote to win the White House. They are not going to win 40% of the Latino vote.

  31. Laugh all you like but understand that we are one major terrorist attack (as in Nuke or no sit Bio/Chem) from Carson’s position being the moderate one.

    1. As long as DC is the target…

  32. If Carson is so stupid, why can’t Welch come up with better arguments against him? Maybe Carson is crazy. I don’t know. If he is, you wouldn’t know it from reading this. There is not a single argument in here that isn’t a fallacy. Can Welch just not handle an opinionated black man? Is there something about Carson that reduces him to sputtering incoherent rage?

    1. This from the guy whose middle name is “sputtering incoherent rage.” Carson is saying stupid things. Same as Trump. Not stupid as in “I disagree with that policy.” But stupid as in “I know this is stupid, I intend for it to be stupid, and I’m saying it because I want the votes of stupid people.”

      I realize conservatives don’t really do nuance, but it’s getting pretty ridiculous. Immigration reform would be a large undertaking, but these guys can’t think of any policy approach more intricate than “der build a wall and bomb shit.” Your average beer-swilling idiot uncle is not presidential material, in my humble opinion.

    2. Welch obliterated Carson. RTFA

      1. No he didn’t. Not even close. He made three arguments. 1. People overstay their visas therefore we shouldn’t try and enforce the borders, 2. it is for reasons Welch can’t explain somehow dumb to point out immigrants getting welfare and social services and 3. that since birthright citizenship was passed in response to Dred Scott it somehow can never be changed.

        None of those arguments make any sense or are in any way convincing. They no doubt appeal to you because you are a fanatical half wit who will believe anything that fits your ideology. To anyone else, however, those arguments are very sub standard.

      2. And speaking of reading. Do you want to talk about the Scopes Monkey Trial? Want to tell me how it wasn’t a put up job? You seem to have grown silent on that subject.

        1. I’m curious what your angle is with the Larson book. Yeah it was a “test” case with an agenda behind it, and Scopes was what like a coach who never even taught evolution? So what? Evolution is therefore a bunch of hooey?

          1. The angle is that it wasn’t the drama that Meknin and inherit the wind made it out to be. It was a test case. The whole thing was a set piece drama and fake. The defendant volunteered to be the defendant and the town wanted to have the trial. The rest was just Bryant and Clearance Darrow putting on a show.

            1. John that is very frequently how laws are challenged in this country.

    3. “Libertarians are totally unserious about immigration! Now watch as I insinuate that the people who don’t want mass deportations are racist!” /Red Toney

    4. Can Welch just not handle an opinionated black man?

      This is like Salon-level retarded.

      1. Only if you don’t see it for the joke it is. Are you really that humorless and earnest? Or do you think your side is above ridicule?

  33. You can have secure borders OR a free country. Never both.

  34. Restrictionists? How about “patriots?” We recognize that the vast invasion of people from other cultures with mostly socialist values is rapidly changing our country into the third world. I would hope Libertarians understand that Libertarianism has a far better chance in the US than a country with the attitudes towards government of Mexico.

    1. …with the attitudes towards government of Mexico.

      Not sure if you were being flippant but (based upon my experiences in Mexico) the U.S. could use a great deal more of the Mexican citizenry’s distrust, dislike, and disinterest in politicians and government solutions for problems. In a myriad of ways, Mexico is more free and libertarianish than are we Yanquis.

    2. We recognize that the vast invasion of people from other cultures with mostly socialist values is rapidly changing our country into the third world.

      Lies. There is no evidence. Illegal immigrants are no threat to American freedoms. People like you are.


      1. Pew Research Center: Hispanic Politics, Values, Religion

        Support for a larger government is greatest among immigrant Latinos. More than eight-in-ten (81%) say they would rather have a bigger government with more services than a smaller government with fewer services.

    3. Yeah. What we need is more Republican Prohibitionists to send “advisors” to infiltrate those poor uncovered foreign wretches and teach thim the virtues of godly prohibitionism, torture, asset forfeiture, phonetaps, know-your-cursetomer rules, and beat them bloody until they are willing to pay smugglers the fillings out of their teeth to escape into The Land of Ordered Liberty under President Herbert Hoover. That’s the pathriotic way, by dad!

  35. An estimated 40 percent of the current illegal immigrant population in the United States arrived in this country legally.

    Which is to say, 60 percent of the current illegal immigrant population arrived illegally. Reduce illegal immigration by 60 percent? Sounds good!

    Better Visa enforcement and tourist tracking would help with the other 40 percent.

    1. Yay for police states!

    2. I’m pretty sure Carson meant to have drones kill them all and let God sort them out.

  36. At least Buttplug isn’t here. In fact, I haven’t seen him around for a while. I think he’s sobbing at the cankles of his graven Hillary image ‘Why Hillary?! Ohhhh Whyyyyy!!! I could have hid that server for you!! Booooohhoooohhoooo, whyyyy???!!!!’

  37. We already use “drones” for border surveillance…..try to keep up….and have been for 2 decades or more.

  38. If only there was an anti-police state party…

    1. If ONLY! There useta be a candidate… Hospers… wuzzat his name?

  39. Yes, it’s illegal to employ illegal aliens — but the law isn’t enforced because the Democrats want to maximize their votes when the illegals are eventually made citizens, and the Republicans are in thrall to donors who like the cheap labor (and the effect of fast-rising labor supply at a time of stagnant labor demand on labor compensation in general).

    1. Oh look the economic illiterate trogs have arrived. What a surprise.

  40. Matt Welch is a jerk. The Canadian border would never require a fence, and visa ned tobe regulated , not a difficult process. A border fece, using drones, would be easier now than at anytime in our history. Drones can reduce the need for personnel, the biggest expense.
    Matt Welch is living in the 1970’s and continues to push the idiotic libertarian idea of open borders.

    1. A border fece, using drones, would be easier now than at anytime in our history.

      And still fucking stupid. You can pay for it yourself.

    2. Edits:
      Plural form, two border feces, using drones…

      Matt Welch is dreaming the 1970s and needs to revert to the 1920 Positive Christian idea of National Socialism: “8. All non-German immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after 2 August 1914 shall be required to leave the Reich forthwith.”

      Now, Spic! The noive a dese pagan foreigners!

  41. Golly! What a manly, declarative and clear transmission of information. Here I was giving up on the existence of any Reason personnel able to more than cringe and cavil faced with arrogant. self-righteous totalitarianism, and Matt Welch steps up to the plate and knocks one over the fence. Let THAT send a message to those condescending Huffy sleazebags that SOME libertarianism is still alive and well at Reason.com
    I appreciate the journalism. Truth to tell, I won’t miss the Republican or Prohibition parties at all.

    1. “Golly! What a manly, declarative and clear transmission of information. ”

      What a joke.

      Nothing more manly than reporting weaselly lies about a man not around to defend himself.

  42. “Radical global jihadists” — Sounds like neocons.

  43. CARSON IS PANDERING TO REPUBLICANS DURING A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN? INSANE!

    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

  44. He was clearly talking about destroying the caves.

  45. We appeal President Obama to STOP issuing visas to Brahmin; They’re corrupt/racist; http://wh.gov/iNOd2

  46. If you meet anybody from India ask him “What is your Caste?”
    Caste is Cancer; It CANNOT be cured; It has be CUTOFF;

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..countries/

  47. Just put up an Advertisement in Newspaper seeking Upper caste Brahmin/Pandit/Bania/Vaishya/Rajput/Kshatriya women to wash utensils in your house;
    http://www.outlookindia.com/ne…..ost/910217

  48. Just put up an Advertisement in Newspaper seeking Upper caste Brahmin/Pandit/Bania/Vaishya/Rajput/Kshatriya to clean manhole before your house
    http://www.frontline.in/social…..447630.ece

  49. Where does this idiot author live? He sure as hell doesn’t live along the border. I used to do biological fieldwork in a border state and I left because I got tired of being shot at by cartel members who saw a white guy and assumed I was a fed. Farmers and ranchers are tired of having their property destroyed and stolen. Waved at a car going by once thinking the vehicle was full of camping gear from all the duffle bags inside until I saw the helicopter come roaring over the hill chasing them.

    Another fieldworker I ran into told me of finding a woman and her baby in the desert one night. The baby didn’t look good so he convinced her to let him take them to the hospital. The baby died of heat stroke anyway. Many women are raped or even killed by coyotes, cartel members, and the elements. If it’s possible to secure the border a lot of illegal immigrant lives will be saved as well.

    Drone away. I presume the author has no front door on his house or fence around his yard allowing anyone to come and go as they please otherwise he’s a hypocrite in addition to being a fool with no idea what he’s talking about.

  50. Open borders are a great way to advance the libertarian agenda.


    Pew Research Center: Hispanic Politics, Values, Religion

    Support for a larger government is greatest among immigrant Latinos. More than eight-in-ten (81%) say they would rather have a bigger government with more services than a smaller government with fewer services.

    1. And why do the Democrats want to import large numbers of illegals?


      Obama’s warning: ‘Right-size’ immigration expectations

      Quote:
      Adding to the elevated hopes about what Obama will do is the feeling among Democratic strategists that immigration reform is a clear political winner: … voters whom Obama might be able to activate, both among immigrant communities and progressives overall who see this issue as a touchstone, are exactly the ones that Democrats are hoping will be there to counter a midterm year in which the map and historical trends favor GOP turnout.

      In many competitive House districts and several of the Senate races that Democrats need to hold onto to have a chance of retaining the majority ? Colorado and Iowa, and to a lesser extent, North Carolina and Arkansas ? immigrant communities make up a significant bloc of votes. Done in a way that energizes Latinos and Asians, Obama’s taking the lead on immigration could prove a margin-making move for the midterms.

      Much of the discussions have focused on what can be sold to the American public and midterm voters, with the 2012 Dreamers model very much on the participants’ minds? Hispanic and Asian voters turned out in large numbers that fall.

  51. O]nce we have that border sealed, we have to turn off the spigot that dispenses the goodies. If there are no goodies, guess what? They won’t come. It won’t be worth trying to get through our borders if there are no goodies. That includes employment?we should make it illegal to employ people in this country who are not legally here.

    I have a brilliant plan. Let’s make the economy suck, so that there will be no jobs for these people. If there are no jobs, nobody will want to come here.

    1. No the problem is, the sneaky Mexicans will keep coming anyway, they’ll just start doing those lousy jobs no self respecting red blooded American wants to do.

    2. A weird version of the straw man that makes yourself look stupid instead of your opponent.

  52. the result being that illegal immigrants are a net contributor to the welfare state.

    Because K-12 education isn’t “welfare”, it’s just something we all decide to do together…

  53. An estimated 40 percent of the current illegal immigrant population in the United States arrived in this country legally.

    False. Visa fraud is a crime of intent. Very few of them come here not intending to overstay.

  54. Appallingly disgusting distortion in the title, btw. You should be ashamed.

  55. ; the result being that illegal immigrants are a net contributor to the welfare state

    Liar.

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  58. “thereby crippling the U.S. tourism industry and restricting American freedom of movement abroad”
    Don’t we need a passport to even to into Canada if we want to come back in the US? Aren’t there people on the no fly list who have no idea why they are on it and can’t get off even if they prove they are not the ones that were supposed to be targeted? What about restrictions to freely move within our own country up to 100 miles from the border without being harassed by the border patrol gestapo?

    “It actually is illegal to employ illegal immigrants…”

    However, “Requiring applicants to provide proof of their employment authorization before establishing an employment relationship is known as “pre-screening” and it may constitute a violation of the antidiscrimination provision of the Immigration and Nationality Act.”

    1. And this is my favorite, those who bring up the 14th amendment. The intent of the amendment was reiterated in the article quoted by Root, “the 14th Amendment’s Citizenship Clause specifically overturned the Supreme Court’s notorious 1857 decision in Dred Scott v. Sandford, which held that persons of African descent could never be U.S. citizens.” The amendment didn’t paint with a broad brush like so many want it to. It was specifically to right a wrong, to overturn Dred Scott v. Sanford.

      Libertarians have to stop towing the party line regardless. We need to look at what we believe and determine how we get there, it’s not just crying, “I’m a libertarian, and I believe this.” We have to say, “yes, I believe this but in the current climate it will not work, we need to change that in order for this to work.” I believe in open borders, but realistic to know that it will not work in a welfare state. Get rid of the welfare state and then open borders, you can’t have both. You must close one in order for the other to work, we have a welfare state, we must close the borders until such a time we no long have a welfare state, then we can open the borders.

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