Rand Paul

Rand Paul Backs Confederate Flag Removal, Calls It Symbol of Racism and Murder

Libertarian Republicans and the Confederate flag

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Rand Paul
Gage Skidmore

Sen. Rand Paul said he agrees with South Carolina Gov. (and fellow Republican) Nikki Haley that the Confederate flag should be removed from its previous place of honor on the grounds of the State House. In a radio interview this morning, Paul referred to the flag as "inescapably a symbol of human bondage and slavery," as well as a reminder of Dylan Roof's horrific murders:

"I think the flag is inescapably a symbol of human bondage and slavery, and particularly when people use it, you know, obviously for murder and to justify hated so vicious that you would kill somebody, I think that that symbolism needs to end. And I think South Carolina is doing the right thing.

I think it's, obviously, it's a decision for South Carolina to maker, but if I was in South Carolina that's what I would vote to do and I would recommend to anyone who asked me my opinion. There have been people who have used it for southern pride and heritage and all of that but really to I think to every African-American in the country it's a symbolism of slavery to them and now it's a symbol of murder for this young man and so I think it's time to put it in a museum."

Many other Republicans, including Jeb Bush, Mitt Romney, and Sen. Lindsey Graham, have also called for the flag to be taken down.

While most serious Republican presidential candidates have spoken out against the flag in recent election cycles, the notion that conservatives needed to make overtures to Confederate pride to win in the south once held some sway. Sen. John McCain famously flip-flopped on the issue in the 2000 election.

Over at The Week, Ed Morrissey argues that by coming out so strongly against the Confederate flag, Haley has made it easier for other Republicans to back her play—potentially saving the party from some embarrassing waffling on a clear-cut race issue:

With Obama's retirement in 2016, though, Republicans have an opportunity to start fresh with younger voters and those in minority communities. The RNC certainly wants to reach those voters and at least improve engagement. Had Republicans been forced to defend the flag yet again, or walk away from an opportunity to acknowledge its potent symbolism for blacks in South Carolina, that would have sent a message about the lack of insight and empathy from the GOP toward those communities throughout the entire nation — and could have blown an opportunity for a fresh start.

Instead, Nikki Haley shouldered the political risk and neutralized the issue for Republicans far ahead of the prime-time campaign season. She succeeded by doing the right thing and taking action for unity to match her earlier calls for healing. She may or may not pay a political price in the state if she decides to run for office in South Carolina after her second term as governor expires, but Republican presidential candidates can thank Haley's sense of leadership for getting them off of a very uncomfortable hook.

To compete for the votes of young people and minorities, Republicans have to prove that they aren't stuck in the past. My sense is that opposing the Confederate flag is a relatively easy way for Republicans to gain some "we suck less!" points with people who would otherwise completely write off the GOP. The trade-off—appearing insufficiently conservative to pro-Confederate southerners—is less and less relevant.

For additional reading on this subject, check out this powerful Daily Beast column from Rare Politics editor Jack Hunter. Libertarianism, Hunter writes, changed his thinking about the flag:

My attraction to libertarianism a number of years ago began a journey of rejecting groupthink and placing primacy on the individual. Once you start down the path of putting individual human beings above whatever group they belong to, it puts politics—and everything else—in a new light.

Putting people before an agenda or broad prejudices puts us all in a much better place. It can, and should, make us repentant of our past behavior. It did for me.

For libertarians, people should matter more than government-facilitated national pride. It's inspiring (and frankly, a relief) to see that libertarian-leaning Republicans like Paul are honoring that principle rather than following an outdated and offensive political strategy.

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  1. Well that’s popular. Someone said it earlier, Rs do not want to die on this hill.

    1. most of those that did, did so successfully in the early second half of the 19th century.

      1. Rs have always wanted that flag taken down.

        Let’s not forget that it’s makers and supporters have long been Democrats.

        1. You shouldn’t let your intellect die on the hill of this lame bullshit.

          For the zillionth time: once Democrats started doing good shit for black people, all the racists from the South left the party and joined the Republicans, which is the party we know and love today.

          1. once Democrats started doing good shit for black people

            You mean, once LBJ figured out how to sucker black people into voting for bullshit and accept dependency instead of advancement.

            -jcr

            1. Yes very clever of him. Good thing black people are so easy to dupe.

              1. The man’s own words were “I’ll have those niggers voting democrat for 100 years.”

                -jcr

                1. Yeah and the people who were even more racist than him became Republicans as a result.

                  1. Just like Robert Byrd? Even David Duke was a Democrat up until 1989.

                    1. 1989 was 26 years ago. That you can name a couple Democratic racists or former racists doesn’t trump all the racists in the GOP. I don’t know why you idiots thinks it does.

                    2. Eh, you’re missing the point.

                      The point isn’t that the democrats today are racist.

                      The point is that democrats frequently pick and choose which part of history they want to take credit for, even though the people who did whatever it is have been dead for a century.

                      Then, they skip the distasteful ones (democrat slave owners, democrat segregationists, etc.) because the villains weren’t compatible with their current right thinking. Like practically everyone else. Bravo.

                      So, never mind that the democrat party didn’t really have a problem for a long time making a home for obvious racists, imposing segregation through law. Because democracy, or some shit.

                      Basically, democrats just cherry-pick the heroes and leave the villains. “Yeah! We won the civil war! With the republican president! Because, we’re on the right side of history, and you own the slave owners. And, you own the segregationists, and we don’t. Because we’re on the right side of history. And you’re not!”

                      Frankly, the idea that all racist democrats immediately switched over to become republicans sounds more like a convenient urban legend than actual political analysis. Just reference the southern strategy and assume it. That’s good enough.

                      Then, they turn around and demand that libertarians and conservatives answer for the crimes of dead democrats. Because dead democrats become simultaneously disconnected fro living democrats, and connected to living libertarians in such a convenient way.

              2. Yes, people in general are easy to fool when you tell them what they want to hear.

          2. all the racists from the South left the party and joined the Republicans

            Not hardly. The Democrats are still the party that demands racial discrimination as a sacrosanct public policy.

            -jcr

            1. Right-wing media have pickled your brain dude.

              1. Ever heard of “affirmative action”, rent-boy? What do you think it is?

                -jcr

                1. The gift that keeps giving for racists who would never have gotten into Harvard anyway.

                  1. You mean the same racists polices that keep asian-american kids out of Harvard?

              2. Tony, I am puzzled, are you a lying sack of shit, an idiot, or an lying sack of shit idiot?

                One thing about you though, you are consistent.

          3. Which is why the South remained solidly Democrat territory at the state and local level until the 1990’s. Those ignorant rednecks were too stupid to realize that the Democrats they kept voting for as Representatives, Senators, Governors, etc. were part of the same party that was ‘doing good shit for black people’!

          4. You’re not just learning disabled, you’re becoming quite the little asshat with it. Time for you to take your Thorazine, little man.

          5. “once Democrats started doing good shit for black people,”

            And exactly what are those “good” things? Does developing and maintaining policies and programs that keep people from truly prospering count as “good”?

    2. But they retreat from pretty much every hill.

      This is a victory for the left, because they can strengthen their connection between Southerners and the GOP and racism. (The connection of that flag with Democrats will be glossed over.)

      And, of course, it won’t stop. What’s next? There’s always a next step with activists. Perhaps an attack on TV channels for showing Dukes of Hazzard reruns. Or maybe the American flag will be deemed oppressive, and there will be demands to remove it from classrooms. Who knows. Something stupid. The Overton Window shifts further.

      Meanwhile, Occupy rallies can have Communist flags and nobody cares. Obama campaign offices can have Cuban flags, but that’s not important….

      1. so, the GOP leaders rejecting it as a symbol is a victory for the Dems?

        1. Yes, because it says: “Our opponents are correct. Even ‘symbols of racism’ must be eliminated.” But nobody is urging that symbols of (say) communism should be eliminated. It’s all very one-sided.

          1. So does it not matter if Paul actually dislikes the flag himself? He must love it just to be contrary?

            1. No, I’m not saying that he must “love” it. I assume he’s sincere. I don’t love it, I just see all this as partly a distraction, partly another political victory for the left, and partly magical thinking. (“A murderer liked this symbol, therefore, we must eliminate this symbol to avoid murder!!”)

              1. so, if your “enemy” has chosen a side you agree with you can’t simply say, I agree on this issue.?

                THAT is party politics at best. It’s how you get branded a racist- letting the other side set the terms. Agree with them and their power on the subject goes away.

                I hope you aren’t a political strategist for a living.

                1. I can see why you aren’t a political strategist. “Agree with them and their power on the subject goes away.” Well, no. It deprives them of an issue, but they win and move onto the next related issue, with momentum. “You were wrong about that last one, so you’re wrong now, too.”

                  I am not saying that this was a hill to die on. I am not saying that Paul did the wrong thing, tactically or strategically or morally. I am just saying it’s another victory for the left, and it will likely come back to bite libertarians in the future. Banning “symbols of racism” sure seems like a slippery slope to me.

              2. The GOP will regret trying to play the PC game with Democrats, They are better at it. Taking a stand either way about a flag, is to be lazy and avoid the issue of racism directly. As I said, elsewhere, PC is just the Liberal’s prayer, and equally as effective. Good luck with that, GOP.

          2. Yes, because it says: “Our opponents are correct

            On this issue I think they are.

            A murderer liked this symbol, therefore, we must eliminate this symbol to avoid murder!!

            That’s a very silly statement, but it’s not the one I hear people making. More along the lines of “This flag symbolizes racism and slavery in the eyes of lots of people, so a democratic republican form of government shouldn’t implicitly or explicitly endorse it.”

            But nobody is urging that symbols of (say) communism should be eliminated. It’s all very one-sided.

            I suspect that if California started flying the sickle and hammer in Sacramento, it would cause quite an uproar. But you are right that communist symbols carry less social stigma. I don’t really see how that impacts an argument about the Confederate flag flying on government property, though.

            1. no but California schools can tell students they can’t fly the U.S. flag while they can fly the flag of Mexico so there is a real problem here with how the democrats treat anything of America. I say keep the flag to remember the past getting rid of it only hides the past of course the left would like to ignore the past since they are the biggest racist of all.

              1. Not flying the Confederate flag (on government property no less) doesn’t mean you forget or ignore the past. That’s ridiculous.

                1. If I was the SC legislature. I would drop the Confederate Battle Flag, and replace it with the 1st Flag of the Confederacy, just to be a spite prick with a taste for sarcastic use of history.

                  1. Best idea I’ve seen in this thread. Sadly, far too sophisticated to hold up for a nanosecond in the public crucible. But here amongst the Libertarians, a most excellent notion.

          3. Symbols of facism are bad…we can all agree on that right?

            Except for the fasci….those are cool….I like having those like in all our coins and shit. Looks bad ass. “Like don’t fuck with us…we funded hitler and then kicked his ass and made you like it!”

        2. Yes. Give them and inch and they’ll take it a mile.

          Why is no one even pointing out that this flag is on a memorial for South Carolinian soldiers who died fighting an invading army? Every single article on this never mentions this.

          1. “An invading army.” Listen to you. What are you, 130 years old?

            Look, I know that there are folks who refer to that war as “The War Between the States” or, even, “The War of Northern Agression.” My favorite, actually, comes from RAH, who called it “The Second American Revolution” in his book The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

            But that doesn’t play, and you know it.

            The idea that you have to oppose your “enemies” on every ground out of fear is stupid, and sounds like Red vs Blue bullshit. I will support Democrats where (if) they advance freedom. I will support Republicans where (if) they advance freedom. But this fight?

            This is not a fight for libertarians.

            Take the flag down, leave the flag up, Idon’t care either way. It becomes our fight if (when) it becomes CRIMINAL to display/sell the flag. Until that happens, I couldn’t care less what symbol they hang display.

            1. I will support Democrats where (if) they advance freedom.
              ———

              how often do you get to do that? Not that GOPers are much better but this smacks a bit of SJW

              1. I’ll be honest, other than holding pointed discussions with Team Red and Team Blue folks, I haven’t figured out how to support the libertarian cause in our current elected officials. I make sure to point out the good things on each side to the other (dems are almost acceptable on immigration, repubs approach decent on some forms of regulation) and talk about freedom and libertarian ideals.

                However, beyond this, I am not sure.

            2. “This is not a fight for libertarians.

              Take the flag down, leave the flag up, Idon’t care either way. It becomes our fight if (when) it becomes CRIMINAL to display/sell the flag. Until that happens, I couldn’t care less what symbol they hang display.”

              This exactly.

            3. I think, Simon, that RAH is referring to the war that deposed Nehemiah Scudder’s theocracy

              1. I would believe that. Moon was my first RAH book (blame my dad, he made me read that and watch Brazil before I went into High School), so I didn’t know the whole story then. I always assumed it was the Civil War since he says it was unsuccessful.

            4. “This is not a fight for libertarians.”

              For some reason, you assume that all or even most of the commenters here are actually libertarians.

              1. Or real libertarians 😉

              2. Gurble. You are correct — this is probably a mistake. See DenverChipperJ below. I also recognize that libertarians are not all LPers.

                However, this is a libertarian magazine and website. I think it is safe to assume that libertarianism is a general portion of the discussion. No different than going to Christianity Today and assuming that the discussion should revolve, primarily, around that particular faith.

            5. What if it was a Crucifix, or a Crescent Moon, or a Star of David? Would it be a fight for Libertarians then? Indifference is an interesting Libertarian take on such a charged symbol being used by public institution.

              1. SSW, what would you suggest? I am interested in hearing how the basic tenants of libertarianism should guide this discussion. Since the Battle Flag is so historically significant, how does that change the discussion? Please advise.

            6. I called it an invading army because that is what it is.

              We don’t call it “taking a waltz into Nazi occupied France.” We call it the invasion of Normandy.

              “Take the flag down, leave the flag up, Idon’t care either way. It becomes our fight if (when) it becomes CRIMINAL to display/sell the flag. Until that happens, I couldn’t care less what symbol they hang display.”

              And you somehow think they’re just going to stop here?

              1. Oh, no, Arisuka. I don’t. I full expect the left to try and silence this symbol as a form of “hate speech” and make it illegal to display, even in a private residence. So I will spare all my vitriol for them when they try to chop at the first ammendment. I don’t want to get bogged down in an issue that isn’t as important. This is not a hill I want to die on, or, hell, even show up on. It isn’t important to me.

                As for the “invading army” business, call it what you will. I just think using that term is going to lose you more support than win, even if you are right.

          2. ohh yah it is a big conspiracy…come on dude…just honest mistakes by the media.

          3. Hear hear. My ancestors were among those who died (fortunately after contributing to the gene pool). They weren’t slave holders. They didn’t even like the practice. But they did not appreciate being invaded because of the monster Lincoln’s territorial ambitions. A memorial to them is appropriate. As noted above, the simple answer is to replace the battle flag with the first flag of the Confederacy. That’ll confuse the hell out of the morons who know nothing of the actual history, such as Mr. SimonJester below.

            1. haha. Name calling is fun. Unfortunately, mshults, not everyone is as ignorant as you assume, and just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean that s/he is ignorant of the matter.

              Which “First Flag”? Are you referring to the Stars and Bars? Or do you mean the Stainless Banner? Or the Blood Stained banner?

              I assme you mean the Stars and Bars, since it is the only one without the Battle flag emblazoned on it, as well. Which would be fine. (But how many stars? How many of the states are you wanting to remember?) Or how about the SC Sovereignty flag? But, do we have the original? Or the one without the cresent and tree?

              But, then again, I was fine with the Battle Flag as well. Or the Gadsden flag.

              And, you misunderstand. I am not saying they need to have the flag up or down. I just think this isn’t something libertarians need to get hot and heavy about. It doens’t seem like a big deal to the foundations of libertarianism.

      2. It’s not like communists ever killed anyone or enslaved generations of people.

        1. Is the state using communist symbols?

          1. I know the threading is terrible at Reason, but I was responding to this;

            Meanwhile, Occupy rallies can have Communist flags and nobody cares. Obama campaign offices can have Cuban flags, but that’s not important….

            Do try to keep up.

            1. There is a big difference between some dipshits waving flags at a rally and a state government displaying it.

              1. the state had it on the site of a Confederate museum. There might be a link. Regardless, what does this accomplish beyond the feelz?

            2. I fail to see how this is threadings fault…

          2. Hmmm, slavery existed under the American flag longer than it did the Confederate one. I assume that any who believe the Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery and racism must also think the same about the Stars and stripes. Supposing such a person was intellectually honest, that is.

            1. If the US was founded for the express purpose of maintaining slavery then you might have a point, but it wasn’t and you don’t.

              1. Neither was the CSA. That’s a history written by the victors.

                1. and also by the authors of the Declaration of Secession and the Cornerstone Address, but I won’t interrupt your racist-glorifying circlejerk.

        2. That doesn’t count because they did it with Good Intentions?.

      3. With Walmart’s announcement to pull merchandise today, we are essentially branding anyone with confederate paraphernalia a racist. HuffPo is already calling out the troops to search for flags. An FBI tip-line will probably be available next week.

        1. You know the nazis had a brand they gave to the jews.

          1. You’re doing it wrong.

            You know who ELSE branded people in a racist witch hunt?

            1. “I saw Bubba with the devil!”

            2. Ordo Xenos?

              1. +1 Servo-Skull.

            3. Dan Snyder?

            4. the confederacy?

          2. The idea is to tiptoe right up to the Godwin line but not cross it. You stepped right over it.

            1. Screw that. With all of the Nazi wannabes around these days, better to go Godwin early, anyway. Who cares what Mike says about it?

          3. +1 piece of flair.

            1. 1 piece of flair? That’s not even the bare minimum! You do want to express yourself, don’t you?

              1. Should have been +37 pieces of flair.

          4. The Nazis also had a brand they gave to gays, but gays kept it and made fashionable accessories out of it.

      4. Strengthening the connection between Southerners and the GOP isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It’s only bad thing if you’re a non-Southerner who hates Southerners and then probably already hates the GOP.

        Some non-Southern Americans have a really dated view of the South. SC elected Haley and Scott after all.

        1. Some people get their views of southerners from Deliverance, like others get their views of pot smokers from Up in Smoke. You’ll likely never overcome these views, as uninformed and bigoted as they are.

      5. Stop defining yourself in opposition to the left for five seconds and actually analyze something on its own merits. You seem to be assuming that Paul, and every other Republican criticizing it, doesn’t genuinely believe what they’re saying. The fact that some people might make similar claims about other things that you think are ok has nothing to do with the merits of this case.

        “Meanwhile, Occupy rallies can have Communist flags and nobody cares. Obama campaign offices can have Cuban flags, but that’s not important….”

        Occupy wasn’t exactly the most respected or successful group in recent American history. I think some people here spend way too much time reading left-wing news sites and get a really distorted picture of what the average person thinks. More people viewed Occupy negatively than positively by a significant margin. Also, a flag at a protest is a bit different from a state government flying it. I’m pretty sure a lot of people would care if California decided to fly the Hammer and Sickle. Also, the comparison to the Cuban flag makes no sense. It was the flag of Cuba for decades before Castro came to power, and Cuban exiles who hate Castro with the power of 1000 suns still take pride in that flag.

        1. I think Papaya and Cali are both right somehow.

        2. Stop defining yourself in opposition to the left for five seconds

          One would think that defining yourself in opposition to collectivism would be a defining, and nearly universal, feature of Libertarians.

      6. I don’t find a slippery slope argument completely untenable here …

        But I just don’t see this slippery slope leading anywhere. South Carolina gets rid of their flag. Mississippi redraws theirs. Who cares? The only good thing about the flag to me is that it pisses of many of the right people. But it also pisses off some people who would otherwise possibly listen to pro freedom arguments.

        1. +1 for Who Gives a Shit!

        2. The slope has already lead to defining individuals/groups based-on any “symbol” that is deemed unacceptable. Ultimately, those individuals/groups have no rights, and anyone associated with them, however loosely, is also a target.

      7. This is a victory for the left, because they can strengthen their connection between Southerners and the GOP and racism. (The connection of that flag with Democrats will be glossed over.)

        Meh.

        The democrats seem to be actively antagonizing people in the South – and border states. That’s not actually a path to electoral dominance.

        Also, the democrats obsessions with race is turning off a lot of people outside the ‘black community’. Also not smart over the long haul.

      8. Next from Reason comes “the libertarian case for Boss Hogg”….’why the duke boys racist car is unacceptable’ and we know who painted the roof….the biggest villain of all…the racist uncle Jesse.

        Roscoe Pico train for Attorney General…at least he isn’t racist….Enis for head of NASA…he isn’t racist.

        1. Jeb Bush for President…give him credit guys …not very racist.

          1. I am going to use this slogan for Hillary. “Hillary Clinton, not very racist!”

        2. I believe it was Roscoe P. Coltrane.

          1. gabeh73 is using the phonetic spelling…

            1. Now if we can just all admit to the reality that “whistling dixie” is in fact hate speech.

            2. Now if we can just all admit to the reality that “whistling dixie” is in fact hate speech.

              1. Do we have to burn any Lynyrd Skynyrd albums?

                1. You must suck Neil Young’s dick or else you are a gay hater and a racist. Fact. Science.

                2. Just “Street Survivor”.

        3. That’s Sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane to you, sir. Pico Train, lol!

      9. I don’t know about that. There is a pretty clear line with lots of precedent protecting individual expression, including flag waving. This is about a state that officially requires it to be displayed. And it looks like the state legislature will probably take it down, not courts or Feds. I Haven’t heard any serious suggestion of banning private use of the flag. When people start getting in trouble for the confederate flag on their truck, then I’ll worry.

        On a side note, they should remove the US flags from public schools. Not because it is offensive, but because schools shouldn’t be indoctrination camps with daily loyalty oaths.

        1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2BfqDUPL1I

          pledge brainwashing…whitest kids classic

        2. “On a side note, they should remove the US flags from public schools. Not because it is offensive, but because schools shouldn’t be indoctrination camps with daily loyalty oaths.”

          My god, have you ever seen a public school teacher’s reaction if you don’t stand up and recite the pledge? When I was in 7th grade, I decided not to do it one day, and boy, it was a category 5 shitstorm.

          (I’ll confess that I mainly did it to be “edgy” and provocative, not under any principle. I wasn’t being disruptive or anything, I just sat there with my hands folded and stared at the wall.)

        3. When people start getting in trouble for the confederate flag on their truck, then I’ll worry.

          By then it will be too late.

          1. So we must fly the Confederate flag on government property or else free speech will be crushed? That’s seriously the argument people are making? Somehow the other 48 states (I’m excluding Mississippi) have managed to make it this far without flying it.

            1. Its on a goddamn war memorial you moron. What’s next? Tear down the monument because it offends some people?

              1. It’s at their statehouse. They’re moving the flag to a museum, it’s not like they’re burning it. There’s no reason to fly it on statehouse grounds.

            2. So we must fly the Confederate flag on government property or else free speech will be crushed?

              And, obviously, continuing to fly the flag will not impose slavery or increase racism, either.

            3. It’s on a war memorial on the statehouse grounds. It used to fly over the statehouse, below the U.S. and S.C. flags. Moving it to the memorial was a
              “compromise,” aka, a half-step towards its inevitable removal from the statehouse grounds.

        4. When people start getting in trouble for the confederate flag on their truck, then I’ll worry.

          Well the rednecks can’t buy ’em at Wal-Mart or on e-bay, so you won’t be seeing ’em on trucks for much longer.

        5. There is nothing wrong with the U.S. flag. It is the best (at the time) government where individual freedoms are actually protected(still have to fight for them though). Nothing wrong with protesting the wrongs in this country just like nothing is wrong with celebrating the right things in this country.

        6. On another side note, they should also be taken down from all places of worship. But that’ll never happen.

          1. Places of worship are private institutions of voluntary membership. Id support their flying the Nazi flag before supporting them taking down the American flag.

            1. Correction: before supporting them being forced, or even politely asked, to take down the American flag.

              1. Right-o. You misunderstand because I was unclear. Sorry.

                I support their right to fly the Stars and Stripes, or any other flag. I just don’t like it, that’s all.

      10. What’s next?

        A campaign to rename the Rhodesian ridgeback?

        1. Zimbabwean Trigger Hound?

      11. How? The GOP fought a war to get rid of that flag.

        How can this be a boon to the flags’ creators?

        That point needs to be made, over and over–a Democrat put that flag backup, in the 60’s as the CRA was coming up–and a Repuiblican forced the damned thing back down. Again.

      12. This is a victory for the left because it is an acceptance of political censorship, and an abandonment of free speech . The confederate flag is a a symbol whose meaning is not particularly clear, it means different things to different people and a number of blacks certainly fought and died for it, but ii is surely not more reprehensible that the swastika, the flag of the soviet union or communist north korea, or ISIS or perhaps the UN . Did the hate group composed of a single person in Charlstown even claim this symbol as their own ? What dos the confederacy and states rights have to do with one insane young murderer ? It is not the elimination of a particular symbol from commerce and the states that once flew it that matters to the left, it is the elimination of a symbol. Because once it is accepted as normal and beneficial to eradicate a symbol, the the eradication of words and ideas, and the people who espouse them , is next, and much easier.

        1. It’s as if the book “1984” was dropped in the memory hole…

    3. Well that’s popular. Someone said it earlier, Rs do not want to die on this hill.

      Yet no one tells us what hill we should die on!

      1. 2nd Amendment. That’s a good one.

        1. +1 AR-15

      2. What the Sam Hill!

    4. Rand is clearly trying to get over his guilt for the racist letters he never apologized for. I also wonder if perhaps Rand is anti-semitic? Where does he stand on creating a big wall to keep the good jewish people safe from ISIS?

  2. …rejecting groupthink…

    A fine notion indeed.

    1. Don’t tell me what to do!

  3. I thought a big part of being conservative meant picking a “side” and attacking the other.

    Ahem.

    1. Something something pickup trucks.

  4. Hooray for meaningless gesture!

    1. meaningless? I’m sure he was asked a question- but if he get’s any more of the African American vote because of his stances on these things, it could be a big deal…

      sorry, couldn’t keep a straight face.

    2. Isn’t flying the flag in the first place a meaningless gesture?

      1. all gestures have meaning… but it has no impact.

        1. Ever been hit in the face by a flapping flag?

          1. That question is more entertaining without any “l”‘s.

            1. You win the Internet today!

            2. I anticipated the first but not the second. Excellent!

            3. beat me too it. Noice!

          2. “Oh, saaay can you see, by the dawn’s early light “. . . Blah blah blah.

            Statist idol worship

      2. It’s an idol for statists. They salute it, they sign its praises.

      3. Meaning is a funny thing.

    3. What do you mean? Soave is inspired, and The Daily Beast says this will “make us repentant of our past behavior”….now I can stop using my cat o’ nine tails.

      1. +1 hair shirt

        1. I have one of those anyway, but mine is natural — I am scottish and italian. Cozy sweater every day.

          1. Doesn’t sound like a real Scotsman…

      2. our past behavior

        My German and Norwegian ancestors were plowing up permafrost and rocks on the prairies of the just-barely-a-state Minnesota during that time. Exactly WTF is it that I’m supposed to repent of? Hubert Humphrey? Jesse Ventura? “The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald”? The Vikings 4 losses in 4 Superbowl appearances? Signing Brett Favre?

        OK. The last one I’ll give ya but fuck a bunch of this collective guilt over shit that happened 150 years ago.

        My people on my dads side of the family were all German? Obviously at some point in the deep history of my family, the fooking proto-Italians invaded their land and likely took captives, slaves, and murdered a shitload of fellow tribesmen. Can I demand that every fucking Italian restaurant in the US remove any symbol of Italy because history?

  5. Putting people before an agenda or broad prejudices puts us all in a much better place. It can, and should, make us repentant of our past behavior. It did for me.

    What the fuck is “our past behavior”?!? This asshole calls himself an individualist and then instantly turns around and social signals with collective guilting? Fuck him.

    You know what the actual “putting people before an agenda or broad prejudices” is? Not giving a fuck–one way or the other–about symbols and flags and shit, and only being interested in individuals.

    1. Precisely.

      *Raises EPI’S MOM flag*

    2. I think he’s referring to his personal behavior as the “Southern Avenger” radio personality. Apparently he would wear a Confederate battle flag wrestling mask and march in Charleston parades, among other things.

      1. Irrelevant. His past behavior is his. Even if he is using “our past behavior” to actually mean “my past behavior”, that’s not how it comes across. He should either learn to write or learn not to sound like he’s collectively guilting everyone.

        1. That’s how it comes across to the rest of us. The writing is fine. He’s talkin’ like a preacher agitating for personal redemption.

          1. If you say so. I’d still make more of an effort to not use collective terms just to be clear, but that’s me.

            1. For what it’s worth, I read it as an acknowledgement that everyone has things in their past that they are not proud of. That as as we grow in wisdom we think, “how the fuck did I believe that?”

              For me, it was my decision to purchase an album by The Offspring.

              1. Well, we do need to keep em separated.

    3. As Serious Man pointed out, he’s referencing his personal history. By “us,” I don’t think he’s referring to everyone in society, but rather people who in the past have failed to “put people before an agenda or broad prejudices” as he admittedly did. I could be wrong, but I think your reading it uncharitably.

    4. Uhh, royal “our.” I think that’s the correct way to use royal? I don’t know, but he obviously means “our” own personal past behavior.

    5. I for one wish to repent the 100 years in which I was a racist between 1860 and 1960. I feel better now.

  6. And then there’s this asshole.

    zenmusubi 35 minutes ago
    The confederate flag stands for much more than racism. It is the symbol of hate-filled egoism characteristic of the republican conservative. It is the symbol of hatred against women, minorities, LGBT, progress, and true patriotism. It is the drunken hater in his or her pick up truck waving it in the back. It is he gun toting loud mouth who boasts the ability to protect while scaring average Americans. It is the NRA. It is the paranoia of southerners about blacks poisoning them, taking their jobs, and taking their education. It is fear of any foreigner that overcomes American caring and altruism. It is the coward on the sidelines rooting for those in authority, who wants their government to thrive contemplating destruction of our moral and ethical establishment. It is the same southerner who threw bricks at school children as they entered a previously all white school.

    1. That’s a mighty big flag.
      I’m totally hating on it.

    2. So I guess all the black guys who wear confederate flag gear don’t count?

      1. We all know that white supremacy makes them wear it.

      2. Nope. the half a dozen dudes are now disenfranchised.

    3. Someone got a toilet swirly from a mean redneck in high school.

      1. Wait, what have you heard?

        (looks around nervously)

        1. he said swirly, not rape.

          1. *spits tobacco out of mouth
            “can’t rape the willing, huh epilady?” -some guy from Deliverence

    4. Jefferson Davis was rabidly anti-LGBT.

      1. Well, if we are to draw the same conclusions as some historians concerning a young Lincoln’s penchant for sharing his bed with his male friends…then, yeah.

      2. True story: When Oscar Wilde came to America he really wanted to meet Jeff Davis for some reason. Davis had him out to dinner at the plantation.

        1. Huh, I didn’t know that Davis was gay. What happens if that comes out along with new information that the CSA was okay with homosexuals?

          1. The intersectionality equivalent of Wrestlemania 3.

    5. Is that Neil Young?

    6. “It is the symbol of hatred against women, minorities, LGBT, progress, and true patriotism.”

      Yeah, the Stars and Stripes is pretty awful.

      1. You know, from the winning side’s perspective, that flag flew over all of the states since the country was founded, including the states in rebellion during the rebellion.

    7. “It is he gun toting loud mouth who boasts the ability to protect while scaring average Americans.”

      But what does the confederate flag have to do with police officers?

  7. My fellow members of the stupid party are being just a tiny bit less stupid today. Now as long as we can keep anyone with the last name Bush from getting the nomination, we might just have a chance.

    1. BOOOOOOSH!

      NO FAIR! HE MAKES US LOOK BAD!

      1. Oh Tulpa. Taking pathetic to new heights, as always. Feeling a little lonely today? Did you burn through another Fleshlight in 5 days again?

        1. He can’t even keep the narrative straight.

          1. That’s because he doesn’t have a narrative. He’s just an idiot trying to get people to respond. No coherent narrative required. Except for the heavy Fleshlight use.

            1. Doesn’t that presume he can get an erection?

              [citation needed]

              1. He has an unlimited script for Viagra. And Seroquel.

                1. I assume Seroquel is somehow related to Squirrel Girl. Because I can’t imagine what else you would mean other than suggesting PB spends its evenings with a micro-fleshlight, too-much viagra (Holy Eff! It got to 2.3 inches today!) and some Squirrel Girl erotic fanart.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squirrel_Girl

      2. Hey ButtliKKKer. You do realize that your fav political party is the reason that flag was flying over the state house in the first place right ?

    1. Can’t figure out if the commentariat there is neo-nazis, saying neo-nazi stuff ironically, or if it’s just a few trolls trying to make them look like neo-nazis.

    2. I was reading along until “Can’t blame a degenerate entertainment industry on Jews.”

      What the hell? That came outta left field.

  8. No one who is bitching up a storm about the Confederate flag right now is ever going to vote Republican no matter who the candidate is. Nor is this going to stop the media from lambasting Republicans on the issue some more. They don’t need many or really even a single actual Republican to go out and defend the flag. It’s just a dumb narrative they’ve created to exploit the South Carolina shooting.

    1. It’s probably the best political move for Rand.

      The people bitching most likely won’t vote for him, but it’ll help sway moderates. (Like when Reagan put up those Billboards with Muhammad Ali)

      1. But those were because Regan was the only man alive to KO ali…

        That’s what they taught us in grade school in the 80s.

        1. Oh Reagan was great. This one time, Louis Lane died, and Reagan flew against the spin off the Earth so fast that he went back in time and saved her.
          Then there was the time that Reagan, Marge Thatcher, and a Pollock went into a bar and beat communism at darts.

  9. Can we pull down all the statues of Woodrow Wilson next?

    1. why did anyone ever put one up?

        1. no comma. not “why, did anyone ever put one up?”

          I was questioning WHY anyone ever put one up…

          1. Spencer-

            During his tenure, the Harrison Act, the Income Tax, and the direct election of Senators all passed… not to mention he re-segregated the Army.

            He is a progessive hero.

    2. nice Democrat Party you have there. be a shame if its slaver roots and present one upping SJWing caused its own immolation.

  10. you know he doesn’t believe that…

  11. a reminder of Dylan Roof’s horrific murders:

    Did Roof leave confederate flag death cards on the bodies, like Robert Duval in Apocalypse?
    I must not have heard that part.

  12. This is only the beginning. Next will be a call for a complete purge of Confederate statues and memorials throughout the country.

    Removing a rebel flag from the grounds of a state legislature is reasonable enough, but full on purging references to the CSA seems disturbingly totalitarian.

    1. No way, there’s not enough momentum for that. Maybe July 4th will keep the issue alive a little longer than otherwise, but this isn’t going to be in the news long enough for memorials to be threatened. Ta-Nehisi Coates and Salon can write all the essays they want in July and August, but the shooting and the general outrage will no longer be on the front page.

    2. Already underway. Huffington Post has asked readers to send locations of CSA memorials to them for the outrage mill.

      1. Everything regarding flags aside, this is a perfect example of what happens when you give in to braying bullies, even to just be polite. You merely encourage them. Without exception. And man, they can never get enough. Not ever.

        1. The optics of the whole situation is also really shitty.

          There was already a large group of people who objected to the flag. These murders happen. The flag had nothing to do with the murders, but they make the murders all about the flag because they know they can’t use the deaths for anything else.

          So, in a way few people will acknowledge, these people’s lives got traded for a useless fucking flag.

          1. TEAM OUTRAGE is always looking for more corpses to climb on, NutraSweet. And they will find them.

            1. I’m SO MAD that those other people are MAD!

              1. And so I want to…ban Mad Magazine….just in case.

            2. TEAM OUTRAGE is always looking for more corpses to climb on, NutraSweet. And they will find them.

              Or create them.

          2. In the past they would have gone for the guns. Knowing how completely pointless that is now they chose the flag instead. In terms of a “loss” it’s small potatoes.

            They may try to expand it to ripping down statues of Lee or Stonewall Jackson, but then they’ll overplay their hand as they always do and annoy the non-dedicated SJW.

            Sometimes you win by giving a bit of ground as Haley and Paul just did. I haven’t seen any polls, but I’d bet many Southerners are okay with this. They were democratically elected and I trust they are keyed into what their constituencies want – even in the culture war.

            1. There will be the ones that will die on this hill. This stupid, stupid hill. And they’ll die insisting that the flag isn’t about racism and convince absolutely no one.

            2. Maybe the SJW’s need to visit The Grove in October to show their displeasure with the Confederate Flag. I’m thinking it might not go well for them.

            3. the monument to confederate dead in Arlington has a black confederate soldier on it (there were a few thousand blacks who fought for the confederacy). Will the monument have to be edited or destroyed ?

          3. When Roof took his pic with the Rebel flag he was also wearing sunglasses.

            They may be next on the list.

            1. This photo clearly shows the killer with flowers prominently displayed!

              BAN FLOWERS

      2. That’s getting personal. My ancestors lived in a house preserved on a Civil War battlefield.

    3. Next will be a call for a complete purge of Confederate statues and memorials throughout the country.

      Way ahead of you there.

      1. That’s no different then the Taliban blowing up the Buddhas of Bamiyan.

    4. Already under way in Tennessee. Mayor of Nashville and a state legislator or Congress critter (Simpson is the name can’t remember the office for certain) are calling for the removal of a bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest from the capital building.

  13. Hmm, this is all a little too encouraging. Isn’t it about time for some Republican to make a comment about rape?

  14. OMG you racists, don’t you know that no Republican politician supports removing the flag, and also that Obama is finally trying to talk hard truth to Americans about racism.

    So now, nearing the end of his second term, Obama has clearly decided to just state the obvious. At last.

    And more from Canada’s state broadcaster, paid for by the state, but not controlled by the state. Aren’t you Americans glad we are paying for a Very Smart Man to educate you about your own country?

    1. You should probably ignore every vapid, holier-than-thou article by Canadians about the U.S., particularly in terms of race relations. Because we’re busy pretending our policies towards natives are actually good.

      1. I’d love to, except that, in small amount, I’m paying for this garbage, which in turn increases my least favorite Canadian quality, arrogant blindness with respect to US.
        And who the devil is pretending our policies are good? In another breathtaking example of Prime Canadian Hypocrisy, everyone HATES the policies, but no one is ever doing a thing to change them, just hammers in more of them.

        1. Anyone talking about collective American guilt for race relations begin to then wax poetically on the success of Canada’s wonderful multicultural society. It’s just vapid nationalist grandstanding.

        2. That’s why I suggest the CBC solicit donations to survive. My guess is, since most people who watch the CBC are just braindead or left-wingers, they wouldn’t raise much. This would signal it’s worth in the market.

          It bothers me too I pay for this vapid crap.

        3. The thing you need to realize is that Canada has no meaningful positive national accomplishments, and as a result Canadians have nothing to take pride in except by emphasizing the negative things about the US that Canada (supposedly) doesn’t have.

          Just for example, Canada doesn’t have manned spaceflight capacity. They didn’t land on the moon. They didn’t win World War II. They didn’t launch a political revolution that changed the world.

          So what do Canadians have to feel proud about? Well, at least they banned slavery first!!
          And they have national health care! See? They can only find things to be proud of by comparing themselves to the US and emphasizing differences in which the US compares negatively (in their eyes). Consequently they tend to latch onto political criticism from within the US, mostly from the left, and embrace that and try to contrast Canada with the US by making Canada more of a lefty ideal.

          1. I don’t know that Canada doesn’t have ‘any meaningful’ national accomplishments; it has produced notable figures. But I agree, for a country of our size and abilities, we could and should do more. Canada didn’t shake the foundation of Western civilization indeed. No indigenous car manufacturer is one that annoys me. I think this has a lot to do – I mean it’s probably the most significant factor – that the country exists besides a mammoth innovative country. It’s not even a fair fight on so many levels. I think, though, it holds its own.

            As for WWII, no we didn’t ‘win it’ but we did contribute significantly to the fight.

            I like to quote a Mexican revolutionary whenever such discussions arise. ‘Poor Mexico! So far from God, and so close to the United States!’

            1. I dunno, car-wise, snowmobile was invented here (or out east there,to be accurate), and there were a few other Canadian firsts, not to go all Heritage Moment. Not much you can expect of a nation of 35 million, and that’s now. It’s a country in line with Belgium or Netherlands, not Germany, US or, hell, even Poland.
              It’s just, Canadians need to think in their own terms, not copy others (NHS, multiculturalism, $15 minimum wage) then grandstand.

            2. Isn’t Canada just a bunch of pre-loyalist Yankee traders and shipbuilders and post-loyalist American refugees? That’s what Nova Scotia cousins tell me.

            3. The real tragedy of Canada is that it could have had French food, British culture, and American technology, and instead it ended up with British food, American culture, and French technology.

          2. I agree with Rufus. Canada certainly has ‘meaningful’ national accomplishments, but ultimately they’re smaller in scale than their local neighbour. Sure, developing insulin is great and all that, but it’s still less world changing than say, the American standardization of parts. The result is grandstanding to compensate. Canadian nationalism has also been desperate since the 60s to separate us from Americans/Brits.

            1. My loyalist great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, upon exile from New York to Canada, was fond of saying “these feet will never touch Yankee land again”. And, he didn’t.

              But all of his grandchildren immigrated to America.

              So much for “famous last words”, eh?

          3. 1 less down and lot’s of receivers in motion….

      2. Bingo. Canadian media loves these sort of ‘look at those crazy American’ stories.

        Also, it’s time for the CBC to go to a fundraiser format like Vermont public television.

        Think you’re so cool and vital? Take it directly to the people and let us see.

        1. If only we had hard-core, Thatcheritte Conservative party up here. I’d be on ditching CBC in a flash. You want it? here’s a tax cut, donate away.

        2. From a certain perspective, it really is a kind of brainwashing effort. The Canadian establishment’s power depends upon Canadians being loyal to Canada as a separate entitty from the US. Reinforcing “Canadianness” is essential to making sure Canadians support the Canadian government. Canada gets way too much media from the US, so the Canadian establishment literally needs to have a government funded television station to reinforce the “Canadian” point of view and identity as separate from the US.

          They often even discuss this more or less openly, although it’s phrased as preserving Canadian “culture”, whatever that means. As if Canada is some sort of ancient distinct tradition that is endanger of dying out. Half the time what most Canadians mean by Canadian culture is simply socialism. Medicare? That’s part of our CULTURE! Our IDENTITY cas a nation depends on it!

          1. Not just in Canada – all of Europe runs their media as a firewall from US culture. They are even more obnoxious, especially Nordic countries, where media get money from government, so they have to toe the politically correct line. Which to me is utterly insane, but I’m a stupid Slavic white male, so it’s hard for me to see Beethoven, Molierre or Cesane being in danger from the US. And if the modern French/German/Swedish/whatever artists can’t hack it, then it is because they are pale shadows at best, and antithesis at worst, of their more worthy spiritual ancestors.
            That’s why I have a huge soft spot for Trailer Park Boys – 100% Canadian show, yet 100% not stereotypically Canadian, as CBC would present it.

            1. Like I said, it’s not easy being ‘Canadian’. Forever, navel-gazing. The differences between the two countries are less than what nationalists would like to believe.

              If the USA were to annex Canada I think the majority of people would adjust just fine. I don’t think there are any major cultural mountains to overcome except for some distinctions like the way we govern. But the overall mentality, isn’t significantly different from America I reckon. We’re just a little more into the welfare stuff; then again, many of our socialist ideas were imported from the USA. Canada is not exactly a trail blazing place. But it’s still a nice place to live in its own safe way.

              I think people who come from bad or worse places appreciate Canada.

              1. Quebec is another matter.

            2. “Know what I’m siz-zayin?”

  15. This is humanity. It is a rejection of collectivist thinking. It is the epitome of sympathy. It’s grace. It’s love.

    Putting people before an agenda or broad prejudices puts us all in a much better place. It can, and should, make us repentant of our past behavior. It did for me.

    1. Shit. Epi said it first and better.

  16. I’d rather they focus on fighting a dyed piece of cloth than fighting the second amendment.

    1. Exactly. I’m finding this all very humorous. Now if we could get them to waste about 2000 legislative session-hours on renaming Columbus day, I’d be really happy.

      1. First Nations Remembrance Day?

  17. Is talking smack about the ISIS flag “punching down”?

    Also, why is attacking poor, southern rednecks not punching down?

    Discuss.

    1. Sorry Paul. You don’t get to decide what or when is “punching down”. I mean, if you were allowed to, it would completely remove their ability to use it against you! What good would that be?

    2. Also, why is attacking poor, southern rednecks not punching down?

      Because stupid racist redneck white trash sister-fucking meth-cooking illiterate teeth-missing idiots have white privilege.

      1. It’s attitudes like this that keep the south from rising again!

        1. That, and Rascal scooters.

          1. Ok, I laughed.

          2. And, by implication, obesity.

            1. God invented whiskey to prevent Irishmen from conquering the world, or so it’s said. Similarly, god invented sugar to prevent Southerners from keeping their toes.

              1. I lol

              2. Without whiskey, the Irish would have taken over the world through sheer numbers.

                We already breed like rabbits on ecstasy, imagine how many kids we’d have if we weren’t periodically afflicted with whiskey dick.

                1. But before that, you’d have to once and for all resolve the eternal conflict with your ancient racial enemy, the Irish!

      2. That’s gold.

  18. Next will be a call for a complete purge of Confederate statues and memorials throughout the country.

    Just expunging the ones around Gettysburg will require a newly created federal agency.

    1. Huh. Bet they go after the easier target of schools named after figures from the Confederacy.

  19. Uh, the *US* flag flew over a slave society longer than the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia ever did (never).

    1. Stay on narrative!

  20. And this is precisely why NOBODY is ever allowed to rock a Charlie Chaplin mustache ever again. Until the end of time.

    1. This is the real tragedy.

    2. You know who else rocked a Charlie Chaplin mustache?

      1. Roderick Spode?

        1. Those stories are exceptionally fun to read out loud.

      2. Tallulah Bankhead sorta rocked Chaplin’s ‘stache. So, I’m going with her.

  21. What I don’t understand is how this is connected to the racist churchshooter guy. I thought he was some kind of racist hipster and only had obscure racist symbols in his pictures. Surely the confederate flag is far too mainstream.

    1. Nah, a google search does find him doing some flag waving. I can’t help but think the evil hipster racist fuck is doing it ironically.

  22. Tear down those crosses before the Klan sets them ablaze!!#

  23. Rand has an infamous connection with the “Southern Avenger”, distancing himself further is the smartest thing he can do.

  24. If I thought getting rid of the flag would actually accomplish anything except embolden various Progressive assholes to go after more things they don’t like, I would be be fine with getting rid of it. I don’t care what a state flag looks like. If people find it offensive, change it. It is a flag.

    The problem is the flag is a symbol of something larger alright but it is not what these people think it is. The flag, or rather getting rid of the flag, is a symbol for how Progressives use mass culture to bully and take away people’s freedom and enforce conformity. Okay, so we will tell the rednecks to put away their confederate flags. Even assuming they will do that, it won’t settle anything. The Progressives will just move onto something else and continue to do so until no one has any right to express themselves in any but a very narrow set of Progressive approved ways. Fuck that.

    1. Yes. Whatever one thinks of the Confederate flag–and let’s remember it’s just a fucking piece of cloth with a design on it–giving in to TEAM OUTRAGE bullies will not mollify them. Not ever. It will do the polar opposite, and will embolden them. Every victory doubles their desire for more.

      It astounds me that people can’t see that. They think that if they just give in, these people will go away. Guess what? They won’t.

      1. Look, I have it on the good authority that paying Danegeld makes Danes go away!

      2. Would you want Rand Paul choosing to resist the censorship fucks on this particular battlefield? Rand Paul cannot be mired in confederate quicksand, man. As much as many of us are far less perturbed by a historical symbol turned offbeat logo than the precious honey of a man called Jack Hunter, Rand Paul has to be pragmatic.

      3. That’s why it’s kinda important the Redskins hold their ground. If they don’t, the floodgates will open in sports.

      4. Honestly, all political calculations aside, what I think the correct response is to this bullshit outcry is to dismiss it as trivia. Really, some of us can’t handle being offended? Fuck, this country offends me on an hourly basis in more ways than I can count. Grow up, America.

    2. I agree with your concern and have been thinking about it as this has been going on. But I’ve come to the conclusion that there is a significant portion of the US that does not take well to being told what to believe and that they can’t live and think as they’d like to. This is something that has been alienating those types for a long time. I think it’s reasonable to push for a state to not fly this flag, but if the progs push it, they will go too far.

      Similar to your thoughts on the gay movement and how gay marriage will be a springboard to alienating much of the country.

      Progs are so insulated from the real world that they don’t realize that much of the country is reasonable enought to know that we can’t just ban things and everything will be puppy dogs and ice cream.

  25. Amazing how quickly supposedly smart people get hot to join a posse of idiots.

    1. Riot control, man. Riot control.

      The confederate flag is a meaningless collection of colors that is mostly either scoffed at or ignored due to its lack of modern significance.

      Clearly, establishment left-wingers have exploited a tragedy to lure Republicans onto a confederate battlefield only to be thwarted by reality, the which is that no Republican will fall on a flag staff mounted with an old symbol enriched with new power.

  26. Good for Rand.

  27. No flag is worth fighting for, frankly. The censorship aura is what goads me far more than the fucking race to eradicate a symbol that disturbs some.

    “I’m writing this column in a restaurant I frequent and am conscious every time a particular black server I’ve come to know walks by. I don’t want him to see the words “Confederate flag” and think I’m writing about it positively.”

    What? Jack Hunter, has your mind floated down the damn river? Even if the black dude was rude enough to read over your shoulder why the fuck would he automatically assume you love the confederacy? The paranoia here strikes me as flavored with the same grade of milquetoast that haunts left-wing trigger villages.

  28. When this is all over, only Arthur Ashe Jr. taunting those children will remain on Monument Ave.

    1. I love that statue.

  29. Next they’ll be saying that the Nazi flag is a symbol of genocide and antijewism.

  30. What fun we will have at the Struggle Meetings.
    Rand understands he has to get ahead of denunciations of wrong-things/think.
    It won’t save him.

  31. Stars and Bars lining for retailers?

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/…..7290.html#

  32. Rand Paul Backs Confederate Flag Removal, Calls It Symbol of Racism and Murder

    But the Q’aran and the Sickle&Hammer; are not, right? I just wanted to check before I started posting that, finally, ALL symbols of hatred and murder will be taken out or removed from our very sensitive eyes.

    1. I seriously doubt Rand Paul has a positive opinion of the hammer & sickle (which to my knowledge is not flown on government property anywhere in the US). Or the Quran for that matter.

    2. South Carolina should definitely take down the Hammer & Sickle.

      1. Redneck commies are the worst.

    3. “But the Q’aran and the Sickle&Hammer; are not, right?”

      I’m sure that if the Sickle&Hammer; were flying over state capitals, the denizens of this forum would praise the government for bravely standing up for people who Fought For What They Believed In.

      Or maybe you’re a bunch of fuckwit hypocrites.

  33. By all means, wave the Confederate battle flag proudly on your pickup truck or trailer park home. It doesn’t have a place on a state capitol.

    1. I agree with this. It shouldn’t be flown at state capitals as it is too divisive.

      I just think the next step is clearly to attack people who fly it on private property, which is what the left always does. You already have Huffington Post articles talking about how anyone flying the flag is a ‘traitor’ and historic Confederate monuments are already being vandalized.

      This will end the same way all left wing mobs do. You’ll see anyone who flies a confederate flag subject to outright harassment and rather than reporting on the people sending him death threats or vandalizing his property, the media will instead concentrate on the evil bigot with the flag. We’ve seen this about 5000 times before, and it always ends the same way – with left wing mobs destroying their enemies and pretending they’re noble and righteous the entire time.

      1. Sorry — in what parallel universe does the right to freedom of expression include a right to freedom from criticism?

        Yes, if you want to fly a Confederate battle flag as an advertisement that you’re a gigantic douche, feel free. But you’re going to get vociferously condemned for it by people who don’t see “traitors who killed hundreds of thousands of Americans in defense of slavery” as a group worth celebrating.

        1. Reading fail: as you are falsely conflating criticism, which was not mentioned, with harassment, which was.

          And the only reason you find care is because “people like you would never…..” – so you assume this harassment is great and you have nothing to worry about as you’ll always be on the side making the rules.

          You might want to brush up on some history and see how well that worked out for all others.

          Irregardless, appreciate you letting everyone know unequivocally that you’re nothing more than an authoritarian dick who knows what others should do, including whether they use an old flag for decoration.

          First they came for the…..

    2. It’s not a state capitol. It’s on a memorial on capitol grounds.

  34. UPDATE: eBay has informed BuzzFeed in a statement that the will ban the sale of Confederate flags and items containing the image.

    Even better! We’ll then have a Black Market for this stuff! Higher profits! Excitement!

    Thank you, American infantile oversensitiveness!

    1. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you create an entrepreneurial niche.

      *goes to claim “Suthenstuff.com” as a domain*

    2. Awesome. I hope they only ban it in US. Then you can have Nazi memorabilia, banned on Ebay Europe, coming from US, and Confederate stuff coming to US from Europe. Free trade in dubious (to put it mildly) symbols!

      To complete the circle of sanity profiting from insanity, both types of mercy are made in China.

      1. mercy = merch! Goddamn it firefox, I know of what I type.

        1. I kind of like the original phrasing, though.

  35. Soon there will be nothing left for white trash to be proud of. They’ll be left with just their fat wives, ugly children, shitty houses, trucks they can’t afford and dogs they’ve grown tried of kicking.

    1. They’ll always have David Allan Coe.

      1. OUTLAW COUNTRY!

        1. If only you actually looked like Cherylene.

      2. He’s from Ohio! (Pronounced Uh-hi-uh)

        1. (Pronounced Uh-hi-uh)

          IT IS NOT

          1. Made my point for me!

    2. or for the descendants of the blacks who fought for the confederacy either.

  36. Umm…the US flag is just as much a flag of racism and murder, if not more so.

    Don’t get me wrong, I see the issues with the confederate flag. But Paul and others are ignoring the bloody history of the Stars & Stripes, aren’t they?

    Didn’t the Stars&Stripes; fly over 80 years or so of slavery before the civil war? Didn’t the Stars&Stripes; fly over the 3/5s compromise and the Dred Scot decision?

    The Stars&Stripes; also flew over the genocidal push west, as the US Government ignored treaties duly authorized by Congress and nearly wiped out a people because of the color of their skin (and the fact they were on land the US wanted).

    1. The stars and stripes also flew over a country that has done and stood for some very noble things. The stars and bars not so much.

      1. the stars and bars flew over those states which seceded primarily because they paid 90% of federal revenues and received little but financial and economic exploitation in return, making it almost impossible for them to build a non-agricultural machine based economy.

        1. The state in question (South Carolina) cited attempts to limit slavery as the #1 reason for secession.

          http://www.civilwar.org/educat…..h_Carolina

          1. I guess that means anyone who ever even looks directly at that flag without total disgust just love themselves summer slavery.

            Idioit

    2. We are the best of killers, only to be eclipsed by scientific killers like the Nazis. So far, we are the only nation to kill with nuclear weapons (what would our forebears say about this?). This is a burden that cuts all kinds of ways.

  37. I’m in favor of burning every flag.

    1. Someday, we’ll have the technology to make flags burn while flying.

      1. That hope is what keeps me alive.

        1. Fusion reactors woven into each thread.

            1. Actually, thanks to advances in fusion theory, it’s now just 18 years away. At any given moment.

          1. All we really want is an edit feature, the thread doesn’t need nuclear stuff.

    2. Even the one of the Moon?

      1. If you mean one on the Moon, well, I think all six were knocked down, burned, then bleached by the energy of the sun. If you mean the flag of sovereign Luna, well, of course no one would burn that. It’s made of moonrock.

        1. Bless your heart 🙂

  38. In 1860 1.4% of white Americans owned slaves. 28% of free blacks owned slaves.The first lifetime black slave in America was owned by a free black man who had himself been previously sold into slavery. It’s not so cut and dried.

    1. Of course it isn’t. What ever is? Reality isn’t a convenient set of slogans.

    2. 1. What does this have to do with the issue at hand?

      2. The 1.4% figure is for the US as a whole (why would we look at the entire US when we’re talking about the Confederacy?) and only counts individual heads of households. Just under one third of families living in the CSA states in 1860 owned slaves.

      3. The 28% figure that is commonly cited strictly refers to New Orleans, which was in many ways different from the rest of the South and had probably the largest and most prosperous free black community in the South at the time, in a state with one of the largest slave populations. It cannot be assumed that that figure was the same for the entire South, let alone the entire country. Nearly half of free black people didn’t even live in slave states.

      4. Regardless of the % of free whites and free blacks who owned slaves, it’s disingenuous to compare the two without also mentioning the fact that 0% of white people were slaves, while about 90% of black people (closer to 95% in the South) were slaves, and that the vast majority of slave owners were white. Trying to downplay the racial inequality in American slavery just because not every single slave owner was white is nonsensical.

      1. 1. Blacks should be proud of the Confederate flag, they were part of it.

        2. 4.8% of southern whites owned slaves, not a third. A slave cost $40,000 in today’s money. No way 33% of southerns could afford that.

        3. Not sure that’s refers simply to N.O..

        4. 3/4s of colonial whites who came to America came as indentured servants/slaves.

        1. 1. This has got to be a fucking joke. That’s just too stupid to respond to.

          2. Again, that only counts the individual head of household as a slaveowner. Nearly a third of families owned slaves.

          http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html
          http://www.civilwarcauses.org/stat.htm

          3. Then find a reputable, academic source indicating otherwise. The only such source I have ever seen connected to the 28% number was a study strictly of New Orleans.

          4. First off, source? Secondly, there were significant legal and social differences between indentured servants and chattel slaves. Thirdly, indentured servitude was long over by 1860. In 1860, 0% of slaves were white and 0% of whites were slaves. 100% of slaves were black and about 90% of blacks were slaves.

        2. I was briefly taking Ice seriously until I read point #1.

    3. 5. The first lifetime black slave, at least whose name we know, was John Punch, who was sentenced to liftetime servitude (in contrast to two white indentured servants who he escaped with who were sentenced to servitude of less than ten years) 15 years before the Anthony Johnson/John Casor case. It is also generally accepted by most historians that slavery existed prior to these cases, only that these are ones that made it to civil court. Furthermore, the existence of one black slave owner in the 1600s doesn’t change the racially unequal nature of American slavery. I’m really not sure what the point you’re trying to make is.

      1. That blacks were slave owners.

        1. Again, what’s the point of that? Yes, some black people owned slaves, I know that, and anyone educated on the topic knows that. What does that have to do with the CSA or its flag, and how does that change the fact that the system of American slavery was nonetheless overwhemingly racist despite the existence of some black slaveowners?

          1. Thousands of blacks owned slaves. Thousands of blacks fought for the Confederacy under that flag. Modern blacks should be proud of that.

  39. You people all realize that to the average person none of these points made here matter, right?

    Confederate flag bad. Ban it. Bad dreams disappear.

    Denying history is the worst thing a culture can do. Accept the past and move forward. If that means a couple of Con. flags raised here and there who gives a fucken shit? That it’s a ‘symbol of hate’ is weak since people have argued the American flag in of itself is a ‘symbol of hate’ or ‘intolerance. People of this sort, let’s call them irrational muppets, will always latch on to inanimate objects to try and rationalize bad human behavior. It’s all so depressingly dumb.

    Companies can do whatever they want but marginalizing consumers like this over a social issue is wrongheaded in my view.

    1. Are you talking about the decisions by eBay and WalMart or South Carolina?

      1. Yeah. Sorry my comment was a little all over the map.

        1. You know who else was all over the map?

          1. a woodchipper?

      1. I’ve been reading American Gods. It turns out to have been a timely thing to read.

      2. Crimes against humanity.

    2. This particular argument is only tangentially about BANNING the Confederate Battle Standard. Nobody is calling for it to be censored if the person or institution sporting it ISN’T part of some level of government.

      (Yet. They’ll get around to it.)

      And on the basis that the Government shouldn’t gratuitously insult large swaths of people, I happen to agree that the Flag should not be displayed by the State government.

      Now, can we cease all public funding of NEA approved art that exists to insult Christians? Or is that Beyond The Pale?

      1. Okay, so will they fund art that incorporates the bad flag?

    3. Agreed.
      p.s: Sneak over the border and get yourself one of these before they’re banned, too.

  40. People of this sort, let’s call them irrational muppets, will always latch on to inanimate objects to try and rationalize bad human behavior.

    Animism is the word. With maybe a touch of totemism, too. Savages.

    1. [Grunts at Warty, waves wild hog femur bone, tosses it in the air, it becomes a spaceship.]

      1. That warnt no wild hog bone – that was an ape femur bone. Some of us (most of us?) used to eat each other.

  41. When it rains some people will bless it and look forward to the resulting spring flowers. Others will curse it and think the world is out to get them because they just washed their car.

    Offense is in the eye of the beholder. They choose, by maintaining a certain perspective, to be offended where someone else does not.

    Outlawing something because someone chooses to be offended by it is a ridiculous and ridiculously slippery slope. Unfortunately lately it seems we’ve already pushed off and started down the hill.

  42. I don’t see a problem with SC taking that flag down, but hopefully the GOP is not naive enough to think that doing this is going to buy them so much as one inch of slack from the left. I’ve already seen sneers that “Gov. Haley is just doing damage control”. Remember the mantra of “white privilege”: we’re all fucking racists and nothing we believe, say, or do will ever ever ever change that. Period.

  43. I agree with Paul. It’s one thing for private citizens to display the confederate flag for their own purposes, but flying it on government buildings is a different story. It constoitutes and endorsement of what it symbolizes.

    Also, I get the idea of regional pride and so forth, but that made a lot more sense while there were still people alive whose parents or grandparents fought in the civil war. You want to honor the legacy of people you knew and loved.

    But at this point, there isn’t anyone left alive that actually knew someone who fought in the civil war. There’s nobody left who has a reasonable claim being offended by taking down the flag.

    1. It’s interesting how close we are to events that often seem so long ago. My grandmother knew a couple of old people when she was a kid that fought in the Civil War and would tell stories about it. I’m just one person removed from talking to a veteran of a conflict that happened 150 years ago. Whoa.

      1. And John Tyler’s (10th President) Grandkids are still alive.

        1. Yeah, I heard about that. Crazy.

        2. Kay, maybe there’s a FEW out there. Not many.

          1. I wasn’t saying that to refute what you were saying, I just find it interesting.

      2. Yes, 20-30 years ago there were still a few people alive who at least knew or had known people who fought in the Civil War.
        Now, we’re another step removed.
        My point is that weve moved past a generational threshold where there is little claim to needing the flag to respect Civil War dead or anything to that effect. Because nobody alive has any Civil War dead left to remember, there aren’t even any 90 year old fogies whose grandparents fought in it.

        1. Because nobody alive has any Civil War dead left to remember, there aren’t even any 90 year old fogies whose grandparents fought in it.

          Isn’t this the exact same reason others shouldn’t view it as a symbol of sister and racism?

          Just sayin’

          1. Meh – slavery and racism that is…..

      3. My paternal grandfather was born in 1859, for what it’s worth.

    2. “But at this point, there isn’t anyone left alive that actually knew someone who fought in the civil war. There’s nobody left who has a reasonable claim being offended by taking down the flag.”

      Wouldn’t this point hold true for those offended by it being held up too? Nobody alive today knew any slaves.

      1. Actually, there might be a few. Anyone around 100 or more could have known an ex-slave.

        1. Right, same for Confederates. But let’s just assume they’re all dead for HazelMeade’s argument.

          1. It’s down to literally tens, I would imagine, since not every old person encountered a veteran of the war or an ex-slave.

      2. True.

        It’s a great opportunite for reconcilliation. Nobody knows anyone who was ever a slave. Nobody knows anyone who was ever a confederate soldier. It’s all ancient history.

        Although to be fair the confederage flag may also be a symbol of segregation. People still remember that.

        1. “Although to be fair the confederage flag may also be a symbol of segregation. People still remember that.”

          That’s a good point. Although, it definitely was the flag of a slave nation (well, a battle flag of a slave nation) it was never a flag of segregation, it’s just an association there.

    3. It’s one thing for private citizens to display the confederate flag for their own purposes, but flying it on government buildings is a different story. It constoitutes and endorsement of what it symbolizes.

      So Texas flying the Spanish flag endorses the wiping out of the Incas? Or does it simply show the history of flags the state was under at one time.\?

      I have deduced that many libertarians do, in fact, choose the collective over the individual when it comes to cultural matters that expose them to ridicule by “cool people.”

      1. That’s right Duke, no one could possibly disagree with you on the Confederate flag with out being a PC liberal ass-kissing cosmotarian like that dastardly Rand Paul. And once again, how the fuck is a state government flying a flag an example of individualism?

        1. I’m not sure why you stalk me the way you do, but this is a matter of history. We cannot expunge all the world of “offensive” symbols when they are indeed historically correct. South Carolina was part of the Confederacy at one point. As Texas and Louisiana were under the Spanish flag at one point. You don’t see the mob calling for the removal of the Spanish flags at state buildings because the Spanish murdered the Incas, for example.

          Getting your panties in a wad over symbolism is infantile. It is even more infantile to expunge the public record of historical symbols such as flags because the collective is offended at the moment. This is mob mentality, nothing more. The Confederate flag did not kill anyone nor did it cause anyone to be killed. And it is important to remember your history so you don’t repeat the bad parts of it.

          1. “I’m not sure why you stalk me the way you do, but this is a matter of history.”

            Responding to two of your comments in the same thread = stalking?

            “We cannot expunge all the world of “offensive” symbols when they are indeed historically correct. South Carolina was part of the Confederacy at one point.”

            So what? That doesn’t mean they have to fly the flag (and the battle flag at that). Do they fly the Union Jack as well? To pretend like this is just about acknowleding history is asinine.

            “As Texas and Louisiana were under the Spanish flag at one point. You don’t see the mob calling for the removal of the Spanish flags at state buildings because the Spanish murdered the Incas, for example.”

            There aren’t too many Incas in the US, so that’s one reason. Texas also flies the first national flag of the Confederacy, so I don’t know why you’re singling out the Spanish flag. The battle flag gets greater opposition because of its historical use and primacy by hate groups and Lost Cause sympathizers. The Confederacy and its flags don’t get singled out because it was the only country to do bad things. It gets singled out because it was a country formed overwhemingly for the explicit purpose of defending and perpetuating the institution of slavery and it fought to that end for the entire duration of its existence. The history of Spain isn’t limited to or based on wiping out the Incas in the same manner.

          2. It is not necessary to fly a flag in order to avoid forgetting history. Germany doesn’t fly the Nazi flag, I’m pretty sure they haven’t forgotten what happened. No other state besides Mississippi flies the Confederate flag either. Calling a rather tame call by some people to remove a flag a “mob” is very hyperbolic. You’re getting your panties in a wad far more over the removal of the flag than most people are from it being there.

  44. And how is that different from the stars and bars if you really think about it?. Had the U.S remained under the crown there is good reason to believe slavery would have been disposed of much sooner. The 1772 Summerset case of England which ruled slavery could not be justified under common law motivated at least some in the U.S to side with the revolutionary faction.

    It’s just the common perception and usage not really anything inherent of inescapable in the flag itself. And they aren’t voting to destroy the flag, just to change its use to modify the perception of it.

    1. The US Revolution wasn’t overwhemingly dedicated to defense and perpetuation of slavery the way the CSA was. Pro-Revolution sentiment was highest in areas with little to no slavery and where it was banned soon after (like New England). Britain didn’t ban slavery in the empire for 50 years after the Revolutionary War ended and nearly 60 after it began (and who knows if it would have lasted longer had the American colonies remained a part of the Empire). The stars and bars is not the name of the US flag, you’re thinking of the stars and stripes.

      1. Getting down to brass tacks, the fact is that the flag means different things to different people. Yes, it is offensive, and rightfully so, to many, but I’m not sure that a majority of those that see the flag as representing the region necessarily intend it to offend. That may seem a subtle point, but that’s not the case, say, with the Nazi flag.

        In any case, all of this is typically irrelevant to any real issue, which is where American discourse is–avoid hard conversations, wring our hands over symbols and other nonsubstantive issues. Just the way politicians like it.

      2. The CSA states paid 90% of all federal revenue and were economically and financially exploited by northern fnanciers and industrialists in other ways which made their economic development difficult, that was certainly a major contributory factor to their secession

  45. Look at these racist jerks:

    http://ecx.images-amazon.com/i…..3,200_.jpg

    http://www.revisionisthistory……nferderate flag balck

    1. So many racists…

      http://iranpoliticsclub.net/hi…..ages/Black Confederate Activist H K Edgerton.jpg

      http://www.shortnorth.com/DooD…..ges/25.jpg

      1. Why do they hate black people?

        http://www.jessejoyce.com/v2/w…..1/luda.jpg

        http://scv357.org/blkconf/imag…..erates.jpg

        1. http://creativefan.com/importa…..f-hate.jpg

          I could go on and on….

          Faux outrage is the new thing for the cool kids.

      2. his granddaddy rode with quantrell, and the other with bufford forrest

  46. Only idiots like Rand Paul think the Stars and Bars was created as a symbol of anything other than opposition to tyranny by Lincoln’s dictatorship Union. The flag had an honored history, and protected its citizen’s rights and freedoms, unlike Lincoln’s Union flag.

    1. Fuck Off nazi.

    2. The flag had an honored history, and protected its citizen’s rights and freedoms

      Now if only they could have done something about the rights and freedoms of the people they claimed it was legally OK to own…

    3. That’s not quite true. The Confederacy wasn’t opposed to the Union; they sent diplomats to negotiate a payment of the national debt, tried to parlay, and in general sought not to get their asses kicked in a bloody invasion. It was their bad luck that Lincoln ignored those overtures and had a greater taste for bloodshed and fashionably modern centralized rule than Garrison did.

      Never quite figured out why the same people who would reject the wars in Vietnam and Iraq as immoral would be so gung-ho about the Civil War, which made both of those look reasonable by comparison.

      1. That didn’t stop them from seceding merely because of the election of someone who opposed the spread of slavery and because they didn’t think the Northern states and the feds sufficiently enforced the Fugitive Slave Act. Or from firing the first shots of the war. No, it was all that damn Abradolf Lincler.

        1. the election of someone financed by by northern industrialists who engineered US tariffs so the south paid 90% of all federal revenue and received no protection or benefits for its own products could hardly be expected to please the exploited southern states.

      2. And the “peculiar institutions” referred to in the articles of secession apparently referred to holding cotillion and sipping mint juleps.

    4. “…anything other than…”? Really? No other reason?

      And I’d like to get a source on the latter. From what I understand, the south was not particularly big on personal freedoms – even for whites.

  47. Shut the fuck up, Robby. You’re out of your element.

    Now that we know that ebay will quickly cave to a few obnoxious Alynskys who get the ear of the media with no Chick-Fil-A-style pushback, it’s worth noting that ebay sells all kinds of offensive nonsense: tons of El Che memorabilia, books on Marxism, game-“used” Cubs uniforms…

    At least DiLorenzo will enjoy a few more chances to trash the Lincoln Memorial as a statue of a murdering lobbyist in an armchair. Never gets old.

  48. For libertarians, people should matter more than government-facilitated national pride. It’s inspiring (and frankly, a relief) to see that libertarian-leaning Republicans like Paul are honoring that principle rather than following an outdated and offensive political strategy.

    Isn’t calling for taking down the flag exactly the opposite of the individualism you espouse? I thought pandering to the mob’s demands de jour was in fact collectivism.

    1. How is the state government of South Carolina flying the flag an example of individualism? And even in the case of private individuals, it isn’t contrary to individualism to criticize another person’s decision.

      1. to stretch things a bit some could view the confederacy as an attempt by members of a collective (of states) to leave that collective, namely the federal government, either individually or as members of a subgroup. In that sense they represent a struggle of the individual against the collective much like Camerons half-hearted struggle to eave the european union. An instance of resistance to the Borg.

  49. If you’ll pardon a “racist” analogy, the left and the media (*there’s* an overlapping Venn diagram!) are trying to get the Republicans stuck in this tar baby.

    It’s no time for nuance, it’s time to tell the leftists that, yes, we hate the Confederate flag, can we *please* move on to something else?

    Because the left doesn’t really want to move on to anything else. What else are they going to talk about – how the economy is going swimmingly under Obama? How his visionary leadership brought freedom to the Muslim world?

    No, they’re going to want to pester the Republicans about how they’re racist racist racist. Just denounce the flag and move on.

    1. Just denounce the flag and move on.

      I have no particular affinity for the confederate battle flag

      Yet I also maintain no politically-required loathing of southern cultural symbolism

      Reread what you just said about “denouncing” and then tell me about how much more libertarian you are than someone like me

  50. Wal-mart, Sears and Ebay pull the Confederate flag after sales soar. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/…..7290.html# At this rate, I guess a black market will emerge for selling Confederate flags like smuggling cigarettes or alcohol….

    There a good topic to read about it on City-data forums and if they removed it from their stores, some folks said they should remove t-shirts, caps wearing Che Guevera photo. http://www.city-data.com/forum…..erate.html

    1. One guy nicknamed Packardfan on City-data http://www.city-data.com/forum…..ate-6.html posted the following then I quote:
      “Then eBay needs to put a stop to selling “Black Power” or “la raza” stuff. Period.”

      If Ebay don’t, is it a case of double-standards?

    2. Hmm… A black market for confederate flags? (narrows gaze)

  51. I don’t see ebay selling la raza stuff. Just leave those poor people alone. Look at what the media wants you to look at.

  52. By the way = I applaud the way Robby handled this particular kulturwar issue

    Unlike the way bones have been thrown to the SocJus vultures about things like ‘rape culture’, this was more an honest confessional that political necessity demands certain postures…

    However there’s still the same leaning on “here’s an interesting argument someone else made” rather than making the ‘principled libertarian argument’ and owning it.

    I don’t really think doing “Me too” journalism should be Reason’s way of increasing its appeal

  53. Wow, Internet libertarians are struggling with this issue more than the actual people who need racist votes.

    While the flag, as a symbol of our country’s greatest (ongoing) collective crime, should obviously be relegated to the mobile homes of idiots, this debate angers me because it is literally purely symbolic. The NRA probably loves that the response to a mass shooting is all about a flag.

    1. “”this debate angers me””

      how?

      Because its not creating an opportunity to grab people’s guns?

      1. Of course not, it’s far too soon for that debate, a bunch of people were just shot!

        1. I’m shocked that you’re too cowardly to simply state what your desires are outright, and instead stand on corpses and pose dramatically

        2. I realize that there’s no point in mentioning to you how unseemly it is to make political hay out of the tragedy of others, especially in a case where the laws being proposed would have had absolutely no impact had they already been in place which makes it obvious that the “debate” is nothing but crass exploitation.

          But at least you should realize, if you followed the case itself, that at a bare minimum it made sense to wait until the facts of the case were clear. Witness, for instance, the fact that how the shooter got the gun was incorrectly reported at first.

          1. Speaking of statist assholes whatever happened to Dunphey?

        3. Fuck off Tony. You Nazi.

    2. 80 years of slavery under the Stars and Stripes. 80 years of Jim Crow. 100 years of Native American genocide. Countless foreign wars of aggression.

      4 years of the Stars and Bars. Don’t you think you’re a little off?

    3. As a libertarian I struggle with this as well. It seems many of the mountain dew drinking libertards are unable to admit that the reasons they support libertarianism is because they are racist who were in favor of slavery and states rights during the civil war. While I favor business friendly laws and making government more efficient…and I want support from wherever I can get it. At some point I believe the most sophisticated amongst us who must refuse to accept the racist support of the redneck clans on principle. If we don’t stand up to the racist in our own political group then who will ever take us seriously?

      1. I do believe people SHOULD stand up to the actual racist elements among libertarians – if/where they exist – and actually eject & disown those people. (see: Ron Paul and his legacy sleazoids)

        That said, i don’t think banning flags or denouncing ‘symbols’ makes anyone less racist.

        Its just a cultural pi?ata to whack

      2. are those racist clans you loathe genetically related, could your hatred by then a form of — gasp — racism ?

    4. “a symbol of our country’s greatest (ongoing) collective crime, should obviously be relegated to the mobile homes of idiots”

      Wait, you’re talking about the Democratic Party, right? I mean if your argument is essentially “something something history of racism” I would think the folks who actually fought for slavery and Jim Crow and later against segregation would be public enemy #1. I would hate to think you weren’t being consistent about something, Tony.

  54. Banning a flag (or any symbol) seems to me to be nothing more than Political Correctness. And Political Correctness is the Libtard equivalence of prayer – it makes them feel like they are doing something, when really they are doing nothing at all to address a problem. Its also low-hanging fruit. The easiest stance to take to feel good about yourself.

  55. So why is Rand running away from the real cornerstone issue of libertarianism….gay marriage?

    1. He has no need to comment, except to mollify extremists that he probably doesn’t even need, except to get by the caucasuses. It is a question of civil rights, on which our great country is to be commended. He would make a very good president, I think.

  56. All joking aside. I appluad Rand for this brave move. Some of my best friends have black friends. It is about time that libertarians admit they were racist a couple years ago during the letter writing days.

    1. Denunciation is actually very good for your skin as well

    2. could any of those black friends of friends of friends of associates be descendants of blacks who fought for the confederacy ?

  57. I have a little game to celebrate our democracy; every time I hear a political candidate say something I really connect to as to where I want that candidate to go, I send him/her $25. So far Rand Paul is way ahead, but Bernie Sanders has stake in the game.

  58. Rand just saved me from making any campaign donations this cycle.

  59. To compete for the votes of young people and minorities,

    Old white people just don’t vote in Republican Presidential Primaries.

  60. You know who else has a flag?

  61. I don’t mean to be cynical, but slavery is a very inefficient from of economics. Economically it makes no sense to own someone, including their labor, because they will hate you and barely work. But, because they are assets you must feed them and house them. It is cheaper to get good work from them during their good working years. Otherwise, you have to pay for them to be raised, and pay for them when they are sick, and so on.

    Hiring employees makes way more sense. You can fire them when you don’t need them.

    And, because I’m a bit cynical on this issue 1. The South would have given up slavery before too long. War, or not. 2. If slavery made sense economically, we’d still own slaves. Because most people do what is good for them period, even if it is bad for others.

    1. Exactly. I used almost the exact same language in a post last night. The only thing I would add is that slavery was the most efficient system before the industrial revolution. With a John Deere, hiring peeps makes sense. But if you need hordes of laborers, then your best bet is to treat them like chattel. Which is how people were treated.

  62. I usually get irritated by SJW crusades, but they’re right about this one. Libertarians should no more support the Confederate flag than the Soviet flag or the Nazi flag. Slavery is slavery whether you call it communism or fascism or… slavery.

    (Of course, private individuals are free to fly whatever flag they want. That doesn’t mean you have to cheer for them.)

    1. It’s a military banner, not a national flag. It doesn’t stand for “slavery” the flag stands for fighting an invading foreign state. A “slave state” at that.

      1. It stands for defending a state that includes this in its Constitution:

        Article IV Section 3(3)
        The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several states; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form states to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory, the institution of negro slavery as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress, and by the territorial government: and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories, shall have the right to take to such territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the states or territories of the Confederate states.

        1. As well as this:

          Article I Section 9(4)
          No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

        2. As well as this:

          Article I Section 9(4)
          No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

        3. It USED TO stand for that. However 150 years later and 8 generations later it has morphed into something else entirely. Symbols mean whatever the hell we want them to mean, that’s why they’re symbols.

  63. Google pay 97$ per hour my last pay check was $8500 working 1o hours a week online. My younger brother friend has been averaging 12k for months now and he works about 22 hours a week. I cant believe how easy it was once I tried it out.
    This is wha- I do…… ?????? http://www.Wage-Report.com

  64. I saw this article from American Thinker about the Confederate flag who thought otherwise.
    http://www.americanthinker.com…..lying.html
    and on a off-topic sidenote, I spotted this blog post http://mikesmithspoliticalcomm…..-flag.html

  65. To those who want to ban the Confederate Flag – Congratulations! What’s next? Destroy monuments to Confederate dead? Burn history books? Oh yeah, then there’s that “offensive” Gadsden banner.

    Isn’t it amazing how quickly things are moving on an issue that 99.9% of the country couldn’t care about less than a week ago?

    These invented controversies we are witnessing are the Politically Correct spasms of a psychotic nation rotting out from under our feet like river ice in the spring.

  66. Boss Hogg finally caught those racist and murderous Duke boys!

  67. What amazes me the most about this is we’re doing the Same ‘ol $h!t we do and have always done: blame [insert inanimate object here] instead of an evil individual who committed a (rare, in retrospect) crime. It seems we always have to blame something, albeit guns, knives, sharpsticks, flags, transfats, parenting, etc. Instead of making an attempt to progress towards a resolution to a problem, we try to ban (or limit) something. Fine, lets play that game:

    You see that flag? The red, white and blue with 50 stars 13 stripes? That is a symbol of evil. It symbolizes a society that kills innocent individuals indiscriminately in third world countries with its weapons. A society that steals property and money from individuals who work hard and take risk. A society that tells me what I can and can’t do with my own flesh and blood, something I was born with and is rightfully mine. It makes decisions for me against my will. If we want to destroy tyranny and procure freedom and true liberty: we must remove and burn that flag.

    Sounds good, huh?

  68. Well duh! The communist manifesto calling for a progressive income tax was published in English in London’s Red Republican in, what? 1850? It did make it into Uncle Tom’s Cabin and drove the slaveholding mercantilists into the arms of the tariff resisters so that both factions lost in 1860. Does anyone think the GOP–after going to the bother of Red Scare prosecutions in 1920, joining hands with the Prohibition Party and Anti-Saloon League and pumping up the age of McCarthyism to disguise its roots–is going to pass up the chance to tar-and-feather a genuine tax resistance movement? Why would GOP looters even want their hands in the till unless it be filled with other people’s money? Isn’t that the meaning of altruism?

  69. True the Confederates desperately forged an uneasy alliance between anticommunist tax and tariff resisters and mercantilist agricultural slaveholders. The lesson for libertarians is that history will judge by the company we keep if we allows the DemoGOP to taint us! And gummint schools dinning for 155 years that the Civil War was never about taxes and that secession was nothing like the Ordinance of Nullification, has paid off with manufactured facts. But in 1867 a bunch of unreconstructed rebs fled to slaveholding Brazil and sought refuge in Americana. In 2013 Americana was the most livable city in Brazil. This could hardly be the heritage of slavery, which was everywhere in Brazil at the time. Plug “Fraternidade Descend?ncia Americana” into Google and you will see images of confederate descendants holding dances and BBQ fairs in that most livable of low-tax Brazilian cities.

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