Law, Not Policy, Should Guide Supreme Court in Obamacare Subsidies Case

For months now, the Obama administration has been playing a coy game with the latest Supreme Court challenge to Obamacare, refusing to say what kind of plans they are making in the event that the High Court rules against them.
The issue, which the court will hear on Wednesday of this week, is whether the administration's decision, through an Internal Revenue Service rule, to provide subsidies for insurance purchased through the law's federally run exchanges is allowed under the text of the law, which says that subsidies are availably only in exchanges established by a state. If the court decides against the administration, subsidies for several million individuals would quickly be cut off absent any legislative follow-up.
Last week, the administration seemed to go a step further, suggesting that they have no plans at all. "We know of no administrative actions that could, and therefore we have no plans that would, undo the massive damage to our healthcare system that would be caused by an adverse decision," said Health and Human Service Secretary Sylvia Matthews Burwell in a letter to Congress.
The language here is slippery. It's not that the administration has no backup plans whatsoever. It's that the administration claims to have no plans that would fully reverse the result of a court decision for the challengers. Surely the administration has prepared in great detail for an adverse ruling—one Republican legislator suggested at a hearing last week that the White House has put together a 100-page dossier of potential responses—although what, exactly, the White House would do remains unclear.
But the primary point of the letter wasn't to clarify what the administration would or wouldn't do in the event of an adverse ruling. Instead, it was to highlight, again, the disruption that one would cause—and perhaps, in the process, make the court ever so slightly more reluctant to rule against the administration.
The administration, in other words, wants the Court to believe that ruling for the challengers would be maximally painful and disruptive.
Republicans in Congress, in turn, are playing their own version of the same game. GOP leaders have indicated that various groups on the Hill are working on contingency plans and Obamacare alternatives. One plan, an update to an existing proposal by a trio of Republican senators, has already been released. Various other ideas about what to do in the event of a ruling for the challengers have been floated by legislators and influential policy experts on the right. And today, in The Washington Post, three GOP senators—Orrin Hatch, Lamar Alexander, and John Barasso—write that "Republicans have a plan to create a bridge away from Obamacare."
Their plan would "provide financial assistance to help Americans keep the coverage they picked for a transitional period," in order to minimize the disruption, and it would allow for some federalist flexibility, giving "states the freedom and flexibility to create better, more competitive health insurance markets offering more options and different choices."
As outlined in the Post, the plan leaves lots of questions: What sort of financial assistance would be provided, and for how long? What sorts of flexibility would states have, and under what legal authority? And are there enough votes in the House and the Senate to actually pass something—anything—that resembles what the trio of senators describe?
To the last question, the senators write that "we have had many discussions with our Senate and House Republican colleagues on this issue, and there is a great deal of consensus on how to proceed."
It's possible that the House and Senate could unite on a plan relatively quickly. In an interview with Bloomberg News last Friday, Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wisc.) talked about the need for Republicans to create a "bridge out of Obamacare" if the court sided with the challengers. The use of the same descriptive language suggests that, if nothing else, parts of the House and the Senate are on the same page when it comes to messaging.
But as last Friday's chaotic House vote on Department of Homeland Security funding suggests, it's hard to know whether Republicans could really get anything like what the three senators describe to pass. As Ezra Klein, who also raised some of the same questions about the GOP trio's plan, argues, it's just as likely that Republicans would not be able to agree on any fallback at all. Certainly, the history suggests that it would be very hard for Republicans to unite around any health care plan; years of promises to repeal and replace Obamacare have produced a number of proposals, but little consensus. Mostly they have demonstrated how difficult consensus is to achieve.
But consensus isn't really the goal here. Instead, the Republicans are playing a strategy that is the reverse of the one employed by the White House: They want to convince the court that the fallout from a ruling for the challengers would not be too great, because the GOP has a mitigation strategy at the ready.
What this messaging tug-of-war leaves us with, then, is an odd dynamic in which the administration insists it has no contingency plan, even though it (likely) does, and Republicans in Congress insist they have a backup, even though they don't.
It is understandable that both sides would take this approach; after all, as Georgetown law professor Randy Barnett has argued, the Supreme Court is more likely to rule against the administration if Republicans have some alternative in place. By the same token, the High Court is more likely to rule for the administration if there is no contingency waiting in the wings. (And to the extent that it matters, I think Republicans have at least a somewhat better argument; they don't yet have a plan, but they are at least working on plans, while the administration is absurdly attempting to imply that it has no playbook should it lose.)
But even though this approach is understandable, and perhaps even inevitable, it is not ideal.
The question before the court isn't whether a ruling against the administration would be disruptive. It's whether the administration's actions are authorized by the statute. To the extent that a ruling against the administration would be disruptive, it would only be because the Supreme Court decided that the administration exceeded its authority in the first place. The law either authorizes the subsidies or it doesn't—and if it doesn't the subsidies should not have been granted in the first place. Neither the scale of the disruption nor the readiness of some alternative render the administration's actions more or less legal.
Despite the efforts of both sides to influence the court, this isn't really controversial. What matters is what the law says. Indeed, sometimes disruption is required by the law, and when that happens it doesn't mean the law should be tossed aside. It's worth looking back a few weeks to the administration's announcement that it would be cutting off coverage through Obamacare for 200,000 people who failed to verify their legal status in the United States. This was, it seems reasonable to assume, tremendously disruptive for a fairly large number of people. It was also required by law.
Obviously the administration's position is that, in this case, federal exchange subsidies are allowed under the law. But this is the core of the dispute: What is authorized by the law, and what isn't? Policymakers in Congress can and should consider the policy consequences of a ruling against the administration, but the Supreme Court should be concerned with the law and its limits, regardless of the consequences.
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What is there to talk about here?
Here's what's going to happen. We can speculate all we like, won't change anything.
4 - 4 split along ideological lines, and Mr. Penaltax twists logic into something rivaling quantum weirdness and the subsidies are upheld.
Yep. The Court has become a rubber stamp for Congress, even when Congressional intent was demonstrably the opposite of what they later claimed (which is overwhelmingly true here, thank you Mr. Gruber).
Possibly this:
The subsidies are still available as a tax credit. You just can't get them paid in advnace directly to the insurance company. You have to file for the tax credit when you file your return.
Rationale: It would violate some sort of provision of the law to make tax credits available only to resident of certain states.
This is like if you work for a State institution in N.H. but live in ME. The State of N.H. will not take out ME. income tax out of your paycheck, leaving you to pay it all at tax time. Big pain in the ass.
I thought LePage was going to do away with the income tax.
The Nazgul's March/Theme
Since we are talking about the Supreme Court. I think this is the music that should be played whenever they dodder into view.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/mon....._guts.html
On Wednesday, the Supreme Court will finally hear oral arguments in King v. Burwell, the conservative lawsuit designed to cripple Obamacare by cutting off subsidies to millions of Americans who have come to rely on them for purchasing health insurance.
Thank god that web journalists in America can maintain unbiased positions as they report on the top news of the day.
Does the lawsuit attempt to kill puppies as well?
I'm not sure. I didn't make it past the opening sentence.
I am sure the guy at slate thinks it does. What a fucking hack.
See what I'm talking about, John?
It's a "conservative" lawsuit. It's been "designed" to "cut off subsidies to millions of Americans".
That's why winning would work in the D's favor.
Which is why they WILL win, because the D's WANT this battle, and I am sure they have instructed the liberal justices accordingly.
Which is why the administration is keeping it's cards so close and not making any plans (that we can see). Because they want to lose the case, so they can use it as leverage to force the Republicans to enact a favorable (to them) set of "fixes".
It won't happen. This is not the same as shutting down the government. Any bill that Obama would sign would never get out of the House. Worse still, once you start talking "fixes" you have to admit the act is broken and Obama will never do that.
They are terrified of this happening. It would give the Republicans all of the leverage. Obamacare would fall apart without this fix and Obama wouldn't be able to get a fix without going through the Republican Congress.
Remember, people like Toobin and Greenhouse are nothing but Democratic operatives. If the Democrats wanted to lose this case, they would be writing about how it has a chance. Instead they are writing about how partisan an illegitimate a decision against them would be in hopes of bullying Roberts to back down. If Roberts doesn't, they are screwed and they know it.
Ask Bo.
No.
Bo knows law.
More unbiased journalism, from Reuters:
Every single thing I quoted is wrong.
There simply is not a viable case that this was a "drafting mistake" such that the Court must read it as something other than it says. The court is not going to overrule Chevron which says "the plain meaning controls". The plain meaning here is clear. Moreover, the legislative history clearly shows that Congress meant what it said and one of the key advisers who helped draft it "the infamous Jonathan Gruber" admitted the same. Liberals try and pretend there is no way it could mean what it says when in fact it makes perfect sense that Congress would gives states the incentive to set up their own exchanges by subsidizing citizens from states who did so.
It means what they want, when they want it you rethuglican fool!
This thing needs to die.
I think there might be an equal protection argument against the provision. Can the government consistent with equal protection withhold subsidies from people because their state government refuses to set up an exchange? I keep trying to think of an analogous example but I can't. But it would be a pure rational relationship test. And it is pretty hard for a statute not to pass such a test.
That being said, if you are looking for a way Roberts could come up with another "penaltax" like decision where he gives liberals what they want but uses some odd ball reason, equal protection might be a way he could do it. You get four justices affirming Chevron and reading it as it is written, four justices affirming Chevron but pretending the language doesn't mean what it says and somehow it is okay to save Congress and then Roberts voting with the latter four but filing some bizaro concurring opinion saying that the statute means what it says but can't be enforced that way because of equal protection.
But if the issue is that it somehow violates equal protection, then the court must strike it down. The court has no authority to retroactively re-write an unconstitutional law, only to send it back to the legislature for re-writing.
No. They strike down that part and say everyone gets the subsidy. it would be like if the feds said everyone but Mexicans gets a special bonus on their taxes. The court could fix it by killing the bonus but they could also fix it by telling the government to give it to Mexicans as well.
But the court has no authority to enact any spending, or to order the legislature to enact spending - they are coequal branches of government. They can only, legally, strike down something as unconstitutional, they can't legally enact their own legislative 'fix'. The can only send it back to the legislature to craft a bill that passes constitutional muster.
They do in the name of equal protection. For example, they did just that in school desegregation cases. They ordered states to spend money to improve the schools in minority districts and to bus students to other districts.
Which I would argue is also improper. But I get your point, it is something they have taken upon themselves the authority to do, whether legitimate or not.
I agree that it is. I am just saying what they did.
The court has no authority to retroactively re-write an unconstitutional law,
Courts do it all the time.
Ex. A: The Sebelius case.
Ex. B: Many of the gay marriage cases. In those cases, the courts are rewriting statutes to allow gay marriage, rather than striking down statutes that don't allow gay marriage.
Michigan v. Bay Mills Indian Community involved a statute called the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act of 1988. Here's the Kagan quote in context (citations omitted):
Good quote, thanks. There is no way to uphold this without looking like a fool. People like Toobin and Greenhouse get paid to look like idiots in support of the cause. The Justices don't and are a bit more sensitive to looking stupid.
From yesterday's WSJ Best of the Web.
Law, Not Policy, Should Guide Supreme Court in Obamacare Subsidies Case
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahaaaaaaaaa.... chuckle.....
*cries*
"Law, Not Policy, Should Guide Supreme Court in Obamacare Subsidies Case"
What precedent is there for this? Hahaha!!
I love you you guys keep using that same picture. It's the perfect dog whistle.
I think the statute is going down. And it wouldn't shock me if it was by a 6-3 or better majority. Roberts craves perceived legitimacy more than anything. He knows the liberals are going to go insane if they don't get what they want and conservatives are going to kill him if he pretends the statute doesn't mean what it says. Most importantly, you can't ignore the language of the statute without ignoring or overturning Chevron, which none of the justices wants to do.
The justices are not as wickedly partisan as people think. Even the initial Obamacare decision wasn't so much partisan on the Liberals' part as an expression of the fact that they honestly believe that the Commerce Clause is a trap door inserted to get around all limits placed on the federal government. In this case, even the liberals are going to have a hard time pretending the statute doesn't have a plain meaning. I bet one or two of them can't do it. And all Roberts needs is a single liberal to vote his way and he can claim it wasn't a partisan decision.
Suppose it does go down?
I wouldn't put it past Obumbles to try and ignore the court.
See my comment below. If he ignores it and pays out the subsidies anyway, the only remedy would be impeachment, which is no remedy. I give at least even money that is what he will do. And watch the media and Democrats in Congress tell the country that giving the President the power to ignore the Supreme Court and spend money without authorization from Congress and in violation of the law is totally okay when their side does it. The terrorist Republicans gave Obama no choice.
If he ignores it and pays out the subsidies anyway, the only remedy would be impeachment, which is no remedy.
Special prosecutor appointed by Congress to go after Anti-Deficiency Act violations.
Don't even have to lay a glove on Obama, necessarily. Start investigating and charging senior agency officials at DHS and IRS.
I don't you could appoint a special prosecutor without support of at least some Democrats in the Senate, which will never happen.
I don't think he can write that many checks, and while *he* might get away with it, some clerk in Snakesnavle, ID doesn't wanna lose her cushy job writing illegal checks.
^This.
I love the Commerce Clause as Trap Door analogy. That is great. To get to 6-3 which liberal Justice is most likely to defect?
Good question. Oddly, maybe Kegan. She is a total government hack but that also means she is a real stickler for Chevron. Chevron basically says you don't give the private party mercy by reading the statute any way but what it says.
Keep in mind, it doesn't necessarily even get to Chevron if the court finds there is no ambiguity, also a possibility.
Here is the arugment being made by the supporters of the law.
http://www.slate.com/articles/.....ick.2.html
I asked her for the principles of statutory construction that the justices will deploy. She said that rule number one is that context matters, and text cannot be interpreted in a vacuum. She added that you can't read a section that makes the rest of the statute senseless. She also said that it makes no sense to assume Congress sowed the seeds of the statute's destruction right into it. Mostly, she said that the courts have interpretive rules preventing states from being penalized by statutes that bait and switch by offering them things which are then taken away without warning.
She added that you can't read a section that makes the rest of the statute senseless
But it doesn't make it senseless. It makes perfect sense for Congress to set up a system that tells states "if you don't help us implement this, we are not giving your citizens subsidies". They always say "well it makes no sense" and then never explain why. That is because they can't. It makes perfect sense. If the state doesn't want to set up an exchange or be a part of this, why should it's citizens benefit from the subsidies? The people in states that do set up exchanges are paying state taxes to do so. So why should the people in other states get a free ride?
The "makes no sense" argument doesn't hold up very well when "the architecture of Obamacare" is on tape explaining exactly why the text of the law makes sense.
They always say "well it makes no sense" and then never explain why.
They don't have to. It's FYTW. Saying "context matters" might as well say "fuck the written word, we're going on a vague recollection, zeitgeist, and word-of-mouth".
It's the thought terminating portion of the concept; I have a vague sense of the intent and, absent the context I dreamed up, *I* can't make sense of the written word.
"I know what it means, any other interpretation is nonsense."
That's a wonderful post facto pretext, right there. Look at all the built-in assumptions.
In my memory the Nazgul have stepped up their game in the excretion of pure travesty. In my eyes they no longer have any credibility whatsoever. Hell, Justice Penaltax stated on the record that he has no intention of doing his fucking job.
What do we keep the bastards around for?
they honestly believe that the Commerce Clause is a trap door inserted to get around all limits placed on the federal government.
I don't think they "honestly" believe that the writers of the constitution intended the commerce clause to effectively negate almost the entire rest of the constitution. They know damn well it's bullshit.
No. I think they think that.
I just don't see how any educated person can actually believe something so illogical and patently ridiculous.
Don't be silly; educated people believe illogical and ridiculous things all the time.
There's no reason to think John is wrong. I totally agree.
What is that famous Orwell quote Niki? Something about some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual would believe them?
If they do strike it down, I give even money that Obama ignores the court and spends the money anyway. Why not? What is the Congress going to do about it? Impeach him? And the courts won't stop him because no one will have standing to sue. You can't have standing without an injury and no one gets injured by getting free money.
Taxpayers get injured pay having to pay for it.
Not enough to give them standing. If it did, you could sue the government over every anti-deficiency act violation. You can't do that.
The Constitution says no money can be drawn from the Treasury without Congress. The President controls the treasury. Now, there is a law called the anti-deficiency act that says the executive can't spend money unless it is appropriated. If the executive ignores that? The remedy is criminal prosecution by the Justice Department.
Stop laughing now at the thought of that actually happening.
The remedy is criminal prosecution by the Justice Department.
Or a special prosecutor.
That would require a sudden growth of spinal columns and testicles in Congress, I know.
But its a theoretical possibility, no?
"Or a special prosecutor."
See the Democrats embrace the concept of the Unitary Executive faster than the eye can follow.
That is my thought as well.
It is hard for me to understand how the left keeps supporting Obumbles. Everything he touches turns to shit right before our eyes.
progressives don't mind ruling over shit if the alternative is not ruling at all.
No he will use it as a bludgeon against the Republicans. Those evil Koch-funded fat cats want to take money out of the pockets of hard working Americans!
It won't do him any good. It is his bill. People will blame him for the drafting being fucked up. And it is the Red States that didn't set up the exchanges. The voters in those states hate him anyway. The ones who might believe that argument will get their subsidies and likely not even realize this ever happened.
No, they won', because if it wasn't for those evil Koch-backed court cases, and those evil conservative Supreme Court justices, everything would be fine.
I agree. The budget process is so thoroughly in the shitter as to be completely useless, so they can't go that route. And they sure as hell don't have the stones (let alone the votes) to impeach him no matter what he does.
The budgeting process isn't screwed up. What is screwed up is that every time Congress uses its power, Obama and the Democrats just shut down the government and the media blames the Republicans.
Congress has the power of the purse. If it doesn't fund something and the President vetoes the entire funding bill or funding for all of the government in protest, it is the President not the Congress who is shutting down the government.
Yeah, that's what I meant by "in the shitter": it's been tossed there on purpose.
Don't worry, all it will take is a President Walker for the media to suddenly realize Congress not the President has all of the power.
When President Walker is signing legislation passed by a Republican House and Senate, the mainstream media will be calling for armed revolution.
Won't matter much.
Their audience is the side with no guns.
Once again, unto the breach: non-unanimous rulings on what a law means ought to strike down the law in its entirety and tell Congress to do a better job next time. If the highly educated judges can't agree on what a law means, how in the hell can anyone else, especially the people who are supposed to bow and scrape before the rule of law?
"provide financial assistance to help Americans keep the coverage they picked for a transitional period,"
Opening shots. The D's will push hard to make that "transitional period" last forever. Just like the "Doc Fix", and an ever growing numer of "tax extenders".
As I've said before, an adverse ruling is not going to mean subsidizes won't be provided in federal exchanges, because the political pressure to make them available will be enormous, especially on Republicans, given that it is mostly Republican states that don't have their own exchanges.
The R's don't really have that strong of a hand here. They can push to make all sorts of changes to the law, in exchange for making the susidies available. But the D's don't have as much to lose. They can afford to sit on their hands and demand a "clean" bill that simply authorizes the subsidies, and nothing else.
The countervailing political pressure should come from business.
If the plaintiffs win, businesses in those states are freed from at least some of the penalties (and hence employer mandates) of the law. I suspect they will fight to keep that.
Good point.
Of course, the R's could just tack that onto the "transitional" subsidies. Say that "these subsidies will not be considered in section" blah blah, which imposes penalties on employers.
What is the Congress going to do about it?
It's pretty remarkable that the Republicans seem so feckless in light of the fact that, contrary to popular belief, their brand is better than ever. Looking at Congress, governorships, and state legislators they haven't been this powerful since the 20s, yet you'd think from their behavior that their fearful of ever winning an election again.
They're fearful of never winning the one thing that, in all honesty, isn't that great a prize anyways.
Here's another possibility:
Maybe they will argue, to the courts, that making the "tax subsidies" available in some states and not others would be unconstitutional. Aren't the subsidies somehow distributed by the IRS, so you can technically still get a tax credit if you buy an off-exchange plan?
To get the tax bennies, you have to buy through the exchange. I'm pretty sure.
I haven't heard of any arguments that it would be illegal to allow the bennies in some states but not others.
I don't really see an argument there, to tell you the truth. Give it a go, if you want.
Well, perhaps there is some constitutional principle that taxes have to be applied to all US residents equally, regardless of which state they lived in.
You couldn't have a special tax that applied only to residents of New York, for example.
So likewise, you couldn't have a tax credit that applied only to residents of some states.
The fact that progressive commentators are now largely making smug dismissals of the lawsuit as being frivilous and beyond absurd really communicates the terror they are feeling about their prospects at court.
They don't want the intellectually goose-stepping morons that comprise their fanbase to consider or even expose themselves to the arguments against HHS.
I think this goes down on a 6-3 vote for the reasons John describes above. Plus in addition to the obvious legal issues, Obamacare is not popular or as highly anticipated the way it was 3 years ago. The pressure will be lessened for Roberts.
Everything they say is a lie. So when they said "this is ridiculous", the suit was of course absolutely valid and likely to succeed.
Yes. I am reading truly absurd things about the suit these days. The Reuters story I linked above calls it "a fairy tale." Saw something earlier about how it as "widely considered one of the most absurd lawsuits in recent years." Etc. No matter how you come down on the legal question, those things are simply wrong. They are freaking out.
If you create a mindset in which losing is not even considered as a valid possibility, you do two things:
1) You exert social pressure on people on your side to stay in line, or appear to be lunatics.
2) You simultaneously promote the perception that the only conceivable reason for losing is due to the venality of the opposition. If there is no possible rational argument for their position, they can only hold it because they are evil liars.
"Law, not policy"? That ship has long ago sailed, I fear.
Just for the record, here are the states with federal exchanges:
Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Florida
Georgia
Indiana
Kansas
Louisiana
Maine
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
New Jersey
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming
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"We know of no administrative actions that could, and therefore we have no plans that would, undo the massive damage to our healthcare system that would be caused by an adverse decision,"
Translation:
"We fucked-up and don't know how to fix our fuck-up, so we'll beg for sympathy"
The Dems put a poison pill into the law. Now they're changing the medicine after a lot of states decided to take the pill.
At least when they called the tax "not a tax, but a penalty" the wording in the law had the form of a tax, so the Supreme Court could uphold it. In the subsidy case the talk matched the wording, so there's a much tougher time getting out.
Of course, stating all that, the Supreme court will probably vote to keep it around using some new right found in the 14th amendment.
The ACA is a giant shit show the needlessly fucks with people lives. I would rather have Insurance companies compete across state lines, and the AMA not lobby for economic protection in the medical professions. /drops mic
*that
Please folks a federal exchange established in a state that refused to build a state-exchange is a state exchange established by the state that refused to create it own private exchange. These "federally" established exchanges are in fact established by each state.
No Supreme Court will allow the United States Congress or President to become prima facia guilty for promissory estoppel.
There is absolutely no chance whatsoever that SCOTUS will create the largest class-action liability ever. This argument is frivolous and should cause sanctions.
CN_Foundation|3.2.15 @ 5:32PM|#
"Please folks a federal exchange established in a state that refused to build a state-exchange is a state exchange established by the state that refused to create it own private exchange. These "federally" established exchanges are in fact established by each state."
Yes, CN, we fully realize that lefties are not competent to understand the difference between "up" and "down".
Please peddle your bullshit elsewhere.
Dear fellow libertarians ,
I don't see the problem at all. Why should we care if poor people who have cancer get dropped from their insurance plans? Limited government is all about e-cigs, gay guys at CPAC, and the rise of hipster entrepreneurs.
I IMed today with my friend in Copenhagen yesterday and told him what was going on. Personally, I don't feel like I have a stake in this battle because I don't really care all that much if Obamacare goes bellyup, but I could almost literally see my colleague shaking his head in disgust. He probably just doesn't know how good we have it here in the US.
Tale your murderous bullshit and economic illiteracy elsewhere
Gosh, if one of your friends in Denmark thinks a legislative change is a bad idea, I guess that means that we should forget all economic reasons for it and just go with what he says.
I mean, who are we to question the wisdom of someone from a country where the central tax, regional tax, and value added tax each average over 22%?
In a world of finite resources, the government will always have to make decisions about who gets treatment and who doesn't. Perhaps a society which devotes 2/3 of it's GDP to health care sounds wonderful to you, but it's not necessarily a universal truth that providing people with free healthcare should have priority over other goods.
Hi, Countries that have universal access to health care spend less as a percentage of their GDP for health care. Efficiency is only one of the reasons why these kinds of systems work better than ours -- where primary care for the working poor means you go to the ER.
american socialist|3.2.15 @ 9:49PM|#
"Hi, Countries that have universal access to health care spend less as a percentage of their GDP for health care."
Hi, dipshit! Yes, they do, which is the reason people from those countries come here for decent medical care.
Oh, and did you pay your mortgage yet, or are you still a slimy freeloader?
And fuck off.
This: "Countries that have universal access to health care spend less as a percentage of their GDP for health care."
Goes hand in hand with this: "In a world of finite resources, the government will always have to make decisions about who gets treatment and who doesn't."
american socialist|3.2.15 @ 8:12PM|#
"Dear fellow libertarians ,"
Dear lying piece of shit,
Don't ever presume you have an idea of what libertarianism means, asshole.
Could you post the receipts where you actually pay for someone else's medical care, food or shelter please ?
Get government out of the health care business as much as possible. Limit them to limited regulations and financial support to those who need it.
Obamacare, Medicaid, Medicare and VA hospitals should be abolished.
People under these programs and those who are financially below the poverty level should be given a yearly amount that they could use to purchase health insurance.
Keep the federal regulation stating that insurance companies have to cover pre-existing conditions as long as the person had previous insurance.
Allow people to purchase insurance from any state.
Deregulate state health insurance markets.
Unhinge medical insurance from employers in the tax code.
Getting government out and increasing competition in this way will lower health care costs. It cuts the bureaucracy costs, cuts the fraud costs and improves competition and quality of care.
Obama has a plan, another executive order. Congress is irrelevant.
Where in the constitution is the federal government given the right or responsibility to ensure that the citizens of the free states have or purchase medical insurance (or any other good or service) ? Absent such federal powers why must congress rush to ensure that subsidies , which should not be being paid for insurance which should not be being forced upon anyone , be maintained at all ? Why is it always the responsibility of congress to fix or at least interfere in any perceived ill or unfairness some progressive twit can imagine ?
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It would take 10 minutes for congress to authorize subsidies for last year and this year while they "bridge" to somewhere else.
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If the law as written requires unequal treatment then by your argument the law itself is unconstitutional... that doesn't give the administration a pass to implement it however it pleases.
"It's been 3 or four days since Republicans guaranteed that all current subsides wouid contnue during a "transition period." (Reported on the 27th)"
Uh, Mike, you mean these 3 guys?
"Sens. Lamar Alexander of Tennessee, John Barrasso of Wyoming and Orrin Hatch of Utah are saying they have a plan"
http://wate.com/2015/03/01/sen.....subsidies/
That's a long ways from "Republicans" as a party.
Right, there's never been a tax that applied only to residents of some states.
And, arguably, that ought to be considered unconstitutional. You can't just single out residents of certain states for extra taxation.
So, they could argue that the text as written is correct, but would be unconstitutional. So the court could just strike down the *restriction* on benefits to only some states.
On the other hand, all of the states are perfectly free to set up an exchange. So you can't really say those states are being singled out.
"Republicans were already forced to give Robeerts an escape route -- three or four days ago (reported 2/27)"
3 senators /= "republicans", Mike. Quit repeating that crap.
"Republicans announced yesterday that nobody on subsidies will continue receiving them (Burr, Hatch and another guy)"
Mike, the three guys ran it up the flagpole and YOU are the only one saluting.
Get over it; "The Republicans" did nothing of the sort.
Can you name another law that was written to apply differently?
Yes, but as I mentioned below, the states can always be treated equally by opting to set up their own exchange.
The law doesn't say that specific states don't get the subsidies, it says that only states that opt-in by creating an exchange get the subsidies. That's different.
Sure, this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.....ct_of_1992
Which, in addition to applying differently to states that already allowed some form of sports betting at the time, theoretically applied differently to states that had licensed casinos over the ten year period prior to the law.
"Republicans have already guaranteed that subsidies will continue during a "transition period" if the federal subsidies are struck down."
Do you have some investment in this crap.
"Republicans" did nothing of the sort; you're bullshitting as you commonly do.
Three senators you fucking retard.
I don't know what is in the challenges, but it is possible someone has included it. Also, didn't the court basically follow a unique argument in it's decision on the first ACA case? Because they ruled it wasn't a tax for the purpose of allowing the challenge in the first place (the standing of the plaintiffs), and then ruled that it was a tax. That's why nobody expected the decision that it was a tax.
Michael Hihn is right.
The Republicans will get MURDERED in the polls if subsidies are not restored or even, god forbid, clawed back from unsuspecting recipents.
There is ZERO chance that some sort of stop-gap subsidies won't get passed.
The real question is how much can the Republicans add to the bill to weaken/reform the ACA, especially with the D's wielding the threat of subsidies being yanked as a bludgeon: "Look at those evil conservatives trying to take away the benefits you were promised!"
And when the challengers win, public opinion will DEMAND that subsidies be restored. Think ahead, Sevo. Even if the R's aren't full behind it now, they will be. Or they will experience yet another rout like the one going on right now over the DHS bill.
John, this is a good thing. For one thing, it gives Roberts a perfectly good excuse to rule against the subsidies.
That means the plaintiffs WIN.
Secondly, it will launch a battle to pass amendments to the ACA.
The R's play their cards right, they will be able to gut the ACA in spirit, if not in name.
Refusing to restore subsidies, at least temporarily, to people that are currently receiving them is not a good strategy. (A) because most of those people reside in Republican states, and (B) because you will instantly create a constituency of VERY angry VERY motivated voters.
No, but the fact that the states have the OPTION of creating an exchange means that the tax subsidies aren't really unequal, they are merely conditional.
Right, it's meant to give the conservative justices backing to vote in favor of the challengers.
Hazel,
Give the conspiracy theories a rest.
Sorry, Mike. Hazel is as stupid as you here.
(laughing)
Oh, and why don't you get lost?
Michael Hihn|3.2.15 @ 9:31PM|#
"Three senators you fucking retard."
(laughing hysterically) Who do we believe Forbes?"
I believe the laughing hysterically, and hysterically pretty much defines you.
(laughing at you)
Michael Hihn|3.2.15 @ 9:39PM|#
"Are your parents proud of the trashmouth bully you've become?"
Shitstain, would you like me to link some of your comments, or would you just admit you're a hypocrite?
(laughing at the tired, old Mike)
"Every time you attack me, you make a total ass of yourself. Perhaps you should bully somebody dumber than you. Oh wait ..."
Every time you post here, you make a total ass of yourself.
Mike, you're a tired piece of crap left over from when Forbes might have had some cred.
Fuck off.
(laughing at you)
Yeah, Mike, you seem to have all the answers.
Please tell us how to save the world!
(laughing at Mike)
Obamacare, Medicaid, Medicare and VA hospitals should be abolished.
Ummm, how? (Medicare and Medicaid)
Ahem. You left out the second proposal of the comment:
People under these programs and those who are financially below the poverty level should be given a yearly amount that they could use to purchase health insurance.
And *that* answers your question.
Yeah, Mike and if they do that, why the other folks will do this maybe and then the......
(laughing at Mike; fuck off)
the court wouldn't be creating the situation; the statute did that already.
The fact of the administration implementing it until now in some other fashion is irrelevant to the underlying constitutionality of the law's plain language. If the court ruling that the current implementation is illegal according to the statute means that implementing it correctly is unconstitutional, the court didn't create that situation; Congress (and the President when he signed the bill) did.
and nobody on the right has an alternative that progressives like.
a rather ridiculous legal theory Mikey, perhaps that is why the administration isn't using it.
Appeal to Authority
The Governor of the State of Maine (Paul LePage) has made statements that he wants to do away with income taxes. This is a germane response to JPyrate's post.
Unrelated, I looked you up on the MENSA directory and didn't find you.
Or Mike posting something without an all bold rage! Yessah!
Mike - he was referring to MSM calling for an armed revolution in kinnath's post.
"Bullying. Intimidation. Making an ass of himself. Six times on this page alone!!" - Mike describing Mike
At least you are self-aware!
POUNDS CHESTGet Off MY Lawn John McCain Michael Hihn
I completely support replacing the income tax with the 9 - 9 - .9 plan. Because I support taxes. /sarc
I think 91% of libertarians went on Wikipedia and found that some crazy, raging, old man was somehow linked with the LP and decided that they wanted to be as far as possible from that.
I don't see how applying the prohibition against sports betting in Nevada would have failed under the ex post facto provision of the Constitution - the law didn't punish people for placing or taking bets prior to 1993. Various other provisions, sure, but not that one.
Under your interpretation, the '90s ban on "assault weapons" should have been overturned as an ex post facto law for not grandfathering in the states where no ban on manufacturing & owning assault weapons previously existed.
In any case, the law was specifically crafted in such a way that New Jersey - and no other state - could have legalized sports betting during the year after its passage. That was clearly not a provision to satisfy any ex post facto concerns, given that sports betting wasn't legal in New Jersey at the time. (New Jersey didn't take advantage of that provision, but that doesn't change the fact that the law treated New Jersey differently than the other states that weren't grandfathered in.)
Michael Hihn|3.3.15 @ 7:50PM|#
This is the best example of a fool you'll see all year!
Won't matter much. Their audience is the side with no guns.
Show of hands, how many people agree that the Republican audience is the side with no guns?
Mike, some engineer was referring to MSM calling for an armed uprising against the Republicans. Not that the Republicans don't have guns.
You totally humiliated yourself. (snicker)
I use Ayn Rand's texts as religious instructions as much as I use the Bible. Ergo I don't really care what her position on taxes may or may not be.
Don't get too excited though about us sunsetting part of the coercive system since we would still have sales and property taxes.
In addition to disliking him over eliminating taxes, I think you'd also be upset to learn that he was a Ron Paul state delegate that walked out of the national convention after Romney's lawyers used the RNC to force Maine to split its delegates (even though we are a winner takes all state). He also told Obama to kiss his ass and I know your disdain for epithets - so likely a strike three.
You told me a couple weeks ago that you were in Mensa. I looked you up and couldn't find you under your last name. I also looked up all the "last name begins with H" people in Idaho and I didn't find you.
Maybe that is why you are enraged (i.e., you got it wrong).
It was clear to me. Nobody else all bold raged over it.
The tabs and context made it clear to me. And potentially to every other Reason member since no one else posted. And if you were as unsure then as you are now, why all bold rage on it? Why not ask a clarifying question instead of launching into a verbal assault. This reminds me of when you incorrectly pegged me as a Christian and attacked me over same sex marriage.
Mike. You are the Village Idiot. Regarding personal attacks, spoken like a true bully. You initiated the vitriol when you attacked me in the same sex marriage article. You violated the NAP when you did that. And then you lied to try and cover-up ypur fuck up. So don't be so suprised that I am calling you out for your bullshit and stupidity.
Irrelevant Authority. You're not the "keeper of the brand."
The irony here is that our first interaction was you attacking me as being Christian. So (1) you were engaging in what you profess to disdain and (2) you were wrong in your assumption that I am Christian. You got it wrong and instead of accepting that ypu have created this strange dialogue with yourself where you apply things to me that are not true.
I'm glad I am in such good company. Just to revisit, you are not for eliminating the mandatory tax system, correct? I mean, if ot went away how would people know how much smarter you are than them if your 9-9-.9 plan isn't implemented. Screw coercion, this is serious business.
So you are not in Mensa. I was surprsied when you said you were but not so surprised now. This is one tribe in which you can rest assured that I am a member.
Are those taxes voluntary or would I be required/forced into paying them? Because if it is the latter then it violates the NAP and the is the basis for whether I support something or not. And in the case of mandatory taxes, I do not support them.
When you came in third place in a race of three candidates, how did that manage to be described as getting elected?
I don't support mandatory taxes and I think that is one of your primary areas of disagreement. Potentially why you appear to have a sore spot when folks call out socialism. Of course, you are also still mad at me because you onitiated verbal abuse with me based on an assumption I was something that I am not.
So you support coercive (mandatory) taxes?
That is incongruent with the NAP. But then folks don't get to see how smart Mike is with his 9 - 9 - .9 plan!
Mike, you were the only one that fucked that up.
Do I need to reference something a few posts above? Is your eyesight as poor as your logic?
Kinnath at 4:22 PM on 3-2-15 indicated that MSM would advocate for an armed revolution. A day later Some Engineer responded with their audience not having guns. And then you went all bold rage incorrectly thinking he was referring to Republicans. Oops.
Mike, this epic fail of a post exemplifies why you are the Village Idiot here at Reason.
I am a proven liar because I won't agree with you regarding something that isn't true? You mad bro?
As a non-Christian Mensan that subscribes to the NAP, I'm not interested in being forced to pay for things I do not use.
In regard to your question, I'd rather let them figure out how to proceed. I'm not interested in trying to be a Top Man statist and better utilize (or perhaps just utilize differently) the coerced funds. If they end up with less that they will need to cut spending.
The reduction/elimination of taxes can occur simultaneously with the cutting of spending. Not dissimilar to how a business or household needs to adjust its budget when income drops.
But if we did that you wouldn't be able to show the coubtry how smart you are. Top Men like you are needed, right?
The links show you are an idiot, have a mental disorder, stroked out, or can't accept you royally fucked up when you attacked me for being something I am not and this is your childish way of protecting your ego and paradigm.
I looked you up on the Idaho sex offenders list beause I thought yhere was a chance you'd be on it. And you were not on the list. So I won't (and have never before) refer to you as a convicted sex offender. Even if you post those string of words together three times.
So how are taxes involuntary yet not forced/coerced?
I pay some of them because an armed intervention by the state is something I will most assuredly lose. And I regularly find ways to minimize having to do so. If you are saying that by paying them I agree with them I disagree. A child sex slave may accept their situation but it doesn't mean they agree with their situation.
Mike - your cite linked to one of your posts. That falls under strawman and possibly red herring.
Your first amendment argument regarding religion is also a red herring. Other than you incorrectly labeling me as a Christian there hasn't been a religious component to these discussions. You must be livid with yourself that you fucked that up royally.
I gave you an example in my state of how the income tax was being proposed to being eliminated and ypu went geriatric apoplectic on it. Can't have the state reduced in size; they might not need Top Men to show the idiotic masses how to wisely be governed.
Third place Mike - government takes a haircut. A pretty substantial one. And the belief is that the country will be better off with as little government involvement as possible.
How can you have been suckered into wrongly thinking I am a Christian? Then how could you have sickered yourself into continuing that falsehood after being notified of your stupidity? And how could you have fucked up so royally with reading comprehension to thonk that Some Engineer was referring to any post other than klinnath? So stupid. Repeatedly. For all to see.
Or they can continue to borrow and spend until the currency becomes too devalued to serve any purpose. Unlike you, I'm not interested in maintaining a failed system. Especially not through coercion. Did Matlock load his depends or not realize that?
I'm not a statist so I'm not too concerned if the value of the decreases because tax revenue has been reduced or eliminated (and more dollar bills are printed to make up the difference).
Do you think the thirteen colonies should have revolted or do you think they should have worked with King George to educate the people, allow time for new institutions to develop, and then *poof* voluntaryism to occur?
No. The dumbasses that claim libertarian can be far worse.
I thought Ucrawford and I were the (only) two bullies. Now John and Sevo too? Any others need to be added to your list?
I cited the post where you fucked up on SomeEngineer's reply to kannath and went geriatric all bold rage about something that wasn't true. It is in this article. How much of a loser are you to not recognize that? I know you know to what I am referring.
What Christian denomination am I?
Aggressive troll.
"dumbfuck" -Mike
Outstanding. Something something 91% CATO Institute something somthing never get people to support the cause. Epithet.
I thought I was the bully. Me and Ucrawford.
Now it is John and Sevo? I feel like you don't love me anymore.
Mike is the Village Idiot so you kind of have to accept the stupidity as expected.
Village Idiots sometimes don't get answers. Such as why are such a dumbass.
The Village Idiot fpund an acorn. Ain't that cute.