Ebola

After Escaping Chris Christie's Clutches, Ebola-Negative Nurse Faces Detention by Her State's Governor

|

Office of the Governor / Jim Bowdoin

Kaci Hickox, the nurse who escaped New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie's clutches on Monday, now faces a threat of confinement by Maine Gov. Paul LePage. On Friday, as I note in my column today, Hickox became the first person to be forcibly isolated under Christie's new 21-day quarantine policy for health care workers returning from Africa after treating Ebola patients. Hickox has never shown symptoms of Ebola and repeatedly tested negative for the disease while confined at University Hospital in Newark over the weekend, which is why Christie, by his own account, let her leave New Jersey for her home in Maine. LePage nevertheless wants Hickox to remain at home until the 21-day quarantine period ends in mid-November. Today she said she prefers not to, since she is neither sick nor contagious. In response, LePage said he will try to compel her compliance.

"Upon learning the healthcare worker intends to defy the protocols," says a statement from LePage's office, "the Office of the Governor has been working collaboratively with the State health officials within the Department of Health and Human Services to seek legal authority to enforce the quarantine." Meanwhile, "The Maine State Police will monitor the residence in Fort Kent where the healthcare worker is staying, for both her protection and the health of the community." That sounds like LePage is exercising a legal authority he does not yet have by enforcing a quarantine that has not yet been ordered. He explains why:

We hoped that the healthcare worker would voluntarily comply with these protocols, but this individual has stated publicly she will not abide by the protocols. We are very concerned about her safety and health and that of the community. We are exploring all of our options for protecting the health and well-being of the healthcare worker, anyone who comes in contact with her, the Fort Kent community and all of Maine. While we certainly respect the rights of one individual, we must be vigilant in protecting 1.3 million Mainers, as well as anyone who visits our great state.

LePage, a Republican up for re-election next Tuesday, is right that "1.3 million Mainers" (many of them voters!) deserve protection from imminent threats to their health. But there is no evidence that Hickox poses such a threat, and no reason to think that daily monitoring for symptoms cannot provide adequate protection in the event that Hickox does become ill, without the need to detain her at gunpoint. Ebola is not airborne; it is transmitted through contact with the bodily fluids of people who are infected, a risk that does not arise until fever and other symptoms appear. As The New England Journal of Medicine notes in an editorial published on Monday, "an asymptomatic health care worker returning from treating patients with Ebola, even if he or she were infected, would not be contagious," and "fever precedes the contagious stage." Contrary to what LePage seems to imagine, someone with a normal temperature who tests negative for the virus will not suddenly become violently ill during a trip to the grocery store and start vomiting on fellow shoppers, setting off an epidemic.

Maine Health and Human Services Commissioner Mary Mayhew says a quarantine policy based on such outlandish, scientifically unfounded scenarios is "a reasonable, common-sense approach." The New England Journal of Medicine calls it "unfair and unwise," warning that it will "impede essential efforts to stop these awful outbreaks of Ebola disease" by deterring medical professionals like Hickox from volunteering their efforts. "These responsible, skilled health care workers who are risking their lives to help others are also helping by stemming the epidemic at its source," the journal says. "If we add barriers making it harder for volunteers to return to their community, we are hurting ourselves."

Christie, desperate to justify what looks like an embarrassing overreaction, keeps falsely claiming that Hickox was "obviously ill" when she arrived at Newark Liberty International Airport on Friday. According to her account, which as far as I know is uncontradicted, the only evidence of illness at the airport was an erroneous reading from a forehead thermometer indicating a temperature of 101, which she attributes to the fact that she was "flushed and upset." At the hospital, a more-accurate oral thermometer indicated a normal temperature of 98.6, while a forehead thermometer still registered 101. Hickox says a doctor told her: "There's no way you have a fever. Your face is just flushed." Hickox did not display any other symptoms, and she tested negative for Ebola, which is why she was released from the hospital on Monday.

Here is how Christie spun this sequence of events yesterday:

She hadn't had any symptoms for 24 hours. And she tested negative for Ebola. So there was no reason to keep her. The reason she was put into the hospital in the first place was because she was running a high fever and was symptomatic.

If people are symptomatic they go into the hospital. If they live in New Jersey, they get quarantined at home. If they don't, and they're not symptomatic, then we set up quarantine for them out of state. But if they are symptomatic, they're going to the hospital.

A temperature of 101 does not qualify as "a high fever" in an adult, and even that reading seems to have been erroneous. As Christie should know by now, Hickox never had "a high fever" or any other symptoms. By continuing to claim otherwise, he implies that she was sick but got better, which suggests that she might get sick again at any moment.

"I remain appalled by these home quarantine policies that have been forced upon me, even though I am in perfectly good health and feeling strong and have been this entire time completely symptom free," Hickox said on NBC's Today show this morning. As I argue in my column, which discusses the legal standards usually applied in quarantine cases, the government does not have "clear and convincing evidence" that Hickox poses a threat to the general public, and home confinement is not the "least restrictive alternative," given the option of daily symptom monitoring.

NEXT: Sororities Don't Let Their Girls Drink in the House: Is That Wise?

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. A chance for national media attention!?

    Does anyone foresee Fat Fuck ever passing that up?

    1. Huh. I was thinking the same about this nurse. She sure seems to love the love.

      1. I vote we give them both Ebola for realz, cause I mean, fuck them both.

        1. heh – not even I would propose that!

      2. She’s an egotistical showboat who works for the CDC.

        1. Ding, ding. She’s all over the national news.

          Attention. Whore.

        2. She went to a third-world country to treat desperately poor people dying from a horrible infectious disease.

          When she got home she raised a fuss in the media because she was illegally detained without basic services or access to an attorney, and all without being charged with a crime, much less convicted.

          Much ego! Many showboat!

          1. And now that she is at home, after successfully escaping the crap “isolation” in NJ? Why is she all over the national media now that she is neither (a) treating poor people or (b) illegally detained?

            1. This post illustrates pretty well that she’s still a story. What is she supposed to do, tell the news shows and the President to fuck off?

              1. Maybe Ms Hickox could use a little help from the local cavalry of independent gun owners? This seems as good a cause as any to stand up to the fascists.

            2. I’m just going off her appearance on the morning shows.

              Came off as somebody who is smug and loving all the attention.

              1. Most people would love the attention of appearing on GMA and having her boobs grabbed by POTUS. “Important” people paying attention to her could make anybody come off a little smug. Just look at Paul Krugman.

                Frankly I judge you much more harshly for watching those shows than I judge her for appearing on them.

          2. Hugh, you don’t think showboats with ego issues ever volunteer to help poor people overseas?

            1. Pretty sure I wouldn’t put it in absolutist terms like that. I’m sure some of them do it to show off how caring they are or whatever. But an ebola hot zone in a third-world shithole seems like an odd choice for glory seekers.

              I haven’t seen anything to indicate that this particular nurse wanted any media attention for what she was doing until they Guantanamo’d her in Jersey.

          3. You are obviously missing her “tent” confinement – exposed to the elements, lions, tigers, bears…

          4. By that logic she cannot be detained from going out in public even if she has Ebola, because having a disease is not a crime.

            1. Is knowingly transmitting one a crime? She is supposedly a medical professional – would every victim have a civil claim against her and every death result in a murder charge?

  2. But continuing to claim otherwise, he insinuates that she was sick but got better, which suggests that she might get sick again at any moment.

    Holy fucking shit. I didn’t think the obvious could be stated so blatantly AND used as a weapon to detain civilians.

  3. We, the millenials, do not approve! At least that is what my unscientific polling suggests.

    It’s clear that this fear mongering over Ebola is ridiculous though. Will we ever properly assess threats to our health and national security in this country? ISIS and Ebola are prime examples of minor threats being overblown. They are terrible in their own right, but the danger they pose domestically is quite small.

    1. If even ONE person dies from Ebola in the US (which is the current death toll), clearly we must ban all travel from Africa. Come to think of it, planes sometimes crash — why haven’t they been banned yet? If it would save even one life, it must be worth it.

  4. Obviously the solution is to quarantine *everyone*.

    1. I’m ok with that. It’ll instantly tell me which people are retards.

      1. What about quarantining Congress and Obama Administration officials? After all, we don’t want the best and brightest our country has to offer getting sick.

        1. Only if the “quarantine” zone happens to double as an oven.

          1. A bit extreme for my tastes. We may have to poll more millenials before we find out anything definitive.

            1. I imagine anon is suggesting that out of an abundance of caution.

              1. Out of an abundance of caution, I would shut down all public schools indefinitely.

            2. Shooting range? Get rid of pests and get target practice. A twofer!!

  5. `NUKE HER FROM SPACE

    ITS THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE

    1. Too close to Canadia. It might start a whole new war with them. And we all know how the last one turned out…

      1. The last thing we need is Canada on strike again, buddy.

      2. You mean post-10/22 Canada? Yikes.

    2. I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

      I hate people who get the words wrong.- Crash Davis

      1. “That’s kickass!” – Crash Gladys

        1. “Uka Uka is free! No… it cannot be! Evil… great evil has come…” – Crash Bandicoot

      2. ANY RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MY COMMENT THE MOVIE ALIENS IS ENTIRELY COINCIDENTAL

        1. Hey! You’re from South Park, aren’t you?!

          / All celebrity voices are impersonated… poorly.

      3. Was she wooly or weary?

  6. I don’t find this all that controversial. You are treating people with a highly contagious disease in the midst of an epidemic. You get 21 days of quarantine to make sure you don’t infect anyone else. Especially since the exact level of “contagiousness” seems to be in question.

    1. She hasn’t demonstrated any symptoms of the disease, and every has come up negative.

        1. But do we know that the test are accurate long term? Could she test positive later and develop symptoms in say 10 or 12 days like the NYC doctor?

          The tests seem of limited use if the results aren’t reliable for the duration of 21 days.

          1. How about this: If you don’t want Ebola, you should quarantine yourself. The rest of us will continue to take the .0000001% risk that we might someday somehow contract the disease.

            My chances of winning the lottery are better than that of getting Ebola.

            1. Again, like the NYC doctor? Who failed to quarantine himself and lied to the CDC about his activities?

              A true quarantine is an overreach, but something more than “self monitoring” is needed. These professionals haven’t always acted in the most professional manner when their own convenience is at stake.

            2. Hey, anon?

              Go fuck yourself, asshole.

              1. Fuck you, dumb bitch. If you don’t want Ebola, don’t leave your house. If you want everything perfectly safe, you can do that; don’t try to get the rest of the world to.

                1. You have serious reading comprehension problems as well as mental health issues.

                  You’re an asshole not because we may disagree on a particular topic but because you attached opinions to me based on your need to hate on someone. What a hero you are.

                  You are a loser who argues in bad faith.

                  1. You told me to go fuck myself for exactly zero reason. So fuck you, you fucking fuck.

              2. You tell them lady. These idiots are on full retard over this. I mean what is the worry. It is not like even a few cases of this shit will overwhelm the healthcare system or anything.

          2. Dunno how reliable the tests are, but I do know that ebola only spreads through direct contact with the bodily fluids of people who are symptomatic.

            Even if she’s lousy with the little buggers, she is no threat to anyone else until she starts showing symptoms. And since she has a more vested interest in her symptoms than anyone else, you can bet that she will be fairly paranoid about it.

            1. Hugh

              You don’t know that. You just think you do.

              1. John you just blew my fucking miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind.

            2. I do know that ebola only spreads through direct contact with the bodily fluids of people who are symptomatic.

              It also can be caught from people after they recover, so you don’t know as much as you think.

              The degree of “direct contact” with bodily fluids appears to be much less than that statement might suggest, as well.

            3. Dunno how reliable the tests are

              And yet you still attempt to use them as evidence that someone does not have Ebola?

            4. Even if she’s lousy with the little buggers, she is no threat to anyone else until she starts showing symptoms.

              At which point she and her fluids will be magically teleported into a quarantine area?

              Waiting for someone to be contagious before you quarantine them utterly defeats the point of the quarantine.

              And since she has a more vested interest in her symptoms than anyone else, you can bet that she will be fairly paranoid about it.

              Like the guy who went bowling in NYC with symptoms? Like the guy who flew here from Liberia with symptoms? Sorry, I don’t trust people in these matters.

      1. Hugh has ebola. That’s the only explanation.

        1. Look I’m bleeding out of my ass for entirely other reasons okay?

          1. Chipotle?

            1. Constantly buying new underwear is becoming prohibitively expensive.

              1. Have you tried Chipoltaway? There’s no better product for removing such stains

              2. Actually, Hugh, out of so many people on this thread, you’re one of the few not shitting his pants about this.

                1. Which makes it all the more frustrating that my pants are full of bloody feces anyway!

          2. Go on…

      2. The negative test, to me, is the best indicator. Not showing symptoms (by itself) is not.

        1. The blood test doesn’t pick up Ebola until they’re already contagious, because the virus stays in the liver and spleen during the inactive phase.

      3. She hasn’t demonstrated any symptoms of the disease

        The point of quarantine is not to isolate people who show symptoms, it’s to isolate them before they show symptoms.

        1. Ebola only spreads through contact with bodily fluids of people who are showing symptoms.

          1. And yet hundreds of doctors and nurses have died of it. Every single one of them messed up and touched some bodily fluids?

          2. So do a million other diseases that spread easily around in our population. Flu, cold, etc.

            1. None of which have a 70% death rate.

      4. 21 day incubation period. Let’s say she starts showing some symptoms at day 17, only she was never quarantined. Is she going to assume she has Ebola? Maybe not. 12.5% of Ebola patients never develop a fever. So she gets a case of the shits and attributes it to enchiladas, cause, you see, she has no fever, and maybe only one or two symptoms, which can be the result of damn near anything.

        21 days just to make sure she’s not going to kill a couple dozen people by accident.

        1. She is specifically trained to identify and treat ebola and is presumably motivated not to die from it. One imagines that if she finds herself exhibiting anything that could be a symptom she will contact the CDC tout de suite.

          1. Like the doc in NYC?

            Besides, by the time she is sure she has it, she is symptomatic ie. contagious.

            1. By the time she’s sure she has it, she should be in an isolation unit in a medical facility set up to test for and treat ebola, and thus at a fairly low risk to anyone outside of the bubble.

              But we’re not talking about sure, we’re talking about demonstrating possible symptoms, at which point she will contact the CDC so she doesn’t die.

              1. Looks like we won’t agree on this one, but I think you are seriously underestimating the ability for us humans to lie to ourselves, and having initials like RN or PHD or MD after our names does not protect us from our own nature.

                1. Absolutely, JHC. It’s well known that doctors often have “God syndrome” and do foolish things. A not insignificant number get addicted to drugs.

              2. What if she weren’t a doctor or nurse, and were just a janitor or some unskilled position in the health care world. Would you quarantine her then because she can’t be trusted to recognize symptoms?

                Cuz if you’re going to say one rule applies to doctors and another rule applies to everyone else, that ain’t gonna fly.

          2. No, no, Hugh, you don’t understand. In this one case she can be expected not to behave in her own best interests, and therefore that justifies restricting her to a location by force at threat of death should she try and get free, even though she is completely asymptomatic and there is no legal justification for detaining her other than people’s pants-shitting. Because when you’re shitting your pants, it’s ok to throw principles and rights out the window. You don’t even have to feel bad about it if you’re wrong! Isn’t that great?

            Understand now?

            1. The NY doctor, who we can assume would behave in his own best interest, had sex with his girlfriend when he returned from Africa. Was he behaving in her best interest?

              Of course people don’t want to die from Ebola, but people sometimes engage in a bit of denial. The don’t believe they’re vulnerable and might stretch what is truly responsible behavior.

              Self monitoring hasn’t really worked so far. That said, it doesn’t necessarily mean a quarantine is the logical next step. How about a daily phone call with twice daily temp readings to a state or CDC representative?

              The all or nothing view some people have is fucking mind blowing. No. This nurse isn’t an immediate threat to anyone and a quarantine is an overreaction, but “self monitoring” – with the limited experience we have with it – as proven expensive.

              1. This thread is not about “self-monitoring” or about whether a less-than-quarantine regime is called for. It is about the governor of Maine wanted to full-on-quarantine someone who was released with no symptoms.

                It also seems to be about collective guilting. One asshole doctor behaves arrogantly and stupidly, so all medical personnel have their rights restricted?

                Don’t take this the wrong way, but your fears are overblown and irrational and you are landing on policy prescriptions that are illiberal and statist and not very helpful or effective on top of it. People really need to get a handle on what risks are faced and what aren’t. We’ve been watching people shit their pants over Ebola for weeks and we are essentially in the same place we were then. Maybe some perspective is in order?

                1. This thread is about ebola and a rational response to it.

                  My fears? You mean those fears I don’t have and haven’t expressed?

                  Since projection is a favorite topic of yours, I’m going to point out the projection you and some others in this thread are engaging in. You seem to think the only response to the problem is either a satire of a libertarian response, “Fuck the state and STATISM!!!!” or individuals are scared shitless of the EBOLA!!!!!

                  Possible there’s a limited government response. You’re attaching opinions to me and possible to others we haven’t expressed.

                  1. The NY doctor, who we can assume would behave in his own best interest, had sex with his girlfriend when he returned from Africa. Was he behaving in her best interest?

                    My fears? You mean those fears I don’t have and haven’t expressed?

                    It would appear that your fears are people not considering the interest of others before their own interests. Which would make you 1: a cunt, 2: a liar, and 3: a statist.

                  2. Actually, this thread was initially about Ebola and the Maine governor’s irrational response to it (though some may have different opinions on that), and about how irrational responses might be 1) a violation of rights and 2) completely overblown.

                    Your fears are expressed in every post. You are, without question, clearly afraid enough of an Ebola outbreak that you are willing to consider and propose forced quarantines or other types of monitoring for someone who is asymptomatic. You’re afraid enough to consider rescinding someone’s rights because you think the danger is great enough. That means you’re afraid.

                    Now, as for projection, I can’t really see what I’m projecting and I don’t really see where you pointed it out, but let’s address the rest: what you are seeing as “satire” or making fun of pants-shitting is an attempt to point out to people that they are very willing to throw their supposed principles out the window–which they would never do for almost anything else–because Ebola scares the shit out of them that much.

                    Which is an insanely irrational fear, since you have vastly, vastly more to fear from getting in a car each day. This isn’t about limited government response. This is about irrational fear.

                    1. This isn’t about limited government response. This is about irrational fear.

                      Not to mention that even rational fears are not an excuse to steal liberties.

                    2. This isn’t just any asymptomatic person. This is nurse who has been in close contact with infected, symptomatic people within the last 21 days. It’s a very specific set of criteria.

                    3. Ok.

                      “You touched that guy that murdered all those other guys. To the best of our knowledge, murder is only contagious to other people while you’re actually murdering, but we’re not 100% on that, so sucks for you have fun the next 3 weeks masturbating in your cell.”

                      That’s exactly how I view this argument.

                    4. This isn’t just any asymptomatic person

                      So asymptomatic people are actually possibly symptomatic when you say they are, even with…no symptoms.

                      You do realize that if “asymptomatic” can mean symptomatic whenever you feel like it, it doesn’t mean anything, right? So now we can just jail people who are asymptomatic, because…you say so?

                    5. “So asymptomatic people are actually possibly symptomatic when you say they are, even with…no symptoms.”

                      Not at all. That’s what you want to hear. The purpose of a quarantine is to isolate a person BEFORE they are symptomatic. In a justifiable quarantine situation, some, maybe many, may never get sick. A quarantine is not a guilty verdict, it’s a precaution, that nobody knows if it’s truly necessary until it’s over.

                      http://www.forbes.com/sites/jo…..-is-wrong/

                    6. “With Ebola, we don’t know what the probability of exposure is each time a health worker puts on protective gear, contacts an Ebola patient, and then removes the gear. Hopefully it is much lower than 1%. Presumably those odds will vary across different health workers, and be correlated with the specific patient care tasks they perform. But in both the Texas case announced on October 12 and that of the Spanish nurse who contracted Ebola in Madrid, we have proof that those odds are not zero. The statistically inevitable conclusion is that when there are dozens or hundreds of health workers each having multiple contacts with Ebola patients, even with protective gear, and even when the health workers are careful and diligent, some limited number of transmissions to health workers are going to occur.”

                      So, we have a person with a MUCH HIGHER likelihood of carrying ebola. It won’t be knows for 21 days at least, if they really are infected. Quarantine is a precaution whose utility can only be determined AFTER it is used. If you disagree with this, fine.

                    7. This thread like every thread has traveled much distance from the original post.

                      Yeah, I’ve repeated endlessly that a quarantine was an over reaction but you don’t qualify your comment with my actual position but instead attach a general position to me so that you can argue your point. That is projection. You and others build the stawman of “the irrational pants shiters” willing to betray their libertarian principals while you, of course are one true Scotsman.

                      There’s a bit of grey in this situation.

                    8. Yeah, I’ve repeated endlessly that a quarantine was an over reaction but you don’t qualify your comment with my actual position but instead attach a general position to me so that you can argue your point.

                      Then please, by all means, clarify your position.

                      I’m betting it’s on your knees sucking that G-cock.

                    9. A forced quarantine is definitely an overreaction IMHO. Could the governor (or other) require the person in question to wear a health monitor (T, pulse) 24/7 that uploads to the web every minute or so. Then the person could lead a ‘normal’ life and yet be very closely monitored. If the T rises to 101 (or whatever is appropriate) then they could require her to go to the detention center/isolation center for closer inspection.

                    10. HOW DARE YOU impose your irrational fears on this professional??!!

                      Admit it, you’re no true libertarian.

                    11. Have you taken your temp lately, m’lady? I’d bet that after the exchange above you must be rather hot. Or at least feverish.

                      It seems to me that most rational people – even health professionals – would not be uncomfortable with an electronic monitor like those they place on their patients all the time.

                    12. Have you taken your temp lately, m’lady?

                      I think I’ll go kiss and ebola patient.

                      My comment was meant ironically. Your comment was way to sensible.

                      The libertarian breast beating gets a bit tiresome sometimes. IMO, a sensible but limited government response is the way to go. Your suggest – or something like it – seems too reasonable for H&R.

                    13. BigT: 12.5% of Ebola victims do not run a fever.

      5. Should not someone showing symptoms of the disease be in treatment, not merely quarantine?

    2. Sure — for one 21-hour period, that is reasonable.

      It is stupid to do so again *after* the person has already been quarantined without showing any signs of Ebola, which is what LePage is doing. That is pure contagion theater.

      1. It has a 21-day, not hour, incubation period. That’s where the 21 number comes from.

        1. 21 days only covers about 95% of cases. Even 42 days only covers about 98% of cases.

          Also note: about 12.5% of Ebola patients do not run a fever.

          1. That’s because they’re dead.

      2. *21-day

        Sorry, typing this from a sealed-off room while hemorrhaging internally is making it very difficult for me to TYPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

        1. Dude, now the keyboard is all sticky!

          AGAIN.

      3. contagion theater

        Nice band name, albeit a bit of a Dream Theater ripoff.

      4. Contagion theater.

        I like it!

  7. While we certainly respect the rights of one individual…

    If you find yourself beginning a sentence this way, it is pretty clear that you don’t respect the rights of the individual.

    1. Hugh, why can’t you accept politicians like LePage? They just want a world without any risk. Is that asking for too much?

      It’s also why we must eradicate ISIS at all costs or any other group that threatens the United States in any way.

      1. In a perfect world the government would issue us each a license to leave the house. We would have to swipe it every morning in order to unlock the door.

        Anyone deemed a high risk would simply have their licenses deactivated for however long public safety demanded.

        1. You think a perfect government would let people have houses? We would all be living in Soviet-style barracks, surrounded by fences and moats and fields strewn with radioactive waste. If you want to visit the countryside, you can apply for a permit and wait until you hear back.

        2. Anyone deemed a high risk would simply have their licenses deactivated for however long public safety demanded.

          Another argument for voter id?

  8. But there is no evidence that Hickox poses such a threat, and no reason to think that daily monitoring for symptoms cannot provide adequate protection in the event that Hickox does become ill, without the need to detain her at gunpoint.

    Is she agreeing to daily monitoring?

    1. She’s an RN with training in treating ebola. Pretty sure she’s more qualified to monitor herself than anybody the ME guvner would send.

      1. Would that be like the nurse who got on a plane with a fever so she could plan her wedding or the doctor who got on the subway with a fever to go bowling?

        1. PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE EBOLA-PROOF PLASTIC SHEETING!

        2. Trained professionals. Do NOT try this yourself.

        3. Would that be like the nurse who got on a plane with a fever so she could plan her wedding or the doctor who got on the subway with a fever to go bowling?

          And how many secondary infections have there been that can be traced back to Vinson or Spencer?

          1. Those are some fine, rose-colored hindsight spectacles you’ve got on there, pardner. Quarantines are prophylactic measures and by definition have to happen beforehand.

            Having said that, I don’t like the quarantine as a first option at all if these folks are asymptomatic. But “police yourself” hasn’t worked. I don’t know if that default methodology is being suggested by “experts” because they have a higher opinion of those in their peer group or what. But if medical professionals who have just been exposed to one of the deadliest diseases on the planet are disregarding fevers to go about their everyday lives then the least we can do is have a protocol that requires active, in-person medical evaluations daily.

            1. But “police yourself” hasn’t worked.

              As one person wrote, the honor system only works if people have honor.

              Feelin’ lucky?

            2. No doubt, we agree that medical professionals should act, you know, professional.

              But addressing the pants-shitting angle, my question stands; how many secondary infections have occurred that can be traced to Vinson or Spencer?

              1. Check back in a few weeks.

                1. Challenge for you, RC: if we check back in a few weeks and absolutely nothing has happened, will you freely admit that you were totally, pants-shittingly wrong? Will you admit to being paranoid? Or will you quietly drop the subject and talk about something else?

                  If the opposite happens, I will happily (well, not in terms of it actually getting worse) admit that I was very, very wrong. I’ll even list out the false assumptions I made. Will you?

                2. Check back in a few weeks.

                  Well, in Vinson’s case, let’s use the date of her hospitalization, which was exactly 2 weeks ago. Regardless if the incubation rate can be as long as 21, or as some argue, 48 days, we know the average incubation period is 8 to 10 days. Nishiura & Chowell-Puente (2014) have shown that in African shithole conditions, the secondary Rt is between 1.3 to 1.8. Now dialing that down due to a.) increased overall hygiene and b.) the lower viral load Vinson had as compared to your average infected African, we can imagine the number here is a lot closer to 1 or below.

                  If I were a betting man, I would spread my chips between zero and one.

                  As you’re in the health biz, I’m curious to know what you think.

                  1. Regardless if the incubation rate can be as long as 21, or as some argue, 48 days,

                    citation necessary

                    1. That says nothing about 48 days. That says the WHO declares an “outbreak” over after 42 days (specifically, twice the incubation period).

                    2. I think HM simply typoed 48 when he meant 42. But note that 21 is only the incubation period for 95% of cases, according to that WHO document. The rest are longer.

                    3. 5% is barely the threshold for scientific significance. In this particular instance, I’d bet it’s the margin of error.

                    4. That’s one in 20, which seems like a significant fraction to me, since we’re talking about a disease that kills 70% of victims. People are talking about 21 days as if that was some sort of iron-clad assurance, but it’s not.

      2. Pretty sure she’s more qualified to monitor herself than anybody the ME guvner would send.

        The ME guvner would probably send a nurse.

        1. A nurse hopefully trained in treating Ebola. Who just recently arrived from Africa. Treating Ebola.

    2. I’ve read she can do it by Skype. No, seriously. If she was required to do a daily in-person checkup with a medical professional I would call this quarantine an overreaction. But self-monitoring/reporting has failed in both TX and NY.

      1. Much of the overreaction is happening because what a douche the NYC doctor turned out to be. According to the NY Post, he lied to the CDC about his activities prior to exhibiting symptoms. So, the self-monitoring thing might not be the way to go even with professionals who should know better.

        1. According to the NY Post, he lied to the CDC about his activities prior to exhibiting symptoms.

          Really. A person lied. I know! Lets quarantine everyone, because people lie and we can’t trust that any of them haven’t been to Bumfuck Africa.

          1. I missed the part where anyone suggested a blanket quarantine on the general population was the way to go.

            1. I think that man over there made of straw suggested it. Yeah him.

              1. Care to google that up? Cause I can tell you 3 states right now with blanket quarantines in effect.

                1. “Let’s quarantine everyone, because people lie and we can’t trust that any of them haven’t been to Bumfuck Africa.”

                  The criteria in your own sentence would mean everyone – not just medical personnel, not just medical personnel that have been in Africa, EVERYONE – would have to be isolated for 21 days. No one is suggesting a medical martial law. Jesus, you sound like fucking Tony from an earlier thread on this issue.

        2. even with professionals who should know better

          The fucking “professionals” can’t even consistently wash their hands properly.

        3. And the second nurse in Dallas, who flew to Cleveland to plan her wedding, even with symptoms and while her fellow nurse was in a hospital with Ebola.

      2. This is all a plug for Sugarfree’s retirement plan, teledildonics.

        1. Remote medical probing is a dual-use technology…

  9. Note how the statist asshole acknowledges in one breath that he currently doesn’t have the legal right at this point to detain her, and then immediately talks about how the state police are going to be staking her out, which if he has no legal right to detain her, he certainly has no right to surround her house with police. But none of that matters to our overlords. They hate being told “no” and are ignoring being told no more and more frequently.

    Thus the march of rule of man continues on.

    1. That is a great point. Not only is this unnecessarily restriction, it’s also wildly outside the governor’s current mandate. What the hell is he thinking?

      Oh right. He’s thinking he’s US and we’re THEM.

  10. Does the disease generate spontaneously? Is it completely invisible during the incubation period? Is there a (blood?) test capable of detecting the presence of teh Ebolians other than the all too obvious symptoms?

    1. teh Ebolians

      Ok, so when Libertopia arrives, we’re definitely calling ourselves Ebolians.

  11. for most of us with an occupational license, deliberate noncompliance would permanently cost us our license regardless of whether we were right or wrong about the underlying issue. she seems oddly confident that they can’t touch her.

    1. Well, she’s been treating Ebola patients. No one wants to touch her.

    2. If you work for the CDC, and make a stink against policies the CDC opposes, you might be confident about keeping your license.

  12. It is completely outrageous for this woman to defy an extralegal order from the duly elected governor of a state! We all know it should be illegal; she is just trying to take advantage of a loophole.

    1. Disease Inversion!! UNPATRIOTIC!

    2. Can’t he just have his underlings block traffic to and from her house?

  13. I’m torn on this one. While I understand the the risk is very low that she will become ill. The same could have been said about the Dr. in NY. And, while I understand completely that the risk of transmission is very low since you have to come into contact with an infected persons bodily fluids. I can’t stop thinking about the NY Dr. going running while not feeling well. Sure, he didn’t have a fever or any other major symptoms. But, here is where I get a little nervous. The main reason a person isn’t infectious until they are symptomatic is because they aren’t expelling bodily fluids. But, isn’t sweat a bodily fluid? I know when I run 3 miles I’m sweating like a stuck pig. And, I personally don’t think the doctors have enough data on transmission to know if someone who is infected but asymptomatic could transmit it through their sweat. I know I’m probably being irrational on this one.

    1. Considering she’s already undergone a 21 day quarantine, I can’t possibly understand why you’d support an additional 21 day quarantine.

      At what point, if any, will you be satisfied she doesn’t have Ebola?

      1. Source? Because if true I wouldn’t. Everything I have head is she just got back from Africa last weekend.

        1. heard, not head.

      2. I didn’t see anywhere she had already undergone a 21 day quarantine. Where do you see this?

        1. She was quarantined in Jersey for 3 days. She about a week into a 21 day period.

          He’s wrong as usual.

          1. Show me one instance that I’ve been wrong and haven’t admitted it myself. Go ahead, I’ll wait, you dumb fucking cunt.

            1. I don’t know the nature of your past interactions with Lady Bertrum on Reason, but it may be best for you guys to avoid one another if you really make one another that upset

              1. She’s just a dumb cunt that hates me because I called her out on some bullshit months ago. I fully intend to wait for her to come up with something, but will probably find something more profitable to do.

                1. I just think there’s almost no point in responding to her if you feel compelled to use that kind of language. If anything, it may very well make things worse for both of you. That’s all I will say on this matter though.

                  1. I use the language to provoke a reaction on her part, not because of any emotions on mine. I only hope she dies in a fire somewhere.

                    1. I really hope you aren’t serious

                    2. About what, dying in a fire? I’m always serious about fire safety.

        2. I made the mistake of assuming Trouser’s comment was accurate. She’s only been quarantined for 6 days.

          That said, she has no symptoms, so whatever.

          1. That said, she has no symptoms, so whatever.

            Being without symptoms is not in and of itself an indicator that you’re Ebola free. I don’t know about the accuracy of the test she had which shows she’s negative.

      3. I think you’ve misread the article.

        The way I interpret is she was under a 21 day quarantine, and when she showed no symptoms, she was released early on good behavior.

        The ME governor wants her back in quarantine until the 21 days is complete.

      4. At what point, if any, will you be satisfied she doesn’t have Ebola?

        21 days after the autopsy??

    2. Sweat is a bodily fluid, yet. However, as far as I’ve read, there’s never been detectable levels of ebola found in sweat, even in people who were symptomatic. The possibility is recognized, but in reality you’re more likely to be struck by lightning on your way to cash in your winning Powerball ticket than you are to have ebola transmission in that manner.

      1. “So, your saying there’s a chance”

      2. I’ve read that people have gotten Ebola from touching a bed that an Ebola patient was in. I don’t think they mean the bed was covered in something obvious like blood or vomit.

        1. Coming in at only 5000 confirmed kills (for this outbreak, worldwide), the various police agencies in the United States have racked up at least 500 confirmed kills so far this year. I’ll let you decide which you want to take your chances with.

          1. If police killed 70% of the people they encountered, you might have a point.

        2. I was kidding with that quote. But, I’ve heard “we don’t know how it was transmitted” to x or y enough that I have to be at least a little concerned. Let’s face it. It’s a pretty rare virus. And there isn’t a lot of data on transmission vectors.

  14. I think we all know what needs to be done. There’s only one prescription, and that prescription is:

    more cowbell.

    1. Don’t you mean “more cow*pox*”?

      1. Rich, have you talked to your doctor about….Mad Cow Disease??

        Announcer: “Sponsored my Smith/Klein/Glaxo?

        1. “Doc, am I healthy enough for mad cow disease?”

  15. I don’t know where I stand on ebola quarantines yet, but it’s pretty clear that only government can fuck up contagious disease.

    We’ve come to the point where you can be detained for carrying money, but you can’t be detained during a contagious disease outbreak. In a society where the government didn’t come up with millions of petty crimes, people would be volunteering to be quarantined for disease risk rather than fighting it. But instead we have an authoritarian government that trusts nobody, and it has created a society where everybody distrusts everybody. I know we like to pretend we get a government that reflects society, but I think it’s pretty much been the other way around since the Great Depression where the vast majority of people learned to stop worrying and love central planning.

    1. Quarantines don’t pay well… Yet

  16. THIS WHOLE THREAD IS OUT OF ORDER!!!!

  17. As Orwell wrote, everyone eventually ends up loving Big Brother.

    Who knew Ebola was Room 101 for so many of the phony libertarians here?

    1. As much as you are often a trolling dipshit, I am also disturbed and disgusted by the simultaneous “the government and medical experts are wrong, let’s let other government and medical experts decide who to quarantine and do it without regard to law or symptoms” line that is coming out of so many here, and with such vehemence. People lose all rationality when they get afraid, and it seems especially when they are being extremely irrationally afraid.

      1. I agree that this case disturbs me (and I called early on for a possible quarantine of returning healthcare workers) that this seems to be entirely driven by someone in political office.

        If the CDC were on TV demanding she’d be quarantined, I’d be much more curious to know about bike helmets.

        I haven’t read any of the linked material. Is anyone on what’s left of any public health department demanding she finish out the 21 day quarantine?

        1. I too am in favor of legitimate quarantines, but it’s pretty obvious this is just “biosecurity theater” to help politicians get reeelected and has little to do with actual public saftey.

          And yet so many people you’d think would know better are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.

          1. To be fair (and I don’t like playing fair) it’s easy to see this through nothing more than the scope of Ebola itself. Ebola is a dangerous infectious disease. It has a 70% mortality rate. In rare cases, people can carry Ebola and be asymptomatic. In some reports, tests for Ebola have shown false negatives.

            However, when I see a politician saying shit like, “I’m Mike Horner, and I’ll FIGHT Ebola” (cue hoedown music) then it puts it all back in perspective.

          2. You are probably right that we’re mostly getting biosecurity theater from both sides of the argument because we’re so close to election day.

    2. It’s pretty simple really. If you do, in fact, have Ebola, you should be quarantined. If you might have been exposed, you should take precautions and self-monitor, but the police and the politicians should stay out of the picture.

      1. Unfortunately, the purpose of a quarantine is to make sure you don’t spread a disease while you may be infected, but asymptomatic, and your infection may be early enough to produce false negatives.

        but the police and the politicians should stay out of the picture.

        The police and politicians should be entirely out of the picture. The governor shouldn’t be on TV demanding a healthcare worker should be quarantined, the Ebola Czar should be- if it were medically necessary.

        1. The Ebola Czar is a political fixer for Democrats in trouble, such as President Obama, that’s why he’s invisible. Until the MD’s get their act together anything he does will just increase the eventual shit storm that will hit Washington.

      2. Me – I ain’t traveling to countries with populations wracked with ebola, nor am I in healthcare, and thus do not plan to care for anyone with or exposed to ebola.

        So – feeling pretty safe, all in all…

        As Late P B notes below, “first world sanitation is our friend.”

        1. As Late P B notes below, “first world sanitation is our friend.”

          +1 pressure washer!

    3. You think this is bad? Wait til there’s a Spanish/Captain Tripps-esque influenza outbreak.

  18. Dear Maine Tax Payers,

    How many zeros would care to add to this settlement check?

    Luv,

    Statey

    (The lovable oppression puppet)

  19. I’m torn on this one.

    To be honest, I am, too.

    But I am also deeply offended by the utter disregard for the freedom of these people by a bunch of hysterics who seem to have no grasp of the proportionality of the risks they face in daily life compared to the risk of an “ebola pandemic” here. First world sanitation is our friend.

    1. It comes down to statistics. It doesn’t matter what this, or really any other person, that’s been to Africa does. Nobody on here has Ebola, nobody here will know anyone that has Ebola, and nobody within 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon will get Ebola.

      1. Yeah, as I’ve noted elsewhere, I’m as afraid of TEH EBOLAZ!!11one1! as I am ISIS. As in, “not”.

        BUT – our the dumbfuck US govt has so managed to PWN themselves and look retarded that it’s thrown doubt into a lot of people, who….start to lean toward “better safe than sorry.”

        If I didn’t know better, I’d think the US govt set off this scare just to exercise even MOAR control. But we know they’d never do anythign evil like that, right?

        1. Holy fucking shit, Almanian, you’ve figuered it out. Our government’s goal, since facing zero reason to clamor for more security in “THIZ POST 911 WURLD” is to appear so fucking incompetent (I know, big challenge there) that we want more security just because our own government is that fucking retarded.

          1. “Look at how incompetent we are, don’t you want to hire more people to watch over us because of it?”

            1. Worked with TSA, IRS, edu-ma-cation….

            2. They’re only incompetent because they don’t have enough money.

          2. They’re covering ALL the bases now, anon. ALL. the. bases.

        2. “In order to prevent further spread of teaburculosis, I am invoking my power as president to create a 72 hour quarantine in all rural counties from November 1 to Novemeber 3”

          1. Oh, that is fucking BRILLIANT!!

          2. Well played, sir.

        3. The only fear of Ebola I have is that my government lacks the competence to do anything about it if it did become a problem.

    2. I would argue that a more libertarian solution would not involve involuntary restraint. There are few enough carriers that it would be pretty clear that she was the vector if the disease is past on.

      Give her the choice of quarantine/no quarantine and make it clear that if someone does develop Ebola due to her negligence she will be handed over to the victims family to be roasted on the funeral pyre. Her call

    3. First world sanitation is our friend.

      There is no evidence that Ebola is harder to spread than the flu or the common cold. And those spread like wildfire despite our “first world sanitation” every year.

  20. President Not My Fault hasn’t done many (any?) things right since in office but that pic they circulated of the nurse who had been cured of Ebola hugging him in the White House was one of the smarter things he’s ever done.

    The stigma attached to those in Africa that have been cured of the disease is almost turning out to be worse than the disease. Having Obama hug the nurse was a big deal to many of those in her shoes.

    That being said, WTF is wrong with these nurses and doctors who will willingly travel to an Ebola stricken nation yet refuse to stay inside for 21 days when they get home? It would be one thing if they were sending them to Guantanamo or something, but jesus come on. Fire up some Netflix and chill out for a few weeks. What’s the big deal?

    1. If the White House really wanted to show how low the risk in, they would have published the shots of her rubbing her ebolagina all over his face.

      1. Like I said, Clinton woulda got more than a hug.

    2. Why did I suddenly think of the sign in the Gem Saloon on “Deadwood”: Two Touches – 15 cents”

  21. Ebola is not airborne; it is transmitted through contact with the bodily fluids of people who are infected, a risk that does not arise until fever and other symptoms appear.

    Two issues, here.

    First, our best information is that Ebola is not airborne. However, “airborne” has a particular meaning in epidemiology. It means, more or less, that the virus itself, in isolation, can infect after airborne transmission.

    Most people probably have a broader definition, which would include airborne droplets containing the virus, like after a sneeze or cough. It is not at all clear that Ebola is not airborne in that fashion, at least at the very late stages.

    Second, its a little incomplete to say that its not transmissible until symptoms appear. Because its also transmissible, to some degree and notably as an STD, for up to 90 days after you recover.

    That is all. Carry on.

    1. First, our best information is that Ebola is not airborne. However…

      So you want quarantines to be based on the Peter Principle?

      I demand MegaloMonocle be immediately quaranteed for SuperAIDS. I mean sure as far as we know he doesn’t have SuperAIDS, and indeed SuperAIDS may not even exists. But can we risk an epidemic?

      1. You may have noticed that I took no position whatsoever on how to prevent Ebola from getting a toehold in this country.

        I merely pointed out a couple of items that are relevant.

        And how the Peter Principle (in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to their level of incompetence) might be relevant to epidemiology, I can’t imagine.

        Infectious disease is controlled not by reacting to current cases, but by reacting to potential cases in order to get ahead of it. The degree of action is driven by the mode of infection, and that’s an area where we don’t know as much about Ebola as a lot of people like to pretend.

        I’m torn on the best response. I tend to be very skeptical of proposed responses driven by politics (like both the President’s import ’em all and turn ’em loose strategy and the Maine Governor’s jail ’em all and let God sort ’em out approach).

        Try not to imagine what’s in my head. Worst case scenario: you’ll succeed.

        1. Try not to imagine what’s in my head. Worst case scenario: you’ll succeed.

          Is it monkeys? I bet it’s monkeys.

          1. Clowns.

        2. And how the Peter Principle (in a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to their level of incompetence) might be relevant to epidemiology, I can’t imagine.

          Sorry, I meant the Precautionary Principle.

      2. This is a very specific case, not a general quarantine. This person has been treating contagious, symptomatic ebola patients within the last 21 days. Your SuperAIDS comment makes no sense as an analogy because, unless you know something I don’t, there is no reason to believe that MegaloMonocle has been in close contact with SuperAIDS patients.

        Given the 70% mortality rate, some caution is reasonable.

    2. I immediately imagined explaining that STD to my wife.

    3. (RC, not a response, just piggybacking on the hospital lawyer…)

      Ignore ebola for a moment and realize the easiest place to get a contagious illness is at a hospital. I think too many health care professionals ignore that, and these are the same people who over-prescribe antibiotics to the point of reduced effectiveness.

      I wouldn’t worry about getting ebola from a crowded subway ride as much as I’d worry about getting it from a two-hour wait in the emergency room.

      1. On topic, I’m terrified of getting antibiotic resistant MRSA whenever I visit a hospital.

  22. no symptoms

    “Well, she DOES have a wart on her nose…”

    1. Does she weigh as much as a duck?

    2. Who are YOU who are so wise in the ways of SCIENCE?

  23. The problem with something like Ebola for libertarians is that on one hand we don’t want to panic (especially when that panic can be used to justify government coercion) but on the other hand we distrust the authorities, including the health authorities even when they are trying to calm us.

    Not to mention libertarianism is susceptible to conspiracy theories that the USG created/spread Ebola which doesn’t exactly show a tendency to not panic.

    1. I’m not sure libertarians have a problem with teh ebolas. I’m pretty sure at least everyone here knows they aren’t ever going to get it, even if someone that just got back from africa got shot and bled out on their brand new nikes.

      1. Yeah, that’s just what the Kochtopus wants you to believe.

        Sleep easy tonight, bro…

      2. The likelihood of Reason’s demographics (wealthy white males) getting shot by a cop is essentially zero too, yet we spend a lot of time talking about our problems with those occurrences. Maybe we’re not only concerned with things that will likely happen to us personally?

        1. The likelihood of Reason’s demographics (wealthy white males

          I’d change that to lower-middle-class white-ish males.

          getting shot by a cop is essentially zero too,

          I occasionally interact with the police, I don’t interact with Doctors-without-borders-workers.

          Having said that, my feelings on the Ebola “scare” are mostly neutral. But I fully admit to getting a bit annoyed when someone who spent the last three months standing among the Ebola-infected insists that she WILL go back to work in the food service industry without taking any time off.

    2. This. I’m not worried about Ebola, except when my government is running it.

  24. I’ll reiterate my suggestion from this morning. Any decisions about quarantining or self-quarantining should rest with Ms. Hickox herself. However, the law should stipulate that, in the event she forgoes any quarantine, any transmission of the disease will be a cause for legal action by the persons (or their estates) that she transmits it to.

    1. Tack this one on to the law allowing no age limit heroin vending machines on private property.

      1. How so? It strikes me as significantly less burdensome than a straight-out quarantine.

  25. PROPOSED: Teh Ebolaz is the new artisanal-mayonnaise-covered, deep-dish, (un?)circumcised, pot-smokin’, Messican immigration, and must receive at least 800 spittle-flecked responses to every post.

    DISCUSS!!

    Oh….

    1. you forgot abortion. f-.

      1. Well FUCK ME!!! FUCK!

        See everyone later. This was fun 🙂

      2. And he forgot teh buttsecks

    2. And you for Pabst Blue Ribbon drinking and Molly Ringwald watching.

  26. This is the perfect intersection for chicken shits and authoritarians.

    92 people die a day in car accidents but I doubt most here give that any fucking consideration every time they get in their car. Thousands die every year from seasonal flu which I’ve never seen a single god damn story on the news, ever, but I doubt most here freak the fuck out when they start coughing and running a fever.

    Yet some are more than willing for some extra judicial quarantining because someone might have it and might spread it and someone might die. And the authoritarians are more than using this as a modus operendi to suspend what free travel we have left.

    After the first 20,000 people actually die, then I might change my mind. But, then again, I’m rooting for Ebola.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L…..S._by_year

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/d…..deaths.htm

    1. I doubt most here DON’T* freak the fuck out….

      1. I liked the citations provided without provocation. A+.

        And that’s after deducting points for the low 20k threshold.

    2. This is the perfect intersection for chicken shits and authoritarians.

      Yes, this is a more succinct (and insulting, natch) way of stating what some of us have been saying in other (hopefully less insulting, natch) ways. The chicken shits dump a load in their pants, and the authoritarians come running with statist “solutions” to which the chicken shits are all too amenable because they’re irrationally terrified. The authoritarians are using the chicken shits, and they need to realize their fear is being used, and stop shitting their pants.

      1. So … business as usual, then?

      2. You realize you’re talking about 99% of the population here.

        Calling them chickenshit authoritarians may earn you ooohs and aaaahs from the few dozen people following this blog, but it’s not going to get you anywhere with real people.

    3. “92 people die a day in car accidents but I doubt most here give that any fucking consideration every time they get in their car.”
      Meaningless; this is not an alternative, it is added to existing dangers, and I’m sure we all avoid crashing as much as we can.

      “Thousands die every year from seasonal flu which I’ve never seen a single god damn story on the news, ever, but I doubt most here freak the fuck out when they start coughing and running a fever.”
      Meaningless. Again this is in addition and we can (and most do) get flu shots.

      I’ll assume you’re being facetious regarding 20,000 deaths; what level of danger justifies quarantine?

  27. The Late P Brooks|10.29.14 @ 5:50PM|#

    Does the disease generate spontaneously? Is it completely invisible during the incubation period? Is there a (blood?) test capable of detecting the presence of teh Ebolians other than the all too obvious symptoms?

    Here’s an informative article.

    Basically, the virus resides and replicates initially in tissues like the spleen or liver and not in the bloodstream. Symptoms start to occur when the virus gets released into the blood. From what I’ve read elsewhere (but cannot find), the PCR test noted in the article can detect the virus one or two days before symptoms appear, but I guess that is going to depend on how quickly the virus is released into the blood.

    I’m not for a quarantine, but I think these doctors should be more diligent in their self-monitoring during the 21-day (95% of the cases) or 42-day (98%) period. I.e., take frequent blood tests and be in an open environment (not a closed one like a subway) so they can quickly remove themselves in case they are going to sneeze or worse, vomit.

  28. I look at the Ebola response as a good test case for how authorities will address the real and inevitable upcoming threat: Zombie Apocalypse. And I give the government a failing grade. I can hear it now:

    “Don’t shoot the zombies in the head; you can’t be sure if they’re symptomatic. It can only be spread through a direct bite, and it is unlikely undead individuals with skulls as soft as ripe melons will have the jaw strength to tear your flesh. Their musculature will atrophy or necrotize beyond being ambulant long before they can spread the disease.”

    ALL BULLSHIT. I’m going full prepper.

    1. There are no zombies for the obvious reason that from an evolutionary standpoint making your primary predator your only food source and means of reproduction is not a very effective survival strategy.

      1. Look, just because they don’t exist yet doesn’t mean they won’t.

        1. Stormy will be one of them pretty early in the run. Mark my words.

      2. THE WALKING DEAD IS A DOCUMENTARY!

        1. NO, no, that’s Highlander. The Walking Dead is a prophecy.

          1. Fuck you and your proper use of italics.

    2. Will Bailey be on touting the virtues of Phalanx against this threat?

  29. I am not so concerned about this woman. She has committed no crime and poses a very small, approaching zero, chance of infecting anyone. If she hasn’t committed any crime then no one can detain her, place her under house arrest, whatever.

    My concern is about the protocols being used when treated actual confirmed cases. If medical personnel are being infected then the protocols are not effective. I have talked to three nurses in the last week who are being trained and prepping their hospitals for ebola and they all say the same thing; The CDC is a bunch of assholes who have no idea what they are doing.

    1. Now that I believe, and while it doesn’t worry me personally, if I were a nurse/doctor who might have to deal with Ebola patients using CDC protocol, yes, I’d be getting worried.

    2. The CDC federal government is a bunch of assholes who have no idea what they are doing.

      ftfy

    3. “If she hasn’t committed any crime then no one can detain her, place her under house arrest, whatever.”

      You cannot detain her if she has Ebola then, because being infected with a deadly disease is not a crime.

    4. If she hasn’t committed any crime then no one can detain her, place her under house arrest, whatever.

      Libertarian dogma vs. reality…. I have a feeling reality is going to win.

  30. PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE SMASH!

  31. Did people shit their pants this badly when AIDS was new?

    1. Oh my, yes. Explosively so.

      1. How about when Spanish Flu was new?

        1. Yes, but they were shitting their pants as they actually died from the Spanish Flu

        2. IIRC Spanish flu should be called Kansas flu because the news of the initial infections were thoroughly squashed by the US government so as not to impede the war effort. It wasn’t until the flu broke out in neutral Spain that it hit the news. Of course by that time, people all over the US were dropping like flies. My great grandmother who was a baby at the time was the only child amongst her 8 siblings to survive.

  32. Basically, the virus resides and replicates initially in tissues like the spleen or liver and not in the bloodstream. Symptoms start to occur when the virus gets released into the blood. From what I’ve read elsewhere (but cannot find), the PCR test noted in the article can detect the virus one or two days before symptoms appear, but I guess that is going to depend on how quickly the virus is released into the blood.

    Thanks. My question was really whether the disease can be detected prior to the onset of symptoms. Apparently not (easily).

    1. I guess they could do a biopsy, but that would be highly invasive and the risks far outweigh the benefits at this point, in my opinion.

  33. Cripes, Ebola sure brings out the best from commenters. Anyone with more concerns than the designated Top Men will publicly state is labeled a pants-shitting hysteric. Anyone who thinks there might be a role for government in preventing disease outbreaks is labeled a jack-booted totalitarian. And Lady Bertrum gets called a cunt for no good reason that I can see. Sheesh. Just because we are conversing under handles doesn’t mean we can’t be calm and polite, folks.

    1. TIWTANFL. 😉

    2. Fuck you, Papaya. (If that even is your real name.)

  34. Question for those opposing the quarantine:
    Is there a quantity of cases where a quarantine becomes appropriate, or is (coerced) quarantine never appropriate?

    1. I think a quarantine would be appropriate when/if it can be shown that casual contact (a sneeze, sweating) can transmit the disease at the onset of symptoms. Self-monitoring (if followed diligently) seems the most appropriate.

      Actually, I think I’d be more concerned about transmitting it sexually since they say the virus can be transmitted via semen for up to 3 months after recovery. Which begs the question, can you re-infect yourself if your semen comes in contact with an open wound or if you swallow your semen.

      1. Which begs the question, can you re-infect yourself if your semen comes in contact with an open wound or if you swallow your semen.

        Did the virus somehow mutate itself in the time that you ejaculated so that the antibodies you built up are no longer of any use?

        If not, no.

        1. Yeah, I was going to mention antibodies, but I googled re-infection and got a bunch of results that indicate that it is possible. I decided on brevity of my post rather than thoroughness.

          http://www.naij.com/279159-cur…..ected.html

          Though, it doesn’t specifically state re-infection via yourself, only from another carrier.

      2. “I think a quarantine would be appropriate when/if it can be shown that casual contact (a sneeze, sweating) can transmit the disease at the onset of symptoms.”

        OK:
        “Ebola is spread through direct contact (through broken skin or mucous membranes in, for example, the eyes, nose, or mouth) with:
        (bullet) blood or body fluids (including but not limited to urine, saliva, sweat, feces, vomit, breast milk, and semen) of a person who is sick with Ebola”
        http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/
        ————–
        If I use the treadmill in the gym after the guy who’s just now showing symptoms, and then wipe my nose, it seems to me that I might have problems, no?

        1. Yeah, I don’t know. I’m guessing the symptoms need to progress enough to reach a certain level of viral load. At that point, the probability curve likely ramps up significantly. Just going by the single US case, the transmission to the two nurses only occurred when he was far into his symptoms (with, presumably, a high viral load). He didn’t infect his family or anyone else at the onset of his symptoms.

          1. That sample size makes me a bit nervous.

            1. Well, I guess I’m trusting the research currently being done in West Africa that would have much more data to draw better conclusions. If it deviated too readily from the above case, then I would be hopeful that researchers and journalists would point this out. I think it would be too hard for the US Government to control the narrative in this case.

              1. To be clear, I’m not proposing any conscious effort to mislead, other than the run-of-the-mill politico sort.
                But you seem fairly certain that the transmission data from W. Africa is transferable to the conditions in the US?
                I’m asking in that the conditions I see (obviously ‘in the news’) from W.A. seems to lack a lot of control, resulting in what I’d guess to be questionable data.

                1. I’m guessing the data would include more clinical analyses using laboratory animals. The real-world West Africa data would be used to corroborate these results.

                  I am certainly no expert, though. I just try not to fall into precautionary principle-thinking. Would I be up in “libertarian arms” if they required a quarantine? No. But, I think a quarantine is more security theater and less effective than diligent self-monitoring.

                  This certainly doesn’t absolve the CDC (and the government, in general) from the massive screw-ups that have happened regarding protocol and messaging.

                  1. “I just try not to fall into precautionary principle-thinking. Would I be up in “libertarian arms” if they required a quarantine? No. But, I think a quarantine is more security theater and less effective than diligent self-monitoring.”

                    I would say you’re headed 05* and my course is 355*. Problem with my 355 is that it means sticking someone in ‘jail’ at gun-point and that isn’t something to be taken lightly.
                    Thanks for the comments; I’ll ride this damn rail until my ass hurts enough to fall off one side or the other.

  35. Ron Bailey has been advocating mandatory vaccinations on this blog because not being vaccinated is a violation of the NAP somehow, but a 21 day precautionary quarantine for someone who has been in epidemic hot zone is beyond the pale? I don’t understand the logic here.

    1. I don’t understand the logic here.
      TOP MEN aren’t saying that Ebola is a threat, while they are saying that vaccines are good.

      1. “We have to defer to the authority of health care professionals”

        Like those dogfuckers at the CDC who say guns are stagnant ponds full of anopheles mosquitoes or doctors and nurses who spread antibiotic resistant infections in hospitals(killing How many 100s of thousands each year?) because they are too “professional” to wash their fucking hands correctly.

    2. To be fair this isn’t Ron Bailey, it’s Sullum. Bailey seems to be the furthest afield from libertarian ideology, especially in health matters. I suspect not a few of the Reason writers oppose mandatory vaccination for MMR, etc.

      1. Reason has written extensively on the mandatory vaccination topic, and although a few dissenters, they come down squarely in the mandatory camp. Unfortunately, health/science isn’t a strong suite and differentiation among vaccines, including experimental, non-communicable, low-risk, etc. doesn’t seem to be relevant.

    3. Because being imprisoned for a month is far more of an infringement of your liberties than the momentary pain of getting stuck with a needle?

      1. Quarantine is only forced on those who’ve had contact with the disease. Vaccination is forced on everyone.

        Arguably involuntaryily having stuff injected into your body is more noisome than being imprisoned.

      2. Vaccinations carry risk to health, particularly those that use a live virus. Forcing risk on someone is an infringement of liberties. Personal anecdote: my godson nearly died from a flu vaccination administered at an inopportune time.

  36. Am I the only one suspicious of this whole circus? She was apparently lined up with multiple lawyers right off the bat. There’s been hardly any mention of her working for the CDC and her LinkedIn account was wiped while she was in the hospital. This has the smell of a setup all over it.

    1. There you go. She’s cheesed off because she KNOWS she doesn’t have Ebola because she got the secret army vaccine to the weaponized strain of Ebola that the CDC ‘accidentally’ released in Western Africa as a false flag operation so Obama could be dictator for life.

      1. I think we need something about the grassy knoll…

        1. The place where the secret CIA film that is shown to all incoming presidents to make sure they don’t get any funny ideas about actually being in charge was made?

          1. Ah! I see I’m in contact with ‘one who knows’!

            1. I AM an Agent of the Bureau of Sabotage, after all.

              1. No, not tinfoil hat type setup. More a political setup between the WH and CDC to try and validate their so far incompetent looking response.

    2. Agreed – no real record and the media isn’t investigating.

    3. This has the smell of a setup all over it.

      Yep –

      She’s the dimocrats October Surprise; except that it’s blowing up in their faces instead of propelling them to victory.

  37. She’s attractive… I’d lick her ebola clit.

  38. My proposal: have doctors coming back from W. Africa spend 21 days at the White House in honor of their heroism. Sharing bathrooms and meals with the First Family, maybe even helping to prepare meals for the Obamas, the whole nine yards.

    I mean, the science is settled, so what possible problem could he have with this idea?

    1. I think this is a proposal we can all get behind.

  39. The 21 days of quarantine is supposed to be the final step of the Ebola screening process. The idea is that if you’re healthy after 21 days since your contact with Ebola, you’re home free.

    If the initial negative result is definitive, then were would be no need for a quarantine. But that’s apparently not the case.

    I would be frustrated if I was quarantined in a small tent with a portable toilet. But I could manage 21 quarantine days inside my own home. I would tell my family and friends to stay the heck away from me in that time.

    1. Imagine your frustration if you were dying of Ebola.

  40. Given Ms. Hickox’s conduct and attitude to date there is no reason for the Governor of Maine (or me) to believe that she will react properly if she develops the “fever precedes the contagious stage.” She is much too self-centered to be trusted with the welfare of the 1.3 million people of Maine.

    She is as arrogant as the doctor in NYC who walked about town AFTER he developed a fever thus exposing hundreds to undeserved risk. An M.D. or an RN certification is not a vaccine against Ebola. They have medical licenses from the State not blessings from God.

  41. Facts followed by links showing where they are from, i.e., not the Alex Jones website. The links are to stories that are long, hence the list of facts to boil it down.

    1. You don’t have to be symptomatic to be a carrier.

    2. One in 8 ebola patients never ran a fever, so taking your temperature isn’t enough.

    3. You generally have to be symptomatic to test positive (depending on which test), so in the field people get tested more than once before being declared clear of the disease.

    4. Not being “airborne” doesn’t mean what you think it does. If someone sneezes or coughs, and ebola is in droplets that fly through the air, it’s not “airborne.” Airborne, in medical terms, means suspended in dust that stays aloft longer and travels farther. But droplets are thought (because of experience with infected pigs and monkeys) to be able to travel through heating and A/C ducts.

    5. The current strain is thought to be the most lethal and virulent of the known varieties.

    6. Dozens of doctors and nurses in Africa have gotten ebola and died, even though they are wearing protective gear.

    7. It only takes one virus particle to be infected, and a single droplet might have 100,000 particles.

    8. Ebola has no trouble penetrating skin.

    (to be cont’d)

    1. 9. All of the effective treatment drug is gone, and there won’t be more than a couple hundred doses available within 6 months. Vaccine? Not during this epidemic.

      10. There was 1 case in Africa last December. By early 2015, there will be more than 1 million. Look up “exponential.”

      11. Dozens of countries, especially in Africa and South America and the Mideast, closed their borders and cancelled flights months ago.

      12. The U.S. military has just announced a 21-day quarantine. Which might not be long enough.

      13. You can get ebola by touching the hospital bed of a patient with an ungloved hand.

      (to be cont’d)

      1. MY CONCLUSION

        Libertarian children and civil liberties playtime activists, the Constitution is not a goddamned suicide pact. Quarantine? You’d better fucking believe it. That bitch in Maine? If I were in charge, the state police would have a shoot to kill order. I’d make sure that whoever recovered the body was dressed in a moon suit.

        Yep, it hasn’t broken out yet in this country. That’s because we’ve been lucky, so far. You want to rely on luck going forward? Fuck you. How old are some of you people? 19? Fuck you.

        p.s.: This site’s software won’t take the links. Do your own research. They were all from top-notch sources, but if “Reason” has shitty software, too bad. Do your own research. And if you don’t want to believe it, fine.

        1. There’s a limit of two links per post.

  42. I’m not sure Kaci Hickox should be locked up, but she’s definitely a gigantic douchebag and shameless attention whore.

    Won’t even negotiate to limit exposure after conficting results ona fever for a disease with a 70% fatality rate? AYFKM? She seems unstable. I’ll bet we find out she belongs to some crazy far left group and says things like “Americans deserve to get Ebola.”

Please to post comments

Comments are closed.