Police Abuse

Papers Please? St. Paul Cop Harassed Black Man Waiting For His Kids for ID, Caught on Tape

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St. Paul cop
You Tube

While voter identification laws are a hot button issue in national politics, those laws aren't usually discussed in the broader context of identification requirements in various aspects of everyday life.  For starters, border patrol agents dozens of miles away from an international border ask for identification purportedly to root out illegal immigrants. Identification is required at the doctor's office, for increasing amount of medication, at the airport, on trains and now even for some interstate bus trips, for renting a car, getting into most government buildings, and so on in that manner. A mere fifteen years ago much of this may have seemed unthinkable.

So while the debate over whether voter ID laws are effective or whether they infringe on the right to vote (which ought to be universal given citizenship, which should be based on residency and necessary and proper paperwork) continues, it misses the point that citizens and non-citizens alike who don't have identification have a harder time accessing all kinds of goods and services, government and otherwise, often due to government regulations and edicts.

This is not just an issue of taking a bus instead of flying, as former homeland security secretary Janet Napolitano once suggested for those tired of the security theater at the airport. And a bus is increasingly not an option either. In Houston Representative Barbara Jackson Lee (D) lauded the Department of Homeland Security sending TSA agents onto local buses!

Eventually it becomes about the freedom of movement at the most basic level. Witness this interaction between an officer and a man who told them he was waiting to pick up his kids from the local charter school. Note how quickly it escalates despite the man's calm demeanor, all over a demand to produce identification:

Minnesota City Pages identified the man, who spoke to them, as Chris Lollie. He was arrested for "disorderly conduct" and "obstructing the legal process," and was charged with those crimes as well as trespassing. They were, unsurprisingly, all dropped. Police insist they were dealing with an "uncooperative male refusing to leave" and said there were no complaints filed after the incident (many incidents of police brutality can go unreported), which happened in January but video of which only emerged online this month. The YouTube user who posted claims the cellphone was seized for six months (likely the length of time before charges were dropped and the "investigation" ended).

If it's a war zone out there for cops, it's the "civilians" that often seem most at risk.

Sensible rules of engagement for cops, as well as effective disciplinary processes, are needed to attempt to root out behaviors and attitudes like those of the officer's in the video.

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  1. Guys, Obama has already weighed in and said how he’s going to handle this:

    https://vine.co/v/MlEQUZ2BidW

    1. The man even has Carter’s fashion sense. Down in NC, you get occasional all-lane traffic stops on major highways, license check bullshit on small county roads, and speed traps. Don’t know about black profiling issues, but you’ll never get them to admit that these stupid exercises have little to do with law enforcement.

      1. But this utterly EVIL black person was obviously a TERRORIST, can’t y’all see!?!?!? Obliviously he was a follower of Bokum Haramsters, and that kinda shit is NOT gonna fly here in the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave! Talkin’ back to his them thar betters, how DARE he?!?!?
        Scienfoology Song? GAWD = Government Almighty’s Wrath Delivers

        Government loves me, This I know,
        For the Government tells me so,
        Little ones to GAWD belong,
        We are weak, but GAWD is strong!
        Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
        Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
        Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
        My Nannies tell me so!

        GAWD does love me, yes indeed,
        Keeps me safe, and gives me feed,
        Shelters me from bad drugs and weed,
        And gives me all that I might need!
        Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
        Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
        Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
        My Nannies tell me so!

        DEA, CIA, KGB,
        Our protectors, they will be,
        FBI, TSA, and FDA,
        With us, astride us, in every way!
        Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
        Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
        Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
        My Nannies tell me so!

    2. Sebastian . I just agree… Helen `s artlclee is astonishing, I just bought Chevrolet when I got my cheque for $6747 this-last/month and would you believe, ten k last-month . without a doubt it is the nicest work Ive had . I actually started 8-months ago and straight away made myself over $78, p/h .
      100% free registration——- http://www.jobsfish.com

  2. Female cop: “Didn’t I ask you to stop and talk with me?”
    Victim: “Why did I have to stop, I was talking to you the whole way.”
    Female cop: “Because I asked you to.”
    victim: “Who are you? You don’t rule me.”

    He should be able to sue these cops personally for kidnapping.

    1. kidnapping is a crime. But I think this falls under unlawful arrest, and assault.

  3. He was arrested for “disorderly conduct” and “obstructing the legal process,” and was charged with those crimes as well as trespassing. They were, unsurprisingly, all dropped.

    This shit is both common and maddening. Are there any ideas out there for how to stop this sort of petty tyranny?

    As much as it might such for taxpayers maybe the right to make a claim against the department where the department must prove to an independent board or such that it acted reasonably else the falsely arrested individual is awarded damages?

    1. Are there any ideas out there for how to stop this sort of petty tyranny?

      Practically speaking, move to where they aren’t.

      1. Freedom requires a frontier, ja? :/

        1. I recommend a sturdy houseboat with a very long anchor chain.

          1. Maybe the solution is to require them all to post on Facebook for a minimum of two hours a day.

            A Glendale police officer suspended last Friday after commenting on Facebook that he thought Ferguson protesters should be “put down like rabid dogs,” has been fired, officials say.

            Matthew Pappert, suspended with pay last week, was fired Thursday after an internal investigation wrapped up Wednesday, said Glendale City Administrator Jaysen Christensen.

            Pappert’s comments also included postings that said Ferguson protesters were “a burden on society and a blight on the community.” Another posting said, “Where is a Muslim with a backpack when you need them?”

            1. It’s amazing to me what people will post on Facebook: stupidity, racism, evidence of crimes they’ve committed….

            2. I recommend this as well as a sturdy houseboat with a very long anchor chain.

            3. He’ll be back on the force again. Arbitration, man, arbitration.

    2. Are there any ideas out there for how to stop this sort of petty tyranny?

      A season with liberal limits?

    3. Remove their immunity. If they knew they’d get sued and be personally liable for this kind of crap, it would end tomorrow

    4. Police unions are responsible for the full cost of any lawsuits or damages that arise from police misconduct where misconduct is determined to be any behavior which is counter to established law or departmental procedures.

      Lack of training does not absolve the union of responsibility either.

      If the union lacks the funds to reimburse the department for the costs then the money will be withdrawn from the departments pension fund and loaned to the Union.

      If the union is disbanded then the individual officers on the force shall be jointly responsible in leiu of the union.

      Hit the cops where it hurts and they will magically start policing each other.

  4. I’ve always wondered into what camps or divisions this failing republic would divide itself into once things start getting really bad: blacks vs. whites, the elite vs the poor, red vs. blue? It seems to me to becoming more clear. There is the camp that believes that you should show your ID, promote security, do as your told, seek permission from your betters, avoid risk, and respect authority.

    Another group questions authority, loves freedom, entertains risk, seeks thrills, and takes responsibility for their actions. In a word authoritarians vs. those who wish to left alone.

    1. Another group questions authority, loves freedom, entertains risk, seeks thrills, and takes responsibility for their actions.

      Gonna be hard to do all of that from inside a camp.

    2. I think you’re wrong, in part because every predator would want to be in your second group, so it would not function long as one “camp.”

      1. Why would they? They don’t get to be predators for long in the second camp.

        In the first, all they have to do is play the politics game, and they’re untouchable for the rest of their careers.

    3. Obligatory Heinlein quote

      Political tags – such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth – are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

      1. +1 for Grok

    4. Sounds like my workplace. I don’t fit in.

    5. The camps are already divided. I’ll never live in a big city, even in a red state. Living in an urban area requires a level of submission I am no longer willing to make.

      Local cops rarely pull this shit – too many people who know him personally would get pissed. The Mayor and Town Council would catch hell and it wouldn’t happen again.

    6. Serious question: if you are against ID’s, can you be for “secure borders”? How do you prove you can come home if you don’t have an ID?

      1. if you are against ID’s, can you be for “secure borders”?

        Sure, the only thing I care about regarding secure borders is that armed hordes don’t come through all at once. But if unarmed individuals come through the border in peace, then decide to congregate later and take up arms, I’m fine with that because that’s essentially what the terrorists in blue have done. So the “secured border” doesn’t really do anything to stop such a scheme.

    7. Eloi and Morlochs?

  5. As much as I enjoy the left-baiting aspect of the story, the question is not whether police committed battery against a black man, but whether they committed battery against anyone.

    The problem isn’t racism. The problem are state employees who are out of control.

    1. Would the persona have been harassed if he was white? or if he was a chick?

      1. Replace would with could and you’ll have a debate.

        1. I’m being glib, but the point is that we shouldn’t be pissed off that there’s this innocent black guy being harassed or this innocent gay guy being harassed or this innocent Calvinist being harassed. It’s that there’s someone being harassed at all by a state entity empowered by political power to do so.

          1. I agree. Usually I don’t mention the race, but I always try to use a picture. It seems like Chris was profiled. I’ve been asked by cops for ID when I had none too, suspected of being a bike thief in one case. I connected the race here to connect the broader ID issue, which does affect poorer, marginalized communities. Police brutality, too, affects poorer, marginalized communities disproportionately for a whole slew of reasons, not the least of which is racism.

            1. I understand where you’re coming from. You’re one of the good guys, Ed.

            2. Also at work is confirmation bias + careerism. Everyone “knows” that black people commit more crimes, including the police. Particularly where a lot of victimless crimes are concerned I believe there is a feedback loop born of fishing in a barrel for great justice and promotions.

            3. IOW, it was click bait for the Tumblr crowd that just discovered Reason after the whole Ferguson thing.

            4. Ed|8.28.14 @ 7:51PM

              This just made me sick at my stomach.

              Ed the Democrat’s name is Shelia Jackson Lee and a piece of work she is. She would be worth an entire article in itself.

              We once had a black female Texas Democrat politician who’s first name was Barbara. She was at the opposite end of the smart, educated, and common sense measure than “triple crown weave” Shelia.

              I would recommend all Reasonites to youtube Barbara Jordan and listen to her speeches.

            5. The sad fact is that the US is a police state. This is true regardless of race, though blacks get more police abuse than others.

              As a practical matter, the correct objective in any encounter with the state is to survive it and get it over with as soon as possible. If this can be accomplished by showing an id, I’d do it. Hats off to this guy but it is not practical to behave this way in a police state.

              1. “The sad fact is that the US is a police state.”

                Nonsense. The sad fact is that the police have millions of lawful encounters with citizens every week, and the few assholes who fuck it up are the ones who get the publicity.

                I’ve been in “police states”. While we may be on our way to becoming one unless we put the brakes on, we’re nowhere close to being one yet.

                Roughly half of American families own firearms, including about half-a-million legal machine guns. The only way we’ll ever become a police state is if we allow it.

                1. Nonsense. The sad fact is that the police have millions of lawful encounters with citizens every week, and the few assholes who fuck it up are the ones who get the publicity.

                  While it may be legitimate to debate whether or not we’re a police state, I don’t think it’s fair to call it nonsense. Since the designation on ‘nonsense’ should generally be regarded for claims with absolutely no rational basis whatsoever. There’s a ton of decent arguments for the existence of a police state.

                  The sad fact is that the police have millions of lawful encounters with citizens every week, and the few assholes who fuck it up are the ones who get the publicity.

                  The North Korean police have lots of lawful encounters with their citizens on their territory too. In fact, I’d bet the lawfulness of North Korean police interaction approaches 100%.

                  1. “The North Korean police have lots of lawful encounters with their citizens on their territory too. In fact, I’d bet the lawfulness of North Korean police interaction approaches 100%.”

                    That’s a really big straw-man you’ve erected there. The NORK government is a dictatorship, with absolute control over every aspect of its subject’s lives. It’s the epitome of a police state. The US is not even remotely similar.

                    1. That’s a really big straw-man you’ve erected there. The NORK government is a dictatorship, with absolute control over every aspect of its subject’s lives. It’s the epitome of a police state. The US is not even remotely similar.

                      How is it a straw man? You didn’t say there were millions of moral interactions between police and citizens, you said there were millions of lawful interactions between police and citizens. Maybe the point whooshed over your head, but in places where there is a police state, it’s legal. Which should not be a surprise at all. So saying that most interactions are lawful says absolutely nothing about whether or not it’s a police state.

                    2. “The term lawful more clearly suggests an ethical content than does the word legal. The latter merely denotes compliance with technical or formal rules, whereas the former usually signifies a moral substance or ethical permissibility.”

                      Maybe the point whooshed over your head, but any interaction between law enforcement and the citizenry that violates the Constitutional rights of that citizenry is both unlawful, and illegal.

                      Get back to me in regards to us being a “police state” when the US Government can lawfully and legally kill you and your entire family for your expressing dissenting political views.

                    3. The term lawful more clearly suggests an ethical content than does the word legal

                      Yes ethical content of the law. The words legal and lawful are often interchangeable, the words ethical and lawful are not interchangeable because whatever their relationship to each other, they aren’t the same thing. Something cannot be said to be lawful if it’s not legal. Laws can be changed by fiat.

                      any interaction between law enforcement and the citizenry that violates the Constitutional rights of that citizenry is both unlawful, and illegal.

                      Please tell me which of the Constitutional rights the North Koreans have had violated by their police forces in order to describe such action as unlawful.

                      Get back to me in regards to us being a “police state” when the US Government can lawfully and legally kill you and your entire family for your expressing dissenting political views.

                      So how political dissent is treated, is the metric? You could spend you entire life writing about just the federal alphabet soup agencies destroying people’s lives and you’d never be able to document all the cases. The police state is not monolithic it’s a patchwork of laws, bureaus, judicial rubber stamps, norms and practices all the way down to the local level.

                      Not all police states are created equal. Just because you don’t live in a clone copy of 1984 or your dear leader’s name isn’t Kim, doesn’t mean it’s not a police state.

                2. Few assholes who fuck it up? Sorry, but it’s more than a few assholes. It’s the overall attitude of superior authority that police carry around with them constantly. Yes, there are good cops out there, lots of them. But why aren’t these “good” cops helping to weed out the bad ones? If your fellow officer doesn’t have the intellect or disposition to be a servant of the people as they are supposed to be, these “good” cops should be obligated to weeding out the “bad” ones and changing the overall attitude of the police from adversarial to something more conducive to working with the public.

          2. Yes, but Calvinists don’t count for much as a status signal.

            1. Not since the old days when one’s religious affiliation was legitimate grounds for homicide. Calvinists were arguably one of the meanest denominations when it came their murdering.

              1. Whaddya mean “was?” The Ulster Defense Force is rife with Presbyterians, and they’re Calvinists.

                Disclaimer: armed nutbar “Catholics” on the other side are just as bad, if not worse.

                In both cases. these are cultural markers, not real faith commitments.

                Kevin R
                Blissful ex-Catholic

      2. Yes, a white woman who looked like trailer trash might have been harassed. A female yuppie? No way in hell. I’d argue all of this is more of a class issue. It’s just that many blacks are in, or if not treated as if they are in, the lower class that cops are allowed to be shitty to.

        1. Yep. He probably looked young and poor, and that was enough.

        2. Good-looking women would have their cars stopped so the male cop can find their address to ask them for a date later.

        3. So that chick wasn’t arrested for jaywalking in Austin. OK. I thought that happened, but you’re saying it didn’t.

          1. So you’re saying rich and poor, black and white are treated equally by the police in this country?

            /guy with poor reading comprehension

            Did the chick in Austin get screamed at and tazed for no reason? Was she arrested for “loitering” and failing to show ID, or actually violating some statute? Not a great analogy there. The cops went into this situation thinking “we gotta stop this black guy up to no good”, though he had done nothing wrong, and it became self-fulfilling. In Austin, she was seen doing something wrong, however minor.

            1. You are less likely to be harassed if you are well-off and good looking, but you are not immune. At a college town near me a blond female student walked by an arrest when cop asked her to “stop looking at me.” She made some comment and kept walking.

              She ended up on the sidewalk with a chipped tooth.

      3. If it was a good-looking woman, yes the cops would harass her.

        1. Or worse, if it was Philly.

      4. Happens all the time. Even blond white chicks on college campuses have run afoul of the “if you claim you are minding your own business I will put your ass on the ground” school of law enforcement.

        I’m sure it is worse for blacks in some areas, but the attempt to make police brutality into a purely racial issue means it will NEVER be made better.

    2. Listen, he sends his kids to a charter school. We already know what sort of antisocial government-hating wackaloon racist he is.

      1. He sends his kids to a government school?

    3. Agreed. Even the militarization angle misses the point, really, all though, to a lesser degree, I think, that the issue is the emergence of feudalism in American society. “The King’s Men” is scarcely a joke anymore.

      1. Feudalism, as in democracy is just a pointless gesture because all the real power is held by collection of three-letter federal agencies and a few local muckity-mucks.

  6. On the one hand, yes, this guy is definitely black. So at first blush this does seem concerning.

    But then at 4:12 he uses the term “gay” in what seems to be a disparaging manner, so one can only assume that these brave officers correctly identified and apprehended a dangerous thoughtcriminal. Alas, it seems that through no fault of their own he escaped the system to thoughtcrime another day.

    1. You got over 4 minutes into it? I got so pissed off after 1:30 I couldn’t continue.

      How do you guys watch the entire thing?

    2. I think he asks, “Why are you grabbing my dick? Are you gay?”

      I think it’s permissible to ask if someone is gay when they are doing a dick-grab without the owner’s consent. Someone should consult a college sexual harassment manual to make sure if “Use of the word ‘gay'” trumps “‘No’ Means ‘No,'” or if it’s the other way around.

      At any rate, it’s all his fault for calling that mouthbreather-in-blue “brother,” instead of getting on his knees and immediately fellating as is now required by law in at least 17 states.

      1. as is now required by law in at least 17 states

        OT observation: made-up numbers that purport to be factual reports — whether seriously or in jest — often end in 7 or are twice seven (14).

  7. The primary job of the police is controlling of all the uppity, smarty-ass, rights-asserting trouble makers.

    Without total freedom to make an example of anyone who dares to claim they don’t have to do exactly what a cop tells them to do, society would fall apart.

    He should be grateful that he only got tasered and locked up. The police showed a lot of restraint in not giving him the beat down he had coming.

    1. Poe’s law. I pray it’s sarcasm, but it’s hard to tell anymore.

      1. When in doubt, first assume Tulpa, then assume sarcasm, and thirdly real emotion.

        This advice is equally useful on first dates.

      2. Sorry, I was going for sarcasm, except for the first sentence being, unfortunately, very close to the truth.

        I thought that anyone on this site would just assume that, although there do seem to be a few cop-suckers around.

    2. If he was a rich white guy in a suit he would have received such a beating!!!!

  8. Speaking of ID:

    I thought it was Shiela, not Houston Representative Barbara Jackson Lee (D)

    1. Hey Ed, wanna see where the astronauts planted the flag on Mars?

  9. I want to take a moment to thank past and present Reason contributors, especially Balko, for opening my eyes to this stuff.

    5 years ago I was blissfully unaware. Now whenever I see cops so much as talking to someone, I pull my cellphone out and get ready to start filming.

    And my nuts hurt like hell.

    1. You’re a better person than I am. I just try to get as far away as possible.

  10. I have been stopped a few times and asked to show ID. I showed it and there was no problem.

    I think there are far better examples of police abuse than this one. This falls under the “be polite” rule from “How Not to Get Your Ass Kicked by the Police”.

    /flinches in anticipation of tomatoes.

    On a related note, here is a longer version of the Eric Garner incident. Note his arguing with the police:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ka4oKu1jo

    Arguing with the police is a bad idea.

    1. This is the practical way of responding in a police state.

      It essential that people understand that, despite their indoctrination in K-12, the US is a police state, not a truly free country.

      1. Charlotte Twight, the Economist, calls it “Participatory Fascim”. She writes about Economic History and Political Economy, but I think the term fits our “system” quite well.

    2. What about the victim’s conduct was impolite? I don’t go around demanding ID from every person I meet, that’s just rude. It’s the cops who were impolite here.

  11. It really needs to be said in the original German to have full effect…

    1. I don’t think the US cops bother with the “bitte” part anymore.

  12. So, how will he be able to punish these bad actors? Will he stop paying his taxes? They would send letters, and eventually those boys and girls in their costumes would be sent to confiscate his property. Could he contact the company advising of these agents that are abusive, whereby the company would fire them and others would dare never hire such POS risks that could ruin their company? Could he post this to social media, advising others of the abusive individuals employed at the protection agency, thus many individuals outraged at such acts would pull their funding from this agency?

    Hell no. He has no voice and no choice in the matter, and he will be extorted to fund the department which violated his liberty no matter what. The officers will probably still be employed, and personally will not be held liable for their actions. The taxpayers will be fleeced would there be a lawsuit….and those douchebags shielded from any consequences.

    1. The taxpayers will be fleeced would there be a lawsuit….and those douchebags shielded from any consequences.

      In addition, he will be subject to continual harassment by the police until he moves out of their jurisdiction.

      Every time they see him they will accost him, daring him to repeat his refusal to obey. And each time it will get worse. Until he leaves town or they kill him.

      That just might happen anyway, thanks to this video.

  13. Failure to obey. That was his crime.

    While the police have no legal right to demand identification without probably cause to believe you’ve committed a crime or have warrants for your arrest, they’ll still arrest you for failure to obey if you don’t comply.

    If you resist then they will assault or kill you. They may rough you up anyway just for kicks.

    If you survive the encounter, then they will charge you with a bunch of bogus crimes, and the charges will eventually be dropped.

    And nothing else will happen.

    Land of the free (to ask permission and obey orders).

  14. I never liked the idea of having to carry ID everywhere. Even medieval lords never forced that on their serfs.

    I wonder what exactly is the point of asking for ID. Police on foot don’t carry a list of wanted fugitives with them. And in any case, IDs are easy enough to fake, which is why the police take mugshots.

    I’d be fine with getting rid of needing ID to vote if they got rid of ID, period.

    1. I wonder what exactly is the point of asking for ID.

      So they can use their radio to run you for warrants. But without probable cause to believe you’re committed a crime or have warrants for your arrest, demanding ID is not a lawful command.

      But they’ll arrest you anyway if you fail to obey. And if you resist you’re putting your life in their hands.

      And nothing else will happen.

      1. Eh, I don’t think stopping a person to ask a question is the same as seizing them.

        How do you figure they need problem cause just to stop you and ask a question?

        1. How do you figure they need problem cause just to stop you and ask a question?

          They don’t. Though you have every legal right to refuse to answer, and they have no legal right to demand identification unless they have probable cause.

          No that any of that matters. They’ll arrest you if you don’t obey.

          And nothing else will happen.

          Which, for all practical purposes, means you have no rights. None.

          1. The best you can do is hire a lawyer, but even then the only people who get punished are the taxpayers, not the cops who broke the law.

            1. If you weren’t hurt then you just spend a few thousand dollars to get the charges dropped.

          2. They ask for your ID and you can theoretically plead the 5th?

            This is why I say unwritten custom matters more than law. The custom here as that the police can stop you for any reason and demand ID. Fight the ocean and you will drown.

            1. They ask for your ID and you can theoretically plead the 5th?

              No. If they ask you questions, then yes you are under no legal obligation to answer them. But you don’t they’ll arrest you anyway.

              The only time that a demand for ID is a legal command is when you are pulled over, or when they have probable cause to believe you committed a crime or have warrants for your arrest. But you don’t they’ll arrest you anyway.

              And nothing else will happen.

            2. Unwritten custome is also that cops beat the shit out of dark-skinned people for no apparent reason. Maybe we should fight the ocean.

        2. It’s not a problem to ask a question. People in public can can ask anyone else in public anything they want. Cops can too. There’s nothing wrong with that.

          The problem is what happens when you decline to answer. If you don’t answer my question, I’ll probably just shrug and walk away. If you don’t answer a cop’s question, it’s likely to retroactively transmogrify into an order and result in the sort of temper-tantrum you see in this video.

        3. It’s the “stop you” part that is a seizure. If you’re not free to go, you’re seized.

    2. For the same reason the TSA checks IDs without having a list of terrorists in front of them. It’s about making people obey, and it’s about creating an atmosphere where it becomes dangerous to question the actions of our overlords.

      1. I think it has more to do with do-somethingism and security theater. But yeah, VE MUSS HAFF ZE ORDAH! is also part of it.

        1. Du meinst: “Ordnung muss sein.”

          1. Essen Zee bitte mien Grossen Schlong, du dump-kopf! Heute Deutschelant, morgen der gonz-weldt! Deutsche-lant Uber Alles!!! Ich bin ein bear-weiner! Mein bear-weiner ist grosser dant yer bear-weiner! Macht machts rechtich! Hancken Creutz told me so, so THERE! – From BEYOND where the Hocken-Creutzchens Howl!

            Drey drei mal um den Kirsch-schitpzel! Kindern, Kirshce, unt kuchen, know yer place!
            sitzen auf einem Kirchturm und dreimal drehen … Drehe dreimal um den Kirchturm

            1. Um, you’ll have to excuzen Zie me, Bitte, I got into the schnaptz too much. Plus, I hadn’t realized just how easy The Google makes it fer me to X-late stuff & stuff. http://translate.google.com/#en/de/
              What I had meant to sagen ist, “Mein B?r – Schlange ist grosser als Ihr B?ren – Schlange.”

      2. Theoretically, by checking to make sure your ID matches your boarding pass, which contains a name that was screened through their databases, the TSA is verifying that you were cleared through their databases. However, there are so many ways around this that it ends up being nothing but theater.

    3. The sumptuary laws made it clear enough who could be rousted and should be left alone.

    4. And in any case, IDs are easy enough to fake,

      this is why you should always carry 2 id’s. Aliases are necessary.

      The proper thing to do is, when asked “Can I see an ID?”, is to respond, “only if I can see yours.”

      1. That’s the proper thing to do if you want to end up like this guy. I feel for the poor bastard, but if asked, I’m showing my ID (and hoping if he catches a glimpse of my carry permit he won’t get angry).

  15. The cops didn’t get into any trouble because they were answering a complaint about someone loitering.

    I’ve actually been threatened with arrest for standing still on the sidewalk and gawking at cops as they beat the shit out of people and destroyed their property.

    The cop told me that sidewalks are for walking, and if you’re not walking then you’re breaking the law.

    I moved along. I have no doubt that had I pushed the issue, my blood would have been mingled with the blood of the kids whose faces the cops smashing against their white van until it was dripping red. Which is what I was gawking at.

    Up until that point I had this childish notion that police are there to help you. No. They are there to make you obey. Or else.

  16. Only three short days after the protests died down, Hillary has broken her silence on the events of Ferguson.

    ABC is now waiting for Gilbert Gottfried and Molly Ringwald to report their perspectives on the Brown shooting and provide welcome closure to a heartbroken, racially divided America.

    1. Pat Buchanan’s latest column rips Hillary. He asks, “When has Hillary Clinton ever been right on foreign policy?”

      1. When has Hilary Clinton ever been right on domestic policy?

        1. When has Pat Buchanan ever been right on anything?

          1. *When has Pat Buchanan ever been right on anything?*

            ‘Suicide of the west’ ring a bell?
            “Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War” ring a bell?

        2. What difference does it make?

  17. “So while the debate over whether voter ID laws are effective or whether they infringe on the right to vote (which ought to be universal given citizenship, which should be based on residency and necessary and proper paperwork)…”

    If there’s no big deal about filing paperwork, why does needing to show ID at the polls create an unconscionable burden? They are either both burdensome or both irrelevant.

    1. You have to pay for an ID. Requiring ID to vote is therefore a poll tax.

      1. ID cards are subsidized or free for low income people nearly everywhere, and stipulations to that effect have been part of every voter ID law passed.

        1. Exactly, PM. It’s just one of the bogus excuses people use to defend (intentionally or unintentionally) vote fraud.

        2. As long as the ID is provided for at state expense to anybody who wants it for voting, then there is no issue.

        3. Bullshit Mr. Ubiquitous…quit pulling shit out of your ass. Also that misses the point…dipshit, why should ANYONE have to pay to vote. I am so sick of you Fascist racist Republicans assholes…go to fucking Iran or someplace, you would love a theocracy.

          1. Hey, leftist scum, I have to pay for my mail-in ballot [49 cents] if I don’t choose to drive to one of the polling locations and drop it through a slot [more than 49 cents worth of gas], and I live in the leftist-scum dominated state of Washington.

          2. “Because Indiana’s cards are free, the inconvenience of going to the Bureau of Motor Vehicles, gathering required documents, and posing for a photograph does not qualify as a substantial burden…”

            Justice John Paul Stevens,
            Crawford v. Marion County Election Board

            If a photo ID were not available for free, a voter ID law would be unconstitutional under Crawford.

          3. Fascists are leftists you idiot. As are racists. You cunts can’t even get your slurs right.

      2. You have to pay for an ID. Requiring ID to vote is therefore a poll tax.

        Well forcing voters to burn calories walking their ass to the voting booth, could be argued to constitute a poll tax. Or maybe the gas required for rural voters to get to their polling stations. I guess they are unduly burdened as well. That one certainly seems like more of burden than requiring a virtually free ID before you’re allowed to vote away my liberty and property.

        1. Only if you’re a total fucking idiot…like you. You sure mutt have a weak argument if you have to come up with lame exaggerations like that.

          1. Explain how they are invalid. That tends to work better than name calling. But if that’s all you’re capable of then run with it I guess.

          2. Or a weak mutt.

          3. Kill yourself.

  18. My god. If something like this can happen in lefty, democratic, color-blind, home-of-Hubert H. Humphrey Minnesota, I just don’t know what’s happening. Next thing you know, you’ll be telling me the DNC is calling a GOPer a blame-America wacko. It’s a bizarro world.

  19. Its FAT PUNK cops like this I just LOVE to hear about in the news that get killed in the line of duty. Worthless P O S

    http://www.CryptAnon.tk

    1. Whoah, userve. Lighten up. It’s only Minnesota.

      1. I for one welcome our spambot overlords.

  20. Creating libertarians one incident at a time.

    1. Yeah, the country is flooded with black libertarians.

  21. Scruffy black men are never up to any good, bitches. Everyone knows that- even black pigs. Don’t be all black and Bob Marley lookin’ and sittin’ on benches around the St. Paul’s First National Bank Building, bitches. We, the noxious dullheads of the St. Paul PD, WILL save the Minnesota and beyond from your loitering black ass, muthafucka! Go Lord FOP! Giddy-up and GIT that goddamn whore civilian who ain’t lickin’ my St. Paul PD boots.

  22. He needs to lawyer up and sue the cops individually in civil court.

  23. Witness this interaction between an officer and a man who told them he was waiting to pick up his kids from the local charter school.

    Daycare ? charter school

  24. It would be nice if Reason took the time to even trrryyyyy to obtain both sides of the story. Security calls the PD because some guy is trespassing in an employee’s only area and refusing to leave. If the PD show up and the security guys would like to issue a trespass notice, then yes, Lollie is required to identify himself. Just because someone starts throwing out any random reason under the sun like “waiting for kids, waiting for wife, meeting someone, waiting for a friend…” doesn’t suddenly exclude them from the legal process. For all the PD knows the guy was there stalking his ex-girlfriend and had already been issued a trespass notice before. Should the PD just let suspects from every crime under the sun go when they say “oh just waiting for my friend”? I work for a PD in a large city and usually when security calls us about a guy who wont leave and is acting weird, then he says “oh I’m waiting for so and so but F y’all anyway” and gets belligerent, there’s about a 99% chance that he’s not waiting for anyone.

    1. There is no state stop-and-identify law in MN (I would’ve identified myself, though).

      The area where Lollie was waiting wasn’t marked or regarded as private, according to reporters and the private security people who work there.

    2. “Security calls the PD because some guy is trespassing in an employee’s only area and refusing to leave.”

      Where did you get that from? And if that is the case why were the charges dropped? Also are you saying that you presume every single person you encounter is a felon, or just on the brink of committing a violent crime, with absolutely no evidence? Shouldn’t we assume every cop is also a criminal then? You seem to have no appreciation at all for the rule of law and believe that Law Enforcement do not have an obligation to obey the law. If you are indeed in Law enforcement, you should leave, for the good of everyone.

      1. Shouldn’t we assume every cop is also a criminal then? – poguemahony

        Yeah, and all the soldiers, saints.

        Kevin R

        1. Oh, for an edit function!

          “and all the sinners, saints.”

          Kevin R

    3. *It would be nice if Reason took the time to even trrryyyyy to obtain both sides of the story. *

      Heaven forfend that a web site called “Reason” should actually use any. It would interfere with the non-stop cop-hating around here.

      You can see why libertarians are never elected to high office, as they are so obsessed with trivial asinine minutiae like this.

      Either show an ID or get the f*ck out of the school/daycare/church/whatever. It’s pretty simple. If more people had the crap kicked out of them for acting like entitled jerks, this country would be a much better place to live.

      1. Maybe I need to beat your ass. You would learn a great deal from it.

  25. Nevertheless, the guards and their private property have a right to ask the PD to enforce trespassing laws. If Mr Lollie wants to be uncooperative and cause a scene rather than saying “yeah, I’m waiting on my kids. My name is blah blah and ok I’ll stay off their property. Sure, I’ll wait down here for my kids. Hope y’all have a good day.” , then that’s no one’s problem other than his own. Trespassing in a business is the same thing as someone sitting on your front porch saying “No I’m not going to leave I have a right to sit in your property and wait for blah blah.” Well, no you don’t have that right. I would expect libertarians to be a bit more understanding of that.

    1. If he was trespassing why were all the charges dropped?

    2. “rather than saying “yeah, I’m waiting on my kids. ”

      That’s what he did say. Two or three times. Almost verbatim.

      Did you even watch the video?

      And, on top of all that, he wasn’t trespassing.

    3. Christ, what an asshole. Fuck off, slaver.

    4. I’m sure a pussy like you would just roll over when they come knocking on your door.

      Cowards are sooooo pathetic.

  26. Papers Please? St. Paul Cop Harassed Black Man Waiting For His Kids for ID, Caught on Tape

    Here is a story about ugliness of arbitrary power and you just decide to poison the well and promote some race baiting distraction narrative. You tell the reader to attack this straw man while the real culprit goes on putting boots on necks of whichever damn color they choose.

    If you think your headline adds anything valuable, it only adds what NBC and ABC were able to add to the Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown narratives; misleading bullshit designed to attract the eyes of people who don’t know any better about what actually is the evil plaguing society. Bullshit that actually sets us all back, unless you think the media created narrative of murderous racism post-2010 is really helping. Fucking principles, Ed.

    1. I do no such thing. Read the whole article. This is an over sensitivity to mention of race that’s kind of a mirror of the other side’s.

      1. I did read the article. The headline is what I’m griping about. It grabbed some attention I’m sure but you didn’t exactly use the article to dispel the myth contained in the headline. I don’t disagree with hardly anything in the article as a matter of fact. At one point you wrote;

        Minnesota City Pages identified the man,

        here^ you knew quite well how to drop the misleading factoids and identify him properly as ‘the man’. Like I said, drawing undue attention to a guy’s blackness distorts the actual problem and instead creates an entirely new problem by reinforcing false racial narratives that only embolden the enemies of freedom.

        1. It’s not a misleading factoid, it’s an adjective that fit here, especially to make the voter ID intro work better.

          1. I get it, you’re the professional and I’m not bitching about your writing style or structure. (I’m resisting the urge to argue about the “burden” of ID for voting)

            But what about when a cop harasses a guy who’s ethnicity was not immediately clear? “Cop Harasses Ethnically Ambiguous Man” or maybe if it were a fat person, that would be worth mentioning too, even if there were no evidence that obesity had anything to do with it.

            The presence of that little adjective has very real implications or you wouldn’t have used it. You may have heard that old writers’ quip that “Anything that is not necessary to the story, is harmful to the story“. If your story really is about abuse of power and nothing else, then your headline did not succeed in this regard. It’s harmful to the cause of raising awareness to the issues that the article is purportedly about.

            I’m not trying to be a dick, I genuinely appreciate what you do and believe you do a great deal of good. I can’t think of another time I’ve had a bone to pick with your articles. But this racial context stuff is befitting of publications like Salon. I don’t exactly complain in their commentariat because I expect it from their like.

        2. entirely new problem by reinforcing false racial narratives that only embolden the enemies of freedom.”

          It isn’t a false narrative, it is a fact that people of color experience harassment more often from the police…just ask Rand Paul.

          1. It isn’t a false narrative, it is a fact that people of color experience harassment more often from the police…just ask Rand Paul.

            Yes it is. The headline isn’t talking about police interactions in aggregate or systemically, it’s talking about a particular case and in this particular case there is no evident reason to frame it as an issue of race relations. That’s the false narrative.

          2. *It isn’t a false narrative, it is a fact that people of color experience harassment more often from the police*

            For the same reason 20-something year old guys from Saudi Arabia with no luggage should be harrassed by TSA more than 90 year-old lutheran women.

            Get a grip.

            1. Nobody should be harassed by the TSA. There shouldn’t be a TSA. And how would you suggest the State be given authority to verify that one is Lutheran?

  27. Complete bullshit.

    Frankly I wish this were racism but i think it’s worse. His crime was not showing proper deference to his lords and masters. I seriously doubt it would have mattered what color his skin was.

    1. I’m white and I have no doubt they would have been on me just as fast.

  28. I usually don’t buy into the ‘DWB’, ‘gentle giant’ scenarios, but in this case I have to think if it were me (white) sitting there nobody would have asked me anything.

    On the other hand, I have been asked for ID in situations where I felt like saying, ‘I have no reason to give you my ID so please don’t ask for it’, but decided the hour or two hassle I would endure isn’t worth it.

    1. no way…if you were a white guy sitting there in a suit they would have beat you so bad…

    2. For the first time I can kind of see what they mean about “white privilege.” I’ve been rolling my eyes whenever someone talked about it before. But this guy was calmly walking and talking and they still beat him down anyway.

      I’m nearly 60 and can count the number of times I have had interactions with the police on one hand. OK, maybe one and a half. Black friends tell me a different story. People call the police on them and the police treat them much differently because there is an assumption that they are up to no good. While blacks may commit a disproportionate share of crime it would be infuriating to have to prove over and over that I’m not “one of them.”

      1. *While blacks may commit a disproportionate share of crime it would be infuriating to have to prove over and over that I’m not “one of them.”*

        Maybe there should be some sort of political movement established to stop them committing a “disproportionate share of crime”, instead of blaming everyone else.

        1. The only “evidence” that black people commit a disproportionate share of crime are the self-reported arrest and conviction rates of black men by the racist cops themselves. Its already been proven that cops are more likely to arrest black men even when theyre not doing anything wrong. Its already been proven that juries are 8x more likely to convict a black man than a white man even when theyve committed the same crime with the same amount of evidence. So why would you even trust those numbers? The government lies and oppresses, then it releases false statistics to justify its lies and oppression.

          The simple fact is, blacks make a convenient scapegoat for the NWO police state to test its tactics out on, before they expand them to the population at large. Look at Ferguson. Theyre obviously running Martial Law drills. The War on Drugs? Started out exclusively in black communities. Unlawful search and seizure? Started out exclusively in black communities. When Stop & Frisk starts showing up in OUR white neighborhoods, ill be right here saying “I told you so”.

          1. I’m not sure about the “proof” you’re citing here. What is “the same amount of evidence?” It seems as if that’s a little hard to state so matter-of-factly, since no two witnesses are the same. Nor are juries. Nor are all actions that fall under the same statutory violations. And it’s not true in my experience working in the criminal (in)justice system. I find that the majority of people who find themselves there, regardless of race, get treated pretty badly and have a very hard time getting themselves out, even when innocent.

            That said, black people, on a percentage basis, probably have a much greater exposure to cops, and with that, all the ugly actions of police. And that’s why so much of the current outcry is coming from, primarily, black voices. But everyone should listen, because this shit has got to stop.

            1. Oh, wait. I just realized Satyrical posted about some kind of International Zionist cabal below. Sorry I bothered.

      2. DFG, I think you are so wrong in your perception of this.

  29. Here’s the deal: When assholes and dicks collide, the one with the badge and the gun will win every time, no matter what your race, creed or sexual orientation is. The key is recognizing how, where, when, and with whom to pick your battles. If this guy would have said “I’m so-and-so, here’s my ID, I’m waiting for my kids, what’s the nature of this contact, and you’re being recorded for my safety”, he most likely would have gotten a “The owner of this property would like you to move along. Have a nice day” type response. Being polite and professional goes both ways. Being confrontational with a dick who has a badge and a gun is a good way to end up doing the floppy-chicken in front of your kids. Is it right? Nope, it’s not illegal to be an asshole or confrontational. Is it reality? Yep, for now it is, and until we change it, the best way to deal with a police encounter is to not be an asshole, because some assholes need fuckin, and dicks like to fuck assholes….

    1. some assholes need fuckin, and dicks like to fuck assholes….

      Yeah but Mouse…doesn’t it depend on the dick and the asshole?

    2. Fuck you

      1. Such witty repartee. I hope all libertarians have your sparkling debate skills.

    3. “…and you’re being recorded for my safety…”

      Which is the point where the beatdown normally occurs.

    4. Well stated.

    5. Being polite to psychopathic feral pigs doesn’t do you one bit of good.

      They want to maim hurt and kill, its what feral pigs do.

  30. Black men get criticized for not responsibly raising their kids. Then they get arrested for trying to responsibly raise their kids.

    The police thugs in this country under direct orders from the international Zionists to do everything they can to oppress, harass, and murder any black man in this country that tried to be better than a slave. Zionists started the African slave trade, and it never ended.

    1. Wow. “International Zionist” huh? You’re the part of the gene pool that needs some Clorox splashed on it.

    2. I thought it was House Republicans’ fault? Or BOOOOOSH? But it turns out that it’s the International Zionist Illuminati Bilderburg Cabal! Drat! They would’ve gotten away with it, if not for that pesky Satyrical-doo!

    3. You start to make a good point and then ruin it with that zionist bullshit. And for the record, AFRICANS started the African slave trade.

      Idiot.

  31. This sounds like liberal media. I have been in the very same circumstance many times with the police asking for my ID and I didn’t say You are just asking me because I’m a white man or another smart alec remark. No matter what are our rights, simply showing ID will allow the police to go on their way but lecturing the cops like the man in the video is asking for harassment. The rights we have on paper don’t always work in real life and simply saying yes mam or yes sir will demonstrate ones good intentions. There was no racism involved, the police do that to everyone and there are many criminals out there. Both sides need flexibility and the man was arrogant and provocative.

    1. How do you know there was or wasn’t racism involved? No one does except the cops involved.

      “…simply saying yes mam or yes sir will demonstrate ones good intentions.”

      Yes. After all, we mere civilians should always be ready to prostrate ourselves and demonstrate the purity our our intention to our overlords. And whatever you do, don’t meet their gaze, or it may be construed as a threat.

      Attitudes like yours are part of the reason there’s a problem.

    2. Yes, we have lots of rights in this country, as long as you don’t actually try to exercise them. I personally don’t care if this was motivated by racism or not. What matters here is that, yes, the guy had the right not to be harassed by the police, but by having the nerve to actually try to exercise that right, he was abused and arrested. Stop blaming the victim, and start blaming the thugs.

    3. Lemming minded losers such as yourself should move to saudi arabia….. they just love sheep over there.

  32. Part of the problem is that people think we have rights that we really don’t have and that this is “our” country. The only rights we have are what the police and politicians allow and if anyone really believes this is “our” country just look at all the so called illegals and what they are encouraged to do.

    1. Yeah. Somehow connect the out of control cops to illegals. Thank you, Mr. Talk Radio.

  33. This is just incredibly painful to listen to.

  34. This seems to be the overall attitude of police. “If you don’t do what i say immediately, you will be arrested on trumped up charges. I, as a street patrolman, don’t care what happens after i arrest you. I’m pretty much immune to punishment for doing this.”

  35. Absolutely disgusting police conduct. These police officers need to be publically identified and held personally responsible for their criminal actions. How did we get to this point where the police feel they are above the law and can arbitrarily use violence against peaceful citizens. Its no wonder we are seeing more violence towards police, seems like people figure may as well get him before he gets me.

    1. They need to be tarred, feathered then set on fire…. then the left over crap feed to the sharks.

  36. What else could be expected from a psychopathic traitorous feral pig?

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