Malaysian Plane Crashed in Ukraine—Who's to Blame?


A Malaysian Airlines passenger plane en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur appears to have crashed in Eastern Ukraine. Though the airline has only confirmed it has lost contact with flight MH17, Reuters has tweeted that a correspondent has seen the wreckage on the ground and bodies.

Here's the Associated Press story on it right now. It will obviously be updated as reports roll in, and we'll keep an eye out for news at Reason 24/7. A Ukraine adviser claimed on Facebook that the plane was shot down. Ukraine has stated that they are not responsible.


NEXT: Obama Hits Russia With Big Sanctions, Putin Says Relations Near 'Dead End'

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  1. Malaysian Airlines is not racking up a good track record this year.

    1. Both 777 as well, which had a nearly perfect safety record before this year. Weird.

      1. I’m not sure you can count getting hit by a missile against either the airline or the airplane manufacturer.

        1. I’m not sure you can count getting hit by a missile against either the airline

          Routing a commercial aircraft over an active war zone is probably not an acceptable practice.

          Someone in another thread said the airspace was closed to commercial operations. If so, Malaysian Airlines really fucked up big time.

          1. I think it safe to say I shan’t board a Malaysian Airlines plane now or in the future.

            1. I hear they have some really good deals right now. Do you guys insure them, BTW?

              1. OOOH!

                Shit yeah.

                *Fires up*

                1. Ugh, Malaysia Air has no fare sales listed. THIS IS BULLSHIT.

              2. I think we have exposure with them at more than one layer…. argh.

                1. Thats $265 Million for the hull, and god knows how much more for victim compensation.

          2. According to PPRUN, the air space wasn’t closed.

            The UK and the US have put out a notice advising commercial traffic to stay away, but othe countries haven’t

            Apparently a significant amount of air traffic between Europe and the Far East has been flying over the Ukraine.

            One of the guys on the forum even said that he flew over the area as a first officer on a 777 about 8 hours ago.

            It’s kind of disconcerting. A Ukrainian military transport was shot down yesterday at about 20,000 feet (if I did the conversion right).

            According to the forum, pretty much all commercial traffic is now diverting around the area.

            1. Do you really need an official advisory to know NOT TO FLY THROUGH A FUCKING WAR ZONE?!

              1. Until the rebels got the vehicle mounted SAMs, it *was* safe, provided you stayed above 20,000 feet and kept your speed up.

                The more I read about the BUK system, the more I say WTF?

                1. Until the rebels got the vehicle mounted SAMs,

                  But its the Russians who shot down a Ukrainian plane at 20,000 feet. According to early reports that I assume are not 100% reliable.

                  I see no reason to assume that its the Ukrainians who shot down the airliner.

              2. Well obviously, some people do!

                1. So it is my understanding it takes seriously military hardware and training to hit a 777 doing 600knots at 35,000. Those numbers are WAY to big for a shoulder mount. A REAL rocket is needed plus it would need to target the plane. That means someone was seeing it on radar…with its transponder screaming MHA777 or whatever…something is fishy.

          3. The sorts of people who have the technology to hit an airliner (that isn’t on take-off or landing) are the sorts of people who have the technology to discriminate between an airliner and an actual threat.

            As to who’s fault it is – well that will be the fault of the usual suspect.

            Mr. “Who’s got the deepest pockets”.

            Its amazing all the shit he’s responsible for.

            1. I assume it will be the Koch Brothers.

            2. i must refresh since you post is more succinct, clear, and prompt.

            3. The sorts of people who have the technology to hit an airliner (that isn’t on take-off or landing) are the sorts of people who have the technology to discriminate between an airliner and an actual threat.

              Tell that to those who died aboard Iran Air Flight 655 in 1988.

            4. Generally, yes.

              But the Russian state media reported back on June 29th that the separatists had seized a Buk system. Which means there was a system able to shoot down this plane in the hands of stateless amateurs – at least, if you believe the Russian state media.

      2. To be fair, the anti-SAM system doesn’t come standard on the 777

        1. Bet that option gets a lot more looks for the next orders.

      3. If it was a SAM, it’s pretty certain that Boeing didn’t design for that eventuality.

        1. And the victim’s families will sue them for not planning for that eventuality.

        2. When will Congress acknowledge the scourge of SAM fatalities in our airways, and mandate countermeasures on all passenger planes?

          1. All planes must be Air Force One!!!

          2. Does any insurgency really more than 7 SAMs?

      4. I don’t think the 777 was outfitted with anti-SA batteries.

      5. The 777 has still has a perfect safety record, as long as you don’t have an Asian pilot.

          1. He speak tluth!

        1. Wasn’t that Asiana flight a trip 7?

          1. Oceanic Flt 815…..

          2. Yep. So egregious. The equivalent of me driving several hours, only to crash through my garage wall because I’m too tired to drive the extra 30 feet to my garbage door.

            I take my 3 year old to LAX to watch the planes land, and we stand right under the glide slope. Except when Asiana planes are coming.

            1. HA! You go to In n Out for plane spotting? I would like to go there sometime.

              And this walking path at Manchester

              1. It’s a great spot. Early in the morning, A380s from Quantas, Emirates, and Korean Air all land within a few minutes of each other.

                There’s another secret spot on the south side of the airport, but it’s more scenic and less exciting.

                Added bonus: In N Out has meat on the grill at 9:20 and secretly opens at 9:30. I’ve never had a bad day start with a Double Double.

                I take it you are familiar with Princess Juliana Airport?

                1. I take it you are familiar with Princess Juliana Airport?

                  Of course! 🙂

                  I’m not a beachy type person, though, so I doubt a vacay to St. Maarten is in the cards.

                  Lukla, however…..

    2. At least we know where this one is.

      …too soon?

      1. It’s already on twitter.

        1. Twitter: shelving decorum and beating me to the punchline since whenever Twitter came about.

    3. To lose one Boeing 777 may be regarded as a misfortune. To lose two looks like carelessness.

    4. If Russia is responsible for this, is this an act of war for either Ukraine or the US?

      There were 5 American passengers.

  2. AP has a Russian SAM shooting it down.

    1. Isn’t eastern Ukraine a war zone? Why would anyone fly a passenger plane through a war zone?

      1. [insert Asian driving joke here]

      2. That’s what an “aviation expert” was saying on Sky News, more or less why the hell the plane was flying over potentially dangerous airspace.

      3. Maybe because they foolishly assumed that the Ukrainians and rebels would stick to fighting each other and not try shooting down planes that were 30,000 feet in the air and not obviously engaged in military activities. What was the alternative? Engage in a costly long-distance re-route because of the *possibility* that one one the combatants would go all Fearless Fosdick and start acting like the Fairfax County SWAT team executing an arrest warrant on Salvatore Culosi?

  3. Fox News said this is the third plane to be shot down since Monday. A cargo plane and fighter jet were the other two.

  4. we’ll keep an eye out for news at Reason 24/7.

    Reason has its own news feed? Who knew?

    1. But what do millennials think about it?

        1. Millenials need regular pollings.


      1. “But what do millennials think about it?”

        Aw, Mom, don’t bother me and make a sandwich!

  5. We suspect Russian involvement!

    /Ghosts of Passengers of KAL Flights 007 and 902

  6. If Russia closes it airspace, how many commercial airliners still want to go over the Ukraine?

    1. -the.

  7. “A Ukraine adviser claimed on Facebook that the plane was shot down.”

    I’m just happy that international diplomacy is being hashed out on Facebook. I wonder how many ‘likes’ that got.

    1. #whitehouse #diplomacy

      1. #reset #smart

  8. Given it’s a missile attack, seems kind of a waste of ammo.

  9. I hope it wasn’t launched using Hillary Clinton’s “reset button”.

    1. I really don’t want to think about Hillary Clinton’s “reset button”.

  10. From the twitters:
    @McFaul Russian GRU officer Strelkov admitting that he ordered the missile strike against the Malaysian jet.

    1. Tom Cruise: DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED??!!

      Officer Strelkov: YOU’RE GODDAMNED RIGHT I DID!!

      1. Nicely played.

        *British Open clap*

    2. Strelnikov is back!

    3. Maybe I haven’t been keeping up, but I thought the Russian story was that these were Ukrainian separatists and not Russian soldiers. Doesn’t admitting that a GRU officer ordered the shoot put the lie to that story?

  11. Looks like President Not My Fault might want to pick up the red courtesy phone and dial up some 1980’s foreign policy.

    1. #IStandWithMalaysianAirlines

      1. With accompanying sad face, of course.

        1. Crying Gabby Giffords (facing the wrong direction) in front of a crying Statue of Liberty, surrounded by crying First Responders? (PBUT) with a setting, crying sun in the background. And some kittehs and puppehs, all crying.

          1. And the Statue of Liberty with Obama’s face on it.

      2. #DontShootOurPlanes 🙁

    2. He should have drawn a red line against shooting down passenger planes.

    3. ROFLMAO. Good luck with THAT one.

      Obama: “This is my last election. After my election, I have more flexibility.”
      Medvedev: “I understand. I will transmit this information to Vladimir.”

      March 26, 2016

      1. I think that statement was actually from the past, not the future.

    4. What did we do when KAL007 was shot down?

      I forgot.

      1. Wow, the JournoList got its talking points distributed FAST on this one. Very well done Davey boy!


          1. Hello there Dave Weigel of 2124 12th St NW Washington, DC 20009, phone number 202-261-2848.

          2. Are you quitting on me? Well, are you? Then quit, you slimy fucking walrus-looking piece of shit! Get the fuck off of my obstacle! Get the fuck down off of my obstacle! NOW! MOVE IT! Or I’m going to rip your balls off, so you cannot contaminate the rest of the world! I will motivate you, IF IT SHORT-DICKS EVERY CANNIBAL ON THE CONGO!

            1. Is there anything that quotes from FMJ can not make more funny?

          3. Palin’s Buttplug|7.17.14 @ 12:59PM|#

            Go fuck your daddy, turd.

      2. The Reagan Administration decided to allow worldwide access to the United States military’s GNSS system, which was classified at the time. Today this system is widely known as GPS.

        The Reagan administration also pushed NATO to deploy Pershing II and cruise missiles to West Germany.

        There were other reactions as well.

        Do you want me to go on and embarrass you some more?

        1. I thought NATO was only for pussies like Obama.

          1. Obama doesn’t even know what NATO stands for.

            Face it Shriek, your hero is WAY over his head and everyone on the goddam planet knows it.

            Let’s just hope some cooler heads prevail.

            1. Let me know when he starts a $1 trillion ground war against the wrong country.

              1. The big news wouldn’t be Obama starting a war.

                The big news would be Obama going to Congress first.

                Of course, he’d probably Repub support, just like Bush got Dem support for Iraq.


              2. Palin’s Buttplug|7.17.14 @ 1:12PM|#
                “Let me know when he starts a $1 trillion ground war against the wrong country.”

                STFU, turd.

              3. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!!11!!!!!!

              4. You mean like the GOP? The OTHER statist warmongering party that no one on this list supports?

                This is almost as bad as when Nixon started that war in Vietnam. Oh, wait…

          2. Sure you wanna quit playing, SHREEK? The game’s always between you and getting called a cunt. That dropped eye of yours looks like the hood on a cunt to me, shreek. When you talk, your mouth looks like a cunt moving.

            1. I ain’t gonna get in no gun fight with you, Hickok.

          3. Palin’s Buttplug|7.17.14 @ 1:01PM|#
            “I thought NATO was only for pussies like Obama.”

            Go lick Obo’s ass, turd.

      3. I bet you’re the kind of guy who would fuck a person in the ass and not even have the goddamn common courtesy to give him a reach-around. I’ll be watching you!

      4. Palin’s Buttplug|7.17.14 @ 12:54PM|#
        “What did we”…

        8%, turd.
        And STFU, turd.

  12. I am supposed to fly west out of Istanbul to a meeting in Siberia in early September. The great circle route takes us just south and east of Crimea and over the sea of Azov. You know, where this shit happened today.

    I think I’m gonna reschedule that trip now.

    1. +1 risk management technique: avoidance

    2. Don’t you mean east out of IST?

  13. Man, I knew I shouldn’t have gone duck hunting in Ukraine this morning…

    *sneaks away from crash site*

    1. + 1 Dick Cheney. You shot the plane IN THE FACE!

      1. They’d better apologize to me, too, for imitating a duck and causing me to waste ammo.

      2. As long as the plane apologizes for getting in the way on national television we’ll be good.

    2. Especially since it’s WABBIT SEASON!!

  14. If you want informed speculation by people in the aviation industry that isn’t filtered into journaderp.

    Here is a good point to start reading:…..der-5.html

    1. It was shot down at altitude. That means it was at thirty five or forty thousand feet moving over five hundred miles per hour. No shoulder fired missile is shooting down a 777 at altitude. This had to be either the Ukrainian or Russian military shooting it down by mistake.

      My question is why the fuck is an airliner flying over Ukraine? Cram a crowbar in your wallet and buy some extra fuel to fly over the Black Sea. Malaysian Airlines is quite a piece of work. First they fail to notice one of their pilots has become a bat shit insane Muslim and now they decide that it is a good idea to fly over a contested and unstable border of two countries with large air defense forces. Who the fuck is running that company? Obama?

      1. The rebels have BUK vehicle mounted SAMS.

        Basic missile system specifications[edit]
        Target acquisition range (by TAR 9S18M1, 9S18M1-1)
        range ? 140?,
        altitude ? 60 m ? 25 km,
        Firing groups in one division ? up to 6 (with one command post)
        Firing groups operating in a sector
        90? in azimuth, 0?7? and 7?14? in elevation,
        45? in azimuth, 14?52? in elevation,
        Radar mast lifting height (for TAR 9S36) ? 21 m,
        Reloading of 4 missiles by TEL from itself ? around 15 min,
        Combat readiness time ? no more than 5 min,
        Kill probability (by one missile) ? 0.9?0.95,
        Target engagement zone
        altitude ? 15 m ? 25 km
        range ? 3?42 km
        altitude ? 2.0?16 km
        range ? 3?20 km
        sea targets ? up to 25 km
        land targets ? up to 15 km.

        1. And the rebels are pretty much an arm of the Russian Military. You knew it was some kind of air defense artillery. The plane is seven or eight miles above you traveling nine miles a minute. Talk about Kentucky windage. Oh, you have to have a warhead big enough to take down a plane that has a take off weight of what? Three hundred thousand pounds or so? That is a big warhead.

          That said the rebels would be a good guess since they likely don’t have a lot of of communication with civil aviation authorities.

          1. You really don’t need much of a warhead to ruin a civilian jetliner with no idea what’s about to happen.

        2. “NATO reporting name Grizzly


          1. The Russians have some really crazy missiles to deal with their lack of air superiority.

            This is the one that made me shit my pants as a navy guy:

            I give you The P-700 Granit aka the SS-N-19 Shipwreck.

            Built by Chelomei/NPO Mashinostroenia, the bulging 10m missile has swept-back wings and tail, weighs around 7,000 kilograms and can be fitted with either a 750 kg HE warhead, a FAE warhead, or a 500 kt nuclear warhead. … Maximum speed is believed to be between Mach 1.6 and more than Mach 2.5.[1] Range is estimated at 500 to 550?625 km.[2] The guidance system is mixed-mode, with inertial, active terminal guidance with radar and also anti-radar homing. Mid-course correction is probable.
            The missile, when fired in a swarm (group of 4?8) has a unique guidance mode. One of the weapons climbs to a higher altitude and designates targets while the others attack. The missile responsible for target designation climbs in short pop-ups, so as to be harder to intercept. The missiles are linked by data connections, forming a network. Missiles are able to differentiate targets, detect groups and prioritize targets automatically using information gathered during flight and types of ships and battle formations pre-programmed in an onboard computer.

            Shipwreck is a great name for that monster.

            1. What should have made you shit your pants was what a single fifth rate power with a single obsolete fighter and one air launched cruise missile did to the HMS Sheffield. That was some amazing scary shit there.

              Then of course there is what one torpedo did to the Argentine ship the Belgrano or whatever it was. The general lesson is, “don’t join the fucking navy”.

              1. The Argentines might have had obsolete fighters, but the naval squadron that launched the exocets were according to my information some top flight, shit-hot pilots.

                As the Red Baron remarked, “It’s not the crate; it’s the man” that is the secret to success.

                1. Yeah Tarran, but even if they hadn’t been top rate, all they needed was one lucky shot.

                2. Tarran,

                  I have always read that had the Argentines not has the biggest dud ratio of any air force in history, the British fleet would have gone to the bottom. The British Navy got very lucky. The Army in contrast, once they got on shore were pretty amazing. They conducted a landing and overland march and land battle effectively entirely on foot. They had virtually no mechanized forces.

            2. That sounds almost too advanced for something that was designed before I was born.

          2. needs an extra r.

            1. Seems like a good time to take off to Alaska and blend in among my kind.

              1. You might not want to stay too long.

                Hunt Details
                Hunt Number: RB601
                Regulatory Year: 2014
                Hunt Type: Registration
                Species: Brown Bear
                Legal Animal: One brown bear,except two (2) brown bears may be taken in Unit 19A. however cubs or females accompanied by cubs may not be taken at any time.
                GMU, Area
                19A, 19B, 21D, 24

                1) WHEN: Aug. 10 – June 30.

              2. Seems like a good time to take off to Alaska and blend in among my kind.

                You know, with the handle I was surprised you weren’t a quintessential Silverlake bear.

                1. Yeah, the handle reveals something… but not what people assume. I consider it a success.

                  1. Furry?

                    1. Third strike and you’re out.
                      No, there’s no deep meaning, just bears are cool animals and I had to come up with something and misspell it cause the properly spelled handle was already taken elsewhere.

                    2. Now Jesse is disappointed.

                    3. Fair enough, although I think that was only strike two.

                      I didn’t want to pull over any other handles I’d used and ended up laming out with what I have now.

                      Are you going to get a chance to go to the Kodiak Archipelago?

                    4. We thought about it but we’re flying to Brooks Falls instead. It’s more logistically difficult to visit the Kodiak island.

                    5. Brooks Falls has a couple of live bear cams (never expected to type that string of words in a G-rated sense).

                      The parks service site clips between a few of them but they’ve got a closeup on a bear fishing currently.

      2. First they fail to notice one of their pilots has become a bat shit insane Muslim

        Wait, which one? Did I miss that part of the story?

        1. The pilot of the missing plane to Japan was, yes.

    2. It’s all about keeping the accountants happy by taking the shortest possible route until it all goes wrong, like today. I doubt that you will be able to get an MH accountant to answer the phone right now. I hope they sleep well tonight.

      We can guess who pulled the trigger on that SAM: the goddamn accountants, that’s who.

      1. Mistakes happen. I seriously doubt they intentionally shot down the plane. It was a massive fuck up on their part. But there is a war going on. Massive fuck ups tend to happen a lot more often in places where there is a war than in places where there are not. That is why it is a good idea to avoid war zones when you can.

        Any airline that flies over Ukraine right now, other than ones that are taking off from there or Russia and thus are in direct communication with one or both sides is criminally negligent as far as I am concerned.

        1. Until today, I had no idea that the rebels had vehicle mounted SAMs.

          MANPADS can’t bring down a civilian airliner at altitude.

          The rebels got shiny new toys over the last week.

          They shot down two Ukranian military aircraft (a transport at high altitude and a fighter jet).

          My guess is that very few people outside the conflict zone knew things had changed…

          The rebels clearly have a weapon system that isn’t paired with the proper C^3 I to use it properly.

          1. “They shot down two Ukranian military aircraft (a transport at high altitude and a fighter jet).”

            According to AP, those were AAM shots from fighters.

          2. But even if the rebels didn’t, the Russians and the Ukrainians do. Mistakes happen in tense situations. The US cruiser shot down that Iranian airliner in the Persian Gulf that time. You just don’t want to be around when two countries are that close to the bring.

            1. Because of a faulty IFF setting.

              1. It wasn’t a faulty IFF setting.

                The Aegis operators fucked up. They tried to cover their buts by claiming the Iranian A/C wasn’t squawking Mode III (civilian) but Mode II.

                It was an utter, disgraceful lie. From the Fogerty Report

                Iran Air Flight 655 took off on runway 21 (heading 210 degrees true), was directed by the Bandar Abbas Tower to squawk IFF mode III code 6760, and began a normal climb out to assigned altitude of 14,000 feet for the flight, which lasted a total of 7 minutes before the plane was hit by the missiles from USS Vincennes. The pilot remained within the Amber 59 air corridor (20 miles wide, 10 miles each side of centerline), made a routine position report to Bandar Abbas departure control at approximately 0654Z, and was ascending through 12,000 feet at a speed of approximately 380 kts at the time of making his report….

                The data from USS Vincennes’s tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence information, corroborate the fact that TN 4131 was on a normal commercial air flight plan profile, in the assigned airway, squawking Mode III 6760, on a continuous ascent in altitude from take-off at Bandar Abbas to shoot down.

                1. There was no excuse for that. If nothing else the radar signature and speed should have told them it wasn’t an Iranian fighter. That and the dip shit submarine commander who decided to show off for the VIPS and do an emergency surfacing into a Japanese fishing boat are about lowest points for the Navy in my lifetime. It makes me really wonder how they are managing to put such fuck ups into such important positions. Don’t you guys ever talk to the Army? You promote your ass kissing fuckups and send them to the Pentagon. You don’t put in charge of anything where they could do any damage.

                  1. You promote your ass kissing fuckups and send them to the Pentagon. You don’t put in charge of anything where they could do any damage.

                    I had never thought about it before, but the Peter Principle becomes really dangerous when weapons are involved, doesn’t it?

                    1. Yes Warty, yes it does. Forget about a war, just doing training where you have people running around with weapons is pretty dangerous. The military has generally done a good job of keeping the real basket cases out of command slots. They still promote them. But they generally don’t let them play with the toys, the Navy apparently excluded.

        2. Anytime Drudge and HuffPo run the exact same headline, skepticism is warranted.

          1. Well-Manicured Man: “Trust no one, Mr. Mulder.”

        3. FWIW, Lufthansa and KLM routinely flew directly over Baghdad in the 2000s.

          They bumped their cruise altitude to 50k, but they still did it.

    3. From what I gather from that link, due to the annexation, there were 2 conflicting air traffic control services in the area. That alone should be enough for airlines to route their flights elsewhere.

  15. Oh, BTW:

    Who’s to Blame?


    1. Koch Brothers, amirite??

      1. How long before How the Kochs are responsible for the latest Malaysian Airlines tragedy. is up on Salon? The end of the day?

        1. “How long before How the Kochs are responsible for the latest Malaysian Airlines tragedy. is up on Salon?”

          Well, the daddy made all his money off the poor starving Soviet peasants, and now Putin!
          Do I have to connect all the dots for you?!

        2. Koch Bros. hoarding of international oil rights and supply chain control forces MAS to take shortest route over war zone. Alternatively, somethingsomething Koch Bros., oil in black sea, Cheney, Citizen’s United, blahbalh its the Koch Bros. fault.


    2. Predicting a editorial in the next few days: Bush’s inability to solidify relations with the disintegrating Ukraine during his tenure precipitated this tragedy. The former president’s obsession with Iraq and the middle east set back the reintegration of Baltic countries with the European Union by years, perhaps decades.

      Or somesuch.

  16. What did “we” do about KAL 7? Who cares? Typical shrieking about shit no one else is even talking about. What a maroon.



      1. I bet you’re the kind of guy who would fuck a person in the ass and not even have the goddamn common courtesy to give him a reach-around. I’ll be watching you!

      2. Yes, in the case of someone shooting down an airliner, we really do.

        Obama already threw a call to Vlad. Vlad is apologizing. He knows what’s up.

      3. Well, when a civilian airliner gets shot down and hundreds of people killed, don’t you think someone should be held responsible?

        1. He’ll care after Jan 2017, Kochsucker.

        2. Not if it may reflect badly or be difficult, somehow, for the Lightworker!

  17. Why were the SAM crews on alert? Why did they think that a single large slow plane flying at 35,000 feet was a threat? Who set their rules of engagement? And why would the plane even fly over a war zone?

    A whole lot of heads ought to roll over this.

    1. Commercial airliners fly at Mach .83 or 83% of the speed of sound for you groundhogs.

      1. Slow.

        I was thinking they’d have to have mistaken it for a fighter jet, since I don’t think any bombers are in action over there. I hadn’t thought about transports, because I’m tarded. But still, what a bunch of idiots.

        1. It they mistook it for anything, they mistook it for a military cargo plane. Or maybe they are just assholes who wanted to shoot down a commercial plane?

          1. Reckless stupidity or reckless maliciousness, take your pick.

            1. Stupidly malicious recklessness?

        2. .83 mach is not slow. Non super-cruise fighters usually fly in that neighborhood.

    2. The theory is that the rebels believed they shot down a UKR military transport.

    3. The proper Ukrainian military are mostly conscripts who have proven unwilling to fight their fellow countrymen. The Kiev regime has been building up a “national guard” of hastily-trained Svoboda and Pravy Sektor types. The federalists, by contrast, have plenty of willing, skilled veteran talent to draw from.

      Also today (though you wouldn’t know it from the MSM), it’s become clear that Kiev’s SAM crews are hardly the only units performing badly.

  18. McCain: ?we don’t want to rush to conclusions, but Ukraine does not have this capability.?

    1. “we don’t want to rush to conclusions, but I have concluded…”

    2. Why is he on the teevee every time something happens, regardless of whether he has any “expertise” on the issue?

      There could be a tour bus crash in Nova Scotia, and McCain would be flapping his gums about it on my screen.

      1. You have to get someone I guess. The other question is, why can’t the media could shut the fuck up until they actually know what happened rather than pulling shit out of their ass? Every single time something happens, the media gets the story completely wrong because they are too lazy and impatient to get it right.

        1. Being first is more important than being right. Journalism 101, apparently.

  19. The Obama administration and Hillary’s (and later John Kerry’s) State Department made the scenario possible by sponsoring the overthrow of a democratically-elected regime, backing openly fascist elements in the process. This whole fiasco of a foreign adventure could and should have been avoided.

    1. Senator Lindy Graham? Is that you?

      1. It is true. But modern Democrats are fascist. So, you really can’t say it is surprising that they would like fascists in other countries.

      2. Palin’s Buttplug|7.17.14 @ 1:14PM|#
        “Senator Lindy Graham? Is that you?”

        Fuck you, turd. Where’s the emails?

  20. A Russian GRU officer had already taken credit for shooting down the plane on Twitter before it was realized the AN-26 he just shot down was a 777:…..rn-ukraine

    1. DOH!! Never go into combat with a Twitter account.

    2. I don’t see any reference to the Twee it question in that article.

      1. Crap. It was there when I posted the link, but it got removed in a later edit.

      2. You can find it here:…..ign=buffer

    3. Why in the fuck are the first words in that article “President Obama”? That’s fucking ridiculous.

      1. We live in a Lightworker-centric system, Mr. Beach.

    4. I’d be interested to know when the account was established and what previous tweets were sent from it.

  21. Seems like the woman holding this state department press conference wasn’t really given any information.

    1. Did she say which YouTube video provoked the attack?

      1. What difference at this point does it make?

  22. 23 Americans on board killed.


  23. Eighteen years ago today,TWA Flight 800 blew up and crashed in New York. I’m sure that’s just a coincidence.

    1. Dude, there are only 365 days in a year.

    2. 158 years ago today, The Great Train Wreck of 1856 took 67 lives. Coincidence? That’s what they want you to think.

      1. Lizard people live for centuries. They just keep on shedding their human skins for new ones.

      2. That was most excellent, Bam! The cut of your jib….I like it.

  24. Charlie Cooke and Dana Loesch just tweeted that Obama turned his press conference on the plane crash into something about Republicans not passing another stimulus. If true, that is insane. I can’t tell if they’re joking or not. Can anyone confirm?

    1. He didn’t have a press conference on the plane crash. He had a scheduled press conference on other matters where he briefly mentioned the crash in his opening remarks.

      1. Thanks, that’s slightly better that what I thought had happened.

      2. So he had a scheduled press conference on Republicans not passing another stimulus, and plowed through it despite other developments?

        1. From what I saw, it was one of those rah-rah staged events, not a presser.

          1. That’s what the O administration calls a press conference.

    2. From what I saw it wasn’t a press conference, it was a previously-scheduled event in Delaware and he only spoke about 2 sentences about MH17 before launching into his prepared speech.

      1. In fairness, thinking on his feet is not something Obama is very good at. I am sure his staff was terrified that he even said two sentences that were not on the teleprompter.

        1. I wonder what he said on the phone to Putin without the teleprompter.

  25. Future Salon headline:

    How White Privilege Shot Down Flight MH17.

    1. MH17, 235 more victims or white racism.

  26. Looks like 23 Americans were on board.

  27. Does anyone know how likely/unlikely it is that Russian separatist would be able to learn how to effectively operate a BUK without training from the Russia military? Seems they’ve developed pretty lethal efficiency in a short amount of time.

    1. When you have a Russian Special Forces guy there telling you what to do, it is easier than you think.

  28. Who’s to blame?
    George Bush, obviously!

  29. Someone should send Barrack Hussein Obama a hash tag#### Thanks for a Tranquil world but he might not get it on the golf course!! So foolish America!!

    1. So much sorrow for the families of the lost.So much sorrow In this world

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