Tonight on The Independents: Friends, Enemies, and Chaos in the Middle East
Do you know how certain people on the Internet are fond of formulations like "Everything you need to know about ____________"? It is of course an asinine statement, since it is impossible for any single human to judge any other human's precise need for knowledge, let alone presume to have amassed the precise quality and mix of the stuff. Nitpicky throat-clearing aside, if you have an interest in and worry about the tumult in the Middle East and North Africa, and you don't consider yourself an expert, then chances are very good that you will find something useful in tonight's theme episode of The Independents (Fox Business Network, 9 p.m. ET, 6 p.m. PT, with re-airs three and five hours later).
"Friends, Enemies and Chaos" begins with a series of backgrounders from Wall Street Journal multimedia explainer Jason Bellini, Fox News Middle Eastern specialist Lisa Daftari, and Michael Weiss of The Interpreter. Who are the teams? From where did those ISIS scaries emerge and what do they want? What is the nature and import of the Sunni/Shia schism? You'll likely know more going out than you did going in.
As for what, if anything, the United States should do about the chaos, both short term and long term, we tease out some scenarios with The Blaze national security chief (and former CIA employee) Buck Sexton, KABC radio host (and multiple-theater combat veteran) Bryan Suits, former Reagan-administration deputy defense secretary K.T. McFarland, and Heritage Foundation Director of National Security Policy Steven Bucci. And because this is The Independents, there will be a mid-show game you can compete along with at home, plus a dash of at least some long-term optimism, in a discussion about whatever the hell happened to the Arab Spring.
Tweet along your reviews, sartorial and otherwise, @ independentsFBN. Facebook page is at facebook.com/IndependentsFBN, and you can click on this page for video of past segments.
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Speaking of ME nutters, I was in a meeting recently with a bunch of doctors and had the chance to quote, I believe it was a Marine colonel in Iraq:
Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
It sets the tone nicely for medical staff meetings, I think.
R C Dean
Was he Australian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyNuriXG3BQ#t=1m13s
Good God Matt. There's still coffee in my mug you've posted The Independents thread already?
When will < i The Independents finally do a show about the tumult here in the United States?
Fist, I'm really curious about this. Every time you post "The Independents" you have part of a failed open italics tag included. What's the deal?
Oh, who remembers.
Oh, wait. I remember. There was a whole week of show posts where Welch couldn't even be bothered to fix the tag in the title. He just kept copying and pasting the same thing, thus showing the utter contempt he has for the viewer.
Ah thank you. Another H&R mystery solved.
They covered that celebrities-in-an-elevator fight, what more do you want?
A Kardashian Kage Match?
Agreed. A fight to the death, and then kill the winner.
Nothing "happened" to the Arab Spring, because the Arab Spring was as fictional as Margaret Mead's anthropology; a creation of outsiders substituting their hopes, desires, and dreams upon a half-understood and fully misinterpreted phenomenon.
^Nicely put.
Can we please leave this kind of reactionary fatalism to conservatives? Yes, there was way too much optimism. Doesn't change the fact that Tunisia has recently adopted a very nice constitution that protects the rights of women. Not perfect, but an improvement. Yemen is also improved-the new president is actually fighting AQAP not just pretending to to get American support.
Iraq has (had) a good Constitution, too.
Too bad all of Tunisia's hard work is going to be undone by their growing Salafi movement.
I do agree with you, though, that Hadi is doing a better job at fighting off AQ than Saleh. We'll see if he allows another election though.
all of Tunisia's hard work is going to be undone by their growing Salafi movement.
You don't know that. That's exactly the fatalism I just criticized.
And yet, when it comes to radical vanguardist movements co-opting popular revolts, I would argue that history is on my side.
OT: Lady behind Redskin patent lawsuit wants to go after Chiefs next.
As a Redskin fan it's funny to see the Chiefs fans talk about how racist Redskins is than proceed to use the exact same arguments as the Redskins fan base to defend their name. I also think these people are spreading themselves a little thin as they are proving the slippery slope argument
And next they'll go after the NY Giants because their team name is insensitive to people who suffer from Gigantism.
No one knows what to do about the fact that the people of the ME don't really want what the US is selling. Mainstream conservatives seem to have a schiziophrenia which allows them to believe the worst of our domestic Muslim population while simultaneously believing that the heart of every Middle Easterner beats to the rhythms of European social democracy. The left is busy thinking that the Middle East, like everywhere else, suffers from imperialism and a lack of resources -- that they are a poverty program and US apology tour away from social cohesion. Libertarians are mostly delusional about the prospects of the region (and its propensity to send murderous fanatics our way) once it is released from the Little Satan's grip.
Of course, it's better to have no plan at all than a bad one, so hopefully someone will take Rand Paul up on his foreign policy while moderating it with some pragmatism. Mostly, the US needs a time-out to figure out what its strategic interests in the region are and how feasible it is to achieve them.
Yawn.
Wake me up when ISIS or AQ have a blue-water navy and/or ICBMs.
I didn't know OBL sent the 9/11 hijackers over here with a navy. I didn't know our embassies couldn't be attacked without ICBMs.
Airlines and embassies can be protected without the need for a heavy military presence in another region of the world, no?
Not...necessarily. Having a few bases in foreign places is a good way to back those installations up. Guess it depends on what you mean by 'heavy military presence'.
Yeah, one would think.
What I'm saying is that the wrong way to fight terrorism is to use conventional forces. I believe John Robb makes an excellent case for this in his book on 4th gen warfare. If you read OBL's own writings on the subject, what he wanted is for us to become all wrapped up in this tar baby so we would piss away trillions of dollars. As Robb points out, the price per terrorist is about 10,000 dollars; the price per American soldier averages about 1 million. Even if we had no boots on the ground, with the right strategy and precautions the American "homeland" could be protected.
"Source for 1 million figure
We need to being those cost numbers down.
We already tried non-conventional warfare and that led to 9/11. If America had destroyed the state sponsors of terror like it should have done decades ago we'd be at peace.
"We already tried non-conventional warfare and that led to 9/11."
When? How? What are you even talking about?
Get over 9/11 already.
1) It's been almost 13 years now without an even remotely similar attempt at an airline hijacking
2) The only reason it happened in the first place is because the common wisdom throughout the 80s-90s was not to confront airplane hijackers because they almost never killed anybody. Any chance of that still being the case?
Woosh! Point missed!
Sorry, I didn't reply to part II, since I thought it was even more obvious:
Embassies are not military bases. By definition. If the country is a hostile country that wants to kill your people on sight, close your embassy.
I'm not talking about conventional militaries.
Maybe terrorist attacks are the cost of doing business in today's world and we just have to deal with that (and I'm not being sarcastic here, it is one of a set of mature responses to the problem). It would be nice to see libertarians make that case rather than delving into nonsense about blowback as it pertains to the situation.
C'mon, tell me that you don't see a lot of pollyanna thinking on the subject from antiwar.com, Rockwell's site, and Reason on the prospects of regional peace and international terrorism once you remove the US from the region.
Fair enough, but you have to recognize there is an equally popular strain of "I don't give a shit"-ism within libertarian thought on the issue. And I don't. When we leave Afghanistan, if the next day Karzai swings from the gallows, I don't give a shit. If al-Maliki announces that the new name of Iraq is Iran Jr., I don't give a shit. I can even extend this outside of the region, if Russian tanks level Kiev and Putin personally pours dioxin down Yushchenko's throat himself, I don't give a shit.
I guess with a few caveats I could get behind crotchety "don't give a fuck" libertarian foreign policy.
Well, I may, in fact give a shit. However, it is also not our position to use the resources of the government to intervene. Anyone who wants to go out and fight "bad guys" under a private banner is welcome to try it. I'll also understand if they are hanged as brigands wherever they end up.
"pollyanna thinking on the subject"
There is a definite tendency in certain sectors to think that no conflict ever happens anywhere in the world without the US causing it, which is silly.
It is also silly to think that we have any military role over there in preventing future conflicts. I think the average Iraqi would be surprised that we think they think this is primarily our issue, and that they are playing only a supporting role at best.
I would express my own position not as "all of the ME problems will be solved if the US just leaves," but as "the US isn't doing anything productive over there, and is only fomenting further violence and upgrading the level of evil dictators that wind up in power."
The US military leaving is a necessary precursor to resolving their conflicts, but it is not in itself the solution.
This thread better be cleared of all these comments by the time the show starts.
Why, because you weren't first? That eats at you, doesn't it?
No, because this is a comment thread for live blogging < i The Independents. Everything else is noise.
BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!
The Bourbon is with this Death Star shaped ice sphere mold
But don't be too proud of this thermodynamic terror you've constructed; the power to cool your gin is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.
+1 exhaust port
David Brooks: America Has Lost Faith in 'Universal Democracy'
Now The Times won't allow you to copy and paste their brilliant work, so here are some choice passages that I assure you make no sense even in context. Ahem:
H/t to Gene Healy's twitter feed.
Yes, according to Brooks, Hell is people going their own separate ways and making individual choices because they don't believe hard enough in democracy to subvert their will to grandiose projects like nation-building.
Brooks is like a manifestation of the worst ideas of conservatives and liberals rolled into one.
It's telling that the NYT selects him as the Voice of Responsible Conservatism.
"UC considering ban on Uber, Lyft, Airbnb"
[...]
..."these services are not fully regulated"...
http://blog.sfgate.com/techchr.....hc-bustech
'Nuff said.
Is there anybody out there?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNLhxKpfCnA
Yes, and We're Ready:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUcnjWOsIsE
Prediction: Nobody remembers this thread because it's buried down here and nobody bothers to bump it.
He's a witch!
He turned me into a newt!
Or too lazy to go looking for it.
I think this is Welch just being hard on us because we've been so critical the last few weeks.
Based on his Twitter I think he's vacationing in France. So just picture him wearing a beret and drinking white wine scoffing at us.
I thought he was afraid of frogs.
What, no bump? I had to hack through weeds to find this...
See Neil Cavuto's tie? That would look good w/ Matt's grey shirt affliction.
Something like this
In cavuto's case, it was navy on a lighter blue. but same deal.
Prediction: Pretape.
PLUNGING NECKLINE! And standards.
OH SHIT OH SHIT
I haven't been told to assemble!
WHAT DO I DO!?
Dissemble.
Oh great, the show replaced Kennedy with an android version of her. That or her cooper-hued skin is the jaundice.
Vest! Gilmore's going to lose his shit.
Pop-up Video. That's VH1, Kennedy. Not MTV.
This is the longest a party panel member has spoken without interruption.
Land is power, sickos.
Is that why Australia is the key to winning Risk?
That was a joke the game makers played on us.
Somewhat on topic:
During the First Barbary War, the US asked the Muslim ambassador from Tripoli why they were attacking US ships. The ambassador said:
"It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once."
I wonder if any of this will come up in tonight's show.
I think it's time to flatten the region and build this:
http://bit.ly/1pYEclw
Build the fence!
Sykes-Picot? More like *sucks* Picot, lol
besticouldcomeupwithonthespurofthemoment.com
So Turkey is *protecting* the Kurds now?
Neckbeard dude has not changed at all since monday. This means he trims and grooms his shitty-lazy look to maintain a perpetual 'just out of bed' look.
We do not approve.
Damned if you trim; damned if you don't.
Let it grow wild!
This means this show was taped on Monday.
DEAR GOD = HE MUST BE RIGHT
You know, I'm starting to fear getting beer with you. My style can only hope to disappoint.
And how shocked will HE be... when he learns.... I'm a SLOB!?
All the videos I see of ISIS make them look like muslim rednecks, pickup trucks, camo, guns, and hanging out of camo pickups with guns.
But I'm guessing no beers in their coolers.
Best Mideast Peace Proposal I know of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIEeiDjdUuU
"Can you tell the difference between Sunni and Shiites?"
Is there a difference? I think you lead them all the same.
What, he's over here now?
Before we worry about freedom in the Middle East, could we have it here first?
Police strip woman naked and keep her in cell for several hours:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2-L3YCBJ0A
You don't break away if you get along.
The Independents Attire Review, 27 June 2014
Decline and Fall-Edition
- Kennedy: Wicca *is* an underappreciated religion. Sadly, Kennedy is still a few sisters short of a coven. But whoohoo! the lady in green there looks like she could Newt-ify anyone who looks at her funny. We know Kennedy's not really wearing black, and its a nice Navy blue, but for fuck's sake = i have to find something to talk about.
- Matt: Oh shit! Tie War = Kmele and Matt failed to coordinate and now Shit Is On. We have to give credit to Matt for bringing a strong challenge here, the "normal" look of a 'white shirt & bold-tie' I always applaud. However...
- Kmele: Drops the MOAB/'Daisy Cutter' of Men's Fashion - the 3-piece. Everything else in the room has just been obliterated. There's no contest. Its like Iraq in the Gulf War, with *less* TV coverage, because the camera-people are scared if they let people see Kmele that everyone else will just look like shit. Which they will. This recieves the highest of all acknowledgements = the GILMORE SEAL OF APPROVAL, Uptown Top Ranking Award.
Walk Good
I believe this is the exact reason Reagan got out of Beirut. Impossible to tell friend from enemy.
Yeah, it's so messed up no matter what the U.S. does it's bound to go against them.
Why bother?
The question is how the heck do you even begin to figure this out if you're the United States?
"We're not Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, we're Islamic State in Syria and Iraq!"
Neckbeard says = Lots of stuff
bad at simple summary. yes, we can all read lots of stuff too. In half as much time he could have said, "3 key points"
- The US have no allies in the region now, except maybe the kurds.
- ISIS is actually just the terrorist 'element' of a wide revolt.
- Even the shia want to get rid of maliki and find someone to keep the country in one piece
Even shorter: They're all crazy bastards; stay the hell away.
Even shorter: They're all crazy bastards; stay the hell away.
Why can't < i The Independents get guests like Geordi LaForge?
Because it's the Wesley Crusher of the Fox News group.
That's nothing. You should talk to Baptists about Methodists.
I think kennedy freshened her lipstick just there.
Iranian - and Armenian - women are pretty.
I always found it funny how Joseph Smith was much more like Mohammad (Peas be Upon Him) than Jesus.
No, the correct comparison is L Ron Hubbard.
Obama is standing knee deep in his own bullshit. I don't envy him either.
Anti-war base? I'm pretty sure that was an anti-Bush war base.
Bush signing off on memos justifying torture: IMPEACH! WAR CRIMINAL!
Obama signing off on memos justifying assassination: Ehhhh, it's war, what can you do? Put the guy who wrote them on the Federal bench.
Don't worry- Obama has a fool-proof plan to win over the Islamic world:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2-1PALwwIo
Poor John Kerry can't catch a break.
I thought he did by registering his yacht in Rhode Island to avoid Massachusetts taxes.
Even there people got on his shit about it. Like everyone doesn't park their yacht in a neighboring state to avoid taxes after telling everyone that paying taxes was patriotic. I mean, really.
Oh, wait. I think that was Biden. Kerry knows a good tax dodge when he sees it.
Buck Sexton looks like he borrowed his jacket from Peter Suderman
Peter's jackets all wear like cardigans
Newt takes it on the chin.
Newt is wearing the same tie as Matt and Kmele
This is the real reason everything happening now is Bush's fault. If he and other republicans actually followed their stated principles we wouldn't be suffering the wrath of the proggs.
Tom Friedman
Well, the fact that you're naming hypocrites makes it obvious in most case who to pick.
For an expert, Buck Turgidson got a lot of wrong answers.
He couldn't see the big board.
Kennedy patronizing her way into the break.
When did Kissinger say that? Hasn't he always been for these straitjacket wars?
You're thinking of Henry Killinger.
The most coherent explanation I could find on Islamic terrorism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De1wNLEGQ30
That has 300,000 views.
disturbing - the video and the large number of views.
Purify yourself with some actual Benny Hill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPJFS26gckk
That helped a little, thank you.
Eh, I'm going to El Pollo Loco. BRB with salty chicken.
I'm turning leftover hen into a salad. I grilled it up yesterday and it was delicious.
I HAD A DELMONICO STEAK AND THEN MY CHOCOLATE MILK AND NOW A COOKIE.
For me: beef brisket sandwich with srirache, sweet potato fries, & gin & tonic.
Ah, gin & tonic. Wish I discovered these years ago.
WHY ARE YOU YELLING?
The hens were spares from Pl?ya, which is why I mentioned them.
But for dessert I'm hoping to have a lemon ginger sorbet, we'll see if I can get the whole sugar simple syrup to cool in time to throw it together.
I kind of want a chocolate milk now.
I hope they were more flavorful than the 1st run. I only marinated them for 30 minutes or so. After 24 hours, it's much better.
Who calls it a delmonico anymore? You, apparently.
But the British *did* pacify the area in the 1920s!
Does all of Fox Biz have cut-and-run-itis? Bring a hawk on to tell me why taking over Iraq will accomplish missions.
Why would I want to listen to some guy getting constantly interrupted?
Kennedy: Ask me what the most important thing in interviewing is.
Guest: What's the most important thing in inter-
Kennedy: TIMING!
It's 30 years my brother in law says let them kill and exhaust each other while the Americans should just be 'observers' and pick up the pieces. No fuss, no muss.
Kill the snake? Starve the snake? Charm the snake?
How about stay the hell away from the snake?
Ride the snake
Why does the comment box and reply tabs keep disappearing on refresh? It's like comment rationing all over again!
Here she goes again...
"Starve the snake...."
there's never going to be 'energy independence' because global energy prices will still be in our interests to maintain stability
Yes. Even if the US imported no oil, the price would still be affected by events overseas.
Also- isn't it funny how neocons accuse libertarians of being isolationists, yet they want to stop buying foreign oil?
Has anyone considered nuking them all and letting Allah sort them out? Because I read that somewhere.
Israel
And half our policy is trying to prevent them from doing so
That's the sober reality. The long, cultural and historical legacy in the region.
Foster just argued against his point, I think.
I want my noninterventionist views reinforced, but the way they're doing it isn't working...I'm developing sympathies for the interventionist side.
I'd probably have to watch Bolton some more - that would persuade me to nonintervention if anything would.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist on a new Reason Magazine commercial.
Eh, I'm going to El Pollo Loco. BRB with salty chicken.
Oh so is that what they're calling it these days?
AH! Lou Dobbs.
They spent about 10 seconds talking about the Sunni-Shia split. Great job on the in-depth reporting, guys.
Hey guys! Did you know that the recent fighting in Iraq is due to climate change?
Yeah, cold countries don't have all these wars!
Well, there is something to be said for the stupidity of marching on Moscow with Winter approaching.
Peter the Great of Russia and Charles XII of Sweden were thinking about having a war, but they looked outside and said, "Brr! Too cold! Let's stay inside!"
General Wolfe was like, "Canada? That icebox? I'm not fighting there!"
And the Vikings spent their time indoors under warm blankets, sipping cocoa.
I said this before when another douchebag made a similar claim, but what irks me the most is the smug Progressive racism inherent in the argument. Only "civilized" Euros can fight wars due to ideology; these animalistic Brown people must be reacting to some outside physical stimulus that is causing their limbic systems to overreact!
Those pages and pages of fatwas must just be a silly instinctual reaction.
Look, you're inside your hut, sweating up a storm, the kids are acting up, your wife won't shut up with her nagging, so you just say, "OK, honey, I'm off to the jihad, don't wait up, toodles!"
Everyone knows good weather makes for peaceful people.
Why, just look at the native Hawaiians or the tribes of New Guinea.
No, I didn't know that.
Very enlightening.
For military history buffs, here is an excellent series on the Eastern Front:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhXKlYnSWjA
Now that the buffer-zone law has been struck down, howling mobs of prolifers pour into the protected areas, striking fear into the hearts of women -
http://ow.ly/i/63x6R/original