Catholic Archdiocese: Military Chaplains Face Risk of Arrest For Trying to Minister on Base

Can't volunteer

Reason

The House voted to award back pay to furloughed government workers, which the president is expected to sign, and Chuck Hagel announced over the weekend that civilian Department of Defense employees are coming back to work today. The Catholic Church's US military archdiocese, though, says its priests haven't even been welcome to volunteer their service.

From the Daily Caller:

In a stunning development, some military priests are facing arrest if they celebrate mass or practice their faith on military bases during the federal government shutdown.

"With the government shutdown, many [government service] and contract priests who minister to Catholics on military bases worldwide are not permitted to work – not even to volunteer," wrote John Schlageter, the general counsel for the Archdiocese for the Military Services USA, in an op-ed this week. "During the shutdown, it is illegal for them to minister on base and they risk being arrested if they attempt to do so."

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Comments

[Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!]

So this is now Bearded O!parallel universe? He seems to be actively working to destroy the Asses in the mid-terms...

[Pro Libertate]

Nisus Wettus: Crucifixion?

Prisoner: Yes.

Nisus Wettus: Good. Out of the door, line on the left, one cross each.

[Warty]

It could be worse. I could be stabbed.

[Pro Libertate]

Now take my case. They hanged me up here five years ago. Every night they take me down for twenty minutes, then they hang me up again. Which I regard as very fair, in view of what I've done. And if nothing else, it has taught me to respect the Romans, and it has taught me that you'll never get anywhere in this life, unless you are prepared to do a fair day's work for a fair day's. . . .

[Eduard van Haalen]

It took several clicks, but here is the original article - an editorial by the general counsel for the military archdiocese:

http://www.milarch.org/site/ap.....t=13344123

I hope some priests have the guts to risk arrest by going onto the bases and risk arrest for the "crime" of ministering to the Catholic soldiers. Or will they just back off, like the priests who just let the cops wave them away from ministering to the dying boy at the marathon bombings?

[anon]

I hope some priests have the guts to risk arrest by going onto the bases and risk arrest for the "crime" of ministering to the Catholic soldiers

Please. Nobody has any balls anymore; they value watching TV and shopping at malls too highly to lose it over petty things like liberty.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

This doesn't make any sense.

[anon]

What doesn't make sense?

Nobody will ever risk disobeying stupid fucking laws because they don't want to suffer the consequences, no matter how unjust the laws/regs are.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

Because they're too busy watching American Idol and the Stupid Bowl amirite? #derp

[anon]

Or Breaking Bad, Duck Dynasty, whatever.

People do not value their liberty anymore; so, they will lose it.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

Misanthropy is an ugly and false emotion.

[anon]

Wow, you've gone full retard today. How does expressing disgust at the veritable fact that people do not value liberty equal misanthropy?

I hate their (in)actions, not them.

[Greg83]

anon will be proven right when nothing happens...

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

I hear this kind of sniffing elitism from libertarians all the time, and it's tiresome. yeah, you guys are the only ones who have taken the Red Pill, we get it.

[anon]

"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

[sarcasmic]

Wow, you've gone full retard today.

What are you talking about. Personal attacks are Randian's SOP.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

So, here again we have someone who basically made a broadside against some vague unspecified population of millions, but I am the villain.

You need to learn to think.

[sarcasmic]

You need to learn to think.

That's funny, coming from the king (or is it queen?) of emotive language!

LMAO!

[Cytotoxic]

No, you need to STFU. Forever. I can't remember the last time you had anything worth saying. I know you get off on being pseudo-enlightened, but you're just not that smart.

Anon has made a statement. It may or may not be true. If you can't argue against it, just drop it. Get off your high horse.

[sarcasmic]

More personal attacks! How cute!

[Cytotoxic]

Er...Sarc, that was directed against Randian. Stupid threading.

[sarcasmic]

Oh. Well. Whoops.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

reasonable can be your friend if it's feasible.

[anon]

So, here again we have someone who basically made a broadside against some vague unspecified population of millions, but I am the villain.

Way to pull that red herring out of a cynical observation.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

anon,

What evidence do you have to support your observation, if any? You said:

Nobody has any balls anymore; they value watching TV and shopping at malls too highly to lose it over petty things like liberty.

Your basic assertion is that people are unprincipled because they are too enamored with materialistic things to care. I mean, I hear this a lot from all sides of the aisle: people who are engaged with politics think everyone who is not so engaged are "sheep" or whatever. Progs say it when they claim that the sheep are too dumb to know how to be led; Conservatives frequently handwring about the dummification of America...

[anon]

Your basic assertion is that people are unprincipled because they are too enamored with materialistic things to care.

The fact that at least 60 million voters voted for a man that quite literally promised them free shit.

They chose the free shit over liberty. When offered the true dichotomy of liberty vs security, voters have consistently chosen security, no matter what the cost is. Can you remember the last time the public chose to forego security to retain liberty?

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

The fact that at least 60 million voters voted for a man that quite literally promised them free shit.

Which doesn't even equal a majority of voters. The total turnout was 58% of eligible voters. Big deal.

They chose the free shit over liberty.

Mitt Romney was the liberty candidate?

Can you remember the last time the public chose to forego security to retain liberty?

They do this all the time, just not in visible ways.

[Neoliberal Kochtopus]

Snark and misanthropy are the poor man's version of insightful commentary and thought.

[robc]

Johnson was on their ballots too.

[sarcasmic]

To be fair Randian, there are A LOT of stupid people out there.

[anon]

Damn, I was expecting a Jezebel link.

[sarcasmic]

I don't do Jez.

[EJ Raines]

And here's something you need...

[Floridian]

"What doesn't make sense?

Nobody will ever risk disobeying stupid fucking laws because they don't want to suffer the consequences, no matter how unjust the laws/regs are."

I would think priests would be different from the general public. Aren't they suppose to take vows of poverty and devote their life to the church? Seems like it would be hard to intimidate someone who believes god has his back. Most everyone else I agree would prefer not to go to jail.

[Eduard van Haalen]

One would hope priests would do this (though not all of them take vows of poverty). However, they are a mixed bag. I think people outside the Church would respect them more if they went to jail for something that doesn't involve choirboys.

Plus administering the sacraments is an absolute duty. There are many examples of priests administering the sacraments at the risk of their lives - in plague-stricken houses, among lepers, in Penal Law-era Ireland and England, etc.

I hope some of that spirit is present in American priests.

[Floridian]

"One would hope priests would do this (though not all of them take vows of poverty). "

I did not know that. Thanks.

[Eduard van Haalen]

"Many Catholics and non-Catholics alike erroneously believe that all Catholic priests are obliged to live in poverty, but in fact this is not the case. Some clergy have made vows of poverty, while others have not....

"At the same time, however, the Church does want her priests to live luxuriously. Canon 282.1 states clearly that the clergy are to follow a simple way of life, and are to avoid anything which suggests worldliness. Lavish vacations, expensive designer clothing, and luxury vehicles would probably fit into this category...."

http://catholicexchange.com/th.....f-poverty/

[Eduard van Haalen]

"does *not* want her priests to live" etc.

[TommyCelt]

Only priests that belong to religious orders (Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, etc.) take vows. The vast majority of priests are diocesan priests, and take no vows.

[Seamus]

Which is why Jesuits have to forego single-malt scotch and limit themselves to Johnny Walker Black.

[Floridian]

At least it is not JW red. Gross.

[sarcasmic]

Please. Nobody has any balls anymore; they value watching TV and shopping at malls too highly to lose it over petty things like liberty.

To be fair, some of us have families that we would have trouble supporting from prison.

[anon]

Even though I don't have children, I can definitely understand placing their welfare above your personal liberty; though I don't know how I'd personally reconcile my posterity's liberty vs welfare.

[Smilin' Joe Fission]

I am not going to lie, past voting and non-violent protest, I am not going to jeopardize everything I have worked for in my life at this point. We have not reached a point where I deem the return on taking that chance worth the cost to me.

Where I defer from the majority, is that I think past TEAM and emotion, and use history and human nature as a guide to my political leanings. When/if I vote, I am not voting for someone who makes me feel good or promises more free stuff from the government. I am voting for someone who is philosphically alligned with my beliefs and who I believe, from looking into their past record, is going to fight for liberty if elected.

Until things truly take a turn for the worst and Nazi Germany is truly around the corner, there are other way to fight for liberty that don't involve the real posibility of a criminal record.

[Brett L]

It would be nice to see a 2000 year old tradition of blithely ignoring the edicts of Emperors continued.

[Pro Libertate]

This is one case where we know precisely What Jesus Would Do.

[PapayaSF]

+888

[Brett L]

Shrug, say "Render unto Caesar" and go find some party that needed their water changed to wine, right?

[Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!]

But conduct of worship wouldn't be "Caesar's"...but if He wouldn't mind changing a few gallons of H2O to Shiraz and Pinot Noir, He could stop by my house...

[Brett L]

Man, I need to recalibrate my sarcasm, it isn't tripping anyone's meter.

[Finrod]

It's hard to say something about this administration that's obviously ridiculous, because this administration has done so many ridiculous things.

[Mike M.]

In a stunning development, some military priests are facing arrest if they celebrate mass or practice their faith on military bases during the federal government shutdown.

Stunning? I'm not stunned in the least. Anyone who's stunned hasn't been paying enough attention these last few years.

[anon]

Yeah, arresting a priest for volunteering sounds totally legit.

Seriously, have I gone retarded or has everyone that has anything to do with government?

[Hillary's Clitdong]

How dare they suggest that people would supply services for free? ALL MUST BE PAID FOR WITH THE HOLY TAX DOLLARS.

[Aloysious]

Doesn't this violate the First Amendment? Or does one waive their rights when they sign up for military service?

[anon]

Both.

[Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!]

Yes.

[Zeb]

If the priests are civilians, then they don't waive their rights. But the first doesn't guarantee a right to practice your religion anywhere you want. I'd say this is more an issue of just plain meanness and stupidity.

[Aloysious]

thx.

[Aloysious]

great. wonderful.

[Killazontherun]

No more than shutting down the Lincoln Center or NPR would violate 1A. Still a dick move though.

[Hugh Akston]

There's plenty of space for the words "during shutdown" in that headline Eddie.

[Brett L]

Does it matter? Is it ever okay?

[Hugh Akston]

Well without those words it could appear to the casual reader that this is a ZOMG OBAMA BIN LADEN HATES TEH JESUS story of the sort that idiots would read on NoozMaxx, rather than just another piece of dumbass shutdown theater. So yeah, it does matter.

[Paul.]

But does Obama Bin Hitler love the jesus?

[Hugh Akston]

Of course not. Barack HUSSEIN YOU GUYS Obama is a Kenyan stealth mooselimb imam here to impose sharia healthcare law on us all.

[Brett L]

Ah, I see your point. Right. Not because the President is a secret Muslim. Just a petty little grifter. Agreed.

[Sevo]

No, but the 'shutdown' is the proximate cause.

[anon]

AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA FUCK YOU MOTHERFUCKER YOU DESERVE IT

""Of course, I want people to have health care," Vinson said. "I just didn't realize I would be the one to pay for it personally."

[Sevo]

anon,
The 404 page doesn't have the story.

[anon]

Oh goddamnit, I just closed it too.
Let us try this.

[fish]

"I'm not against Obamacare," Waschura said. "It's just the initial shock. I'm holding out hope that there will be a correction over a handful of years."

Here's where your hysterical laughter should have been directed!

[carol]

I know a handful is more than a couple but is it more or less than a few? Wouldn't want to get me expectations up needlessly.

[Sevo]

Muy betta!
Yep, she wanted someone ELSE to pay for that free healthcare she wants! Where did her unicorns go?

[Hillary's Clitdong]

What a bunch of turdlets. Libertarians can be consistent in that they don't want expensive social services AND they don't want to pay for them. These dummies are quite literally saying that they DO want the expensive social services but they don't want to pay for them.

[anon]

When one doesn't have principles, it's impossible to be consistent.

[Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!]

I think they are quite consistent - "gimme my free shit!"

[anon]

Do they still teach "No Free Lunch" in programming?

How can one live past 21 and *not* realize that nothing is "free?"

[Sevo]

"How can one live past 21 and *not* realize that nothing is "free?""
Well, Obama told 'em so.
Obama said it, they believe it and that settles it!

[PapayaSF]

"Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax that fellow behind the tree."

[Suthenboy]

I have to say, I get enormous satisfaction from reading that.

What moronic pieces of shit.

Who was the black congresswoman that complained on twitter about her premiums going up and not being able to find out why? I cant remember.

I am begining to wonder if letting everyone vote is a good idea. I mean, Jesus, you dont give a retarded kid a loaded pistol to play with.

[Ken Shultz]

"The House voted to award back pay to furloughed government workers, which the president is expected to sign, and Chuck Hagel announced over the weekend that civilian Department of Defense employees are coming back to work today."

Voting to pay government workers for doing nothing* can't be a popular move. I mean, I hope that will make people feel even less sympathetic towards the president's position.

*even less than they usually do. You know what I mean!

[Eduard van Haalen]

So the administration supports a stand-alone bill to pay furloughed bureaucrats, but it's absurd and insulting to even ask if they want to pass a stand-alone NIH funding bill?

If the Republicans had brains, they'd hammer this home day after day - "OMG, kids with cancer aren't getting funding because the Dems are blocking our bill!"

[Ken Shultz]

The Republicans don't do PR the way the Democrats do PR.

That's why they keep getting their clocks cleaned.

[Loki]

It helps that the Dems get free 24/7 PR from MSNBC.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Some Republicans are doing that. The establishment Rs probably think it's too mean.

[Eduard van Haalen]

Yeah, they want to polite losers like McCain an get praised in the NY Times.

[Cytotoxic]

Why the hell did the House GOP sign off on this?

[Night Elf Mohawk]

To show that the Ds will, in fact, approve spending bills other than Reid's moronic "clean CR" requirement.

[anon]

Why the hell did the House GOP sign off on this?

Oh come on. The GOP loves spending money too; they don't care if they actually get a service for their money, because it's not theirs to begin with.

[Brett L]

Separates the workers from the bosses. Now the talking point, "the GOP hates honest, hardworking government employees" can be defended against. Everyone's gonna get paid as soon as we go back to work. Except for the concessions contractors at the Zoo. Because fuck those honest, non-unionized, hourly wage slaves.

[Ken Shultz]

"Why the hell did the House GOP sign off on this?"

I think it puts more pressure on the Obama Administration.

I think Obama only signed it because he had to. Obama doesn't want stories running about people getting paid by the taxpayers to sit at home and do nothing.

[Sevo]

"Either way, markets seem generally calm. But Valliere says it may take a strong market reaction to cajole House Republicans."
Asshole is hoping for a market crash to teach those rethuglicans a lesson!
(note picture of crying child: It's for the childrunz!)
http://www.sfgate.com/default/.....875333.php

[Loki]

(note picture of crying child: It's for the childrunz!)

I thought that was actually the author...

[Death Rock and Skull]

Isn't living on a military base supposed to be pretty much like college? Who the fuck has time to go to church? They should permanently lay off them motherfuckers.

[Eduard van Haalen]

I understand that even on Parris Island, the recruits have time for Church on Sunday. Assuming there's priests there to minister to them.

[Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!]

So you are not a fan of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

[Brett L]

Technically, the Administration is not in violation as Congress made no law.

[Eduard van Haalen]

Either they have no statutory authorization for their actions, in which case it's illegal, or else there's a statute authorizing their action, in which case it's also unconstitutional.

[Brett L]

Pretty sure the FYTW clause covers this, just like violations to your 4A and 5A rights that Congress never technically approved. Like drug sniffing dogs.

[Finrod]

FYTW seems to be the justification for most of what this administration does.

[PapayaSF]

Really? If it's "illegal" for them to minister, then there must be a law, correct? Or can a President just decree that religion can't be freely exercised on military bases during the shutdown, without being in violation of the 1st Amendment?

[Brett L]

I don't know. I'm just saying that there's no law. I think its illegal, yes. I was being a smartass.

[Zeb]

Saying that priests can't come on the base isn't saying that religion can't be freely exercised. Nothing is stopping them from practicing elsewhere. I think this is totally stupid assholery on the part of the administration, but I just don't see the constitutional issue. The constitution doesn't guarantee access to clergy at a particular location. And the first amendment doesn't apply to active military people, does it? I thought you had to give that up when you sign up.

[Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!]

I was addressing the larger point about "who the fuck has time to go to church." and laying off clergy in a story about clergy being threatened with arrest if they provide free worship support.

[Zeb]

You should be able to answer this. I'm not quite sure if my understanding is correct. Is it the case that you have to give up your first amendment rights when you sign up for the military (when you are active anyway)?

[Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!]

You can place limitations on them (easy example, expression when you are out deployed, no calling home and chatting about locations, dispositions, etc). But actively stopping worship on a CONUS base might run into the limits of such time/place restrictions on FoW.

[Zeb]

I could see that. I'm all for as absolute as possible freedom of religion. But I am wary of exceptions to laws for religion. If a rule or law violates religious freedom, then it should not apply to anyone, regardless of their religion or lack thereof.

[Zeb]

Firing priests wouldn't prohibit the free exercise of religion. It doesn't say that congress has to enable the free exercise of religion for anyone.

[Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!]

But barring/arresting volunteer clergy would prohibit the free exercise thereof. If there was a security lockdown and Father soandso couldn't go on base - too bad. Normal day and they arrest Friar Innocent for daring to hold Mass, problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

.gov reopens Amber Alert website after some bad publicity for the Legal Department.

After being taken down, officially because of the government shutdown, the federal website dealing with alerts about abducted children ? AmberAlert.gov ? was restored Monday morning.

"The Amber Alert system was never interrupted, but to eliminate any confusion, the informational site maintained by the Justice Department has been restored," Justice Department spokesman Brian Fallon told CNN.

The website for the Office of Justice Programs, which hosts Amber Alert information, has been "shut down" due to funding issues, a senior Justice Department official told CNN.

Oops. Meanwhile, Obama keeps the golf course at Andrews AFB open.

[Paul.]

Oops. Meanwhile, Obama keeps the golf course at Andrews AFB open.

Essential services. Essential services!

[The Rt. Hon. Serious Man, Visc]

It's like he aspires to be Nero: persecuting Christians for voluntarily ministering to people and golfing while DC burns.

[Pro Libertate]

Amazing. It's all the Republicans' fault that the president is deciding, pretty much in his sole discretion, what closes and what does not. And the decision-making is appalling.

No way the Democrats come out of this unscathed, regardless of the media's attempts to solely pin this on the GOP. At best--and this is very bad for them--the whole business turns more of the country against government in general.

[Somalian Road Corporation]

I hope you're right but from what I can see the "Republican obstructionist kulak wrecker/hoarder" drum has plenty of life in it yet. I have yet to see a single shutdown-related story resonate with anyone who isn't already at least partly a choir member. Nope, it's all Republicans, all their fault, all the time.

Man, if you'd told me in 2007 or so that I'd be spending so much time in the near future defending the dear old GOP for reasons of intellectual honesty, I would have burst out laughing.

[Pro Libertate]

I think the GOP will come out of this relatively unscathed--they did in the 90s, after all, which was not as easily explained as this impasse is--but the real winners should be limited government proponents in general. No way this ends without people thinking a little more often that the government is truly fucked up.

[Eduard van Haalen]

Wait - so they *can* afford to keep that Web site up? Then why did they claim they had to close it because of the shutdown? Is it possible they were lying?

[Paul.]

OT: Justice Ginsburg: Biden 2016!

"I think it's going to be another Democratic president" after Obama, Ginsburg said. "The Democrats do fine in presidential elections; their problem is they can't get out the vote in the midterm elections."

http://www.volokh.com/2013/10/.....-election/

[Finrod]

There haven't been two consecutive different Democratic Presidents elected since before Lincoln except for when the first one died in office.

[John]

They risk criminal prosecution under the anti-deficiency act. I think there has been one prosecution under that act in history. And the act prohibits the government spending money that has not been appropriated or for the wrong purpose. The normal anti deficiency act violation is someone using maintenance funds to build a building. There are some amazing violations of it. Things like an Air Force commander who built an entire airfield one $100,000 chunk at a time without using construction funds. Despite this, no one is ever prosecuted for even egregious violations. The idea a Priest would be prosecuted for giving mass on base is laughable. I don't think the Catholic Church is living well enough to get that kind of good publicity.

This whole thing is a big nothing. No one is going to be prosecuted. Priests need to do what they do and dare the government to stop them, which they won't.

[SugarFree]

Were military chaplains cut out of the bill that was passed to pay armed forces salaries?

I haz confused.

[Pro Libertate]

I believe that's the state you're intended to be in.

[Hyperion]

OT, but if you read this story and it doesn't piss you off, it probably means you've stopped caring.

disability scammers

[SugarFree]

It's pretty easy to qualify. Frighteningly so. You need two qualifying disabilities or chronic illnesses. I have 4 or 5 depending on the arguments you could get them to accept.

[Hyperion]

I used to know a guy who got disability by claiming a bad back. He would hobble around in public with a walking stick, but if you saw the guy at home, there was clearly nothing wrong with him.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

I wonder if I could swing disability and expatriation so I wouldn't have to bother with a cane.

[SugarFree]

I wonder how much of this fund going broke is fat people getting mobility scooters?

Paintsville, KY has so many they had to build a highway overpass so they could get to Walmart without getting in a car.

[Brett L]

All I can see is the end of Heathers now. Shit.

[Brett L]

Actually, I've mashed up the suicide attempt with the ending to make a Martha Dumptruck medley.

[Paul.]

It's been called a "secret welfare system" with it's own "disability industrial complex," a system ravaged by waste and fraud. A lot of people want to know what's going on. Especially Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma.

NPR covered this a few months ago and it lit up their switchboard. When NPR begins to question "Free Stuff", you know you've probably got a problem.

The Social Security Administration, which runs the disability program says the explosive surge is due to aging baby boomers and the lingering effects of a bad economy.

Bullshit. The SS admin has created incentives for people to be disabled. This started long before the 'lingering effects' of a bad economy. And what does that even mean? If I'm disabled, what does the economy have to do with it? I'm eligible for SS payments if I'm "disabled", economy be damned.

Last year, his staff randomly selected hundreds of disability files and found that 25 percent of them should never have been approved -- another 20 percent, he said, were highly questionable.

Only 25 percent? And only 20 percent above that questionable? I call bullshit. that seems low.

[Brett L]

45% fraud seems right to me. If only because the definitions are so broad, that you don't have to be disabled to receive the check anyhow.

[sarcasmic]

NPR covered this a few months ago and it lit up their switchboard. When NPR begins to question "Free Stuff", you know you've probably got a problem.

I caught a lot of that. It was an eye opener.

Basically it said that when Unemployment runs out, it's time to switch to Disability, and at that point they're trapped. A ward of the state.

[Hyperion]

Read the comments. It seems that most everyone knows someone who is scamming the system. There are a lot of young able bodied people who are receiving lots of government benefits.

I bet its more like half of those receiving benefits could work some type of job if they wanted to. But they know they can do just as well or better living off of other peoples taxes while not working at all.

[Paul.]

There are a lot of young able bodied people who are receiving lots of government benefits.

Observe your local grocery store's Handicapped parking spaces. Then observe the spry, fleet-footed people with "Handicapped disabled placards" dashing into the store.

[sarcasmic]

For a while my mother had one of those for when she carted her elderly mother around. One time she was going to use it with me in the car, but not her mother. I wouldn't have it. Made her park in a regular spot.

[Banjos]

And here I am, 7 months pregnant walking across a parking lot while carrying a 16 pound infant like a sucker.

[fish]

+1 Simpsons reference

[PapayaSF]

The lure of the best parking spots, for free, for the rest of your life has got to be strong. In SF at least they don't even have to feed meters. Large areas are mostly filled all day with cars (almost always really nice ones) with disabled placards.

[Paul.]

Large areas are mostly filled all day with cars (almost always really nice ones) with disabled placards.

Same here in Seattle (which has maybe 65% the difficult parking situation that I've experienced in SF).

I had to get some documents from city hall a few months ago, so I parked on the street, fed the meter, and started walking down the street.

As I gazed in each car, I noticed a lack of parking meter sticker on the window (a system we use here in Seattle).

Disabled Placard, disabled placard, disabled placard, disabled placard, disabled placard, disabled placard, disabled placard *deep breath*, disabled placard, disabled placard, disabled placard, disabled placard.

I stopped counting after 20 cars.

[Paul.]

Marilyn Zahm: If the American public knew what was going on in our system, half would be outraged and the other half would apply for benefits.

Half DO know what's going on, and half have applied for benefits. 22 libertarians are outraged.

[Pro Libertate]

Yes, this is a growing problem. How many people on any kind of welfare actually need it? I'd say forms have better track records than others but, taken as a whole, the scammers probably constitute a majority by now. But, at least, they vote "correctly."

[Paul.]

Disclosure:

My sister-- who is a partial parapalegic (arguably actually disabled) has been receiving SS payments for years, and her husband makes a phat paycheck. She's capable of working, but doesn't for fear of disrupting that sweet, free SS money.

And who can blame her. Your choice:

1. Sit in a cubicle all day under flourescent lights dealing with bullshit office politics (work prestige!)

2. Pick up a cheque at the mailbox.

How many of us who don't exactly love LOVE LOVE what we do at work all day wouldn't choose #2?

[sarcasmic]

Especially when the monetary difference between #1 and #2 isn't that much. I mean, why work forty hours for additional fifty bucks a week? The choice is entirely rational.

[sarcasmic]

That and doesn't SS come with medical insurance that a person would lose if they got a job?

[Paul.]

Not sure about that, but my sister is of course covered under her husband's insurance.

SS disability is a nice bump in cash where one member of the family earns enough salary where the second doesn't "have to work".

[Pro Libertate]

I've mentioned this before, but my wife has observed that a large percentage of the homeschool moms she interacts with are financed in part by various forms of welfare. These are, as far as I've heard, all able-bodied and even educated women. From what I can tell, they're using welfare as a supplemental income, not out of strict need.

The rest of the population is, of course, those affluent enough to live off of one spouse's income.

[Banjos]

"a large percentage of the homeschool moms she interacts with are financed in part by various forms of welfare"

It's hard to be mad at them when they are paying property taxes for educational services that they don't use. I personally would never do it, but I struggle to find outrage.

[Pro Libertate]

They're taking in a whole lot more than their property taxes, not to mention that more than one is in Section 8 housing (which does not resemble Good Times, even a little bit, at least from the small sample size my wife has observed).

[SugarFree]

The Gawkerites were crowing about the Swiss voting on a guaranteed minimum income and how awesome and enlightened and that people who could work wouldn't sit around just collecting their $2800 a month.

They were impervious to the brave souls who waded in there to explain that if you have a job that pays you $3000 a month after taxes, you are putting on a shirt, going to work and putting up with all the attendant bullshit for $1.25 per hour.

[Hyperion]

you are putting on a shirt, going to work and putting up with all the attendant bullshit for $1.25 per hour

And there aren't many employers that will let you waddle around in your pajamas all day.

[SugarFree]

Mine probably would, but my dingus has a tendency to flop out of pajamas and they aren't going to put up with that.

[Hugh Akston]

How are they going to stop it? Are they going to have a workstudy student at the ready to stuff it back in when it jangles loose?

[SugarFree]

You can't get that level of diligence from a work/study.

[Banjos]

Todd Flanders: "Daddy, what do taxes pay for?"

Ned Flanders: "Oh, why, everything! Policemen, trees, sunshine! And let's not forget the folks who just don't feel like working, God bless 'em!"

[Banjos]

$2800 a month is $16 an hour. Are they trying to completely destroy small businesses?

[Brett L]

They also got a referendum on the ballot to limit CEO pay to the lowest paid worker in the company. My understanding is that 100k Swiss signatures can put anything on the ballot. Whether or not it will pass seems to be a different matter. But I do hope y'all get out of California when they try to out crazy the Swiss on bad economic policy.

[Banjos]

The problem is sloop's older children. He was forced to move out to CA because his ex's husband was transferred here. I moved to this shit hole from AZ for him. Hopefully, the economic shit won't hit the fan for at least another 4 1/2 years (when his son graduates from high school).

[Lady Bertrum]

This story about Cali was dressing as hell.

From the story:

At the same time, the Golden State now suffers the highest level of poverty in the country?23.5 percent compared to 16 percent nationally?worse than long-term hard luck cases like Mississippi. It is also now home to roughly one-third of the nation's welfare recipients, almost three times its proportion of the nation's population.

[SugarFree]

Isn't a GMI of $16 per the equivalent of making the minimum wage $16 per? Accept, of course, you normally don't get minimum wage for the simple act of breathing.

[SugarFree]

Except. Stupid multitasking.

[BakedPenguin]

It kind of works with "accept", too, although that message is already understood around here.

[Lady Bertrum]

They are depressing, right? (typos, I mean).

[SugarFree]

They are depressing, right? (typos, I mean).

I figured that was just some hip new lingo.

[Lady Bertrum]

I figured that was just some hip new lingo

No. I just went full potato.

[robc]

If you do it via negative income tax, it could work and not be entirely destructive to small business and etc.

[Hyperion]

I don't really love what I do at work, but I still wouldn't choose option 2.

[Paul.]

The older I get, the less I even like what I do. I wouldn't choose #2 because I can't. I'm a single dad.

But if I finally achieve my life-long dream of marrying a hot, sexually frustrated high-earning ambitious workaholic woman who travels 40 weeks a year, I'm choosing option two. I've got this pain in my left knee that isn't going away.

[fish]

Never stop chasing those dreams Paul!

[Suthenboy]

Good for you Hyperion.

I have rheumatoid arthritis. People give me shit all the time because I refuse to go on disability. I dont want to have anything to do with those motherfuckers, not even if they pay me.

[Pro Libertate]

It's bad enough that our system creates disincentives for productivity, but now we have a huge number of incentives against productivity.

It's insane and cannot end well.

[Hyperion]

A big part of the problem is that once any agency or bureau is created, it's mission becomes to grow and expand and get a bigger budget. So now you have these safety net programs who want more people to sign up so that they can expand.

We'll be to the point in the not too distant future that the incentive for most people to work, will be gone. And what will the feds do with this problem? Tax, tax, tax, tax, and tax some more. And thereby they will destroy the will of those who are still in the workplace, to remain in it.

[Pro Libertate]

It's an obvious disaster, coming our way. Not like we don't know where this will lead. Yet we're still driving in the same direction.

[Hyperion]

And a large majority of our politicians only goal now is to loot as much as they can for themselves before the economy collapses.

[Pro Libertate]

Yes, isn't it great that we've put our worst and dumbest in power over of all?

[Pro Libertate]

Over us all, that is.

[Hyperion]

It's a sad fact that it's usually the worst and the dumbest who seek positions of power. And the stupid voters that keep electing them, will make sure that this trend is not reversed without one hell of a fight from the rest of us.

[Pro Libertate]

Which is why, when you give the worst and dumbest power over you, you fucking limit that power and keep it limited. Maybe that can't be done and every conceivable system is doomed, but just waving as the idiots seize more and more power and operate with fewer and fewer limits is suicidal. We will fail because of this. It's not a question of whether anymore but of when.

[Ken Shultz]

"How many of us who don't exactly love LOVE LOVE what we do at work all day wouldn't choose #2?"

I would lose my mind with option 2, and I've worked my ass off to get into a position where I have opportunities to make a hell of a lot more than SS will ever pay.

If I couldn't work my way into those opportunities anymore because I was physically disabled, that would be one of the worst parts about being physically disabled.

Also...Protestant Work Ethic bitches!

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest".

----Ecclesiastes 9:10

To be able to work your ass off and profit from it; and enjoy the fruit of your own labor; and share it with the people you love--that's a gift. It's one of the things that makes life worth living, and depriving yourself of that by choice is like suicide.

[Hyperion]

and depriving yourself of that by choice is like suicide

There will soon be very few who share that sentiment with you. The majority will be those who just want free shit. We're almost there now.

[Paul.]

I've worked my ass off for 27 years while surrounded by people getting free shit and being indignant about it. I'm done. Where the tit at?

[Ken Shultz]

Find a way to work for yourself.

I know a guy that's worked his ass off like that, too.

He's building himself a homestead up around the mountains in Utah. He's gonna raise chickens, grow some stuff, raise goats. He's got some creeks and ponds nearby that are full of fish. He spends a lot of time up in the wilderness. He learned how to hunt.

He used to be a banker. His dreams changed over time. But it's still about working his ass off and enjoying the fruit of his labor.

Anyway, feeding off the teat of government won't let you enjoy the fruit of your own labor, either.

I've talked to a lot of union people. I used to live in a neighborhood where most of the people were on welfare. I grew up in DC, around a bunch of government employees. All of those groups of people were miserable, and most of them didn't even know it.

I'm glad I don't have to spend much time around people like that anymore, and I'd hate to ever have to be one of them. I'd hate to see that happen to you, too.

Maybe look for some new opportunities, Paul--you can find something to get excited about. Maybe look in other countries, too. The world's full of opportunities, and it's a shame that so many Americans are turning their backs on them.

[Hyperion]

He's gonna raise chickens, grow some stuff, raise goats. He's got some creeks and ponds nearby that are full of fish. He spends a lot of time up in the wilderness. He learned how to hunt.

He's now on the list. People can't just go around not depending on the government. It would be anarchy!

/the gubmint.

[hotsy totsy]

Plus they'll tax the SHIT out of him.

[Paul.]

Oh, and no offence Ken, but if I didn't have to go into the cube farm and slay dragons all day and soak up all the work prestige, I could find something to do with my time during the day that would give me personal and spiritual satisfaction-- as long as there was a decent amount of money that came with it.

I don't need daily work arguments about routing tables missed deadlines to keep me self-actualized.

[Ken Shultz]

"I could find something to do with my time during the day that would give me personal and spiritual satisfaction-- as long as there was a decent amount of money that came with it.

With it or from it?

I think it's true that there are a lot of people out there who get by fine by being parasites, but I think they have to lie to themselves, extensively, and I think it's much harder for them to keep a handle on that certain something that keeps our lives fun and meaningful.

You can't act like a parasite for very long without feeling like a parasite.

[Paul.]

With it or from it?

Either. For instance, if I won the Power Ball Lottery, I'm probably not going to continue to go into the office.

If I could do the 'do what you love and you'll never have to work another day in your life' thing, that would be extra double awesome.

Of course I'm just joking about the tit. My actual goal in life is to never be on disability, even if I easily qualify for it.

[Ken Shultz]

"If I could do the 'do what you love and you'll never have to work another day in your life' thing, that would be extra double awesome."

Most people end up doing stuff like that because they had no other choice.

I met a lot of expats in the Yucatan like that. They lost their job in the states, and/or their wife divorced them and took half of everything...

So, they went somewhere they could live really cheap, and they found that you could buy a small hotel on the beach in the Yucatan for not a whole lot!

Most of us could make choices like that if we wanted to, but we just don't want to until we don't have the choice to keep doing what we were doing anymore.

I guess that's what creative destruction is all about.

[Hyperion]

You can't act like a parasite for very long without feeling like a parasite.

I think you are really underestimating the entitlement mindedness of a lot of Americans.

[Ken Shultz]

They feel like parasites, and it makes them miserable.

Because they feel like parasites, they hate people who aren't parasites. They hate wealthy people. They hate entrepreneurs...

You didn't build that!

[Ayn Random Variation]

I'm surprised that this would surprise anyone. I know dozens of people on disability who are fine, including one I regularly play handball with and another a guy on my pool team.

But I live in an urban part of Jersey, so maybe it's not so prevalent elsewhere.

[Suthenboy]

No, it is that way everywhere. I know a few too. One guy goes elk hunting out west every year, and spends all of his time here hunting as well.

[Hyperion]

I'm guessing that it's rampant everywhere. I know a couple of families in different states who have been on every type of government assistance available, for years, and they have no intention of even looking for work. Whenever they want more money, they just have another kid. There is nothing wrong with either couple, they are young and have no conditions at all that would keep them from working. They just don't want to work, free shit is obviously better than work, and our government is actively encouraging this type of behavior. It's a sickness that will doom our economy in the end.

That coupled with the destruction of the market based economy. It's just like that story about the so called 'business' people who want to get rid of Amash so they can engage in more cronyism and get their competitors shut down by the government.

[Pro Libertate]

I bet if you polled most people not on public assistance, they'd assume that all welfare is limited, in scope and in time. That's clearly not the case.

[Hyperion]

And evil Republicans want to take away our safety net and make poor children starve. This line of BS seems to just keep working for the Dems.

[Lady Bertrum]

Something I worry about is when the tit actually does run dry -which may happen soon - what are these people gonna do? Starve? Many have years of stored fat, but eventually, they'll need food and shelter. They have no skills and are frequently in poor (if not disabled) health, and have been conditioned into learned helplessness. Those scooters aren't really optimal transportation for rioting.

[Hyperion]

You're right, a lot of these people are totally incapable of survival on their own. I don't know what the answer is. Of course, I think the optimal solution is to get them to work, but I doubt that most of them are capable of it, unless we somehow create a lot of jobs that allows one to sit around in their pajamas all day watching tv and eating.

[BakedPenguin]

Ironically, the one person I know on SSD has a legitimately messed up back. I guess I should get out more.

[Hyperion]

Apparently, eating to the point that you are so morbidly obese that you can no longer walk, is one of the biggest qualifiers for getting entitled.

[Zeb]

Simpsons did it.

[neoteny]

an outsized number of claims and some questionable medical evidence was being submitted by Eric Conn, a flamboyant attorney

Nomen est omen.

[Suthenboy]

It seems impossible that even the most diehard supporters of Obama cant see what a petulant shit he is. How far does the guy have to go before they will admit.....geez, what am I saying? I forgot the golden rule: The left NEVER argues in good faith. EVER.

Odd that Tony, Bo Cara, and Shreek are not contributing to this thread.

[Hyperion]

His core of true believers will cheer on anything he does, no matter how downright evil or destructive it is.

He could light kittens on fire on national TV, and say that's what he always does for fun, and they would convince themselves that he did it for a good reason.

[fish]

Odd that Tony, Bo Cara, and Shreek are not contributing to this thread.

Even they need to be selective when choosing their fights.

[Hyperion]

If there's a global warming thread, Tony is a sure bet to show. He needs to tell us global warming infidels that he agrees with the scientists, who agree with him 100% and that if we don't stop it, his master is coming to get us with tanks and missiles.

[Smilin' Joe Fission]

I especially enjoyed Tony telling me that engineers are not scientists. The engineering degree I have says Applied Science on it, if I`m not mistaken.

I studied 90% math/science course in my degree (which is much more intens,e in terms of project requirements and course load, than a science major), it's just that those math/science courses are also geared toward applying scientific theory towards actual profitable production of something.

But, Tony is right, I have no basis for questioning man made climate change because I don't have a 4 year biology degree. When will us libertarians learn that only the left can understand the neuances of science and economics?

[Hyperion]

I have a compsci degree, but Tony informed me that since it's not a Masters, that it's not a real degree.

Funny thing is that I have a very good job while Tony is a permanent resident of his mummies basement.

[Smilin' Joe Fission]

I wonder if my Masters degree in nuclear engineering would satisfy Tony's qualification list for the title of scientist? Probably not, Tony has negative emotional responses to words like nuclear or radiation.

But you forget that Tony is a Progressive so he automatically is more enlightened and knowledgable than us prons. In Tony's world, status is worth much more than merit.

[hotsy totsy]

In Tony's world, status is worth much more than merit.

That's most progressives mindset, sadly enough.

[robc]

Im not sure I would hire someone with a masters in CS. A bachelors is bad enough.

[Zeb]

I would have to agree that engineers are not necessarily scientists (though there is a lot of overlap). Engineers need to know a lot about science, but that is not the same a being a scientist and actually doing science. Nor is applying science the same as doing science.

Of course, being a scientist doesn't give you special privilege to comment on scientific issues in fields that aren't your specialty.

[Smilin' Joe Fission]

There is enough overlap that it is a useless argument and, in Tony's context, meaningless. A scientist does not hold a license on scientific theory and therefore a license to make reputable comments on that subject field.

On your other point, I think you can comment on scientific issues and not be an expert, it is just that that is all only your opinion. Tony approaches it as if what he says is fact not up for debate because he heard that there is a consensus of "scientists".

[Zeb]

You really think Bo Cara belongs in that list? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like he is a legit libertarian leaner, at least, who just likes to show off his new lawyer tricks and argue both sides of things.

[Hyperion]

The thing about Bo Cara is that he has a tendency to defend libertarianism and the actions of the lefties both at the same time. It seems sort of contradictory at times.

[Zeb]

Sometimes I don't know what to make of him either. But I really don't get the troll vibe. I think he is just someone who likes sophistry and rhetorical games and sees himself as something of a devil's advocate.

[robc]

He is blue Tulpa.

Understand that and he makes sense.

[Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!]

Seconded.

[SugarFree]

Blupa.

[DesigNate]

Is that pronounced Bluhpa or Bloopa?

[Banjos]

I second this new nickname and would add that "Tulpy-Poo" be Tulpa's official nickname.

[Tulpa (LAOL-VA)]

Listen Banjos, I know he's not able to give you everything you need, but in the interests of your family I'm going to have to walk away. Sorry, not all our dreams can come true.

[Zeb]

I guess I can see that. I still say he is far less irritating and obnoxious than Tulpa.

[Tulpa (LAOL-VA)]

Oddly, a couple of months ago I was considered to be on Team Blue too. It's pretty rough switching back and forth, especially when you're not actually changing your positions.

[Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!]

At the gym?!