Lindsey Graham Wants U.S. Citizen Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Held As an "enemy combatant for intelligence gathering purposes"

Bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev may be a killer, but he's also entitled to due process.

Lindsey Graham's Twitter Profile

Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev became a U.S. citizen last year. Regardless, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC.) would like to see Tsarnaev captured and held "as [an] enemy combatant for intelligence gathering purposes." 

If captured, I hope Administration will at least consider holding the Boston suspect as enemy combatant for intelligence gathering purposes.

— Lindsey Graham (@GrahamBlog) April 19, 2013

The last thing we may want to do is read Boston suspect Miranda Rights telling him to "remain silent."

— Lindsey Graham (@GrahamBlog) April 19, 2013

If the #Boston suspect has ties to overseas terror organizations he could be treasure trove ofinformation.

— Lindsey Graham (@GrahamBlog) April 19, 2013

The Obama Administration needs to be contemplating these issues and should not rush into a bad decision.

— Lindsey Graham (@GrahamBlog) April 19, 2013

The contempt doesn't end there: "This is Exhibit A of why the homeland is the battlefield," Graham tells Jennifer Rubin. 

Comments

[The Immaculate Trouser]

Of course he does.

[andrew79]

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[Jon Lester]

khimki forest dot com

You will care.

[Rights-Minimalist Autocrat]

Obama seems to have taken his advice.

[hamilton]

Well that just makes sense. I mean, the constitution has been demonstrated to apply to all of us equally all the time unless it's Really Really Important.

[Auric Demonocles]

That part is in the text, it's just hard to read because the ink faded since it's over a hundred years old.

[forestgombosi39]

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[Fist of Etiquette]

Idiot.

[Jordan]

No slippery slope here. What a piece of shit.

[Sevo]

Slope, hell! Cliff.

[Gindjurra]

Not only is the slope slippery, he's skiing down it.

[Caleb Turberville]

Yawn. Lindsey Graham gonna Lindsey Graham.

[Jgalt1975]

I think I once saw that written on the wall of a highway rest-stop men's room.

[BigT]

What?? No water-boarding?? Candy-ass Graham!!

[Episiarch]

Due process? What the hell is that?

[Caleb Turberville]

The most inconvenient part of the Constitution for statists.

[Rights-Minimalist Autocrat]

Dude, it's totally constitutional!

[Paul.]

Something that was crushed beneath the Commerce clause.

I'm sure those pressure cookers were transported across state lines.

[BakedPenguin]

No, tptb decidednow it's now "do process" As in "do process this person's jail entry paperwork.

[I Dug It]

I Plebnista.

[Jon Lester]

"Freedom" is worship word. We do not speak it.

[NeonCat]

Isn't it wonderful the World's Greatest Deliberative Body has such intellectual giants in it?

[A Serious Man]

What a coincidence, I want Lindsey Graham held indefinitely away from power for *lack* of intelligence.

[Nikki makes the sign of a tsp]

I thought we already decided it was chill to do this with Jose Padilla?

[forestgombosi39]

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[The Late P Brooks]

I want Lindsey Graham apprehended by the men in the white coats, stuffed into a straitjacket, and thrust into a padded cell.

[Episiarch]

This applies to Lindsey in a just world.

[Heroic Mulatto]

If you're going to bring up "a just world", it needs more death porn.

[A Serious Man]

You know Riggs, this would have made an excellent link for the PM links. Is that what we're doing now? Teasing out the PM links with these one sentence posts?

[LTC(ret) John]

MOAR PAGE VIEWS THIS WAY!

[LTC(ret) John]

Isn't the remaining brother a US citizen or at least a PR? Sorry Lindsey, no can do.

[generic Brand]

Didn't they just sign the NDAA that will allow them to hold terrorist suspects indefinitely, regardless of whether they are US citizens?

INSIDE JOB!!!!

[mad libertarian guy]

Yes.

And the one man who tried to stop it has been demonized by both the right and left. It's fucking sick.

[db]

P.S. there is nothing to P.M. Link so suck it, commenters.

[Cheradenine Zakalwe]

Slow news day, it happens.

[SIV]

I can look up the story but shouldn't a "professional journalist" like Mike Riggs offer some sort of link to his source?

Graham's Twitter account maybe?

[SIV]

What no mea culpa and a thank you?
It was the scare quotes wasn't it?

[Irish]

Personally, and maybe this is just me, but I yearn to live in a world where we do away with such bourgeois nonsense as 'due process' and just beat suspects wish socks filled with batteries.

[Irish]

With.

[Enough About Palin]

So "with wish socks" then?

[BakedPenguin]

Damn it. I could really use a wish sock.

[Sevo]

And an edit feature.

[Hugh Akston]

Lindsey Graham is a colossal piece of shit.

[Pro Libertate]

An American citizen commits a crime in the U.S. Not sure how that doesn't trigger all of the normal due process rights. And that's not wussy talk--that's free people talk.

I'll let Captain Kirk say the rest:

Among my people, we carry many such words as this from many lands, many worlds. Many are equally good and are as well respected, but wherever we have gone, no words have said this thing of importance in quite this way.

Look at these three words written larger than the rest, with a special pride never written before, or since, tall words proudly saying, "We the People". That which you call Ee'd Plebnista, was not written for the chiefs of kings, or the warriors or the rich or the powerful, but for ALL the people!

Down the centuries, you have slurred the meaning of the words, "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty, to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution".

These words and the words that follow, were not written only for the Yangs, but for the Kohms as well! They must apply to everyone, or they mean nothing!

[Episiarch]

Brain? Brain? What is brain?

[Pro Libertate]

That was earlier in the episode, when Spock got horny.

[A Serious Man]

I thought Spock got horny in that episode when he got high on spores and smacked Kirk around.

[Pro Libertate]

No, that was an allergic reaction.

[Enough About Palin]

I thought Spock got horny when he shared consciousness with McCoy's head nurse.

[Episiarch]

No. Perhaps you're thinking of my one man show about Vincent van Spock--uh, uh, I mean van Gogh! Damn!

[Pro Libertate]

You should do a one-man show that's Spock doing all of his lines. Alone.

[SIV]

Fuck the Kohms

[Pro Libertate]

Okay, you need to go rewatch that episode.

[SIV]

You're probably a Villager-sympathizer too.

[Tulpa (LAOL-VA)]

Picard would kick Kirk's ass. With the Magna Carta.

[Pro Libertate]

You are insane.

[Heroic Mulatto]

OT: Have the Gregory Brothers come out as Ron Paul fans?

Or are they just for liberty when it comes to certain chemicals?

[mad libertarian guy]

I have heard from a VERY reliable source that Lindsey Graham is a sheep fucker.

[juris imprudent]

I would be happy if he would only fuck sheep and not insist on also fucking the Constitution.

[Rrabbit]

Sheep would not want to have Lindsey Graham fuck them.

[JohnD]

and it is making you jealous?

[Caleb Turberville]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BBhNkywMJY

Patton Oswalt will filibuster until we have PM links. Mr. Oswalt, you have the floor.

[Paul.]

You can say that again.

[Caleb Turberville]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BBhNkywMJY

Patton Oswalt will filibuster until we have PM links. Mr. Oswalt, you have the floor.

[Caleb Turberville]

He will continue to filibuster until we also have the ability to delete duplicate posts.

[WC Varones]

Lindsey fantasizes about putting Tsarnaev in a gimp suit.

[Apatheist ?_??]

Traci Hayner Vanover ?@promodiva 31m
@GrahamBlog Frankly, I find the discussion of any suspected terrorists having any "rights" at all rather abhorrent.

*barf*

[Cavpitalist]

Traci Hayner Vanover ?@promodiva 31m
@GrahamBlog Frankly, I find the discussion of any suspected terrorists having any "rights" at all rather abhorrent.

I suspect that this person is a terrorist.

[Joe M]

What an age we live in, when due process can be brushed aside by senatorial fiat!

[Ken Shultz]

"If captured, I hope Administration will at least consider holding the Boston suspect as enemy combatant for intelligence gathering purposes."

The lesson to take away from this is that if the president really has been given the authority to decide which American citizens are and aren't entitled to their most basic rights, then that authority should be taken away from the president immediately.

[Nazdrakke]

That particular Horseman left the barn quite a while ago.

[Ken Shultz]

I think it's basic to the AUMF. If Obama personally determines you're part of Al Qaeda (the organization responsible for 9/11), then he has the authority to use a drone on you or stick a knife in your gut and twist if he wants to.

Whether he has the right to do those things is another question entirely, but he does have the authority from Congress to do so, and we need to take that authority away. If all we did was add a sunset clause on the AUMF for some ten years hence, that would be a big improvement...

I'd rather that authority disappeared years ago, but surely it needs to die someday.

[HazelMeade]

Let's pray Lindsay Graham never gets elected President.

[Ken Shultz]

That's a scary thought, Hazel.

[Jerryskids]

He gets to decide which Americans are True Americans.

[Stilgar]

the lesson from this is to NEVER elect fuckwads like Graham or McPain.

[JohnD]

so you prefer Obama? Fool.

[Joe M]

This is obviously not a surprise, considering his outrage over Rand Paul's filibuster.

[JMos]

I'm torn over whether Graham or Feinstein is the most loathsome person in the senate.

[Tony]

Shut up you old queen.

[Ken Shultz]

Your bigoted use of slurs against LGBT is revolting.

[Tony]

An old queen like Graham would likely be more offended by the "old" part.

[Ken Shultz]

If Lindsay Graham is gay, what's it matter to you?

Are you proud of being a homophobe or something?

[Tony]

Lindsay Graham is obviously gay, and it doesn't matter to me. I'm sorry you can't use the word nigger in polite company but your stupid grievances aren't my problem.

[Ken Shultz]

Oh, it's a free society Tony. I can use any language I please!

I choose not to use bigoted language--because I'm not a bigot.

If you choose to fault someone for being gay, then guess what that makes you look like?

Not that it would surprise me to find a bigoted progressive--especially one who refuses to admit that Rosa Parks had a right to sit in the front of a public bus despite being black. ...especially a progressive who refuses to admit that Jewish people had rights during the Holocaust--even if the government refused to recognize them.

You're a bigot in every way I can tell, Tony. If you can use bigoted language in any company with ease--that certainly doesn't prove you're not a bigot.

Your apparent bigotry against LGBT is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Ballz]

LGBT is a confusing term. personally I don't have problem with cigar smokers as long as they don't foul my dinner.

[RyanXXX]

I'm with Tony on this one. Lindsay is a closet-case if there ever was one

[Ken Shultz]

That may or may not be true.

...not that I care one way or the other.

Tony apparently thinks being gay is something Lindsay Graham should be ashamed of.

There's no reason not to call Tony out for being a bigot--if he's saying that being gay is something to be ashamed of.

Especially considering that Tony is a liberal or progressive or whatever the fuck he is--Tony's something that isn't supposed to be bigoted against gay people, that's for sure!

[Tony]

On the contrary I think we gays are a superior race.

[Ballz]

I think the term you were seeking is "lesbian". Much more specific.

[HazelMeade]

Maybe we should just assassinate the kid with a drone.
The president has already claimed the authority. Why not?

[Baal]

Speaking of drones, I was a little slow on the uptake on this one:

Deer population to be thinned by U.S. drones

[Jon Lester]

Is this the plan? Roll back our 2A rights so we can't even hunt anymore, then use that as a convenient pretext to introduce armed drones into domestic airspace?

[Tulpa (LAOL-VA)]

Lindsey Graham has probably been drooling constantly since Monday.

[Adam.]

Rich old white dude wants to "oust" republican senators.

"We will employ the most sophisticated social media campaign ever built to remove these people from office," Conway told The San Francisco Chronicle. "Our Congress has ceased to be representative. It is up to the citizens to remove those people who don't represent them."

[Paul.]

When I woke up to a very angry president and a very angry mainstream media, I didn't know what had happened, exactly, but I knew that my losing streak had just ended on something.

[Ken Shultz]

People in San Francisco genuinely believe that their concerns are priorities are representative of the rest of the country's concerns and priorities...

I shit you not!

The first rule of Progressive Club is that the American people want what the progressives want.

The second rule of Progressive Club is that when the American people don't want what the progressives want, see Rule #1.

[Tony]

And people in Bumfuck, Mississippi don't think exactly the same thing?

[Irish]

No, actually they don't. When someone in North Dakota wants his gun rights protected, his senator says 'gun rights are very important to my constituents.'

A progressive, on the other hand, lies and claims that everyone in America is on his side.

It is in no way comparable.

[Sevo]

Tony| 4.19.13 @ 5:58PM |#
"And people in Bumfuck, Mississippi don't think exactly the same thing?"

So progs like you are almost as good as the people in Bumfuck, Mississippi? Is that what you're saying, shithead?
Cite please. I'd say that's an insulting to those folks.

[Zombie Jimbo]

At least the Bumfuckians (I won't call them Bumfuckers) know what the coastal elites think afeel and want, because unless they never watch TV, read newspapers or use the internet, they have the progressive views shoved down their throats 24/7.

The media, and beltway folks don't understand the flyover folks, because they don't care about their opinions, because those people are beneath them.

[Sevo]

"The media, and beltway folks don't understand the flyover folks, because they don't care about their opinions, because those people are beneath them."

Similarly, shithead and his proggy buddies presume to tell us what libertarian people believe.
He knows, since a school buddy at a kegger told him he'd read a review of Atlas Shrugged!

[Tony]

There is no special wisdom that comes from living in the middle of nowhere. People in cities tend to be more educated and thus more worth listening to. If you think San Franciscans have more of a desire to impose their worldview on everyone than the rural Christianists of Bumfuck, then you're an idiot.

[Baal]

The vast majority of people any place in the country aren't worth listening to.
Most of us rarely have a truly original thought beyond perhaps whatever our narrow area of workplace expertise happens to be. The difference is that too many people in the city suffer the delusion that they've got something worthwhile to say.

[Sevo]

Tony| 4.19.13 @ 7:09PM |#
"There is no special wisdom that comes from living in the middle of nowhere. People in cities tend to be more educated and thus more worth listening to."

Shithead tried to bypass the comments and then slip in the innuendo that shithead is somehow more intelligent than those folks in Bumfuck. Absent anything like evidence.
And, in fact, delivered with this gem from a guy who claims to be an editor:
"more worth listening to"
Way to go, shithead!

[Ken Shultz]

"There is no special wisdom that comes from living in the middle of nowhere. People in cities tend to be more educated and thus more worth listening to."

Check it out everybody...

The progressive commenter leading the charge for the poor in the class war--is a snob!

[dinkster]

Poor people aren't worth listening to. What didn't you understand?

[Gorilla tactics]

Yeah cuz highly educated never fucked anything up *cough* Eugenics

[Ballz]

"People in cities tend to be more educated and thus more worth listening to."

sheesh. grammar checker, dude.
Where does Lindsay Graham live?

[Ken Shultz]

"And people in Bumfuck, Mississippi don't think exactly the same thing?"

Why would you denigrate the people of Mississippi by assuming they would name a city "Bumfuck".

And again, today, what's with the use of words that are denigrating to LGBT coming from you? Your comfortable use of homophobic slurs is appalling.

[Tony]

"Old queen" is not a slur, plus I am gay so I can use homophobic slurs if I want to. Talk about not understanding how different cultures work...

[?J?? de ?guila]

Okay, all that proves is that rainbow nation can support warmongers in the White House the same as can old-white-fuckers club Lindsey Graham. You are two of a kind when it comes to that -- the merging of disparate cultures.

[Ken Shultz]

No way I'd tolerate someone in my office calling someone else an "old queen".

Rappers may think using the "n-word" is okay if you're black--using in-group language like that in out-group setting and expecting to get away with it is blatantly stupid.

You think I'm gonna throw the n-word around in a general news text forum like this--and then cry foul when someone calls me out for being a racist?

That would be stupid.

In the meantime, why would a gay man fault Lindsay Graham for being gay? Seems like some pretty self-loathing behavior from where I'm standing.

[Tony]

I'm not faulting him for being gay, I'm faulting him for being a gay hypocrite and a pathetic liar about everything. He no more believes we should ship this guy to Gitmo anymore than he likes eating pussy. He just wants to win his next primary.

[RyanXXX]

Oh get off your high horse, Ken. Of all the things to be "appalled" by in this post, you chosoe Tony's "slur" (statement of fact) against LINDSEY GRAHAM??!

[Ken Shultz]

Why should we tolerate bigotry from progressives?

Aren't you sick of seeing progressive call libertarians and conservatives out for being bigoted--when we're not?

Why NOT call out progressives when they're being bigots?!

Maybe the reason libertarians and conservatives get unfairly maligned as bigots is because when we see bigotry coming from the left, we almost never make an issue of it.

If Tony's being a filthy, disgusting bigot? Then that's what I'm going to call him.

Meanwhile, whatever I despise Lindsey Graham for, it sure as hell won't ever be because of what he likes to do with his Johnson. It'll always be 'cause of what he'd like to do with my rights.

[Chris Mallory]

Mr. Evans: You ever been to Lawrence KS young man?

Jack Bull Chiles: [scoffs] No, I reckon not Mr. Evans. I don't believe I'd be too welcome in Lawrence.

Mr. Evans: I didn't think so. Before this war began, my business took me there often. As I saw those northerners build that town, I witnessed the seeds of our destruction being sown.

Jack Bull Chiles: The foundin' of that town was truly the beginnin' of the Yankee invasion.

Mr. Evans: I'm not speakin' of numbers, nor even abolitionist trouble makin'. It was the schoolhouse. Before they built their church, even, they built that schoolhouse. And they let in every tailor's son... and every farmer's daughter in that country.

Jack Bull Chiles: Spellin' won't help you hold a plow any firmer. Or a gun either.

Mr. Evans: No, it won't Mr. Chiles. But my point is merely that they rounded every pup up into that schoolhouse because they fancied that everyone should think and talk the same free-thinkin' way they do with no regard to station, custom, propriety. And that is why they will win. Because they believe everyone should live and think just like them. And we shall lose because we don't care one way or another how they live. We just worry about ourselves.

Jack Bull Chiles: Are you sayin', sir, that we fight for nothin'?

Mr. Evans: Far from it, Mr. Chiles. You fight for everything that we ever had, as did my son. It's just that... we don't have it anymore.

[?J?? de ?guila]

Rich old warmongering bitches like torture advocate Diane Feinstein and war-profiteering Nancy Pelosi much better represent the repressed totalitarian sensibilities of the interventionist Bay-area progressives.

[Sevo]

Ken Shultz| 4.19.13 @ 5:46PM |#
"People in San Francisco genuinely believe that their concerns are priorities are representative of the rest of the country's concerns and priorities..."

A majority of people in SF actually believe that hag Pelosi is worthy of something other than a compost heap.

[Ken Shultz]

They think the rest of country wants to ban Happy Meals.

[space junk]

1. I am surprised they didn't take the suspects out with a drone already.

2. Graham is an embarrassment from Hell. The less he talks, the better off the country is.

3. Meanwhile, our friends on Capitol Hill are trying to get CISPA through...

[DRM]

So, at the Aurora shooting, we had a guy who supposedly dyed his hair and called himself the Joker show up at a showing of a Batman movie.

Now, we have a bombing at a marathon by a guy actually named "Joker".

Is it all just a coincidence that this happened after DC abandoned the Comics Code Authority?

Dr. Fredric Wertham warned us!

[Invisible Finger]

Lindsey Graham doesn't believe in the U.S. Constiution and therefor should be held as an enemy combatant. Thoguh I doubt we'll get any intelligence out of him.

[Kurbster]

only a matter of time before this slimeball sack of shit crawled out from under his rock.

The emotions I get just looking at this fucker's face...

[nomoss]

Ten years later... "US citizen and former senator, Lindsey Graham, held as enemy combatant for intelligence gathering purposes." See how that works, Graham cracker.

[?J?? de ?guila]

The Obama/Graham police state won't advise him he has the right to remain silent, it will silence him -- forever.

[Gamblorr]

I have a theory that one day there will be a version of Godwin's Law that pertains to comparisons to Lindsey Graham. Not that the man is anything like Hitler, it's just unbelievable how consistently he is a parody of himself.

[Kurbster]

you sure about that?

Hitler didn't believe in due process, either

[Gamblorr]

Granted they have a lot in common, but I wasn't looking to Godwin the thread in a post where I mention Godwin's Law. When I say he isn't "anything like Hitler", I mean not on the same level. He's an evil, despicable man nonetheless.

[Sevo]

"When I say he isn't "anything like Hitler", I mean not on the same level."

No Enabling Act. Give him a chance.

[An0nB0t]

The bad news is that Graham has no respect for the civil right to due process.

The good news is that Lindsay Graham, via his fortuitous discovery of the legendary Amulet of Right, has become a seer who can determine an individual's guilt or innocence with a cursory glance of his photo on the boob toob. The other good news is that Graham has used his mystical powers to determine that the Sunil kid who was crucified by the media about 18 hours ago also does not merit due process. In fact, anyone who the magical tv set condemns for at least an hour is guilty beyond all redemption and merits neither charges nor trial.

[?J?? de ?guila]

Barack Obama: "Calm down Lindsay, I'm way ahead of you!"

[Eeyore]

I miss-read the article. I thought it said that Lindsay Graham was being held as a suspected enemy combatant. I guess anybody could be a suspect. With a little water boarding we can make anyone confess.

[MissMalevolent]

People need to wake up and start voting third party...Dems and Repubs are clueless.

[Kurbster]

no shit

[Luke6345]

like Clarence said I didnt know that any body able to earn 7467 in one month on the computer. did you read this web link http://www.wow92.com

[Gindjurra]

Ladies and Gentlemen (and all the rest of you), I give you Lindsey Graham, domestic enemy of the constitution.

[sasob]

Here, here!

[squarooticus]

So whenever someone does something bad, we should strip them of their human rights without due process. SOUNDS LEGIT.

[dinkster]

No whenever we THINK someone does something bad, we strip them of rights.

[Meerkatx]

Looks like he will not be read his Miranda rights.

[fishfry]

And what do you know ... the perp's not getting his Miranda rights.

http://www.politico.com/story/.....html?hp=f1

[John C. Randolph]

When is that mealy-mouthed closet case going to figure out that this kind of posturing doesn't make him look butch, it only highlights what a sissy he is.

-jcr

[XM]

We don't know if there are other accomplices involved. Or maybe his brother, who might have received training in Russia, told him about other activities.

We need information from this guy, that's for sure. Did only two of them make the 7 IEDs? Who supplied them with all of the weapons?

If he's working for Al Qaeda, then he's fairly close to being an enemy combatant. I'm not calling for the guy to be tortured, but his civil liberties aren't totally sacrosanct if there is a bigger plot.

If you're ever found working for known terrorists, your citizenship should be CANCELLED. That should end the debate on "What to do if the guy is a citizen". I swore to defend this country when I took my citizenship test. Ridiculous.

[Jon Lester]

I'm sure most of us here love naturalized citizens and greatly appreciate your passion for everything it means to you.

It's a big "if" about whatever connections these boys have. al-Qaeda leadership actually prefer the free-agent types, dumb kids who arrive at a decision to act, for their own reasons, and without traceable links to the "official" organization.

I think I'll just have to disagree that affiliation with any particular organization deserves exemption from due process. We don't do it for, say, La Cosa Nostra, or La Eme. It's less about what anyone deserves, and more about us being better. Dzhokar's life is as good as wasted, anyway.

[DenverJay]

I think setting off a bomb is an act of war. Doesn't the Constitution allow for non-judicial handling of acts of rebellion?
Ahh yes, Sec 9 "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."
Of course, if they catch the guy, is there still a danger? We don't know if the brothers acted alone. As much as I dislike Lindsey Graham, he may be right this time, although not for the reasons he thinks.

[Cavpitalist]

I think setting off a bomb is an act of war.

Yeah, you're wrong.

[DenverJay]

Um, why? If detonating a bomb is not an act of war, then what is? Look, I agree that this whole idea of placing people outside the sphere of Habeas Corpus is disturbing, but the Constitution itself, that Holy Writ that is cited on these comments so much, that document clearly states that individuals at war with the USA need not be granted full Miranda rights. (Yes, I know it was written before the Miranda case was decided by SCOTUS)
I am a Libertarian; I fully believe the current Government has vastly exceeded it's proper place. But I am not, except on my bad days, an anarchist.
Somebody who detonates a bomb on US soil, with the intent of killing US citizens, has committed an act of war against both the government and the PEOPLE of the USA.
QED, this individual has voluntarily ceded the Habeas Corpus rights that the US recognizes for it's citizens. The second that dumbass detonated his bomb, he VOLUNTARILY renounced his citizenship, and the right to ask the government to enforce his rights for him.

[DenverJay]

"ooh look, I hate this country, and it's people: I am going to declare war on them! But if I'm caught, why then I am still a citizen, and demand to be treated as such" What kinda bull is that?
Yes, yes, "innocent until proven guilty", but is there really any doubt that this is the guy?
We are not talking about some shepard in Afghanistan accused with no proof and disappeared to Guantanamo. This is a guy who blew up a bomb, then robbed a store, killed a cop, carjacked somebody, threw explosives at his pursuers, etc.

[dinkster]

Doubt? He might be insane. He might have a brain tumor that is affecting his personality. He might have been forcibly drugged with datura. The fact is, you don't fucking know.

[Gamblorr]

The whole point of due process is to determine his innocence or guilt, and from there to determine the manner in which we will take his rights away as punishment. You're trying to put the cart before the horse.

[An0nB0t]

The second that dumbass detonated his bomb, he VOLUNTARILY renounced his citizenship, and the right to ask the government to enforce his rights for him.

There's a reason why every free-ish society has trials, and this paragraph is why.

One, you don't know that he detonated any bombs, and you don't know any of the circumstances around his flight; all you've heard is what the media and state had to say. There's a reason why we deliberate with trials even when we're 99.9% certain that an individual is guilty.

Two, you're using the words voluntarily and renounce in precisely the opposite of their meaning. Unless I go on record in voluntarily renouncing my citizenship, I haven't voluntarily renounced my citizenship.

And three, and perhaps most importantly, rights are not enforced; they are protected.

[DEATFBIRSECIA]

I want to emphasize what An0nB0t said about DenverJay's ludicrous assertion that the bomber had ceased to have rights by virtue of being accused of committing a violent crime:

"There's a reason why every free-ish society has trials, and this paragraph is why."

DenverJay's sense that the accused bomber "renounced the right to ask the government to enforce his rights for him." is remarkably obtuse, and actually begs the question of whether or not DenverJay understands what rights actually are in the first place.

Anyone who's done even a cursory examination of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights understands that you don't "ask the government to enforce" your rights, those rights are IN FORCE against the government from the outset. Like An0nB0t said, they are protected. And for good reason. If you had to ask the government for those rights, well they wouldn't really be rights now would they? That's right, they would be privileges. We don't have a Bill of Privileges, last I checked.

Sadly, for liberty, DenverJay is just one of many who don't even understand what rights are, much less why they should be protected.

[DenverJay]

Fine, I used the wrong word, we will use "protected".
I know exactly what natural rights are. I have read Hobbs and Locke, among others. And yes, rights are not granted by government, as some body else claimed I said. "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men," is what I agree with.
But the fact is, this WAS an act of war, rebellion, sedition, whatever you want to call it. It was not a normal crime. And in war, 99.9% certain is good enough.
And the US Constitution recognizes that acts of war can be treated different.

[DenverJay]

Actually, I just reread your post. It was you who claimed I don't know what rights are. Look, in a state of nature, we all have unlimited rights. We give some of those up in order to form a Government which protects all people's rights. This guy took back his right to wage war from the government, therefore removing himself from the "deal" that grants war powers to the state. Therefore, the state is no longer obliged to uphold it's end of the deal by protecting his rights.
How is this complicated? Do you think Lincoln should have arrested all the Confederate soldiers and given them a civilian trial?
Instead of "a cursory examination of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights" why not read the whole thing?
Once again, from Article I, Sec 9 "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

[Sevo]

"We give some of those up in order to form a Government which protects all people's rights."

Assertion absent evidence.
Your momma must have said you're smart, but you've yet to show it.

[DenverJay]

All right, you're spouting off on all my comments, but I'm tired and only gonna answer this one.
Yes, my momma did say I was smart, and then I went off and got myself edumacated.
My "assertion absent evidence" is not my assertion. It is the cornerstone of Western democracy. (yes, yes we're a Republic) This assertion has been asserted for thousands of years. The earliest I personally have ran across the idea was in "Antigone" by Sophocles, written around 441 BC.
The specific terminology can be found as far back (again, personal reading only, there may very well be older references) as "Leviathan" by Thomas Hobbes(1651 AD), and his ideas were both expounded on, and argued against, by John Locke in "Two Treatises of Government" (1689)
The later's views heavily influenced the founding fathers, and some of his language was used, almost verbatim, in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America.
Any questions?

[Tony]

Why is detonating a bomb any more an act of war than, say, shooting up a school?

War happens between sovereign countries. We don't gain anything by giving the suspect in this case an out by violating his constitutional rights.

[XM]

If you're conspiring with foreign governments and you shoot up schools or blow up people, that should be considered as a act of war. Doesn't mean we should actually declare war on the nations in response, but that's the way it should be.

If you're working actively with a terrorist organization not affiliated with a state, then you should still be considered as an enemy combatant.

Not all facts are in, and everything so far points to terrorism. I don't have a problem with the police not reading him his Miranda rights if public safety is a concern. If he wants to run his mouth disclose information, well, let him.

Guantanamo bay is not the hell on earth some people think. He'll receive his halal meals, prayer time, and counsel, while we work on him to further information and monitor him to make sure he's not communicating with the wrong people. We're obviously going to charge him with SOMETHING, and if that happens, we probably won't detain him indefinitely.

[Sevo]

"We're obviously going to charge him with SOMETHING, and if that happens, we probably won't detain him indefinitely."

Not sure who this "we" is, but it doesn't include me.

[DenverJay]

Oh, so war cannot be waged against stateless actors, like Al Qaeda?

As for schools, it depends. Is the shooter just a nut job? Or is he making a political statement? I seem to remember another situation involving Chechnya, with terrorists taking over a school. Russia sure considered that an act of war/rebellion, because it was. Blowing up a bomb for political reasons is war.

[Sevo]

"Blowing up a bomb for political reasons is war."

Assertion followed by presumption.
You got nothin', pal.

[Tony]

No, it's terrorism, which should be considered a criminal matter. War is fought between countries, despite George W. Bush's confusing of the matter. But really he was rather an idiot who couldn't use most words right.

[Ballz]

Tony, I think you meant to say, "He don't speak no good English."

Terrorism relates to panic. Please don't.

"What we have here is a complicated three way conundrum." GHWB

[C. S. P. Schofield]

I have a proposal; treat the suspect like a citizen right up until the first time he describes HIMSELF as a soldier (and you have a recording of it). Then take him into court with that recording, and publicly announce that, in view of his announcement that he is an enemy combatant, he will be treated as such.

He might never fall into that particular but of Lefty nitwittery, but if he did treating him in this manner might put an end to that annoying "I am soldier in the fight for (blank)" grandstanding.

[DenverJay]

Were the Irish "troubles" war? Were the members of the IRA and the UVF committing crimes or acts war? How many of them stood up and declared themselves soldiers? How many members of Al Queda have done so?

[Sevo]

DenverJay| 4.20.13 @ 8:57PM |#
"Were the Irish "troubles" war?"

Dunno, don't care. If you think the 'troubles' are relevant, build your case.
So far, you've majored in assertions and failed in evidence.

[DenverJay]

I know I said I was only going to respond to the comment above, but I lied.
The "troubles" were officially known as the Irish Civil War, so yeah, I think it was a war. And the people fighting the war were not in uniform, and did not call themselves soldiers.
Japan never declared war on the U.S., they just bombed Pearl Harbor. So, then I guess we should have arrested Emperor Hirohito, Mirandaized his happy ass, and given him a trial with a jury of his peers (hard to do, since there are not a lot of Emperors available for jury duty)

[Kyfho Myoba]

One of the treaties signed at the end of the Revolutionary War acknowledges that all of the rights of the king of England are now vested in the American people. That's why (*tinfoil hat alert*) we're all sovereigns.

[Nooge.]

I am a South Carolinian; I am so ashamed of Graham I could puke. But he's like herpes. We can't get rid of him.

It's kind of funny down here. Local talk radio ruthlessly mocks him. He's unpopular in the newspapers. Bring him or the latest retarded thing he said up over office lunch and there is a collective grimace. But every six years, he gets elected.

He must be really good at doling out the pork. It's gotta be the only thing keeping him in office.

[Jon Lester]

Funny how no one wants to talk about Savannah River Site when we're looking for ways to cut spending.

[Jon Lester]

Graham has a friend in Zaxby:

http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/pol.....y-combata/

At least we'll be rid of him after next year.

[Nick Griffin]

Lindsey Graham should be declared an enemy combatant for his assaults on the Constitution.

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[DenverJay]

Clausewitz: "War is the continuation of Politics by other means"
Therefore, any crime committed for political reasons is war. Just like a Confederate spa robbing a bank was considered an act of war.

[Sevo]

DenverJay| 4.20.13 @ 9:32PM |#
"Clausewitz: "War is the continuation of Politics by other means"
Therefore, any crime committed for political reasons is war."

Clausewitz /= US Constitution.
Crime committed not yet shown.
Two fails.

[DenverJay]

Fine, you don't like the Prussians? How about the Chinese? "Politics is war without bloodshed, while war is politics with bloodshed." - Mao Zedong
Then our very own POTUS "Any time bombs are used to target innocent civilians it is an act of terror." Or do you not think that terrorism is an act of war?
What is your definition of "war"?

[DenverJay]

One more quote from Clausewitz, I think its a pretty good definition of war: "an act of violence intended to compel our opponent to fullfill our will." (Sorry, been reading about the Napoleonic Wars lately)

[DenverJay]

one more thing I have add for Sevo, who I suspect is on a high school debate team and will allege that I didn't support my assertion:
If you accept that definition, then
1. it was an act of violence
2. Assuming that they had a reason for their acts, the will that they intended to compel us (the opponent) to fulfill does not matter
So, by the definition of war that I am using, then yes, the action was an act of war

[Ballz]

semantics

[JohnD]

You do realize you are arguing with idiots don't you?

[DenverJay]

I hope you are talking to me, lol. But yeah, maybe not idiots, but definitely people who have made no attempt to understand the arguments underlying Western Democracy. Its seems that "libertarian" has morphed into "anarchist", a philosophy that is very different.
"Libertarianism" recognizes that Government is like fire, useful when kept in control, dangerous when out of control. But most of the posters here seem to think ANY government action, at any time, for any reason, is illegitimate.

[JohnD]

If Riggs is advocating treating this scum like a common criminal, then he is a fool.

[JohnD]

The more I read Reason and what passes for intelligent discourse in the comments , the less respect I have for libertarians.

[Jon Lester]

I'm not really a Randian, myself, but I'd appreciate some elaboration.

[Vincent T. Lombardo]

I practiced law for 30 years, although I was not a criminal defense attorney. Tsarnaev is an American citizen who allegedly committed crimes on American soil. I cannot understand how he can be tried as an enemy combatant, nor how he can be deprived his Miranda Warning. I think that Tsarnaev can receive his due process and that justice can still be served. I guess that I have a lot more faith in the American criminal justice system than some of our elected officials!

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