Can Obama Kill Some Dude Sitting in Starbucks? Holder Would Rather Not Say.

What exactly did Attorney General Eric Holder mean when he said, in response to questions from Rand Paul (R-Ky.) and other senators, that he could envision "extraordinary circumstances" in which it would be "necessary and appropriate" to use lethal force on U.S. soil against Americans suspected of involvement in terrorism? Given a chance to clarify his position during his testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee today, Holder resisted mightily.
In his March 4 letter to Paul, Holder said "the president could conceivably have no choice but to authorize the military to use such force if necessary to protect the homeland in circumstances like a catastrophic attack like the ones suffered on December 7, 1941, and September 11, 2001." This morning Holder elaborated on the latter scenario, citing President Bush's consideration of authorizing the Air Force to shoot down United Flight 93, the airplane that crashed in Pennsylvania on the way to Washington, D.C., after passengers fought back against Al Qaeda hijackers. But the moral and legal issue in that case was whether the lives of innocent passengers (who almost certainly would have died anyway) should be sacrificed to save potential victims at the White House or the Capitol. There was no question that using lethal force against the terrorists themselves, who posed a clear and imminent threat, was justified as an act of self-defense.
In any case, as The Atlantic's Conor Friedersdorf notes, Holder's letter suggests he did not have in mind the use of force against terrorists in the midst of an attack. "Were such an emergency to arise," Holder wrote, "I would examine the particular facts and circumstances before advising the president on the scope of his authority." If Holder imagines he will have time to draw up a memo, he clearly is not talking about a threat like a plane that is about to crash into the Capitol. At today's hearing, Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) repeatedly pressed Holder to say whether it would be constitutional to kill a suspected terrorist on U.S. soil if he did not pose an immediate threat. Holder dodged the question again and again, allowing only that killing a suspected terrorist who was just "walking down a path" or "sitting in a café" (as in Cruz's hypothetical) would not be "appropriate." Cruz complained:
You keep saying "appropriate." My question is not about propriety. My question is about whether something is constitutional or not….Do you have a legal judgment as to whether it would be constitutional to kill a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil in those circumstances?
Finally, after Cruz had given up on getting a straight answer from him, Holder said, "Translate my 'appropriate' to no. I thought I was saying no." No, he does not have an opinion, or no, he does not think it would be constitutional? Going with the latter interpretation, Cruz wondered why Holder resorted to rhetorical "gymnastics" instead of giving a direct answer and why he did not say as much in his letter to Paul.
The difference between inappropriate and unconstitutional is no small distinction, as the language Holder used in his letter suggests:
As a policy matter…we reject the use of military force where well-established law enforcement authorities in this country provide the best means for incapacitating a terrorist threat. We have a long history of using the criminal justice system to incapacitate individuals located in our country who pose a threat to the United States and its interests abroad. Hundreds of individuals have been arrested and convicted of terrorism-related offenses in our federal courts.
Holder says "as a policy matter" so as not to commit himself on the question of whether this approach to terrorists located within the United States, which the administration currently considers "appropriate," is legally required. Likewise with his maddeningly evasive remarks today, in which he resisted taking a clear position on the question of whether the license to kill claimed by the president includes the authority to order a hit on American soil.
You can watch the hearing here. The exchange with Cruz starts around the 1:19 mark.
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A politician refusing to give a straight answer? I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you!
Oh please. That oleaginous fuck couldn't deliver a straight answer if you wrote it under his eyelids. "Fuck you, that's why" is his middle name.
I thought his initials were "Ehh..."
No one said Holder could spell.
Fierce Moral Urgency of what?
Urgently Fuck You That's Why. At least it seems from their perspective.
Sounds accurate.
I could see authorizing a drone strike if someone were running guns to Mexican drug cartels, for instance....
How come Reason isn't live tweeting the filibuster?
This is fucking awesome. It's like the John Galt speech.
Some of us are live-commenting it in the other thread.
Gotta link the thread. It's a ways down the page.
So is the left is cool with a President Santorum drone-bombing abortion mills?
Come on, you know they don't think that far ahead.
Let's do the whole fucking Starbucks! Come on! What the fuck are we waiting for?
Rand Paul's filibuster is amazing. it's such a shame that no one will listen to his actual message.
Media spin; Ultra right wing tea party republican nut acts out, embarasses self and party.
If I understand T o n y's logic about how our perfect democracy and due process works, if you find yourself on a kill list, you're supposed to petition your representative. I don't see a problem here.
The due process will be that your heirs will have the legal right to have your name cleared and removed from the disposition matrix, posthumously.
not really.
There's also the due process of getting moved through the disposition matrix. Also known as drone process.
The due process will be that your heirs will have the legal right
After their inheritance has been taxed to nothing, because of fair sharez.
Naturally, as a disposition matrix-processed traitor, your assets are forfeit to the government in recompense.
Ah, reviving the old Roman proscription list, eh?
If it was good enough for the Romans, it's good enough for us.
Given that the kill list is top secret, if you find out you are on the kill list it means somewhere along the line you have violated the secrecy laws and are therefore a legitimate kill list target. Anybody that complains about being on the kill list belongs on the kill list.
This is why I say that the due process resides in your heirs, as you only find out when the drone reaches its disposition matrix-designated location.
Dude, what's the first rule of Kill List....?
What a shit weazel. Just answer the fucking you duplicitous halfwit!
"What a shit weazel"
I prefer shitheel.
But you are spot on with the "duplicitous halfwit".
I haven't read through all of this, but I get the impression he didn't say "No, except in extraordinary circumstances." See, the baseline should be that it's illegal under normal circumstances, and it would take basically military attacks on the U.S. to trigger it and only to the extent necessary to fend off such attacks. He sorta tries to sound like he's saying that, but I don't think he is.
Of course, when they drone all of the libertarians and Republicans, that will be an extraordinary circumstance.
We're an imminent threat. Maybe not imminent imminent. But imminent nonetheless.
What, we have to wait for traitors to do something treasonous? Why not nip the problem in the bud?
Mr. Holder, let me ask you a simple question. If the police are absolutely certain that a man has committed many terrible crimes and will continue to commit such crimes, do you, as a person of color, believe the police have the constitional authority to shoot the bastard and save the taxpayers the cost of trial?
do you, as a person of color,
This always annoys me, but it's actually a bit of genius that you stuck it in there. It's the only thing that makes a progressive listen.
Everything is "blah blah blah" until they hear "person of color", then they get interested.
It was intentional.
I know.
It worked with the Christopher Dorner situation, so why not?
Hey those cans of highly-combustible tear gas ain't cheap. That's why they only used seven against one guy.
"Translate my 'appropriate' to no. I thought I was saying no."
And, here's the translation:
Holder dodged the question again and again, allowing only that killing a suspected terrorist who was just "walking down a path" or "sitting in a caf?" (as in Cruz's hypothetical) would not be "no."
So, Holder is saying that killing a terrorist sitting in a cafe would be a yes.
Rand says, "There may be bad people sitting in cafes across America. If they are, arrest them..."
Ha!
Just call in the LAPD with some incendiary grenades, or the DHS with their armored vehicles. Who needs drones?
Drones don't draw overtime.
Why do i have a feeling that had evil Boosh or anyone remotely connected to evil Boosh done something like this that the LSm and the elft would never, ever had gone along? Now they all are making lame excuses and saying Obama will not abuse the power. After he dronz Limbaugh for being a terror enabler they will cheer and demand more.
How can someone not tell just by watching the smug smirk on his face as he defends committing human rights violations that the guy is an mustache-twirling cartoon evil bastard? Oh, right, partisanship. Never mind carry on.
The next time the American Left complains about a Nazi Republican, maybe they should be reminded of this.
Someone far brighter than I noted that Holder looks precisely like a gay porn star with that moustache.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.