In an Echo of Vietnam Protests, Veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan Throw Back Medals During the Chicago NATO Protests

Via The Guardian, here's April 23, 1971 where hundreds of classic hippie-looking folks who were once fighting in Vietnam threw back their medals from that war and did things like call those medals "a bunch of bullshit." One said, "I got a purple heart here and I hope I get another one fighting these motherfuckers."

And here is Sunday in Chicago where a more diverse group (at least, there were multiple ladies, though a few mothers apparently joined in the '71 protest in honor of their deceased sons) of around 50 veterans who repeated that symbolic gesture. They threw their medals earned in Afghanistan and Iraq back in the general direction of NATO. Some apologized to the people of those countries as they did so. One said "I don't want any part of this anymore. I chose human life over war, militarism and imperialism."

The protesters included Iraq War veteran Scott Olsen who was famously injured last October during the Occupy Oakland protests. Olsen was hit in the head with a tear gas canister that was possibly purposefully aimed at him by police, leaving him with a traumatic brain injury. Olsen once thought he was doing good as a soldier, but "I came back to reality," he said before throwing his medals. "I don't want these anymore."

There are plenty of reasons to scorn most protesters, and Reason has aimed a fairly critical eye towards the Occupy movement of late. But there's being wrong on economics, and then there is this same story of veterans making that "not easy decision" after years of souring towards, what this vet referred to as "the most important experience of your entire life." Indeed, how hard it must be "to say that I was wrong." 

Back in 1917, gifted British soldier and poet, as well as victim of shellshock Siegfried Sassoon was thought to have thrown his Military Cross into the Mersey River. Turns out he may have only thrown the ribbon, though he definitely expressed his anger at what "the war to end all wars" had turned into. He was nearly court martialed for it.

Though they chose to join the military as well, these men and women have seen actual wars. So the fact that they are protesting rings a little more true than most shows of in the streets, marching outrage. A 180 turnabout always cuts a little deeper than a professional agitator does. Vets who go rogue-hippie (and some of the 2012 ones look so similar to the ones from '71, hippie-beards and sorrowful anger and all) are more than weekend radicals advocating for Fidel Castro, or frees stuff, or any of the usual offenders and parades of naive pests who show up at every protest.

Veterans were told, as we all are to greater and lesser degree by the propaganda in the air, that the best thing you can do is to join the military. Their feeling of betrayal, that they ended up on different missions than ones of liberation or freedom like they were promised, is palpable. Like cops in Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, these soldiers should be listened to because they have been in the thick of what they now despise. And then they get abandoned by the bureaucratic mess that is the military, to deal with their nasty mental health problems, leading to more of them committing suicide than have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.

At least these folks are not basing their disapproval of the wars on who is in the White House. 

Obama discussed on Monday, the last day of the summit, that in 2014 the Afghanis will have to run their own country. Except that just means that American troops will be "largely" withdrawn. The Afghan armed forces will have help "training" for another ten years after that. A May A.P. poll noted that 66 percent of Americans now disapprove of the war in Afghanistan, suggesting that these medal-tossing vets are not entirely alone.

And it's not like everything is all fixed up in Iraq, either, now that the U.S. is all gone. Except for that embassy, that is.

Reason on the anti-war movement and on Occupy, And Reason.tv on "What Happened to the Anti-War Movement?"

Comments

[SIV]

Fuck 'em. They made bad choices.

Joining the military, like taking out student loans is perfectly voluntary in today's America.

[Lucy Steigerwald]

You're right. And yet I find their protests way more poignant...

[AlmightyJB]

Well their protest are definately more informed.

[Brutus]

What did they think the military was for? "What, a rifle? And you want me to shoot it?? At people???"

SIV's right.

[Suki]

How can you write all those words about veterans throwing medals and leave out John F. Kerry?

[CuriousGeorge]

Cause he didn't throw his medals? Or maybe he did, I don't think this was ever answered

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics.....7sC-0UV28o

[wareagle]

students choose their own stupid major. Soldiers get sent to shitspots of someone else's choosing.

[Sevo]

Yes, and they signed on the dittoed lion to accept that.

[Sudden]

Just because they signed the dittoed lion doesn't mean they have to tow it.

Although, admittedly, I do see both sides of that debate. Yes, they signed up for military service knowing damn well that it would be involving shooting people at shitholes abroad, and especially anyone who signed up post 9-11 knew damn well what it entailed. I have little sympathy for buyer's remorse.

But I also recognize the flip side, that most of the people who enlist do so as 18-19 year old kids who have been semi-brainwashed into this dulce et decorum est pro patria mori mentality that we've perpetuated through our society's soldier-worship. If their whole worldview gets turned upside down upon seeing what the reality of that looks like through the sight of a rifle, I can to some extent sympathize and see that as a sign of growth.

Ultimately, my opinion of such a person depends on what their motivation for their discontent afterwards is: if they are mad because they see the injustice or counter-productivity that our actions reep overseas, I sympathize. If they simply resent having been sent over there and getting their psyche messed up, piss off man, you should've known what military service implied.

[General Butt Naked]

Thank you, sudden.

The "U SINED AWN DA DOTED LIGN SO STFU" comments were getting kind of stale.

I took the protesters not to be bitching that they had to serve, but that in their experience the wars that the higher ups sell to the public as just and effective are neither. I'm inclined to agree.

[Sevo]

"The "U SINED AWN DA DOTED LIGN SO STFU" comments were getting kind of stale."
As are the "Well, shucks (kick some dirt)" comments.

"I took the protesters not to be bitching that they had to serve, but that in their experience the wars that the higher ups sell to the public as just and effective are neither. I'm inclined to agree."
I don't disagree that the government claims are, but are the protesters admitting they're fools?
Are they claiming they were mislead?
One of those two might offer them some excuse, but it leaves them with the dilemma of being a fool or a knave.

[Randian]

I don't disagree that the government claims are, but are the protesters admitting they're fools?
Are they claiming they were mislead?
One of those two might offer them some excuse, but it leaves them with the dilemma of being a fool or a knave.

When you finally learned that 2+2 = 4, did your failure to know that previously render you a fool or knave? It's gotta be one of the two. When you weren't a libertarian (because you weren't at some point), were you a fool or a knave?

[Sevo]

"When you finally learned that 2+2 = 4, did your failure to know that previously render you a fool or knave?"

Uh, when I learned 2+2=4, I *was* 4. Not knowing that earlier qualifies me for neither.
How old are these folks?

[Randian]

So what is your age cutoff for learning complex truths? Because comedians have been selling the same old jokes dressed in different angles for 50 years and we're still laughing.

[Sevo]

Randian|5.21.12 @ 11:47PM|#
"So what is your age cutoff for learning complex truths?"

How complex? Don't you think that high-school kids should have figured out that birth-control is a good alternative to 'committing' 18 years to raise a child?
You can't join until you're 18. If you need my guidance at that point, your folks really screwed up. And you didn't go out of your way to figure it out, either.

[Randian]

Don't you think that high-school kids should have figured out that birth-control is a good alternative to 'committing' 18 years to raise a child?

What does this nonsense have to do with anything?

You can't join until you're 18

False.

If you need my guidance at that point, your folks really screwed up.

So you did in fact "know everything" at 18. Hey, good to know that you have been violently wrong for decades now.

[General Butt Naked]

I think that no one really knows what war is like until they experience it and that when these guys signed up they had a naive outlook. Hell, how many years did it take for people stateside to see the light on Iraq? And it was even longer for Afghanistan.

Now it looks as there is some sort of consensus on these wars, but (as you know) there were quite a few years there where pointing out the folly of perpetual nation building was a minority position. Fuck, in 2003 the lefty pussies at the NYT could be seen ridiculing naive peaceniks.

Not to mention that I don't think these guys protesting are out to get any sympathy as a lot here are assuming. Rather they just seem to have a beef with US foreign policy, like a lot here do.

And sometimes people just change their minds...

[Randian]

Changing your mind is proof positive that you deserve ruthless mockery and general assholery. Just ask Sevo.

[General Butt Naked]

Thank you, sudden.

The "U SINED AWN DA DOTED LIGN SO STFU" comments were getting kind of stale.

I took the protesters not to be bitching that they had to serve, but that in their experience the wars that the higher ups sell to the public as just and effective are neither. I'm inclined to agree.

[Sevo]

..."people who enlist do so as 18-19 year old kids who have been semi-brainwashed into this dulce et decorum est pro patria mori mentality that we've perpetuated through our society's soldier-worship."...

Having a hard time sympathizing.
Maybe the propaganda is heavier now than when I 'ducked' the draft by enlisting. Maybe.
But how much self-deception do I have to discount to presume the folks involved are not moral agents? Are all products of (pub ed, recent news stories, etc) not subject to moral judgement?
Does reading Huff Po mean you get to say ooops?

[Randian]

Having a hard time sympathizing.

I doubt you're trying very hard.

But how much self-deception do I have to discount to presume the folks involved are not moral agents? Are all products of (pub ed, recent news stories, etc) not subject to moral judgement?

Just the opposite - all subjects are subject to judgment. However, that doesn't mean every judgment has to be a damnatory judgment. You can adjudge them misguided fools deserving of guidance and sympathy rather than as evildoers deserving of derision and scorn.

Just because you should engage in judgment doesn't mean you need to be what is traditionally thought of as judgmental.

[Sevo]

"Just the opposite - all subjects are subject to judgment. However, that doesn't mean every judgment has to be a damnatory judgment. You can adjudge them misguided fools deserving of guidance and sympathy rather than as evildoers deserving of derision and scorn."

Yes, I can do that.
Exactly when does this particular population become capable of moral action without your or my 'guidance'. And how would you or me provide that?
I seem to recall that along about 18 or so, my folks said 'You got what knowledge we can give you. Good luck'.
When do these folks get to take that responsibility? Do we 'owe' them guidance until they're, what, 30?

[Randian]

It's interesting to me that 18 is your magical cutoff point. You are letting the state set your own moral agenda. Why not say, 16? or 20? you just happen to think that 17 and 364 days is significantly different than 18? I doubt it.

Exactly when does this particular population become capable of moral action without your or my 'guidance'. And how would you or me provide that?

You do understand that judgment is a foregone conclusion, but that the verdict needn't be, right?

I don't think you know what "judgment" really means in this context. At least you aren't using it like you do.

[Sevo]

"I don't think you know what "judgment" really means in this context. At least you aren't using it like you do."

OK, tell me what " "judgment" really means in this context."
I'm not sure you have a clue as to what "judgement" means in any context.

[General Butt Naked]

Whoa, hey hey now. We're all registered commenters here, can't we keep this civil?

[Sevo]

I wouldn't mind, but...

[General Butt Naked]

Here, read this, it'll calm your nerves.

A taste:

"Here he comes. [The dog] comes at him. Boom! Are you going to wait until this dog jumps on you?" said Aliquippa Police Chief Andre Davis. "They have a split-second to decide. We never want a situation to end like that."

[Sevo]

Randian|5.21.12 @ 11:49PM|#
"It's interesting to me that 18 is your magical cutoff point. You are letting the state set your own moral agenda. Why not say, 16? or 20? you just happen to think that 17 and 364 days is significantly different than 18? I doubt it."

Uh, I pointed out that I knew 2+2=4 at age four. Not 16, not 20, not 17+365 days. Is that hard to understand? Do you see a difference between 4 and any of those strawmen you offered? Are you having a hard time counting fingers?

[Randian]

I suppose that moral agency imbued itself in you at four, then?

It is fine that you want to hold people accountable for their actions as adults, but you have a very Christian attitude about doing so, in that you are ruthlessly trying to determined who sinned and who is clean. It's a fools errand.

[Bill]

I have to side with Randian here. You are being overly harsh here, Sevo. Some kids are brain-washed by their families their whole lives about the greatness of military service. Some were motivated to protect their country from Al Quaida after 9-11. That they learned the truth and changed their views is laudatory.

If someone voted for Obama at age 18 and now like Ron Paul, does that make them worthy of scorn because they were wrong once?

[niobiumstudio]

You seem to forget, the people who ended up in Iraq and Afghanistan did not have a real war in their lifetimes where they saw first hand what happened in places like Vietnam. They ONLY really saw Desert Storm - which we kicked ass and were right out. Most people who signed up expected to kick Al Qaeda ass and have a repeat of Desert Storm. That was the only war they saw in their lifetime and thought that the US changed militarily and wouldn't let another Vietnam happen. Not to mention, growing up (especially in middle/lower class neighborhoods) soldiers were considered the #1 heroic job, pounded into you from the time you were a child and that it is the best thing you can do for your country. When you are 18 (especially in 2001-2004) we didn't resent the military like people did back during Vietnam and had nothing to hate it for. Now, kids who are in high school will look at the military the same way you did during/right after Vietnam. You can't blame these people for expecting something good out of the military when they had no reason to think otherwise. They knew what they were signing up for - and that didn't involve 10+ years in the desert fighting against a different enemy than who attacked us.

[Invisible Finger]

I think Sevo's being a "little" harsh on teenagers.

But let's face facts here - some of these protesters are in their 30's and 40's. That means a lot of reservists are pissed off that their "a few weekends a year" duties got pushed into full-time service. And they resent that it fucked up their lives.

Yeah, I can empathize with people protesting government lies and general bullshit. But at the same time these are the exact people who enabled government to get very cavalier with sending troops where it damn well pleases.

They'd do a LOT more good passing out pamphlets at high schools explaining exactly what military recruiters DON'T tell you than they do with these largely symbolic gestures. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that a lot of these people joined the military largely as a symbolic gesture. And that's where I understand Sevo railing against such naivete.

[Drake]

Fuck them. I'm a war Veteran. I knew damn well what I was signing up for. I didn't bitch then and I'm not bitching now.

"Bo ho, I joined the Army and they expected me to fight in a war!" Pussies.

[Apatheist ?_??]

*barf*

[wingnutx]

It's become a common way for shitbirds to save face.

Too much of a soup sandwich to even be a decent pogue? Make up for it by being an antiwar hero afterwards, and get accolades for looking like a pile of crap in uniform.

[niobiumstudio]

If they were bitching about having to fight in a war, you would have a point. But they aren't so you are wrong. Every one protesting there WANTED TO GO TO WAR. And they ALL expected to kick the shit out of the people who ATTACKED US on our own soil - people who killed their families, friends, and relatives. Then they got there, and that is exactly what they did - for a few months. They are protesting because that is exactly what they DIDN'T end up doing. They expected to go disarm a WMD armed Saddam - and they didn't. They were lied to... I haven't heard ONE veteran from these two wars complain about the fact that they had to fight a war...

[SIV]

Veterans were told, as we all are to greater and lesser degree by the propaganda in the air, that the best thing you can do is to join the military.

No, we're told the best thing is to "go to college".That's why the military recruits with offers of educational benefits.

Maybe the soldiers should protest their old HS English teachers for not assigning Wilfred Owen and Siegfried Sassoon.

[HazelMeade]

Except it's sort of moot these days because any fool can get $100,000 in Stafford loans to study ancient sumerian mythology.

Fun fact: Most people go who go into "environmental studies" end up working for oil and mining industries.

[Groovus Maximus]

Excellent job, Lucy. I was a bit surprised The Fraudian would have such a good piece, it read more like The UK Telegraph. I really enjoyed the military history about Siegfried Sassoon POV in the piece, and it was pretty compelling. Very fair piece. It's easy to dismiss the Whiny Patchouli Brigade and The Loansters, but these soldiers are an entirely different story here. Yes, they voluntarily enlisted. However, their lives are not to be taken lightly, and should not be dispatched on a whim. You don't treat your soldiers like disposable pawns so you can just knock them over and hide them under the chess board, out of sight, out of mind. Points also for calling PTSD, which is such a sterile, clinical term for what it is: shellshock.

Well done.

[Episiarch]

However, their lives are not to be taken lightly, and should not be dispatched on a whim. You don't treat your soldiers like disposable pawns so you can just knock them over and hide them under the chess board, out of sight, out of mind.

For you, doc.

[Sudden]

and for you good sir, as this was the song I initially expected to be linked

[SIV]

War Pigs with Trombones

This was always a real show stopper live

[wareagle]

the protest seems a bit silly, like someone decided Born on the Fourth of July needed reviving in some fashion. Wars not going as intended is not new and how many guys signed up after 9/11 specifically to go kill someone. Yes, the suits who run the military screwed them just like they screw the rest of us with other decisions.

I don't want to equate them to the Occutards but stuff like this does not help their case.

[JimDee]

CNN missed this story for some reason.

http://www.google.com/search?q.....CC0QpwUoAQ

[Killazontherun]

Our men in uniform are so commonly misunderstood. Many people are unaware of their sensitive, poetic souls. A few favorite versus you will hear chanted while the young men enjoy an outing of calisthenics from over the years:

Damn, damn, damn the Filipinos;
Cross-eyed, kakiak (brown-skinned) ladrones (thieves);
'Neath our starry flag;
Civilize them with a Krag;
And return us to our beloved homes.

A yellow bird,
With a yellow bill,
Was sitting on...
My window sill

I coaxed him in,
With a piece of bread,
And then I smashed his...
F-ING HEAD!

I went down to the market where all the women shop; I pulled out my machete and I begin to chop; I went down toto the park where all the children play; I pulled out my machine gun and I begin to spray.

"One, two, three, four. Every night we pray for war. Five, six, seven, eight. Rape. Kill. Mutilate."

[Brutus]

ROTC used to drill by our frat house. My favorite was, "Eenie, meenie, minie, mo! Shoot that commie in the hole!!"

[Xenocles]

Throw the candy on the schoolyard / Watch the children gather 'round / Then we pull our M-16s out / Mow those little fuckers down!

The brass killed that one with fire whenever they got the chance. Being (among other things) college students at the time, we found it subversive and cool to do it anyway whenever we could get away with it.

People can be pretty stupid when they don't have any experience. We sure were.

[Sudden]

To be fair, warriors have produced some epic anti-war poetry:

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares(2) we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest(3) began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots(4)
Of tired, outstripped(5) Five-Nines(6) that dropped behind.
Gas!(7) Gas! Quick, boys! ? An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets(8) just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime(9) . . .
Dim, through the misty panes(10) and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering,(11) choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud(12)
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest(13)
To children ardent(14) for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.(15)

[Almanian's Evil Twin]

A bunch of my fraternity bros in college were Marine Officer Candidates (OCS - "Owl Candidate School" as we referred to it).

The one song I can just vaguely remember was "Napalm Sticks to Kids" with a line "...burning bright, like candles in the night...napalm sticks to kids...."

We thought it was hilarious. I'm sure in real life it's simply horrifying.

[Gladstone]

Doesn't Reason and its readers support Reconstruction? So shouldn't the troops be in Florida to make sure that Zimmerman is convicted?

[Xenocles]

...

[SIV]

Fergit Hell!

[Spoonman.]

I...uh....what?

[Hazel Meade]

Personally, I do not "get" why someone would bother with an anti-NATO protest.

NATO is not particularly effective as a military force, and they have not engaged in any greatly controversial military action lately. Lybia, ok. But the Lybian people don't seen terribly incrensed about it.

Afghanistan? Not many argue the initial invasion of Afghanistan was illegitimate, and NATO is winding down it's presence there anyway.

So what's the point? I find myself inclined to think that the protests have been bankrolled by Russia or Syria or are useful idiots for some decrepit communist group like ANSWER.

[wareagle]

you are getting way too far into the weeds. It was a photo op, a place for the Occutards to resurface and some vets glommed onto the event. There does not have to be a point, does there? Some groups need reasons to act, others just need excuses.

[PapayaSF]

I agree. Charging NATO with "imperialism" seems like a huge stretch.

[Sevo]

How about charging NATO with the same sort of irrelevancy and cost as the UN?
We're broke; let the Euros pay for their own damn defense.

[PapayaSF]

A different point, and a more convincing one.

[The Immaculate Trouser]

Sorry, but as a vet who also isn't crazy about the course of our foreign policy, I'm not terribly sympathetic. The military entails killing and being killed, and getting sent to places where you'd rather not be -- this would be true under even the most libertarian of regimens. A Ron Paul military would still require people who put on the uniform and get shipped to various parts of the states or, if you're in the navy/Marines, to defend some shipping lane or attack pirates. Don't like all that? Then don't serve, and don't bother the rest of us with your exhibitionism.

[Sevo]

^this^
There is no draft now. Joining (unlike the Vietnam era) isn't a choice between being drafted into the army or 'joining' some other 'service'. You joined knowing full well that the government (Bush or Obama) is insistent on 'pacifying' the middle east.
And if you're tossing the medals, are you also tossing VA benies?

[Sudden]

A Ron Paul military would still require people who put on the uniform and get shipped to various parts of the states or, if you're in the navy/Marines, to defend some shipping lane or attack pirates.

I hope you're right. Not that Ron Paul is gonna be the next president, but at times I felt like his rhetoric, although accurate on scaling back our role in the world, might be a little too over the top on retreating from world affairs.

I really wish (and think his electability would've been enhanced by) he would've said "hey, we are the global hegemon and I intend on keeping that role in the world by being diplomatically active, ensuring global trade, and yes, even committing the US Navy to securing international shipping lines."

[CuriousGeorge]

If he'd ever managed to get traction this might have occurred, but there was really no need given where it was at.

[Randian]

Sorry, but as a vet who also isn't crazy about the course of our foreign policy, I'm not terribly sympathetic.

Sympathetic to what? Most of the article is Ms. Steigerwald editorializing, not necessarily views of the antiwar vets.

Joining (unlike the Vietnam era) isn't a choice between being drafted into the army or 'joining' some other 'service'. You joined knowing full well that the government (Bush or Obama) is insistent on 'pacifying' the middle east.

I also know that poison will kill me. That doesn't mean I recognize the full import of that fact until I actually swallow it. That doesn't make me smart per se, but at least someone who has swallowed the poison can legitimately tell you how it feels.

And I still don't see what "it's voluntary" has to do with their protest. They knew it was voluntary, and now they regret the decision and are expressing that. So the fuck what?

[Sevo]

"I also know that poison will kill me. That doesn't mean I recognize the full import of that fact until I actually swallow it."

Uh, are you really offering this as a defense of your arguments? You shouldn't do that; do you take poison until you die and then decide it isn't a good idea?
----------------------------
"And I still don't see what "it's voluntary" has to do with their protest. They knew it was voluntary, and now they regret the decision and are expressing that. So the fuck what?"

So admit you weren't real bright and don't bother bragging about it by being a media whore. Most folks make mistakes and don't bother calling attention to them.

[Randian]

So admit you weren't real bright and don't bother bragging about it by being a media whore. Most folks make mistakes and don't bother calling attention to them.

Better tell that to say, Saul of Tarsus. Or any prominent libertarian who was once a Republican shill or an airheaded Leftist.

Admitting you made a mistake is the adult thing to do, and only children such as yourself mock those who exhibit self-growth.

[General Butt Naked]

I threw away my medals because 'General Butt Naked Except For A Few Medals' is way too clunky.

[Res Publica Americana]

When it comes to this sort of thing, it all depends on what they're actually saying:

1) If they're protesting American foreign policy, great for them -- they've got every right to do so, especially since they've experienced it personally.

2) If they're there to complain about assignment or deployment, tough shit, guys -- you volunteered to become a soldier and follow orders.

[R]

OT: Looks like Space X successfully launched their bird. It's only been about 15 minutes or so since launch but it looks like it went well.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.c.....ic=28942.0

[Wholly Holy Cow]

Well, at least the Commie thugs the US military was fighting in Vietnam never went on to kill anyone else in S.E. Asia. Whew! What a relief. Oh, hey, anyone ever see The Killing Fields? Great fuckin' movie.

Anyway, I hear that a certain Arabic dead guy who was killed in the most daring raid since 1587, or so says Joe Biden, saw the bravery of the Vietnam vets....the ones throwing their medals away and that gave him an idea. An idea about planes and towers and kaboomey type shenanigans.

It's all about the blowback.

P.S. In the more recent video above, I think I saw one black guy; no gay couples held hands and I bet some of the vets will go on to use the GI Bill and similar military civilian benefits. Racism! Homophobia! Hypocrisy!

[np]

Funny, those "commie thugs" actually came to the US for help first, in asking to negotiate with France, before they actually turned to Russia when everyone else refused. Of course having Diem be a US puppet didn't really help things out now didn't it?

Before the final excuse to go all in with the Gulf of Tonkin false flag, McNamara confessed--after official denials for years by the government--to instigating attacks (see Operation 34 alpha)

[np]

I can see both sides. On the one hand, they naively signed up for it, thinking they were fighting the good fight, but on the other hand they were sold a lie.

And since we're making free market comparisons, then why can't the government be accountable for fraud? From Iraq to the intervention in Libya and Egypt (i.e. the promise of outcomes never materializing), back to Vietnam. Gulf of Tonkin? Complete false flag.

[np]

Furthermore, if you want to make analogies and treat this like the private sector, then much like any organization, they should be able to quit and be discharged right on the spot if they change their minds. No criminal/military repercussions, aside from any civil financial forfeitures.

[np]

i.e. much like militias subject to the same law rather than a standing army subject to different military law as originally intended

[np]

Back with the fraud case, and concerning the proposed act to repeal the ability for government to directly give Propaganda, I'd say they should be able to, and be held accountable just like anyone else for fraud in use of tax dollars, namely all political decisions, should the propaganda used to justify those decisions contain falsehoods

[Brian from Texas]

This nation's sons and daughters in uniform do what 99% of us won't do because we're all a bunch of fat, lazy, spoiled pussies. They put their asses on the line for the rest of us. And out government shows its appreciation by using them as sacrificial lambs in unconstitutional wars and treating our wounded warriors like discarded trash. And the warfare state liberals and neocons wonder why Ron Paul leads in military and veteran supporters.

[Plisade]

I'm a Desert Storm veteran. I have no problem with these other vet's protesting U.S. foreign policy - I'm against most of it myself. But symbolizing their protest by trashing their medals brings more into it, for me anyway, in that doing so discounts the efforts of military personnel. In contrast, a more impressive protest might be to proudly stand wearing your medals, yet deliver anti-war sentiment. I'm proud of my service and those I served with, but I feel no duty to give da gummint a pass on their attrocious use of the military.

[Plisade]

atrocious

[Lucy Steigerwald]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

[Plisade]

You're welcome.

[Bags]

I was drafted in 1967. I could be anti the war without hypocracy. Today's vets don't have the same moral standing. They voluteered. The military is the best career path for many young people today considering all of the perks that go with it. Now they are out and can be hip by grandstanding while they are probably getting free tuition that they aren't throwing away.

[Plisade]

There is really only one place a person can go to become a modern archetypal warrior, if that is one's calling, and that place is the armed forces. It is disingenuous or ill-informed at best to assume/expect that any person who joins the military will give the govt. carte blanche on his/her loyalty or support. Many are in it for the fight, not the cause. No hypocrisy there.

[Lucy Steigerwald]

Definitely less moral standing if you volunteered, but there's room to change your mind and regret your decisions especially if you were young and encouraged by other factors such as tuition.

[Libertarian]

You guys serious?! The anti-war movement is MIA, and you're going to come down on veterans who are having an anti-war protest? Why? Too many Americans worship the military, and too many Americans think that there are 2 kinds of people in this country: those who "served", and those who benefitted from those who served. I love it when vets protest war. I wish it happened more.