Is It Mitt Romney's Problem that Mormons Posthumously Baptize Dead People?
"It's bad that Mormons posthumously baptized Daniel Pearl. It is far far far worse that radical Islamists beheaded him," the New York Daily News' Josh Greenman tweeted this afternoon. That remark is a response to a report from the Boston Globe that a Mormon congregation in Idaho baptized the murdered reporter in 2011:
Members of the Mormon Church last year posthumously baptized Daniel Pearl, the Wall Street Journal reporter who was captured and killed by terrorists in Pakistan shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, according to records uncovered by a researcher in Utah.
Helen Radkey, an excommunicated Mormon who combs through the church's archives, said that records indicate Pearl, who was Jewish, was baptized by proxy on June 1, 2011 at a Mormon temple in Twin Falls, Idaho.
Mormons baptize deceased Jews and members of other religions as part of a rite intended to give them access to salvation.
But the practice has stirred outrage among some Jewish leaders. In 1995, the church, after meeting with Jewish leaders, agreed to stop baptizing Holocaust victims. Current church policy encourages church members to baptize their ancestors, but does not explicitly forbid the baptism of deceased Jews and people of other faiths.
Back when I was a Charismatic Episcopalian, the bombing of Baghdad brought me to tears, as I imagined the number of Muslims who would die that night without having accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. An agnostic now, I can still sympathize with the Mormons: In religious traditions that claim a monopoly on salvation, praying for nonbelievers is both a non-negotiable duty and an act of charity.
If you don't believe their teachings, of course, these symbolic rites can feel like insults. But is it actually bad that Mormons posthumously baptize members of other sects? Who, exactly, is harmed by that act? Certainly not Pearl. In fact, if the Mormons have a monopoly on salvation, Pearl stands to benefit. If they don't, no harm done. His fellow Jews may feel insulted that Mormons think Pearl needed an assist, but that sword cuts both ways. Orthodox Jews have rules that prevent interfaith families from being buried together. I can imagine scenarios in which that would feel like a complete slap in the face. But Jews who abide by these laws don't see them as insulting:
"We bury our people with our people," said Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a rosh yeshiva at the Modern Orthodox Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary at Yeshiva University. "We maintain our social relationships after death as well, hence we bury Jews with Jews. We don't bury Jews with non-Jews because we don't have a social relationship with them," he said, referring to communal obligations among Jews.
"The main thing is it shouldn't be looked upon as a derogatory view of other religions," Tendler said. "It's a highly personal, family concept."
I don't mean to conflate the two practices (posthumous baptism, like Mormonism, is inclusive; segregated burial, like some forms of Judaism, is exlusive), but they are similar in that neither harms the dead or the living.
And while I certainly don't mean to suggest that any religious group should wave a white flag, I do think it's odd that anyone would ask Mitt Romney to condemn his church's harmless traditions, which the Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel has done. Not only is Pearl's posthumous baptism a non-issue compared to his capture and horrific execution, there are far more substantial reasons to put Romney's feet to the fire.
Commentary's Bethany Shondark has alerted to me a piece by Globe columnist Jeff Jacoby that's also worth your time:
In Judaism, conversion after death is a concept without meaning; no after-the-fact rites in this world can possibly change the Jewishness of the men, women, children, and babies whom the Nazis, in their obsessive hatred, singled out for extermination. I found the Mormons' belief eccentric, not offensive. By my lights, their efforts to make salvation available to millions of deceased strangers were ineffectual. But plainly they were sincere, and intended as a kindness.
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BFD?
A religion with an imaginary god uses magic to allow somebody from another bogus belief system to enter their imaginary paradise. Mystics freak out, kill American soldiers. OK, last part made up.
Baptizing dead people isn't "bad," but it is super creepy.
Plus, it's disrespectful to the family of the deceased. And I thought Mormons were nice, not rude?
I caught you a delicious bass.
Technically, what Mormons believe they are doing isn't converting dead people, but instead offering dead people the opportunity to join their religion (or reject the offer to join).
There's nothing disrespectful about it. As long as they ain't diggin up dead bodies, go ahead. It's disrespectful to tell another religion to stop such an utterly harmless practice.
You people in your various cults do weird shit for your gods.
Next time someone asks you if you're a god, Warty, you say "yes"!!!
I'll offer to baptize everyone who was roasted in the depths of the Slor.
I'll rectify the Vuldronaii--free of charge!
He always screws that up.
In related news, Murray has definitely said no to a Ghostbusters sequel. He loves Dan, but he saw the abomination that was the "sequel" to The Blues Brothers. At least, that's my theory.
Bill is pretty smart about what movies he does.
"Do you have any regrets?"
"Well...maybe Garfield."
Zombieland was fun. Plus, Emma Stone.
What does God need with a proxy baptism?
To get around his IP ban.
I hereby baptize everyone on H&R in the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You can thank me later.
I'll thank you now - thank you!
Technically, that thank you was later.
"Let us sing praise to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for He is a loving God. Of His might and dominion, there is no compare; of His mercy and deliciousness, there is no equal. No other god can challenge Him; in the taste test, He is invincible. Through His pasta, He has blessed us with everlasting life, and holy is His Name. For He is the Flying Spaghetti Monster: the One, True, and Most High God, creator of man and midgit, giver of pasta, giver of sauce, from age to holy age; not created He was, but ever He lives, through the glory of spaghetti, now and forever. R'Amen."
~ Ishmali Camuwundra on the Flying Spaghetti Monster
In the name of the Pasta, and of the Sauce, and of the Holy Meatballs, RAmen.
As a Holocaust survivor, I am deeply offended.
As a holocaust victim, I am deeply ambivalent
As a holocaust denier I am amused.
As an honorary Mormon, I posthumously baptize Yenkl.
As a hovercraft I am nonplussed
This is Angry Hillbilly God territory, pastafarian.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER CARBOHYDRATES BEFORE ME!
....AHEM!!
I WILL SKIN YOU ALIVE, FOOLISH TUBER! THIS IS OLD TESTAMENT FIRE AND BRIMSTONE DEAD SEA SODOM GOMORRAH PILLAR OF SALT GOD YOU ARE FUCKING WITH NOW! I'LL DRAG YOU BEHIND MY HOLY ATV INTO THE LAKE OF NASCAR FIRE!
I'll drive you insane if you try.
Cremation offends my religious sensibilities. Especially if the person isn't dead yet.
So, what convinces you that Romney is actually alive?
Alive/functional--what difference does it make? He passed the Turing test a while back. Just the Voight-Kampff Empathy Test to go, then he can be president!
But is it actually bad that Mormons posthumously baptize members of other sects?
For this "baptism" to actually carry any weight, Pearl would have to be physically present to drink the baby's blood from the skull chalice. As it is, this is just a symbolic act.
"This is fucking great. I'm gonna line this thing with gargoyles for the sacrifices."
"What's your name again?"
"Danzig, motherfucker."
ATHF is pure awesomeness, but I think Squidbillies tops it, even if just by a tiny bit.
Not. A. Chance.
Not. A. Chance.
Au contraire. You see, it's all in the writing. For example:
"Love your fella man just as long as you can.
Before the locusts swoop down from on high.
Where the grape bed turns red,
And you face fills with boils.
And the serpent will feast on the damned.
You best submit to your husband,
Lest your organs be devoured.
By the jagged hellish teeth,
Of the beast from down below.
By the Code of Hammurabi,
Both your eyeballs will be taken.
They'll be plucked out of your head holes,
And shown to your body.
Which is now just a skeleton,
Cause he also ate the flesh.
He'll use your radius and ulna,
For a toothpick for his hell-mouth--"
What Ska said, you tasteless buffoon.
What Ska said, you tasteless buffoon.
I've tried to rid you of your unreconstructed ways, but clearly you're having none of it. Have fun with your talking onion rings.
Monkey? MONKEY! I'm a fucking gorilla, you clown!
(two themes in one!)
Squidbillies? SQUIDBILLIES!?
If you don't believe their teachings, of course, these symbolic rites can feel like insults.
It's worse than that. What if it means you get sent to a heaven you don't believe in?
That's a horrifying thought. You could be chilling with all your Viking brothers in Valhalla. Drinking, feasting, and battling. Then, all of a sudden you're surrounded by people dressed in suits that want to talk about Jesus while playing board games.
"We're going to do a play on why stealing makes you hurt inside."
That's protestant heaven. I understand Jesus went native and hangs out at Catholic heaven
Plenty of booze and girls that give good head. I can't blame him.
Spending eternity with some of the "Christians" I have known would be Hell for me.
Is it forcible ghost-conversion, or just offering the ghost the opportunity to make an informed decision about their afterlife options?
Sorry, Mormons... If you want live in your own subjective reality, then the Jews and everyone else get to live in their own subjective reality as well. Therefore, it is disrespectful if they feel disrespected.
And this has nothing to do with Romney, he's just the Mormon-of-the-moment, a tall poppy to take a swipe at.
Is it also disrespectful if a few griefers take offense at an innocent thing like putting fortune cookies in an ice cream named after a Sino-American basketball player?
Not sure I agree with the "if a group mistakenly takes offense, then it is offensive" argument, SF. Unless I misunderstood what you were getting at.
No, I'm saying that if you want to play fantasy football, you have to stick to the rules. Mormons and Jews are both playing by arbitrary rules that aren't grounded in objective reality. So if the Jews find something offensive, it is offensive. Mormons can respect that or not respect that, but telling them they aren't allowed find it offensive is a null hypothesis.
Even with the Lin situation, I feel largely the same. If you are offended by it, then you are offended by it. But nothing about it compels anyone else to be offended with you or to help you do something about the offense.
"That's offensive!!!!"
ARGUMENT WON
I find everything that everyone does offensive. Please stop immediately.
Your answer is a bit too collectivist in orientation. Who is this guy named Jew that is being offended?
And to think I was worried that some pedant might not show up.
I'm not making a pedantic argument. It's a gaping hole in yours to which I'm pointing.
Some Jews are offended. Happy now, hairsplitter?
People like you are why we can't have nice things.
People like you are why we can't have nice things.
Him, and the Jews. Mostly the Jews.
You would never have nice things even if I were dead, so don't blame it on me!
Mormons and Jews are both playing by arbitrary rules that aren't grounded in objective reality.
So are all the other grievance activists, as far a I can tell.
It comes down to whether you really care what the other person thinks/feels etc. If you care, then you'll knock off whatever you were doing that got them all sandy, because you care, not because you think you actually did something "offensive.' If you don't care, well, you just keep on.
We abuse/"offend" grievance activists around here all the time, and we know they are offended by that, and we don't stop.
Because we don't care what they think.
"It comes down to whether you really care what the other person thinks/feels etc."
Relative to whatever you're giving up by doing so. If you truly believe that failing to intercede for a deceased soul will condemn them to an eternity of torment, emptiness, oblivion, etc., someone's hurt feelings don't really matter all that much in comparison.
So if the Jews find something offensive, it is offensive.
The question is, is it reasonable for the Jews to take offense to this. No one is saying they "aren't allowed to take offense", just that they're a bunch of ninnies for doing so.
Well, I agree they are ninnies. But they, like many religions, have created an entire identify based around ninniness. Reasonableness doesn't really factor in, the whole affair is based on deeply held irrational beliefs in the first place.
I'm saying that Mormons (or any one) expressing surprise that some Jews are offended by this practice are either simpering liars or profound idiots.
I think it's just saying out loud the problem a lot of righties have with MR - his being a Mormon. Thus far, only Franklin Graham and Mike Huckabee have said it out loud but the Catholic Channel hates that about him, and the talk folks are not far behind, though they couch it in the guise of "not conservative enough".
It's not really a stretch for any of the right ideologue pundits to believe that Romney isn't conservative enough based on his record. Most of whom are not that religious.
Funny, wareagle, you claim not to be anti-Catholic but then turn around and use "Catholic" as an insult. In or out, we're not heating the whole multiverse here.
would what the group of Asian journalist did (sent a list of words and phrases that cannot be used regarding Lin) be considered Yellow Journalism?
What Sloopy said SF. I think you just unwittingly endorsed pretty much everything feministing has ever written.
No, it's actually the same way I deal with people with religious urges I disagree with. I'm sure my atheism offends some of them greatly. Some of what they do offends me greatly. But as long as they can't force me to do anything, they can huff and puff all they want.
That is true. My right to do something doesn't trump your right to be offended or dislike me for it.
I think you make a good point there. All you need for something to be offensive is for one person to be offended by it. So there is no absolute standard for offensiveness unless you are willing to accept that absolutely everything is offensive. So worrying about what is offensive and what is not is completely pointless. People get offended by all kinds of stupid crap.
That's why courts usually (with some exceptions where death is on the line) toss out the idea of speech being limited by the so-called "Heckler's veto."
Unless the speech involves Islam.
I think we need another draw Mohammad day.
That's more of a Heckler's Kill-You.
I didn't get killed last time.
As it is, this is just a symbolic act.
Um...
Fuck you, god, for making the threaded comments not work.
I just baptized you, Warty, prehumously. In the name of my god, who can kick your non-god's ass infinity times.
Your new name is Kelzarg, Lord of Density.
I just married you to Hitler's ghost. Eat that, heathen.
See, this is where you lose. You don't have a god or religion, so you can't do that. Pascal missed an opportunity by not pointing out this fallacy in the atheist credo.
I just reserved for you a room in the nice part of hell. Next to Aristotle.
Posthumous gay ghost marriage sickens me to the very core.
That why I support DOLMNFA, The Defense of Living Marriage, No Faggots Act.
You just got married to Ernst Rhoem for that, SugarFree. You Rhoemite ghost faggot.
Better him than that pig Striker.
that pig Striker
Never heard of him.
Warty is now married to his brokedown, crippled, blind, incontinent, and impotent future self. So, like, his future self from about three years from now.
I like how Penn Jillette, a hardcore atheist, puts it. If you believe your faith is the only way to salvation, it would be hateful NOT to proselytize others.
The whole part where billions of humans won't receive salvation seems like a deal-breaker for believing in a loving god.
I was raised in a fundie church, and what you said is precisely why I turned away.
If you believe in predestination, which many Christian denominations do, then God put you in the Right Place so you could be among the Saved Who Believe in Him.
(It's circular and weird, but that is the way it is taught albeit slightly dressed up.)
Even as a young boy I recognized that circular logic is circular.
...oh my. So we're all wrong?
...not if you send me a check RIGHT NOW! I can help you!
And that fact that Mormons don't believe that (part of the reason they baptize the dead), makes their beliefs more likable. All dead children go to heaven (no original sin), and every person who has ever lived will have the opportunity to be saved.
You know, I am an ordained minister. I even printed me a certificate off of the innernets that says so. My credentials really should carry more weight in these discussions, that's all I'm saying.
Ah, we have a fallback minister now, if Penn is unavailable for the S&B wedding.
Plus, I act as my own security force when I do weddings, and I have a sterling record of success. Not one single murder plots has yet succeeded at any of my weddings. Well...except for that time when it was my murder plot, but that doesn't count.
I was ordained online for some religion that worships The Big Lebowski. Not sure how much weight the printable certificate gives me.
Probably about 300 pounds.
Jimbo's too short to weigh that much, moron. I mean, how much can a 4'10" fatass weigh?
Says the 400 pound dwarf. Stop projecting, fatty.
Dwarf?!?
Oh, sorry. Pygmy.
+16lb bowling ball
You better hope they don't catch you rolling on Shabis or you will loose that certificate.
I'm a pope.
Maybe if you started exorcising trolls and posthumously baptizing them as libertarians, you'd get some respect.
Probably not though.
I keep exorcising it, but then it comes back with a new evil IP address. What do you expect out of God, a miracle?
Which is why you need to do the cut-the-hands off thing that some Wahabis believe in.
Lot harder to come back to the internets after that.
That wouldn't even slow her down, dude. She can peck at the keys with her giant birdlike beak of a nose with blinding speed. You'd have to see it to believe it.
I'm an ordained minister too (universal life church?). You are hereby all going to hell. And you are all also married.
Who the fuck cares what someone does symbolically after death. Unless it involves actual desecration of the corpse, it's nothing to get worked up over.
Seriously, if people want to get riled up about Mormonism, look into their dominance of state legislatures in Utah and Idaho and how that restricts actual liberty for the residents of those states. Dredging up idiotic shit like this diminishes the real harms Mormonism has on people.*
*Same goes for any other religious group that dominate a state or nation's political landscape and impose their dogmatic practices on those who reside there. (I'm looking at you, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Indonesia, etc.)
Sloopy, if you think Israel is anything like Saudi Arabia or Iran, you need to put down the crack pipe.
I'm guessing he means the Palestinians, not the citizens of Israel.
I would much rather live in Ramallah than Iran.
I was referring to any nation that operates as a de facto theocracy. Israel still restricts those who would do things on certain days of the week or would eat certain things. That's what the Mormons do, and that's what those other nations do, to varying degrees.
That is like comparing speeding to murder. Saudi Arabia cuts people's heads off for proselytizing or converting from Islam. You can be a Muslim in Israel.
He didn't say that, John. Just because it's not absolutely horrible doesn't mean it's not worthy of condemnation.
Ah, like South Carolina! I get it!
Factually incorrect. Israeli law doesn't restrict activity on Shabbat or require kosher food. Community norms in some places enforce this kind of thing. In other places (most of Tel Aviv), few pay attention.
It is a state that exists explicitly for the benefit of one particular religion, so it is a little bit like Saudi Arabia.
That was my point, hence the "by varying degrees" comment.
The Holy See doesn't fall into this category, by the way, since all people who live there voluntarily do so.
It's not really a religion thing but a racial thing. Atheism isn't frowned on at all by Israel, only being from a different race.
Close enough. And it's really a cultural group based on a religion more than a race. Are the black Jews and middle eastern Jews and Chinese Jews really the same race as the Ashkenazim?
In any case, I still say it makes them just a little bit like Saudi.
Although most Jews have some semitic ancestry, there are plenty of blond/blue jews indistinguishable from northern europeans. So the whole racial aspect is pretty much contrived bullshit.
Also much easier to claim victim status for a "race" than a belief system.
See Ash-Kenazim vs Sephardim for more info on this.
Only because a plurality of the Jewish Diaspora are Atheists* but quite a number of them still send checks and vote pro-Israel....
*or at least Cheeseburger & Shellfish eating agnostics
The Orthodox Jews in Israel have all kinds of strange prohibitions about women - segregated buses, access to the wailing wall, objections to billboards depicting women. They try to influence Israeli law and policy, and to some extent succeed. So, although not as bad as Saudi Arabia, they're not paragons of equality.
This isn't something they like to talk about, either. "Move along, nothing to see here."
Dredging up idiotic shit like this diminishes the real harms Mormonism has on people.
Not sure what you're saying, Sloopy. Do you mean that discussing things like this wastes time that would be better spent discussing UT's ridiculous alcohol laws, etc?
I think it's useful to expose nutjobbery like this as it lets people know that Mormons do some things which others find really offensive.
DUMB DUMB DUMB DUM DUM DUM DUMB
Not sure what you're saying, Sloopy. Do you mean that discussing things like this wastes time that would be better spent discussing UT's ridiculous alcohol laws, etc?
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. But not so much the discussion about either of the issues, but the actual infringement on liberty that gores along with their codified restriction.
Well, first you expose their nutjobbery, which is probably more offensive to people than their legislation. Then once you've discredited them you start with the concrete issues. I agree that people should only care about how they try to control other peoples' lives, not about their harmless beliefs and practices, but it don't work that way.
I don't get what the big deal is about this practice. Nobody seems to raise a fuss about Catholic priests who posthumously molest dead children.
You are on fire lately, son.
You're too kind sir. I only wish I was around this morning for Donderoooooooo's descent from Mt. ROMNIAC.
That was fun, wasn't it?
CALL MY CELL PHONE, PUSSY! OH GOD, I'M SO LONELY!
What? I was busy mid-morning and most of the afternoon. Ewik The Fakitarian made an appearance?
DONDERRROOOOOOOOOOOO
Are we sure it wasn't a spoof? He didn't challenge anyone to a fight, and I found that suspicious.
Well, Max was around earlier. So maybe Ewik is not the rare presence we believe.
I think it was real. And I think we need to send his cell phone number to rather and attach it to a fawning note about how he loves the work she does trolling hit and run. If any two people deserve each other...
Funny, he showed up over at The Agitator over the weekend to talk about sharia!!!!! coming to the US.
"Are we sure it wasn't a spoof?"
You could try calling his cell phone to find out.
Conspiracy theory of the week. Obama plans to release Blind Sheikh", Omar Abdel Rahman, in addition to 49 other Egyptian inmates held in American prisons in return for Egypt releasing the 16 Americans they are holding hostage. Not even Obama is that fucking stupid.
http://www.nationalreview.com/.....c-mccarthy
If Mitt Romney were president, he'd release them posthumously.
"We bury our people with our people...We maintain our social relationships after death as well, hence we bury Jews with Jews. We don't bury Jews with non-Jews because we don't have a social relationship with them."
Plus there are the terms of the Roman occupancy.
"The people called Romans, they go to the house??"
Does any other group besides the Joos have the ability to describe anyone who is not one of them with a single word?
infidel!!
JINX!!
Didn't think of that.
Let me rephrase the question.
Does any group that is not associated with Abraham...?
Gaijin - Literally means "outside person."
"Gaijin"
Kaiju
DBL PWN!
I call everyone who isn't me "asshole".
Asshole!
Haole (it's a Hawaiian word)
"Infidels" FTW
Amish--> English
I believe Mormons refer to non-Mormons as "gentiles."
They also call undergarments purchased in ordinary stores "Muggleshorts"
You offend me Tonio
"Heathens"
Partisans of both Team Red and Team Blue have a single word for sub-others who are unclean in their eyes.
Conservative: Liberal!
Liberal: Fascist!
Libertarian: Statist!
I'm really digging this Mormon version of proselytizing. If they're wrong, no skin off my nose and I didn't even have to put up with them preaching to me. If they're right, one day I wake up in Mormon heaven saying, "Fuck yeah! Thanks, Mormons. I bet this beats the fuck out of hell." Really, why would anyone complain about this shit?
Elie the Cannibal doing what he always does, pulls out out his righteous trump card to show the world who's the Biggest Dick.
Except for the fact that you would be completely incapable of swearing in Mormon heaven.
Can I still say "frak"? A Mormon invented that one, I think.
Depends on how many virgins we get. I have an offer from the Seventh Day Adventists for 14 of them, I wonder how high the Mormons are willing to go?
You get one virgin in Mormonism, but you have to stay married to her for an infinitely long time.
Not a big selling point among the sex variety crazed.
Get "Baptized by Proxy's" new album, "Jesus I Love You More Than Ever" at Christian book stores EVERYWHERE!
"Baptized by Proxy" > "Stryper"
Tebow > Baptized by Proxy
Back when I was a Charismatic Episcopalian, the bombing of Baghdad brought me to tears, as I imagined the number of Muslims who would die that night without having accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
I hope you were a confused kid back then, Mr. Riggs.
What made you change into an agnostic? -- that's a pretty big leap, if you axe me.
So does everyone notice how that one twat is completely absent, and it's mysteriously fun around here again? Imagine that.
What are you talking about, Epi posted some replied upthread.
Blah... *replies
That's right, bitches!
Sorry, Wartster, but I'm in the house.
Dude, I thought you were an asshole, not a twat. I get busy and I can't keep up with these things, I guess.
Definitely. I'm having fun at Sugarfree's expense for the first time in ages. I would never have that luxury with her around.
You aren't winging me up too much. For example, I haven't even bothered to elaborately insult you. Like calling you a cockring blood-blister or something.
(Don't make me smiley emoticon you.)
That's offensive! Especially since I now have trouble pulling back my foreskin after contracting a cockring blood blister rash. Seriously, what is that about? It's functionally different. Like, wtf?
You should have heeded the words of my father on his deathbed:
"Son... don't go making holes in your cock. Nothing good ever comes of it. And tell you mother she's a whore."
The only acceptable thing about having foreskin is that it pretty much looks like everyone else's when hard. Now it looks like something out of whale porn. Should I be freaking out over this?!?
You should immediately circumcise yourself with a glass cutter.
In Feministing eyes that would solve nothing. I would still have a penis.
"Programs, programs, get your programs. Can't tell the players without a program."
Sure, it isn't illegal, and doesn't do tangible harm.
Just like it isn't illegal, and doesn't do tangible harm, to start a custom and practice of writing gay furry fanfic about famous Mormons and posting it on the internet. Yiff on, Brigham Young!
The more I think about this, the more absurd it seems to take offense at this. If the Jews think that Mormons are full of crap (which presumably they do, or they would be Mormons), then their baptizing the dead is a completely empty act. In no case does it do any harm (either real or superstitious) to the dead or to their family. People can be offended by whatever they want, but that doesn't make it any less stupid.
Zeb, you said this better than I did.
Let me explain this from the Jewish perspective.
This isn't about competing belief systems. Jews have spent many centuries trying to survive as an intact religious/cultural/national group, but since the advent of competing monotheisms we have faced widespread forced conversions (most notably during the Spanish Inquisition, but that's not the only example). More recently many Jewish children were baptized so they could hide from the Nazis with Catholic families or in Catholic orphanages. So in addition to losing 1.5 million Jewish children through murder, we 'lost' thousands through opportunistic conversion, too. (cont'd)
So when Mormons posthumously baptize victims of anti-Semitic violence like Anne Frank or Daniel Pearl, from the Jewish perspective they are reproducing an aspect of that violence. Naturally, this pisses us off.
I don't care if Mormons respect what I believe. But they should respect Jewish self-identity enough not to shit all over our actual lived experience as a historically embattled religious minority.
These baptisms are egregious and obnoxious. Anne Frank and Daniel Pearl died specifically because they were Jews and the Mormons are trying to erase that. Fuck them.
If you don't believe their teachings, of course, these symbolic rites can feel like insults.
I think this only applies to other believers. All the other atheists I know find this lultastic.
And it's really telling of the religious mindset that non-Mormons find this offensive. AFAIK, every religion believes itself to be the "true" faith, and feels that other faiths are wrong to at some degree. Logically this should not be offensive, since non-Mormons believe that Mormonism is a false belief, but claiming offense is the stock in trade of the religious.
But claiming offense is the stock in trade of people.
FIFY
I will remember how atheist never claim offense the next time some atheist sues over Santa Clause.
I would definitely sue over that awful movie taking two valuable hours of my life away. Plus the three hours of projectile vomiting that followed.
If you were dumb enough to see it, you have no one but yourself to blame.
John, what's your take on this issue?
I agree with Sugar Free. The Jews have a right to be offended. But the Mormons have a right to do it. That is really all there is to it. Either way, it is not like Romney made the rule. So I think it is a big nothing.
Being offended should be considered a privilege, not a right. Wait, that is exactly what the griefers are doing. Making the right of offense sanctioned on government sponsorship.
Jews have a right to be offended, and we have a right to say they're idiots for being offended.
I thought Santa Claus was the Atheist Jesus.
No.
I didn't really think that.
In mormon heaven there really is no beer.
The only religion that I would not want to pray for me would be the Cthulhu cult, because I don't want to be eaten first.
IT'S NOT MY FAULT YOUR DELICIOUS SOUL TASTES LIKE COOL RANCH DORITOS.
I've been a sad little acolyte since they discontinued Doritos 3D.
Is It Mitt Romney's Problem that Mormons Posthumously Baptize Dead People?
Yes. When you choose to belong to a group you are complicit in the ongoing actions of that group. Just as Catholics can be rightly criticized for not holding their leadership more accountable for child sex abuse.
He could choose to condemn this practice, and gain some non-Mormon votes, but would probably lose more Mormon votes than he gained by this. Tough choice.
And then there are people who would never vote for a Mormon candidate as payback for CA Prop 8.
Life isn't fair; politics much less so.
So, even though the posthumous baptism isn't completely his fault, it's his problem.
Does that mean we're all responsible for Warty?
No. Just you.
Hey don't try to pin this shit on me. I wanted to abort him. And I still do. It's just that in this late trimester you need specialized equipment, like a ballgag and a sock full of marbles.
No staircase and no coat hanger yet made are evil enough to abort me. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You're the idiot who got pregnant with him in the first place. You never should have invited STEVE SMITH over to watch Look Who's Talking Too with you. I know you were lonely, but just hire a gigolo or something, you cheap bastard.
I am going to put a caveat, which was pointed out by a fellow Cascadian, in to my general agreement with most of the comments here:
In a sense, this is denying people their own identity - "You are an unperson of sorts if you are not received as a member of our Congregation." Given the Holocaust, the Pogroms, and the 1,000 year long practice of taking Jewish children from their families and baptising then raising the children as Christians, I can sympathise with Jews being upset by this practice.
TBS, it lies between the congregations and Romney, fairly, has no real control over it. (AFAIK, he is not one of the current Elders of the Mormon Church.)
It's not like the Mormons might seize power and implement these things on a global basis.
Hey, wait, Romney is Mormon, isn't he?
Given the Holocaust, the Pogroms, and the 1,000 year long practice of taking Jewish children from their families and baptising then raising the children as Christians, I can sympathise with Jews being upset by this practice.
"This practice" has nothing to do with those other ones.
I'm sorry, but I'm sick to death of Jews using the awful history of persecution against their ancestors (usually not they themselves) as some sort of carte blanche to take offense at everything. They need to suck up and deal, and you're not helping that process by enabling them.
So you think if the same awful thing has happened to a group of people over and over again they should just pretend like it isn't happening when someone starts doing it again, because Tulpa gets uncomfortable over legitimate grievances that might force him to examine what he always thought were clear distinctions between individual and group identity?
It's not special pleading to point to your actual history and say 'hey, fuckface, don't do shit like this to us'.
Instead of blaming Jews for making contemporary reference their (pretty fucking recent) history of persecution, why aren't you out there evangelizing to Muslims and Mormons to leave the Jews alone? Jews feel persecuted because they have been persecuted. It's not some made up shit.
But plainly they were sincere, and intended as a kindness.
I agree that the baptisms are harmless, but they certainly are profoundly insulting. I think people are right to be insulted by them regardless of how they're intended.
Basically the "kindness" here says: "We are trying to save you from your entire identity and your lifetime of error, because we are better than you and know the truth you do not."
How's Blow Me sound for that "kindness"?
Sure. But it is not like Romney is doing it. It is like holding your responsible for the acts of Eric Dondero. You are both members of the same political movement after all.
Isn't Romney a high official of his church?
I think once you're a bishop you lose your "shrug your shoulders 'cause it's just something that happens sometimes in my religion" privileges.
I don't know. I think you have to be the prophet to change anything major.
Isn't Romney a high official of his church?
No. There is one bishop per ward. There are close to 30,000 Mormon wards.
Mitt was a stake president, but there are still almost 3,000 of those.
To have any chance of influencing Church policy, you have to be one of the top 15 Church officials: The 3 person First Presidency, or a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
I deny that. He was stripped of his libertarian rights at a secret ceremony.
Fluffy's a Republican?
^^excellent^^
John, you're dead wrong. Mormonism is a top-down organization with dogma. Libertarianism is a movement. By continuing to belong and contribute, Romney is endorsing. Sorry.
Profoundly insulting? Ever heard the expression "consider the source"? Maybe these Jews need to be told it.
That's what I was thinking. I suppose there are people who think all sorts of things about me because I don't think as they do. As long as they do so passively, so what?
Basically the "kindness" here says: "We are trying to save you from your entire identity and your lifetime of error, because we are better than you and know the truth you do not."
But if you actually believe that (and I don't see how you can seriously believe in a religion like Mormonism or Christianity without thinking that you are right and other people are wrong), then it would be cruel not to. If you didn't already know that people who believe in other religions believe that your entire identity and belief system are wrong, then you need to get out more. There is no reason to be more offended by the baptisms than to be offended by the existence of religions that you don't believe in.
This^ Christianity, in general, condemns to hell those who aren't baptized. Mormons 'found' a solution to this through baptism by proxy.
Which is worse?
Ask me in the afterlife.
Earlier this month, she told the Washington Post she is now researching Romney's family history, in particular the posthumous plural marriages of his ancestors.
Got a lot of time on her hands.
Mitt's problem is that he's been running for President for a decade and he's still only just edging out "staying home and eating Doritos" as a candidate.
Eh, I believe in the liberty to not be posthumously....anythinged. Especially by Mormons.
A liberty not to be posthumously talked about? How does that work?
HEY, EVERYBODY: You know how Mormons "baptize" dead people who weren't Mormons ? including Holocaust victims ? because Mormons believe they have a right to choose Mormonism for the deceased? And you know how the Mormon Church says that being gay is a choice? The same church that doesn't think you should have a choice about being posthumously baptized? Well, now you can choose homosexuality for dead Mormons! Just go to http://www.AllDeadMormonsAreNowGay.com enter the name of a deceased Mormon or ask the site to find a dead Mormon for you, and presto! ? that dead Mormon gets to have a gay afterlife!
We believe that the spirit lives on and those who didn't have the opportunity to follow their Savior in this life should be given the opportunity to choose in the next life. We never know when a person may want to have this blessing. They can be taught in the next life and choose if they want to accept the ordinance that was done for them or not.
This has been going on too long, it's a good start but our law enforcement has a long way to go.
When someone hides behind religion to do or say something that is wrong we should stand up and point it out (right the wrong).
When I was a kid I lived in Utah, and the Boy Scouts was taken over by Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS Church). This, so called religion, practices underage polygamy, they send the boy s off on missions to divide the underage sisters among the dirty old men of the clan. Now when these underage girls get pregnant, these same dirty old men, send them to the state to get their welfare checks. You should see some of the palace homes that are paid with welfare checks. By the way this is the newest religion that was created right here in United States of America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iisl-xH3Xs