Who's Afraid of Friedrich Hayek?
The Nobel-winning economist has got modern critics running scared.
I'm sensing some panic in the air. Certain people seem mighty concerned that other people are…discovering Hayek. As a W. S. Gilbert character might say, Oh horror!
Economics and business reporter David Warsh is getting much attention for suggesting that F. A. Hayek, far from being one of the two most prominent economists of the 1930s—the other being Keynes—is rather more like the woman who was thought to have won the Boston marathon in 1980 when in fact she had joined the race, mostly unnoticed, a half-mile from the finish line.
Hayek's fans "have jumped a caricature out of the bushes late in the day and claim that their guy ran a great race," Warsh writes. "But the fact remains that Hayek just didn't contribute very much to the development of technical economics," he continues.
Warsh, whom we may judge by the fact that he calls The Road to Serfdom "an embarrassment," nonetheless does have some positive things to say about the 1974 Nobel Prize laureate: "With the publication of 'The Use of Knowledge in Society' in the American Economic Review in 1945, he essentially won on the 'calculation debate,' conducted with Ludwig von Mises and Oscar Lange, concerning the possibility of central planning."
Considering how many respectable economists favored central planning—essentially the abolition of spontaneous competitive markets—until fairly recently, that would seem to be no mean feat. And there's more:
[I]t is pleasing to think that Hayek himself may yet turn out to have been a very great economist after all, far more significant than [Gunnar] Myrdal or [Joan] Robinson, when seen against the background of a broader canvas. The proposition that markets are fundamentally evolutionary mechanisms runs through Hayek's work. [Bruce] Caldwell, of Duke University, notes that, starting with the Constitution of Liberty, "the twin ideas of evolution and spontaneous order" become prominent, especially the idea of cultural evolution, with its emphasis on rules, norms, and decentralization.
These are today lively concepts in laboratories and universities around the world. "It could have been that Hayek was running a different race, and the fact that he didn't do well in the [mainstream] Walrasian race was that he wasn't running in it -- he was running in the complexity race," says David Colander, of Middlebury College. Hayek may yet enter history as a prophet of evolutionary economics, a discipline dreamt of since the days of Thorstein Veblen and Alfred Marshall in the late nineteenth century but not yet forged, whose great days lie ahead. [Emphasis added.]
In other words, maybe Hayek's critics judge him by an inappropriate standard. We'll get back to this.
(Article continues below video.)
Krugman Pile-on
As Jacob T. Levy surmises, not everyone eager to dismiss Hayek as a lightweight read Warsh's post to the end. Take Paul Krugman, ever ready to trash anyone who doubts that Keynes was the fount of all wisdom:
David Warsh finally says what someone needed to say: Friedrich Hayek is not an important figure in the history of macroeconomics.
These days, you constantly see articles that make it seem as if there was a great debate in the 1930s between Keynes and Hayek, and that this debate has continued through the generations. As Warsh says, nothing like this happened. Hayek essentially made a fool of himself early in the Great Depression, and his ideas vanished from the professional discussion….
[T]he Hayek thing is almost entirely about politics rather than economics. Without The Road To Serfdom — and the way that book was used by vested interests to oppose the welfare state—nobody would be talking about his business cycle ideas.
Hayekians Strike Back
The Hayekian wing of the blogosphere (which really has nothing to do with the right wing) has responded in force, and properly so. A common theme is that Hayek furnished the grounds for a proper skepticism about macroeconomics, the branch of economics launched by Keynes that treats large statistical aggregates (demand, unemployment, and so on) as though they were concrete entities that interact with each according to fixed quantitative rules rather than historical "summations" of individual purposeful actions in a particular institutional context. As Hayek wrote, "Mr. Keynes' aggregates conceal the most fundamental mechanisms of change." (See Steven Horwitz's "Mr. Keynes's Aggregates.")
George Mason University professor Peter Boettke at Coordination Problem wrote:
Hayek's influence in modern economics is ubiquitous, even if sadly modern economics is not as Hayekian as I would like it to be. Information economics, theories of dynamic competition, equilibrium theory of the business cycle, and complexity theory all owe a debt to Hayek's economic contributions. The work on legal origins owes a debt to Hayek's work on law and political-social philosophy as well. Hayek impacts the DNA of economics and political economy to such an extent that many are unaware of the pervasive influence. . . .
The final problem I have with both Krugman and Warsh is that they don't actually consult the historical record and the accounts of those who were there in the 1930s when the battle was engaged or the direct citation evidence from post-WWII thinkers…. Instead they rely on impressionistic accounts from their education and discourse communities, and cherry pick from recent journalistic histories of economics.
Back with a Vengeance
And there's this from GMU professor Alex Tabarrok at Marginal Revolution:
It is true that many of Hayek's specific ideas about business cycles vanished from the mainstream discussion under the Keynesian juggernaut but what Krugman and Warsh miss is that Hayek's vision of how to think about macroeconomics came back with a vengeance in the 1970s….
Hayek was an important inspiration in the modern program to build macroeconomics on microfoundations.
Tabarrok notes that "in an interesting exercise David Skarbek finds that Hayek is cited by other Nobel laureates in their Nobel talks more than any other Nobel laureate with the exception of [Kenneth] Arrow."
GMU's Russ Roberts responded this way at Café Hayek:
Was Hayek an important macroeconomist? I would argue that the macroeconomic skepticism of the later Hayek is more valuable than the macroeconomic theorizing of the early Hayek. But he wasn't an important macroeconomist in the mainstream sense of the title. So what? That's a badge of honor. He was merely a great economist, without any prefix.
Rejecting the Rules
There are others, but I will close with a post from New York University's Mario Rizzo at ThinkMarkets, one of the most perceptive people I know. Remember the remark above that "It could have been that Hayek was running a different race"? That's Rizzo's take.
I think the real issue is this. Hayek's approach attacks, root-and-branch, the macroeconomic way of thinking. It is not simply a challenge to a particular theory of the determinants of mass unemployment, inflation, business cycles and the like. Hayek is not accepting the rules of the game or the parameters of the sub-discipline of modern macroeconomics….
In short, he does not want to focus on aggregate spending and aggregate consequences. Hayek's approach says: Let us pierce the veil of aggregates and look at the distortive effects on relative prices and relative output produced by boom-time credit expansions. Let us look at the distortive effects that booms leave us as we work our way through a recession. . . .
Suffice it to say this greatly erodes the intellectual capital of a field of economics—although one not noted for its successes. It mocks the claim that Keynes was a true revolutionary in economic thought. It opens the possibility that he was muddled, inconsistent and unaware of the contributions to monetary and business cycle theory made by the "classical economists" on the eve of the General Theory.
(By cutting out many details, I have not done these blog posts justice. Follow the links for the particulars.)
Hayek was important politically for demonstrating the practical social necessity of individual freedom. But he is just as important for what he taught us about markets: namely, that they provide the only way for human beings to overcome their individual deficiencies in knowledge, which would otherwise keep them from flourishing through social cooperation and the division of labor.
Sheldon Richman is editor of The Freeman, where this article originally appeared.
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I am not a fan of Hayek because he endorses my views as a libertarian. I got into libertarian philosophy because I found Hayek's work to be much more well researched, supported and convincing than Keynes. That got me into Mises and Rothbard, and so on. I don't think any of Hayek's detractors have really read Hayek's work. They just know for a fact that their central planning is the best idea so no one who says otherwise should be taken seriously.
Also, the Austrian school is the only one that holds up through the great filter of history. Keynesianism is demonstrably false. His supporters just say it needs tweaking, which is ever the work of statists.
there will be some major tweaking come November 2012...
All science is a tweaking process. Are you suggesting that the Austrians found the one true economic system complete and pure? Much more likely that it's a crackpot religion. Economies are complicated things. It is inevitable that a usefully methodological approach to economics will be in a constant state of improvement.
"a crackpot religion" like progressivism?
Heretic!!!
I was talking about economic schools, but thank you for the contribution. One of Glenn Beck's farts would be proud.
I don't listen to Beck. Never have liked him.
Nice try, though.
I can't say if it's true, but most likely he doesn't listen to me, as I'm too much of a big-government cheerleader for his tastes.
You think you're big-government, Beck? I eat punks like you for breakfast.
Literally.
The Austrians say economics is not a science at all. This is one of the things wrong with "the science" of economics.
I know, they say it's magic.
Like how going back to the 39.6% top tax rate, is magic?
No that would be a practical means of accomplishing the goal of raising revenues.
What's the practical purpose of leaving tax rates where they are?
...your Team is just going to shovel the extra revenues into the furnace.
So the only way to pay down deficits is not to pay down deficits?
...don't make MORE deficits, live on what comes in, and stop passing the fucking hat in the name of "fairness",
Oh, and freeze spending for the next several years. Not a "cut" - that would be "we're going to spend less money in total next year than we spent last year" - just no increases in the current budget. Copy and paste that budget, and follow it - hell, there might even be room to trim a billion or so here and there, just to make it look like we give a fuck.
Thus, no need to raise rates.
All this from people you don't even trust to use revenues to pay down deficits?
And we're choosing a totally arbitrary budget to copy for what purpose?
What's so hard about paying for the things we want to buy? Also, what's so hard about you admitting that your primary motivation is not fiscal but ideological? You want to do away with certain programs but are using silly Republican party talking points to avoid talking about it. You're among friends here and aren't running for office, you can admit what you want to do. Just don't pretend that what you want to do is the inevitable result of budget reality.
Why is ANY budget anything but "arbitrary"?
If I ask you "what, aren't we spending enough now?", you'll likely say "hell, no" or some variation thereof. Isn't what YOU ask, therefore, arbitrary?
Fuck. How can it cost anywhere near a trillion fucking dollars a year, to run this country?
Because we have to pay for national defense, old people's healthcare, and various other things. What are you upset about? Is it really the number of dollars?
It is simply fact that of the things that caused our current budget deficit, the most responsible policy choices were the Bush tax cuts that weren't offset, wars that weren't paid for, and a collapse of tax revenue resulting from a deep recession.
You pay that down either by asking poor grandmothers to give up healthcare or by asking non-poor people to pay a modest amount more in taxes. If you were able to justify that choice on any moral or practical grounds you wouldn't have to resort to mindless distractions like psychobabble about envy or fatalism about politicians.
It was five cents on the dollar, Tony. Don't tell us we can't NOT increase spending NEXT year, five cents on the dollar.
Depends on what we need to pay for. Whether poor grandmothers get healthcare benefits is more important to me than picking a random dollar amount from a hat and pretending it's sacrosanct.
This is like the worst chat room ever.
Actually, if you look at last century's record for top tax brackets, taxing the rich at incredibly high rates in the highest income tax bracket doesn't produce drastically different revenue.
See here: http://reason.com/blog/2010/11.....e-amount-o
If your choices to deal with the deficit are either grandmothers giving up health care, or non-poor people paying "a modest amount more in taxes," then I'm afraid grandma's going to have to lose her health care.
I support taxing the rich. Let's go ahead and tweak the higher tax bracket. Then, after that doesn't work, maybe we can address the problem with serious, adult solutions.
I don't quite understand why taxes are being discussed as though the government seriously intends to use them to solve our problems (i.e. the ones it created).
^see, this is called paying attention...
"You pay that down either by asking poor grandmothers to give up healthcare or by asking non-poor people to pay a modest amount more in taxes."
They pay taxes now....so Do tell pray tell what is modest in your mind? And how does anyone know what "modest" is in DC?
If it ain't Flat taxed at 15% top to bottom personal and corporate than please STFU. No returns for anything other than medical expense or research and development costs if your poor work more or move in with family ( I know Tony you hate that one). This with a BALANCED budget amendment with a debt reduction to ZERO by 2025 and a clause that to be overridden it must pass a 66% vote by congress / senate / AND the people. Anything less is just kicking the can down the road Tony.
"What's so hard about paying for the things we want to buy?"
First of all, what do you mean by "we"? Second, to answer your question - Maybe because the things we've wanted to buy are too damn expensive and it's time to recalibrate expectations. When people - and nations - continue to finance a lifestyle that is beyond their means, going broke is inevitable. With this one sentence you have successfully encapsulated the deeply flawed liberal mentality about money, debt and finance. When you hit the wall, the answer isn't to flail about looking for new forms of financing an already bloated debt. You cut back. This is so simple. You are stuck in a sub-prime mentality - lets live beyond our means because we have the right to live beyond our means, dammit!
Yes we are funding a lifestyle we can no longer afford--the unprecedented luxury of the rich.
We can keep them in unprecedented luxury and still pay for healthcare for poor grandmothers. There's no reason why we couldn't.
Luxury of the rich? So Tony wants us to return to the good old days when the rich lived in comparative squalor?
Maybe politicians should start paying for their own luxuries? Maybe they should bring their own furniture and pay for their own parties at that big White House? Ya know, like our best Presidents did.
I have a real hard time paying attention to Democrats telling me how to spend my income while I'm paying for Pelosi's heavy anti-depressant regime and Obama's perpetual party liquor tab. You get Pelosi to consider halving her monthly crack tab, then you might convince some people to pay to fix your penis and 'lasting' issues.
Since you love poor Grandmothers YOU can pay for her I have none left.
i think the rich fund themselves for the most part dipshit.
Um, in "Washington-speak," a "Spending Cut" doesn't mean a real "cut" --- it means "A decrease in the rate of increase."
I.e. to a Congresscritter, a "spending cut" really means that some program only gets a 2% increase when everything else is getting a 3% increase.
Thus, your proposal of a "freeze" actually represents a =FAR= more drastic "cut" than nearly _anyone_ in Washington would ever _dream_ of considering!
The first step in filling a hole is: STOP DIGGING, DUMBASS!
No that would be a practical means of accomplishing the goal of raising revenues.
Revenues that would allow the government to hire me after which I'll have to do nothing more demanding than plan my fabulous dinner parties.
At last!! A faux Tony that's different from the "real" Tony.
No that would be a practical means of accomplishing the goal of raising revenues.
So that's what I've been doing wrong! All this time I've been worried about providing goods and services in exchange for financial compensation, when what I should have been doing is taxing people! Doh!
Well, time to get my tax enforcement team together and armed. Tony, you owe me about 10 years worth of back taxes. I need more revenue.
"I know, they say it's magic."
As George Tony Costanza might say: "Don't talk to me about building absurd strawmen, I invented absurd strawmen."
(1)Old people = richest demographic in our country
(2)Young minorities = poorest demographic in our country
Tony votes for people that take money from group 2(and throws them in jail under the new puritanism, i.e. the drug war) and gives it to people in group 1, and wants to lecture us on morality?
He'd gladly march over the bones of the poor and elderly if it meant a democratic victory.
He's fucking scum, plain and simple.
^THIS^ X Infinity.
And you vote for people who never win elections? Or don't vote but still feel entitled to bitch? Exactly what are you criticizing? Every political choice I've made reflects, in part, my strong opposition to our drug policies. I am against both parties' platforms on that matter.
Nice strawman, Tony.
In the Austrian view, an economy is an emergent phenomena, not unlike an ecosystem or a snowflake. Furthermore, when we are dealing with an economy, we are dealing with a heterogeneous lot of people, each of whom has a unique set of preferences, knowledge, and the like.
The mainstream econ conceit is to package capital, labor, inputs, and outputs into discrete and neat homogeneous units. While this may seem to help with theorizing, it bears little resemblance to reality and is akin to conducting an auto study by assuming all black cars are the same (i.e. - there is no qualitative difference between a black 2011 Bentley sedan and a black 2011 subcompact Kia) or assuming that all cars are black. Obviously, just as all black cars have qualitative differences, labor and capital have qualitative differences in the form of skill sets and time preferences respectively.
To put this in another way, an identity like the Keynesian Cross Equation may be psychologically satisfying to the lay person, but by divorcing itself from the heterogeneous microfoundations of economics (remember - economics is supposed to be about the effects of incentives and disincentives on an individual's or group's actions) it is inherently compromised by the fact that it is oversimplifying and overgeneralizing to such a degree that it is not remotely describing anything that exists in the real world.
One further point: most economists left, right, 'centrist', Marxist, libertarian, whatever, are infected and guided by confirmation bias. Many economists of all stripes and persuasions try their best to be 'objective', but all too many let their own predispositions and world views to guide their research, taint the results of their 'scientific' research, which then strengthens their pre-existing biases. In that light, I think that it is a folly to label such a body of work as being 'Science'.
Perhaps, but it should be as scientific as possible. Otherwise we're just picking from random ideas. Pointing out the limits of our understanding is fine, but then what? Obviously you work to increase that understanding. It's not like Austrians don't advocate for policies. They're just basing them on a supposedly complete theory while pretending that evidence doesn't matter (which usually makes for a very bad theory).
People with small minds see knowledge as a battle between competing ideologies. But it's not like that, it's not Austrians vs. Keynesians. The former remain their strict and dogmatic selves, and the latter make up what is known as modern economics, something more complicated and more quantified than what Keynes originally talked about. It's progressed in a science-like fashion even if it's still incomplete.
But this all misses the bigger point. Since the study of economics is primitive, and since what matters most of all is the well-being of people, an experimental application of our best knowledge to that end, even if it is inconsistent, is preferable to applying a blunt structure and hoping it works out eventually.
Libertarian economists apply the tried and true methods of snake oil salesmen everywhere. Voice skepticism about all knowledge, then claim to be the one true source of knowledge.
"Libertarian economists apply the tried and true methods of snake oil salesmen everywhere. Voice skepticism about all knowledge, then claim to be the one true source of knowledge."
That is the kettle calling the pot Black!
So because you want to "help" poor Grandma's your smarter......Right!
Just more moral.
So, morality is measured by intentions? There's a religious idea.
I assert that the poor and sick and whoever-else-you-care-about are better taken care of in my version of society than yours. Viola! I'm as moral as you are.
"I assert that the poor and sick and whoever-else-you-care-about are better taken care of in my version of society than yours. Viola! I'm as moral as you are"
Yea that is how "It" looks at it. And some how so does all of the Democratic party.
not even close. a more moral man would want others to give of their own volition and the kindness of their hearts instead of having it distributed for them against their own will. you're not moral, you're an asshole who wants the government to legislate morality through government sactioned alms. go fuck yourself
"Are you suggesting that the Austrians found the one true economic system complete and pure? "
No the point is, macroeconomics are currently in the darkages. Things are things because we say they are. Never mind the fact that all actions taken following such concept has FAILED.
Well you just didn't do it right.. is often the reply. Here we come to the enlightenment.
Austrian economics says NO ONE can do it right, see the future. Its like the scientific method, a principle to live by. The root of Hayek's later works is that no one, group, king, or congress has the ability to correctly understand the market becuase the market is the interaction of millions of people's individual choices.
Its an infallible position.
Do also note criticism of Hayek's business cycle is quite entertaining seeing as the last one Keynes progress Hayek destroyed but Keynes' own admission.
Positions of the Austrian principles are not perfect. Can be modified, but thats their point. No one can know, see, or solve everything. And Macroeconomics attempts to do this; assume more than is possible to know.
There is only one reality, and, in the question of who proffers the most accurate interpretation, I think libertarians and Austrians are way ahead of the collectivists.
Economics exists outside of theory, it emerges from the human effort to rectify the supply of a needed or desired good or service with the demand for that good or service. Because each individual human being has their own unique wants and need, the economy is fundamentally governed at the individual level and not the aggregate level.
Your post suggests that Hayekian and Keynsian economics are both economic structures that we may choose to implement as a national economic policy. The fact is, Hayek is describing, as best as anyone can, the complexities of the natural state of economics, whereas Keyensian economics implies that central planning, by way of artificial stimulation of the various aggregated properties of economics will result in a more favorable economy. Hayekian economics is not something government can implement because it is the natural state of the world.
Since economic decisions are made by individuals, in order to satisfy individual needs, one would have to controll every single individual decision in order to control the economy.
A good example of the futility of trying to manipulate economic decisions at a macro level can be seen in the governments efforts to get people to buy more hybrids and electric cars. The government assumes that people will buy green vehicles if they are properly incentivized to do so, so they offer tax breaks to those who buy green vehicles and they go out of their way to push companies like GM to build electric cars, thereby increasing the supply of green cars. What they fail to see is that my choice to buy a particular vehicle is not based on the availability of tax credits, it's not based on MPG, saving the planet or anything the government might think I want. I bought my Jeep Wrangler, because it is fun to drive, it handles snow well and it is compact. My cousin bought a large SUV because it is good for hauling kids all over town to their various activities and it holds a lot of cargo. My neighbor bought a fucking fire engine red Corvette because he thinks it will get him laid. The people who do buy green cars would have bought them regardless of whether or not there is a tax credit.
The evidence that Keynsian economics has failed as a model for central planning is all around you. The government has used "quantitative easing" twice and along with the various stimulous programs and bailouts, it has given away or simply printed trillions of dollars, yet unemployment has been largely stagnant. Businesses do not expand simply because they have money. They expand for any number of reasons that are unique to them. Each and every business in this country has its own set of books, it's own market, it's own strengths and weaknesses and an unimaginable amount of other factors ranging from the owners love interests to the local weather that can influence whether or not a business expands. That is why central planners do not create jobs and they cannot create economic growth because they cannot influence these individual factors in the least.
So it's a science? No, it "exists outside of theory" so it must be something else. An assertion? A guess about the physical composition of economies?
Actually, it's very much prescriptive. It claims that an economy is an allegedly natural state produces the best outcomes (or at least that attempts to mitigate its problems will only result in more problems). That is policy prescription, not scientific description, and any claims to the latter ought to be met with the highest skepticism since it apparently eschews evidence and claims to be on some plane higher than scientific theory. Remind you of another kind of human thought?
It's a description of reality, as in, it is an observation. The whole reason why attempts to manipulate the economy are doomed for failure is because of the complexity of the interactions that make up the economy.
If you wanted to predict the economy, you would not be able to account for every single variable, because every decision and action is made, and always will be made at the individual level regardless of efforts to prevent it from happening. Each individual decision and action is motivated and influenced by a lot of factors, nearly all of which are only known to the individual. This is not theory, this is observed FACT. Please feel free to explain how this is not fact. Please feel free to explain how anybody could possibly predict or even control the economic actions of every single individual involved in the economy. These so called "aggregates" are simply observations as well. We do not have a description of every single factor that contributed to the observed result, so how is it we can simply conclude that we know how those observed results came about? The problem here is that when we try to influence a complex system without knowing how all of the variables are going to respond, we are flipping switches indiscriminately. If our efforts to "correct" the economy ammount to little more than random noise, then the effort in itself is unproductive. If our efforts create some kind of reaction how do we know it will be a positive reaction and how do we know that the positive reaction will be sustainable or even healthy in the long run?
If these "stimulative" measures are so fucking great for the economy, why don't we just have a stimulus every single month!
You've reached the brain of Tony. He can't answer your questions right now because his head is burried in the DNC's ass. Please leave a message, even though it (as well as observed fact) will be willfully ignored at all costs. Long live the Democratic Party. Long live Keynes.
This is a scientific claim. Something akin to a chaos theory of economics. I'd love to see some of the research done to justify this claim.
Or is this particular theory above evidence, like other religions?
A demand-based approach to economic policy (with full employment being the ultimate goal of any policy) seems to be the most successful model. It's likely that there is much more to learn, but the fact that your supply-side stuff has never delivered should cause us to reject it.
"This is a scientific claim. Something akin to a chaos theory of economics. I'd love to see some of the research done to justify this claim"
USSR
North Korea
Cuba
That is three strikes.
weak
Show me 3 that work then.
Every country in the world you'd ever want to live in has a mixed economy. The best by many metrics have more "socialism" than the US.
Answer the question duche.
Just because your "metrics" are "better" that does not mean I or any true American will ever give up any ounce of Freedom for your "metrics" just so your "morals" feel better Tony.
You want proof of what exactly? Proof that the multitude of variables that influence the economy are so vast and complex that they are chaotic? Here is a simple experiment. Try and guess what my last economic action was and even if you guess right, do you know what influenced my decision? Do you know where the action took place? Do you know who was compensated because of my decision? Do you know where I got the money, or resources used to facilitate that action? Hell, I can barely figure out half of those things.
When I say that these are observed facts, I use the term OBSERVED purposefully. If we could catalogue every inaction that makes up a chaotic system, then IT WOULD NOT BE A CHAOTIC SYSTEM. When you observe events in a complex system, such as the economy, which is driven by almost seven billion people, the weather (itself a chaotic system) the availability of resources, the demand of resources and every other possible influence, most of which we cannot predict, then you are observing chaos. You can see something happen, like a stock market crash, and you can draw conclusions about how that event may have occurred, but you can only really ever consider "aggregate" information. Just because you see an aggregate effect and you think you know how it happened, doesn't mean you actually know how to replicate it or even avoid it through "stimulative" action. Central planning of an economy is the attempt to control every single economic decision down to the individual level. This is impossible for the very simple reason that each individual acts with their own free will.
If the market is not chaotic, then I would like you to proove that to me. If you can predict the economy, then why the hell don't you just fucking tell the President what you know instead of pissing into the wind here.
If stimulous were so good for the economy and always has a predictable result, then I ask again, why not just do it all the time?
However imperfect our knowledge about economies is, it's not totally imperfect. We figured out how to break vicious cycles of weak demand and joblessness in the 40s. The latest stimulus worked exactly as intended--though it wasn't enough to return to normal growth.
Government doesn't need to always be spending just for the sake of stimulus, but it will always be a large part of the economy, a customer like any other. It can be used to fill a gap in demand when the private sector economy is in a downturn.
The government has legitimate and arguably productive purpose in providing a legal system that maintains the general stability of the society, but that sort of economic activity is not generally considered economic "stimulus". There is a practical limit to the number of police officers and FBI agents and judges a society can have. If everyone worked for the government, where would the money come from to pay these people?
Keynesian economics tries to "stimulate" the economy by somehow placing money into people's hands, but the problem is that in order to place money into people's hands, it first must get money from someplace else. If they print the money, then all they are doing is devaluing the currency, which means that people just have to work harder for the same dollar. If they tax people to get the money, then they are taking money out of the economy, washing it through a huge bureaucracy and then putting it back in, minus whatever got consumed in the bureaucracy. If they borrow the money, then that at some point they will have to pay it back with interest, which means more taxes and or more printing. If there was a demand for whatever it is the government is trying to create with this money, then there would have been no need to stimulate the economy because somebody would have happily met the demand already. A good example of this is the so called "shovel ready jobs". Most of these projects were already in the planning stage hence "shovel ready" so therefore they were in demand and therefore already in the budget. The government paid money for things that were already in progress, it didn't cate anything new. There was no demand for anything outside of these projects, so why would anyone bother starting a new project if nobody wants it? So let's consider what happened here. The government took money from tax payers, who might have used the money to satisfy their own needs, which would have been economic activity in its own right and gave it away so that it could be spent on something that was already going to be built anyway. If the government had built something that was not in demand, then they would have been using it to no practical ends. If it were a simple matter of handing every unemployed person in the country a shovel and paid them to dig as deep as they can, what practical good would that serve? What does this effort create? It creates a deep hole, which has no practical value because nobody wanted a deep hole to begin with. Yes, we paid these people a shit load of money, and for a time, they were employed, but we took the money away from one person, who could have used it to create something of value and gave it to someone who was doing nothing of value.
We figured out how to break vicious cycles of weak demand and joblessness in the 40s
Yea that was called WWII and we were the only fuctioning economy left.
So your going to try and sell us that your Hero FDR saved the modern world?
You realize you just admitted that massive state intervention was what took up slack in the labor market right?
Just checking.
Are you suggesting that Newton discovered the laws of motion pure and true?
The ASE doesn't make claims that it can't support like mainstream macroeconomics. There are no claims made by ASE that have been falsified. Now it is true they don't say asinine things like we can fix the economy by a fiscal stimulus of 2.35T, which never works anyway.
Keynesians say you can borrow your way out of debt. Keynesians say you can inflate your way out of a recession.
Making claims you can't support, and which never eventuate, is the hallmark of religion.
It's the Krugmans of the world who are telling us how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin.
Because both aggregate spending and aggregate demand are based on arbitrary sets that are delimited by political boundaries, i.e. countries. This is so amazingly stupid that I cannot fathom how it has lasted so long. It is like a biologist studying the effects of all the zebra meat all lions eat inside Zimbabwe as if that mattered at all in the understanding of the biology and hunting habits of lions.
Economic aggregates are like taking a picture on safari and reducing it to a light meter and hue readings.
Macro economics is taking the light meter and hue readings from a photo in africa and comparing them to like readings from a photo in Alaska and then saying that Alaska would be Africa if they could get the light intensity up a few points and shift the hue towards red by a few points.
No, it's like a biologist studying populations of lions in addition to individual lions.
Do you suppose a complete picture of the biology of lions can be found by ignoring the behavior of groups of lions?
Political boundaries are arbitrary, but they affect macroeconomic realities. Nobody said describing aggregate demand in a certain polity is all there is to know, but it is not useless information.
Since September 11th, the courageous acts of countless Americans have set a new standard for the nation. Indeed, a new American spirit has been forged. That sprit is characterized by sacrifice, humility, and a refusal to quit in the face of adversity. At a time when our entire country is banding together and facing down individualism, the Patriots set a wonderful example, showing us all what is possible when we work together, believe in each other, and sacrifice for the greater good.
That example came from the top, and it came from the start of the season. Choosing to be introduced before the game as a team, not as individuals, the Patriots set the tone for their victory. Coach Bill Belichick stressed teamwork, saying that only by working together could the Patriots overcome their opponent, the best team in the NFL's regular season, the St. Louis Rams.
facing down individualism
As in:
Liberalism and individualism do not coexist.
...Kennedy hated the concept of individualism. Most liberals share that philosophy.
Because football works best when everyone acts as individuals and nobody coordinates with anyone else.
Libertarians project their own dogmatism on others. Believing that some good things must be achieved through pooling resources doesn't mean you have to completely negate the value of the individual.
In fact, the strongest individualism requires that people have the freedom to pool resources as they see fit.
"people have the freedom to pool resources as they see fit"
Not when it's mandatory.
...Tony's posting again.
How else do large groups of people pool resources without some mandates?
You live on a planet of 7 billion people and want to claim a sovereignty you fought no wars to win and wish to contribute no effort to secure. You want the biggest handout imaginable. Nothing done by large groups of people can be accomplished with total unanimity. To expect to always get your way is childish.
act voluntarily
act voluntarily
Clueless straw man slayer.
Well, if you mandate that I contribute something, you are going to have to come and take it by force. I believe that is how wars are started.
Individuals may go to war with other individuals, but only governments are dumb enough to go to war with entire countries. Because a government cannot feal the fear of death, commitment to an endeavor that will likely result in mass casualty is not so much a consideration of life and death, but rather for what its leaders, who won't be participating in the war, deem to be for the "greater good".
In a world of individuals, individuals may voluntarily work together to defend their natural rights to life, property and free expression and association from those who would attempt to deny these freedoms by force. Self defense extends naturally to the defense of those around you because your rational self interests are best served through VOLUNTARY cooperation with others.
In other words, if you mandate that people do something "for the greater good" it is not being given freely because you must enforce compliance with violence. Since other countries may not have the same mandates, or any mandates at all, it is quite possible for their values to transgress upon your little attempt at utopia and it may instigate individuals to resist your mandate. How long do you think the wise and all knowing central planners will allow this outside influence to persist? How long do you think it will take the central planners to determine that the best way to eliminate the threat of this outside influence is to assimilate them into the cult of the benevolent mandate?
I'd prefer the war between the Hatfields and the Mccoys over the war between nuclear armed governments any day, because the Hatfield and McCoys keep it between themselves.
How else do large groups of people pool resources without some mandates?
Ever seen a "hippy" commune Dumb a$$?
To expect to always get your way is childish.
You are indicting Progressivism;)
How else do large groups of people pool resources without some mandates?
Voluntarily. Most coordination happens with no coerceion at all. The profit derived from my desire combined with many others desire, for shoes, or phones, big macs, or toasters results in massive and myriad resource shifts and puts those objects in stores for the convenience of me and thousands of others that shop at my same big box or fast food restaurant.
No one in that process was mandated to provide a resource or labor.
So umm, yes. Almost everything can be accomplished by large groups without mandates. Unanimity may or may not occur, but unanimity is not required nor beneficial.
The efficiency of an organization is not related to size linearly.
...you know full well why Teddy used the football analogy... it was an excuse to bitch-slap the concept of the individual.
Case. Fucking. Closed.
...where do you draw the line on forced collectivism? Or IS there a line?
I don't draw the line because I'm not king. People draw their own line through democratic action. You want to draw it at armies and police and contract enforcement, fine, but that's not the slightest bit more legitimate than anyone else's idea of where it should be drawn.
...you are not a king.
At what point would you NOT want collectivist action?
Where there is no utility in it.
...since virtually every choice a person makes, no matter how insignificant, can affect the life of another... how can you in good conscience _not_ insist on _less_ freedom?
"Where there is no utility in it."
You mean the "utility" of running the economy into the ground trying to pay for unaffordable social programs? Very utilitarian.
Utility for who? Utility for the 51% (voting majority) to steal from the 49%. Are you actually going to stand their in broad daylight and claim it's moral to take as much as you want from the minority as long as the majority agrees it's okay?
Tony you and your ilk are the epitome of evil. Your greed and envy are astounding. You are one of the most immoral people I've ever had the dissatisfaction of having associated with. And what's worse, is you have the audacity to claim the moral high ground.
No better way of putting it, Frank.
Where there is no utility in it.
A true utilitarian cares about results. You are not a utilitarian, you are an idealist who deludes himself into thinking he's practical.
'Utility' for you is defined by the ability of government to take action. You don't have any independent idea of what goal that action should be used towards. That means you have to figure it out on the way and to solve that you need government power to always be paramount over the individual.
That doesn't make you a utilitarian. That makes you an idealist.
So basically, you are a fan of Rousseau? Fuck Rousseau.
"but that's not the slightest bit more legitimate than anyone else's idea of where it should be drawn."
This is starting to get very philosophic. I assert that the lines drawn in the US are more legitimate than the lines drawn by the Khemer Rouge. Based on ideas of human rights and objectively analyzing outcomes.
You can claim equivalent legitimacy for everyone's ideas of forced collectivism, but we can make a strong case for disagreement.
For Tony there is no line as long as every Granny in the world has health care.
Maybe the individual has been emphasized too much. You expect everyone to bow at the altar of the individual, to the extent of treating collective action as a satanic force.
But as I said, your definition of individualism greatly restricts individual agency--you forbid them from making many of the choices for themselves that were made to make up modern civilization.
...if individuals want to shitcan their identities and be worker drones in a hive, they're free to make that choice.
I am sooooo wet right now...
We keep an eye on individualists... we have lots and lots of files on those filthy bastards. Oh, yes, we do.
And when the time comes, we'll give them what they deserve.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson owned people.
Yes, I did. Your ancestors may have owned people, too.
Which was utilitarian on his part. Given the time and place Jefferson lived in, he never would have had any political influence if did not own slaves. Utlitarianism is always a compromise with evil and someone who claims to be one discrediting a historical figure for a moral compromise is amusing.
"Thomas Jefferson owned people."
With the full legitimization of the US government and it's democratic process.
And WE can't wait until we get to be in charge when those filthy freedom-lovers get what's comin' to them!
Not if WE impose martial law first!
ARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARF'
"you forbid them from making many of the choices for themselves"
So, we can't opt out of Obamacare?
Yep, for a small fee.
Wich will go unpaid.
...courtesy of the interwebs:
http://mwillett.org/Politics/freedom.htm
A "small" fee? Shit, you just wait!
And it's not just the freedom to pool resources, but what you pool them for, that contribute to individual liberty. Universal defense and, say, healthcare add security to individual lives. They help maximize individual freedom in a real way.
Your version of individualism is to say that one very lucky individual is entitled to enjoy the maximum of human freedom even at the expense of most other people. His excess luxuries are more worthy of protection than someone else's basic necessities.
That's not really an expression of individualism so much as a collective decision to protect one interest over another. I don't see much advocacy for individual property rights enforcement. No you guys like having me pay for the men with guns who protect your stuff. You know that if that sort of thing were "individualized" the minority of wealth-owners wouldn't stand a chance.
Tony, meet Jamestown. The destruction of just about everything you've ever said, in microcosm. Good day sir.
"Your version of individualism is to say that one very lucky individual is entitled to enjoy the maximum of human freedom even at the expense of most other people." Now, you're just setting up straw men and knocking them down.
Tony,
Please feel free to "pool" your resources all you want.
But keep it to yourself and your"flock" cause you and your kind aint getting a DIME from me.
If I choose to buy the street bumb a coffee and give him a blanket, then that is my choice, but you and your "friends" stopping buy to "collect" from me to give the bumb a house and free oil for heat is not better for me or any one else the "got the privilage" of paying the fair share.
I can lick that up for you, shrike...
Some people have more stuff than others! It's not faaaaiiirrrr!!!!1!one!won!exclamat1onpo!nt!
It's fair that 6 Walton offspring have more wealth than 30% of the population? Yeah being the end result of a random sperm cell's journey sure takes a lot of hard work.
I'm pretty sure I worked my fucking ass off to build that fortune, sonny-boy, and whom I gave it to is none of your fucking business.
...in order to be fair... no one should ever be allowed to inherit anything from anyone.
Death Taxes for everyone!
Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.
And the more we transfer wealth upward the more profitable your bottom-feeder business model will be.
But you can't justify capitalism on an ethic of individual entrepreneurship then defend unlimited hereditary wealth. These principles have to be about something, you know.
...no one should be allowed to inherit anything. Thanks for clarifying your true nature.
FIFY I'd recognize your trademark inability to see gray areas anywhere.
It's your work ethic, you defend unlimited hereditary wealth if you can.
It's just so much fun watching you deny being a wealth-envy practitioner, while you envy wealth out of the other side of your mouth.
Why isn't 35% enough?
Because it doesn't cover the things we need to pay for.
Do you think I stand to directly benefit from any redistributionist scheme I've endorsed? I advocate for me to pay more in taxes. That's envy?
You really can save the cheap psychobabble, it's too obviously an excuse for you to stop thinking.
Oh, you don't want anything extra - you've rubbed your well-offedness in our faces more than once.
No... you advocate FOR wealth-envy. I should have clarified that a long time ago.
Jealousy is feeding the growing mob mentality in this country, and one of these days it's going to explode into violence. How about NOT feeding that, by bitching about "the wealthy"?
Because without it, your Team might lose votes.
Do we need to pay for everything we're paying for right now? Fuck, no. Get us the fuck out of war - hear that, Obama? Get our fucking troops home and stop playing Global Playground Monitor! - and trim the other fucking fat in the budget. Don't sit there and tell us we don't blow fuckloads of money on shit we don't need.
Zero-baseline budgeting. There's no need to force federal agencies to spend X amount just to insure they'll get a higher percentage next fiscal year... make 'em live on the budget they spend NOW. THIS year. And no increases next year.
It's still a shitload of money, Tony. Why isn't it enough? Because you want to spend ten percent more next year? Or more?
At least you're honest enough to call them "redistributionist schemes". Thank you, at long last, for some honesty.
Fuck it. I have to go to work tomorrow.
Wallow in your Keynesian muck, Tony. You can have it all to yourself.
I don't care what the dollar amount is as long as social needs are met. If it turns out we can't physically pay for some things, fine, but that's not the case.
Wealth inequality is at historically high levels. At what point do you stop appealing to meaningless psychobabble and start admitting it's too skewed? There has got to be a point where any reasonable person acknowledges that there is too much wealth concentration. You err in assuming that all wealth at the top was earned legitimately. What justifies that assumption? Especially when you feel free to claim the dwindling wealth at the bottom was stolen.
Who said it was part of the government's responsibilities to make sure things are fair?
And there is a hard thing about "fair"? The goal posts keep moving on what is fair. Or more importantly, what is fair to one individual is not fair to another. The main problem with "fairness" is that is based on comparisons, and comparisons inevitably lead to pride or envy.
Is it fair that I was born with a debilitating disease called Cystic Fibrosis? No. But does that mean I have the right to force a doctor to study my disease or to treat me? Does that mean I have the right to take away other individuals' resources?
Is it fair for 51 percent of the population to enact laws that the rest of the population doesn't agree to? Is it fair to limit free trade in order to "protect American jobs" rather than share in economic freedom with all nations, creeds, and peoples?
There are a number of fatal flaws in Tony's collectivism, give-the-government-power argument. The main flaw is that he assumes that government officials are angels that are skilled in organizing resources according to the will of the people. Unfortunately, there is enough ambiguity in what "we the people" want that politicians have plenty of opportunity to squander the "public resources" whether those politicians are angels or not.
It is the point of civilization to reduce the risks of living in nature.
You want to pretend that your preferences about how civilization should be run are true and natural, while mine are an imposition. But deciding to accept the wealth distribution status quo (which is not the product of a free market, as I'm sure you'll acknowledge), or to decide not to have social health insurance, or anything else, is a choice just as much as anything else. I may ask for a few more tax dollars but you ask for a lot more risk in everyday life. We both ask payment of other people.
Hasn't it already been published that if all of the wealth from the "wealthy" was confiscated it would only fund government spending for a couple months? How is anyone "paying a little more" going to fix that clusterfuck of a problem?
"It is the point of civilization to reduce the risks of living in nature."
Don't you claim that people are speaking a strange religion when they don't explicitly prove assertions you disagree with?
How, then, do you justify pulling statements like this out?
Right, let's fix the undeserved distribution of wealth by giving more money to the government...?
"Do you think I stand to directly benefit from any redistributionist scheme I've endorsed? I advocate for me to pay more in taxes. That's envy?'
Not it is ramming your idological "morals" up everyone elses back side right after you empty the wallets.
Your "morals" cannot trump MY freedom Tony. It would be stealing cause I said no. And Robbers get lead slung thier way.
"Because it doesn't cover the things we need to pay for."
Stop spending!
Then youll have plenty dumb F*@#.
"you defend unlimited hereditary wealth if you can."
I can defend it rather easily:
IT'S NOT FUCKING YOURS ASSHOLE! YOU DIDN'T FUCKING EARN IT! YOU HAVE NO FUCKING CLAIM TO IT! You fucking envious, immoral disgusting thief.
Why not? When the stupid inherit they are soon poor...
Or they get into Yale and become president.
Or they get into Yale and become president."
Or they never even show up but get a Degree from Harvard Law School.
"But you can't justify capitalism on an ethic of individual entrepreneurship then defend unlimited hereditary wealth. These principles have to be about something, you know."
Yes, I can.
When a person owns private property, it's his.
When he dies, he gets to give it to whoever he wants. Since he cannot know the exact moment of his death, he communicates this choice through a will. The inheritance of his heirs (whoever they are) is the act of a person giving his private property away at the point he no longer wants it. It's an expression of private property rights.
If you want to claim that inheriting a large amount of money is unfair, then make the case for your assertion. The case for private property rights has been made.
And that principle of absolute property rights (a right guaranteed by the government and backed up by force), trumps the principle that a poor child shouldn't starve to death?
I get why you think you're being principled, but your moral premises are just flawed. It takes taxpayer funds and government force to protect claims to wealth. The practical reason for that protection is to motivate people to a) live in an orderly society and b) work hard to earn wealth (since you know you'll get to keep it). Neither of those concerns is satisfied by protecting unlimited hereditary wealth. Ownership is not and has never been absolute, same with all government guarantees.
"The right to inherit everything my parents worked for" does not trump the right of a poor child to eat, in my view. In your view it must, and that's why it fails as a moral system.
"The right to inherit everything my parents worked for" does not trump the right of a poor child to eat, in my view. In your view it must, and that's why it fails as a moral system."
Sure does. You want to steal it from those who earned it and redistribute it to those who don't.
YOU are immoral. Your solution is immoral. That's MY money not yours. If I CHOOSE to give it to the destitute, that's my business, NOT YOURS. If I CHOOSE to leave it to my children, that's MY decision, because I EARNED THE MONEY! I SAY WHERE IT GOES! This nation is extremely charitable. The poor will eat because of it. We do insist, though, that those receiving charity work (if able) to better themselves and not become a drain on society.
Tony, you are a disgusting, immoral, thief!
NO ONE here wants anyone to suffer and in a nation rife with liberty, NO ONE WILL. The way to help the impoverished is to give them a job and to grow economically. A rising tide floats all ships.
You, and your ideology, keep the poor impoverished. You are a disgusting pig. How could any rational human being argue the way to help the poor is to engage in theft from the rich.
MINE MINE MINE! is not a moral system, it's the attitude of a toddler or slow teenager. It's not all yours. You wouldn't have a cent if not for the generations of hard work and tax paying that has made the society in which you earn money possible. You are operating from a completely untrue premise, that your success is entirely a product of your own hard work. That's a narcissistic falsehood.
Part of what makes up the society that allows you to earn and keep wealth is a safety net for the poor. It's in your own best interest, because they won't be bothering you as much and because you might some day be poor.
Why is it not evil disgusting theft when my taxes pay to protect your property? Why do you get handouts and nobody else does?
I'll tell you why--you operate from a position of pure inward-looking selfishness. You don't care if the world is morally ordered, you just care that you get your loot and everyone else can fuck off.
It's not a zero sum game Tony. Wealth is created and it expands to the benefit of all. The poor prosper when the rich spend money in their own interest. Jobs are created, the poor find work. Wealth creation in conjunction with competition drives down the cost of goods and services so the poor can afford them, increasing their quality of life. The poor can, today, afford, things that were previously out of their price range...BECAUSE THE FREE MARKET WORKS!
When the rich get richer it's NOT at the expense of the poor.
YOU are the selfish one.
The poor prosper when the rich spend money in their own interest.
Bullshit. First I define a good economy as one in which there are decreasing numbers of poor people. If you're rich, you've already succeeded and don't need anymore coddling. So what is needed is a large and secure middle class. The only known ways to achieve that are progressive taxation, strong labor standards, and government intervention during times of high unemployment. This serf business--just give the rich more and they might deign to hire you to clean their toilet--is wrong on so many levels.
"First I define a good economy as one in which there are decreasing numbers of poor people."
Look around you asshole. This nations "poor" are fucking rich when compared to the "real" poor in the rest of the world. I've seen them first hand.
In this country, poor means you can only afford one flat-screen. The standard of living of this nation's poor is orders of magnitude better than in underdeveloped countries. You liberals just keep moving the bar. It will never be enough.
No Tony, you don't care about the poor. You care about you. You don't want to need to be responsible for your life. You want to be irresponsible, piss away your money and have somebody else take care of you. And you aren't moral enough to even care that you are living at someone else's expense. I said it before and I'll say it again. You are an immoral pig.
Yeah, I support a wife and kids, but I want to keep my private property because I'm immature and want what's MINE, MINE, MINE.
I think your assumptions of other's positions are very immature.
When I pay my taxes, I don't feel the warm glow of a generous government coming to take my vast wealth away to care for the poor.
I feel the government come and take what I would use for my family's future and spend it on whatever vote-buying program they favor at the moment.
Why you equate this all with "saving the children" seems to ignore all the realities of the U.S. budget.
MINE MINE MINE! is not a moral system
Actually it is If I worked for it and someone PAID me for it then I am entitled to it.
What your "Moral" system does is take or more like steal form the productive and "give" to the non productive.
What is the driving force for me to continue working so you can steal from me?
Your right there isn't one. I will move how I make"money" so I can keep what I earn, maybe even go cash only or bardering for 50%. Have done this for years on a smaller scale, and it works well.
Who the hell are you to define who is productive?
Especially since you want to make it the crassest possible definition: "He who is wealthy is by definition productive. He who is poor is by definition nonproductive."
Especially since you want to make it the crassest possible definition: "He who is wealthy is by definition productive. He who is poor is by definition nonproductive."
Yup have it your way Tony, cause you can't define "rich" so I have no need to define "productive"
If some one is Poor, and they are actually TRYING to WORK I will be glad to help but that help is not and cannot ever be a way for them to live on. Maybe just LEARN from. Also if the :poor" in your story are handy capped enough they can never work, then we need to help. But does that mean they can have a house of their own and live better then a mim wage family can? Not hardly they need to be fed chlothed and warm or they need to be their families problem. Then there are the truly stupid or basicaly lazy or both that just want to suck the system dry THESE "poor" are the ones who get NOTHING but a boot in the ass. Like it or not people need to make their own way it is the only sustainable system.
Economic collectivism eventually makes most everyone poor, and then, when children starve en mass, you will never take any responsibility for it.
Tony,
First, you keep insisting that we live in an "either/or" world, in which poor children will starve if we respect private property rights too much.
This actually flies in the face of much objective historic analysis. You can claim that there's a correlation between private property rights and starving children, but you cannot show this. As you would say, this sounds like one of those "religious" claims that you do not verify.
You seem to have a perspective that, any policy is great unless you can prove it doesn't satisfy some ultimate societal benefit that you define yourself (apparently arbitrarily).
"The practical reason for that protection is to motivate people to a) live in an orderly society and b) work hard to earn wealth (since you know you'll get to keep it). Neither of those concerns is satisfied by protecting unlimited hereditary wealth."
Is this the standard by which decisions on taxation and wealth redistribution are made? That's highly arbitrary. Anyway, didn't you earlier say that all lines drawn around forced collectivism have equivalent legitimacy? Why, then, do you bore us with your lengthy discussions about how private property rights don't satisfy your criteria? By your own admission, you can't claim your ideas are more legitimate than anyone else.
I can justify all shorts of human rights violations (and show historic examples), where the motivation can be credited with helping the poor and the "general society." This is not the standard by which these decisions are made in a civilized world, i.e., you don't get to claim legitimacy for any policy you want just by claiming it's "all for the children."
I can feed the elderly to the children, and make a claim it benefits children and society. Talk about equivalent legitimacy, indeed...
Or, how about this, Tony?
Say I'm incredibly wealthy, and I want to leave all my wealth to my one child: a mentally, physically handicapped boy, who will need support his entire life.
Respecting my private property rights, I can:
1. Take care of my son as best I can with my wealth as I own it, and,
2. Leave it all to him after I die, giving him a level and comfort he wouldn't receive otherwise.
In short, my private property rights allow me to love my son more than anyone else ever will.
Any amount you would take from me (some or all), limits my ability to do this.
In your world is it more "fair" to have the government come in, confiscate much/all of my son's inheritance? Forcing him to live off whatever assistance the state provides?
Perhaps it is more fair: we would achieve standardization of all treatment for handicapped people.
But, then, to achieve this glorious goal, don't you have to prevent me from giving it to my son before I die?
This is why these policies stink. They either:
1. They take away private property from people and squander it accomplishing practically nothing, or
1. They take away private property and really screw people over, often in ways that are unseen, unaccounted for.
After all, under this scheme, when my son grows up in a home for handicapped, impoverished people, we sit around and clap our hands at the equality of it all and the slightly, almost imperceptible, good done to society now that we disrespected my private property rights sufficiently.
You can dream to live in such a world. I find it terrifying.
"And that principle of absolute property rights (a right guaranteed by the government and backed up by force), trumps the principle that a poor child shouldn't starve to death?"
Nope the "child" is is parent problem. Just because some else has "excess" does not make it "ok" for you to extract it from them.
Tony you and the Government don''t get to pick winners or loosers.
So what does society do with the "losers"? Let them die off as if natural selection is the best possible system?
I fail to see how a poor child "earned" his fate merely by being unlucky in choice of parents.
If you want to take care of poor children, Tony, that's great. However, from looking at the budget of the U.S. government, I would infer that the priorities of U.S. spending are this:
1. Give retirement money and medical care to elderly Americans (i.e., the wealthiest and most politically active demographic)
2. Build a large military and support military-based industries
3. Throw some portion of whatever's left to medicaid, unemployment, and food stamps, and
4. Throw whatever's left at education, international affairs, and whatnot.
If you really want to take care of the children, you've got a lot more stuff to straighten out before you start going after death taxes.
I fail to see how a poor child "earned" his fate merely by being unlucky in choice of parents.
Right now in this country we have been fighing "poverty" for 60+ years food stamps for over 40 years we still have poor people and we now have the most ever on food stamps. But the farmers have to "bring" people in or hire illegals to pick the fruits and vegitables......Why is that......
Cause the farms cant pay min wage cause YOU wont buy the produce at that price.
All the poor "could be" picking veggies but welfare and food stamps come in the mail.
Get over it Tony people must make their own way. If you have it rough, I am sorry but get off your a$$ and start working to make tomorrow better. Want to learn i will teach anyone anything I know, but they have to leave the couch.
yep
"Yeah being the end result of a random sperm cell's journey sure takes a lot of hard work"
It is how you got here too. Too bad mom did not swallow.
But then Tony could not make it for them.....
act voluntarily
Thanks, Lance.
As for Tony's zero-sum game bullshit... well, I'm just not awake enough yet to give a fuck.
Man of nonsense, you are.
"your definition of individualism greatly restricts individual agency--you forbid them from making many of the choices for themselves that were made to make up modern civilization."
And there we have it....Tony wants the world to go back to the "Good Old Days" of Socialism / Monarchy were some Really Really Really smart caring group / king will make all of life's hard choices for the "masses"
That sounds great.....!
Douche.
The fucking New England Patriots, as individuals FREELY chose to act as a team. Nobody is mandating the they band together to play football.
Your parents freely chose not to revoke your citizenship status when you were in their custodianship, and you have freely chosen to retain it.
You're bitching about the fact of nature that people are born unable to freely choose citizenship. Take it up with nature--nature doesn't actually give a crap about all the rights you claim come from it.
Unfortunalty your parent "freely" chose to have sex and we got YOU.
But, Tony, by the same logic, can we not also say:
"Hey, kid: you were born in the US with the current status quo. Learn to deal with it"?
I'm pretty sure he said something YOU wanted to hear, Paulito.
From where does Krugman get this idea I know not, or if it's his opinion, I know not on what it is based. As with everything this man says, this assertion came strictly out of his own ass.
Professional discussion == Krugman's cocktail and catnip parties
No, it's essentially correct. Even if you think Hayek was a god whose every utterance was 100% correct, he still didn't influence the macroeconomic thought the way Keynes, Samuelson and Friedman did.
You like Hayek and his ideas? Fine, but accept him as what he was, not what you want him to be - he was a heterodox economist who turned his attention to social sciences, where his most important contributions are. You want to say he was unfairly neglected and ignored? Fine, but that also means he wasn't an important voice in the 1930's macroeconomics. Keynes was important because he influenced the economic thought at the time. Hayek didn't. Perhaps unfairly, but still.
Re: Watoosh,
Of course he did not, the same way atheists have not affected religious thought. We're not talking about religion, W, and there's nothing more religious than "macroeconomics."
@Old Mexican:
I enjoy it when greasy, unwashed men at the truckstop cum on my face.
Re: Dave Thomas,
Whatever turns you on, Dave.
is that where you came up with the frosty?
Yeah. And it's listed next to Wendy's Hot and Juicy on the menu.
We should talk, Dave. Do you hate Christ-fags?
Damn OM, that is a good line.
Agreed!
Why is it not acceptable to study the behavior and structure of whole economies?
You make macroeconomic claims all the time, btw, as do all libertarians.
Re: Watoosh,
That's not Krugman's assertion, W. Krugman stated that Keynes "made a fool of himself" and that "his ideas vanished from the professional discussion."
For some reason you buy into the claptrap that the ONLY economists that existed after WWII were Keynesians. I am sure people like Kirzner and Reismann would be surprised to hear that.
Even if you think Hayek was a god whose every utterance was 100% correct, he still didn't influence the macroeconomic thought the way Keynes, Samuelson and Friedman did.
The statement by Krugabe was that Hayek embarassed himself in the '30s.
Where is the evidence of that? Keynes was not celebrated in the '30s btw so what the fuck is Krugabe talking about?
You know who else was celebrated in the 30s?
"Maxxx > The statement by Krugabe was that Hayek embarassed himself in the '30s..."
Ten points for introducing the meme Krugabenomics.
"...Keynes was not celebrated in the '30s..."
"Bingo > You know who else was celebrated in the 30s?"
Another 10 points here for being the top funny fuck.
Maybe he's referring to the photos of Hayek cuddling kitties and drinking beer from a shot glass. That's pretty embarrassing stuff.
Krugman has spent more and more time away from the subjects that earned him his Not-A-Nobel a while back. He's a kind of religious figure, now, providing politically minded smokescreens for the lefties whose totalitarian values he shares.
He's kind of a Donald Trump of the economics profession. He has squandered a lot of other people's capital. He is prone to overly broad generalizations even when its pulled out of his ass (Hayek essentially made a fool of himself early in the Great Depression, and his ideas vanished from the professional discussion...). If anything, ass pulled material should at least be memorable and freaky, but coming from the Krug or Trump, it comes out not only wrong but bland and conventional.
He has squandered a lot of other people's capital.
Not only as an advocate of cosmic levels of squander but recall he did consult for Enron.
It's funny in a way to see Krugman criticize an economist for becoming more famous in the political sphere.
Krugman must be a hipster because him saying Hayek made a fool of himself is ironic.
I've listened to lectures on economic history produced by The Teaching Company. The lecturer was Timothy Taylor. He is very unbiased and after listening to all ten lectures I still can't tell where his political leanings are. But I'll tell you this, he mentions Hayek (and Von Mises) in the lecture on the socialist calculation debate. So for Krugman or Warsh to assert he played no role in economic history seems like the same silly partisanship they constantly accuse the other side of.
Considering the fetish modern "economic policy" bigwigs have for stability and preservation at any price, I would like to see them beaten about the head and shoulders with Schumpeter nonstop.
Friedrich Hayek is not an important figure in the history of macroeconomics.
Is Krugman even a macroeconomist? I thought he was a trade economist?
The mainstream economists of today have as much success rates as the alchemists of the past did. They better be scared because their theories have been proven wrong and wrong again with ever more dire economic consequences as the result.
I should also ppoint out that Krugman is not an important figure in the history of trade economics.
Essentially all he added was a small Astrix next to the law of comparative advantage which states "Individual players who are more informed will gain more from the astronomical windfall of free and open trade then players who are less informed...of course the value of that greater information has a very short half life as less knowledgeable players will quickly and easily pick up from the more knowledgeable players success."
How the fuck he got a Nobel prize for that trivial addition is anyone's guess.
"Individual players who are more informed will gain more from the astronomical windfall of free and open trade then players who are less informed...of course the value of that greater information has a very short half life as less knowledgeable players will quickly and easily pick up from the more knowledgeable players success."
Parsed:
'Asymmetric information can be valuable until it becomes symmetrical, which it quickly does.'
Do I have it?
BTW, off-topic: I think there should be a Szilard Peace Prize, and it should actually have to do with peace rather than 'he's not W'.
I'd scrap the Nobel Appeasement Prize altogether and replace it with the Nobel Liberty Prize.
Well, just look at all the serfdom!
Looks pretty serf like to me:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/0...../index.htm
Max|12.9.11 @ 6:42PM|#
"Well, just look at all the serfdom!"
Uh, OK.
Hey, Max... wanna help me blow Dave Thomas?
Serious question here: Does anyone know what the typical breakdown for medieval serfs or peasants was? How much of your harvest went to your lord? I know there's probably wide variation. I can't imagine an English commoner having the same burden as a Russian serf.
They were tithed. Like 10%!!!
[T]he Hayek thing is almost entirely about politics rather than economics.
Krugabe is hardly in a position to throw rocks on the subject of economists "politicizing" the debate.
^^^ THIS ^^^
Holy crap is that some serious projection.
No, you're projecting your projection, like Fred in episode 87.
Silly Tulpa. I don't project I only illuminate, at, uhm, various degrees of resolution.
Especially those Scandinavian serfs. Oh, I'll bet they wish they hadn't taken that fateful road.
Re: Max - H&R's pet yorkie,
arf! arf! arf!
Shut up, Max! Go outside and do your shit there. Go, git!
People of Swedish descent in America are richer and have better living standards in every measurable way than the Swedes who stayed. So why exactly is Sweden your role model ?
But they are serfs. The cost of living for Sweden places them dead last in the Cost of Living index, and below the USA in the well being index overall.
Serfs probably had it better than the overtaxed Swedish.
Scandinavia is in the EU right?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/.....-risk.html
Last I checked Germany was the country that practiced Hayekian style austerity when Keynesians cried for spending.
Funny how the results of that little economic experiment proved to favor Heyakian economics over Keynsian economics.
Greenland is filled with Scandinavians...shall we talk about their economy as well?
You will not like results. Trust me.
Max|12.9.11 @ 6:45PM|#
"Especially those Scandinavian serfs."
Which "Scandinavian" anything, dipshit?
Do you know the difference between Swedes and Norwegians? Swedes have decent neighbors.
I heard Dave Thomas needs a blowjob.
Swedish government: "We're not as socialist as you think we are."
The fatal conceit of the central planners is that they think they can compensate for knowledge deficiencies and make things more "fair" for those who lack the knowledge to compete well.
The planners promise they can make an economy grow AND spread the wealth by doing "macro" actions like setting prices, picking technological winners and losers, building "infrastructure", then funding it by taxing and borrowing and printing at magnitudes greater than GDP...but these efforts have failed miserably by all rational measures.
Yet they continue to lie about those failures and blame them on capitalism and free markets, relying not only on Keynesian crap but kindergarten ZERO SUM economic theory!!
These people need to be vilified. When a bedwetter congressman starts talking about "fair share", or saying how the "Stimulus" worked, and saved a billion jobs, the capitalist congressmen need to say things like,
"The gentleman from XXX, with all due respect, is a fucking dipshit whose economic understanding never evolved past kindergarten zero sum econ, and I move that the gentlemen be escorted to the day care center where he can share all the toys equally regardless of how shitty his fingerpainting looks, and then he will be happy, then we can get on with unfucking the economy that he and his sticky fingered parasitic accomplices have sabotaged, ransacked, and set on fire."
For that eloquence, sir, you most certainly get a harumph out of me.
I raise my martini to you, sir.
Reminds me of a cartoon:
A little tike Elizabeth Warren speechifying in the background about fairness, and two little dudes in a sandbox nearby scoffing in her direction, one says to the other, 'Pre-K.'
Harumph X 2
I tip my monocle to you sir.
[Hayek] "just didn't contribute very much to the development of technical economics."
And Hermann Maier never won a gold medal in the clean and jerk.
I am a Hayek fan! And as usual here must point out his great essay "Why I Am Not a Conservative".
I know - some Beckerheads won't like this comment.....tough shit.
Of course, I've never READ Hayek.
Its amazing how you conservatives glom onto a Hayek or Rand - then when you find that they hate your fucking shitty reprobate philosophy you attack the person who informs you of such.....
shrike|12.9.11 @ 10:21PM|#
"Its amazing how you conservatives glom onto a Hayek or Rand..."
It isn't amazing how stupid you are.
You're a conservative! You go from Edmund Burke to the Tea Party without a single original idea.
shrike|12.9.11 @ 10:57PM|#
"You're a conservative!"
It isn't amazing how stupid you are.
As for MY shitty reprobate philosophy...
And you're a prick, shrike.
Next?
You're a conservative!
Translated Shrike:
"Libertarians who don't give blow jobs to Keynesian = conservative.
I also don't like movies with depressing endings, fat black people, and fruit flavored ice cream...those are also conservative.
Pretty much anything I don't like is conservative"
I majored in Econ in undergrad, so obviously I am an expert (ha!); I did not read the article that rips Hayek, but I do remember from my History of Economics classes that the reason Hayek is not taught as much as Keyenes (at least this is what Dr. Eggleston told me) is that Keynes could be broken down into simple mathmatical, x/y axis type examples. Hayek dealt more with the psychological asspect of the consumer/market, and was basically just kind of etherial, at least from a teachable standpoint. Anyone reading this blog post has to know that economists are basically huge math nerds, and the only school of economics which doesn't focus on complex "technical" economics is the austrian school (cough,cough).
I have no dog in the fight; I stink at algebra, stats, etc. I am a big old liberal, but central planning is for the dogs. So is complete Randian free-marketering. Consider Joseph Schumpeter. Schumpeter jumped around so much during his teaching career there is not even a way to classify him. In college he is not listed under Classical, Neo-classical, Marxist, Keynesian, Austrian, etc. He's just Schumpeter. The only thing Joe Schumpeter was sure of was the ability of economists like him to fuck things up, which is why he is awesome.
It's been said before on these very pages, but it probably bears repeating. The quest for "simple mathmatical, x/y axis type examples" to explain the complex interactions between hundreds of millions of free people engaging in volutary transactions is precisely why Keynes is full of shit.
This is also why I laugh when I hear it said that economics is a science. There are no competing theories of Relativity.
To be fair, the behavior of gases follows fairly simple laws even though they're composed of particles undergoing almost completely random motion. So it's not immediately clear that a similar phenomenon couldn't occur in macroeconomics, where the individual choices of buyers and sellers average out like the motion of gas particles do.
Of course, such relations have to be proven (or at least tested and not proven false) which hasn't satisfactorily been done.
the behavior of gases follows fairly simple laws even though they're composed of particles undergoing almost completely random motion.
Human behavior isn't random, it's directed by conscious beings with purpose.
Lizards? Parasites? Mimes?
If that's so, that makes it even easier to analyze things macroeconomically, not harder.
From a big picture perspective, I'm not even sure any individual's purposes are relevant; they cancel each other out in the long run.
Here is the basic problem, can Tulpa predict what time tomorrow he will be scratching his nuts? Lets say he can to a high degree of accuracy by averaging out previous nut scratching occasions and there various causes and correlating happenstances. Terrific! Now can he do this for every guy in America? Figuring out the economic activity of a similar number of individuals in an aggregate is a magnitude more difficult than calling me up and accurately reporting to me, 'Hey, Chris, you just scratched your nuts, didn't ya?'
Except it's not. The vagaries of individual choices cancel each other out when you're dealing with massive numbers.
For instance, none of us is surprised that a grocery store is able to stock the right amount of bread every day, despite the fact that it would be nearly impossible to predict when a particular customer will come in to buy bread.
"This is also why I laugh when I hear it said that economics is a science."
Disagreed.
It is a very *difficult* science in that human activity is driven by complex individual histories.
The study of wealth, value and the distribution of same certainly is a science, unless you'd like to propose a revelatory view or another alternative.
Keynes also gave politicians the ability to say they could do something about the problems in the economy. People who do something are the people who get votes. Economists with solutions are invited to more parties.
Also, economics is a science. It ventures into joke realm when people try to make it normative rather than positive in nature.
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Hey, PornBot, does Valerie prefer the robotic jackhammering of Krugman's engorged, artificial stimulus, or the spontaneous rhythm of the Austrians?
PornBot 69000, I like that name I think I'll keep it
both
at the same time
You have to wonder if this very long post about Ron Paul is intended to get Gillespie's "Five Myths About Ron Paul" off the front page. In the comments of that little hagiography I quoted Gillespie and other reasonoids verbatim from the time when they were all shocked and dismayed about Paul's racist newletters.
So why should people of faith trust Ron Paul when he denies, however weakly, the pandering to racists he did back then? I suspect the old fuck is a crypto-Nazi. And why is a state government telling women what to do with their bodies better than the federal government doing the same thing?
Max|12.9.11 @ 8:55PM|#
"You have to wonder if this very long post about Ron Paul is intended to get Gillespie's "Five Myths About Ron Paul" off the front page."
Naah,
We have to wonder if you've ever posted anything than the same, discredited bullshit.
Here is a mirror for you, Max. Use it for a change.
http://healthblog.ncpa.org/wha.....more-22919
You mean the newsletters Paul himself did not write?
Fuck. Why won't you and shrike just stay the fuck gone?
"And why is a state government telling women what to do with their bodies better than the federal government doing the same thing?"
Because 50 choices is better than 1?
Great point, Bugs.
oops, wrong post.
That dude jsut seems to know what the deal is. Wow.
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The Venus Project offers a comprehensive plan for social reclamation
in which human beings, technology and nature will be able to
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American Jacque Fresco, with the aim of improving society with a global sustainable social design that it calls a "resource-based economy". The system aims to incorporate sustainable cities and values, energy efficiency, collective farms, natural resource management and advanced automation..PERSONALLY...I'D LIKE TO DIRECT EVERYONE....EVERYONE....TO GETTING TO CONSIDER GETTING ON BOARD WITH THIS PROJECT....THIS MAN SHOULD BE ON EVERYONE TEAM...EVERYONES TEAM....EVERYONE WOULD BENEFIT TO HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY....DO IT...DO IT NOW...NO ONE LIVES FOREVER.....IF I WAS HIM...ID BE OVERJOYED....HE IS A TEAM PLAYER IN EVERY WAY
^?
Is that HERC?
NAhh...Herc isn't this delusional. Oh yeah...not a team player either.
True, and not enough [BRACKETS].
http://www.venusproject.com/
FREE energy...
Good one!
Umm..yeah, I am not going to ask a super computer for permission to have my daily allotment of gruel. I'll stick to money, thank you very fucking much.
Why should YOU get gruel, when some starving grandmother is being pushed off a cliff so you can HAVE gruel in the first place?
Haven't you been reading Tony's work?
You'll get what *I* tell you you'll get, especially you fuckin' honky bastards!
Interesting quote from Hayek:
PROFESSOR HAYEK 1975: I will tell you of an episode that may be significant. In 1929, or perhaps 1930, when the depression was beginning to get quite serious on the European continent, a German political commission?the Braun Committee? proposed to combat it by reflation (though that term had not yet been coined), by rapid credit expansion. One of the members, in fact the main author of the report, was my late friend, Professor Wilhelm Roepke. I thought that in the circumstance the proposal was wrong, and I wrote an article against it. I did not publish the paper, however, but sent it to Roepke with a covering letter in which I made the following point:
Apart from political considerations, I think you should not?not yet at least?start expanding credit. But if the political situation is so serious that continuing unemployment would lead to a political revolution, please, do not publish my article. That is a political consideration, however, which I cannot judge from outside Germany, but which you will be able to judge. Roepke's reaction was not to publish the article, because he was convinced that at that time the political danger of increasing unemployment was so great that he would rather risk the danger of causing further misdirections by more inflation in the hope of postponing the crisis; at that particular moment, such postponement seemed to him politically necessary.
I have never denied that one can, in the short run, reduce unemployment in that fashion,. All I am arguing is that in the long run you do more harm than good by inflation, and unless the circumstances of the moment threaten greater dangers, I would not inflate.
I'm a Libertarian and very interested Austrian School Economics. I wanted to learn more. I've been going to Mises Institute's Website. I wanted to learn more any suggests? Thank you
Avoid anything with the name "John Maynard Keynes", and you're on your way.
If you mean for a technical background, start with Carl Menger's Principles of Economics. Not only is it a valuable presentation of economic thought up to the Marginal Revolution, it will also help you recognize where more modern economist build up strawmen in their very description of the classical economist. You'll find your self saying things like, 'Jesus, jmk, how did you get away with that? That is not what Says said at all.'
Two very different approaches:
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/
http://cafehayek.com/
Check out this skewer of the Krug:
http://www.economicpolicyjourn.....n-but.html
agree
I want that t-shirt!
You want to look like a retard and get laughed at? Go for it!
Tony the buffoon is back, here are some his thoughts:
Freedom to pool resources is the same as forcing people to pay tax. Lower taxes is the same as spending cuts. The path to prosperity is paying the unproductive, because hey, paying losers for doing nothing is what motors the economy. Raising poor little granny and Oliver Twist is not moral finger wagging, yet I will constantly accuse others of moralising (what exactly is wrong with morals anyway). I am an expert in science, yet all I got is an art degree.
Tony, until you hand over huge amounts of your money, to poor African countries, which you greedily do not want to, you are nothing but a hypocrite.
I'm all for foreign aid.
Raising the point that poor grandmothers will be cast into devastating poverty if you guys had your way is not moralizing, it's telling the truth, something you seem loath to acknowledge. You guys hardly ever talk about the real-world effects of your policy ideas.
Do you disagree that if you had your way we'd send millions of grandmothers into poverty in favor of preserving low tax rates? Or will the magical free market take care of them?
Wow... not one for hyperbole when it comes to grandmothers, eh?
How is it hyperbole? Just what do you think will happen if we abolish Medicare?
If you're not owning up to the real-world consequences of your ideas then what use are you?
You do know that medicare gives money to wealthy elderly people, too, don't you?
Tony|12.10.11 @ 2:58AM|#
"I don't care what the dollar amount is as long as social needs are met."
Shithead comment parsed:
'I don't care how much of your money it costs to make me feel virtuous'.
Oh, and shithead, define "need".
I could have bad luck and become poor. So could you. This is about my selfish interest, which is apparently the only moral standard that is legitimate to you.
Needs include food, water, shelter, law and order, education, healthcare, mobility, and perhaps other things. Why do you think a society properly protects the luxuries of the rich but not the needs of the poor?
So, should food, water, shelter, and all those other things... be free?
...or subsidized?
Damn hitting "enter" too early...
Of course, and they are. It's typically a hallmark of any civilization to have plumbing, and this country has direct subsidies for feeding the poor.
You cannot justify morally or practically a society placing a higher priority on protecting the luxuries of the rich than the needs of the poor.
"You cannot justify morally or practically a society placing a higher priority on protecting the luxuries of the rich than the needs of the poor."
I can't......Well since the poor did nothing other than being poor Yea I can
Produce or risk dying, life is that simple Tony.
It is that way for me so it shall be for everyone else. I dont care if you think you have "morals" or not all you do is make Dependants and those dependants make you more powerful. That is your plan, power and popular because your "morals" helped "so many".
Safety Nets are needed but they must not and can not be a way of LIFE. They need to be a means to an end.
Everyone can do something and they must.
Why do you think a society properly protects the luxuries of the rich but not the needs of the poor
There is nothing with our laws to protect "needs" your needs are YOUR duty. The Laws we have protect our RIGHTS!
Get a clue.
Tony|12.10.11 @ 1:19AM|#
"Maybe the individual has been emphasized too much."
In your case, shithead, existence has been emphasized too much.
Grandmothers starving in the streets!!!1!one! Don't you caaaaaare????q??
Seriously...
Short of a rigid, violently-enforced, global-wide system wherein *no one* has more money or stuff than *anyone else* (including, especially, those in power)... there IS no solution to poverty.
I can't stand the fact that poverty has become a relative term.
If owning a color television, a car, a computer, and an internet connection can be considered poverty today, then 100 percent of the population must have been practically out on the street 50 years ago.
^This^
Poverty is defined in the US as making $22,350 or less for a family of 4. Does that sound like living the high life to you?
Doesn't sound like poverty to... pretty much everyone else on the planet who actually IS in poverty.
It sounds pretty hellish to me, but what do I know, I am an immoral looter for daring to say rich people have too much wealth.
I wish I could be morally pure like you guys by telling poor people the same exact thing.
Yes. Theives are immoral. Not complicated.
Somehow it's theft to raise taxes on the rich 5%, but it's not theft to take away healthcare benefits and food money from the poor.
Your moral philosophy is so sophisticated.
"Somehow it's theft to raise taxes on the rich 5%"
Yes. It is.
"but it's not theft to take away healthcare benefits and food money from the poor."
If it is their personal property, then it would be. If it is a privilege that was unearned and provided by others then no it would not be.
"Your moral philosophy is so sophisticated."
Actually, no. It is quite simple. The fact that you have such trouble understanding it says much more about your level of intellegence than mine.
So we should tax inheritance at 100%?
Or do you have another bullshit excuse to defend that?
"So we should tax inheritance at 100%?"
You mean one person's property that is willingly given to another? No. That should also be at 0%.
"Or do you have another bullshit excuse to defend that?"
No. Just another simple one. Strange how you still can't wrap your mind around it.
It was your fucking moral premise!
"It was your fucking moral premise!"
Yes. A slimple moral premis that you refuse to understand.
If anybody needs a clue about the cluelessness of macroeconomists and their ivory tower theorizing having little basis in the real word, well... Three words: EFFICIENT MARKET HYPOTHESIS
Possibly the most colossaly stupid, obviously false, yet clung to like a liferaft... Economic theory evah!
Guys who couldnt trade their wAy out of a paper box, claimingnobody else can,because the market is "efficient"
Just mind blowinglystupid
"I think the real issue is this. Hayek's approach attacks, root-and-branch, the macroeconomic way of thinking."
Saying that Hayek made no contributions to macroeconomic theory is like saying that Darwin made no contributions to Creationist theory.
Dude clearly knwos what is up man. Wow.
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Right now she has a glorious black bush. Catch it now before she tries something new with that as well.
Guess the world leader:
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with it's unfair salaries, with it's unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions."
Chavez
Guess again.
Hitler 1927
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