Obama's Great Depression
The president is following in Herbert Hoover's footsteps.
Last week the White House picked a Virginia fire station as the venue for the president's principal campaign stop—er, legislative sales pitch. The choice was apt. At roughly the same time the president was lamenting how "cities and states like Michigan and New Jersey . . . have had to lay off big chunks of their forces," Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid declared, "It's very clear that private-sector jobs have been doing just fine; it's the public-sector jobs where we've lost huge numbers."
Oh. Guess you can go home now, Wall Street occupiers! All those unemployment reports? False alarms.
To be fair to Reid—which may be more than he deserves—he was defending the part of the American Jobs Act that would appropriate $35 billion for state and local government hiring. That might help offset the savage cuts of the past year, except for one thing: The cuts have not been that savage. From September of last year to this past month, state and local payrolls have shrunk by 260,000 positions out of more than 20 million. That comes to roughly 1 percent of the work force.
The situation looks much worse for the private sector. It has added jobs at an anemic rate in the past few months, but it still has far to go before it claws its way back to the employment peak of November 2007. At that time total non-government employment stood at 124 million. It's now 109 million. Barack Obama has joined George W. Bush in a dubious category. They are the only two presidents besides Herbert Hoover to see the number of job-holding Americans decline on their watch.
The parallels with Hoover don't end there. It's commonly believed Hoover took a hands-off approach to the country's economic distress, and that his administration's tight-fisted refusal to spend prolonged the misery. But Hoover was about as stingy with a government dollar as "Jersey Shore" is with hairspray.
Hoover increased federal spending by more than 50 percent, signed the biggest peacetime tax increase to that point, lavished money on public works, and signed the disastrous Smoot-Hawley protectionist tariff. FDR slammed Hoover's "reckless and extravagant" spending and accused him of wanting to "center control of everything in Washington as rapidly as possible." Roosevelt's running mate, John Nance Garner, denounced Hoover for "leading the country down the path of socialism."
Hoover's massive government interventionism did not end the Great Depression. George W. Bush's rapid spending increases did not forestall the current malaise. And the massive government outlays of the past three years—federal spending has increased 30 percent; despite layoffs, state and local spending has grown, not shrunk—have not cured the country's economic ills, either. Yet the answer, say countless voices in the prestige press, is to stop Washington's ruinous "austerity" and start spending.
How many moons orbit the planet they're living on? If a $900 billion spending hike is austerity, what in the world does extravagance look like?
Actually, it looks something like the $440,000 Washington spent on a museum for antique bikes. Or the half-million-dollar federal outlay for beautifying decorative rocks. Those are some of the things Sen. John McCain recently urged Congress to stop using tax dollars for—along with the National Corvette Museum in Kentucky and a giant coffee pot in Pennsylvania—on the theory that maybe the money could be used better elsewhere. The Senate didn't buy it, and last Wednesday his colleagues shot down his proposal 59-39.
This kind of thinking shows why the congressional super-committee has deadlocked. The super-committee is supposed to hash out a deal by Thanksgiving to reduce the deficit. According to the narrative in the prestige press, blame for the impasse falls on the GOP's tax intransigence. Democrats won't agree to spending cuts until Republicans agree to revenue hikes, goes the story, and Republicans are fanatical. But that narrative—like Hoover's austerity and the austerity of this summer's recent budget deal—is a myth. Given the recent spending explosion, blaming the GOP for not meeting Democrats halfway is like blaming the victim of a mugging who hands over 95 dollars and then refuses to go halfsies on the last five bucks. Man, what kind of selfish jerk isn't willing to meet his opponent halfway?
As even The New York Times conceded a couple of months ago, "There is something you should know about the deal to cut federal spending that President Obama signed into law on Tuesday: It does not actually reduce federal spending. By the end of the 10-year deal, the federal debt would be much larger than it is today. Indeed, both the government and its debts will continue to grow faster than the American economy."
That story also noted, "The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the federal debt is likely to exceed 100 percent of the nation's annual economic output by 2021." Well. According to the latest figures, U.S. debt is on track to exceed GDP by Halloween—this Halloween.
Herbert Hoover would be proud.
A. Barton Hinkle is a columnist at the Richmond Times-Dispatch. This article originally appeared at the Richmond Times-Dispatch.
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So Hoover was FDR lite like Bush is Maobama lite?
Yes. The parallels are very close.
Let me be clear. Give me four terms like FDR and I will create jobs like he did.
Cool. What's the next "day that will live in infamy?"
China. They're the only ones powerful enough to fully "stimulate" our economy.
In order to duplicate the post-WWII boom, we'd have to have another world war of an equal scope, thus creating 3-plus years of pent-up demand for new cars and consumer goods - among other factors.
Oh, and Obama would have to die* like FDR did, before the end of the war.
*Not wishing for it, Secret Service... just paralleling history.
only if he dies of natural causes ,because the last thing we want is another black communist marytr.
Except China's real estate boom is just turning to bust. It's likely to lead to bank runs, there, then here. In Shanghai, an apartment costs nearly $700 per square foot! Thus a 1000 sq. ft. 1 BR will run you $700,000.
There's one thing FDR did in office that I wish Obama would do.
Put the Japs in internment camps?
Only Sulu, though I suspect he'd enjoy it.
Bang his secretary? 😉
Die?
Winnah.
"No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die"
That was too easy.
What? I would never wish harm upon another human being or high primate.
Define "high primate", because I know about what you did to those female orangutans, and "monkey rape" falls under the definition of "harm".
How do primates get high?
They climb trees.
I know how to get them high!
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACIST
Smoke cigarettes through a ridiculously long holder?
Give motivational, uplifting, confidence-inspiring radio addresses?
Ride around in a wheelchair?
Give half of Europe to the Communists?
+1
I was going to go with "develop superweapons to destroy our enemies", but I like yours better.
End Prohibition?
FDR didn't end prohibition. Prohibition ended through amending the constitution; the president plays no formal part.
Mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again. And we got one.
Gee our old LaSalle ran great.
Zip it, Edit'!!!
Didn't need no welfare state.
Stifle yourself
For sucking up our hard earned dollars, I hear Obama is dumping the Hoover and buying a Dyson.
Too bad it is not a windmill/solar hybrid.
But that's just not the case.
We all know that government spending is the only way to stimulate the economy.
Nevermind that whatever government spends must first be removed.
Nevermind that the spending is based upon political considerations rather than value.
Nevermind that government spending confuses price signals and slows the reallocation of capital necessary for the economy to sort itself out.
Skip all that stuff and focus on aggregates.
If you do that then it makes perfect sense that the reason the economy slumped under Hoover and now under Obama is that the government didn't do enough!
Plus, the gubermint's cost of money is just ink and paper. We just have "independent" Bernanke print like a madman and we will all be millionaires. Of course, a six pack of bud will cost 60,000$...
That calls for a drink
You're making the mistake of drawing a distinction between money and wealth.
If you equate the two, then printing money actually creates wealth.
"Plus, the gubermint's cost of money is just ink and paper"
It's not even that anymore.
It's all digital money.
You're getting really good at this. It's frightening. Please stop it.
He's nearly brainwashed himself. It's sad, really.
Rothbard Revises the History of the Great Depression
And the revisionist historianism begins. Soon Reason will be airbrushing photos of Bush in office and replacing him with Al Gore, and when you go through the archives looking for the fawning articles they wrote about the president during the past decade, you'll only find articles condemning the president as a statist usurper.
Retarded TEAM BLUE troll is retarded. Big surprise.
How bout I retard you upside the head?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
INTERNET TUFF GAI
You got any more? This is fucking hilarious.
Don't worry, I only duel people of my own mental level.
The kids on the short bus must be pretty nervous.
GOOD ONE!! Kind of insensitive to little kids who were dropped on their heads or born disabled, but still funny:)
So, snails?
I accept your challenge!
...says the guys with "tard" in his name.
Just sayin.
He puts the 'mus' in 'tard'.
@mustard, if you are interested, this is a great myth busting presentation by Lawrence Reed on the Great Depression: http://youtu.be/ZfV9jXD0xxs.
I dare anyone who spews the current FDR narrative to debate him.
Gotta take that period outta your anchor tag.
Correct linky.
That link works better without the period at the end.
If you're anti-war, mustard, how can you be pro-hitting Episarch "upside the head"?
Fucking hypocritical schmuck.
Re: mustard,
"Revisionist history" only means diving deeper into the facts rather than taking official history at face value. I don't understand what you want to imply.
Is there anything that Mr. Fink said that Hoover did during his term inaccurate in any way?
No you see, critically analyzing the past and exploding popular myths is only okay when Marxists like Zinn do it.
Of course Zinn was a shitty historian, but let's not let the truth get in the way of a good liberal narrative.
You're right! It's already begun! Look here - they planted a whole fake comment thread and everything. You would almost think that the vast majority of Reason's articles on Bush were negative. But you and I remember the truth, mustard. Don't let the facts tell you otherwise.
In other words, you have never read one word Reason has written about Dubya.
[M]ustard: Tastes great, doesn't know a damn thing about economics.
I know Obama IS a statist usurper, but I'd still suck His Sweet Jizz any day.
And they'll airbrush me to show a Prince of Peace!
Any relation to Harry Hinkle?
Were job numbers compiled during Washington's tenure?
Did the number of private jobs increase during the Civil War era?
I don't know. I'm just asking. But this whole 'jobs created' thing kinda frightens me, in a bigger government way. I mean, how does a politician go about creating a job?
Back then the vast majority of Americans were working on farms, so the concept of a job has changed quite a bit in the interim.
Right Holy Cow. Politicians can only create government jobs, and they seem to be fixated on creating more teachers, cops, and firefighters. Ironically, kids aren't getting smarter, crime is down, and our neighborhoods are not burning down.
Individuals, entrepreneurs, are great at creating jobs. Ever seen the Honey Badger video on YouTube? The narrator, Randall is selling official Honey Badger t-shirts. He created a job. Is it a high paying job? I don't know, but it is based on a mutual exchange between two willing parties. It did not require an act of Congress and the President to "be created". Three years ago, we could not predict that Randall could make a living off of selling Honey Badger t-shirts. Likewise, the Government cannot predict future job markets and needs. Therefore, any attempt by politicians at creating jobs will always result in a mis-allocation of funds. Funds, coincidentally, that were taken by force from you and me.
Right Holy Cow. Politicians can only create government jobs, and they seem to be fixated on creating more teachers, cops, and firefighters.
Won't you please think of the children! We need more cowboys, ballerinas, and spacemen!
Don't forget the cowboy poets and protesters union organizers.
I think we need more glaziers.
We need more stimulus! Krugman said so!
Won't you please think of the children! We need more cowboy poets, ballerinas, and spacemen!
FIFY
Yes? I'm here!
We used to be a Great Manufacturing Nation. Now we sell honey badger t-shirts. Goddammit bring back the sweatshops and lousy repetitive deadend jobs so we can be a Great Manufacturing Nation again!
The question then becomes is Randall giving NatGeo a taste for re-purposing their IP, a-la MST3K?
Betcha Honey Badger doesn't consider himself one of the pitiful 99%.
You're getting boring, Waffles.
From what I understand, Obama not only prevented the 2nd Great Depression but he also brought donuts.
It's "commonly believed" because pretty much every teacher, professor and liberal journalist has parroted this lie for 60 years straight.
Sounds familiar?
Yes, the same way Obama called Bush "unpatriotic" for raising the debt level.
Which is not ironic, since FDR seeked to lead the country down the path of fascism.
Which is not ironic, since FDR seeked to lead led the country down the path of fascism.
Fixed
Well, yes, but at that very time he was only seeking to do it - he hadn't won the presidency yet. 😉
Which would mean he "sought" to do it.
Ok, Mr. Grammarman.
It is I! GRAMMARMAN!!
Grammar-nazi commenter Barely Suppressed Rage. Your hat-tip tag is now set in stone.
...he hadn't won the presidency yet.
Bullshit.
Joey Biden told us FDR went on television the day the stock market crashed in 1931.
The Hoover myth must live because without it the FDR myth must die. That is why every liberal teacher and journalist denies reality like that.
Fascism is Socialism. No correction needed.
". . . the line between Fascism and Fabian Socialism is very thin. Fabian Socialism is the dream. Fascism is Fabian Socialism plus the inevitable dictator." John T. Flynn, from The Road Ahead.
http://mises.org/books/roadahead.pdf
On a serious point, read this speech from "tax forms are so complicated and I can't figure out my salary" Geithner in 2007.
http://www.ny.frb.org/newseven.....70323.html
Now, Geithner's JOB was to know how the big money center banks worked. Here he is saying there isn't too much leverage (what a great word - leverage - that means borrowing....I wonder why they don't just say "borrow").
Now, after demonstrating that he really has no clue...on how to pay taxes...uh, I mean on knowing about how the big banks operated, how much leverage they actually employed, ad infinitum, this guy gets promoted.
Its as if the captain of the Titannic survived, and the solution was to give him a bigger boat with fewer lifeboats...
Nothing is more lavishly rewarded in government than failure, fresno dan.
that sure is the truth
Or as we used to say in the Army, fuck up, move up.
I see your point, but he was lying. The UN had him sign a form informing him that the money was taxable income and had him agreeing to pay taxes on it since the UN wasn't withholding taxes. He knew plenty well how to fill out the forms. He is just a crook.
Apparently people would rather think he's incompetent than he's a lying weasel.
But, hey, both works for me.
It's about plausible deniability; when a scam fails, claims of incompetence are customary.
the fat lady is starting to sing
A. Barton Hinkle Heimerschmidt
His name is my name, too!
Whenever we go out
People always shout,
"There goes A. Barton Hinkle Heimerschmidt!"
LALALALALALALA....
there's a problem with this story. there's no such thing as a real job in government. government employment is at the expense of real jobs.
In certain ways yes. In certain ways no. Some marginal amount of government is undoubtedly value adding. Of course, as with all things, there is a diminishing marginal utility in government employment. Now, I'll say I think that amount comes very quickly. But a guy stopping thugs from robbing you is undoubtedly doing a real, value added job. On the other hand, when that is expanded to mean a bunch of guys in military gear busting through your door with guns drawn because you might have a some doobie in the place, well not so much.
But then you have David Gregory implying that the loss of 5 federal departments amounting to 226,000 employees would make the US slide into the Pacific like a modern Atlantis or something...
"it's the public-sector jobs where we've lost huge numbers"
such as all the brand-new, never before considered positions for new cops created by "stimulus money"?
And what did they think was going to happen when the money ran out?
Frakin politicians!
You can't just take whatever arbitrary amount of spending has been done and declare the whole project a failure. You could say that about any amount of spending. What you fail to offer is an explanation for how austerity will grow employment.
Define "austerity".
Reducing spending and raising taxes in order to cut deficits. So I guess it's not really austerity you guys or for, just starving the beast.
Re: Stoopid In America,
Tax increases do not lower deficits. a) Congress would simply spend the extra money on something else. b) People would simplyn hide their assets from the taxman, negating any potential reward. Humans have this nasty tendency to not like being robbed, sockpuppet. If you don't believe this, ask yourself why bike riders carry locking chains around.
If taxation is robbery then you don't get to claim ownership of property.
Fill in the bit between the premise and the conclusion there, would you?
It's his way.
Granted OM thinks he's entitled to his property because he can defend it with firepower, i.e. might makes right, but the bigger issue is libertarian's central flaw (and I'm not the first to point it out): you believe government should exist to protect property but do little else. So what you claim is that government ought to look out for the luxuries of the rich while ignoring the needs of the poor. Morally it's a dead end.
You are such a catastrophic nitwit that you leave me speechless.
Hey! Fuck that noise.
you believe government should exist to protect property but do little else.
If you count such things as a court system that would enforce a system of restitution for injuries suffered as a result of wrongdoing and the protection of life and limb as "little else", then sure.
Yeah, more crazy notions.
You know who else held similar beliefs?
Those crazy rat bastards who drafted that old, useless, nothing-more-than-a-piece-of-paper that the progressives have been wiping their feet on for decades.
The simple reality is that the U.S. Constitution primarily largely was about improving the ability to engage in unfettered commerce, which would inure to the betterment of all.
Re: Stoopid In America,
Which is totally different from the other argument that property exists because the police have the guns. Right?
Yes, we already know you're not clever enough to come up with unique thoughts.
SOME libertarians believe this.
There's a huge logical chasm between holding one position and believing the position means the above.
Like the huge chasm between wit and your brain.
Yes your claim to property relies on men with guns securing it--but they're part of an institution we get to democratically elect. Your system defers to whoever has the biggest guns, regardless of whether they were elected to fill that role.
If you want to be an anarchist and reject the concept of property entitlement, fine, at least you're consistent. All I'm saying is that it's inconsistent and morally suspect to claim that government ought to look after rich people's freedom to enjoy luxuries but not poor people's freedom to enjoy living and breathing by taking a portion of those luxuries to satisfy their needs. It's THE central flaw of property-based libertarianism.
All systems defer to whoever has the biggest guns, you moron.
Yeah, didn't one of Tony's heros Mao claim the all political power comes from the barrel of the gun.
There is a big, big difference between using force or the threat of force to protect one's legal property and using force to take it. But you are such a nit-wit that you don't see the moral distinction.
That just one of your premises that is incorrect. I don't have an eternity to correct all of the others (e.g. your implicit impression that people are either rich or poor and can do nothing to change their lot in the life. We have a boatload of eveidence that says otherwise.).
Granted OM thinks he's entitled to his property because he can defend it with firepower, i.e. might makes right, but the bigger issue is libertarian's central flaw (and I'm not the first to point it out): you believe government should exist to protect property but do little else. So what you claim is that government ought to look out for the luxuries of the rich while ignoring the needs of the poor. Morally it's a dead end.
I'm not sure that explicates libertarianism's central flaw so much as it defines minarchism (given a sufficiently broad definition of property). Yes, we believe that it's wrong to take property to provide for whatever you define as a need; we also think it's wrong to take property to provide for whatever you define as a luxury. Also, unless I'm mistaken you've misrepresented OM's position: it's not that he's entitled to his property because he can defend it, but that he has the right to defend it, using force if necessary, because he acquired it voluntarily. Do you not see the world of difference between these to positions? One says might makes right; the other says right legitimises might.
that's *two
Since when is raising taxes necessarily part of an austerity budget? I will freely admit that raising taxes will do nothing to grow employment.
But, even a pure cuts austerity budget will inflict short-term pain. Lots of government employees and contractors will lose out. No question.
But after that creative destruction has run its course and the capital markets are freed from the lamprey of government deficits, then you will see employment turn around.
Absolutely. I fully expect to lose my job in the next year due to budget cuts. I'm actually planning for it.
But then again, I'm a technically-skilled contractor, not a professional paper-pusher, so I expect to bounce back pretty well, and perhaps be better off than I was before (unemployment would be a huge motivation to acquire some new skills).
Agreed. And not making the cuts because there will be short term pain is just illogical. It would be like telling a smoker not to quit because there will be short-term discomfort from withdrawl. What's worse, dying from lung cancer or short-term withdrawls?
Exactly when has spending been reduced?
Reducing spending and raising taxes in order to cut deficits. So I guess it's not really austerity you guys or for, just starving the beast.
Yeah, fucking crazy idea, I know. We're spending way more than we're taking in, and a lot of it is discretionary spending, and a lot of it pissed down the gutter. What to do, what to do? I know - spend a metric fucking shitload more!!
Tony defines austerity as "increasing spending one penny less on the dollar NEXT fiscal year than THIS year".
Austerity Fiscal sanity won't grow employment in the short term. It's a policy with short term costs and medium-term benefits, the chief benefit being to prune dead weight and unprofitable endeavors from the economy, not to mention avert complete fiscal collapse when the borrowing gets tough. We've been lucky so far that the Euro-troubles have been large enough to overshadow our own shaky foundations and keep people getting into dollars, but we can't count on that forever.
Deregulation, on the other hand, may well grow employment enough in the short term to cancel the temporary losses from fiscal sanity.
And since there will always be phantom "dead weight" and some regulations, when your plan fails to accomplish anything, there's still plenty blame to go around.
And since there will always be some money in the economy that is not spent by the govt, when your plan fails to accomplish anything (as it has failed to do, time and time again) you'll just say we need to tax and spend more.
The GD required more spending than was politically achievable until a world war happened. The current crisis requires similarly politically impossible levels, as any modern Keynesian will say. You guys constantly say "look, we're spending a large but arbitrary amount of money, and things aren't perfect, therefore the entirety of modern economics is a failure!"
It's perfectly consistent to say that spending is necessary but that we aren't doing enough to solve the problem. The only inconsistent people are you guys who insist on austerity policy but refuse to implement the tax-hike half of austerity.
Re: Stoopid In America,
Sure, and what was needed was to dig a deeper hole so the falling guy would hit the ground later rather than sooner. There wasn't enough digging!
You're just a moron like Krugman for subscribing to this Gambler's Fallacy.
There were no such political constraints in Zimbabwe, sockpuppet. Why is that country not the wealthiest on earth?
Why do you insist on the tax hike if you're prescribing more spending just a few paragraphs ago? If spending is what's needed, then what difference does it make if the people spend their money rather than the government?
Again, you're a moron like Krugman.
Again, you're a moron like Krugman.
No. People, mistakenly, still listen to Krugman!
Nobody here is convinced by anything Tony spews.
Tony, I think you left off the link to the stone tablets where It Is Written that austerity must include tax hikes.
With no tax hikes, the 2005 level of expenditure would give us a balanced budget.
Is that with war spending off the books like how the Bushies calculated it?
Nope. That's all in and adjusted for inflation.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org.....?Docid=200
Is that with war spending off the books like how the Bushies calculated it?
Remember dimwit we're not republicans....you concede the point upthread. I doubt 1 out a 100 regular contributors were in favor of Bushes actions. Try this weak sauce somewhere else.
So how much spending is necessary? I never hear a number, just "more more more".
So how much spending is necessary? I never hear a number, just "more more more".
Yes....this is known as the "ex wife" school of economics!
Probably a couple trillion more than we've spent. So not much more than the Bush tax cuts cost.
tony,
tax cuts didn't "cost" anyone anything, unless you subscribe to the notion of any dollar that anyone earns being the property of govt, which is pretty standard liberal thinking. By the wya, the Bush years - for all their faults - had 54 straight months of job growth. Obama, meanwhile, is singular in actively pursuing a depression. Or did you think he meant 'change' in a good way....
"Probably a couple trillion more than we've spent"? LOL, can you vague that up for me a bit? I don't understand how you can be so certain that spending is the answer when you don't even know how much more is "needed".
Tony and his ilk call that "tax expenditures", wareagle... and Orwell himself couldn't have created a better example of Newspeak, and *he created Newspeak*.
Government had x amount of revenue since the Bush tax cuts were implemented compared to y, the revenue it would have had without the cuts. y>x. I don't know why you feel the need to constantly muddle the conversation by injecting your moral absolutism with respect to taxes. If they can only ever go down, then you're just not treating the issue seriously.
As I posted below, there is no equation to taxes/spending, and morality.
I'm also not calling for taxes to "go down" - you know full well I've advocated leaving them where they are, which YOU equate with immorality.
You're also saying that the gov't would *definitely* have had "Y" amount of money if not for the tax cuts, thereby once again foretelling the past.
But "y" is an unknown quantity. Have you heard of science?
True. But Tony's REAL beef is, when the tax cuts happened, that was less money to be wasted on government spending.
Let's give it shot anyway. We've tried your stupid way long enough.
Re: Stoopid In America,
Irrelevant. Whether it's a success or a failure is always in the eye of the beholder. The true question is if it's economically sound and moral. All government projects fail in these two regards.
Just the fact that people will not see their property stolen from them is enough of an incentive.
Keep your religion off my body.
Keep your grubby hands out of my wallet.
Where did anyone mention religion, Tony? I see that OM mentioned morality...is this what you mean? Didn't you refer to libertarianism being morally bankrupt because it doesn't take into account the "needs" of the poor earlier in the comments? Are you claiming that morality is great when mentioned by your type of people but bad when mentioned by someone arguing against you (I'm sure you'd call OM a "right winger")? Double standards?
Re: DK,
He means that my position on taxation - which is that it is theft - is religious in nature. It is nothing more than an Ad Hominem, like calling someone "racist" to end the discussion.
It IS a conversation stopper. Instead of just recognizing that governments have the power to raise taxes, thus including that power as part of a fiscal discussion, you have to revert to "taxation is theft" and thereby absolve yourself of any responsibility in making a sane fiscal argument.
Raising taxes and increasing spending via massive borrowing = sane fiscal argument?
What you're saying here is that disagreeing with you is a conversation stopper. When people come out against the death penalty because it's immoral, do you tell them it's a conversation stopper, get over it, governments have the power to execute, included as part of the justice system? Why don't you just recognise that the government has the power to regulate your sexual behaviour all it wants? Also, whenever somebody does make a fiscal argument your reply is always basically to take a step back and say, "No! Make a Keynesian fiscal argument!"
There is no comparing fiscal policy to morality.
Period.
Why do you want to "grow employment" in hugely expensive government jobs when these positions are a net drain on overall productivity/
I declare all the money spent on the Department of Education a failure.
No Tony, what you fail to offer is an explanation for how having a third of your income vanish down the black hole that is the federal government will grow employment.
All I know is that the more unilateral wars of choice I start, the bigger the government will grow. Fuck the other stuff, war distracts the taxpayers.
Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid declared, "It's very clear that private-sector jobs have been doing just fine; it's the public-sector jobs where we've lost huge numbers."
Call me a traditionalist but I like the zombies that shamble aimlessly about and eat brains better than the ones who run the Senate and make stupid, provably wrong remarks.
People vote for this guy? Really?
Exhibit A in the Tea Party's greatest blunders -- running outsider morons against incumbent morons. qv Christine whatshername in Delaware and Linda McMahon in Connecticut.
Linda McMahon is running again... this time for Lieberman's seat in 2012.
I think she's going to get it.
That wasn't the Tea Party's fault. That was the Republican establishment's fault for thinking they could shove losers like Mike Castle down the electorate's throats. The ran the best they had.
You're telling me there was no true conservative in Delaware who was less nutjobby than Christine O'Donnell?
Threadjack.
What I blogged about at the beginning of the month - the social benefit of profits - is eloquently told as well by Walter Williams:
Profits Are For People
By Walter Williams
Excerpt:
See my most recent post about Discovery Channel's Curiosity and their 2-part episode called "I, Caveman," about how this episode shows the role of division of labor and profit-seeking as cooperation tools and how they're socially beneficial.
Walter Williams is a national treasure.
I don't think anyone claims that Hoover implemented laissez-faire policies. The comparison to Obama is apt however in the sense that neither has spent enough to accomplish the goal of stimulus. It took ignoring deficits and massive government spending in WWII to accelerate recovery and end the depression. Nowhere was laissez-faire tried, and nowhere did it succeed at anything. All the revisionist history in the world cannot squeeze in a small-government explanation for the eventual recovery.
derp strawmen derp
You are a moron. How many 4 trillions is enough?
In 1922-23, we had a deeper recession than 1929. Harding / Coolidge cut spending, cut taxes, and paid down debt. After the deep, nasty recession, the economy took off into the Roaring Twenties.
Hoover / FDR and Bush / Obama both did the opposite. The economy went into a long slide both times.
Re: Head In Sand Award Winner,
http://aaron-d-pendell.suite10.....ion-a41073
Another lie from the sockpuppet dispelled here. There ARE people that still insist Hoover and his Laissez-faire policies made the Great Depression worse.
Such a great economic theory this is - the goal posts can be moved further and further in order to conclude that the efforts are always insufficient.
Name a single Keynesian who thinks the stimulus money spent thus far should have been enough to return to full employment.
Name a single Keynsean who has proven that any Keynesean stimulus program ever tried on the planet has ever worked.
I was going to say you stopped trying, but you keep trying the same worthless nonsense. it is like saying name one NAMBLA member who agrees with the age of adulthood.
Obama and his economic advisors. At least, that's what they claimed to think before spending the money. This "sure the leeches didn't cure you; we just need more leeches!" schtick didn't start until the "recovery" failed to.
Better yet, name a single Keynesian. Even if I agreed with Keynesianism, stimulus is only part of the equation. Keynes said that stimulus should be short term, focused, and accompanied by lower taxes. Assuming that recovery ever happens, then government should reduce spending and raise taxes to pay off the accumulated debt. Modern Keynesians want to raise taxes to help fund a broad stimulus and, if we recover, still spend more than they take in. You say, "Nowhere was laissez-faire tried, and nowhere did it succeed at anything." and you're half right. It's never been fully tried and neither has Keynes. Given the choice, I'd rather have the one that doesn't stick us with multi trillion dollar debts if it doesn't work.
Re: Stoopid In America,
*slaps forehead*
That's the whole point of what I wrote, you twit. Not a single Keynesian wants to fix the goalposts, so they never have to explain why their theories do not work.
They're the only ones with any empirical evidence on their side. Austrians don't even care about evidence.
I now consider Keynesianism a religion, and demand it be kept off my body.
Which isn't to say it's simply competing holistic economic worldviews... Keynesianism has become more sophisticated over time (Keynes himself didn't do a lot of the math that would come along later).
I don't like to do this, but citation very needed.
Keynes was a fool, Tony. The sooner you stop embracing His Sweet Name, the sooner you'll stop bitching about wealth disparity and other "empathy table" issues.
Tony, you are incorrect in saying, "Austrians don't even care about evidence." Austrians care about evidence, and realize that the best evidence is the millions of individual economic transactions that occur daily. These transactions create a spontaneous order that defines a market. The market transmits very valuable information to Austrians, notably price signals, which are functions of supply and demand. This information is current, robust, and therefore more useful than Keynesian economic models or forecasts.
Yes, they have empirical evidence that the policy doesn't work but if we all just close their eyes and wish really hard then this time it will be different.
I don't think anyone claims that Hoover implemented laissez-faire policies.
LOL at this goonfiction.
Alright, dammit, I need something explained RIGHT NOW -- how in the hell do food rations and an almost total dearth of non-essential consumer products equal accelerated recovery and depression's end??
"Hoover's massive government interventionism did not end the Great Depression"
But, but Hoover was a free marketer who sat on his hands and allowed rapacious capitalism to ruin the country until FDR came along and saved the country from the Great Depression.
At least that's what I've heard all my life from the professionl historian class.
As a professional historian, may I be the first to offer you this: "Hoover's massive government interventionism did not end the Great Depression."
Seriously though, Hoover came from an engineering background, does anyone believe an engineer would ever consider being hands off?
Carter was a noocoolear engineer - he perfected the misery index.
Wow Tony if we could just start a world war that would destroy our competition and send 250,000 of our best and most able bodied men to their deaths to solve the unemployment problem, things would be great. And Roosevelt massively increased spending in the 1930s, but as you even admit, the depression didn't end until the war. That is hardly an endorsement for spending as a way to end a depression.
Already hinted at as a possible remedy by Krugnutz!
As opposed to what? A bunch of slogans about regulations and freedom that amount to "elect Republicans"?
It would be nice if we could spend the necessary amount on useful endeavors rather than a hugely expensive war, but unfortunately people tolerate massive spending more on the latter. Even on phony wars over invisible WMD.
As opposed to the same way we ended the deep downturns before the one in 1929, by letting the business cycle run its course. The downturns of 1837 and 1873 were both much worse than the one in 1929, but didn't last nearly as long.
"Hope and Change" was not an empty slogan designed to elect Republicans. Neither is "Eat the Rich" or "The Jews Did It", but that might help elect more Republicans than in 2010.
It would be nice if we could spend the necessary amount on useful endeavors rather than a hugely expensive war, but unfortunately people tolerate massive spending more on the latter. Even on phony wars over invisible WMD.
On this we are in agreement! Again with few exceptions most here aren't Republicans and were against all the "fun" in Iraq and the rest of the middle east!
So is your guy going to double down on Iran? That should be very....stimulative!
It would be nice if we could spend the necessary amount on useful endeavors rather than a hugely expensive war, but unfortunately people tolerate massive spending more on the latter. Even on phony wars over invisible WMD.
50 years ago, the country had a high marginal tax rate, a booming economy, spent over half its budget on national defense programs, and still kept spending under $1 trillion, adjusted for inflation.
What you're advocating is a Ponzi economy that can't survive without inflation. That's why you and the Krugmans of the world are hell-bent on keeping the cost of living at bubble levels. You know damn well that the minute deflation occurs, your ponzi socialism collapses.
what everyone also forgets is that all of the keynsians of the time (ie samuelson) where all saying that another depression was going to occur after WWII when all that aggrgate demand disappeared. What actually occured was a boom for most of the next decade.
^^This^^ The keynesians never talk about that. And they also never talk about how the wanted to keep the war rationing and planning systems in place after the war. That is why the Republicans took over the Congress in 1946 because people were so revolted by the prospect.
They wanted to keep a Soviet style bread ration or something?
More or less. They wanted to keep war era rationing and control. Just keep going right on as we were only producing consumer goods rather than tanks. They were outright communists is what they were.
Oog. Don't let Obama's Top. Men. find that nugget of historical truth...
Don't forget that FDR seriously contemplated a 100% tax on the wealthy.
what everyone also forgets is that all of the keynsians of the time (ie samuelson) where all saying that another depression was going to occur after WWII when all that aggrgate demand disappeared. What actually occured was a boom for most of the next decade.
Shhhh! You'll screw up the narrative!
Thank you New Deal.
...thank the New Deal for what, exactly? Setting the template for perpetual, dead-end "poverty eradication" programs?
...thank the New Deal for what, exactly? Setting the template for perpetual, dead-end "poverty eradication" programs?
In fairness, FDR did actually close out the WPA and CCC in less than a decade. Medicare and Medicaid will be with us right up until the production/deficit curve crosses.
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong ? somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. ? I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. ? And an enormous debt to boot."
Henry Morgenthau
- FDR's Secretary of the Treasury
And even people get the history of the war wrong. Think about what we did during world war II. We stopped letting people buy any consumer goods. You couldn't buy a car or anything. And also they got people to save the money they earned by buying war bonds. Of course the economy boomed after the war given the pent up demand and savings people had.
And the rest of the Industrialized World reduced to rubble.
The numbers show that exports really were a small part of the US economy post world war II. The boom really was an internal demand based boom. So it wasn't because we got rich rebuilding the rest of the world.
The rest of the world got rich by our rebuilding Japan, France and Germany. The Soviets got rich by having the new slaves we gave them build things until they starved to death.
We were better off with the rest of the world getting rich. And the Soviets never got rich doing anything.
The comment about the rest of the industrialized world being burnt to ash wasn't talking about our exports, it explains why all that pent-up consumer demand was met almost entirely by domestic corporations. Detroit didn't have to compete with anything from Japan or Germany, so they could afford all those give-aways to the UAW, etc.
After WWII, every surviving automaker could sell anything it could make with four wheels, and people would be on waiting lists for months for whatever they could buy.
Tony seems to be leaving out the postwar economy boom, focusing solely on the during-the-war cost-plus contracts the gov't gave U.S. manufacturers.
The ones at the top did.
#1
US industry and and labor pretty much enjoyed a world monoply due to this unlike the present day.
Don't forget taxes and the size of government were both cut.
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....93848.html
except Obama's depression is intentional.
Then send him to a shrink.
Suck it, OWS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....EB68810A5A
You deserve David Duke as a supporter, Occutards.
He's a Tea Parter. He's just pretending to side with OWS.
OBAMA'S DEPRESSION is caused by the resentment of his father and he is taking it out on Americans by treasury-busting military aggression abroad and economy wrecking policies at home....
Its hard to believe how much damage Obama has done to our nation in less than 3 years. His massive wasted corrupt spending, payoffs to the unions, and Solyndra's has left us with so much debt it could cause a financial collapse and at best we will be paying for Obama's wasted spending for decades. Worse Obama's war on American business and extreme left wing economic policies have left millions and millions UNEMPLOYED with no hope of employment anytime soon, maybe ever. Obama is at least the worst thing to happen to our nation since Herbert Hoover and the Great Depression. If he's reelected it will be worse!
I saw a pro-wars-of-aggression, pro-corruption, pro-loot-your-neighbor, pro-billionare-banker-bailout, pro-class-envy, pro-fascist-police-state Prius driver with an Obama 2012 bumper sticker....no fucking shame....
I drive down a certain city street almost daily, and saw the same Prius with the same Obama 2012 sticker, every time.
Until a couple of weeks ago... the owner took it off, apparently out of shame.
Maybe there IS hope.
Someone may have torn it off in lieu of keying the car.
The history of Hoover's stimulus spending and the Fed's attempts at monetary manipulation are chronicled in Paul Johnson's MODERN TIMES. And it was published in the 1980's. It is remarkable to observe the same mistakes being made again. I hope that another asian country does not mistake our financial weakness as an opportunity to strike militarily as in 1941.
That's an awesome book just for the fact that he's so contrarian about the conventional wisdom of 20th century Marxist-crafted history. It takes a lot of balls, frankly, to act as an apologist for Franco, Pinochet, and Nixon with no hint of irony whatsoever, while simultaneously taking a shit all over SWPL saints such as Ghandi and JFK.
I'm just glad we are now calling a spade a spade. It's a depression, kids; not some double-dip period of contraction or some other bullshit label.
The Great Depression was caused by the "laissez faire" and deregulation economic theories of 4 republican presidents leading up to Hoover, just as this great recession was caused by the same "laissez faire" "trickle down" theories of Bush/Cheney.
The laissez faire, deregulation and trickle down economic theories of the GOP/TP are dead, twice over now.
Time to dump the GOP/TP if they cannot dump their regressive economic policies that have only ruined and hurt this country.
And then the country can get on with the business of cleaning up their fiscal mess, including the lowered national credit rating the GOP/TP congress gave us in 2011.
Great Depression and New Deal, 1929-1939
iws.collin.edu/kwilkison/Online1302home/.../DepressionNewDeal.ht... - Cached
Another way of understanding FDR's Depression-fighting efforts is to analyze the politics of ... financial impact can be used as a counterweight to current market forces. ... and sponsored what amounted to price-fixing as an emergency measure. .... by the Axis Powers (Germany, Japan and Italy) Roosevelt and the Congress ...
Causes of the Great Depression
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Causes.htm - Cached
The fact that the Great Depression began in 1929, then, on the Republicans' watch, is a great embarrassment to conservative economists. Many try to blame the ...
Is that what they taught you in Third Grade?
p.s. There were 2 Republican Presidents before Hoover, prior to that was 2 terms for Wilson.
Even if that were true, in order to believe that Laissez-Faire causes busts, then you have to believe it causes booms as well.
"Trickle down" is a system where the state (which holds a monopoly on force) takes and/or shifts our money around to try to get as much of it as possible to the top of the food chain.
That's not laissez-faire.
Link?
I contacted Hinkle and he sent me the link, if anyone's interested:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08.....spend.html
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Funny video of the 2012 presidential debates with Obama, Romney, Perry and Paul.
http://youtu.be/ut-Qxb1_4H4
Thank you