"We want to have a police force that can handle the most demanding assignments with the least amount of force"

At The Agitator, Reason Contributing Editor Radley Balko flags a remarkable story from Norway:

Many foreign journalists covering the July terrorist attacks in Norway were surprised to learn that Norwegian police are generally unarmed. A new survey indicates they want to stay that way.

"We want to have a police force that can handle the most demanding assignments with the least amount of force," Arne Johannessen, head of the police officers' union Politiets Fellesforbund, told Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK) this week.

A survey of the union's own members showed that fully 60 percent of the police officers questioned said they do not want to be armed at all times. At present, they only arm themselves after receiving authorization in dangerous situations.

As Balko observes, "It's pretty rare to see government officials not only not use a crisis to grab more power, but to actually refute suggestions that they should."

Comments

[Joe M]

What are the gun control laws for citizens like in Norway?

[Eduard van Haalen]

At least they want to disarm across the board - disarm the cops as well as the citizens.

Which raises the question - how do unarmed cops disarmed citizens who violate the gun-control laws? For that matter, how well do they disarm murderers who are in the middle of killing sprees against disarmed citizens?

[EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy]

Presumably they call for backup to stop by the station house and bring some guns...

[R]

My understanding is that, at least prior to the shooting, they were fairly relaxed for a European nation. Probably even better than a couple of US states I could name.

I have not kept up on how that's changed since the shooting.

[Aresen]

Norwegian Police earn respect through integrity and judgment; they don't demand it by virtue of their gun and "authority".

[Aresen]

Sorry, that last word should be "authoritah".

;P

[Dumbfy]

Surveys show that police are well-liked and respected by everyone. Surveys are always an accurate reflection of beliefs. People never lie on surveys.

[Aresen]

OK that's 7 points.

There are six more answars on the board and you have no strikes against you.

[Also Dumfy]

And I'm sure those surveys were evenly distributed in the ghetto, as well as in white soccer moms in suburban strip-malls.

[Coeus]

They should be done like customer surveys. Pass them out with tickets.

[BigT]

No ghettos in Norway. Very homogeneous, educated, wealthy population due to N Sea oil boom since ~1965.

[obv]

An unarmed police force is a luxury of a relatively peaceful society. If Norway gets violent, the police will demand guns. The Norway police should not be credited with some mythical moral superiority.

[anarch]

Know who else credited...?

[anarch]

Norway... Nordic... whatsa dif.

[Coeus]

Even in a relative peaceful society, it contridicts our doctrine of "officer safety at all costs".

[Speeder Mark]

Two things:

- The faults of a society can be traced to the faults of the individuals who make up significant portions of that society. If people are raised to think it's okay to act like a turd, then you will have lots of people who act like turds.

- Setting aside the massive number of American police officers who have absolutely no business whatsoever working as police officers on account of personality, there is a legitimate need for those who enforce law to be armed. This should not only be for the protection of the police themselves but for protection of the public - that is, there are times in which the police need to be able to put a stop to something immediately (as the Norwegians themselves learned in the recent mass murder incident). I think training, intelligence testing, and better personality screening would be helpful in reducing the number of really infuriating police foul-ups and abuses of power.

[califronian]

Any given police force could be reduced by 90% at LEAST. You don't need a badge and a special car to take traffic accident reports or burglary reports.

How many violent crimes in progress are actually interrupted by armed cops ? That's how many cops a city actually needs, the rest is secretary work.

[obv]

How many violent crimes in progress are actually interrupted by armed cops ?

How many crimes are never committed because a uniformed cop is seen? Have you ever slowed down while driving when you saw a cop car?

[Aresen]

How many crimes are never committed because a uniformed cop is seen?

How many situations are needlessly escalated because a cop thinks his gun gives him the right to order people around? (If you hae read Radley's site for any period of time, you would know this is not a hypothetical question.)

[obv]

A nation of 300 million people and Balko cherry picks the abuses. The overwhelming percentage of encounters between police and citizens are peaceful and don't escalate. Disarm the police and just see how the bad guys react ... and how the good citizens cower in their homes in fear.

[tarran]

It's not cherry picking. He attempted to do a survey showing that abuses are pretty commonplace. A systematic survey is impossible, since police departments are loathe to publish stats on the methods and outcomes of warrant services.

The problem, of course, is that while some police departments genuinely do the job by the book, others are nothing more than violent gangs of extortionists with cool uniforms and the trust of Scalia.

[Coeus]

How many crimes are never committed because a uniformed cop is seen? Have you ever slowed down while driving when you saw a cop car?

If that's so important to safety, why do we have so many plain clothes officers and "stealth" and undercover police cars?

[obv]

why do we have so many plain clothes officers

We don't. The first response when crime starts to get bad in a neighborhood is an increased police "presence" - uniformed officers patrolling to let would-be criminals know that they might get caught. Police visibility is a key part of law enforcement, but visibility doesn't mean much when the police are seen as impotent to deal with criminals, as they would be if they were disarmed.

[Coeus]

Speak for yourself. Fully half of the police cars I see in Houston are ghost lettered with recessed lighting. And I definitely live in what would be considered a "bad neighborhood". Further, I have twice seen plain clothes officers taping on microphones in the back of a convenience store I frequent. If they're so rare, what are the odds I've seen them twice in the 5 minutes it takes to strap that thing on?

[obv]

Obviously, you hobnob with the criminal underworld and so you notice such things.

[Coeus]

Just because you don't notice such things, doesn't mean that they don't happen, it means that you're apparently misinformed as to police intentions.

Cops are just like the rest of the population, 80% want to be able to tell others what to do, and damn the consequences. You really think that translates well into "public sacrifice" and "protect and serve"?

It doesn't. It translates into "respect my authority" (but they really mean fear) and get the law breaker (regardless of the stupidity of the law). You should read the comments on policeone.com sometime. It should prove a very enlightening experience for you.

[Cytotoxic]

Maybe they should use the crisis to their power. Cops should have guns generally.

[SIV]

Yeah

Only a "socially liberal" dipshit thinks it is a virtue for police (or anyone for that matter) to be unarmed. The problems with and abuses by police are not caused or "aggravated" by their weapons.

Telling that the survey and spokesman was the police union and that the policy is all top down "command and control". Let scores of children get shot while waiting for "authorization" to arm and act.

[Coeus]

Can we at least settle for not giving them electro-torture devices?

[Copernicus]

The Norwegian Police are pussies and opt to not carry guns for the following reason:

When the shit hits the fan (deadly scenario), they are unable to respond (probably by policy) until they are properly armed. That requires a side trip to the nearest (or furthest) armory. By the time they get to the scene, everyone (not a cop) is dead.

I'm sure their police Volvos (I know, but I like the sound of it) are fully stocked with paper towels and plastic bags for the "clean up".

[kbolino]

Murder rate in US: 5.4 per 100,000
Murder rate in Norway: 0.8 per 100,000

(10-year averages from 2000 to 2009)

Population of the U.S: roughly 300,000,000
Population of Norway: roughly 5,000,000

So, roughly, 40 people are murdered every year in Norway, while 15,000 people are murdered every year in the US.

Anders Breivik killed 77 people in 2011. Assuming the murder rate was otherwise constant, that would bring it up to about 2.4 per 100,000.

The worst crime in Norway in modern history brought their annual murder rate up to only half the average U.S. rate.

The causes and effects are certainly debatable, but they must be doing something right.

[Demographics is RACIST!]

What is the US murder rate among "Americans who look like Norwegians"?

[Copernicus]

I don't know if those murder stats are a reply to my "pussy police post", it looks like it, with the indenting.

1. the need (or not) for police to be armed is not only related to "murder stats".

2. The stats kind of make my point. Being a policeman in Norway sounds like one of the safest jobs on the planet. They should not be so afraid of once-in-a-blue-moon actually responding quickly to a violent scene.

[kbolino]

1. You said they drive "clean-up Volvos" so I think you established the "unarmed police = more murders" connection before I posted anything.

2. Which is the cause, and which is the effect? Is Norway safer because police are less inclined to use violence, or are police less inclined to use violence because Norway is safer?

Either way, increasing the police armament seems both unnecessary and dangerous.

[Copernicus]

You are missing all the points.

1. If you are going to arrive 30 minutes late to the blood bath, a full stock of paper towels is all the armament you need. Absoltely no connection made (implied or otherwise) between armed police and murder rate. I just said the Norwegian police are pussies.

2. Cause and effect never a point. I called the Norwegian police pussies because they prefer not to be armed, which means they prefer to have a built in excuse not to get mussed.

doesn't matter which country has more or less violence, or murders, or crime. All countries do. The question is: what are the police doing to protect the "good guys".

[kbolino]

>>>You are missing all the points.

Pot, meet kettle.

>>>The question is: what are the police doing to protect the "good guys".

Clearly, if fewer people are dying then the police must be protecting the "good guys". At some point, people have to be accountable based upon results and not merely intentions.

[bill]

Unarmed cops are like vibrators without batteries, useless.

[Bill]

Like my dick