Politics

The Possibility of a Tea Party-Occupy Wall Street Alliance

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In the spirit of this rocking Venn diagram, The Atlantic's Conor Friedersdorf posits that an opposition to bailouts and crony capitalism could—and should— be enough to justify a you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours merging of the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street protesters. 

Friedersdorf offers a mixture of fairly sound ideological reasons for such a meeting, but also points out that people make these sorts of pragmatic, limited alliances all the time. They are, indeed, the nature of politics (which could be a problem for some sign-waving purists.)

The take-away:

Tea partiers and Occupy Wall Street protestors could vote for different candidates in 2012, fight vociferously about the ideal size of the federal government, and meanwhile cooperate to prevent big business and co-opted bureaucrats from capturing money that could be better spent (on tax cuts or deficit reduction or infrastructure or social welfare benefits, depending on the outcome of another fight). If the United States and the USSR struck mutually beneficial treaty agreements during the 1980s, if the ACLU and the NRA have usefully allied on civil liberties issues, despite their strikingly different donor bases, there is no reason save stubbornness and political immaturity that the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street can't find areas on which to cooperate. Perhaps the Cato Institute and the Center for American Progress can co-host the summit, and Rand Paul and Dennis Kucinich can co-sponsor the resulting reform legislation.  

Rand Paul and Dennis Kucinich co-sponsoring legislation is almost as wacky as Barney Frank and Ron Paul co-sponsoring legislation. (Their federal legalization of marijuana bill makes a little more sense, though. Libertarians know Kucinich is an ally when it comes to matters like the drug war. Some of his other views leave something to be desired.)

The actual maker of the above Venn diagram, who blogs under the name How Conservatives Drove Me Away, had this to say:

Occupy Wall Street, at its core, is a reaction to the increasing power and influence of large corporations. The Tea Party, at its core, is a reaction to the government's constant interference with private enterprise. But wait a minute—aren't those things connected?

Bailouts, subsidies, tax breaks, special rights and privileges, regulations designed to restrict competition—to name a few of the many ways the government protects and stimulates corporate interests, and those things are every bit as anti-free market as, not to mention directly related to, the high taxes and excessive bureaucracy that gets Tea Partiers riled up

Anthony Gregory, a research editor for the Independent Institute flirted with the idea of an alliance between the two groups, for similar reasons:

A movement finely focused on resisting Washington's corporatism and bailouts, however, could potentially be much stronger and wider, bringing together at least some of the anti-Obama Right, elements of the anti–Wall Street Left, and libertarians too. The conservatives would have to agree to leave their anti-immigrant and prowar signs at home, and the lefties would have to put aside their demands for national healthcare and prohibitions on gasoline.

But he later concludes that the ideological climate will not allow an alliance like this to happen, because the real problem is government and anyone demanding bailouts for the middle class instead of banks is still missing the point.

Finally, Adam Kokesh got straight down to it by going to Occupy DC and interviewing a Texan in a Ron Paul shirt alongside Kevin Zeese, one of the organizers of the October 2011 anti-war movement which is also pro "health care for all" and wants to "tax the rich and corporations." The two of them—and Kokesh—have a respectful debate and agree to maybe ally on certain things, but once again the fundamental differences in their definitions of capitalism, who is to blame for the trashed economy, and possible solutions makes the idea of a earth-changing alliance, or even a limited, pragmatic one, seem doubtful indeed. 

Reason on Occupy Wall Street and on the Tea Party. What Reason.tv saw at Occupy Wall Street, below:

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  1. Yes, just like liberaltarians?

    1. Just ask Terry Michael!

      1. Indeed, Mr. Cloak of Anonymity! (heh heh)

        Reason, moar Lucy Steigerwald articles please.

        That is all.

        1. +1. Steigerwald is a standout new addition. Her posts are fun, but short and sweet. Which provides a nice counterbalance to Cavanaugh’s epic journeys into the heart of California housing/obscure pop culture darkness.

          1. More importantly, I bet she’s totally a babe.

            1. You guys are silly.

              Thanks, though.

          2. Tweeted or twittered or whatever it’s called.

  2. White people of the world, unite!

    1. Can I half-unite?

    2. *Displays jazz hands*

    3. Dyslexics of the world UNTIE!

    4. Sorry are white people stopping non-whites from going? No? If you actually care about that particular problem, then go help work on the root cause. But somehow I don’t think that’s what you’re all about.

      1. It’s a joke on the way the tea party was portrayed. He understands that the majority demographic in a country will usually be the majority demographic at an event purporting to cover a topic affecting all Americans. It’s just fucking hilarious to see people having to defend the exact thing they were mocking less than a month ago.

      2. You might want to retune you sarcasm meter.

  3. One would have to wonder how long the alliance between libertarians and the GIMME ALL THE FREE SHITZ movement would last.

    1. You know, there is a way. They cooperatively dismantle most of the government’s regulatory regime, dramatically cut spending and taxation, but leave in place some social welfare programs. That way, the economy will boom like never before, and the people who want freebies can get theirs, which will be much less painful if we’re a boom economy.

      Never understood why the left didn’t push for something like this until I realized they want power, not social justice.

      1. WHAT??!!?? YOU WANT TO REDUCE FEDERAL SPENDING? WINGNUT! REPUBLICAN NAZI! SOCIAL DARWINIST! BLARRRRRRGHHLLLLLLL…

        1. I think I was called a Nazi no more than twice before I stopped caring.

          1. I’ve never been called a Nazi, but I have been called (i) an arch-capitalist in a Political Philosophy class (freshman college course), and (ii) “right of Attila the Hun.” The latter makes little sense to me, as I don’t think Attila was a Republican.

            1. Pro Libertate is a Nazi.

              1. In my Asian Philosophy class, we were discussing ancient Egyptian society and how the Pharaohs used the gods’ example of sister-marriage as an excuse to marry their own sisters.

                I posited the alternate interpretation that maybe they really wanted to marry their sisters and shaped the stories of the gods to further that goal.

                Three fellow student spent turns lecturing me on racism.

                1. I have no idea how this could possibly be viewed as racism.

                2. You were very close to being correct.

                  Sister-marriage was a common feature of eastern Mediterranean monarchies for a pretty simple reason:

                  If you don’t marry your sister, and she marries someone else, her kids can compete with your kids for dynastic power, because they will be descended from your father.

                  Hence the need to concoct religious myths that make it totally appropriate for you to fuck your sister.

                  1. Yeah, the professor even tried explaining about matrilineal inheritance. I was still being racist, apparently. It was all pretty surreal.

                3. …the Pharaohs used the gods’ example of sister-marriage as an excuse to marry their own sisters.

                  “I’m not going to live in a town that won’t let me marry my cousin!”

                  1. “Who will come and live a life devoted to chastity, abstinence, and a flavorless mush I call ‘rootmarm’?”

              2. I have been called (i) an arch-capitalist in a Political Philosophy class (freshman college course), (ii) a Nazi, and (iii) “right of Attila the Hun.” The latter makes little sense to me, as I don’t think Attila was a Republican.

                1. The 21 minute double post. Is this a record?

                  1. It’s an amended post, not a double post.

                    1. Derp. Me am no gud read.

              3. An arch-Nazi.

                1. Are you calling me that? Because I’ll have to amend my amended posting, if so.

                  1. Yes. I demand an amended amended posting.

                    1. Although I think you’re probably to the right of the arch-Nazis.

                    2. I have been called (i) an arch-capitalist in a Political Philosophy class (freshman college course), (ii) a Nazi, (iii) an arch-Nazi, (iv) “right of Attila the Nazi,” and (v) “right of Attila the Hun.” The latter makes little sense to me, as I don’t think Attila was a Republican. Or a Nazi.

            2. I suspect he was quite the progressive given all of the shit he took for free.

              1. It’s all the same in the end. If they take it, they ain’t giving it all (or any of it) back, whatever mask they wear to justify their taking.

            3. The typical Republican is not Right at all, other than being against the right shoulder of a Progressive/Democrat. It is easy to be Right of Attila, who was reborn as Stalin. The Libertarian is the actual opposite of Nazi/Fascist/Communist, so they could have been correct by accident.

              1. I was just using shorthand. Obviously, Attila wasn’t left or right by modern standards. He just conquered people, took stuff, and moved on.

                1. ? They had themselves a party at the point of a gun
                  They were slightly to the right of Attila the Hun
                  A bomb or two and very few objected ?

                2. “right of Attila the Hun”

                  odd. I’ve had that one too.

                  1. Me too. I think it sprung from the Simpsons episode where Homer takes the rap for Patty or Selma’s cigarette and the boss-lady slaps him and says “You sir, are worse than Hitler!”

                    Seems like a lot of people seized on that and thought “bad-historical-person+RIGHTWINGER!!!!!!!!= Effective argument.”

                3. “He just conquered people, took stuff, and moved on.”

                  The typical Socialist since the days of Marx.

                4. Sounds good to me.

        2. Grandma, cat food, streets, etc., etc.

    2. Is that a reference to FreedomWorks, JW?

      It’s quite understandable that many in the OWS movement are positioning themselves in opposition to the free market and in favor of government intervention. After all, ever since they were born they’ve heard people like Dick Armey, Tom Delay, Ali Velshi, and the WSJ editorial staff defend corporate capitalism as we know it and the unbelievable concentration of wealth and power as the result of “our free market system,” and heard both mainstream liberals and conservatives agreeing that the kind of corporate power we live under is the natural and inevitable outcome of a free market unless the state intervenes to prevent it.

      Every time you look at a debate on economic policy, the liberal is saying the free market can’t be left to itself because the result is polarization of wealth and corporate tyranny. And the conservative is saying corporate tyranny and polarization of wealth are GOOD THINGS, and that government should stay out of it.

      Hell, if I thought the “free market” meant what oinkers like Dick Armey meant by it, I’d hate it too.

  4. I am starting to think that it all has to get worse before it gets better. Should be interesting.

    1. Don’t get killed for lack of shooting back.

  5. You’ll never see any convergence of the two groups because they both have antipathy for each other.

    It’s nothing more than Republicans vs. Democrats with different names.

    1. Why is it on every thread that compares two groups, there’s always one idiot who has nothing more interesting to say than “It’s just Republicans vs. Democrats,” but feels compelled to say something anyway?

  6. I’m not gonna say it’s completely, utterly, 100% impossible no matter what – it’s just that way here on Earth.

  7. “Occupy Wall Street, at its core, is a reaction to the increasing power and influence of large corporations. The Tea Party, at its core, is a reaction to the government’s constant interference with private enterprise. But wait a minute?aren’t those things connected?”

    Yes, they are connected … but the solutions proposed by OWS and the TP are diametrically opposed.

    1. Oh, and on the really, really important issue of war and empire, both OWS and the TP are incoherent. Half of OWS seems to support Obama, which despite any protest to the contrary means that they support war and empire, and at least half of the TP believes in the sort of American exceptionalism that authorizes the use of military force anywhere necessary to advance “American” values.

      1. WHY DOES U HATE TEH TRROOPZ!!??1

    2. Yep, this one sentence is all you need to answer the original question.

    3. Politicians are selling out voter interests to the highest bidder.

      So give the policiticans more money and power!

      1. I agree this is a big part of the problem. So why do we keep returning them to Dark Cesspool?

  8. Until the “Occupy” brats manage to put all the brain cells together and connect the dots as to WHY corporations are accumulating power and influence, they’re not worth even pissing on.

    I see that event with a probability approaching zero.

    1. This is the FIRST thing I thought of when I first heard of this movement.

      I’m hoping these people understand the root of our problems: Government regulation/intervention. A lot of what is being protested is directly related to disastrous government policies (TARP).

      If this point is not emphasized with this movement, it’s a lost cause.

  9. Yes, they are connected … but the solutions proposed by OWS and the TP are diametrically opposed.

    A winnah.

    The TP wants less government, lower spending, and less taxes. The Occupados want more government, more spending, and higher taxes.

    I don’t think you can bridge that gap.

    Its pretty much like saying “Gosh, the Dems and Reps both say that the deficit is too high. Why aren’t they joining hands and singing kumbayah?”

  10. Maybe it’s just me but I don’t see the TP folks, who want to get something done and go home, fitting in with this consensus nonsense.

    TP: Mic check, Mic check. Fuck this. I have shit to do.

    1. well that plus aint many teapartiers awake past 8pm

      1. herrrp derrrrp

      2. No one wants you here.

        1. i red red red ur msgs. again, i dont give a rip

  11. This “article” is ignorant, delusional, irresponsible nonsense; reason it *AIN’T*.

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/oc…..goals.html

    1. Retarded troll is retarded.

    2. Can you imagine what would have happened if a lone, goofy Tea Partier had made a similar speech?

      It would have been featured on every news channel, every half hour, for days.

      1. because everyone knows the violence comes from the right (remember all those violent tea party rallies), and never from the left, from trade unionists, students and other enlightented progressives.

      2. If anyone doubts this, go read the wikipedia article on the Tea Party movement. Every little random one person incident is discussed in detail.

        1. What a shame that a few bad apples has to spoil a good movement.

          1. What a shame that a few bad apples lying, race-baiting politicians, mental masturbation reported as fact and major news distributors altering pictures and quotes in order to maintain a narative which was created to obfuscate a simple message has to spoil a good movement.

            There. Fixed it for you.

    3. Wait for it….

      This! will cure all our illz!

  12. Both sides can agree that there is a problem, sure, but when they prescribe completely different solutions (less government vs. more government because the corporations own the government so the government has to be more powerful than the corporations that own the government which won’t only empower the corporations even more because… something) there can be no meaningful cooperation.

    1. Exactly. Both sides agree that the problem is “privatize the gains, socialize the losses”.

      But the right thinks the solution is “privatize the gains, privatize the losses” and the left thinks the solution is “socialize the gains, socialize the losses”. That’s an irreconcilable difference.

  13. During a Q&A with governor Christie yesterday, in “Hannity,” one of the Occupy people in the background was holding a sign that said: “REGULATE the MARKET, FREE the PEOPLE.”

    Just by that show of logical incompetence and stupidity, I cannot see how the Occupy people can ever ally themselves with Tea Partiers or libertarians.

    1. Their alliance is with Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, and Mussolini. Just wait for their reenactment of the Haymarket riot now that they have reenacted the 1884 mob march down Prairie Avenue. The new writers lapping this stuff up already will gladly blame all injuries and deaths on the “capitalists” and the police.

      1. None of my comfortable, well-educated friends and colleagues are taking this seriously. But the leftists are deadly serious.

      2. A lot of these kids are confused crusty-punk anarchists more in the Bakunin mold than Stalinists. They hate corporations and materialism, but that doesn’t mean there’s not a lot of shared ground, especially considering consistent libertarianism would end state incorporation.

        1. consistent libertarianism would end state incorporation.

          Why?

          Corporations are voluntary associations, after all. Quite libertarian.

          Corporate limited liability is quite consistent with notions of personal responsibility. No problem there.

          1. If you listen to the neo-Socialists, their description to Socialism is very close to a corporate structure. Voluntary pooling resources and all that. However, their idea of voluntary is a little different. It is more like two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for dinner.

            1. The result is the same with one wolf and two sheep. Dinner is pre-decided, the vote has been taken, polls are closed.

          2. If it’s all voluntary associations, you should have no problem removing the state subsidy for it. Most libertarians get this concept with marriage and seem to miss the concept with incorporation.

            I have no problem with corporate structuring and voluntary internal assignment of liability, merely with the socialization of risk.

            Liability has market value – that’s why proprietorships and partnerships purchase insurance. Corporations receive full liability protection for their owners in perpetuity for the miniscule cost of incorporation, and thus can cause potentially infinite damages with actual liability limited to only the percentage of personal assets the owners assigned to the business. Who pays after that percentage is breached? The victims and taxpayers?

            1. …that is why corporations must gave an indicator in their names that they are limited-liability organizations. Then, anyone dealing with them knows that there is, well, limited liability. Don’t like it? Then don’t deal with corporations.

              1. If Mexicans don’t like the drug cartels, they just shouldn’t associate with them, right? If you don’t like dangerous drivers, you should just stay off the roads and let them drive dangerously in peace?

                Everyone is forced to involuntarily associate with others by living in society where actions have effects. A corporation polluting a local water supply has nothing to do with whether the victims voluntarily associated with the business. Even a customer who buys a product due to the seller’s fraudulent marketing was technically not a voluntary associate because the implicit contract was built on deceptions that the seller otherwise would not have agreed to.

                1. …make that “deceptions that the buyer would not have agreed to”

    2. We, um, well, are, um, the market. It’s the whole fucking point. Friggin’ morons.

      1. Re: Pro Libertate,

        We, um, well, are, um, the market.

        Exactly.

  14. Silly Lucy,
    Non-dualism is a hard enough concept to understand spiritually, much less applying it to politics.

    This is why only the Buddha has achieved anuttara-samyak-sambodhi.

    1. Samyak. That’s Buddhist for Salma Hayek, isn’t it? That seems less otherworldly than they like to make us think they are.

  15. What is it with Reason still trying to believe the left will ever come around to their way of thinking?

    Are the cocktail parties that good?

    1. They went to journalism school. It’s hard to shake off the leftist propoganda they were subjected to.

    2. Yes, much better to be smugly self satisfied with your purity than to look for practical ways to accomplish at least a little bit of what you would like to see politically.

      And there are plenty of young adults who “come around” from being naive leftists, so I think it is perfectly reasonable and laudable to keep trying.

    3. No, it’s because the Right has problems so libertarians keep hoping that they can find an alternative, then they realize that the Left is much worse. One can be forced to work with the lesser of two evils, but one should never forget that it is evil.

    4. Leftists are generally more fun to hang out with.

  16. Unite? the OWS crowd is already 99%, how much more uniting can their be?

  17. They get together at dinner sometimes.

    OWS Kid: Can you give me an extra $50?

    TP Parent: No, get a job, and would it hurt you to cut your hair.

    TP parent (mumbles): Why’d I encourage junior to go to college?

  18. The ignorance of the writer is revealed by the choice of words Example: “prevent big business and co-opted bureaucrats from capturing money”.

    The term for government co-opting business is “shakedown.” These Socialists, of any stripe, so worship government that the believe any failure is due to some outside influence. Odd, since they elevate government to the status of righteous cop, but they hate cops too.

    The simple fact that the people with the police power are the ones who can resist co-option the best, as well as enforce shakedowns, is too much for them to understand.

    1. i never have gotten the hate of cops but the love of bureaucracy by the left – the latter are just cops in suits.

      1. The same reason the right loves cops on the streets but hates the cops in suits. It’s all about who’s hassling you the hardest. People want the government to fuck with OTHER people.

        1. Who says we like cops in the streets? How did we react to Bill Clinton’s police state proposal? Not well, I assure you.

          1. Nobody says you think that. But many self described right-wingers/conservatives do.

        2. People want the government to fuck with OTHER people.

          This more or explains everything. Do unto thee but not unto me.

  19. The OW’s oppose capitalism while embracing materialism. The TP’s oppose government spending while embracing entitlements. They’re both their own worst enemy. Ignore.

      1. How do you know? He wrote that in English, not Gibberish (i.e. your mother tongue.)

    1. Great point.

    2. Lefties in general have no problem with materialism, they just view capitalism as a barrier to the disenfranchised from grabbing all the stuff they want (but certainly don’t need).

      TP’s only have a problem with gov’t spending on OTHER PEOPLE’s entitlements…but you dare don’t lay a finger on THEIR’s.

  20. If these people want things to change then they should stop voting for the same politicians over and over again, since they normally do, they should stop pretending that there is some illuminati group controlling things, they are to blame no one else.

  21. This will never happen. The Occupiers make a mantra of wanting “people and not markets to decide”. The Tea Partiers, if intuitively and wildly inexactly, understand that the market is people. The only distinction is that the market is individual people deciding for themselves in uncoerced transactions, while the Occupiers want some people to have a gun to tell other people what to do.

    1. “…the market is people”

      how many people simply do not grasp it.

      1. Even more accurate would be “the market is people deciding for themselves”. So wanting “people and not markets to decide” is self-contradictory and very silly.

  22. I never can understand how someone who realizes that the problem is that our all-powerful government gives banks special privileges and favors can come to the conclusion that we need to grant even more control and power to the government to grant even more privileges and special favors to the banks.

    WTF

    1. And in return, those banks are absolutely required to loan to the unqualified.

  23. At lewrockwell.com, James Ostrowski has proposed Common Ground With the Occupy Wall Street Movement:

    1. End the Fed?2. End corporate welfare especially outright subsidies?3. Bring the troops home?4. Cut offensive military spending?5. End laws that create monopolies (e.g., preventing people from buying health insurance out of state)?6. Going way out on a limb here but, elect Ron Paul.

    1. I actually think this is actually a relatively good and savvy idea. Get a tangible pledge that a majority of the Tea Party and the OWS movement can both tangibly support without requiring any compromise on areas of disagreement, and send it to every politician and candidate. It would be similar to the “no-tax pledge” from Grover Norquist’s group.

      The media will go nuts over a Tea Party/OWS alliance. It would be fun to watch pundits’ heads implode. A coherent left-right coalition to end corporate welfare and bailouts would be more productive than both sides offering incoherent populist gibberish.

      1. Pouring bad water into good only makes more bad water. Every alliance with socialists just brings more socialists to power. Look what happened to the Republicans when they went Democrat.

        1. Frankly I’m not as concerned about more principled socialists like Kucinich and Nader who honestly and vocally advocate for gun prohibition and universal healthcare getting more power, compared to the average Democrat like Obama, who secretly still wants all of the above but dresses them in policy trojan horses while still increasing war, the drug war, corporate welfare and violations of rights.

          Moreover, the tax pledge got libertarians and Republicans to agree on an alliance and has been relatively effective in preventing tax increases (or holding politicians’ feet to the fire if they violate it). Why not a similar pledge against corporate welfare between libertarians/true conservatives and progressives?

          1. I don’t necessarily disagree, but you’d have to define “corporate welfare”. For many in the Occupy! crowd, no new taxes is corporate welfare.

            1. Of course – and they can believe that all they want, since tax policy would fall outside the coalition of shared outcomes.

              And they’d have to consistently be against union-driven and green energy bailouts as well. It will be easier to convince them of consistent action if you’re simultaneously cutting off the spigot for the military industrial complex and the irresponsible banks and lenders.

    2. One little problem. When the OWS crowd discovers that ending corporate welfare includes no more Uncle Sam underwriting of hybrid cars, windmills, and the education industry, they will be hanging Cosmotarians from lamp posts all along the waterfront before torching their bodies. Just a replay of 1863.

      1. Yeah, that’s what is going to happen.

      2. It was also end mortgage guarantees which would immediately stop loans to poor people.

  24. *Godwin Alert*

    Gee, I guess anything’s possible. During the Weimar Republic, even the Nazis and Communists formed tactical alliances when they both saw advantages to doing so.

    1. “even the Nazis and Communists formed tactical alliances ”

      Though in rhetoric they may have opposed each other, in practice they where cousins. National socialism is still socialism. Forming issue based alliances ist that far of a strech for those two groups.

      1. They did not oppose each other in rhetoric either, other than the nuance of nationalist vs. internationalist. Yes, were all Socialists and voted in lockstep with each other, with the Red Socialists saying “Brown first, then Red”, meaning the Nazis can drum up the support for Socialism to pave the way for the Communists. Just different parties of the same type. Like Progressive vs. Democrat.

    2. Same with Sunis and Shi’ites on occasion.

  25. The contrast couldn’t be clearer.

    Barack Obama ancestor of slave traders wants to shackle us with his brand the Obama brand of socialism called Obammunism? .

    Herman Cain ancestor of slaves wants to unshackle us from big government and free us from the shackles.

    Herman Cain is to Superman what Obama is to Bizarro.

    Who among us doesn’t want to see Cain debate Obama? Really you wouldn’t want to see that?

    I can’t wait to see Cain joke about and say to Obama “and if you don’t agree with me you’re a racist” as the crowd laughs. The comment mitigates all the rhetoric especially about the TP and makes laughing stock of the democrat smear tacitics they’ve been using forever to promote community organizing with envy politicking. The same class warfare rhetoric “organizers” like Jesse, Barrack and Sharpton have been using forever and just like the little red book calls for.

    The American people are sick of it and sick of the bickering and Herman Cain’s plan ends all of that with fairness. It could even lead to a more preferable flat-tax some day once we eliminate the catalyst for the division among us after a few years living in a booming economy.

    Herman Cain trying to put truth, justice and the American way back into the American way of life. If we get behind him and his bold plan we can show world how its done.

    It baffles the mind why more GOP faithful don’t recognize that potential, they will eventually though. Herman Cain is the man 9-9-9 is the plan. It’s unstoppable if you have command of it and knocks down problems at the source/root like dominoes. It can and will pass and bring with it a huge mandate Cain brings after winning a blowout. Climb aboard the Cain Train to solving our problems by addressing them at the root and we’ll be on our way to passage and prosperity.

    The contrast couldn’t be clearer people. Its almost as if its divine intervention. And even if you are conspiracy kook like that Alex Jonesian named Mechele Bachmann and believe there are ‘evil banksters’ behind the scenes pulling all the strings. The choice they are giving us couldn’t be clearer.

    Do we go we go with this or do we go with that…

    Remember too God allows freewill whether you believe in him or not the very fact you don’t is self evident to the concept.

    Remember too in a democracy you get the government you deserve.

    Herman Cain represents a chance for real hope with big bold change and a mandate to get it done if he wins because he is running on his vision and his well thought out solutions and presenting them to the people with a teleprompter. Imagine that.

    No Obama!
    No Pelosi!
    No Reid!
    No you can’t ram your “sacrifice the individual for the greater good” baloney down our throats.

    Cain’s 9-9-9 should be rammed through passage using the same tactics, it is a plan that addresses mulitple problems at the root and will create jobs jobs jobs just like Cain has said.

    Yes we Cain!

    Romney’s money can’t stop 9-9-9, its unstoppable if you have command of it.

    When I talk to people making these point I do in these forums I see them get pumped up as I am countering talking points or answering questions. And it isn’t as obvious as my sorely lacking grammatical skills as to where to put a period or a comma you may disapprove of while reading this. I am not a writer just a pissant American tired of the bullshit and same ole same ole around the edges tweaking that isn’t/hasn’t worked.

    The Herman Cain express Train is on its way and is unstoppable if you have command of it.

    Herman is us, we are Herman e pluribis unum style. Cain gave us a plan so we can all be Hermanators if we take command of it.

    *cue music*

    I am America….

    Herman’s train has the potential to be “intercontinental” too if we all get on board and show the world capitalism with fairness is the road to prosperity instead of their socialist road to perdition.

    The choice could not be clearer as contrasted by Cain and Obama. Please America say no to more tinkering around the edges that hasn’t worked in the past as the deficit and government just keep growing and growing no matter who controls it, their it is: http://www.usdebtclock.org/ind

    Also keep in mind that along with 9-9-9 Herman Cain will repeal Obamacare, repeal the correct business killing regulations, unshackle the EPA etc…just like all the other candidates.

    Also to you Paulies. Ron can never be elected in a country where he has to explain the Constitution in 60 second sounds bites to answer every question. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps some day we can live in a country where Rand can run for POTUS and not have to do the same as his father.

    It all starts with Cain its not some “banster” conspiracy to take over the world and enslave us. Jesus Christ they already have the dollar to do all that and its got their symbolism all over it.

    Free Masons were called that because they were free to roam all Europe and build things. Free Masons were instrumental in getting this country started. Jesus Christ your nonsend doesn’t make sense if you follow the logic to its conclusion with a little sense of history command of facts and common sense.

    Its not a conspiracy to take over the world and enslave us if anything its one to take over and unshackle us.

    So please Mechele Bachmann and Alex Jones please stop turning the plan upside down and coming to bass-ackwards conclusions that defy logic, common sense, and decency. These people are providing cover for the real NWO machine the UN of which Obama and his Democrat friends would love for the US to cede power to.

    Herman Cain’s plan actually triggers critical thinking skills in those you debate if you have command of it.

    People keep saying they are sick of the bickering, sick of the lack of critical thinking skills, sick of the lack of common sense in the world. Along comes a man who would be a perfect resprentative of the party of Lincoln and the demagogues are out to destroy him so we can plot along same path toward the cliff at slower or faster pace instead of seeing the potential of Herman Cain.

    DO you people realize there won’t be a need for TARP or bailouts if people start putting their money into savings accounts.

    Working poor won’t be perpetual working poor if they start putting money into savings accounts.

    Michael Moore and the frugal Warren Buffet can spend money stimulating the economy and paying their fair share until they are blue in their patriotic faces.

    Lets end the class warfare and envy politicking and then maybe there;s a chance someday a Ron (Rand?) Paul can be elected and not have to explain the Constitution become President and get us to flat tax or what ever.

    I know I know soaring rhetoric about the potential where have we heard that before.

    Herman Cain real hope for real change, bold change that’s simple and steady but addresses multiple problems at the source. It’s brilliant in its simpleness and knocks down problems like dominoes.

    Yes he will have mandate and will of the people to pass it if everyone gets on board and become Hermanators themselves and tame the lyins just like Cain does.

    My opinion I could be wrong.

    Cain 2012!

    1. tl;dr +STFU^hyperbole

    2. The Troll-Force is strong with this one.

      1. Pussy! Address it. Why is it wrong, illogical what ever.

        Cain 2012!

          1. Not at all, not even slightly.

            I used emphasis because I can in these forums. I love free speech, its a flashing of sign of freedom. 🙂

            So what I am saying is thank you Reason.

            1. Yes, drink!

        1. Pussy! Address me. Why can’t I help with the campaign?

          1. Look for the force Luke, seek and ye shall find.

            God helps those who help themselves.

            You claim to be Muslim doesn’t Allah preach that old adage? I am not Mohamed and I will not show you the way. I do not work for Herman Cain in any capacity other than being some pissant who supports him.

            Now go seek before you get Pwned again asking silly questions of me. :-0

            1. Lay off the Red Bull

              1. This is White Indian incognito.

    3. Neat story

    4. And another thing to ponder.

      Al the shale exploration waiting to be unshackled, repeal of Obamacare, regulations, EPA all of which Cain will do just like any or most of the others.

      Think of this possibility if every body is working and getting along and happy days are here gain as Herman delivers on his promise of morning in America again.

      It might even be possible sometime after living in an environment of healing racial, envy et al and growth. It may be possible to have the perfect solution to gay marriage and other issues when we are not divide by envy and such.

      I’d propose all marriages done outside of Church hetero or homosexual are called Civil Unions in the little check-box and another check-box for married. Who cares what its called its a perfect acceptable secular solution and as long as everybody receives same benefits from their union.

      Barrack Obama has used capitalist technique to sell us a load off goods we don’t need in Edward Bernay’s type fashion, Pepsi type logo and all. He used a willing MSM to market himself as brand Obama.

      Ironically you might say he used the capitalist own rope and is hanging us now. Sound familiar?

      Herman knows how to undo all of this by getting critical thinking skills stimulated.

      Herman is a capitalist not a marxist socialist wannabe like brand Obama and his Obammunism he wants to shackle us with.

      We could ride the Cain Train on Obama’s “intercontinental” railroad and show the world the path to prosperity too after they crash and look to begin anew.

      Yes We CAIN!

      1. “Think of this possibility if every body is working”

        We don’t want to work, asshole.

      2. Why are you ignoring me? I’d like to join the campaign.

      3. Cool story bro

        1. It all starts with a vision then a plan etc….

          You have to make it happen. Cain knows how to make 9-9-9 happen and eliminate the catalyst for 50% or more of the bickering. When we are all getting along better in a booming economy where nobody is a racist for having a different idea then anything is possible. Even Rodney King’s dream.

          When it happens go write a book about it. Call it “From King to King to King the American Dream”

          I’m just saying to ponder what I am writing about in this thread instead of getting distracted by shiny things.

          The perfect candidate can’t get elected in this America. We need a Herman Cain before we’ll ever elect a Ron Paul type.

          My opinion I could be wrong.

      4. I have to say that I want to see the nation’s lawns dotted with “YES WE CAIN”. I think that’s a clever slogan.

    5. And another thing to ponder.

      Al the shale exploration waiting to be unshackled, repeal of Obamacare, regulations, EPA all of which Cain will do just like any or most of the others.

      Think of this possibility if every body is working and getting along and happy days are here gain as Herman delivers on his promise of morning in America again.

      It might even be possible sometime after living in an environment of healing racial, envy et al and growth. It may be possible to have the perfect solution to gay marriage and other issues when we are not divide by envy and such.

      I’d propose all marriages done outside of Church hetero or homosexual are called Civil Unions in the little check-box and another check-box for married. Who cares what its called its a perfect acceptable secular solution and as long as everybody receives same benefits from their union.

      Barrack Obama has used capitalist technique to sell us a load off goods we don’t need in Edward Bernay’s type fashion, Pepsi type logo and all. He used a willing MSM to market himself as brand Obama.

      Ironically you might say he used the capitalist own rope and is hanging us now. Sound familiar?

      Herman knows how to undo all of this by getting critical thinking skills stimulated.

      Herman is a capitalist not a marxist socialist wannabe like brand Obama and his Obammunism he wants to shackle us with.

      We could ride the Cain Train on Obama’s “intercontinental” railroad and show the world the path to prosperity too after they crash and look to begin anew.

      Yes We CAIN!

        1. Hello Jeff, I am not Herman Cain the man just Herman Cain of the “e pluribus unum” variety.

          Herman Cain understands how to shove that Uncle Sigmund Edward Bernays subliminal marketing brand Obama bullshit right down to the Pepsi logo Barrack is using to hang us with. Herman Cain is a BUSINESSMAN who knows how to counter Obama the SOCIALIST because Herman is a CAPITALIST like you all claim to be.
          Sheeeeeeesh!

          Damn straight I am a Hermanator because I have some vision, critical thinking skills and common sense left. Herman has given me the tool to be a Hermanator and destroy the Obamabots talking points. Not only that but stimulate critical thinking just by debating them about 9-9-9. Any time you can stimulate that process that progressives, Dems and liberals try so hard to shut down in their Wall St. drones walking about bizarrely parroting the stupidist most ironic shit. There is hope for them if you can stimulate the critical thinking. There are sheep and sheep herders, there’s hope for the sheep. The herders are dishonest partisans to begin with. Many of the kids are naive and brainwashed by professor who is bizarrely reliving his youth vicariously through those they indoctrinate.

          Wake. The. Fuck. Up!

          Herman Cain is the Man 9-9-9 is the plan.

          *cue music*

          I am America…..

          1. By Allah, I’m an American too! Where do I sign up?

      1. C’mon man, read what I said and admit.

        YOU. CAN’T. MAKE. THIS. SHIT. UP!

        Here’s another thing to ponder.

        If Romney is the nominee we could be header for Gore vs Bush and that outcome would result in riots in the streets. AN opportunity for dear leader to “suspend” the Constitution and play Abe Lincoln on us making claims its the only way to get problems solve like Tom Firedbrain believes.

        The choices couldn’t be clearer. Especially if you’re a conspiracy kook who believes Mason’s are the ones putting them in front of us and ready to fall back on “you get the government you deserve” theory.

        Choose wisely I made the case and the choices couldn’t be more contrasted. This really is THE MOST important election of our lifetimes.

        Remember George Washington was a Mason too and believed free-trade with all and alliances with none. The old when goods are moving across borders armies don’t have to theory.

        Cains plan proves a future path because most importantly it removes a key catalyst pols use to divide and drown out other solutions to other problems.

        Turn off the Alex Jones show Paulies he’s helping the Left’s cause whether he knows it or not.

        Frick, Frack, WTF!

        Jerry Seinfeld style:

        Ever notice that on cable television we went from frick to frack when it comes to fuck?

        Why?

        Frick was a much better word to use for fuck than frack because frick rhymes with dick and prick of which both are used for fucking.

        I don’t think there’s any c’mon sense left in the world so goodbye. I’m on my way to go protest fracking shale because its fricking the environment.

        My case for Herman Cain in a nutshell 🙂

        1. That’s awesome. Where can I sign up to help with the campaign?

          1. Look for the force Luke, seek and ye shall find.

            God helps those who help themselves.

            You claim to be Muslim doesn’t Allah preach that old adage? I am not Mohamed and I will not show you the way. I do not work for Herman Cain in any capacity other than being some pissant who supports him.

            Now go seek before you get Pwned again asking the same silly questions of me over and over. :-0

        2. No, really, I want to help. Where can I sign up?

      2. Oh yeah, and if you don’t support Cain you must be a racist. LMAO!

        I am the Hermanator and so are you if you take command of his solutions.

        e pluribus unum out of many, one.

        The Hermanator sent from the present to protect our future, for the children and grandchildren. Of course! 🙂 But not of the Nancy Pelosi variety. REAL CHANGE!

        The fucking irony and contrast as I have laid out couldn’t be more fucking bizarre yet there it is!

        Piece it together out of the threads and read it, try and deny it. One bizarre fucking election in a year of much predicted doom and gloom of every sort. The end of the world as we know it is the predictions.

        Read every word I wrote and deny it. I dare you, the choice couldn’t be clearer! choose wisely because riding the Cain Train to prosperity could lead to world change as we provide a model on how to get there.

        Herman Cain is to Superman as Obama is to Bizarro! Deal with it and choose wisely. Or choose more of the same ole tinkering around the edges. It’s your choice because our country was founded around a concept God gave us free choice.

        The concept was tested by athiest, diest, various sects of Christians who wanted to be free to worship as they choose.

        Test the concept yourself if you want it might go something like” God DAMMIT! No lightning, yep God allows us freewill whether I believe in him or not. A provable testable concept they all agreed on. A God given right. Hey King fucking George fuck you, God allows us to deny him who the fuck are you to do the same.

        Now if anybody believes that if Obama or progressives had God’s powers and would allow us freewill they must be smoking crack or not paying attention. And if Bible thumper try to beat me over the head I’ll use that same Bible and concept to beat them back.

        The choice couldn’t be any clearer!

        1. There’s got to be something I can do to help Herman win. Any ideas where a hard working Muslim like me could make a contribution to the campaign?

          1. Look for the force Luke, seek and ye shall find.

            God helps those who help themselves.

            You claim to be Muslim doesn’t Allah preach that old adage? I am not Mohamed and I will not show you the way. I do not work for Herman Cain in any capacity other than being some pissant who supports him.

            Now go seek before you get Pwned again asking the same silly questions of me over and over. :-0

          2. Look! Look! A cartoon representation of Mohammed! Don’t just stand there! BEHEAD somebody — !!!

        2. Hey dumshit — You don’t even know how to spell the president’s name.

          1. Look everybody a shiny thing!

            Shouldn’t you be protesting Wall St or something?

            Address the message instead attacking the messenger.

        3. The Hermanator sent from the present to protect our future, for the children and grandchildren. Of course! 🙂 But not of the Nancy Pelosi variety. REAL CHANGE!

          Wait, Herman is Cable? I love that dude!

      3. I’ve been trained with a cane! Maybe I can help in the outreach program.

        Canes for Cain!

        1. Do Democrats know how good you are with a cane? Perhaps you could get a job like Sharpton promoting victim/identity politics and wield that cane to keep the Muslims on the Democrat plantation.

          Al Sharpton gets paid good money by MessNBC to do just that. You could be the Muslim version of Al. Never mind there’s already Farakan. Maybe you’re a different sect?

    6. I am intrigued by your views and want to hear more. Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to?

      1. I do not, I do not work for Cain.
        I am just a pissant who supports him because I see the potential and understand that he has the smarts and experience to make it happen.

        Seek and ye shall find, I’m certain of it.

    7. Speaking of Warren Buffett, it turns out that this disingenuous creep owes the government a billion dollars in back taxes. A billion dollars!

      Instead of pretending that you want to pay more taxes, why don’t you just pay what you already owe, you fucking douchebag.

      1. I would love to be able to tell that frugal fuck to be patriotic and go spend his money stimulating the economy while paying all the taxes he wants to until he’s blue in the face. Michael Moore and John Kerry too.

        Cain can make that come true.

        Who here wouldn’t love to put these fucktards in their place screaming prove it, prove it when Herman Cain passes 9-9-9 with a mandate.

        We need a Herman Cain before we can ever elect a Ron Paul or similar.

    8. Cool story, bro.

    9. “Herman Cain is the man 9-9-9 is the plan.”

      http://mises.org/books/TRTS/

      1. Care to elaborate?

        9-9-9 is the road to serfdom?

        Or Obama or same ole around the edges bullshit fixes is?

        Waiting for the perfect candidate like Ron Paul you’ll be waiting forever.

        Ron Paul can’t get elected in a country that doesn’t understand it’s Constitution. Herman Cain is such a contrast to Obama we can someday soon get back to that country, its a start, a bold start to put us on the path.

        He’s running on 9-9-9 and making his case, if he wins in a blowout it will pass congres.

        Please clarify.

        1. I’d like to help. Please elaborate.

          1. Do what comes naturally. Blow yourself up, in a public place.

            1. Not only that it was Pwned by a Hermanator.

              LMAO!

    10. Hello Jess, I am not Herman Cain the man just Herman Cain of th e pluribus unum variety.

      Herman Cain understands how to shove that Uncle Sigmund Edward Bernays subliminal marketing brand Obama bullshit right down to the Pepsi logo Barrack is using to hang us with, Cain knows how to counter against him because he is a CAPITALIST like you all claim to be.
      Sheeeeeeesh!

      Damn straight I am a Hermanator because I have some vision, critical thinking skills and common sense left. Herman has given me the tool to be a Hermanator and destroy the Obamabots talking points. Not only that but stimulate critical thinking just by debating them about 9-9-9. Any time you can stimulate that process that progressives, Dems and liberals try so hard to shut down in their Wall St. drones walking about bizarrely parroting the stupidist most ironic shit. There is hope for them if you can stimulate the critical thinking. There are sheep and sheep herders, there’s hope for the sheep. The herders are dishonest partisans to begin with. Many of the kids are naive and brainwashed by professor who is bizarrely reliving his youth vicariously through those they indoctrinate.

      Wake. The. Fuck. Up!

      Herman Cain is the Man 9-9-9 is the plan.

      *cue music*

      I am America…..

      1. I’ve got 9 Muslim friends in 9 states with 9 lives. Help me get them involved! What can we do?

        1. I would first ask if them their religion allows them to practice freewill since they are identifying themselves a hyphenated-Americans.

          Ask them if their mullah will allow them to vote for whomever they want.

          Or does Allah have to give the message to the mullah to relay it to them about who to vote for.

          Explain to them the concept about freewill, test it with them. Watch: GODDAMMIT! No lightning. Tell them “See my Creator allows me freewill.”

          Tell them to try it and if Allah doesn’t strike them down explain to them that’s the concept our country is based on that atheist, deist, and various sects of Christians could agree upon. Explain to them there weren’t very many Muslims around at our founding.

          And if they don’t chop your head off tell them to support Herman Cain if they want because its a free country and they are free to vote for whomever they please.

      1. Have you seen Herman Cain tame lyins like a lion tamer whipping and control a lion? I bet Lawrence believes he’s a “lion” of the progressive cause as much Teddy was lyinized by the party. Watch Lawrence on his high and mighty course.

        Watch the whole interview, I’m not sure if the link provides it. I’m sure you can find it if you want.

        Have fun.

        The Hermanator in action. Can you imagine that man debating Obama and the difference between the two philosophies.

        Couldn’t have starker contrast if you scripted it.

        http://tinyurl.com/5tt9s9a

        1. Wait, what if I was the moderator?

          1. What’s that supposed to mean?

            You’d burn the book in a sense And delete the link? I don’t get that.

            Is Herman Cain pain bringing out the little dictator inside you?

            If you’re a moderator and thinking those type of thoughts perhaps you might want to re-examine libertarian credentials.

            You know who else in history would delete links or post?

            1. Realize the potential, Hermanators armed with command of his plan along with critical thinking skills and a dash of common sense carry a BIG FUCKIN HAMMERS to smash progressive BULLSHIT with.

              You fucking purist Paulies. Unreal!

              Herman Cain is laying out a plan modelled the way a business man would map out his idea and then set forth with solutions to get there.

              You top hat and manacle(sic) fucks that don’t have the vision to see you need a Herman Cain before you can get a Ron Paul crack me up.

              The flat taxers who don’t have the vision to see that if we give that man a mandate and it works like he says JOBS! JOBS! JOBS! and it eliminates class warfare, I mean don’t you realize one we’ve rid our politics of envy marxist rabble rousing and people are thinking again that it would be a better environment for convincing people the flat tax could be even better.

              No, you top hat and manacle(sic)fucks will get distracted by shit like the moronic Wall St protestors “shiny things” iif you will.

              For example: Herman Cain is pro-life no exceptions.

              Seriously! That’s what holds you up?

              Or that he made a statement that basically said early Greenspn was better than Bush Greenspan. When Herman’s plan could end the need for bailouts by encouraging people TO SAVE THEIR MONEY.

              Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

              1. Dude, STFU already.

            2. There is no moderator here, dumbass.

              You said:

              The Hermanator in action. Can you imagine that man debating Obama and the difference between the two philosophies.

              I wan’t to moderate that debate.

              I’d like to help with the campaign too. Maybe server in Herman’s cabinet when he gets elected. Any pointers you can give a motivated American Muslim on how to get involved?

              1. Personally I don’t give a fuck if he puts a Muslim in his cabinet or not, religion shouldn’t be a requirement to fill a cabinet position via quotas either.

                Separation works both ways my man.

              2. “On second thought, though: I most likely have some schoolgirls to scourge, or a younger cousin to ‘marry,’ or something that day. Never mind, then.”

                1. Is the sock puppet “Muslim” supposed to be a libertarian?

                  Why is “it” imposing religious test on a man running for President.

                  What part of “but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” does “it” the sock puppet not understand.

                  Perhaps “it” is confusing sharia with our Constitution?

                  Can someone self-identifying by religion impose religious test on candidates?

                  Only the MSM can violate the Constitution hiding behind the 1st because it trumps all others?

                  Isn’t that just more bizarro shit when the MSM can violate the Constitution implementing a religious test on the candidate but the candidate doesn’t have a right to exercise the right the MSM PC-Police are violating him with?

                  Muslims would rather not know Herman’s view? Muslims would rather Cain pull a Romney and just lie to them? The man said straight up hey Muslims here’s what I am going to do. And that’s a bad thing? it’s bad to give information to people and let them decide for themselves?

                  FUCK!

                  You. Can’t. Make. This. SHIT. UP!

    11. Can I help with the campaign in NYC?

      1. Especially in areas near the sacred, beloved, hallowed Ground Zero?.

        Please! And thank you!

        1. Excellent. The next time Herman is in town he can stop by and I’ll give him the grand tour.

          1. Hey look “shiny things” sheeeeesh.

            Herman Cain is pro-life no exceptions too but go ahead and let something that iS NEVER going to change hold you back. Shiny things.

            At best abortion goes back to the states where it belongs. Sheeeeesh!

            Hey look “shiny things”.

          2. “KA-BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM — !!!”

  26. Perhaps some Democrats will join Rep. Pompeo in trying to kill the Economic Development Administration, which is pure corporate welfare.

    Unfortunately, I doubt it. (And there aren’t enough Republicans who would oppose it to make a majority either.)

  27. The problem is that, even if the two movements were to find that consensus in the middle of the Venn diagram above and work towards it, it would still do fuck-all about the problem.

    In the grand scheme of the federal budget, corporate welfare is a fairly pinner line item. You simply can’t pave the way to a sustainable budget picture (the necessary precondition for economic growth and investment) without bringing federal spending somewhere close to sustainable levels. And neither of these movements are really serious about entitlement reform and defense cuts. The OWS crowd may claim to like defense cuts, but would just as soon spend that savings on a universal debt forgiveness or TEH FREEZ KOLLAGE EDUCASHUNZ!!! entitlement while the teapartiers may at times claim to be supportive of entitlement reform, but end up saying don’t touch my medicare and SS (and even those that would permit serious reform would likely want to double down on the bombing brown people budget items).

  28. Does Ron Paul belong to some sort of fake eyebrow subculture? Could it be part of the alliance?

  29. I would like to add one more item to the diagram:

    “Government uses the threat of regulation to extort campaign donations from corporations”.

  30. The only small government we’re going to get is small government for CEOs… if you’re a drug user, immigrant, or otherwise non-CEO, then anyone who gains power will be for big government for you.

    If principled small government types would just put away childish things and focus on the reality of the situation, we could get somewhere.

    1. Shit it’s only Wednesday.

      1. Every day can be Thursday if you clap hard enough.

        1. clap or fap ?

          1. Combine the two.

            1. Your mind is a terrible thing…..that is all.

      2. Don’t mean ya can’t pretend it’s Thursday.

    2. So you’re saying every individual in the country needs to incorporate? Done!

  31. Using this logic, there should be a viable alliance between socially conservatives Latinos (or blacks) and republicans. After all, who helped ban gay marriage and legaization of drugs in California?

    The OWS’ resentment of big gorvernment and corportion isn’t borne out of sound libertarian / conservative ideology. These people are acting on class warfare and envy. I didn’t see any “stop wasting money on green industry” or “beware of the education bubble” signs in the occupation. Banks and wall street, along with the police and the white men, were always part of the “establishment” for them. Meanwhile they’ll insist that the green industry, some nebulous social justice projects, welfare, and college education are all worthy of support from big government.

    It’s sad to see libertarians eager to form alliance with the very uninformed activists who would vote against many of their proposed policies.

    1. What if there was no way to be for anything other than subsidized energy–be it oil & coal or green tech? Because I fail to see a third option that isn’t fantasy land.

      1. Your failure to see anything other than subsidies is your failure, not the market’s.

        1. Do you guys ever sit and wonder what it’s like to address the real world instead of utopian fantasies?

          Fantasizing about perfect worlds is really something only children should do.

          There will never be a free market in energy in this world.

          1. Re: Stoopid In America,

            Do you guys ever sit and wonder what it’s like to address the real world instead of utopian fantasies?

            I wonder how you address utopian fantasies like governments populated by omniscient angels, instead of the truth.

            Fantasizing about perfect worlds is really something only children should do.

            Your tongue is bleeding….

            There will never be a free market in energy in this world.

            The statement above pretty much tells anybody that the sockpuppet has a very narrow understanding of what the market – and the concept of energy – entails.

            By the way, I can buy from several brands of batteries today. I guess electrochemical energy IS managed by a free market after all. Oh, and so are calories… and gravity remains free.

            Idiot.

          2. Ending energy subsidies is Utopian?

            1. All attempts to make the goverment smaller are Utopian. And racist.

      2. You had me at “I fail to see”.

      3. Because I fail to see a third option that isn’t fantasy land.

        You fail to see not subsidizing anything?

        I think you should have stopped after you typed “I fail”

    2. Are motivations as or more important than outcomes? You need coalitions to pass policies in democratic societies, and coalitions should be based on outcomes instead of ideologies. The Tea Party and Norquist’s tax pledge created a coalition between libertarians and conservatives that was successful at bringing positive change despite otherwise gaping policy differences. We should not cut off allies on policies with the same outcomes because we disagree with their motivations.

      For instance, I am a libertarian not out of Rothbardian dedication to a singular and unwavering principle, but primarily because I recognize that libertarian miniarchism will naturally result in a better society and environment for the poor and for small businesses, and accomplish these ends far better than counterproductive statism/welfarism will. I share many values (like equality of opportunity, and decentralization of wealth) with the Left, and believe that voluntary collectivism can function as a replacement for many of the functions of the state. I don’t see this as contradictory to being a laissez-faire libertarian, and I can explain this to the Left quite well. A coalition with shared outcomes is not only a means to enact better policies, but a gateway to reaching a broader audience with a logical, principled message they may not have been fully or accurately exposed to.


      1. recognize that libertarian miniarchism will naturally result in a better society and environment for the poor and for small businesses, and accomplish these ends far better than counterproductive statism/welfarism will.

        I see NO evidence of this being true.

        1. Re: Strawman,

          I see NO evidence of this being true.

          Get The Great One’s ass from your face so you can see better.

        2. And your willful ignorance or lack of education means what to me, exactly?

          I’m an ex-socialist who came to my conclusions by studying economics and seeing real world outcomes of well-intentioned but counterproductive progressive policies. You can’t have real progress by disincentivizing economic mobility and entrepreneurship, devaluing currency and shutting millions of economically disadvantaged people out of the workforce. You can’t create economic stability with constantly shifting, arbitrary and inexplicable market distortions, tax codes and inconsistent enforcements of rights. And you will always have corporatist governments and too big to fail by creating manipulable barriers to entry that encourage conglomeration instead of competition.

      2. Collecting money from everybody to pay for the poor (food, shelter, healthcare) seems just fine.

        1. Re: Strawman,

          Collecting money from everybody to pay for the poor (food, shelter, healthcare) seems just fine.

          That’s what’s tatooed on The Great One’s ass. Get his ass out of your face so you can see things as they really are, S.

  32. Alliance with the OWS folks? If that means peeing into their gauged out eye socket and raping them, then I’m all for it!

  33. Stop being obtuse, you imbeciles.

    The TP is in favor of entitlements for which they paid into it, as in the Medicare and SS they paid into their whole lives and will get less than they were promised. Got it?

    Why are some of you so dense?

    Is it just to be ‘on the outside’? You think being above it all makes you smarter? It doesn’t.

    1. So which part of government do they want to shrink exactly?

      1. They don’t get that cutting discretionary spending to zero would still leave huge budget deficits.

    2. They didn’t ‘pay into’ anything. They paid for the benefits of others. The fact that they, and we, were sold a false bill of goods by our elected representatives/power-whoring oliticians is beside the point. There is NO MONEY to pay for all that crap.

    3. The TP is in favor of entitlements for which they paid into it, as in the Medicare and SS they paid into their whole lives and will get less than they were promised.

      (1) They are delusional. The money they paid in is gone, long gone.

      (2) If they won’t support reforming the biggest pieces of the budget problem, they are part of the problem.

      1. Make Room! Make Room!

        We have the solution. Kill the old bastards and turn them into crackers to feed the poor.

    4. Nope. They were duped into thinking that all that money they paid into SS and Medicare was something other than a tax.

  34. It’s funny– no wait, it’s sad and pathetic.

    But the TP has done more in 2 years to advance the cause of liberty and small govt. than the Libertarian Party and Reason has done since they were created decades ago.

    Really! You guys suck.

    1. The TP has accomplished exactly jack.

      Please, get a microscope out and find for me the actual cuts that they managed to make in the 2012 FY federal budget.

      1. No real cuts, but I think it’s likely the the government is going to spend a tiny percentage less than it would’ve if there hadn’t been any TP candidates elected to the House.

        1. AH! “Savings Created or….Saved…or Something”

          Derp. Fail.

    2. You are very boring, new troll. Try harder.

      1. I foresee a very quick “I’m taking my sign and lawn chair and going home, you meanies!” departure.

          1. DAAAAAAAAAAAAYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

    3. “Really! You guys suck.”

      Great! You’re right. We do suck. Now go annoy someone else.

  35. I don’t see *any* coincidence of purpose.
    The OWS crowd isn’t against crony-capitalism, they’re griping because they’re not the crony getting the dough.

  36. Just for fun imagining how it all went down:

    Van Jones: Okay, ideas anybody.

    Professor #1: I think I could get some of my hippie students and their friends to protest Wall St.

    Professor #2 Great idea, I’m going to text some of my students from my iPhone and tell them they should be protesting evil corporations whose products are made in China and sell stock on Wall St.

    Van Jones: Excellent!

    Andy Stern: I can get some of my people there.

    Trumpka: Me too.

    JournoList: Hold back boys we wouldn’t want it to look like astroturf.

    Debbie Dolberman: Once the MSM sets the narrative about how spontaneous and grassroots the OWS crowd has sprung up we could get Nancy and Barrack to comment on it.

    Nancy: Okay.

    Tumpka: That’s the cue for us to come in Andy.

    Van Jones: Excellent. A very productive meeting on this one. We wouldn’t want another CBS incident. How in the world was reporter from CBS allowed to…..Has anyone admonished that reporter yet?

    Nancy: My husband and I need a distraction

    Al Sharpton: When will tell them it should be about redistributing the money?

    Bill Keller: I’ll start setting the narrative that the Tea Party is finished.

    Charlie Rose: I’ll coincide with that and and call OWS a growing phenomenon.

    JournoList: One all that’s rolling we’ll keep pounding the talking points.

    Harry: I’ll prevent them from voting on the Barrack’s jobs Bill while all this is going on. I’ll need help blaming Republicans.

    JournoList: No problem and no different than business as usual.

    Van Jones: Very productive people. I mean that.

  37. the TP has done more in 2 years to advance the cause of liberty and small govt. than the Libertarian Party and Reason has done since they were created decades ago.

    Show your work.

  38. So, when libertarians say “there is too much government intervention into private industry” they are WRONG.

    There is too much private industry intervention into government.

    1. Re: Strawman,

      There is too much private industry intervention into government.

      What’s the difference?

      1. “You got your peanut butter on my chocolate!”

        “You got your chocolate in my peanut butter!”

    2. Those politicians REALLY didn’t want that money, honest!

  39. You gotta be kidding me, P Brooks. Seriously.

    Look how many TP candidates were elected. Has the TP changed the debate in politics? Very much so. Even MSNBC discuss the TP and its small-govt. goals.

    Reason and the LP were and are still mere blips on the political radar. No one but hardcore political junkies even know the two exist.

    In fact, to show you how laughable the ‘traditional’ libertarian movement in the US is, consider that lefty Bill Maher calls himself a libertarian. And no one calls him on, because no one knows what a libertarian is.

    And you have Reason and the LP to partially thank for libertarian’s lack of political success.

    Or how about this? Has Reason or the LP ever got anyone elected to the House or Senate? No.

    1. I don’t see government shrinking, civil liberties protected, or anything else I care about much happening. The TP has had some electoral success, and I’m glad that they are at least talking some about shrinking government, but talk is cheap.

      1. Co-opt them.

        The Soviets co-opted Christianity in S. America in the fifties surely libertarians can co-opt the TP.

        Hint: Got to the meetings and bring the Constitution with you then start reading it aloud. That’s a good start right there.

        1. Hint #2 Don’t start talking drug legalization right away, lure them in with the state’s rights on abortion talk first.

  40. Kevin Zeese used to be the head of NORML. What a waste.

  41. Very simple test:

    How does the leftist media treat you?

    If they treat non lefties (say Ron Paul, Reason magazine, the LP) without vitriol, then you have little political clout. Very little chance you’ll upset the progressive apple cart. In short: no one in the country pays attention to Ron Paul, the LP or Reason.

    The media hates the TP because it’s popular and it’s getting non political folks interested in non-progressive politics.

    Open your eyes.

  42. So let me get this straight, PL.

    The 2-year old TP which has had some success in advancing libertarianism is to be derided because IT’S NOT ENOUGH!

    But the decades old Reason and LP which have had ZERO success in getting candidates elected are to be supported because…..

    Well, you tell me.

    1. Seen it all before. 1994. Lots of talk, some initial action, then business as usual.

      More power to the TP candidates if they actually accomplish anything. The economic situation should make it relatively easy (politically, I mean) to fix the spending and taxing problems.

      I’m not cynical, but I am skeptical. Also, on top of all of this, I’m not sure the TP is so great on other issues I care about. However, we can ignore that for now if we can get our fiscal house in order and return to some concept of limited government.

    2. For all intents and purposes the Tea Party is mostly a status quo movement.

      They do not want huge cuts to entitlements they do not want huge cuts for defense, they do not want to fundamentally change the relationship the government has with individuals and their liberty.
      All they want is to cut spending to 1999 levels…and using quasi-libertarian rhetoric to do it.

      One should not be surprised that such a moderate political movement has done better then the far more radical libertarian sphere.

      Don’t get me wrong…the TPers want to move the county in my direction….but please do not confuse direction with distance.

      They may be headed north but going from the equator to panama still leaves many miles to go before reaching the North pole.

      1. mostly a status quo movement

        I read that as “statist quo”. Which seems more accurate.

        Also, Holy Cow may be the worst troll ever. Get a fucking job or something. And cut your hair, ya hippy.

        1. Statist quo is great.

  43. Even MSNBC discuss the TP and its small-govt. goals.

    Wow. ED! hyperventilating about the TP counts as substantive progress?

    Has the so-called “Tea Party” actually eliminated any government programs? Have they cut any budgets? All I see (with the exception of Rand Paul) is a lot of whining about how they can’t steer money to their preferred clients at the expense of the preferred clients of the Dems.

    1. Re: P Brooks,

      All I see (with the exception of Rand Paul) is a lot of whining about how they can’t steer money to their preferred clients at the expense of the preferred clients of the Dems.

      I’ve notived that, while not being considered a pure libertarian (even by himself), Rand is showing the same principled mettle as his father.

  44. Hear hear, PL! A voice of rationality…

    All I’m saying is why doesn’t Reason and the LP et al partner with ‘common non political’ folk, like the TP?

    I get the overwhelming sense that Reason and the LP (and many posters here) share the same Leftist disdain for the ‘common man.’

  45. The left are incapable of strongly opposing Obama and the democrats…that means they have to support wall street and car manufacturing bail outs, “Green” subsidies and support ObamaCare which are all prime examples of crony capitalism.

    Libertarians on the other hand are perfectly capable of throwing Bush and the republicans under the bus just as they are able to throw Obama and the democrats under the bus.

    1. That’s all well and good. However, in a practical sense there seems to be no other solution.

      1. No other practical solution?

        You mean no other practical solution then too support Obama?

        ..

        hehe…haha…hahaha…HAHAHAHA..

        BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

  46. Where is the TP on basic freedom issues?

  47. What part about 2-year old TP don’t you get? 2 years against the decades old progressive monolith of academia, media and pop culture.

    Right now the TP is the best hope for less progressivism and more libertarianism.

    Not everyone has the acumen or the time to delve into politics like perhaps yourself, P Brooks, but why deride those who are mostly on your side, albeit flawed in their thinking?

    The common American (who doesn’t care or have the smarts to understand all sorts of inside baseball arguments) needs to be swayed toward Libertarianism.

    Partnering with OWS and similar ilk is not the a.n.s.w.e.r.

    1. Sorry Divine Bovine, but the argument that “people are too dumb to understand the reasons behind liberty, so we gotta force it on ’em” leads not to liberty, but to authoritarianism of a slightly different flavor.

      Real liberty requires both less government and more personal responsibility. You can’t shortcut to Libertopia by doing…whatever you claim the TP has accomplished.

  48. Basic freedoms and the TP? Why ask me? I’m not a TPer, but I’ll defend them since they represent a good shot at advancing economic liberty in the US.

    People who innately understand the destructive nature of government (but who may currently be in favor of drug laws or other things you call anti-freedom) can often very easily morph into solid libertarians. The framework is there.

    There is now Libertarian backbone in OWS.

    Too much of the inside politics types (be they bloggers or pundits or actual academic institutes) skew toward “isn’t government awesome.”

    The LP and Reason are way too in the weeds (no pun intended) and too philosophical for most Americans.

    You want more Libertarians? Partner with the TP. And just suck up the fact that some Americans really do use “fixin'” and “I reckon” copiously in every day speech.

    1. I would just rather not be a libertarian.

  49. I’ll ask the question again.

    Do Libertarians prefer the conservative (TP and other republicans are the same thing) and have to deal with the religious right. Or would you guys prefer a progressive and have to deal with high taxes.

    The answer is always the same: NEITHER.

    And, that’s a great answer when one merely wants to criticize. However, a real solution is going to require a real answer. And as of now, the answer is ONLY BINARY.

    1. Hey, I have an answer, dickshit: Fuck you.

      1. And that’s a typical conservative answer…full of passion, hate, and simply doesn’t answer the question.

        1. Jeez, can lefties do anything right? You crapped on your own punch line, dude. It’s ‘tickle your ass with a feather’ then ‘typical nasty weather’, not ‘typical conservative answer.’

          Fuck! Get your heads out of your asses and come up for air already!

        2. Warty is a typical conservative. PWND.

        3. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

          Decent trolling. I give it a C+.

        4. And that’s a typical conservative answer

          Huh?

          So a left wing nut job has never uttered the words “dickshit: Fuck you.”

          You are an idiot.

          Anyway the answer to your question; ineffective pro-lifers vs effective tax and spenders the choice is pretty clear I would choose the ineffective pro-lifers.

          If the pro-lifers started to become effective then I would reevaluate my support….the same being if the tax and spenders started to loose the tax and spend battles and started winning the legalize pot battles i would throw them a bone then as well.

          By the way that was the point of the fucking article to begin with…ie strategic and focused alliances.

          But you could give a shit about that….you just want justification for claiming that all libertarians are all right wing religious nuts in disguise.

          So i think the “dickshit: fuck you” is a very apt response to your question…

          …and i would further add; please go fuck yourself and die you running dog hack twit.

    2. A strawman with a false choice. Excellent!

      Can I get a True Scotsman with that?

    3. I just want to criticize.

    4. Whichever team you aren’t on.

  50. The stench of stupid is overwhelming in here.

  51. too philosophical for most Americans.

    How is, “What the fuck happened to the Fourth Amendment?” too philosophical?

    Get back to me when one of your Tea Party heroes shows some backbone on the war on drugs.

    Oh, wait- that will never happen, because they are completely in favor of it, just like the mainstream republitards and democrites.

    1. Why do you hate teh children, P Brooks?

    2. So I take it you’ll be on the sidelines until someone creates the P Brooks mass movement, firmly dedicated to all P Brooks positions.

    3. Here’a a scenario for you.

      We elect Herman Cain with a huge mandate to repeal Obamacare, gut EPA that is killing energy production etc… besides implementing 9-9-9 with a huge mandate because he wins in a blowout.

      Now picture this. IT WORKS! It works because Herman Cain is a rare breed -an analytical minded mathematician turned businessman, author, CEO and problem solver with common sense in tact.

      Now imagine Herman Cain’s plan works.
      The yute are “like…wow… capitalism man” and you get to say yeah. It can be better than this even blah blah flattax…blah…blahfair…tax…blah and about your SS. You know if you had private accounts and could invest some of…..blah blah blah.

      You see, you won’t ever get Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, or Rand Paul elected until after you get a Herman Cain elected first. And unique individuals like Herman who happens to be exactly the right man at exactly the right time to SOLVE problems and then we have a better opportunity to solve with your own solutions.

      Stop looking at the shiny shit and start looking more to the possibilities. Read what I said in this thread, edit it whatever, have honest debate with and share it with friends debate it some more.

      Stimulate the mind and lets get this man the mandate to make hope possible with REAL change change by giving this man the huge mandate to get it done.

      And once the rabble rousers are eliminated from the debate because everybody is being treated fairly – we can work on other solutions to treat people fairly on other issues.

      Wake. The. Fuck. Up!

      Herman Cain is to Superman as Barrack Obama is to Bizarro.

      Use your critical thinking skills and think about that one. Let’s get everybody thinking. 😉

      Herman Cain is the man 9-9-9 is the plan.

      Why am I wrong?

  52. Itchy: Lemonade, Scratchy?

  53. It’s not that the 4th Amendment is too philosophical. It’s that most American’s day to day life isn’t mired in political minutiae.

    People think: “Damn, my income taxes are too high.” They don’t think: “Gosh, is there some penumbra of a statute that I can invoke that’ll circumvent the 11th Amendment. Perhaps the SCOTUS decision in Smith v. Hannibal….”

    The point is to reach people who aren’t inside politics and have them vote for more freedom. You have to do it on their terms, not yours.

    Sure, Hugh, I said force. No, wait, I didn’t. Read what I wrote. I’ll paraphrase: convince those who are largely but not totally sympathetic to your views to adopt more of your views. If that’s not the foundation of anti-authoritarianism, then I don’t know what is.

    Nah, fuck that. It’s better to sit on the sidelines and feel all smart and above it all.

    Because what you’re doing is the same as what you’re chastising the TP for– all talk and no action.

    It’s really sad, but way too many commenters here are simply Leftists who understand a little economics.

    1. And then tell their grandchildren some day about when men used to be free and still would if only everybody would have listened to them.

      People!
      Oh well!

  54. Comrades, we must put shiny things in front of the American people. The Americans are starting to take notice of Herman Cain.

    Shiny things comrades, lots of shiny things. We cannot allow that man to remove our biggest asset for rabble rousing and organizing if this man’s plan succeeds. We must have envy and class warfare if we are too succeed caging those wild American capitalist pigs.

    The stakes are high comrades, those wild pigs have been eating the free corn but we have yet to get the gate installed to fence them in. We need four more years of Obama comrades. Get out there and protest Wall ST with the useful idiots, our friends in media need numbers.

    1. Paultards are bad enough (and note I’m distinguishing the cultists who mindlessly intone his slogans, put him on a pedestal and consider anyone critical of him as a pariah from those who just rationally support him and his policies over the other candidates).

      Now we get Caintards. Ech.

      1. That coming from a Georgist? Rabid cultist just don’t like new comers, I guess.

        1. LOL – I’m not a Henry George cultist. He was a nativist jackwad. However, I think he had some good extrapolations of ideas that were already laid out by Adam Smith and Thomas Paine. If I were a “cultist” of anyone it would likely be the latter two, which I’m still not because I don’t look at any person uncritically.

          But the idea that the land value tax is the least destructive and distortionary tax has been agreed on by economists across many different political-economic ideologies. The idea of making this the only tax stems from the idea that it’s the least economically destructive and violates natural rights the least.

      2. Wimp!

        Let’s debate Herman Cain’s vision and plan. You throw a stone and run away.

        How brave of you sir Robin.

        1. Cain’s plan is not the best and not the worst. While it’s good 9-9-9 got people talking about replacing the existing tax structure, Gary Johnson’s FairTax plan is better (being a single tax and more progressive with the rebate), but still not my ideal plan (which would be replace all taxes with a land value tax).

          Nativism, homophobia and Islamophobia are not signs of critical thinking. Corporatism is not the same thing as being pro-free market. Cain’s not the best or the worst of the Republican candidates, but he is bad enough that I could not see myself voting for him at this time.

          1. So you don’t recognize any possibility that Herman Cain’s plan works exactly like he says it will?
            I mean you don’t think it will be easier to bring a flat tax to the table after 4 years 6 years of prosperity and re-educating the yutes about capitalism and free markets and such
            Really? You don’t believe that could happen?

            I’d think you’d be able to get their attention after Herman Cain gets people’s critical thinking skills stimulated to bold new ideas and proves them.

            In other words a Fairtax plan would be much easier to sell after a Cain term or two. Yes/No?
            Personally I bet the man would retire after one term if we get behind him and give him a mandate to solve these problems he says he can. I wouldn’t be surprised one bit to hear Cain say after four years “I did my job and there are jobs jobs jobs just like I said, now get off your ass and go get one I’m going to watch my grandkids grow up because I don’t have to worry about their future anymore.”

            The whole country is always getting distracted by shiny things yet the clock keeps ticking because we always end with more of the same. The abortion one cracks me up. It is never going to change and if it did at best it would go back to states.

            With Cain vs Obama the contrast couldn’t be more clear.

            Never mind that Cain’s plan automatically caps spending at % of GDP by default and a whole host of other problems that addressed and solved directly at the root.

            You’re not ever going to elect a Garry Johnson or Ron Paul until after Herman Cain.

            Do you at least trust Herman Cain to find waste and cut it? You know that being his experience as a businessman and all?

            Johnson can’t win with a mandate like Cain can to bring about that first big step to getting to where you want to go either.

            Tick tock…. http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html

  55. Holy Cow,

    I think you’re confused.

    Are you under the impression that Reason, or the commenters here, are endorsing some sort of alliance with OWS?

    All Lucy is doing here is surveying the writing of a handful of other people, and putting it up so people can comment.

    Reason has been wall-to-wall shitting on OWS for the last three weeks.

    Thread after thread after thread has seen Reason commenters throwing rotten fruit at OWS.

    You seem to be arguing against a phantom Reason in your head that hates the Tea Party and loves OWS, and that is just your own demented fantasy. Read a few fucking threads and get a clue, dude.

  56. Yeah, Fluffy, I read this site every day. And yeah, dude, I do have a clue.

    The instincts of Reason writers and commenters here is to gravitate what is socially hip and cool– aka the Left’s take on US history and pop culture/current events.

    I just heard that OWS will now be morphing more into an anti-war protest.

    So if that happens, let’s just see how much Reason and its commenters shy away from OWS then, shall we?

    It’s not that Reason hates the TP. It’s that it’s largely indifferent to it, when for years you could hear Reason yelling: WHERE OH WHERE ROMEO IS THERE A GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT THAT’S HAS SMALL GOVT AT ITS CORE?

    Well, it’s here. But by the wingtips of Murray Rothbard, the TP isn’t pure enough for me!

    Anyway, I gotta get back to work. Oh, wait, since this work isn’t exactly what I wanna be doing, I guess I’ll just up and quit.

    Because it’s certainly better to be starving to death and remaining pure to your ideals than to make a living only using 50% of your talents. Right?

    1. The Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street are both incoherent populist movements who get some things right. We agree with them where we agree, and disagree where we disagree. I think Reason and its commentariat has been pretty fair to both movements (far more balanced than the rest of the media, criticizing their incoherent/racist/idiotic sides, praising their rational/libertarian aspects and not assuming all people in these decentralized, disorganized groups think the exact same way).

    2. Well, it’s here. But by the wingtips of Murray Rothbard, the TP isn’t pure enough for me!

      That really doesn’t seem to be the issue. The issue is that it’s changed. Years of the media harping on an underlying socially conservative agenda has caused those assholes to gravitate toward it (and don’t think for a minute that this result wasn’t intentional). They bills put foward by many elected as TeaParty should be proof of this. MSM (including Fox) made this exactly what they wanted it to be. The message has been lost.

    3. The instincts of Reason writers and commenters here is to gravitate what is socially hip and cool

      I think you need to make the distinction between an instinct vs ability.

      Sure reason writers and commenters are all want to be fanboys and fangirls…

      But i think you are far to optimistic about our ability to actually identify what is cool let alone to move in that direction even if we stumble upon it.

      You are looking at the biggest bunch of nerdy socially retarded losers on the planet here…

      Us falling in with what is actually cool or even what could remotely be perceived as cool is exactly zero.

      For proof I give you our poster boy: Warty.

      Case closed.

  57. Winston Churchill, a staunch anti-Communist, allied himself with Joseph Stalin. So anything’s possible.

    1. Yeah, I should have used that one instead. More appropriate too. I suppose calling Obama the devil would have got me fired too, even if I didn’t say it.

  58. I gave up on the thread about half-way through after reading the same points made over and over again.

    One thing I didn’t see (sorry if it showed up past mid-thread) was primary conceptual difference that if bridged allows these groups to share both goal and solutions.

    The distinction has to do with the difference between “government” as a system of rules, and “government agents” that write and enforce those rules. Both groups are upset, it seems, with the corporate corruption of the agents that results in a distortion of the rules. The libertarian approach (not really the TP, but they are standing in for it here) is to limit the amount of power the agents have by having rules that say they have no power to do things. The leftist approach (here the OWS folks stand in for that) is to have rules which limit the behavior of those with the money so that they can’t corrupt the agents. In the end, they are both looking for a revision of the rules to limit corporate influence on the process. But because one (the OWS) folks talk about “government” (as in the written rules) as a way to limit corporate influence and the other (the TP) folks talk about talk about limiting government power (meaning the power of the agents), they talk past each other.

    If it came down to writing actual rules that would limit corporate involvement, some of those rules would limit the power given to government agents, and some would limit the behavior of corporations towards those government agents. This means that you would take some powers and resources away from government, while giving them other powers and resources. It would restructure the system through the rules. It seems from all the rhetoric I read from both groups that some re-writing of the rules is what they want. Some restructuring of the system. If they can get to the point where the talk the same language, they might be able to cooperate (and get moderates on board, btw).

    1. If they can get to the point where the talk the same language, they might be able to cooperate (and get moderates on board, btw).

      How can you get on board with people who admit that the government has been taken over by corporations, and then propose to give them more power to fix it? It’s a simple calculation.

      A=government
      B=corporations
      C=power

      If A=B, then how the fuck is A+C not equal to B+C?

      Oh wait, I know this one. We’ll give the power to the same “experts” currently in charge and expect them to act completely opposite of how they acted every day of their careers. Is that the plan? If it is, I can see why they’re reluctant to voice it or have pictures taken of those stupid enough to think it’ll work.

      1. A=government
        B=corporations
        C=power

        If A=B, then how the fuck is A+C not equal to B+C?

        You are demonstrating my point. Government does not = the agents, per se, it equals the rules and processes. Since our system has a mechanism for the people to influence the rules, they have power to disrupt the influence of B on A. Not completely, not perfectly, but non-trivially. When you look at proposals from BOTH sides, they are about changing the RULES, not who implements them. That is the language that can potentially get the two sides together.

        1. Not completely, not perfectly, but non-trivially. When you look at proposals from BOTH sides,they are about changing the RULES, not who implements them.

          You’re fundamentally missing the point. The solution isn’t to change the rules of the game, it’s to end the game. We’ve been putting rule patches on fiat currency since it’s inception, and this is where it got us. More of the same isn’t gonna cut it. And therein lies the rub.

          These people, with very few exceptions, aren’t willing to sacrifice the power government wields with fiat currency. They just want to redirect it. But there are players already in the game, with far more power, intelligence an influence than they will ever wield. You cannot jump into a game and win when the other players can change the rules at will.

          Most of them will never accept this. That is why they will ultimately be tools for the regime instead of reformers. Allying with them is pointless.

    2. The leftist approach (here the OWS folks stand in for that) is to have rules which limit the behavior of those with the money so that they can’t corrupt the agents.

      And the leftisist are full retards because any blind idiot can see in 2013 we will have a Republican administration and a Republican controlled house and probably Republican controlled senate.

      The fucking twits are essentially demanding that the Republicans have more powers over the economy and more ability to choose who succeeds and who fails in the market.

      The irony of course is that it is the Tony’s of the world who call libertarians, who understand this fundamental flaw with handing over power to the government, corporate Republican stooges.

      Also if you are talking about solutions the 99rs need to come to us. Not because of pride or because libertarians deserve recognition…it is simple political arithmetic. First Obama and the Democrats are huge fucking corporate cronies. The record is clear there is no denying it. You vote for them you lose…and lose big time.

      Second as I mentioned above it is the Republicans who are going to get the power. Unless you are a fucking moron you have to concede that the less power government has then the less power the Republicans have.

      A libertarian slanted solution is the only one you can get…everything else is darkness for you.

    3. Re: Neu Mejican,

      The leftist approach (here the OWS folks stand in for that) is to have rules which limit the behavior of those with the money so that they can’t corrupt the agents.

      Ah… Who’s being naive, Kate?

      So what do YOU believe, Neu?

  59. As I watched the Republican Primary Debate last night, I was pleased that Karen Tumulty, national political correspondent for the Washington Post, questioned the candidates about the relative health of Main Street and Wall Street in the midst of recession. I have to admit, I was a little surprised by the unanimity of denial regarding the culpability of Wall Street. Continue reading ?http://outlierideas.com/2011/10/12/occupy-wall-street-common-ground-and-revelations/

  60. This should be said again.

    Here’a a scenario for you.

    We elect Herman Cain with a huge mandate to repeal Obamacare, gut EPA that is killing energy production etc… besides implementing 9-9-9 with a huge mandate because he wins in a blowout.

    Now picture this. IT WORKS! It works because Herman Cain is a rare breed -an analytical minded mathematician turned businessman, author, CEO and problem solver with common sense in tact and ability to articulate his message to people because he was a radio host and has great command of his vision.

    Now imagine Herman Cain’s plan works.
    The yute are “like…wow… capitalism man” and you get to say yeah. It can be better than this even blah blah flat-tax…blah…blah fair-tax…blah and about your SS.
    Did you know if you had private accounts for SS and could invest some of…..blah blah blah….you would even learn more about how markets work….blah blah….

    You see, you won’t ever get Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, or Rand Paul elected until after you get a Herman Cain elected first. And unique individuals like Herman who happens to be exactly the right man at exactly the right time to SOLVE problems. And then and only then we have a better opportunity to solve other problems with your solutions and debate it with a rational thinking American public.

    Stop looking at the shiny shit and start looking more to the possibilities. Read what I said throughout this thread, edit it whatever, have honest debate with and share it with friends debate it some more.

    Stimulate the mind and lets get this man the mandate to make hope possible with REAL change change by giving this man the huge mandate to get it done.

    And once the rabble rousers are eliminated from the debate because everybody is being treated fairly – we can work on other solutions to treat people fairly on other issues.

    Wake. The. Fuck. Up!

    Herman Cain is to Superman as Barrack Obama is to Bizarro.

    Use your critical thinking skills and think about that one. Let’s get everybody thinking. 😉

    Herman Cain is the man 9-9-9 is the plan.

    Why am I wrong?

    1. Herman has the mo and that’s why FOX News is trying to brain wash us Romney is inevitable, Romney is inevitable.

      Yeah right! We’ll get more of the same tweaking around the edges that gave us spending cuts in the form of future baseline cuts.

      No way I want Romney anywhere near O-Care abusing power that might corrupt him into thinking he can just tweak Obamacare and make it a success(just ask him) like Romneycare. Romney has already proven he can say anything to get elected.

    2. Because I already pay a 10% state/city sales tax, and he wants to double it. Worst idea at the worst possible time.

      1. Business owners and employees no payroll taxes on your gross. Please! Clearly offsets your point and you decide how much tax you pay by how much you spend.

        Second hand goods are not taxed. Does not hurt actually hurt but helps poor. Labor cost cheaper always good for consumer or China wouldn’t be stealing our jobs.

        Encourages savings, perpetual working poor are exactly that because they don’t save. See immigrants who come here with nothing for proof that working hard not buy shit you don’t need and savings leads to success. And people born here can’t? WTF!

        When people are putting money into savings banks don’t need TARP or Bernanke to bail them out.

        Wake up! 9-9-9 is unstoppable and actually helps deprogram people from talking point by using them against and stimulating critical thinking instead of parroting.

        9-9-9 kills the catalyst for marxist rabble rousers because we all treted equally, business too. No loopholes.

        I can understand why tax lawyers, democrats and lobbyist don’t want 9-9-9 but I’ll ever understand why a fiscal libertarian wouldn’t see the potential here to teach when Cain’s bold plan gets a mandate, passes and kickstarts this economy.

        The sleepwalking kids will be like “wow man! Capitalism! Yeah bay bay! Tell me more”.

        And that’s when a Paulie can step and help get Rand lected or what ever.

        Hey kid did you know we can do better with a _____-tax, if we allowed you to invest your SS…..you’d learn more about freemarkets and how they work.

        Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh! WTFU! and realize Cain has a bold plabn like that other guy “we win they lose”. Yes, it’s that simple and brilliant. No more rabble rousing, everyone skin in the game and pols are never read NEVER going to raise taxes on a purchasing public of which many don’t even vote. I know one way to get them to though. Try raising their taxes in an environment can easily point out why that’s going to cost them.

        Herman Cain is the man 9-9-9 is the plan and its unstoppable if we all take command, become Hermanators and go plow through the Obamabots. Sci-fi real life.

        The contrast could be more clear between the two men and the potential if you have a little vision.

  61. That video with Adam Kokesh at the Occupy DC protest creeped me out.

    I don’t think there’s really any reason to bother trying to ally anymore.

    What the fuck is that finger wiggling shit ? They all sit in a circle and repeat everything the speaker says, while sticking their hands in the air and wiggling their fingers to show support?

    No really. What the fuck is that shit? This movement is going to last about as long as it takes for the average sane person to recognize a fucking cult. This has no appeal outside the progressive fringe. The only reason the unions are there is because their just that desperate. It does not merit the media attention it is getting.

  62. All of these things are converging at once. But, America will likely still miss the boat. I hope not, but I have to prepare my brain for the pain.

    Ron Paul is the man. He is not for sale.

    1. Herman Cain first, stop looking at shiny shit. Ron Paul cannot win in a country he has to explain the Constitution for every answer within 60 seconds.

      We need to end, take away the catalyst for rabble rousers ie class warfare. These things typically don’t end well if history is any indicator and we keep heading for the cliff.

      Cain first and after he stimulates the minds of our yutes many libertarians et al can step in and teach them Perhaps just perhaps after four years of a booming economy those yutes want to learn more about capitalism and the Constitution and free markets then a Ron Paul can win.

      And maybe after living in an environment where fairness is the modus operandi we solve other problems with inequality perceived or real and have an adult discussion where libertarians would flourish.

      Go ahead and get distracted by the shiny shit and lets pass up the potential of a man who has a bold plan “we win they lose” and a path to get there. We all become Hermanators and plow down Obamabot’s talking points. Fun shit!

      The establishment is trying to knock Cain out early while laughing at Ron Paul.

      People!
      What ever!

      1. The best part, the fucking best part of it. NO bullshit think about it.

        The frugal Warren Buffet gets to stimulate the economy and pay taxes until he’s blue in the face. Michael Moore can create a documentary and go around the country and spend money paying taxes and stimulating job growth. Moore can call it “Warren Buffet and Me”.

        We could have or “Warren Buffet and Me” marathons on TV every time the budget deficit looks like its going to fall short where Babs can appeal to her fellow limousine liberals to stimulate the economy to make up the budget deficit.

        Who among us? Seriously? Who doesn’t want this and how can you deny every thing I said in this thread and all that potential with a clear laid out path to a prosperous and freer future contrasted to Obama’s failed policies f the past.

        The contrast couldn’t be any starker!

        Hey look shiny shit….Herman Cain supported TARP nevermind that it’ll never be necessary again.

        Hey look shiny….Herman Cain supports abortion no exceptions. Never mind that’ll it’ll…..oh just never mind!

        People!

      2. IMO, Ron Paul should recognize this and step back and say: I supported another man in the past who had a vision a simple bold plan “we in they lose” and a path on how to get there. I am now asking my supporters to pull their full support behind this man because the potential is real if we can get Americans pumped and give this man a mandate, an undeniable mandate. I can then pass my torch to Rand and in four years when Herman retires because he did what he said he would, and when Herman retires to spend time with his grandchildren because he’s no longer worried about their future maybe Rand can win in a country that is eager to learn more about the thinks we care about as Paulies and libertarians.

        Case closed. I challenge Ron Paul to do the right thing and throw his weight behind the Hermanator so we all can take command of 9-9-9 and push that city to the top of the hill.

        RP, just like Greg whats-his-name says on his FOX show Red Eye. If you don’t agree with me then you are worse than Hitler.

  63. never, never, never. will the true tea party join forces with occupy. they are fundamentally polar opposites. the tea party stands for individual freedom, opportunity and responsibility. occupy stands for what, collective handouts from those who have to those who have less, by means of mob rule, regulation and mandate. never, never, never shall the two be one. God Save America

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