Remembering 9/11: Thank Allah for Vulgar Culture!
Throughout this week, we'll be posting old and new Reason material related to the 9/11 attacks.
To see a snapshot of what Reason.com (then called Reason Online) looked like in December 2001, go here.
In our March 2002 issue, Charles Paul Freund wrote a defense of "vulgarity" and explored how "commercial culture liberates Islam -- and the West."
Who will ever forget the strangeness of the first images out of post-Taliban Afghanistan, when the streets ran with beards? As one city after another was abandoned by Taliban soldiers, crowds of happy men lined up to get their first legal shave in years, and barbers enjoyed the busiest days of their lives.
Only a few months earlier, in January 2001, dozens of barbers in the capital city of Kabul had been rounded up by the Taliban's hair-and-beard cops (the Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice) because they had been cutting men's hair in a style known locally as the "Titanic."…
Afghan women, of course, removed their burqas, if they chose to, and put on makeup again. But some Afghan women had been breaking the morals laws throughout the period of Taliban bleakness; according to a memorable CNN documentary titled Beneath the Veil, they did so at the risk of flogging or even amputation. Courageous women had not only been educating their daughters in secret, but had also been visiting illegal underground cosmetic parlors for the simple pleasure of self-ornamentation and the assertion of self-fashioned identity that lies behind it. (See "Free Hand," page 82.)
Still other Afghans filled the air with music. The most frequently played tapes, according to press reports, featured the songs of the late Ahmed Zaher, a 1970s celebrity in the Western style….
In short, the first breath of cultural freedom that Afghans had enjoyed since 1995 was suffused with the stuff of commercially generated popular culture. The people seemed delighted to be able to look like they wanted to, listen to what they wanted to, watch what they wanted to, and generally enjoy themselves again. Who could complain about Afghans' filling their lives with pleasure after being coerced for years to adhere to a harshly enforced ascetic code?
The West's liberal, anti-materialist critics, that's who.
Freund's piece is not simply a stylistic tour de force (though it is that, in spades) but the sort of synthesis rarely witnessed in magazine journalism. He tours the globe and history, weaving a story of Stalin-era dissenters who dressed up as ersatz Zoot Suiters, underground Cambodian karaoke activists, and Kazakh Lord of the Rings enthusiasists to explain how popular culture undermines repression in ways that confound equally power-mad tyrants and sneering Western high-brows. Pop-cult's power, he writes, is that it provides "the opportunity to create and revise one's identity" an activity which is "by its nature an anti-authoritarian enterprise." Read the whole thing.
In our August-September 2011 issue, Shikha Dalmia updates and expands Freund's insights in relation to Bollywood, the massively popular movie industry of the planet's second-most-populous country, India. Bollywood's presence and influence is especially strong in Islamic countries, writes Dalmia:
India's flamboyant, campy, kitschy film industry is rooted in heritages, values, aesthetics, and geographies shared with much of the Muslim world. The Middle East is Bollywood's third largest overseas market. Many Bollywood movies now hold their premiers in Dubai. Dubai Infinity Holdings, a media company, is even erecting a Universal Studio–like Bollywood theme park that is expected to be a major draw for regional tourists—although its completion, originally scheduled for next year, has been delayed two years by the global financial crisis.
Like the huddled masses behind the Iron Curtain, disaffected youth throughout the unfree Muslim world see in Bollywood a glimpse of the pleasures, colors, and riches available in a world with more liberty. Among the first businesses to open after the Taliban fell in Afghanistan were movie theaters showing Bollywood films. Even at the height of the Taliban's repression, shopkeepers kept a secret stash of undestroyed film star posters that they would barter for food and goods, just as Soviet youths would trade Beatles bootlegs pressed on discarded X-ray film.
The Muslim country most in the grip of Bollywood mania is Pakistan, India's cultural twin in every respect but religion. The more aggressively that Pakistani authorities have tried to purge it from their soil, the more Bollywood's popularity has grown. During the country's four-decade-long ban on Indian movies, Pakistanis watched them via satellite dishes and smuggled VHS tapes. When the ban was finally lifted in 2008, the Bollywood scene in Pakistan exploded. Not only have Bollywood movies been playing to packed houses, but Indian movie stars are treated like demigods, despite Islam's taboo against idol worship. The latest fad among Pakistan's urban nouveau riche is Bollywood theme weddings in which the bride and groom dress in outfits worn by a particular movie's stars and hold their wedding reception in elaborate tents constructed to resemble movie sets….
Dalmia memorably contrasts the "hard power" of the U.S. military with the "soft power" of Bollywood when it comes to destabilizing regimes and conditions that harbor or create Islamist death-cults:
According to a 2009 Medium Gallup poll, Pakistan (along with Serbia) harbored the world's most negative views about America. The U.S. presence on Pakistani soil is a standing reproach, a daily blasphemy for Pakistanis.
But even as Pakistan's resistance to America's drones and raids has grown, its resistance to Bollywood's soft power has crumbled. The extremists who find sympathetic audiences when directing fire and brimstone toward the Great Satan are powerless to prevent Pakistanis from consuming Bollywood blasphemies. The hard power of the U.S. military has got nothing on the soft power of [sexy film character] Sheila [as portrayed by the Muslim actress Katrina Kaif].
Another piece in the August-September 2011 issue looks at the growth of anti-Muslim rhetoric and actions undertaken by conservatives who supposedly revere the First Amendment's promises of freedom of assembly, religion, and speech. Cathy Young uses the "Ground Zero Mosque" controversy to talk about how characters such as Newt Gingrich, Pamela Geller, and Laura Ingraham are becoming more hostile to Muslim Americans as time goes on.
For several years after 9/11, anti-Muslim rhetoric remained fairly rare. This can be credited in no small part to then-President George W. Bush, who repeatedly stressed that we were not at war with Muslims, that Islam was a peaceful religion hijacked by violent extremists. The idea that Islam itself was evil and that virtually all Muslims were potential enemies flourished mostly on "anti-jihadist" blogs, and some conservative pundits such as Michelle Malkin occasionally peddled Muslims-under-the-bed paranoia. But these remained the exceptions….
It is not difficult to see why a large Islamic structure near a place where fanatics claiming to fight for Islam murdered nearly 3,000 people would stir emotions.
But there is also no question that the anti-mosque campaign was rife with vitriol toward all of Islam. Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, and other pundits equated the project with a Ku Klux Klan memorial at Gettysburg, a Japanese cultural center at Pearl Harbor, or a Nazi sign next to the Holocaust Museum, each analogy equating mainstream Muslims with murderous aggressors. Rallies against Park 51 featured signs declaring that "Islam Kills" and "Islam Is Terrorism," occasionally spelling Islam with a double s scripted like the Nazi SS logo….
Young records an increasingly sweeping generalizations about the "truth" of Islam as a religion of hate and terror:
Last December, a Jewish reader on the website of Middle East Forum Director Daniel Pipes pointed out that much-reviled proposals to allow Muslims to voluntarily settle domestic relations cases and financial disputes in Shariah courts are analogous to existing Jewish religious courts or within-community conflict resolutions among Mormons or the Amish. Pipes responded: "Jews and Amish do not try to take over the United States; Islamists do." Thus, all Muslims who ask for modest and standard accommodations for their religious values are equated with "Islamists" who seek to take over America, and any concessions to such requests are seen as "the camel's nose under the tent"—the first step to public floggings, stonings, and beheadings….
With Muslims accounting for nearly a quarter of the world's population, the modernization of Islam is one of the 21st century's most urgent priorities. But the obstacles to reform come not only from militant Islamism but from Islamophobia as well. The Islamophobes, after all, repeat everything the Islamists tell Muslims: that the West is implacably hostile to them and their faith, that the most extreme and violent form of Islam is also its truest form, and that a liberalized Islam is impossible. American Muslims, and America, deserve better.
Read "Fear of a Muslim Planet" here.
To read previous entries in Remembering 9/11 and related stories, go here.
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I want a nasty little Jewish Princess
With long phony nails and a hairdo that rinses
A horny little Jewish Princess
With a garlic aroma that could level Tacoma
Lonely inside
Well, she can swallow my pride
I want a hairy little Jewish Princess
With a brand new nose, who knows where it goes
I want a steamy little Jewish Princess
With over-worked gums, who squeaks when she cums
I don't want no troll
I just want a Yemenite hole
I want a darling little Jewish Princess
Who don't know shit about cooking and is arrogant looking
A vicious little Jewish Princess
To specifically happen with a ðåå-pee that's snapin'
All up inside I just want a princess to ride
Awright, back to the fop... everybody twist!
I want a funky little Jewish Princess
A grinder; a bumper, with a pre-moistened dumper
A brazen little Jewish Princess
With titanic tits, and sand-blasted zits
She can even be poor
So long as she does it with four on the floor (Vapor-lock)
I want a dainty little Jewish Princess
With a couple of sisters who can raise a few blisters
A fragile little Jewish Princess
With Roumanian thighs, who weasels 'n' lies
For two or three nights
Won't someone send me a princess who bites
Oh Zappa.
tl;dr
I refuse to wallow in 9/11 anything. It's been a decade - stop with the obsessing, it's unbecoming and weak.
Aye
Thank you. I don't understand why people get so upset when I tell them to move on. I was as upset as anyone when it happened, but if you obsess on the past you miss the rest of life.
You know what would have been the greatest, most appropriate response to 9/11? The abolition of the majority of government entities and functions, restoration of constitutional and frugal government, and the construction of a statue depicting bin Laden being raped by a squirrel with a strap-on. Show them we're the land of the free, and the home of the brave, and that they could all eat shit and die.
Instead, we got Statism and Societal Suicide 2.0. Terrific.
Yep. Rule #1 when dealing with bullies: Refuse to let them get to you. Boy did we fuck that up.
Will you be posting any stories pointing out the real story behind what happened?
just stop. In a country where the contents of a two-person meeting on some arcane legislative proposal cannot remain secret, do you actually believe that a conspiracy of this magnitude is possible? Give me a break. People know what Obama's going to say two days before his speech.
Will you be posting any stories pointing out the real story behind what happened?
Elvis had passionate vaginal intercourse with a hot Micronesian chick and disappeared to jam on an island somewhere. He's still alive and going strong. Just ask the REAL scholars!
I just saw Elvis pumping ethanol into a pink Tata Pixel in Rio last week.
I hear he lost weight, too. Life just keeps getting better and better for good ol' Elvis! Hey, Freedom Fried, tell us more about those Jews you saw the other day mind-bending Wall Street bankers!
This is the theory that best fits the known facts.
That was actually pretty convincing, but I think you should look more into reintroducing people to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. After all, dude, how can you live with yourself knowing that Jews are plotting to subvert the world's financial systems? The Protocols will ensure we'll all prepared.
And while you're at it, check for a neurotransmitter in the back of your neck. Active Tasers work best, I hear.
It's all laid out here.
Since that now returns a 401 error (not found), I have to agree: there is no "theory" found out there that fits better than the simple one that a group of Muslim extremists flew airplanes into the twin towers. Any other "theory" fails Occam's razor.
try this
You can try here. http://www.rense.com/general64/moss.htm
There is no denting the depleted-uranium-level density of a conspiracy theorist's retarded convictions.
you're the sheeple following what the gubmint tells you is true
No, we're the ones following what the evidence tells us is true. That the government happened to get that interpretation right just tells us how boneheaded you'd have to be to get it wrong.
No, you idiots, Elvis was in a nursing home in West Texas after changing places with an impersonator years ago and died fighting a mummy that wears a cowboy hat. Don't you schmucks know anything?
You're obviously just an under-educated anarchist granny-hating type that don't understand nothing. Ever heard of CLONING? It's in the Torah!
You're a towel!
Oh, I've heard of cloning. You know who else heard of cloning?
Jango Fett?
i saw elvis drinking a pina colada at trader vick's . his hair was perfect.
Vic Bergeron would be interested to know that his name has a "k" in it.
Dumbass.
wow. a spelling flame from an admitted paranoid bigot.
i'm so ashamed!
JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111
More appeasing garbage from you Rhoemites. Neville Chamberlain's watch need no longer guard its shade.
Islamophobia is a term made up by your terrorist friends at the Muslim Brotherhood to smear truth tellers about Arab terrorists and Islam.
Just because Ekaterina Jung would like sharia law so it would give her an excuse to put a burkha over her doesn't mean that other women are so ugly that they would desire a veil, too.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here."
Just because Ekaterina Jung would like sharia law so it would give her an excuse to put a burkha over her doesn't mean that other women are so ugly that they would desire a veil, too.
And a meeskite foss like you should talk?
Underschmuck, something tells me you probably aren't a person who should be casting aspersions on other people's looks. I imagine you probably resemble Henry Waxman.
Underdong is Hans Moleman?
Hans Moleman is Jewish?
Underzog is Jewish?
I thought he was a Rastafarian.
You've never seen the video of underzog playing the piano?
It's out there somewhere. I've seen it.
Here's his YouTube Channel.
He kinda looks like Corky from Life Goes On all grown up. He plays the piano with retard strength.
THE HORROR
I think he's the only troll that looks worse than I imagined.
He took down the video where he randomly punches the keys screaming "RHOEMITE" in the key of "Jingle Bells" at the poor beaten music machine.
Remember that its not his fault if he can't play. His piano is an anti-Semite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yFrqca-jUY
If you think the fundamentalist christians are bad and their creationism and marriage-defining silliness should be mocked and stamped out, then forget terrorists, mainstream Islam is a scourge that should be viewed far more negatively.
Otherwise you're a hypocrite.
I agree that believing in pandering to Islam on a civilizational scale because otherwise ALIENATION OMG is a completely ridiculous position to take.
Thankfully I don't live in a Muslim-majority society, so I don't feel the need to point out how stupid their beliefs are on a constant basis (indeed, in most Muslim-majority societies, I wouldn't be allowed to).
Unfortunately I do live in a society where my neighbors believe the earth is 6,000 years old, and dinosaurs all ate leaves and lived in peace with early man. Thankfully, I am free to mock the shit out of them.
The cultural practices of people whom I (practically) never encounter from the other side of the earth don't really concern me as much as the cultural practices of the sea in which I swim.
You just hate Christians, Jim! If you actually hated all religions like the evil atheist you say you are, you'd spend exactly the same amount of time on each even though you almost exclusively tend to encounter just one: Christianity! See, religious conservatives hate the fairness doctrine, but want it applied when you slag on religion without realizing the irony of that demand!
and of course making fun of people's beliefs doesn't mean you hate them.
god knows matt and trey have ragged on mormons, but have said they are generally good people and neighbors. their beliefs are just wacky as fuck
DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB...
one thing about the mormons i know that annoys me.
they think that god cares if they (god forbid) drink a beer.
but...
several of them are grossly obese and absolutely destroy their body with metric assloads of crappy food.
if the body IS a temple of god's design (not to mention the whole gluttony deadly sin thang), then clearly destroying it with food has to be just as bad as destroying it with alcohol or drugs.
it just seems INTERNALLY inconsistent. vs. just wacky as fuck.
Which is precisely my opinion of the vast majority of Christians I've encountered. I wouldn't pull any punches with a Muslim; I might admit that I despise my nations actions in whatever shitty country they came from, but if the subject of creationism or something came up, I'd tell them point-blank that I think they're full of it.
I just don't really run into Muslims very often, and I'm not close friends with any (the touchy subjects generally don't come up in casual interactions with the Muslim cashier at Target).
I am very close friends with a number of Christians (including several young-earthers), and I fear their influence in America more than the influence of a 0.5% Muslim population. Therefore, they get most of my ever-so-witty wrath.
Most of my conservative critics will find a silver lining when the World Caliphate takes over the US sometime next year (due entirely to the defense budget being cut by half a percent): I will shift my mocking to the new majority, and probably get stoned to death. So I've got that going for me.
i look at it this way. christians have had massive influence already in our country, and IN GENERAL, we are much better off, much freer etc (and its not just our constitution) than europe, etc. where a substantially smaller %age of people are religious, let alone christian.
the other thing is that you CAN mock christians with impunity, but dare do it to muslims and you get ... well... the kind of shit we saw with south park DARING to try to depict mohammed, or practically every newspaper being afraid to publish those famous cartoons, or...
christians ACCEPT mockery, and by accept i mean don't get violent over it - in general.
remember what happened to the "draw mohammed day" woman? the FBI recommended she go into hiding.
All of that is true (though I'd argue about the "Christian" influence on our freedoms, because the constitution wasn't written in the 80s, and 300 years ago, Europe was pretty goddamn religious, as well.
Again, doesn't change the point that
1) I very rarely encounter Muslims (to the tune of maybe once a week, I walk by/see one in a store).
And 2) I don't think they have any great influence or bearing on American society (i.e. there's not nearly enough of them to make any kind of "ZOMG SHARIA LAW!!!" argument real or anything other than a smear campaign).
So, no great need to bust them up. If anyone asks, I think it's as stupid as any other religion. But if free to just riff on whoever, the Christians are a much closer and more relevant topic in Plano, Texas.
the point is that everybody makes fun of christians and nobody cares. it's about as edgy as a limp noodle.
that's not true of making fun of muslims.
I have no idea where you're hanging out, but I've had my fill of talking heads on Fox talking about the "War on Christmas" and how Christians are all victims in our horrible secular society (Coulter, Malkin, etc.), whereas Islam is nothing but a hideous Death-Cult.
Besides, that's a point which is completely unrelated to mine. I didn't get on here and say, "Making fun of Muslims is bad, but making fun of Christians is O.K.!" If I had said that, then your statements would be an intelligent response to such a post.
But I didn't. All you did was prove one of the points I was making...there there's always someone who will have a knee-jerk reaction listing all the ways Christianity is superior to Islam anytime anyone says anything negative about Christianity. Slamming Christianity is not an endorsement of Islam. That's partisan TEAM thinking at it's finest.
I don't care which religion is "better" because I think they're all stupid as fuck. I'm not going to attach endless caveats to everything I say, like, "I think some Christians are dumb for believing in young-earth creationism"*
*Christianity is in every way superior to Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Shinto, Buddhism, Cargo Cults, Indonesian cannibals, Wicca, (and on and on and on forever)
Unfortunately attaching that footnote seems to be the only way to keep people from immediately popping off with "But Christians are better and it's not fair that Muslims don't get made fun of as much!!!"
way to create a wall of text while missing the point. people self censor out of fear of muslim retaliation. i say fight back against bullies.
the situation is completely disanalogous. nobody in their right mind fears making fun of christians (or buddhists or...)
I don't know about spending "exactly the same amount of time" criticizing each. How about starting by not accusing people that oppose Islam of being "vitriolic" and hostile" towards Muslims and approvingly quoting others calling them a bunch of racists and Islamophobes for criticizing Islam?
Why do you oppose those weak things the christians want to do if not because of the same "camel's nose under the test" argument?
Is the US ready for 'Little Mosque on the Prairie'?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/pro.....543066.stm
Is there no debate open thread?
You just started one.
Appearantly not... Let start one here.
MSNBC? Yuck.
Robot Mitt Romney was programmed to start enterprises and then run for gov... president.
Mitt Romeny: not everything I do works
I stripped my strippers down. They were more valuable that way.
You've created a lot of jobs Perry, but not the right kind... Barf.
UPDATE Countries
SET Status = China + 1
WHERE Nation = 'USA'
Perry seems so smug...
The rest of you candidates can go home.
The internet just broke from mocking Mitt Romney's internet joke.
Rick Santorum: Friend of the Congressional Democrat.
THE TAX CODE TAKES A HIT.
$9.99 tax code + free delivery
China is a currency manipulator...
Barf.
Want to see a strong core? Get Jeff Flake to take his shirt off. I'm sure it won't take much encouragement.
(tl;dr)
Huntsman: our country needs to do more situps.
Damn you! First and better.
Huntsman: Work the core.
just do some heavy squats, deadlifts, and cleans.
that works the core. core specific exercises have become a bit too much of a fad. mostly from people who don't really understand the purpose of the core muscles or how they work
Fragility of the free market system. Puke.
Jesus, somebody actually said that? I'm still at work, but that's retardulous.
That was Huntsman, but I think he was saying that regulation screws up the free market, not that the free market is bad.
Bachmann's got that crazy look in her eye...
Michelle Bachmann is distracting me from her crazy eyes with her 5ft. radius hair
Holy shit, did Bachmann ride to the debate on the back of a Harley?
Ron Paul, you want to follow the Constitution. Why are you so insane?
Question to Ron Paul... ROADZ!!!!
We can't let drug companies regulate themselves, they'll kill us all.
Excellent response to that question.
Too bad RP didn't say that.
I think they edited out the Ron Paul applause. How did they do that?
I see what you did there.
What can I say, Brian Williams, Rick Perry offered me a Tiffany's tennis bracelet to hock his book.
Is there going to be a tug-of-war over Reagan's corpse tonight?
SELECTIVE EDITING FROM MSNBC AGAIN!
Maybe Romney said Obama was being a dick.
Oooo, sexy nurse shout out
Perry's wife is anything but sexy.
I got confused and wished it was Huntsman.
*quickly googling*
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures.....n+Huntsman
Ugh, it looks like a bunch of cylons that helicopter around earth picking up ethnically ambiguous foodstuffs.
Can perry nullify laws with an executive order?
Not according to Bachmann. It's going to take a real leader...
When the laws are empty shells like Obamacare, yes. HHS is already granting waivers for various parts of the law.
HuntsmanCare!
Shorter Huntsman: Let me explain how the government plans out every ounce of how the free market flourishes.
Were they testing the turbines on that plane they're debating under? I can't get past Bachmann's hair.
Maybe Bachman actually has a helmet with hair on it a la Bret from FotC.
Newt doesn't understand the purpose of a debate.
Wasn't he also constantly bitching in the last debate?
Yeah, and he got kudos in some circles. It was really the only thing that distinguished him that night. So expect more of it.
I'm no fan of Newt, but that was a terrible question. What's the point of asking him whether he likes Perry or Romney more.
They're the only important ones in this popularity contest.
The question was poorly worded, but legitimate.
The questioner might be a fan of SF's slash fic.
He's not going to let them get away with conducting a debate.
Or loyalty oaths!
People lie .. so we'll ask them more!
Ahmad Zahir is great.
Rick Santorum is Catholic?
Is the pope?
Does a Rick Santorum shit in the woods?
I thought he was evangelical...
Herman Caine knows that some call tort reform pay laws. Herman Caine likes to make up words. For example, Herman Caine calls basketball "hoop shooty".
Operation Ignore Ron Paul in full effect
Who? Move along.
Mr. Santorum, why do republicans hate poor people?
Ooo, Perry will not name the other candidates. He's read politicking manuals.
Strategery!
Ah, Perry attacks Paul ("the last individual") without naming him, so as to avoid giving him time to respond.
Rick Perry is 50% swagger, 50% asleep. It's an astounding combination. He goes from jutting his jaw out and thumbing his nose to not even remembering the name of the last person who spoke and what they said.
I see no one here will stop the President = King transformation.
Ouch for Ron Paul.
Energy security!
Drink!
"The energy is too high, we need to make it low."
-- Hugo Bachmann
FTW!
Romney is going to have one busy first day with all these day one initiatives. Good thing he won't be drinking at the parties.
Drink!...oh wait.
But it will take a while for the White House to custom order the sheets with the holes in them.
I'm wondering how the wizard Bachmann knows what the right price of gas should be...
"Congressman Paul, what does this rash look like to you?"
Ron Paul, what other crazy things do you support getting rid of, you old crazy guy?
Marcia, Marcia, Marcia...
Was Marx right?
http://blogs.hbr.org/haque/201.....right.html
What a retard. Talks about stagnant wages without the corresponding rise in PPP.
Obviously capitalism has gone to shit, and I'm going to text that to all my friends!
Paul bringing up perry's support of Hillarycare, nice.
Paul is so damn wordy.
That line about junk silver was awesome, but he waited too long to deliver it and should have just talked over the moderator like everyone else does rather than begging to finish the sentence. Also, most people will have no idea what he's talking about as junk silver is fairly obscure.
Ron Paul, reminding everyone he's old.
Paul: I was for the ideas of Lincoln, but the 80s just weren't that great.
Ron Paul puts a plug in for junk silver!
Notice that he's the only one being asked philosophical questions
Who stuck Reagan's grave under Ron Paul's desk and hid his depends before he came out on stage?
Nice try perry, you disingenuous SOB...
Meh, that was actually a pretty fair shot, and on the face of it it is true. I don't blame Perry for taking advantage of the Reagan worship atmosphere.
Did everyone else get that anti-immigration commercial just now? Olbermann just turned over in his grave.
I did.
Barf...
Yeah. I mean, I don't agree with the whole "them damn illegals" thing, but living in New Mexico, I understand it (awesome moment- someone pokes his car out of a lot when you are driving right down cuz he clearly doesn't see you, you confront him and his 2 buddies in the parking lot, you let him go without exchanging info not to get the shit beat out of you, and see him squealing off. True story) but legal immigration? Hey, Californians, squat down in a grapefruit field for a while and talk to me.
Now that we went to commercial, let me take the tai me to say...
Apparently we need govt. control of H&R to get a fucking legit thread for a debate going.
Mr. Gorbachev, give us a debate thread!
Reason's debate coverage is an example of market failure.
In the sense that they failed to do exactly what I wanted when I wanted them to without me paying them anything.
You know - in the Tony sense.
Actually, they failed to do what they said they'd do...
Did they promise to do something for us?
Oh, well, in that case they definitely owe us our money back?
I guess they would if you were a reason contributor...
...but I'm not bitter...
Tpaw didn't last long poor guy won't ever get to make this handle topical. That said, I applaud the ever rabble-rousing efforts of Paul. He is more and more fun to watch each debate and for my time the only reason to give a fuck.
He's delivering while everyone else (bachman hair wtf?) is just primping.
Ronald Reagan is at this debate tonight? What, Brian?
Is this some kind of comment on Ronald Reagan's stance on intellectual property? Playing the song that made The Verve the most famous but never made them a cent because they had to give it all to the Rolling Stones?
there's conspiracies everywhere, I just say no.
I thought it was some lawyer that owned that song. The stones said ok but they didn't have the rights.
Oh, oops. Can I unburn my Rolling Stones records?
You better not be burning or ripping Rolling Stones albums.
We don't have much time in this debate so let's stop and show a film about Reagan.
anyone else wana puke during their little "legacy of Ronald Reagan" segment where they played "bittersweet symphony"
By Verve? How 'bout if I just puke anyway?
Santorum hasn't aged a bit.
Wow, what a great drug warrior Nancy Reagan was.
Here's a Reagan tribute...
Now, back to our debate. Okay, assholes, measure up.
If Perry isn't prepared to answer this question about Social Security, he's pathetic.
Who would have thought they would call him on it.
I think he's doing a pretty good job of it.
It's extremely stupid to wage a frontal assault on Social Security during a campaign. If you want to dismantle it do it quietly and slowly and not say it out loud while you're doing that.
Karl Rove [spit] said earlier today...
Like anyone here is going to lose points dissing Rove or Cheney.
Well if Rove and Cheney say it it must be true.
Who is Governor Time? I'll vote for him or her over the rest of these schlubs.
does saying "ponzi scheme" make you unelectable? Be more provocative you pussies.
Romeny: disagreeing without giving details since 1998
Shout out to Chile!
Amen to Cain for bringing up the 'Chilean model'.
I think the comment about Social Security being a Ponzi scheme was totally outrageous. No one was ever forced into a Ponzi scheme at gunpoint.
+1
Did Cain just endorse a Pinochet program? Not that it's a bad program, but dems will have a field day with that.
They already attack Hayek and Friedman for seizing him on economics.
Should be advising.
Ron Paul is tonight's designated Perry hunter.
HAHAHAHAH Paul is calling out Perry on HPV thing
Come on Paul, spit it out...
It only took 20 seconds for him to say he thought the vaccine order was a good idea.
... was NOT a good idea.
T^T^Today Ronny...
Anyone else put their hands over their eyes and peer through their fingers when Ron Paul speaks muttering over and over "just get through this answer without sounding senile or insane"?
*raises hand reluctantly*
I feel the same way. I love the guy but he not very good with debates.
No, because I laugh. Paul needs to slow down, take a deep breath, then speak.
You know what's funny? The number of NBC commentators tweeting about Perry's "ponzy scheme" (sic) comment.
Exactly. As someone here (sorry, I forget who) pointed out, Ponzi scheme victims can stop putting money down their particular toilet.
Perry: it for your own good, donchaknow...
Rick Santorum looks like he's perpetually ready to scream "I feel like i'm taking crazy pills!" like Mugatu.
Wonder why they can't ask Ron Paul about any one of the several books he's written...
I liked the one he wrote about MLK being a gay pedophile and black kids being fleet-footed.
Honestly, Tulpa, do you just get off on being an asshole? You're worse than MNG half the time
Rick Santorum is outraged.
Ouch, football reference. That's a shot at Obama's speech tomorrow, right?
Was there actually an opt-out in that mandatory HPV vaccination order? Kind of defeats the purpose of being "mandatory".
I think Romney is going to cry talking about how he loves America.
So, Gawker just defended Social Security and its long term growth rate by linking to a study admitting that after 2037, it can only pay 75%. The stupid is strong.
...and we love you Mit.
Everytime they cut to Gingrich I'm like "wait, why are you still here?"
Is Newt's wife able to withstand 3 newcular titties events in one morning?
What department is Newt going to throw together to handle that fourth nuke?
The mods are just incredulous that Paul wants to deregulate and cut spending.
Without FEMA, who is going to hand out checks?
I find it odd that there's an expectation that a stage filled with Republicans is supposed to defend a Government Agency created by Jimmy Carter to the death.
I mean whether you like FEMA or not, shouldn't Republicans be _expected_ to not have much use for it? I mean are the Democrats supposed to defend the White House Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships?
Aren't some clear lines between the two parties a good thing, regardless of which side you fall on?
You disagree with the CASH DISBURSEMENT ADMINISTRATION for TELEGENIC VICTIMS of MAJOR ACCIDENTS? What kind of Monster are you? I bet you don't even like American sports!!!
you mean sports like hand-egg and diamond-cricket?
CATS AND DOGS, LIVING TOGETHER!!!!!!!
Ron Paul does not support the troops' right to stay cool.
I mean obviously that's not what he was trying to say, but you know he's going to be misinterpreted.
A bookmark to Pitchfork.com on every computer in every tent!
Oh fuck. RP just said to force the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan to live without A/C.
The Taliban seems to do fine without it
He said pull the AC and bring the troops home.
Actually he said if we get rid of the AC then the troops will come home.
I guess if it gets too hot there they'll just desert?
Herman Cain is a hoarder.
Ron Paul just suggested taking air conditioning away from the military in Afghanistan.
Brilliant. This whole "debate" has been an hour-long clusterfuck of ridiculousness.
Anybody getting tickets for Obama's second inaugural address?
WRONG! Hour and a half-long.
It's only been going on for about an hour. I know they have another 30 or so minutes to say dumb shit.
And Newcular Titties just suggested a Pell Grant for K-12.
All power to the DoE!
Jon Huntsman had nodded off, and as punishment he will see to it that the rest of us do as well.
Doesn't Huntsman's statism make you feel good all over?
Maybe it's best if Rick Perry never actually says other races out loud. It might not be his fault, but it just sounds more racist when he does.
Let's all agree to elect Texas president.
Every question directed at Paul seems to be: "But without [insert government agency] who will regulate?!?
And every question directed at Perry seems to be some variation of: Why does Texas suck so much?
Stupid early starting debate.
Ha! Bold talk earlier about being here snarking the hell out of this debate.
I see that the narrative of Perry vs Romney is alive and well.
College diploma = high school diploma.
Pell grants for kindergarteners!
Gingrich is just a font of ideas.
Immigration... Here we go...
Obama just got aroused, Perry wants more predator drones.
Holy crap, the fence
...and the magical line for good measure...
Romney's plan to control immigration? Turn off our economic magnet. More.
Yeah, just get rid of all the jobs and no one will come here anymore!
Yeah, just get rid of all the jobs and no one will come here anymore!
Let me be clear, I'm working on it as fast as I can.
So first of all we need a fence, but it doesn't matter as long as we have magnents.
Gingrich said Reagan: drink!
"Turn off the jobs magnet"
Actually, Obama has done an awesome job turning off the jobs magnet.
Ronald Reagan wrote in his diary that he thinks Newt Gingrich likes him more than just a friend.
Wow, Newt is actually scoring points with the audience on immigration.
What about Apurrican History?
Gingrich is relatively reasonable on immigration. He at least realizes we can't send all the brown skins back.
English language! British immigrants will hit the ground running.
Damn brown people! Learn English!
Santorum's the son of an Italian immigrant? Where have I heard that before?
Dukakiss my ass.
If Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered by Italian immigrants...
Okay, Bachmann, slowly... slowly... let's make a connection to the War on Drugs, come on honey, you can do it.
The Godfather?
I was actually thinking the last debate, but the Godfather works as well...
I hear he makes good pizza.
Santorum: teh law is teh law.
Fait accompli???? That's not English. GET HIM, NEWT!
+1
Bachmann, come on, answer the question!
According to Bachmann Cubans = Mexicans.
Diseased immigrants, go be diseased elsewhere.
Haha, Cain's innovative solution: let's solve all of the problems!
Uh, yeah, Cubans don't want Mexicans to get subsidies.
I guess in Bachmann's world, everyone who's swarthy and says "habla" is on the same team.
Huntsman just makes me want to puke. He's my new least favorite now that Pawlenty is gone.
There we go! Paul is, of course, able to make the connection to the WoD.
Although, even as a hardcore libertarian, I'm a bit concerned about his saying the wall could be used to keep us in. It's a bit tinfoil hat-ish.
He should have focused more on that, IMO.
It would have been better than talking about that stupid fence.
Yay Paul gets to talk. His bet answer yet, but still tries to fit too much in to his time slot. It's like a Speedracer episode.
Really? He just conjectured that the border fence will become another Berlin wall, right after condemning "real ideas".
I think that was Real IDs
Yeah, but it sounded like "ideas".
He was talking drug war when I posted. He covers so much in one slot.
There's too many people at these. They need to do this like Big Brother: start throwing people out after every debate based on poll numbers. You can still run for president if you want, you just can't be at the debates anymore. Maybe have Julie Chen moderate.
Oh God Ron, shut up with the paranoia.
That's what she said.
Lightning round. Jesus. Could there be a stupider idea for a serious political discussion?
Bumper sticker response... GO!
Trying to have a serious political discussion on MSNBC?
Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the CommunistTea Party?
Romney spewed an almost identical answer last time.
That's because he's a robot.
Bachmann said Reagan: drink!
She's criticizing Reagan (indirectly)
Perry wants to go on a snipe hunt!
Bachman with the Reagan Bomb!
Who is this guy with the yellow tie?
I've got the debate streaming in another tab of my browser. Huntsman and Romney sound exactly the same.
Good point. Huntsman tends to taper off the volume toward the end of his sentences though, so once you recognize that it's easy to tell them apart.
You're all missing Tommy Friedman on Piers Morgan.
Nation-building at home? He's channeling Thomas Friedman!!!
Romney: Obama was selected, no elected.
Worst. Lightning round. Ever.
Turtle lightning round?
It got people on Needles and Pins (sorry, my uncle played in a band that opened for them).
Did they just put a red filter on Perry or is he the devil?
Is Rick Perry literally choking on his praise of Obama?
Give propes to the seals!
Gitmo!
That was just philosophical, it doesn't actually apply to the real world.
US Military; maintaining global order since 1946!
Seriously, everything in the world was hunky dory thanks to Team America before Obama ruined it.
Nuclear Iran would be a prize?
Huh? What exactly has Obama done differently from Bush??
I was wondering the same thing...
Take a look where we ARE, Ms. Bachmann. Grammar nazi appreciates your compliance.
Radical Islam!
Drink!
Santorum said Reagan: drink! Damn already out of drinky.
RedEye on DVR is mucn more enjoyable than this yawner with Team Red. I'm voting for myself for President next year. You all have fun.
Can someone tell me why Santorum is even on this stage? I mean, wtf?
He wants to stop the abortions, keep the gays from getting married and chase out the brown skinned people.
Diversity. Ethnic (he's the son of Italian immigrants, dontchaknow?) and sexual (frothy, frothy Santorum)
No kidding. Every time I see him I want to chuck a beer at the TV.
They keep hoping he'll explain his "urban dictionary" nickname.
Santorum has no idea what isolationism is. Shocker.
Santorum has no idea about a lot of things.
Notice that they don't talk over him when he's out of time, like they do with Paul.
Please Santorum, you're getting me wasted.
Rick Santorum wants to make the world safe for democracy.
Santorum's a POS. Non-intervention =/= isolationist.
Also the UN didn't order the US to intervene in Libya.
Come on Tulpa, don't let little facts get in the way of American greatness through military strength.
Yeah really. We all know it was his secret Muslim masters.
MSNBC wants Huntsman to hate on the GOP on their behalf!
Mitt looks Pissed!
It's hard for him to replicate our human emotions.
Whatever, Huntsman, like winning Utah is difficult for a Republican.
Yeah, Utah is just full of independents and Democrats. (Huntsman talking about how he won them over in governor's elections)
Haha, Perry, if you read this blog, you'd know the science IS settled.
Perry with the awkward pauses...he needs training to umm and ahh like Barack does.
How has Texas dissed environmentalism? How hasn't it?
Bachmann just plugged Obama's speech.
I don't particularily like Rick Perry but I don't get where the left got off saying he's "stupider than Bush." He's been doing a pretty good job of giving concise, intelligent sounding answers.
Low expectations can only benefit him.
How is Newt still in these debates?
No one invites him; he just shows up and no one has the heartburn turn him away.
he gets like 7% in the polls. That's better than half the candidates there.
Mitt Romney: Buy war bonds!
ASK RON PAUL ABOUT BERNANKE! PLEASE!
Whoa whoa, Romney, that's heresy! The entire goal of the government is to prevent saving any money.
Hooray! Capital Punishment!
OK, that was some inappropriate applause...and I say that as a supporter of cap pun.
Yeah, really odd thing to applaud.
YIKES. Please don't clap for executions.
Kinda creepy...
Perry reminding us why he is a piece of shit.
Applause for executions!
Williams might as well have said Willingham's name.
Rick Perry gets automatic applause for executing more people than any other governor in history.
W. T. F.
Applause for executions?
Yes Brian Williams, you must face ultimate justice!
The Ultimate Justice would be a good name for a kickass action movie.
"A fair hearing, an appellate process..."
Wilmington
Oops Willingham.
His 999 plan? Sounds like a delivery pizza deal.
Here we go again. "The government KEEPS PEOPLE ALIVE, why do you want people to die?!"
I don't want ALL of them to die, I need the orphan children to work in my monocle factory.
Ron Paul: Yeah, sure, fuck it, go ahead and give them some food, I guess.
TWO lahge two-topping pizzahs and a two-litah sodah for $9.99!
They won't ask RP about Ben Bernanke, but they will ask him why he hates the starving children.
To summarize, Ron Paul wants you blown up by terrorists, poisoned by drugs, and to starve your children.
Oh, and hooray for LBJ, that epitome of compassion.
Why can't they ask Paul a policy question instead of what gov programs he would cut?
Ron Paul got the last word! Woo!
Is that a cardboard cutout of Nancy?
Haha, Paul gets teh last question.
"Some of 'em were even guilty!!"
Shit. Meant as a response to "Rick Perry gets automatic applause for executing more people than any other governor in history.".
Ron Paul, no, don't ruin our monocle-wearing reputation of callousness.
Hi, I'm Rachel Maddow, here to tell you why you should HATE everyone you just saw on your TV for the last two hours.
I'm already there, Rachel.
I'm already there, Rachel.
Had to change it as soon as she and Matthews came on. I cannot abide their spin.
I don't feel like turning the channel back to MSNBC, but Maddow and Matthews are doing the post debate commentary? Seriously?
Who is that handsome anchor helming the post-debate festivities on MSNBC?
I don't know, but I like the cut of his suit.
a young man named Rachel.
Jesus Christ the only question they ask Ron during the last half hour, despite him polling as #3, is whether he believes in lunch at school
Yep. Total bullshit, but that's MSNBC for ya.
...and the rest of the major media FTM...
Can't go letting the people hear his ideas.
Good show everyone.
Wow, I think I even got more time in tonight's debate that Ron.
There was this political speech in the summer of 1974. I was working on a project at the time and decided to listen to the radio as Nixon resigned.
It took all of a couple of minutes to realize it was a speech directed at carefully evading any blame he had in the fiasco. The "off" switch provided an alternative to throwing the radio out the shop door.
And you folks spent X time in 2011 watching and listening to politicos invent answers to questions they weren't asked?
The government is a trailing indicator; I'll go back over to the 'how much danger are terrorists?' thread.
It's either that or reruns of Two and a Half Men.
Though Romney, Perry, and Maddow are roughly the same thing.
i lol'd. nice
THOSE are the alternatives? Naah.
And of course the media narrative is a self-fulfilling prophecy:
NY Times:"Perry and Romney Trade Strong Blows at Debate"
Washington Post:"Rick Perry, Mitt Romney square off in Republican presidential debate"
CBS:"Mitt Romney, Rick Perry spar early at GOP debate"
Bull. Fucking. Shit.
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I guess in Bachmann's world, everyone who's swarthy and says "habla" is on the same team.
Dog bites man
Awesome