Stimulus to Nowhere
The failure of Obama's economic agenda
Mired in excruciating negotiations over the budget and the debt ceiling, President Barack Obama might reflect that things didn't have to turn out this way. The impasse grows mainly out of one major decision he made early on: pushing through a giant stimulus.
When he took office in January 2009, this was his first priority. The following month, Obama signed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, with a price tag eventually put at $862 billion.
It was, he said at the time, the most sweeping economic recovery package in our history," and would "create or save three and a half million jobs over the next two years."
The president was right about the first claim. As a share of gross domestic output, it was the largest fiscal stimulus program ever tried in this country. But the second claim doesn't stand up so well. Today, total nonfarm employment is down by more than a million jobs.
What Obama didn't foresee is that his program would spark a populist backlash and give rise to the tea party. Where would Michele Bachmann be if the stimulus had never been enacted—or if it had been a brilliant success?
To say it has not been is to understate the obvious. The administration says the results look meager because the economy was weaker than anyone realized. Maybe so, but fiscal policy is a clumsy and uncertain tool for stimulating growth, which the past two years have not vindicated.
The package had three main components: tax cuts, aid to state governments, and spending on infrastructure projects. Tax cuts would induce consumers to buy stuff. State aid would prop up spending by keeping government workers employed. Infrastructure outlay would generate hiring to build roads, bridges, and other public works.
That was the alluring theory, which vaporized on contact with reality. The evidence amassed so far by economists indicates that the stimulus has come up empty in every possible way.
Consider the tax cuts. Wage-earners saw their take-home pay rise as the IRS reduced withholding. But as with past rebates and one-time tax cuts, consumers proved reluctant to perform their assigned role.
Claudia Sahm of the Federal Reserve Board and Joel Slemrod and Matthew Shapiro of the University of Michigan found that only 13 percent of households indicated they would spend most of the windfall. The rest said they preferred to put it in the bank or pay off debts—neither of which boosts the sale of goods and services.
This puny yield was even worse than that of the 2008 tax rebate devised by President George W. Bush. Neither attempt, the study reported, "was very effective in stimulating spending in the near term."
The idea behind channeling money to state governments is that it would reduce the paring of government payrolls, thus preserving the spending power of public employees. But the plan went awry, according to a paper by Dartmouth College economists James Feyrer and Bruce Sacerdote published by the National Bureau of Economic Research.
"Transfers to the states to support education and law enforcement appear to have little effect," they concluded. Most likely, they said, states used the money to avoid raising taxes or borrowing money.
That's right: The federal government took out loans that it will have to cover with future tax increases … so states don't have to. It's like paying your Visa bill with your MasterCard.
The public works component could have been called public non-works. It sounds easy for Washington to pay contractors to embark on "shovel-ready projects" that needed only money to get started. The administration somehow forgot that even when the need is urgent, the government moves at the speed of a glacier.
John Cogan and John Taylor, affiliated with Stanford University and the Hoover Institution, reported earlier this year that out of that $862 billion, a microscopic $4 billion has been used to finance infrastructure. Even Obama has been chagrined.
"There's no such thing as shovel-ready projects," he complained last year.
Even if jobs were somehow created or saved by this ambitious effort, they came at a prohibitive price. Feyrer and Sacerdote say the costs may have been as high as $400,000 per job.
Based on all this evidence, we don't really know whether the federal government can use fiscal policy to engineer a recovery. We do know it can go broke trying.
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The administration says the results look meager because the economy was weaker than anyone realized.
*Sigh* We've got a president justifying trillions of dollars of waste with non-falsifiable statements, and folks wonder why more people don't study science.
I'd settle for schools replacing English with simple rhetoric/logical reasoning classes.
You realize that English class is where they teach people to read, right?
This is why people who hate government shouldn't be in charge of government.
Well, if ya' wanna be a fuckhead and split hairs; here in the States ENGLISH classes is shorthand for ENGLISH LITERATURE which is where a student is supposed to get his/her head crammed full of IDEAS while you learn how to read in your READING class (or PHONICS depending on which part of the USA you live in)! You should have spent less time sleeping in said English classes!
This is totally fucking wrong dude.
Most people learn how to read in elementary school, dude. That's before there's such a thing as "English Class". Maybe you didn't learn to read until high school, but don't put your problems on the rest of us, dude.
That's also totally fucking wrong. You don't stop learning to read in elementary school, (unless you have a 6th grade reading level), and plenty of states have "English" as the only descriptor from K to 12.
http://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss.....tstnds.pdf
"California English Language-Arts standards grades K through 12"
The worst part is that it's completely untrue. I, a random, anonymous Internet poster, have been saying the economy has deeper underlying problems and saying the stimulus wouldn't help (separate issues), so of course there are more well known people saying this.
It also shows that the administration, among others, think he economy is some strange, anomalous beast. It's not; it's merely the aggregate of all economic decisions everyone makes all the time.
I don't think the president or democrats believed that the stimulus would help the economy.
Rather, they thought we were in the latter stages of a typical recession in 09, that would cure itself. The "stimulus" was nothing but a pork fest made politically possible by the recession.
^^^This
And we'll see how much of that money ends up back in Obamas 2012 campaign. I wouldn't bank on him losing with the war chest he'll have. Something has to make up for losing the domestic/foreign public donations.
" I wouldn't bank on him losing with the war chest he'll have."
Yes, this country will get what it deserves....good and hard!
"It's not; it's merely the aggregate of all economic decisions everyone makes all the time."
This is true, which makes it totally impossible to predict or control. That is why the government should stay the fuck out.
Obama going to an economic summit is like a chicken watching a card trick!
The only stimulus the Punk in Chief really cares about is growing dependency on, and fear of, the government.
Whether by direct socialism or overregulated fascism, he wants to create a protection racket that allows him to arbitrarily shake down companies for higher taxes and force them to accept unionization.
His latest trick is to try and force the Republicans to shut down the government, so he can supposedly benefit like Clinton did after the '95 shutdown. We should call his bluff and enact an orderly slowdown by more balanced de-funding.
Like a mafia kingpin, he and the statists are parasites that force higher costs of doing business, encourage graft and cronyism and consolidation of competitive industries into zombie cartels that are too-big-to-fail and too-corrupt-to-excel.
Like malarial mosquitoes, statists can never be killed off, but they need to be neutralized by protective resistance.
The culture war must continue...libertarian people need to shun statists not just at the ballot box, but also socially and economically: we should not hire or at least not promote them, and we should move away from the cities and states they control if possible.
This is already happening, but it needs to keep happening until they are starved and forced to do real work.
Good call wulfy. Good call. Obama knows the game well. He knows that if the government loses control of the general population ,,,,it is over. Hell they can't even keep control of a bunch of asshole bankers. Good call on neutralizing the statists economically. After all we live in a world where money is power.
And I thought money was free speech. Thanks for the clarification.
DEMOCRAT!
Democrat....the last three letters spell RAT.The last three words in Republican is CAN...like in Can Do...
nuff said!
"The administration says the results look meager because the economy was weaker than anyone realized."
It wasn't weaker than I realized....and it's still fucked up.
Has economic stimulus ever worked or is it just Keynesian theory? Two examples I can think of are the Great Depression and Japan and both were epic fails.
They always point to World War II. But when you look at World War II, the boom didn't come until after the war. If it was the government spending that caused it, the boom should have happened during war.
Of course there were a few other things going on during the war than just spending. The two most important things were the complete suspension of the production of consumer products and the massive public savings that occurred due to people buying war bonds. Think about it. You had four years where no one could buy anything new. Not only could people not buy stuff, but also there was tremendous social pressure to save in the form of buying war bonds. Is it any surprise that when they lifted the rationing rules and started producing consumer goods again that all that pent up demand and savings produced a boom? Actually it was a surprise to the Keynesians who wanted to keep war time planning in place and figured there would be another depression once the soldiers came home from the war. Thank God, the public would have none of it.
not to mention that most of the world's factories were bombed out of recognition...
And that the U.S. came out of the war with a large surplus of manufacturing capacity both in terms of capital and skilled labor.
And a huge amount of pent up demand. The rest of the world was flat broke. So we didn't sell much overseas in the late 1940s. The post war boom was internal.
Pent up demand, indeed. You try living on rations for a few years.
"But when you look at World War II, the boom didn't come until after the war."
Is that true?
Fiscal Year GDP (in billions of dollars)
1940 96.8
1941 114.1
1942 144.3
1943 180.3
1944 209.2
1945 221.4
1946 222.6
1947 233.2
1948 256.6
1949 271.3
1950 273.1
Of course most of the wealth created in the 1940-43 was sent to Europe to be blown up. Do you honestly think we could just keep producing military equipment forever? All the Keynesians figured the depression would return when the spending stopped. They were wrong.
Wait, wait, don't change the goalposts. I thought you said the boom didn't happen until after the war? Looks like a steady increase throughout to me.
This is one of those areas where video games can be quite instructive, actually. Play any strategy game (my favorite is Advance Wars) where you produce a massive amount of resources all in order to blow it up. If you actually manage to win the game, look at what you have left versus the resources you consumed. Now ask yourself what you can do with all those fancy tanks and planes besides blow up more stuff.
How rich are you now, really?
Civ IV is a somewhat better example of this. You build huge armies that do nothing but suck up maintenance costs.
GDP is not prosperity. We could draft every single American into making bombs for a living and our GDP would skyrocket, but we would all starve to death.
What economic indicator would you prefer?
Non-military GDP per capita would be a start, and would probably paint a very different picture. I don't know anyone who lived through WWII who saw the wartime economy as sunshine and butterflies: they all had to give up on basics to support the war effort. So if it was great economic time, that fact sure seems to have been lost on those who lived through it.
What economic indicator would you prefer?
PSDP - Private Sector Domestic Product.
GDP minus government spending.
In an argument about whethere government spending can lift the economy you want to count everything outside of government spending. So basically you want to rig the game to your axioms before it starts. Nice.
You're the one who rigs the game by defining a "boom" in terms of rising govenrment spending,. Yes, you're right, increasing government spending does in fact increase government spending. Congratulations on your unassailable logic.
Government spending is nothing but forced transfer payments.
That is why the GDP formula that includes government spending is a bogus metric of prosperity.
Bullshit.
Straight from the Wikipedia page on GDP:
In essence, GDP is a terrible figure because GDP ignores the broken window fallacy.
That assumes that the government creates a problem in order to solve it. A conspiracy theory like that needs evidence, not the blathering consensus of libertards.
(GDP - 2G)/AU
you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold!
And how much of that was transfer payments and government expenditures? Do you happen to have the breakdown for that?
GDP is irrelevant w/o taking into consideration Inflation:
1941 - 05.0
1942 - 10.9
1943 - 06.1
1944 - 01.7
1945 - 02.3
1946 - 08.3
1947 - 14.4
1948 - 08.1
1949 - -1.2
Source:
http://www.usinflationcalculat.....ion-rates/
Actually it was a surprise to the Keynesians who wanted to keep war time planning in place and figured there would be another depression once the soldiers came home from the war.
Keynesians today ignore that the closest thing to a controlled experiment in economics was run post WWII as Britain kept the controlled, planned economy of the war years while the US dumped the wartime regulations and ended many of the New Deal regulations.
Britain reverted to depression while America boomed.
There's a lot of truth to that statement, JoshinHB. Clement Attlee bowed to Keynesian cries for maintaining war time spending. After all, why not "stabilize aggregate demand" forever and have 0% unemployment and economic prosperity for all time?
If only it were so easy. Real wages stagnated, the standard of living continued its decline, and high inflation became the norm. Instead of releasing the productive resources that had been trapped in the public sector during WWII the Labour Party kept it in the hands of government.
Harry Truman did the exact opposite. He took a meat cleaver to the budget of the Department of Defense and allowed many New Deal regulations, taxes, and works programs to either be retired or remain dead. This massive influx in freed-up land, labor, and capital set the stage for America's boom years during the late 1940's. The Keynesian excuse of pent-up demand is a misnomer; consumer spending never even came close to what government spending had been during the war.
But when your entire macroeconomic theory gravitates around the broken AD/AS analytical model you can't really expect them to produce good policy advice, now can you?
Well, just recently some people point to China's stimulus and Sweden's.
Considering the epic failure of Japanese stimulus over the past ten years, as well as ours over the past two, I suppose you could say that at best the results are inconclusive.
So we should dump another trillion down the toilet?
I think China and Sweden have a little more going on than just stimulus.
China is on the verge of a massive recession.
China is on the verge of a massive recession.
As long as the just stay on the verge, they're doing ok, then.
I told you $600 billion $862 billion wasn't enough!
I don't normally subscribe to the "Bush started it" school of thought, but I thought the Tea Party started as a rebellion against the GOP-led stimulus under Bush, not against Obama. It may have grown because of Obama's policies, but this is one area where Obama should have been named Barack Walker Obama. Given the overall similarity of the two presidents' policies (with the notable exception of Obama Care, which the GOP probably would have swallowed from Bush), I do have some sympathy for the Obama apologists who won't admit any blame for their man because Bush "started it all," at least in this area.
That's why I belong to the APOBH (A Pox on Both Houses) party.
The GOP era was over in 2008 - it was a Democratic Congress (including Senator Obama) that passed the Economic Stimulus Act of 2008. Bush was dumb enough to sign it.
Bush also signed off on the first round of the auto bailout. But again, Congress had to pass it. Since Bush is no longer and politics and Pelosi, Reid and Obama, the people who were running Congress then are, it doesn't make a lot of sense to worry about Bush's blame in all of this.
I seem to recall Bush was a big cheerleader of it, not just the guy dumb enough to sign it. I remember when, for a glorious few moments, it looked like the GOP was going to grow a notochord (the precursor to a spine) and actually swat it down, but then they all got bought off too and helped grease it along.
The GOP didn't own Congress. I don't think they could have stopped it. There was one glorious moment when it looked like the far right and a few lefties might combine to kill it in the House. But there wasn't enough of them.
There were enough GOPers to do it. Recall that the House actually stopped it on the first round. I wasn't until it was larded up enough to buy them off that they followed their instincts and caved in.
It was GOP and far left members. The GOP didn't have the majority. I think we are both talking about the same moment.
I think it was George Will who properly identified the stimulus - it was a raid on the Treasury. It was a payoff to the Democratic interest groups who got Obama elected.
It was also an effort to massively expand the size of the federal government - and get as much as possible written into the baseline of future years.
The stinulus was a complete success in every aspect.
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Be you spam bot or be you commentator?
It's a copybot. It copied someone else's post from downthread and added an ad. I haven't seen one in this region before. They must be spreading.
It's happened a couple times to me, but not ads like that. Usually ads for the publication where the article originated. Like: "Subscribe to the New York Times" or something like that.
Just when I think the Internet can't get any more fucking worse...
The Tea Party started after Rick Santelli's rant in late February of 2009. Democrats would like to tell you that it only took a month of Obama being in office for the racist white people to come out. But it wasn't just Obama. It was a culmination of things that started under Bush. People really were made about the deficit under Bush. And they voted first for the Dems in Congress in 06 and then Obama thinking they would fix it. They also hated TARP.Then Obama comes in and continues TARP and wants an $800 billion stimulus. And people had finally had enough.
Not only that, but Bush's spendy ways during his second term lead to the GOP getting crushed in 2006. Maybe people werent calling themselves 'the tea party' back then, but they were sure voting like pissed off fiscal conservatives.
Absolutely. The deficit and GOP spending corruption were huge issues in the 2006 elections. It is just laughable when Democrats now claim that no one cared about the deficits when Bush was in office. The crooked bastards won control of Congress because people were angry about the deficits under Bush.
Really? But there were so many other massive failures to be angry about.
And your party has managed to take the failures that everyone knew were there and make them even worse. Congratulations! It's like you sent out a U-boat to torpedo the Titanic as it sank.
"U-boat?" We all know what that refers to, don't we?
It's like starting a fire with a cup full of gasoline, then thinking "well, fuck, if I pour a TRILLION cups of gas on it, the flames will be drowned out".
That is what Tony believes. Just think of the gas as a metaphor for taxpayer largesse.
Yeah. You already had growing movements like Porkbusters, and sites like Hot Air (about as conservative as it gets) trashing Bush on a regular basis for his domestic spending.
... but I thought the Tea Party started as a rebellion against the GOP-led stimulus under Bush...
The Tea Party did not pop up from nowhere. For any 'movement' to get off the ground, there are events that lead up to it. The first I remember of a major push back against government spending the Bridge to Nowhere. (I don't remember exactly when that was.) I'm not that observant, so I'm sure there were other things before this even.
Claudia Sahm of the Federal Reserve Board and Joel Slemrod and Matthew Shapiro of the University of Michigan found that only 13 percent of households indicated they would spend most of the windfall. The rest said they preferred to put it in the bank or pay off debts?neither of which boosts the sale of goods and services.
Perhaps my simpleton mind doesn't understand economomology as well as some, but I don't understand how you can conclude that paying off your creditors doesn't positively impact goods and services production in the long-run. From one point, the debtor would presumably be able to spend that money on other goods and services. Or, the creditor would now have some free'd up credit with which to provide to other suckers consumers or businesses capital with which to buy desired goods and services. I guess I could see it being a bit of a wash, but it sounds like what they're wanting is targeted areas of improvement and they're economic policies are failing.
But it wasn't sold that way. There was all this propaganda about immediate relief, "shovel-ready", etc.
The argument was that we had to do this stuff in the short run to get the economy going back on track quickly before it went further south. But if the impact is in the long-run, not the short-run, the urgency argument that was used for this falls down. The whole notion was that the government was the only entity that could address the macroeconomic concerns threatening the country right then and that the impact would be felt within a time frame of about 12-18 months. So, yes, in the long term, people might buy more because they have paid down personal debt, but that is countered, in the long term, by the price tag on the "stimulus" coming due since taxes must be raised or dollars deflated to pay for it all.
I didn't and still don't agree with the premise of a 'stimulus'. It absolutely seems like the worst way to stimulate short-run demand for anything. In my mind, it would have been a heck of a lot easier to just, you know.. buy shit, and then have the gov't auction it off or something (not that I would endorse anything of that nature).
Well, in our economy we have debt-based currency. Most, if not all money that comes into being is the result of debt. When a relatively significant number of people default on their debt (or pay it back early), there will probably be a monetary crisis, which is what we had (teh deflation). Getting money back into the system is the solution. There are several ways to do this. The government can borrow money and give it to people for digging ditches, or the Fed can lower interest rates and/or lower reserve/capital ratios to stimulate borrowing. We've done both, and we are still in the shit. That's because debt-based currency is fraudulent and unstable. Then throw in the fact that our currency is used as the world's reserve currency, and we really get into the shit, with no easy way out. Which is why many economists are predicting we will be in it for a decade or more, and some are even predicting complete collapse. It's not hard to understand why when you take a close look and realize we've all been being fucked for at least the last 100 years.
Here's an interesting article I came across, from of all places, the Atlanta Fed, that shows that free banking in the US wasn't as bad as some people would lead you to believe.
http://www.frbatlanta.org/filelegacydocs/ACFCE.pdf
I think it was George Will who properly identified the stimulus - it was a raid on the Treasury. It was a payoff to the Democratic interest groups who got Obama elected.
It was also an effort to massively expand the size of the federal government - and get as much as possible written into the baseline of future years.
The stinulus was a complete success in every aspect.
Yup. It raised the baseline spending through the roof. And it now allows the Democrats and their toadies in the media to scream about how radical going back to the dark ages of 2008 level spending is because doing so would cut "trillions in spending".
That was the whole point of the stimulus. Honestly, I don't think Obama and the Dem leadership have any idea what makes the economy work. They figured it would come back on its own no matter what they did. So why not steal as much as you can and also take credit for the recovery? No one is more shocked than they are that the economy hasn't come back.
"Honestly, I don't think Obama and the Dem leadership have any idea what makes the economy work."
That is a key point that underpins alot of the left's philosophy. How someone starts and sustains a business is a blackbox, they're "smart" guys (Ivy League degrees to prove it) but just have no idea how business works. Or how fragile it is. Look at Boeing. They think it's some sort of eternal piggie bank for them to fuck with at their pleasure. But Boeing could fail, just as any company can. Again, I suggest Obama spend a few years managing the second shift at a paper cup factory. Bracing reality will educate him more than his law degree.
Oh please, the far right's ideas about the economy are just as much of a fairy tale as the far left's. The real truth about how 'businesses and economies succeed' is likely somewhere in between.
Thank you for agreeing with me that Obama's view of the economy is a fairy tale.
Well, Obama is hardly on the outskirts of the far left, at least his administration's viable proposals are not.
You can move the goalposts to the outskirts of the far left, doesn't mean Obama understands how to run a business.
No goalposts moving dude, it was in my first post in this conversation:
MNG|6.30.11 @ 8:34AM|#
Oh please, the far right's ideas about the economy are just as much of a fairy tale as the far left's.
Yes, your first post addressed a point I didn't make.
And yet you ignored it and raised it later. Odd.
Wait...the brilliance of your argument has convinced me of my error. Obama DOES understand how to run a business. Thank you for helping me.
Yeah because the economic downturns that occurred before large government intervention lasted forever. If the truth was in the middle, there never would have been an economy before Keynes.
Methinks you're misunderstanding Keynes, did he say economic downturns would last forever absent government interventions?
If the economy will come back on its own absent government intervention, the the truth is not in the middle. The truth is exactly what conservatives say it is.
Well, you could point to the fact that since Kenyesian policies were widely adopted we have not had anything nearly like the economic downturns that once periodically plagued us...We haven't had anything like the Great Depression in decades and that is rare in our economic history. And during most of that time we had steadily increasing government intervention which conservative dogmatists always said would destroy the economy, yet it has not happened.
Economic downturns are a good thing.
You see, people are not perfect and as a result we make mistakes.
An economic downturn occurs when people make bad investments, and their mistakes are realized. It sucks because that means people get put out of work, but it is good because those resources are freed for other uses.
All government can do is try to insulate people from their mistakes by propping up bad investments based upon who has the most friends in power.
I fail to see how that is a benefit to society as a whole.
Well, you could point to the fact that since Kenyesian policies were widely adopted we have not had anything nearly like the economic downturns that once periodically plagued us
Bullshit, recessions (downturns) happened with greater regularity between 1945 & 2005 than they did between 1870 - 1930.
...We haven't had anything like the Great Depression in decades and that is rare in our economic history.
Bullshit, we are experiencing a modern day version of the Great Depression right now. It's better in some ways and worse in others.
You make it seem like anything Keynes said was new. He repackaged old ideas from Thomas Malthus and sold it to 20th century statists. Spending being the key to economic growth, the paradox of thrift...all of that is from Malthus.
You also need to keep in mind how turbulent macroeconomic policy was during 19th century America. Hyperinflation from the Civil War, suspension of species payments, wildcat banking supported by the states, and so on. Of course those things will lead to malinvestments that must be corrected.
Proto-Keynesian policies caused the Great Depression (the money supply doubled during the 1920s) and Keynesian policies prolonged the Great Depression. Haven't we gone over this before?
Nobody here is a conservative.
"Nobody here is a conservative."
I would call John a conservative.
Pretty much, yes.
According to Keynes, economic downturns turn into a spiral that ends with the end of the world.
People don't spend money (paradox of thrift) which means jobs go away which means less money to spend which means jobs go away... and then comes the end of the world.
Only government can save us - by spending money and preserving jobs.
Otherwise the world comes to a violent end.
Keynes was just another kook with a sign on his back.
Even without being an expert in Keynes I find it more likely you are mischaracterizing his views than that this famed economists was not aware of the commonly known fact that many economic downturns had occurred that eventually went away.
How many times have we been told that without the New Deal the Great Depression would never have ended?
It would never have ended!
Never!
There would still be bread lines!
THE GREAT DEPRESSION WOULD STILL BE IN EFFECT HAD FDR NOT IMPLEMENTED KEYNESIAN ECONOMIC POLICY!
YOU WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN BORN IF NOT FOR KEYNES BECAUSE THE WORLD WOULD HAVE ENDED!
AAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!
Dude, take your meds.
I'm up to date on all my anti-psychotics and thorazine. Don't worry.
My point is that Keynes was just another doomsday cultist, like Big Al, preaching that the world will end without massive action by government.
Of course he is hailed by politicians, because he gives them an academic excuse to enact laws and spend money that does not belong to them.
Is your bullshit detector completely broken?
My point is that [insert Austrian] was just another doomsday cultist, like Big Al, preaching that the world will end with massive action by government.
Uhhhhhh, no?
Austrians preach laissez-faire.
Austrians recognize that people fuck things up, and people with power fuck things up even more because they are insulated from the consequences of their actions.
Austrians understand that profit and loss, success and failure, without government intervention, is the way the economy should be allowed to work.
Can you provide citations for the economists who argue that the great depression would never have ended?
Because I think you just pulled that out of your ass.
It would have lasted longer without the New Deal and WW2, that's for fucking sure.
"Even without being an expert in Keynes I find it more likely you are mischaracterizing his views than that this famed economists was not aware of the commonly known fact that many economic downturns had occurred that eventually went away." Keynes knew downturns would go away, but that it would be in the long run, which is why he said "in the long run we are all dead". Personally, I think Friedman/Schwartz's explanation of the great depression is closer to the truth. MNG, isn't it true that there are numerous problems with Keynsian thought?
The idea that recessions will become steadily worse absent government intervention is a common idea among current-day neo-Keynesians and interventionist neoclassicals. As people have explained above, the idea is that lack of consumer and investor confidence causes the bust; people get unemployed which means they're spending less which means more people are unemployed so they're spending less and so on. On top of this is people "hoarding" money in banks. All of this amounts to a steady leftward-shift in aggregate demand which will continue until the government intervenes with fiscal and monetary stimulus; I've heard some economists refer to this as "unfavorable economic equilibrium" or something in that vein.
sarcasmic, that is a pretty fair summation of they way i learned it at University of Chicago.
I bet they forgot to teach about the Depression of 1920-21. Harding, Coolidge, and a Republican Congress decided to cut spending, cut taxes, and pay down debt.
Against all odds(according to Keynes), the economy recovered and produced the Raoring Twenties.
When the next recession came along, Hoover and FDR had other ideas.
They were all paper profits, you moron. That's what caused the depression.
Keynes was not a kook and you shouldn't attribute the idiocy that passes as "Keynesian" economics as something he would necessarily espouse. While Keynes called for spending to stimulate the economy during downturns, he also called for budget surpluses to be accumulated during good times. As usual, the idiots in Congress only buy into the spending half of the equation.
As usual, the idiots in Congress only buy into the spending half of the equation.
Exactly. The invocation of Keynes is merely a cover to justify more spending. (This is not to say Keynes was either right or wrong.)
Boom. Bust. Recovery.
This is an iron law of economics and human action that is unrepealable.
Congress can repeal any law.
Obamacare repealed Supply and Demand.
I hear Michelle plans to cure the obesity epidemic by doing a partial repeal of the law of Gravity.
Nobody believes that the business cycle can be repealed.
Softened? Yes.
MNG isn't it about time that you shut the fuck up?
You were schooled already about GDP. Why expose your idiocy to more ridicule?
Are you a masochist?
"Oh please, the far right's ideas about the economy are just as much of a fairy tale as the far left's."
How so?
The nonsensical assertion that GDP is a worthless indicator, or that Government spending cannot create growth.
Those are two from this thread.
The far left doesn't much care for GDP either. For example, it undervalues the work of stay-at-home moms who take care of their kids.
Boeing is actually in hot water right now; at the Paris air show, Airbus had an order of magnitude more orders than Boeing.
Airbus's A320neo is ready for sale while the 787 continues to be dogged by delays.
Boeing accounts for about 1% of total U.S. exports. I wish the government would quit trying to destroy them.
It was a payoff to the demo interest groups...
"the most sweeping payoff package in our history..."
fify
But, but, but what about intentions?
You silly people are arguing over results.
Results don't matter. Intentions are the only thing that matters.
It's all about the thought - what was meant to happen, not what actually happened.
Sheesh! How are we going to go to Hell if you focus on results?
Focus on the intentions.
They're all good, and they make for great pavement!
You're joking but there is actually a serious point there. When times are hard one thing the people don't like to see is an administration doing nothing, they want to see it doing something. Hoover was castigated for fiddling while the economy crashed, FDR was loved for trying stuff, almost anything, during the same.
The trick is to appear to be doing something without making things worse.
The problem with that thought is that Hoover did a lot to try to stop the depression and Roosevelt got elected promising to stop the excessive spending of the Hoover administration.
FDR, like many candidates, promised a lot of different things to a lot of different people...He talked about balanced budgets and then at the next stop castigated Hoover for not doing enough.
"The problem with Hoover was he did a lot."
You can stop right there. He thought he was smarter than the markets and could manage them the way he managed mining companies. He wasn't smart enough to leave it alone.
Sure they should do something. And if they had doubled welfare and food stamps and things like that I would agree with you. But they didn't do that. They just stole billions for their cronies. That is what is so sad about today. There are no liberals left. They don't give a shit about the less fortunate. If they did, they would try to do something besides steal.
I grant you the stimulus seems like a foolish failure. I opposed it at the time.
Re: MNG,
Which explains why Harding and Coolidge were so hated...
Hmm. I guess they were not.
That's a lie, MNG. FDR was NOT popular nor was he ever popular because of his meddling in the economy. He became really popular after the repeal of Prohibition, which made people forget about the really bad economic planning he indulged in. His handling of the economy was NOT as popular was you were led to believe by your Amerikan Pulbic Skool teacher.
http://mises.org/daily/4797
Tony? TONY??
cue crickets chirping
No, please, minge is enough.
MNG is infinitely less worser than Tony.
It was, he said at the time, the most sweeping economic recovery package in our history," and would "create or save three and a half million jobs over the next two years."
Well, he did say "save three and a half million jobs." If he didn't spend the money, those people would be jobless right now. So, you can't say it didn't work... Just like you can't say my rock doesn't keep tigers away. You don't see any friggin' tigers do you?!
"Steve Chapman is on vacation this week. We're re-running his column from June, 2010."
Oh, wait - it's a NEW column. So this is today's "Dog Bites Man" bit, yeah? got it.
"The administration says the results look meager because the economy was weaker than anyone realized."
Did not all liberals say the obama stimulus stopped a depression? I guess then we were really headed for a super duper red giant depression and all the coming regular ole depression talk was a gross under estimation?
No credible claim has been made that the economy would be better off without the stimulus.
Plenty of credible claims, using numbers and stuff, admit that the stimulus that was able to be passed was not adequate to return the country to full employment. It's a tragedy, but that's what you get (one after another after another) with Republicans in existence.
It's pretty easy to say we should have let the whole thing work itself out. Especially when you have a cozy job at a free market magazine and probably can go through daily life never encountering an unemployed person. Besides, as the man said, freedom means normal working people pay for all the massive fuckups of wall street bankers.
Your Team has been saying variations of "if it weren't for the stimulus, ECONOMIC DOOM would have befallen us" for months now, Tony.
And some of you want to do it all over again. It's like throwing a cup of gasoline on a fire, then saying you can put it out by drowning the fire with millions of gallons of gas.
Re: Tony,
The fact that the stimulus totally failed to achieve the goals stated by Obama's economic team tells you nothing? You're braver than I thought!
"And stuff"? You watch too many Jersey Shore shows, Tony.
Still waiting for those tax cuts for millionaires to start creating prosperity.
There's that wealth-envy thing again.
Wait... are millionaires getting MORE tax cuts, or just the ones they have now?
No, I'm just asking for a little evidence for 30 years of claims made about a policy.
Like your policy works.
Lol. There is absolutely no data that indicates that tax cuts create long term growth, but I'll keep believing it because I think you're more wrong.
Libertarianism in a nutshell.
So... high-assed taxes work. Got it.
>No credible claim has been made that the economy would be better off without the stimulus electing someone other than Bush.
Gee this is fun.
No credible claim has been made that the economy would be better off without the stimulus.
No, no credible claim has been made that the country would be better off in the SHORT TERM without the stimulus. Anyone familiar with economics and basic math (i.e., not you) knew that letting the overextended banks take their medicine would result in a lot of short-term pain for everyone, but it would be necessary in order to make these institutions pay for their own mistakes. Instead, idiots like you cheerlead TARP thinking that it "saved the system."
You're fucking ignorant. TARP didn't save shit--it disguised the trash sitting on the banks books and made the rest of the country liable for their mistakes. And Obama's big solution, one that's utterly failed to restore any sort of economic stability (unless you consider +400,000 unemployment claims a week to be stable), in contravention to what was promised.
And when it failed to do so, what was Obama's (and yours) excuse? "Well, the economy was worse than we thought." Well, no shit, you jug-eared buffoon--anyone not overly impressed with himself and done any sort of work while in the Senate could have seen how bad things were going to get--the entire financial infrastructure of the country had been compromised!
Devious little fucks like you pretend that no one could have seen this coming, merely to disguise the failures of your clay-footed, mush-mouthed Messiah.
A+
Speaking of Devious little fucks, you mentioned TARP twice, Obama twice, and Bush nowhere, which is curious considering HE SIGNED THE FUCKING BILL.
Many of us think signing TARP is one of the worst things Bush did, alongside the PATRIOT act and going to war with Eastasia.
PROTIP: Most of us aren't Republicans around here.
Considering I've never defended Bush on this anywhere, and Obama VOTED FOR THE FUCKING BILL, how about you go back to trolling for skank on OKCupid?
"The failure of Obama's economic agenda."
You mean a dumb fuck sack of shit with big ears failed??? Who could guess???
I don't listen to the guy who said "I hope he fails", but I'm glad he said it.
Why? Because you'd rather people suffer than be wrong?
Why? Because you'd rather people suffer than be wrong?
What's odd is hoping Obama *succeeds* in implementing policies that retard economic growth. Why would you prefer people suffer than be wrong? Amongh other things, why do you want to artifically keep housing prices up so poorer people can not afford them.
Fuck you, Derider.
Fuck you, Derider.
No credible claim has been made that the economy would be better off without the stimulus.
Proving a fucking negative, how does it work?
Typically, programs are evaluated against the goals they were put in place to achieve. Obamanomics has not achieved its stated goals. Ergo . . . .
Ergo nothing. I presume you're trotting out the same prediction that continues to serve this talking point... the one made before Obama was in office and which they already admitted long ago was too rosy.
You can't prove a negative either, so you can't claim that sans stimulus we would have been better off. The stimulus did pretty much exactly what was predicted it would do. No stimulus supporting economist thought it was enough to bring unemployment down to acceptable levels.
But let's be fair. The Republicans have had 30 years to prove that reducing taxes on the wealthy will create prosperity, and that never happened. So how about we give Democrats and their demand-side ideas 30 years before we declare it a failure?
Yeah, 2000 - 2008 just sucked hard, especially at a time when the left and their shills in the media were claiming the economic sky was falling. Remember how Kerry ran on the economy because it was soooo bad?
Now you get to see what a real recession looks like all under a Democrat watch.
How did the middle class do in 2000?2008? Do you know what also was happening in those years? The housing bubble.
More net jobs have been created under Obama than in Bush's entire 8 years. This is not Special Ed, we don't grade on a curve.
"See? SEE??? If it hadn't been for the stimulus, we'd have been soooooooooo fucked right now!!!"
Jesus.
How did the middle class do in 2000?2008? Do you know what also was happening in those years? The housing bubble.
And the tech bubble was happening in the 1990s, Tony--both were credit-driven and completely unsustainable, no matter what your professors told you.
Wonky math and cherry picked timelines won't help you. Bush had to deal with Clintons Tech sector slump in 2000, 9/11 in 2001 and finished with the economic decline that started right around the time Pelosi took over causing job slump.
All you need to know is 5% unemployment under Bush, and 9%+ under Obama. Simple.
Of course, if the left is to be believed, we've been in a recession since 2000, isn't that what you were all saying in Bush's years? In which case, Obama just seems to be doing a really bad job of managing the continued recession, unlike Bush who managed to maintain 5% unemployment without having to spend trillions.
Oh, and as for the middle class, I bet most of them would love to go back to the 2000's than todays shitfest.
Saw a poll the other day that showed that only 8% of Americans blame Obama for the economic conditions. Most blamed either Bush or Wall street. People actually remember that the shitstorm happened on Bush's watch. I am not claiming that things are all rosy and that everything Obama has done has been the right thing. I'm saying that one side's policy is better than the other's. For example, $4 trillion in tax cuts for rich people didn't create a single job, whereas the stimulus prevented a depression. Seems to me if we want to improve the economy, we should do less tax cuts for rich people and more progressive stimulus. But it doesn't matter, because you people are so ideologically entrenched that evidence is beside the point.
Still with the Bush tax cut harp??
A competing theory: http://online.wsj.com/article/.....inion_main
So, by that poll, 92% of the public believes Obama's bullshit.
God, are we fucked.
I think the fact that only 8% of the population believes Ayn Rand's idiotic claptrap as heartening.
... unlike Bush who managed to maintain 5% unemployment without having to spend trillions.
We're just fortunate Republicans never had a huge majority in the Senate. I just wish Bush hadn't lost his veto pen.
You're quite the cunt, Derider.
You can't prove a negative either, so you can't claim that sans stimulus we would have been better off. The stimulus did pretty much exactly what was predicted it would do.
Only in your fantasy universe. Tell me what the employment to population ratio is, Tony. Guess what--it's actually WORSE than the early 2000s recession, and it hasn't improved a bit.
Only someone like you who's incapable of doing math would think the stimulus saved the economy.
I didn't say it saved the economy or that it was predicted to do so by economists. I said explicitly that it wasn't enough to do that. It was enough to prevent a depression, and unless you have reason to claim that unemployment would actually be better now without the stimulus (a claim that simply doesn't make sense), then what exactly are you trying to argue?
I didn't say it saved the economy or that it was predicted to do so by economists.
Bullshit. That's exactly what you've been arguing in this whole thread. Stop lying.
Kicking the can down the road that ends at a cliff does not mean once the can goes over the cliff it'll cause a depression because we can always spend more money on the way down.
It was enough to prevent a depression, and unless you have reason to claim that unemployment would actually be better now without the stimulus (a claim that simply doesn't make sense), then what exactly are you trying to argue?
Christ, you are so passive-aggressive.
Of course the economy was going to hurt whether or not the stimulus passed--that's the whole point, you obtuse dork.
The stimulus didn't do anything other than kick the can down the road. A "stimulus," by definition, should stimulate the economy into recovery. Where's your evidence that it's done that? The U3 remains high, unemployment claims remain above 400K a week, housing prices are double-dipping, the unemployment to population ratio is the worst it's been in 30 years. If you think those facts are evidence of a recovery due to the stimulus, then clearly you're more ignorant than anyone imagined.
It was NEVER supposed to merely "keep a bad situation from getting worse," and you know that. Obama's own economic team made VERY SPECIFIC claims that the bill that was passed would result in stable, then rapidly falling unemployment.
It hasn't done that, but that doesn't stop you from lying about what they did or didn't claim.
Not that the predictions made by Obama's "economic team" prior to him even taking office are irrelevant, but they themselves have said that the situation was worse than predicted. I'm sure politics probably played a role. It's a rather minor thing to hang the entire debate about which policy works best on.
What happened instead of a long depression was the recession technically ended 2 years ago and we've had low single-digit GDP growth since. Of course creating large numbers of jobs requires even more GDP growth than normal economic times, so it's certainly not gonna happen with the anemic growth we're having.
The point is it doesn't matter what the conditions are now. You could always make exactly the same claim you're making now: things aren't perfect, therefore the policy was a failure. So what's your alternative? And would I have been able to deem it a failure if unemployment were the same or worse at this point in time, had you gotten your way? Or do you get special rules because you're OK with more misery?
Aren't we debating which policy works best?
If you measure recessions by a fall in GDP then sure it ended. But I have a homework assignment for you; Google the GDP equation and tell me which variable was increased exponentially under the Obama administration. I"ll give you a hint: it wasn't "C" or "I".
GDP can only grow with inflation. So why don't you just be candid with us and say that you want the government to print money and spend it on whatever. At least Keynes and Krugman are honest about being inflationists.
How can you formulate any kind of policy without looking at how things are now?
Nobody's saying it failed because unemployment didn't fall to 0%. Everyone has said it's a failure because it has failed to pass the litmus test of sound economic theory and it hasn't met its own benchmarks for success.
First and foremost to impose sweeping cuts on all levels of government to release land, labor, and capital into the private sector. Second, repeal as much regulation as politically possible to make the movement of resources between industries as the economy restructures itself as smooth and efficient as possible. Third, cut taxes as far as possible without increasing the deficit. Fourth, and perhaps most important, raise the federal funds rate to deflate our current credit expansion mess. Paul Volcker, anyone?
Once the recession is over we make moves to totally privatize our nation's currency, finally allowing the money rate of interest to follow the natural rate of interest. This would effectively stop the boom-bust cycle from ever occurring in the United States.
It depends at what point these policies were implemented. They would cause unemployment to climb somewhere above 10%, maybe peak at 15%, as the economy undergoes restructuring according to consumer time preference and demand. But if these policies were implemented after the 2008 stock market crash we'd most likely have seen the end of the Great Recession in late 2009 or 2010. The depression of 1920, far worse than what we're undergoing now, ended after a year of government non-intervention, so I'm being pessimistic in my ballpark estimates.
Not that the predictions made by Obama's "economic team" prior to him even taking office are irrelevant
Your entire argument rests on this premise. Unfortunately, it's not true--the predictions were produced after he took office. It's how the damn thing was passed to begin with and sold to the public. And it was sold under the pretense that it "wasn't too much, wasn't too little, but just right" (as if an economic bill is a pot of porridge). He got Congress to pass a bill based on data HIS administration produced, was completely, utterly wrong, and you can't stand it.
The point is it doesn't matter what the conditions are now.
No, that is the WHOLE POINT, fucknozzle. Obama made a prediction. He gained support for the plan based on that prediction. He failed--HE DID NOT MEET THE GOALS HE USED AS THE CRITERIA FOR JUDGING THE BILL'S SUCCESS. You're only walking it back because things are still fucked, right now, today. If the U3 was at the levels Romer and the rest of the know-nothing academics in Obama's circle had said they were going to be, you'd be rightly raving about what a success it was.
The fact that you've been dissembling on this entire subject whenever it comes up shows you know that you're full of shit. You have NO data to prove that the stimulus accomplished what it was meant to do. NONE. Where is the stimulated economy, you lying fuck? It's still in the fucking hole. I've got the data to back up my claims--you've got jack shit.
Fine so Obama flubbed a prediction. It's not an impeachable offense. If it were, Bush would have been hauled off in his flight suit.
That the economy is worse than predicted does not imply that the policies in place are wrong and the opposite policies are right.
Fine so Obama flubbed a prediction. It's not an impeachable offense. If it were, Bush would have been hauled off in his flight suit.
No one's saying it's an impeachable offense, you dumb poz. We're saying he's fucking clueless about the economy.
That the economy is worse than predicted does not imply that the policies in place are wrong and the opposite policies are right.
What's with the bullshit special pleading? If the guy's policy was wrong, it was wrong, period.
At least you finally brought yourself to admit that Obama fucked up. It took months of shoving the blatantly obvious in your face, but that's progress.
The policies are right but inadequate, which is what I've consistently said. The economy did go from crashing to weak growth, so it stands to reason that more of the medicine that caused that is in order, not the complete opposite policy.
If marginal tax rates go to 100% and the government finances 100% of consumer spending with debt, we will live in Tony's nirvana.
... but they themselves have said that the situation was worse than predicted.
And that doesn't tell you anything about the value of their predictions?
"You can't prove a negative either, so you can't claim that sans stimulus we would have been better off. "
We don't have to prove a negative.
The negative condition prevails by default unless those claiming the affirmative can prove it to be so with absolute definitiveness.
Which ALWAYS puts you liberals on the wrong side of the rules of evidence.
You are the ones always claiming some government activity can produce a superior outcome vs doing nothing.
Since you cannot prove that it has with absolute definitiveness, that AUTOMATICALLY means that it hasn't.
This puny yield was even worse than that of the 2008 tax rebate devised by President George W. Bush. Neither attempt, the study reported, "was very effective in stimulating spending in the near term."
There was a comment on Zerohedge where "Tyler Durden" pointed out that the tax rate might as well be zero, since Bernanke's monetization had effectively proven that the government doesn't need tax income to keep running.
"That was the alluring theory, which vaporized on contact with reality."
But, but, all scientist agree man is causing climate er... duh... I mean all economist agree spending more....
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It should be noted that there is more to the Dartmouth paper by Fayrer and Sacerdote than this article would have you believe.
First of all, while the paper does indeed make an estimate of $400,000 dollars per job it also says the cost may have been as low as $170,000 dollars. From the abstract
"A cross state analysis suggests that one additional job was created
by each $170,000 in stimulus spending. Time series analysis at the state level suggests a smaller response
with a per job cost of about $400,000."
To cite one figure and not the other seems disingenuous to me. Furthermore, this article completely neglects to mention that one of the major conclusions of the paper was a large variation in effectiveness of the different parts of the stimulus.
This article seems content to cite Feyrer and Sacerdote when they find that the stimulus was not effective. However, it does not mention that the paper substantial multipliers for certain parts of the stimulus. Again from the abstract
"Support programs for low income households and infrastructure
spending are found to be highly expansionary."
While it is true that the final verdict is that the stimulus was not as effective as the administration had hoped I think these subtleties make it difficult to interpret this as evidence that Keynsian economics is totally faulty (as has been done throughout these comments).
Reason editiors think "Pseudoscience" is just science they don't agree with. Quoting studies out of context and against the conclusions of the authors don't worry them one bit.
The economy is growing, the Dow is rising, and unemployment is a point below where it was in October, 2009. Where's the beef?
YOU ARE SUPPORTING A FASCIST GOVERNMENT CANT YOU SEE!
The economy is growing, the Dow is rising, and unemployment is a point below where it was in October, 2009.
"The economy is growing"--due to $1.5 trillion deficits. Take those away, and the "growth" drops to around -8%. How long do you think the country can sustain that?
"The DOW is rising"--because Wall Street's playing smoke and mirrors with HFT algos.
"unemployment is a point below where it was in October"--because people are falling off the rolls or taking lower-paying jobs, in case the +400,000 initial claims a week and the lowest employment-to-population ratio in 30 years wasn't evidence enough for you. The U3 is still higher than it was when Obama took office, by the way.
Irrational minds and irrational markets?
U mad, faggot?
You're the best useful idiot I've ever had.
You're the best useful idiot I've ever had.
Don't confuse the participants here with your daily Grindr-chases.
Unemployment is pretty bad for minorities (40%), the unskilled/uneducated, and undocumented workers/illegal aliens, but hey, we're just a bunch of heartless libertarians who don't care about the poor and disadvantaged.
Unemployment is pretty bad for minorities (40%), the unskilled/uneducated, and undocumented workers/illegal aliens...
It's a good thing we had that stimulus spending, else the unemployment would be 110 percent.
I would SO suck Obama's cock.
President Bush's biggest mistake was appointing Ben Bernanke. Ben levied a huge printing tax that completely undid all the good the lower capital gains rate was doing. President Obama's biggest mistake was reappointing Ben. Ben levied an even bigger printing tax on consumers that completely undid any good that the payroll tax trim did.
Printing is a tax on consumers. Printing lowers consumer purchasing power. Employees can buy less with their paycheck at the store, and retirees can buy much less with their pensions.
The best stimulation would be to lower the printing tax. Every store owner knows that consumers flock to sales. That is, consumers buy more when prices are lower.
I suspect the problem with the 'shovel ready' projects was that they got mired in bureaucracy. At one time (decades ago), it would not have been that tough to get projects off the ground fairly.
For starters, you've got to pay Davis-Bacon wages or use union contracts to get any work done. Myriads of environmental studies must be done before a foot rests atop a shovel.
The only thing that's really "shovel ready" is paying consultants to produce useless studies.
Inflation is being overmeasured, say the geniuses at Third Way who were on NPR yesterday. Scroll down to page 3 under "More Accurate COLAs".
They suggest tinkering with CPI to get social security payments lower and get tax brackets lower to help close the deficit. This reminds me of LBJ's plan to fight inflation in egg prices by having the Surgeon General scare everyone about cholesterol in eggs.
That's how SS and Medicare payouts will be reduced. 'Fix' the CPI to show less than the real inflation rate, then lower the COLA increases.
But Obama's agenda IS economic failure. He is following George Soros' orders.
So am I.
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