At least that's the diagnosis from the Washington Post's Zachary Goldfarb, who claims in his profile of the scandal-plagued, tax-confused Secretary of the Treasury that Geithner has been buoyed by nearly three years of total failure.
The notable part of the profile is that it posits a deficit-hawk Geithner pitted against President Obama's Keynesian brain trust. (If you're keeping score, Geithner is the only member of the Obama economic team who has not yet been put out to pasture.) Here's a characteristic challenge of the superfriends:
Lawrence Summers, then the director of the National Economic Council, and Christina Romer, then the chairwoman of the Council of Economic Advisers, argued that Obama should focus on bringing down the stubbornly high unemployment rate. This was not the time to concentrate on deficits, they said.
Although Geithner was not as outspoken, he agreed with Orszag on the need to begin reining in the debt, according to current and former administration officials. Some spoke for this article on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations.
Even before the president had been inaugurated, Geithner had been urging him to set a target for the budget deficit that would require shrinking its size to 3 percent of the U.S. economy. At that level, the national debt would eventually become manageable.
"From the earliest moments of the administration and even before, he clearly had a big focus on long-term deficit reduction and making clear, not just to the markets but for the entire economy, that the government is living within its means," Goolsbee said in an interview.
The economic team went round and round. Geithner would hold his views close, but occasionally he would get frustrated. Once, as Romer pressed for more stimulus spending, Geithner snapped. Stimulus, he told Romer, was "sugar," and its effect was fleeting. The administration, he urged, needed to focus on long-term economic growth, and the first step was reining in the debt.
Wrong, Romer snapped back. Stimulus is an "antibiotic" for a sick economy, she told Geithner. "It's not giving a child a lollipop."
Although it's all well and good for Geithner to talk about building a credible long-term fiscal strategy, where I part ways with him is the idea that such a strategy is incompatible with short-term stimulus. Indeed, I think we need a short-term stimulus to get enough Americans working again that tax revenues can rebound healthily and make a serious dent in the deficit.
It's fitting that Salmon makes this claim while discussing Romer, who cut her teeth by demonstrating the uselessness of fiscal stimulus, then got a job in the stimularious Obama Administration and claimed her earlier work did not say what it clearly said. I'm just a simple caveman, but it seems to me for Salmon's plan to work — the government pays a bunch of people to work, then uses tax revenues on their income to reduce the deficit — you'd need an income tax rate of at least 101 percent. With the multiplier effect, maybe all things are possible?
As for whether Geithner is the enduring stimulus skeptic in the Administration, I invoke my First Amendment right not to care. At this point I've heard many tales of economic policy debates in the Obama White House. They always play as clashes of core beliefs: Romer's faith in the multiplier against the supposed restraint of Orszag or somebody; Goolsbee's skepticism of the auto bailout vs. Summers' machiavellian machinations, and so on.
The player who never gets mentioned in these scenarios is Reality. Massive fiscal stimulus, and even more massive monetary stimulus, have been tried in both the Bush and Obama administrations, at a cost of trillions of dollars to future Americans. These efforts didn't fall out of favor because of some ideological debate or because this or that person had the president's ear. They were put into practice and they failed, publicly and catastrophically, even on their own veryforgivingterms. Whether Turbo Timmeh supported this waste or just failed to prevent it, he needs to be fired.
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The only reason Keynes's gibberings haven't taken their place next to cold fusion, Piltdown Man and Hitler's diaries is that they are useful to a certain political view.
BushPig Obama has proved himself to be an aggressive military expansionist surrounding himself with ghoulish Clintonites and Bush retreads. Vote for more death if you please but don't expect to be praised for it, you big-government dope.
Exports are only up because we're driving the dollar into the shitter as fast as we possibly can (the Fed's doubling down on the low-interest fuck-up that green-lighted the financial meltdown), with Europe doing all it can to devalue right along with us. Only the re-jiggering of the CPI methodology is saving us from a misery index of 20.
Take the deficit spending out of the picture, and the money-printing, and things aren't so pretty.
And the thing about those is, they aren't sustainable. You can't simlutaneously print hundreds of billions of dollars AND run trillion dollar deficits AND keep low interest rates AND devalue the dollar for long.
Remember, these were supposed to be temporary, to be followed immediately by real growth in productivity and jobs. Which hasn't happened. All that growth was supposed to back soak up the liquidity, pay off the debt, all that stuff.
So when you hit the wall on fiscal monetary policies and you don't have your growth (and we don't), what happens? Massive disruption and contraction, that's what.
Every liquidity/credit bubble looks great, shrike, right up until it doesn't.
And you aren't the least bit capable of proving that anything either one of them has done has had any net positive effect on either the stock market or the economy.
"SCAP (March 2009) made the banks raise capital for their own well being as CAPITALISTS."
How does requiring banks to raise more capital--and refusing to let them make more loans unless they do--encourage economic growth?
"Bushy-boy simply handed them a TARP check."
Bush handed them half the TARP check--which Obama didn't object to in any way.
And the first thing Obama did when he got in office was hand them the other half of the TARP check.
Obama was no better than Bush on TARP. Actually, since he condoned both the first $350 billion and then personally handed out the last $350 billion--he was worse than Bush on TARP.
Read this headline "TARP Vote: Obama Wins, Senate Effectively Approves $350 Billion" from January 15, 2009.
Either argue that correspondence equals causality.
Argue your appeal to authority.
Or Keep moving the goal posts around!
But just pick one...
Arguing that choosing the S&P 500 from when Obama took office--three months after Lehman cratered--is a piss poor example of logic a la cum hoc ergo propter hoc
Lehman craters in late September--and takes the S&P 500 with it...but there's no reason to think that has anything to do with the correlation? The reason the market's up from its lows has nothing to do with Obama taking office just after the market cratered?
Is that what I'm supposed to believe?!
Here's another stat--the S&P 500 is still down 17.4% from its high--which it hit three months before Obama took office.
Be still my heart. The S and double-o P is up 90%!!! The economy is saved! Ignore housing, unemployment, and, well, almost every other marker of the actualy economy.
The economic team went round and round. Geithner would hold his views close, but occasionally he would get frustrated. Once, as Romer pressed for more stimulus spending, Geithner snapped. Stimulus, he told Romer, was "sugar," and its effect was fleeting. The administration, he urged, needed to focus on long-term economic growth, and the first step was reining in the debt.
Wrong, Romer snapped back. Stimulus is an "antibiotic" for a sick economy, she told Geithner. "It's not giving a child a lollipop.
See, if government stimulus has a "multiplier" effect, we can continue to use the profits of that stimulus for more stimulus. As an example I would like to point to the Soviet Union, which has always been and still exists to this day as an economic powerhouse that exports goods used by people all over the world on a daily basis.
Shriek for the lulz. Let us know when you get a job, esp w/a Fortune 500. Cause from a bidnessman's perspective, you're just wrong about everything, Shriek. EVERYthing.
But you are entertaining, in the same way that an injured ant being attacked and torn apart by other ants is entertaining.
Who was the guy who recommended not to bail out the banks?
Who was the guy who recommended not to bail out GM?
Who was the guy who recommended not put Fanny and Freddy into receivership?
Who was the guy who said to let housing prices fall?
Geithner may not have had his hands in deficit spending (why have a treasury head who you are not going to listen too?) but he had his hands in a shit load of other bad things.
Stimulus is an "antibiotic" for a sick economy, [Romer] told Geithner. "It's not giving a child a lollipop."
I wish these clowns would stop using simplistic, essentially meaningless metaphors, but apparently this stuff really is the best they can come up with.
Isn't it disturbing to learn that they don't just put these absurd folkisms out for popular consumption, but actually use them seriously when talking with their fellow geniuses?
Isn't it enough these guys are fucking up left and right, backwards and forwards, by the numbers, in new and inventive ways? Do they really have to satisfy an urge to produce some sort of "West Wing" style backstory narrative, too? What the hell is next? Action figures?
Isn't it disturbing to learn that they don't just put these absurd folkisms out for popular consumption, but actually use them seriously when talking with their fellow geniuses?
I'm going to go on believing that there's a core of impressive malevolence in these assholes, and those stupid quotes are all some kind of PR rope-a-dope.
If I have to, I'll believe their brilliantly malevolent cores conspire telepathically while their conscious minds and mouths are doing Special Needs Theater productions of My Dinner with Andrew Sobel.
Idiocy is random, goddamn it! It can't have uniformly evil results.
I can't be the only person around here who's ever had to explain an analysis to a boss who had no idea what I was talking about.
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Obama picked "antibiotics" over "sugar" 'cause he liked the way it sounded.
We project competence onto some very incompetent people.
...sometimes just because they're on TV or because of their position.
But just because the president has taken it upon himself to make decisions on behalf of all of us? Is no reason to assume he has any idea what he's doing.
Generally speaking, the only place you'll find where you're supposed to analyze something and write a report--for someone who knows more about the subject than you do?
Is when you're in school.
Add the Peter Principle to that--and you're talking absolutely common.
I expect everybody we hire to know more about what they do than I do. Our lawyers and architects don't understand our deals better than we do, but they better know law and architecture better than we do--that's for damn sure.
But that boss was a Peter Principle victim for sure.
For example I know wwaaaay more about computer programming than my boss. He's just a better "people person" so he got the managerial position. ie - he kisses the right ass.
This is just rats jumping off the ship. Everything the Obama economic team has done has failed. This is just the first of a lot of "I tried to tell them" hand wringing and finger pointing.
I've come to believe that the biggest deficiency in our govt
is the illogical and goofy manner
in which decisions are made. All because of the fact that basically this is not a democracy. I have no
clue as to why people think we have
a democracy. We elect representatives once every so many years, they go off and make laws, without consulting the public before or during the process. We stand around publishing articles and signing petitions in an attempt to
influence the decisions being made.
Or try to remove representatives who have acted against our best interests, etc. All this is a total waste of time. We do not need, nor do we want people "representing" us in Congress, making the decisions only we have a right to make.
We are the only ones who have the right to decide which laws should be passed and which regulations enforced. The technology exists to do this currently, and there is no good reason to remain a slave to 18th century communications technologies, which was the only reason for our representative govt in
the first place. The system has failed and is failing now. A few
constitutional amendments is all that is needed to remove the power from elected officials and put it where it belongs - with the citizens.
This is quite a good article,although firing Geithner will not matter one bit, so as far as I am concerned he can stay till January 2013. The person who needs to be fired is Barack Obama on November 2012 and if this does not happen, nothing else will matter.
The Secretary of the Treasury's broad powers pretty much start and stop with signing dollar bills. Tim, your issues with Geitner are very irrelevant. Direct your anger towards those who make the policies.
The only reason Keynes's gibberings haven't taken their place next to cold fusion, Piltdown Man and Hitler's diaries is that they are useful to a certain political view.
Shirley Sherrod!
Is this a spoof?
Who ya callin' a spook, mistuh cracker?
Cavanaugh has gone nuts.
S&P 500 up 90% under Obama/Geithner - SCAP worked wonders.
Obama has cut taxes for small biz and capital purchases can now be expensed in one year.
The labor market is saying 'Fuck you' to domestic Americans since IT/Customer Service can now be outsourced for pennies on the dollar.
And Ron Paul has made a fool of himself - see his big Fed meeting of June 1, 2011.
Obama's economic policies have failed on their own terms, shriek. We were told we'd be at 6.8 unemployment right now.
Exports are way up, interest rates are low, profits are record highs, inflation is a low 2% --- even a Bush Idiot can make money in this environment.
and Google and Apple - those libs print money.
Bushnecks are just stupid.
We also have Trillion-Dollar Big wars draining the American pocket book, so fuck off shiriek. Obama thinks war is good for the economy.
STF up, you idiot.
Look at the scummy GOP candidates. They all suck.
I am a free market capitalist who despised the shitty eight Bush years and will vote Obama in 2012.
BushPig Obama has proved himself to be an aggressive military expansionist surrounding himself with ghoulish Clintonites and Bush retreads. Vote for more death if you please but don't expect to be praised for it, you big-government dope.
Why do you attempt to change the subject from record market rises to a fake war in Libya?
Suck my cock, you Aborto-freak GOPer.
I mean, what can one say at this point?
Intellectual honesty is hard, let's go shopping!
I mean, what can one say at this point?
To someone who thinks it's a booming economy with free-market Obama? Not a damn thing.
Well I guess we have something in common.
I will be voting for the Libertarian candidate so we will both be voting for losers.
Carter started that housing for humanity thing...anyone want to start a dead pool on what Obama will start doing once he is out of the white house?
Carter?
You stupid dipshit - his piddly little policy means nothing today.
Why are you guys arguing with a five year old?
Exports are only up because we're driving the dollar into the shitter as fast as we possibly can (the Fed's doubling down on the low-interest fuck-up that green-lighted the financial meltdown), with Europe doing all it can to devalue right along with us. Only the re-jiggering of the CPI methodology is saving us from a misery index of 20.
We're headed into 1937 again.
Idiot. We are headed to 1997 again. With Bill Clinton winning big - AGAIN.
GOPers suck ass in economics. David Stockman and Bruce Bartlett will testify from the inside.
We'll be 1980s Argentina/Brazil in 15 years. Mark my word.
...timmeh....
Shrike just point to the place on the doll where Rush touched you.
I came for the Libertarian discourse, I stay for the lulz.
"even a Bush Idiot can make money in this environment."
So sayeth the guy typing from his mom's basement because he can't afford to move out of the house.
The same guy who likes to pretend he's some big financal hotshot.
LOL
Is that going to be your guys' campaign theme next year, "the economy is great, and if you don't agree you're an idiot"?
Please run on this notion, I'm begging you!
The thing is, no one fucking cares because unemployment is 9.1% and the U6 is 16%.
Take the deficit spending out of the picture, and the money-printing, and things aren't so pretty.
And the thing about those is, they aren't sustainable. You can't simlutaneously print hundreds of billions of dollars AND run trillion dollar deficits AND keep low interest rates AND devalue the dollar for long.
Remember, these were supposed to be temporary, to be followed immediately by real growth in productivity and jobs. Which hasn't happened. All that growth was supposed to back soak up the liquidity, pay off the debt, all that stuff.
So when you hit the wall on fiscal monetary policies and you don't have your growth (and we don't), what happens? Massive disruption and contraction, that's what.
Every liquidity/credit bubble looks great, shrike, right up until it doesn't.
Precisely. Like I said: Argentina/Brazil, here we come.
"S&P 500 up 90% under Obama/Geithner"
And you aren't the least bit capable of proving that anything either one of them has done has had any net positive effect on either the stock market or the economy.
Bullshit.
SCAP (March 2009) made the banks raise capital for their own well being as CAPITALISTS.
Bushy-boy simply handed them a TARP check.
Obama = Capitalist.
Bush = Socialist.
Now suck my dick.
Congressman Weiner? Is that really you? Did you knock your wife up, or did Slick Willy beat ya to it?
"SCAP (March 2009) made the banks raise capital for their own well being as CAPITALISTS."
How does requiring banks to raise more capital--and refusing to let them make more loans unless they do--encourage economic growth?
"Bushy-boy simply handed them a TARP check."
Bush handed them half the TARP check--which Obama didn't object to in any way.
And the first thing Obama did when he got in office was hand them the other half of the TARP check.
Obama was no better than Bush on TARP. Actually, since he condoned both the first $350 billion and then personally handed out the last $350 billion--he was worse than Bush on TARP.
Read this headline "TARP Vote: Obama Wins, Senate Effectively Approves $350 Billion" from January 15, 2009.
It's from the right-wing Huffington Post.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....58292.html
It says Obama is a jackass.
Via SCAP, Obama forced the banks into a secondary.
But fuck that - the market LOVES Obama -- I can name 40 top capitalists of 45 who think like I do.
I think you should pick a fallacy:
Either argue that correspondence equals causality.
Argue your appeal to authority.
Or Keep moving the goal posts around!
But just pick one...
Arguing that choosing the S&P 500 from when Obama took office--three months after Lehman cratered--is a piss poor example of logic a la cum hoc ergo propter hoc
But see for yourself!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.....n_Brothers
Lehman craters in late September--and takes the S&P 500 with it...but there's no reason to think that has anything to do with the correlation? The reason the market's up from its lows has nothing to do with Obama taking office just after the market cratered?
Is that what I'm supposed to believe?!
Here's another stat--the S&P 500 is still down 17.4% from its high--which it hit three months before Obama took office.
Shrike learn how to make a non-fallacious argument and then you can come back to make a fool of yourself.
heller, learn how not to post consecutively as heller and 'rather retarted' on the same thread three minutes apart during the ides of night
"Bullshit."
You certainly are full of it.
You have never been the least bit capable of ever proving ANYTHING you have ever claimed in this forum.
S&P 500 up 90% under Obama/Geithner
Be still my heart. The S and double-o P is up 90%!!! The economy is saved! Ignore housing, unemployment, and, well, almost every other marker of the actualy economy.
We're saved!
Could Shrike be an Obama [mis]information czar?
From taxpayers' perspective, the stimulus was neither sugar, nor antibiotics, but rather STEVE SMITH.
+1
See, if government stimulus has a "multiplier" effect, we can continue to use the profits of that stimulus for more stimulus. As an example I would like to point to the Soviet Union, which has always been and still exists to this day as an economic powerhouse that exports goods used by people all over the world on a daily basis.
Overuse of antibiotics results antibiotic-resistant germs......
When I buy, I always buy USSR.
Sounds genius! No issues with counterfeit products there!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn3YqoRDTQo
I'm soooooooo retarded
Eddie Haskell had far more integrity than Geithner.
Shriek for the lulz. Let us know when you get a job, esp w/a Fortune 500. Cause from a bidnessman's perspective, you're just wrong about everything, Shriek. EVERYthing.
But you are entertaining, in the same way that an injured ant being attacked and torn apart by other ants is entertaining.
Stay golden, Pwnd-y Shriek.
Let us know when Econ 101 is in your hindsights.
You are probably a Palin fan -- pure idiot.
Mommy hid your little blue boner pills again?
Probably because she has a headache, and doesn't want to put up with that right now.
Butt hurt from the other ants tearing you apart, Shriek? :*(
1) stimularious Obama Administration - Timmeh!
2) The player who never gets mentioned in these scenarios is Reality. - TIMMEH!
3) Whether Turbo Timmeh supported this waste or just failed to prevent it, he needs to be fired. - Ahh, TIMMEH!!
Timmeh! You are the best with the late-night posts!
"As for whether Geithner is the enduring stimulus skeptic in the Administration, I invoke my First Amendment right not to care."
I'll second Cavanaugh's motion not to care...
...but first, who in this grand policy debate was arguing for deep tax cuts to stimulate investment and growth?
Wasn't there anyone?
Hello?
to continue:
Who was the guy who recommended not to bail out the banks?
Who was the guy who recommended not to bail out GM?
Who was the guy who recommended not put Fanny and Freddy into receivership?
Who was the guy who said to let housing prices fall?
Geithner may not have had his hands in deficit spending (why have a treasury head who you are not going to listen too?) but he had his hands in a shit load of other bad things.
I would never argue for keeping Geithner, but it's not like they've got somebody else in the wings--who's more reasonable?
The Obama Administration's problem isn't the staff--it's their ideology.
They're guilty of all the ideological blindness they accuse fiscal conservatives and siders of--and more!
Sometimes I think they did half the stupid shit they did in a feeble attempt to prove fiscal conservatives and supply siders wrong.
That's a mighty shitty way to run the country.
Stimulus is an "antibiotic" for a sick economy, [Romer] told Geithner. "It's not giving a child a lollipop."
I wish these clowns would stop using simplistic, essentially meaningless metaphors, but apparently this stuff really is the best they can come up with.
Isn't it disturbing to learn that they don't just put these absurd folkisms out for popular consumption, but actually use them seriously when talking with their fellow geniuses?
Tim, the tide comes in, the tide goes out - you can't explain that...
If I were trying to explain economic concepts to someone who's as economically illiterate as Obama apparently is?
I'd might be reduced to using metaphors too.
Ok, Mr. President, when two people love eachother very much...
Isn't it enough these guys are fucking up left and right, backwards and forwards, by the numbers, in new and inventive ways? Do they really have to satisfy an urge to produce some sort of "West Wing" style backstory narrative, too? What the hell is next? Action figures?
What the hell is next? Action figures?
A photoshoot from Annie Leibovitz.
Oh wait...
Remember - Dickless Cheney wanted Pat Tillman killed after he found out PT was a liberal Chomsky fan.
I think it's safe to say people would have wanted Action figures than any more of this twaddle.
Keep digging, Shriek. You are...indescribably delicious.
Your problem, Shrike, if I may-- is you start off with an argument-- a bad one, but an argument nonetheless.
But you always end up coming off like Jeanene Garafalo's ugly friend.
Which makes your initial argument look even worse than it initially did.
Isn't it disturbing to learn that they don't just put these absurd folkisms out for popular consumption, but actually use them seriously when talking with their fellow geniuses?
I'm going to go on believing that there's a core of impressive malevolence in these assholes, and those stupid quotes are all some kind of PR rope-a-dope.
If I have to, I'll believe their brilliantly malevolent cores conspire telepathically while their conscious minds and mouths are doing Special Needs Theater productions of My Dinner with Andrew Sobel.
Idiocy is random, goddamn it! It can't have uniformly evil results.
I loved My Dinner with Andre
Like he said, idiocy is random.
I can't be the only person around here who's ever had to explain an analysis to a boss who had no idea what I was talking about.
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Obama picked "antibiotics" over "sugar" 'cause he liked the way it sounded.
We project competence onto some very incompetent people.
...sometimes just because they're on TV or because of their position.
But just because the president has taken it upon himself to make decisions on behalf of all of us? Is no reason to assume he has any idea what he's doing.
I can't be the only person around here who's ever had to explain an analysis to a boss who had no idea what I was talking about.
So the guy who knows nothing is the boss, and presumably makes more money
and
guy who knows it all is the employee, and presumably makes less money
I always wondered how that worked?
Actually, that's common.
Generally speaking, the only place you'll find where you're supposed to analyze something and write a report--for someone who knows more about the subject than you do?
Is when you're in school.
Add the Peter Principle to that--and you're talking absolutely common.
I expect everybody we hire to know more about what they do than I do. Our lawyers and architects don't understand our deals better than we do, but they better know law and architecture better than we do--that's for damn sure.
But that boss was a Peter Principle victim for sure.
For example I know wwaaaay more about computer programming than my boss. He's just a better "people person" so he got the managerial position. ie - he kisses the right ass.
This is just rats jumping off the ship. Everything the Obama economic team has done has failed. This is just the first of a lot of "I tried to tell them" hand wringing and finger pointing.
Meh
Here's another stat--the S&P 500 is still down 17.4% from its high--which it hit three months before Obama took office.
Remember, stock markets discount the future. A few cherry-picked dates for you.
Obama nominated June 4, 2008. S&P: 1377.20
Obama elected November 5, 2008. S&P: 952.77.
Obama takes office January 21, 2009. S&P: 840.24.
S&P today: 1278.39. Still less than the day he was nominated.
Meant to add: A long slide from nomination to election, and still hasn't recovered three years later.
I might go along with the stimulus-as-antibiotic argument.
Overuse of antibiotics leads to their ineffectiveness.
Geithner and Obama, two people who should never have been involved in national monetary policy.
They both lie all of the time.
I've come to believe that the biggest deficiency in our govt
is the illogical and goofy manner
in which decisions are made. All because of the fact that basically this is not a democracy. I have no
clue as to why people think we have
a democracy. We elect representatives once every so many years, they go off and make laws, without consulting the public before or during the process. We stand around publishing articles and signing petitions in an attempt to
influence the decisions being made.
Or try to remove representatives who have acted against our best interests, etc. All this is a total waste of time. We do not need, nor do we want people "representing" us in Congress, making the decisions only we have a right to make.
We are the only ones who have the right to decide which laws should be passed and which regulations enforced. The technology exists to do this currently, and there is no good reason to remain a slave to 18th century communications technologies, which was the only reason for our representative govt in
the first place. The system has failed and is failing now. A few
constitutional amendments is all that is needed to remove the power from elected officials and put it where it belongs - with the citizens.
This is quite a good article,although firing Geithner will not matter one bit, so as far as I am concerned he can stay till January 2013. The person who needs to be fired is Barack Obama on November 2012 and if this does not happen, nothing else will matter.
The Secretary of the Treasury's broad powers pretty much start and stop with signing dollar bills. Tim, your issues with Geitner are very irrelevant. Direct your anger towards those who make the policies.