New York Times to Orchestra Pits: Papers, Please!
Fresh off its searing lament that Iraq lacks a strong enough central authority to rescue Iraqi citizens from their own "tastelessness," the cultural arbiters The New York Times have ripped the lid off another international outrage: There are foreigners playing in those visiting orchestras!
The Dublin Philharmonic that played two years ago in nearly 50 towns? Mostly Bulgarians. The Moscow State Radio Symphony Orchestra that toured the United States last year? Largely freelancers. The "Tschaikowski" St. Petersburg State Orchestra, which is scheduled for a major American tour next year? Even the man advertised as its principal guest conductor said he had never heard of it.
A close look at these groups shows a pattern of creative marketing — even truth shading — concerning credentials and identities. At the least, audiences often do not know what they are getting, even though visa regulations require the groups to be "recognized internationally as outstanding" and to have had three-quarters of the same players for at least a year. Many of these groups are in fact pickup ensembles or have little reputation, even in their home countries.
The above paragraphs were above the fold on the front page of today's newspaper.
Coming next from NYT CSI: There are two different touring versions of The Sweet. Some Mexicans don't even like Frida Kahlo. And that tech-support gal with the Bangalore accent on the phone? Her name might not be Judy.
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The Dublin Philharmonic that played two years ago in nearly 50 towns? Mostly Bulgarians.
Call out the Fraud Squad!
There are two different touring versions of The Sweet
Sweet
System of a Down toured with the Dublin Philharmonic?
If they toured with the Istanbul State Orchestra that would be funnier.
This is blatent, given that Irish law makes it very clear that Bulgarians are not allowed to live in Dublin.
Oh noes! Pretenders to culture who don't have anything but passing knowledge but want desperately to appear knowledgable might be taken in. The horrors of being called out over PBRs. Thank God for the NYT.
Sorry. If I bought a ticket to hear the St. Petersburg State Orchestra, I fear I, too, would be taken aback to learn it had never actually played, you know, St. Petersburg.
The chef at that restaurant that served me California Cuisine was born in Ohio!
I am taken aback!
No. The avocado salad was taken back.
Florida or Russia?
The Gulf coast produces the best bassoonists, I always say.
As a former bassoonist born on the east coast, I shake my fist at you, CN.
BTW, Amsterdam's Annual Bassoon Festival is both exhilarating and well attended.
True story.
I was a high school orchestra bassoonist.
I got better.
Apparently, the Leningrad Cowboys are, well, from Leningrad...
And they've never worked as ranchers???
Then you'll probably also be dismayed to learn that U2 is actually a record by Negativeland.
Estelle Costanza works for the NYT?
You're not Chinese! I was duped!
What about Menudo?
Ok. Reading this post again, I'm even more confused. I hates me some NYT, but it seems as if they are raging against the scurge of symphonic misrepresentation, not foreign fiddlers.
Evidently, a concern with false advertising and misrepresentation of product quality is akin to elitism.
It doesn't appear there was any false advertising, just a bit of taking advantage of people's propensity to jump to conclusions.
Yeah, the "conclusion" that the Dublin Philharmonic would have some Dubliners in it.
You know who does an awesome rendition of Danny Boy?
Wing.
Just like you would expect the Kansas City Royals to have some Kansas City natives on it, rather than a bunch of Dominicans and Venezuelans?
No.
No, I expect the Kansas City Royals to have some royalty, or at least titled nobility, on the field.
Just like booking The "Beatles" and expecting The Beatles.
There aren't other orchestras with the same name.
No, no, Tulpa! See, the quote marks give it away! We admit they're not The Beatles, just The "Beatles"!
See this, also.
It does appear to be misrepresentation. For example:
But it's the NYT publishing the article so "snark snark snark..."
Yup. Reverse elitism is funny.
This has nothing to do with elitism. We're pointing out the stupidity of complaining about your own assumptions when they turn out to be false.
Legally, misreprentation is a false statement of fact. I doubt any of these would be considered such in a court of law. Those who contracted with these companies assumed a statement of fact that was never made.
In that case, I would agree that it's misrepresentation.
But that's because I would consider the word "Bolshoi" to be akin to a trademark.
The name of a city or country should not be trademarkable.
You cannot spell bullshit without Bolshoi.
Bolshoi is a Russian word for "great", so I don't see it being trademarkable either.
Bolshoi just means large in Russian.
It's potentially trademarkable.
The words "Amazon" and "Google" are real words with real meanings, too.
Not nearly as widely used, though. General Electric can't sue General Motors for making batteries, for instance.
Google isn't a real word, googol is.
Thanks, I have apparently been misspelling that word for a long, long time.
In the absence of the misuse of a trademarked name, I don't see any false advertising.
Dupes falsely associate Russianness with quality in a particular field. Realizing this, I give my product a Russian-sounding name.
I don't see how this is different from any other branding exercise undertaken by any other business anywhere in the world.
The "dupes" are expecting that an orchestra touring as "the [insert large city name here] Philharmonic" are an established orchestra with a reputation. I suppose the folks in the hinterlands get what they deserve for not doing their due diligence before buying their tickets. Still seems like a shady practice on the part of the organizers.
This reminds me of every kitchen gadget and cleaning product hawked on TV using an Englishman to pitch their product because, somehow, Americans think English men clean or cook better than their American cousins.
I suppose the folks in the hinterlands get what they deserve for not doing their due diligence before buying their tickets.
Uh.......yes? Isn't this kind of a bare bones bedrock principle of the free market?
And I seriously doubt people in "the hinterlands" are at much of a disadvantage compared to city folk, particularly in the age of the Internet.
City folk have their own well-established orchestras. The Internet can't quite confer that advantage.
And I don't think "Be a shady sleaze bag" is a bedrock principle of the free market.
I can pull five ass hairs out right now and call the six of us the Vermont High Class Really Extremely Elite Ass Hair Philharmonic and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
No one owns the word "Philharmonic".
So it is right & fair to be a shady sleaze bag. Have fun with your ass hairs.
I'm told he does on a regular basis.
No, that's not the point at all.
In the absence of someone owning the word, it's simply not my job to care about whether you think I "deserve" to use "Philharmonic" as part of my group's name.
If I have a bunch of guys who play instruments and who can convince people to pay us to do it, you know what that makes us? A professional orchestra.
It would be misrepresentation for me to call us an orchestra or a "Philharmonic" if we sold you tickets and then came out and did Harlem Globetrotter basketball tricks.
But if we play music and you complain that calling ourselves an orchestra misled you about how good we would be, tough.
Why do you find it hard to accept that the promoters or tour managers are being willfully shady, maybe not dishonest in a legal sense, but still trying to deceive? Do you fear that you'll be kicked out of some club if you acknowledge that a NYT article has a valid point?
In order to be shady, it has to be shady relative to some other non-shady practice.
But there is no Academy out there empowered to say who is and who is not a legitimate orchestra. That means that every orchestra's marketing is equally unsupported.
Sorry, this pushes a button of mine because it is very closely related to a recurring question, "Who is a professional?" I am pretty opposed to official credentialing in all but a handful of limited cases; demanding comformity to an unofficial credentialing process is in some ways eve worse.
The article does not that the musicians aren't professional. The thrust of it is that some touring orchestras represent themselves as something other than what they are. That is shady. It is shady in relation to orchestras that don't do that. Why did that orchestra use Dublin in its name if not to trade on a misperception?
The thrust of it is that some touring orchestras represent themselves as something other than what they are.
I am disputing that this is what they have done.
Why did that orchestra use Dublin in its name if not to trade on a misperception?
If I call my housing development "Colonial Pines" I am trading on the impression that name makes on the public. But the US isn't a British colony any more. So is my branding exercise a deception? Or is it indistinguishable from all other branding exercises?
Please clarify: Are you being disingenuous or obtuse?
I don't think I'm being either.
You are investing value in a semantic system I am actively hostile to.
That means I'm not going to carry any of the water for your side of the argument.
You think it should be immediately obvious that it's OK to call your soap "Irish Spring" even if it's not made in Ireland, but not OK to call your orchestra the "Dublin Douchebags" unless they are Irishmen.
I don't.
Ok. Obtuse, it is.
A reasonable person would not think "Colonial Pines" was part of the British Colonies. "Irish Spring" is clearly labeled both "soap" and "Made in USA," so a reasonable person would not confuse it with water from the old country. On the other hand, given that the convention is that orchestras are based in the city they are named for, a reasonable person would assume that...jiminy xmas. Forget it. You're going to go on living in your head anyway.
You would have been better off going with "disingenuous", since I have essentially admitted that I know the basis for your argument but am deliberately discarding it as beneath concern, while forcing you to express it in ever-finer terms, in order to help you discover its baselessness for yourself.
"Obtuse" implies that I don't know what you're talking about. I do. I just don't care.
given that the convention is that orchestras are based in the city they are named for
Once again, you simply state as a given the very fact we are disputing.
I do not accept that anyone has the authority to impose such a convention. That's the whole point of this discussion.
In the absence of such a convention, if you don't like what I name my orchestra, too bad.
No one owns the word "Philharmonic".
Disney's working to correct that problem as we speak.
...even though visa regulations require the groups to be "recognized internationally as outstanding" and to have had three-quarters of the same players for at least a year.
Um, why the FUCK is this a visa requirement?
How about "We have halls willing to book us, so that proves we're outstanding. And as soon as we play ONE gig together we're an orchestra, even if we never met each before."
Probably because they don't want dime-store Bulgarian string players to take gigs away from out-of-work American cellists.
It's a union thing.
The visa requirements are, of course, idiotic.
And there's a fly in my bean shoot gazpacho.
It's a visa requirement because it's the only way cities like Cleveland can boast of a "World-class Orchestra." Once the hicks see a group of random Bulgarians playing just as well for 1/4 the price, the street cred of America's great symphonies goes out the window.
This is an inaccuracy.
ANYONE can get a visa to tour.
The "internationally outstanding" bit is a green card requirement.
And this is why whenever I evade the NY Times' paywall, I get a twinge of satisfaction because seriously, fuck those guys.
I read the NYT online all the time and never run into the paywall. You just have to give them the secret LiberlProgressiveFascist Code they hand out at the Sunday Secret Subversive Spoken Word Meetings.
I KNEW it!
The New York Times is so French it make the French look good.
Symphony-goers are known for their provincialism.
The Charlatans were so proud of their homeland that they added UK to their name here in the states. What are these musicians hiding?
The English are worse. How else to explain the insertion of that descriptor to the name of the band "The Beat"
My "French" fries were made in Idaho!
The best players on the New York Yankees aren't even from New York!
I wonder how many "reporters" at the NYT were born in NYC?
Hardly the same thing. When one purchases a ticket to hear the Berlin Philharmonic, one expects to see the Berlin, Germany band, not the one from Ohio, the fine print notwithstanding. Such shady practices are an age-old attempt to cash in on someone else's hard work and reputation. Having said that, caveat emptor.
And when I buy Poland Spring water, I damn well expect it to have come from Eastern Europe, not Maine.
Water bottlers are bad all over the world at this.
Oh yeah, let's not even start with selling tap water as "bottled".
Did you know the Amish make fine timpini players? It's true.
[citation needed]
""When one purchases a ticket to hear the Berlin Philharmonic, one expects to see the Berlin, Germany band, not the one from Ohio,""
Bullshit.
The Berlin Philharmonic just means it's based in Berlin, it means nothing about where their members are from.
Invisible Finger's analogy is apt.
Now, if it's not really the Berlin Philharmonic, and they are posing as such, then that would be wrong. I think the Berlin Philharmonic would have an issue with a difference orchestra using their name. Same if some yahoos in Kansas started calling themselves the New York Yankees.
My name Peggy
And you need a shave.
I don't think that the NYT cares that they're foreigners, just that they're misrepresenting who they are. It's not like they expect the Dublin Philharmonic to be from Ohio or the Moscow State Radio Symphony Orchestra to be from Indiana. The complaint is more akin to the NY Yankees going on a barnstorming tour overseas and the players that show up are guys on the Charleston Riverdogs and Tampa Yankees. Sure they're in the Yankees system, but they're not who you were expecting.
Sorry, no. To fit the analogy, you would be complaining about none of the New York Yankees actually being from New York...which is of course true.
The orchestras in question are not stealing a name from an existing orchestra, they're just making up a new one.
Uh, A-Rod was born in NY.
A-Rod wasn't born, he was grown in a slime pit like an Uruk-hai.
And that slime pit was in Washington Heights. Probably under the GW bridge.
Fine, what about Kansas City?
No one expects the Royals' players to be from KC. No one ever has. Babe Ruth was neither from Boston nor NY and no one cares.
Did you read the article? If so, did you understand it?
I don't have time to read articles.
Most symphony goers would expect a top-level symphony orchestra to have players from many different countries -- or at least not to be surprised by it.
What would be surprising is if the "St. Petersburg State Orchestra" was conceived in Boise and contained the finest musicians to be found on the island of Madagascar. Now, there might be some fine talent management in Boise, and fine musicianship in Madagascar, but still, it seems to be a bit of a misrepresentation, n'est-ce pas?
Who said that it was a top-level symphony orchestra?
complaining about none of the New York Yankees actually being from New York
Wrong. No sane or reasonable person expects or demands that the Yankees be native New Yorkers. One may rightfully expect performers in the Moscow Philharmonic to be actual Russian musicians (with the high standard of musicianship associated with Russian conservatories) and not a Filipino pickup band.
You mean, no person familiar with the workings of major league baseball would expect that. When I take foreign students to Pirates games they're usually surprised to find out the players aren't from Pittsburgh.
Likewise, I'm sure people who are familiar with the orchestra scene are well aware of this practice.
Are these foreign students also foreign to the concept of professional sports? Do they not know that Man U players aren't from Manchester or that the Yomuri Giants players aren't from Tokyo?
I don't know; most of them aren't from England or Japan.
Do keep in mind that in the early days of pro sports in the US, the players were almost all from the area their team represented. That's probably the case for pro sports in India and China these days.
That's probably the case for pro sports in India and China these days.
I can't tell if this is xenophobic or racist. Guys?
Can't it be both?
I can't tell if this is xenophobic or racist.
Recognizing that pro sports are fairly new developments in till-recently-poor countries like India and China is neither.
Perhaps not, but assuming they live a lifestyle equivalent to what ours was 130+ years ago kinda is. Especially since both nations are emerging economic superpowers.
Now, if you'd have said Syria and Iran, you'd have had me.
They're also surprised at the sparsity of shoe repair shops. Is that xenophobic of me to notice too?
Send them to NY. There are tons of shoe repair stores.
That's NYC. They probably have obsolete professions like knife sharpeners, piano tuners, and porn video shops in every square mile too.
Nobody tunes pianos any more?
From what I know about Chinese pro basketball, there's significant concentration of talent in the top couple of teams, which would imply that the players aren't all from the city. And the players in the Indian Cricket League are from all over, including outside of India.
Maybe they were pulling my leg. They were probably making fun of me in Hindi through the whole game.
Also, the reason early pro sports leagues were largely local people was because they largely were regional leagues because transportation was slow and expensive. Even in developing countries, transportation is cheaper and faster than in 19th century America.
"When I take foreign students to Pirates games they're usually surprised to find out the players aren't from Pittsburgh."
Hell, they're not even pirates.
But the biggest disappointment comes when they find out half of the guys on the field aren't even baseball players.
Hey now!
My gawd, I laughed, so hard. You outted me at work!
I am shocked, SHOCKED to discover that Troy Polamalu has never worked at a steel mill.
lol
Likewise, I'm sure people who are familiar with the orchestra scene are well aware of this practice.
Correct, the author of the article and his 3 friends.
Again, this is stupid.
I can invent a new salad dressing in my kitchen right now and call it "St. Petersburg Salad Dressing" and if anyone buys it because they heard somewhere that they have great salad dressing in Russia...too bad.
Finally, a chance to bring this up.
Somebody please tell me what the fucking difference is in French, Russian and Catalina dressing.
In America, there really isn't any by modern standards. Russian dressing, invented in America, was originally much closer to Thousand Island dressing. French dressing and Catalina dressing are the same basic product marketed under different brand names. By the 1950s, Russian dressing drifted into meaning French/Catalina dressing that was less sweet and more tart.
French dressing is sweeter, basically Russian with sugar. Catalina is basically a rebranded French. Thousand Island is Russian dressing with relish added.
One may rightfully expect performers in the Moscow Philharmonic to be actual Russian musicians
Actually, top-level orchestras are much more international these days, though you would probably expect the majority of musicians to be Russians.
Did you know that the New York Giants haven't played a game in New York City since 1975? And they only play in New York State once every 8 years?
or the New York Jets too, and they play in Giants Stadium.
Probably because they don't want dime-store Bulgarian string players to take gigs away from out-of-work American cellists.
The International Brotherhood of String Musicians' local 635 is very concerned about the menace of dog-eat-dog free market foreign labor intruding onto its turf.
Next time you see a starving French horn player trying to do "Welcome to the Jungle" for pocket change on the sidewalk, I hope you think about the unintended consequences of your open borders rhetoric.
That's a mighty fine cello you have there. It would be a shame if something should... happen to it.
I hope the Bulgarians at least had the good sense to dye their hair red.
too bad the NY Post didn't break the scandal, then the headling would have been: "Bolshoi? More like Bullshit Ballet!"
Next time you see a starving French horn player trying to do "Welcome to the Jungle"
it will be his final attempt.
I LOLed loudly.
One of my favorite versions of the 1812 Overture was done by the Dallas Symphonic. They mixed in US army 8 inch howitzers. If you have some awesome Klipsch speakers (...awesome Klispch being a bit of a redundancy), it sounds fucking awesome.
Oh, I couldn't give the slightest fuck whether the players were from Boise, Barhain, or Bulgaria.
"awesome Klispch being a bit of a redundancy"
You are correct, Sir
Unless the "Dublin Orchestra Plays Wagner's Greatest Hits" turns out to be an accordion polka festival, I shall remain unmoved.
Hey!!!
You know, you're not related to me.
One of the few things I find to be as dreadful as a tractor pull is a symphony. Snore.
Music, like medecine, was meant to progress.
You mean like Britney Spears? Lady Gaga? The Bay City Rollers? All that Lloyd Weber crap? Screamo (sorry Warty)? Baldknobber Jamboree? JOan Baez? Def Leppard?
Just Beiber?
*shudder*
Back the hell off Def Lepard!
So, I attend the snootery often(foreign wife and all) so trust me when I say 98% of the people buying these tickets know what they are getting. If any fraud has occured it would be on the venue for promoting some second rate euro trash, BUT this rarely happens. I went to a Doc Severenson concert and he literally found three guys in a subway in Moscow, they were called Trio Veronish...they were absolutely awsome. When the wife wants to see "real" russians, we go to $12 concerts at the local university, and the only people there speak Russian (freaked me out the first time, no cause the crowd was all Russian but that the University had hired Russian vendors...was like being at VDNH all over again but without the ktisch). Anyone who attends ballet knows that the Ballet of Moscow is NOT the Moscow Ballet (incidentally, I went to the Opera Garnier in Paris to see a Russian Ballet group that was made entirly of Americans...and they sucked...but we knew who we were going to see. We mainly went for the venue).
You have a danlging participle
I hear their road manager is a tool though.
Screamo (sorry Warty)
What on earth gave you the idea that I can tolerate screamo?
I wish Philip Glass upon you, fucker.
I've done some investigation of my own on this topic, and I've discovered that in my own town here in Oregon, not a single employee of our Kentucky Fried Chicken franchise is from Kentucky, nor are the chickens, even! Congress needs to intervene at once!
I thought that's why they switched to KFC. Or was that because it's not really chicken but cricket meat? I don't remember.
They switched back. KFC could mean other things, like Korean Fried Cunt or something.
WTF
So what if the Peoria Monster Tractor Pull Extravaganza that came to play a stadium in Osaka turned out to be a bunch of Albanians driving Craftsman 23 hp Yard Kings?
dude, i'd pay.
Do they sell beer in stadiums in Osaka? Because that sounds totally worth it, if only for the stories I could tell later.
Gravedigger doesn't even have an excavator attachment!
Maybe the NYT can crack the R&B group scandal next.
"Wait a second, we don't recognize three of those Tops!"
Outside the issue of misrepresentation, the fact is that when it comes to eastern europe and russia, after the wall fell most of the best players all came (or did their level best to) to the US or western europe, or Australia or NZ. Orchestra musicians are like anyone else, they follow the money, and the ones you get on these tours are the ones willing to play for very, very little (which is still better than very little at home).
I'm beginning to think the Trans-Siberian Orchestra may not be Siberian. Or an orchestra. Or even trannies?
"The "Tschaikowski" St. Petersburg State Orchestra, which is scheduled for a major American tour next year? Even the man advertised as its principal guest conductor said he had never heard of it."
Can we all agree that that part is a problem? Running ads that claim your product is associated with Person X when in fact Person X has neither heard of you nor arranged through a third party to allow you to use his likeness is not good.
A close look at these groups shows a pattern of creative marketing ? even truth shading ? concerning credentials and identities.
Unlike, say, "all the news that's fit to print," right?
Right. If it's in the Times, it's necessarily suspect.
Don't even get me started on the Blue Man Group.
Or Cirque du Soliel.
We don't know what any of you are talking about.