Unwelcome Surprises in Libya
Declaring our intervention in the Maghreb a failure
Is it too early to declare our intervention in Libya a failure?
More than a month after we started bombing, the insurgency has suffered a string of defeats. The government in Tripoli suddenly looks as permanent as the Sahara.
The U.S., after handing off the combat responsibilities to other countries, got pulled back in last week to launch drone attacks. Britain and France are sending military advisers to try to turn the rebels into a semblance of a real army.
These forces are not only poorly trained and badly led but grossly outgunned. As a New York Times reporter on the scene noted Thursday, "Taken together, the rebels' mismatched arsenal and their inexperience and lack of discipline have made achieving the revolution's military goal extraordinarily hard." If not a failure, this effort is certainly not a success.
The NATO campaign may have accomplished its simplest goal: keeping Moammar Gadhafi's forces from capturing the rebel stronghold of Benghazi. President Barack Obama, on the basis of scant evidence, claimed that was necessary to prevent a bloodbath.
But any innocent lives saved in Benghazi may be lost elsewhere as the war settles into a bloody stalemate. Already, hundreds of civilians have been killed in the siege of Misrata, a city of 300,000, and the fight is not over.
The Obama administration imagined that a taste of the lash would put Gadhafi in his place. Either he would stop his attacks, or he would be forced from power, or both. But neither has happened, and neither is about to. Some insiders even worry that he will soon be able to launch a new offensive to take Benghazi.
That leaves Obama in an awkward position. Before we jumped in, the president declared that the colonel "must go." If there was any doubt about Gadhafi's fate, the NATO campaign was supposed to dispel it. While insisting that toppling the tyrant was not part of our mission, Obama acted as though it were a fait accompli, thanks to us.
"It may not happen overnight," he assured the American people, "as a badly weakened Gadhafi tries desperately to hang on to power. But … history is not on Gadhafi's side. With the time and space that we have provided for the Libyan people, they will be able to determine their own destiny, and that is how it should be." (my italics)
Apparently no one informed the dictator. "Gadhafi's people are feeling quite confident," one European security official tells Reuters, predicting the civil war will produce a "de facto partition for a long time to come," with Gadhafi retaining control of most of Libya.
Is that an acceptable outcome? Not from what the administration has said. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said last month, "This is a man who has no conscience. If he stays, we can't predict what he will do."
But it looks like he will stay. If so, Obama will have two unwelcome options: He can slink away after failing to achieve the goal he proclaimed or expand the U.S. military mission in hopes of getting our way.
The new status quo could be worse than the old one. In recent years, Gadhafi had given up his militant stance toward the West, going to great lengths to rehabilitate his regime.
He stopped his nuclear weapons program, agreed to compensate the relatives of those killed in the 1988 Lockerbie bombing and cooperated so closely with the United States that Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn., called him "an important ally in the war on terrorism." President George W. Bush took Libya off the U.S. government list of terrorist supporters.
Now, however, Gadhafi could resume his old troublemaking ways. And if Libya falls into disorder, parts of it may become a lawless haven for violent Islamists. Does "Afghanistan" mean anything to you?
Faced with the prospect of Gadhafi hanging on to power, Obama may find himself reconsidering his pledge not to use American ground troops. The only thing presidents dislike more than escalating wars is losing wars.
Obama can take no solace in the complaint of President Lyndon Johnson as he pondered Vietnam in March 1965, before the big U.S. buildup: "I can't get out. I can't finish it with what I've got. So what the hell can I do?"
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All these years and he never advanced past colonel? It's shameful that Obama can't defeat this glorified middle manager without using ground troops.
š
Why is libertarian thinking so incapacious, so black & white?
They don't call it the political incarnation of autism for nothing.
political incarnation of autism
I love it!
Because hoping for the fairy godmother to show up and give better options than the ones that are available isn't much of a plan.
Is too!
That's the way logic works. You should try it some time.
Oh, I know. There's a 3rd option. You can send in more troops while at the same time you say that's not really what you're doing. Or you can leave with Ghadafi still in charge and say "Mission accomplished"
Obama could ignore all the citizens killed and pronounce millions of citizens in Libya made or saved.
Why not? It worked in Darfur!
Hmm, I wonder if you two libertards mated what it would produce...fucking scary...Resident Evil: libertopia?
...Who am I kidding? Y'all would just sit around and masturbate all day. It would me aptly named
Resident Jerk circle: Mommy come clean up my spooge
Better than the D.C. bukkake fest that you jack yourself off to sleep with every night!
Is that your fantasy? NTTIAWWT
So sorry!
I got disoriented when I used my magic Kent Brockman lens to peer into your big government troll soul!
It was black by the way, black as the Ace of Spades!
Don't get mad because I bought at the right time!
When's my right time, Kent? When's my right time?
GET TO DA CHOPPA!
Hmm, I wonder if you two libertards mated what it would produce
Well after we marry and have our first child you will be a full fledged libertarian by that point. Women do tend to adopt the politics of their husband...plus i am awesome so why wouldn't you.
So I guess we are going to find out.
I hope you like to be bound and gagged
I hope you like to be bound and gagged
You have not felt my firm yet genital touch nor heard by elegant soprano voice.
I do not think your S&M utilities will ultimately be your desire.
But hell i am a libertine as well as a libertarian...I will try anything.
My firm yet genital touch? Was that intentional? If so, kudos.
He can slink away after failing to achieve the goal he proclaimed or expand the U.S. military mission in hopes of getting our way.
This is the same "black and white" choices every left winger and conservative are looking at as well.
In order to make claims that libertarians are somehow different in their thinking you actually have to demonstrate a difference.
If you are going to do something, don't do it half-assed.
If you are not going to do something then don't do it half-assed.
lol
You can't win a war and overthrow a government with bombs alone. You have to have land forces. And you have to capture and hold ground. Any idiot who has heard a shot fired in anger or spent more than ten minutes reading military history knows this.
Sadly, the country doesn't have just any idiot advising the suit on this. It has Samantha Power one of the most flagerantly stupid people in government. We have a Harvard lawyer and journalist making military policy.
Look, if Obama thinks it is worth while to get rid of Kadafi, then send in a couple of divisions and end it. And if it is not worth doing that, stay the fuck out of it. Instead he has chosen the worst of all possible options, the half assed war, which consists of radomly bombing and killing people for no particular purpose other than making us feel better.
"""for no particular purpose other than making us feel better."'"'
But that has been the purpose from the start, to make the people in Washington (Mostly Democrat's in this case) to feel better about themselves. Notice how many time Rwanda was brought up in selling the no-fly zone, they feel bad about not intervening there so they jumped in in Libya. The fact that Libya has little to do with the US makes it even better since that way it sounds more altruistic and therefore makes them feel even better about intervening
And we are making things worse by bombing. If you want to have a war, you want it to be violent, decisive and quick. The worst thing that could happen to the Libyan people is a drawn out civil war. And that is exactly what we are giving them. If we hadn't intervened, at least the war would be over by now. Instead, we are helping to turn Libya into 1980s Lebenon.
terrific, when is Algeria/Sudan going to send troops in and declare a state of emergency?
Kadafi already has an army of mercenaries from God knows where. Those guy's meal tickets depend on the regime. They are not going to go away easily. The longer this goes, the more bad blood there will be and the harder it will be to put the country back together.
What if the Democrats wanted to be altruistic but all they had was bombs?
/Return to sender/
/Address unknown/
/No such number/
/No such zone/
I just realized Power is married to Cass (soft coercion) Sunstein. That is a authoritarian couple from hell.
Thanks for telling us now John; the fucking ink is dry on the surrender!
We should nuke Libya? No thanks.
Well then you get your ass over there and kick some butt, tough guy!
Maybe we can set one off a couple of miles off the Libyan coast...
Sadly, the country doesn't have just any idiot advising the suit on this. It has Samantha Power one of the most flagerantly stupid people in government. We have a Harvard lawyer and journalist making military policy.
They have complete faith in their god -federal government.
It's will creates reality on earth as in DC.
Math, military reality, human nature all melt before the willpower of the federal godverment.
Too bad the fuckers keep trying to divide by zero!
"You can't win a war and overthrow a government with bombs alone. You have to have land forces. And you have to capture and hold ground. Any idiot who has heard a shot fired in anger or spent more than ten minutes reading military history knows this."
That's the dumb fuck, John McCain way to fight a war. You might try reading the history of the 2nd World War. Not one fucking American troop, save for prisners, set foot in Japan and the war was over in 3 days when we got serious.
Tell it to the Marines.
No shit, those weren't Russians we were fighting on Iwo Jima and all the other islands, that I'm pretty sure Japan considered their territory. And if it weren't for the nukes, we would have been forced to invade the Japanese mainland.
Mt point exactly. War can be won from the air....ALONE!
should read "my".
We dropped TWICE as many bombs in Vietnam as we by ourselves in WWII! Twice as much explosives as it took to kill Hitler and in a country the size of Wyoming! Thinking that bombs wins wars is EXACTLY why I hate those Air Force jack offs who have yet to give one legit reason as to WHY they shouldn't be folded back into the rest of the military where they belong!
"We dropped TWICE as many bombs in Vietnam as we by ourselves in WWII! Twice as much explosives as it took to kill Hitler and in a country the size of Wyoming!"
We didn't drop the right kind in the right place. That war was also needless. The bigger problem there was we had a draft. I don't care so much now that we have mostly gap tooth, sister fucking, NASCAR loving, bible thumping volunteers to "die for their country".
You're right about it being a needless war, I won't deny it and neither will most people nowadays.
As for the "right kind in the right place", you are VERY fucking wrong. Most of the important VC operations were underground (some right underneath our fucking bases) and our "air power" was largely a joke thanks to their spies. Damn near every bartender, cabbie, and hooker was passing intel to the North and because of that we never really did anything that Charlie didn't know about ahead of time. We killed a shit ton of civilians but our bombs rarely killed any VC unless they got drunk and wandered above ground!
As for your "evaluation" of our current service members...stop listening to Michael Moore and go out and actually MEET some of them ya' hippie! Or hipster! Or whatever metrosexual liberals call themselves nowadays!
To be fair, once Nixon got serial and started bombing the North, the VC folded up. They were not a force by the end of the war.
So if the VC had packed it in, then why the fuck did we call it quits and leave? Was it the French who cahsed us out of Vietnam?
"As for your "evaluation" of our current service members...stop listening to Michael Moore and go out and actually MEET some of them ya' hippie! Or hipster! Or whatever metrosexual liberals call themselves nowadays!"
Oh I am not wrong! The people in the military are as stupid as you are. They actually think they are saving America, as evidently you do.
I loathe the left as much as I loathe the right. Michael Moore is a fat load of shit. That is kind of a common feeling here as it is a "libertarian" web site.
So if you hate Moore so much then why is your trolling parroting him word for word?
Most service members don't give a shit about which ever war we're fighting and about half of them are from big cities like New York or Detroit.
Rednecks are in the minority even in the Army. Doesn't mean we don't have a lot, but calling the entire military bible thumping rednecks is LIBERAL trolling and a troll of your rank should know that!
"Thinking that bombs wins wars is EXACTLY why I hate those Air Force jack offs who have yet to give one legit reason as to WHY they shouldn't be folded back into the rest of the military where they belong!"
Tell it to the HALOs, cocksucker. AIR POWER!
You can win some wars with bombs alone (or at least mostly). Others you can't. As they say, "It depends..."
Ok, you're right. And all my time studying this very subject at Air Command and Staff College was wasted.
Try this one for starters:
http://www.amazon.com/Limits-A.....0029059909
You might try reading a little yourself dumbass. First, we used nuclear weapons on Japan. Plan to do that in Libya? Second, we fought the Japanese Army and Navy clear accross the Pacific before isolating the Island and destroying every city on it. Again, do you plan to fire bomb Tripoli?
And last I looked Okinawa is a part of Japan. There was a big battle there. It was in all of the papers. And had we not dropped the atomic bombs, we had a plan called operation olympic to invade the mainland.
Seriously, if you are going to be this fucking stupid, at least try to cut down on the smugness. It is just embarassing.
Hey shit for brains, why aren't you over there leading the ground attack. The idea of war is to kill the "enemy" not get your troops killed. I would never have gotten involved in the bullshit to begin with.
The reason Truman dropped the A bomb was to avert our troops dying like pigs.
If you are not willing to go in on the ground and do what is necessary, don't go to war. The worst thing to do is convince yourself that you can just drop a few neat clean bombs and end the thing.
Is Realist a bot? Or am i just searching for a rational reason for his troll-like stupidity.
Is Realist a bot?
More like a sperg.
Also want to throw this out there - the plan to invade mainland Japan was Operation Downfall. It consisted of two parts. Operation Olympic would have captured the southern third of Honshu. Operation Coronet would have captured the remaining parts of the island.
I'm sorry, John, but you specifically stated "You can't win a war and overthrow a government with bombs alone". The outcome of WWII in the Pacific theater seems to contradict that. It doesn't make one bit of difference what happened in the island fighting prior to the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These events didn't put Japan anywhere near to surrender. Hence the decision to use nuclear weapons. Realist is right on some level, even if he's being a pedantic douche in his responses.
We can argue about whether fire bombing cities would have had the same effect. Point is that all of these things happened under conditions of total war. The Pacific campaign was a much different war from the Libyan...whatever-we're-calling-it. I have no doubt that fire bombing Tripoli or nuking Gaddafi's forces would end the war. But the political fallout would be enormous. It won't happen. So, in this case, ground troops are probably necessary to accomplish anything. But that's not true in general.
I see someone has bought into the long-rebutted-by-reality Douhet theory.
I hate to say this, but the US just may have to send some army units in. Can't go back now.
It's not clear what getting rid of him buys us. Does this look like an improvement?
Even I am at a loss defending this anymore.
Seemingly everyone in the crowd was recording that with their cell phone.
So much for metrosexual lib claims that westernization will make these savages into freedom loving democrats.
Kurtz had a point... Lovely people.
Believe this was option #3 for my prediction of how this whole mess would turn out. http://reason.com/blog/2011/03.....nt_2201710
War is hell.
And hell is for children. Now we tie the child porn thread to this one and complete the circle!
NO!
Hell is OTHER peoples children!
I think partition would be the best thing for Libya. It appears that a majority in Tripoli and some other areas love Qadaffi as much as the people in Benghazi, Misrata and some other parts hate him. The international boundaries in most of Africa were arbitrarily drawn by colonial powers, and do not serve the people there well. Qadaffi steals from the other tribes to give to his tribe - and naturally this breeds loyalty on the one side and rightful resentment on the other.
I don't think we should get involved, but I don't see a problem with selling weapons to those who want to defend themselves from Qadaffi.
I also love how the Europeans and resident Senate idiots John McCain and Lindsey Graham are calling for us to murder Kadafi now. Yeah, that will help things. And check out this picture of zombie McCain in the Telegraph. I love British papers. So much nastier and more interesting than American ones.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....ddafi.html
That pic is fucking hilarious.
When did John McCain officially go insane?
He's not insane. It's not even him; it's his evil twin, who is a sleeper from the Ninja Wing of ACORN. Now it should all make sense to you.
What's wrong with killing Kadaffi? We shouldn't have gone in, but that's probably a better option than sending in the army. A quick and easy 'declare victory and leave' point.
I think if there could have been smarter, more decisive action when Gaddaffi was rocked back on his heels this may have worked to protect people and quicken his fall, but as it is it crossed the line into bungling adventurism a while back.
This weekend Doonesbury had some fun with Obama's foriegn policy:
http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/04/24
History does not look favorably on tyrants who murder their own people-unless they do it in Baharin and Yemen and kill them in acceptably low numbers. History gives such regimes a pass.
Simplistic but pretty funny.
History does not look favorably on tyrants who murder their own people-unless they do it in Baharin and Yemen and kill them in acceptably low numbers. History gives such regimes a pass
Or their communist dictatorships, in which case they get a pass for killing hundreds of millions.
to many leftists, Mao is a hero, although he murdered tens of millions of Chinese people.
still awaiting the drawing of an empty suit...
with an empty helmet adorned with the Nobel Peace Prize on top...
If you are going to fight a war, you owe it to yourself and the people affected by it to end it as quickly as possible even if that means taking very violent action. If you don't have the stomach for that kind of action, you shouldn't get in the war in the first place. It is just cruel to intervene in a war just enough to perpetuate it but not enough to decide it.
John
Where would you place the Kosovo action? Iirc that action was accomplished virtually through air power alone.
In Kosovo we were trying to tear off a piece of the country rather than change the entire government. And yes, we did accomplish that through bombing alone. But how did we do that? We did that by bombing the Serbian infrastructure to such a degree that life got so miserable for the civilian population that they revolted and demanded an end to the war. I think it would have been more humane to the Serbian people to have just invaded Kosovo with ground troops and ended the war rather than bombing power plants and trains and such for 69 days. You could argue that the Kosovo campaign was a terror campaign. Our bombing did very little damage to the Serbian Army. But it did succeed in terrorizing the hell out of the civilian population. It really wasn't one of America's better moments.
And the situation created by our air campaign in Kosovo created an environment that allowed al Qaeda to operate there, gaining recruits and money, prior to 9/11.
We fool ourselves when we believe in the fallacy of the surgical strike and the myth of clean war.
I see your points (I opposed the Kosovo action at the time), but you could also look at the fact that we lost iirc only two US soldiers and that US leaders have a duty to prioritize US lives in such an action...
Either way it seems clear to me that Kosovo is the model for this action.
They do you are correct. But I said this at the time and I will say it again now. If a cause isn't worth your people dying for, how is it worth killing the enemy to accomplish? Serbian lives mean something to.
Look, I am all for killing the enemy and not engaging in a fair fight in war. But there is something unseemly about fighting wars that we freely admit we wouldn't fight if there was any significant loss of US life involved.
Interesting points on both sides!
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, it's because your tactics suck.
Size matters as far as what tactics work. Kosovo is but a tiny fraction of the areas in Libya in question. Much easier for the air only tactics to be successful in Kosovo. Even if you consider all of Serbia, much easier to disrupt that infrastructure compared to the 1000 mile plus stretch of Liyba's coastline.
Why is everyone who talks about Kosovo ignorant of the fact that America/NATO had enough special ops in country to be considered a small army?
Also, we bombed Kosovo and Serbia for 75 days and it still took the iminent threat of ground forces to get capitulation.
Kosovo proved the fallacy of air power as a single, stand-alone action.
There is now a large foreign troop presence "keeping the peace" in Kosovo, MNG. Air power alone wins nothing
I'll believe Obama's fallen prey to Trudeau's special brand of smug SWPL liberalism when Trudeau draws the Pres as an empty suit.
+1,000 Nobel Peace Prizes
When the lapdog bites you, you know you are in trouble.
"Is it too early to declare our intervention in Libya a failure?"
Yes, yes it is.
Are you criticizing Reason? How dare you!!!!
Just because Reason declared healthcare reform dead, no alive but barely, no dead, no alive, no zombied, no driven with a stake to the heart, no doing a Jesus,no...
Do I get to take a double shot out of this?
Just because Reason declared healthcare reform dead, no alive but barely, no dead, no alive, no zombied, no driven with a stake to the heart, no doing a Jesus,no...
Actually that was Sudderman and his expertise is not in weighing political outcomes.
He was not in the chambers of the house or the senate talking to seneters and representatives, so he had to run the simulation of the outcome second hand.
In essence he correctly saw a suicide choice for the Dems. Pass healthcare and loose the house or don't pass it and still have a chance to keep it. Sudderman's mistake was he thought the Dems were rational political actors.
Anyway the health care bill that passed is dead...the question is how much will remain after 2012 and how much will not resemble it at all.
The health care bill effectively died the minute Obama started granting waivers for it. If their plan was so fucking wonderful, then people wouldn't be trying to exempt themselves from it.
Make no mistake: we'll have troops on the ground in Libya before it's over. Obama's promise notwithstanding; after all, this is the same guy who made explicit promises to withdraw from Afghanistan and close Guantanamo, among other things. What's one more military buildup for the Nobel Peace Prize winner?
I wish we'd just learn to accept the fact that not ever country in the world is ready for democracy and work on taking care of our own declining version.
I think it is too soon to say that Tripoli people are loyal to Gaddafi- you have to remember that people in Tripoli have relatives in Benghazi and eastern Libya as well. That said, the problem is not the rebel leadership or even Gaddafi himself but that there is a hidden group in all this that we are not seeing and it is likely that this group will gain control over Libya. Whatever happens and whoever wins, Libya will never again be the peaceful nation it once was, thanks to NATO, Cameron, Sarkozy and Obama
This is another example of why small counties want nuclear weapons. Libya gave up it's nuclear weapons program to appease us.
You can be certain that our actions in Libya are being watched in Iran and everywhere else. They now see what happens when they give up the ultimate defense of small countries against large.
+1
Yes war for oil! Hey Libya, you want us to liberate you? Fine! Then let us get the spoils of war!
What I'm against is pointless wars of liberation where we get nothing in return.
Liberate Libya? Only if they pay us in oil.
http://libertarians4freedom.bl.....if-we.html
"Military Advisors"....isn't that how we got started in Vietnam ?
Nu-uh! JFK was a saint and so we have to pretend that our involvement in Viet-fucking-Nam wasn't his fault!
Camelot!
Tee-hee!
While you were decorating the castle, I was getting tilted from both ends of the jousting field by Arthur and Lancelot!
I always it was "come a lot"
Don't worry your pretty little head. Obama is the smartest, most thoughtfullest and rational president ever.
Let me be clear: Gadhafi must not go.
I think many of the problems we've had in our various wars over the last ten years have had at their heart a common misconception.
In Iraq, the Bush Administration tried to sell the United States and the world on the idea that Iraq was a war between the people of Iraq and Saddam Hussein. To this day, lots of people get upset if you suggest that the Iraqi people didn't want to be bombed, invaded and occupied by a foreign army.
The fact that so many people bought into the Bush Administration's propaganda is what I think many opponents of the war in Libya are reacting to today.
However, Bush's biggest lie about Iraq--that it was really a war that the Iraqi people wanted, and so really a war between the Iraqi people and Saddam Hussein--doesn't have any bearing on Libya whatsoever.
The fact is that the war in Libya really is between the Libyan people and Muammar Gaddafi--for reals.
It isn't a war that the United States can lose--and yet this article is all about the U.S. losing a war that the Libyan rebels continue to fight for themselves.
"Faced with the prospect of Gadhafi hanging on to power, Obama may find himself reconsidering his pledge not to use American ground troops. The only thing presidents dislike more than escalating wars is losing wars."
Slippery slopes are a fallacy, and a sprinkle of self-fulfilling prophecy doesn't make those fallacies any more convincing.
Meanwhile, the rebels winning a meaningful slice of Libya for themselves on a semi-permanent basis, is that presented here as evidence of the rebels losing?
How much territory free of Gaddafi did the Libyan rebels hold before the rebellion?
...or maybe that quote was offered up as evidence to show that the United States is losing?!
I have no idea whether the people of Libya will ultimately win their freedom, but I know this: if they win their freedom, they'll have won it for themselves--just as we won our freedom from England (with a little help from our friends).
Certainly, it isn't up to us here in the U.S. to decide how much sacrifice their freedom is worth!
That was the biggest mistake we made in Iraq. We thought we should be the ones to decide how much Iraqi suffering the Iraqi people's freedom was worth.
We're only responsible for how much we contribute in Libya. How much money we spend. How many troops we put at risk. Looks like we may throw some drones into the fight... Unlike the others, we're not even providing any advisers on the ground!
We decide what we do. France decides what it does. The U.K. does the same. And the future of Libya's rebellion? That should be up to the Libyan rebels... The Rebels should be the ones deciding how much they're willing to sacrifice and for what--and denigrating their accomplishments doesn't change that equation one bit.
I don't want to be responsible for the future of the Libyan people, and the first step in making sure we never become responsible for the future of Libya is to stop assuming responsibility for the future of Libya.
The first step in assuming responsibility for the future of Libya? Is arguing that if we're in for penny, then we're in up to our necks. The first step is arguing that any involvement at all ultimately makes our responsibility for the future of Libya unavoidable.
Part of that was supposed to have a quote attached:
"Apparently no one informed the dictator. "Gadhafi's people are feeling quite confident," one European security official tells Reuters, predicting the civil war will produce a "de facto partition for a long time to come," with Gadhafi retaining control of most of Libya."
Meanwhile, the rebels winning a meaningful slice of Libya for themselves on a semi-permanent basis, is that presented here as evidence of the rebels losing?
How much territory free of Gaddafi did the Libyan rebels hold before the rebellion?
Bush's biggest lie about Iraq--that it was really a war that the Iraqi people wanted, and so really a war between the Iraqi people and Saddam Hussein
The Kurds disagree with you....and the Shia were very happy we got rid of him...their disappointment was that we chose to stay afterward.
Anyway the fact that you got these simple facts wrong pretty much destroys your follow up arguments.
The Kurds were effectively free and functioning as an independent state since just after Gulf War I.
As for the rest of it, if you're suggesting that the Iraqi people are happy about what the U.S. has done in Iraq?
Pu-lease! I don't know what to say other than that we almost universally disparaged throughout the Muslim and Arab worlds for what we did in Iraq.
As for the rest of it, if you're suggesting that the Iraqi people are happy about what the U.S. has done in Iraq?
So you have moved on from making false claims to now setting up strawmen to beat down?
Jesus even Sadr was thanking the US for defeating Suddam....his beef was that the US stayed afterward.
So to recap. Iraqis were happy the US came and got rid of Suddam...then they were unhappy that we stayed.
See how that works?
No need to make up bullshit trumped up claims like "you're suggesting that the Iraqi people are happy about what the U.S. has done"
Cuz from a simple reading of what I wrote one can easily see I did not make that claim.
Yes JC thank you. I remember the Iraqis that cheered in the street that helped pull down the Sadaam statue. Further, Ken, it's not 'denigrating' to the accomplishments of the rebels to point out that they really don't have what it takes to win.
"Yes JC thank you. I remember the Iraqis that cheered in the street that helped pull down the Sadaam statue."
Have you seen the documentary "Control Room"?
Because I suspect there may be a lot about that event that you don't know.
http://articles.latimes.com/20.....na-statue3
Regardless, we should never conflate how much the Iraqi people hated Saddam Hussein with how much they love the United States--seeing as those are two completely different things.
After all, our efforts in Iraq are widely despised by Muslims and Arabs all over the world--and if all you have to show otherwise is some jubilant behavior when a statue was toppled and when Saddam was hanged, then you don't have much.
"Further, Ken, it's not 'denigrating' to the accomplishments of the rebels to point out that they really don't have what it takes to win."
Pointing to the territory they've won for themselves and the battle lines hardening--making their free territory semi-permanent? ...as if that were somehow necessarily a symptom of the rebel's failure?
That's denigrating their accomplishments. They may not win, but I'm not about to pretend that winning some free territory for themselves is a sign of failure.
So the US inspired the statue pull-down. So what? Thousands of Iraquis danced and sang and shouted "We love Bush".
JC is right - if we had left soon thereafter, it would be a different situation. Within 6 months we would have been blamed for running away and leaving the people to a bloodbath. Regardless of what we had done, the US was sure to be blamed.
So why did we support invading Iraq then?
Here's a hint: it was about WMD and links to terrorism.
"WASHINGTON (AP) ? Nearly seven in 10 Americans believe it is likely that ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the Sept. 11 attacks, says a poll out almost two years after the terrorists' strike against this country."
---September 6, 2003
http://www.usatoday.com/news/w.....iraq_x.htm
Remember the bogus WMD labs? Remember the anthrax attack? Remember the lies about yellowcake in Niger?
Nobody wants to think average Americans supported invading and occupying a foreign country, suffering 36,000 odd American casualties and spending more than a trillion dollars--all on a lark.
But if that's what the American people did, then that's we did.
Just because all those links turned out to be bogus doesn't mean we have to lie to ourselves and pretend we supported the invasion of Iraq on humanitarian grounds--or because that's what the Iraqi people wanted us to do.
There's no shame in being fooled. Lying to ourselves about why we supported what we supported because what we believed turned out to be a bunch of bunk?
That's shameful. I'm afraid it's also typical.
I've talked to a lot of dying people. Very few of them had any regrets. We all tend to rationalize the mistakes we've made in the past--especially if our intentions were good.
But if we don't want to make the same mistakes again, we need to take an honest look at ourselves.
The Kurds were effectively free and functioning as an independent state since just after Gulf War I.
I wonder if historians 100 years from now will even make a distinction between the Gulf war and the Iraq war?
I know they make no such distinctions with the 30 years war.
I wonder if Kurds even make that much of a distinction between the two. Certainly from a Kurd living in northern Iraq from 1988 to 2011 it would be hard to divide the two.
Oh, but thanks for proving my point...
I wasn't just making this up, people. There are some today--right here in the United States of America--who still get bent out of shape when someone suggests that the Iraqi people may not have wanted to be bombed, invaded and occupied by a foreign army!
Seriously.
We shouldn't let the fear of becoming propaganda victims ourselves guide our choices about foreign policy though--that would be like voting for Barack Obama just to spite those who voted for George W. Bush.
who still get bent out of shape when someone suggests that the Iraqi people may not have wanted to be bombed, invaded and occupied by a foreign army!
Who are these poeple who get bent out of shape?
The facts remain that there was support from Iraqis to remove Suddam from power.
The support is comparable to the support in Libya by Libyans for the US to remove Kudaffi.
Your claim that there is some difference between the two has been falsified.
Running around building up strawmen and smashing them down only makes you look like a fool.
I didn't say they liked Saddam Hussein. I didn't say they aren't glad he's gone.
I said they weren't happy about being bombed, invaded and occupied by a foreign army.
I said our efforts in Iraq are almost universally disparaged throughout the Arab and Muslims worlds.
The point remains that we superimposed our choices about how much Iraqi suffering getting rid of Saddam Hussein was worth--superimposed our choices on a choice that should have belonged to the Iraqi people.
Telling us that the Libyan people are suffering too much--so their freedom isn't worth it? Is, again, superimposing our choices on other people. If the Libyan rebels didn't think their freedom was worth fighting for, they would presumably stop fighting!
This stuff is Adam Smith 101--we're all better off generally when we take our own best interests to heart. You think bombing, invading, and occupying Iraq was in America's best interest? Argue it from that perspective.
You don't speak for the Iraqi people, and we are widely despised in Iraq for our behavior in Iraq.
That's a lesson for anybody who would disparage the Libyan rebels efforts for being too costly in humanitarian terms as well. You want to argue that it's against America's interest to be involved in Libya? Argue it on that basis.
How much suffering the Libyan people think their freedom is worth should be up to them.
Bullshit
However, Bush's biggest lie about Iraq--that it was really a war that the Iraqi people wanted, and so really a war between the Iraqi people and Saddam Hussein--doesn't have any bearing on Libya whatsoever.
The fact is that the war in Libya really is between the Libyan people and Muammar Gaddafi--for reals.
In what way?
You are conflating what Iraqis got with what the Libyans want.
and then waving your hands around saying that the Iraqi did not ask for liberation and the Libyans are asking for liberation and that is why it will be different this time around.
Any fair assessment would compare what Iraqis wanted (liberation) and what the Libyans want (liberation).
If anything the comparison shows that the Libyans will end up not getting what they want but instead will end up with the same thing the Iraqis got. This is the historic precedent.
"Any fair assessment would compare what Iraqis wanted (liberation) and what the Libyans want (liberation)."
Everybody wants liberation.
I want liberation from Obama--doesn't mean I want a foreign power to come here and depose the bastard!
The Libyan rebels rose up against Gaddafi of their own accord.
The Iraqi people in 2003? Did no such thing.
That's a big difference.
The Libyans rose up against Gaddafi all by themselves--and that still doesn't justify us putting troops on the ground in Libya. Why the hell did we put troops on the ground in Iraq again?
Because the Iraqi people wanted us to?
I don't think so.
The Libyan rebels rose up against Gaddafi of their own accord.
Good now we have a distinction with a difference. Next time say that shit in the first place.
One thing i would like to note on this is that rising up on their own could be a signal that they have a greater will for liberation.
It could also mean they are simply dumber then the Iraqis about their chances of winning.
Considering that the Iraqis did rise up at the end of the Gulf war and got their asses handed to them would indicate at least the Iraqis did have a pretty good history lesson on the subject while Libyans have considerably less experience.
If the Iraqis and the Libyans had equal desire for liberation it is not unreasonable given the Iraqis history on the subject for them to sit it out while the Libyans without that history would choose to fight.
Your initial contention is false. We never went to war in Iraq for the benefit of the Iraqi people. We went to war over WMDs (that everyone believed to exist) and the 'Axis of Evil' / GWOT. Iran, Iraq and NK were demonized for their part in supporting international terrorism (in any form, not just Al Quaeda) and despotism.
The benefit to the Iraqi's was sold as an additional plus, with the belief that establishing democracy in the easiest AoE target would serve as some shining example to the world.
We failed in securing the peace, which fomented the insurrection we ended up fighting for ~7 years.
We should get out of Libya now. The Libyan rebels we are backing include Al Qaeda, Sussunie royalist and the Salafi sect of Islam, which is the Libyan branch of the Wahhabi sect. This bunch does not look pro democracy to me. I question Obama's undo haste in backing these rebels with their dubious backgrounds. Do we have a jihadi in the White House?
There is NO jihad!
Steve Chapman has bet his credibility -- and bet it early -- on America, NATO and the rebelling Libyan people losing this fight to a vicious dictator responsible for widespread slaughter around the globe and across his own country.
Okay, Chapman. You've placed your chips on the table. Let's see if you get them back after the flop, the turn, and the river. Let's see if Qaddaffi launches a winning assault on Bengazi. Let's see if he takes back Misrata. Let's see if his late 20th-century vintage soviet armor and artillery can hold out indefinitely against the bleeding edge in aerial warfare in a parched open desert environment. Let's see if the rebels stay as weak and disorganized as they are today once they come under the tutelage of some of the world's most sophisticated military advisers.
If you're gonna bet on us losing, you have to bet early, because time is not on Qaddaffi's side. And if you lose this bet, you're going to have to draw way deep into your vast reservoir of "motivated reasoning" to tarnish the victory.
I'm not sure he's going that far.
But there does seem to be an uninterrupted streak of foreboding inevitability throughout this piece that end up looking a lot like so many slippery slopes.
There's a hint that the rebels are on a slippery slope they can't win, but the slippery slope about the inevitability of the U.S.'s increased involvement seems clearer in this piece to me.
A lot of people seem to be assuming this trope is true--despite all evidence to the contrary. Our allies are sending in advisers and we're not? Somehow that isn't evidence that we're resisting the urge to increase our involvement--that's evidence that we're under pressure to commit troops on the ground too?
I understand any glass can be seen as half-empty, but evidence of resisting the urge to increase our involvement is evidence that we're resisting the urge to increase our involvement.
Weren't you the same asshole telling us this war would last a few days?
and that we would not have to put Americans on the ground to win it?
I think you're confusing me with somebody who exists only inside your fetid brain.
I think you're confusing me with somebody who exists only inside your fetid brain.
Liar liar pants on fire:
Danny|3.7.11 @ 1:12PM|#
I think this is a good and opportune time to make an object lesson of Kaddafi. All indications are that after a few strikes on his facilities from a standoff distance, his own people will take care of the rest with great ease. You may differ in the tactical evaluation. But no rule of decency is broken by bringing the rain down on Kaddafi's head immediately.
http://reason.com/blog/2011/03.....tcontainer
I am pretty sure there are more precise quotes from you but this one suffices.
Well, after I wrote that, Obama decided to withdraw U.S. strike aircraft from the force, for whatever mystifying reason. My analysis remains accurate as a historical fact. Heavy bombers and other standoff bombardment platforms could have sunk Qaddaffi in the early stages of the uprising. NATO and the U.S., unfortunately, decided to fight with one arm behind their backs.
I never said the war would last "a few days." I still maintain it can be won without our ground forces. I know "Very Serious People" insist that ground forces are a sin qua non of regime change, but I reject that assumption.
JC 1000 Danny 0.
Time may not be on the K-man's side.
I have very little faith, though of the maintenance of rebel unity if/when is is actually deposed (either from power or from life) and the unifying bete noire is eliminated.
I further have no faith in the rebels forgoing a propensity to engage in some serious reprisials against former supporters of the Q-man's regime (either military or civilian) if the rebels were to establish control in the west, nor in the G-man's former hommies going underground and insurgent as a pre-emptive spoiler to those reprisals.
Bleh, too coy by half. insert or uninsert negatives as appropriate, the gist should be apparent.
not looking so good for you danny boy is it... parched open desert environment what a folish thing to say these people know and survive the desert it there home..DUH..didn't you learn anything from Vietnam YOU can't win a war with an Air force alone THE point really is we attacked a nation who was not a threat nor did they attack us. Bush pulled this lions teeth. who are these rebels anyway? they are very bad people from a different tribe then the Gov't.
Oldie but goodie:
Michael Scheuer slams CNN hosts for Obama-Libya coverage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMOtC9zGQHI
I have yet to read an assessment of what the rebel numbers and assets are, and what Ghadafi has. Has anyone seen such an analysis?
Per this link from strategy page: http://www.strategypage.com/qn.....10425.aspx comes the following quote from April 25,
Your guess is as good as mine as to its accuracy. The rebels have more? Fewer? I can't find any OOBs for either side either.
The rebel numbers are no doubt pretty fluid. All indications are that these guys are largely former civilians with a few battle-hardened al-Qaeda members serving as advisors to keep some semblance of military order.
The only thing NATO's meddling has really provided at this point is a rough stalemate. Ghaddafi's forces are a lot more disciplined, and in a one-on-one fight, would eventually win out over the largely ad hoc rebel forces. Especially since those morons tend to waste their ammo in a lot of "celebratory gunfire."
Gaddafi is regarded as a good guy by much of Africa, because he stood up to the neoliberals and the World Bank and helped Africa create infrastructure for telecommunications not controlled by Europe. Actually, he probably IS better than what will come after him, more Western puppets. The Libyan invasion is just another war crime like Iraq, and for the same reasons.
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BUT will you truthfully tell us who these people are YOu call freedom fighters?? I hear stories that they are mainly form other tribes and are just as nasty as he is maybe more so..
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