Esquire Gives Ron Paul Some Guarded Love, But Still Love
In a very well done long feature story on Ron Paul by John Richardson, Esquire close-focuses in its May issue on the recent CPAC gathering, where Paul won the straw poll of young conservative-ish activists for the second year in a row, to paint a full and compelling picture of the controversial libertarian Republican congressmen, and likely 2012 presidential candidate.
Though Esquire has loved Ron Paul for a long time, in the end the story concludes, rather sadly, that despite his bright and spiritual political idealism, that a Ron Paul world would alas be one with lots of folk starving in the streets. (That's what libertarianism is all about: the philosophy of street starvation, good and hard. This is a widely believed bit of American lore, despite "keeping the poor from starving" being about the least of actual government's concerns.)
Despite how much you might think a mainstream men's mag would have to hate on someone who they believe that of, they manage to be elegaically kind throughout the piece.
It is worth noting, as I have before, that mags like Esquire are almost genetically inclined to be very respectful of every politician they look at closely. Still, that Ron Paul can be Ron Paul and still get this kind of press means we are living in a very different America than we were three years ago.
Random highlights or points of interest. (Note the online version is not the complete story, lacking among other things the "shame it would all lead to starving in the street" conclusion):
See, it's not about him. Ron Paul doesn't think that way. It's about this neat idea, principles versus incrementalism. That's why he's taken more lonely stands than any other politician in American history: against the Iraq war even though he's a Republican, against the Defense of Marriage Act even though he's a conservative Christian, against farm subsidies even though he represents a rural district, against the Texas Medical Center even though he's from Texas — the list goes on and on. He refused to award congressional medals to Rosa Parks, Ronald Reagan, the Pope, and Mother Teresa. After Hurricane Katrina, he voted against sending federal help to Louisiana.
"Once you say, 'Well, you know, we live in the real world and sometimes you have to give in a little bit,' then you're never yourself, you're never your own person, and they'll badger you to death. So it's much easier for me to follow a set of principles than fussin' and fumin' on knowing exactly when you're supposed to throw in the towel."….
The kids love him:
To the people who say this is wildly impractical, that the whole point of democracy is to make compromises, that you can measure his irrelevance in his long record of lonely votes, the congressman has an irrefutable answer. "It depends on how you measure effectiveness. If you want to pass a law just to say you can pass a law and say, 'I passed ten bills last year,' that's one way to measure effectiveness. The other way is to establish a record and send the message and get people to join you and maybe change people's thinking in the long term. I would say I'm more long term. The next election has never been of much interest to me — it was the next generation that I cared about."
The next generation is on the other side of the blue curtain [cheering for him at CPAC]. RON PAUL! RON PAUL! RON PAUL!…….
His relevance is undeniable:
The Republican leaders who are putting on this show have been as startled as the rest of the country at the sudden potency of once marginal ideas. But to the kids, it's obvious. This is Ron Paul's moment. He's been warning for forty years that easy money would lead to economic collapse, then easy money led to economic collapse. He warned that the Iraq war would be an expensive and bloody mistake, and the Iraq war was an expensive and bloody mistake. He spent forty years asking Congress to follow a strict interpretation of the Constitution and investigate the Federal Reserve, and now there's a powerful freshman class of Republicans pushing a strict interpretation of the Constitution and an investigation of the Federal Reserve. In 2009, he slipped an amendment into the Wall Street — reform legislation that forced the Federal Reserve to release the details of thousands of secret loans it made during the 2008 financial crisis — the Korea Development Bank? Caterpillar? — and suddenly polls started showing that Americans disliked the Fed even more than the IRS. …..He's been called the "Tea Party's brain," and his son Rand is called the "senator from the Tea Party," and all day long the speakers seemed to have been participating in a Ron Paul soundalike competition…..To a movement that fetishizes the Founders' act of rebellion over a tea tax, Ron Paul is the founding father.
He's inspiring and all, but he would strike a blow at American greatness!
Words that other politicians used like screeches of chimpanzee code, Paul actually meant and could explain so that everything from the economic collapse to marijuana legalization to terrorism actually connected and made sense. Like the words on everyone's lips these days, small government. The way Ron Paul explains it, the U. S. Constitution was all about setting up a balance of powers in order to prevent a recurrence of government tyranny, a purpose emphasized by the Bill of Rights. The underlying principle was freedom. But there was a birth defect, in Paul's view, and that was Alexander Hamilton's success at pushing the other Founders down the path of centralized federal control. He doesn't care that it was a powerful American government, based in Washington and willing to invest in its people, that ultimately made the United States into the world-historic power that it is today, with a huge economy and a vast middle class. Nor does he care that it was that strong central government that ensured the survival of the young country, which was on the brink of failure without it. Nor does he care that the U. S. Constitution actually came into existence to take power away from the states, leaving them but the scraps in the vestigial Tenth Amendment. And he doesn't care that it was actually the sainted Jefferson who executed the Louisiana Purchase (unconstitutional in Paul's view), which doubled the size of the country. If we had stuck to what Congressman Paul views as our founding principles, we would have undoubtedly been a smaller and poorer and less consequential country, but also purer and freer and more peaceful. It's a trade he is willing to make.
The heart of why this is the Ron Paul Revolutionary Moment:
Any observer of the news can see how many of Paul's preoccupations have become central themes to the public debate — the Jeffersonian view of the Constitution, the revisionist claim that liberals made the Depression worse, the hostility toward bankers awkwardly stitched to a celebration of capitalism, the idea that there is something both impractical and immoral about taxing the "producers" — impractical because it only stifles them, and immoral because it is theft. The government has no legitimate claim on any citizen's money.
Common as these tropes have become, these are truly revolutionary ideas, which have taken root so firmly that it has become essential conservative thought that any taxation is theft, and that any spending of the public coin is socialism.
The difference is that a lot of conservatives just say this stuff without meaning it. It was conservatives, after all, who said that you can have small government along with two wars and seven hundred overseas military bases. But Ron Paul goes the other way. Philosophical and systematic and pure in a way that young people may be best qualified to understand, he lays bare the contradictions. That is the reason his ideas have spread like hidden veins throughout our culture, the reason he has become such a stunning challenge to the existing order. He means the words that everyone else just uses. He's flinty as a Founder and solid as the gold standard — not just the messenger but also the message.
This is how one of his CPAC fans puts it: "He makes you study economics, history, philosophy — when that light goes off, it lights up everything."
I wrote a Reason cover story at the beginnings of the modern Ron Paul movement back in February 2008.
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"That's what libertarianism is all about: the philosophy of street starvation, good and hard"
It's not that libertarianism is all about people starving, it is just that for libertarians making people help starving people is more morally outrageous than starving people...
It's not that libertarianism is all about people starving, it is just that for libertarians making people help people starving is more morally outrageous than people starving...
p-p-p People helping people.... HOLY Shirts and pants!
No room for you to talk with your liberal-progressive ObamaBushPig idols bloodying up the world in the name of peace and oil.
Boy you have to love the reasoning here.
You're being silly again.
the implication you missed is about R Paul....
I yawn in your general direction.
No room for you to talk with your libertarian-conservative BarrBushPig cozying up to third world dictators.
See how dumb you are? I guess being dumb though you might not.
o come on now, they're not mine. You "though".
'Making' people 'help' other people is where libertarians punch out indeed.
But libertarians also realize the 'makers' tend to 'make' other people help them when such power is accorded. I mean c'mon MNG. Who has Hillary Clinton commandeered society to 'help' more than a certain Hillary Clinton? Gimme a break.
That's a good point, I agree. Libertarians who are libertarians because they are worried that granting some people the power to make other people help yet another group of people will empower the first group to aggrandize themselves are thoughtful, interesting libertarians.
Libertarians who think though that it is actually more morally objectionable to make people help people starving than people starving though, not so much.
What if I actually am just morally neutral on starving people? I mean, I don't wish them ill, and I wouldn't do anything to help them into starvation, but I really don't care if they do starve, either. Unless they are my friends or family, I just don't give a damn one way or the other.
"but I really don't care if they do starve, either. Unless they are my friends or family, I just don't give a damn one way or the other."
Thanks for establishing my 5:54 post's point so quickly!
Which I also responded to. I'm sure you find my stance morally repugnant, and that's fine. I also happen to passionately hate phillipinas, and if I was in charge of the world-state, I would brutally murder them all (long story).
Point being, if you don't believe in freedom for people to have attitudes and actions which you may strongly disagree with, then you actually only believe in conditional freedom, otherwise known as fractional slavery. "You are free as long as you behave in the manner which I find morally correct."
I believe in freedom for people with attitudes and actions I disagree with. Heck, even ultra-conservatives believe this on some issues. On the other hand there are moral issues where you would not allow people freedom (the freedom to trespass, or kill, etc). So cut that crap man.
We should confine this to the thread below, I think, but I would say in passing, trespassing is not a "moral" issue, because no force is involved until someone invokes it by making the choice to trespass. Since we're talking about gov't charity here, the choice is not available: you could choose not to trespass, but I cannot choose not to contribute to gov't charity.
You don't think it is morally wrong to trespass? I bet you do.
Others think it is morally wrong not to help those less fortunate.
This is true, but you don't seem to want to debate whether either of those positions is acceptable, since up-thread you dismissed those who disagree with the latter as uninteresting and thoughtless. 'Others think it is' is not an argument.
I think people can be compelled to do things when that would lead to an overall maximization of human welfare. What other people think is not determinative of much of anything.
My point was that libertarians think, using different moral criteria, that it is ok to use force against those who violate property rights just as others think it is ok to use force in different circumstances (under different moral criteria).
But you think that because they disagree with your assessment of what is moral, they are both thoughtless and uninteresting?
Where are you getting this "thoughtless and uninteresting" thing from? I didn't say that here at all.
And apparently deserving of going to jail.
That's the fundamental difference between your moral code and mine. If you disagree with mine, whatever. If I dare disagree with yours, you advocate, through your vote, that I be imprisoned.
I think people can be compelled to do things when that would lead to an overall maximization of human welfare.
Things like "donate" all of their property to the collective farm and going to work there?
What level of force is appropriate to use against those that don't want to maximize human welfare?
And who gets to define what constitutes "maximizing human welfare"?
MNG, I think you like the government to take care of starving people because you are to lazy or cheap to help them yourself. I'm a libertarian, and I help feed the homeless and send money to worthy causes. I don't have to go very far to find homeless people that don't get a dime from the government. I know many people that help out people in need. I would much rather give my money and time directly than have the government with their waste and corruption make their sad attempts. Through the government the money usually gets in the wrong hands. By the way 43% of the population gets some sort of welfare from the government. Something is wrong with this kind of number.
It is morally wrong to violate others' right to life, liberty, or property. Pretty much covers the "trespass" and "kill" strawmen.
I also happen to passionately hate phillipinas, and if I was in charge of the world-state, I would brutally murder them all (long story).
If I was in charge of the world-state, I would have a harem of filipinas to fuck. They would be well-fed, of course, because I'm a compassionate guy and don't like people starving in the street. =)
Seriously, filipinas tend to be hot babes.
Thanks for establishing my 5:54 post's point so quickly!
Well, no, EVERYONE is indifferent to a point. I seriously doubt you turn your entire paycheck over to famine relief organizations and live off scraps scrounged from dumpsters. At some point everyone's revealed preference is, "Fuck it, I'm gonna spend some money on my desires even if that means some stranger far away starves."
And, point in fact, those liberals who spew the notion that they are the most compassionate ones are, statistically, LESS likely to voluntarily give money to charity.
So, only if your implied point is that liberals are bigger hypocrites about being self-interested than others, and such hypocrisy is moral, was your 5:54 point proven.
Hey, those hungry people over there need some help. So gimme money.
Hey, that guy over there says that dirt over there is his and this other guy is walking on it. So gimme money to pay someone to throw the second guy off it.
Can you guarantee that once granted, this power won't be used one day to enlarge itself, by means of itself?
I don't think so.
Hey, Anarchist has stuff we want and that's not fair! Let's kill him and take it.
Good luck.
We like our odds.
Mr. Ron Paul for 2012 Republican Nom and President.
-Strengthen our USD
-Balance the Budget
-No Mandated Healthcare
-Creates MANY JOBS
-New Crop Industries
-Free Market
-Very Pro Life
-No Bailout
-No Patriot Act
-Stays out of foreign DOMESTIC AFFAIRS, but contract/trade with all
-No Unjustified War with no objectives
-Brings our Troops Home after over 10 YEARS OF FIGHTING!!!!
Please, let's bring America's Troops home. They deserve it. We could have fought 2 WWII in this time.
Leave the Middle East, and all other Nations that are agreed to be sovereign, ALONE with regard to DOMESTIC AFFAIRS.
American Lives are NOT toys.
Bring our Troops Home
Mr. Ron Paul 2012
No, libertarianism says that people who want to make others help starving people should just help the starving people themselves. Cut out the middleman!
If most people want to help starving people, then government forcing them to is unnecessary.
If most people don't want to help starving people, then government forcing them to is undemocratic.
I've long thought that at the heart of much libertarianism is the freedom to be an uncaring, selfish asshole.
"If most people want to help starving people, then government forcing them to is unnecessary."
Citation needed.
In small part, that's true. Freedom means the freedom to be morally objectionable to others, the freedom to fail, the freedom to be an asshole (short of aggression).
If you don't believe people should be free to be selfish, that's fine, but just admit that you only believe in freedom that conforms to your particular worldview of right and wrong.
For example, a conservative might find it horrible and objectionable that two men want to have sex and get married. You may not personally find that horrible. What makes your horror at something more legitimate than their horror? The only consistent answer, IMO, is not to force anyone to behave in any fashion dictated by the moral code of others.
"The only consistent answer, IMO, is not to force anyone to behave in any fashion dictated by the moral code of others."
So you wouldn't force me to not hang out on land you call yours? Oh you would. But why force me to behave in a fashion dictated by the moral code of others?
In other words, get off your high horse. Libertarians believe in forcing their morality on others too in many occasions, it's just that morality is different.
force me to not
The emboldened word makes all the difference.
Yeah, yeah, because your force is only a magical defensive force, because everyone knows walking along a strip of dirt someone else calls theirs is an act of 'aggression.'
Everyone believes that there are things that justify force to be used against others. Libertarians would use force to fight trespass and fraud for example. The debate is over what justifies the use of force. For libertarians for example violations of property rights justify the use of force. For others utilitarian concerns may suggest other justifications for it.
The stark difference is that libertarianism limits the "acta coercenda" to actual acts, rather than the absence of acts such as "failing to provide health care". Entering someone's property is a positive act.
And of course, the force and the threat of force itself must be part of the utilitarian calculation. You can't just say any act with negative utility must be coerced against.
You could just as soon say claiming a piece of land as "yours" is the positive act. Choosing to ignore your claim is not.
The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying This is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not anyone have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows, "Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody."
The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying This is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not anyone have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows, "Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody."
Are you seriously claiming that destroying all private property rights will lead to prosperity and less human misery?
The socialist groupthink is strong in you.
No, I was having a little fun there quoting Rousseau. As I said to Tulpa I actually think property systems foster utility. My beef is not with them or libertarians who think likewise as much as property rights fetishists such as yourself who would place property rights above or apart from their consequences for the welfare of actual human beings.
would place property rights above or apart from their consequences for the welfare of actual human beings.
Or, you could think that abbrogating property rights will lead to worse outcomes in the long term for human beings.
It might sound like a good idea now to take from the rich and give to the poor, but once you cross that line, government never gives back the power, and it eventually is abused to take from the less powerful and give to the more powerful.
For instance, see eminent domain. Also, medicare and sociel security have effectively become wealth redistribution scheme that take from younger, poorer voters, and give to older, richer ones. And why can't they be cut? Because the elderly have more political power than the young.
No matter what scheme you come up with to redistribute wealth, it will eventually EVOLVE into something that benefits the more powerful at the expense of the less. Even if you start off with the best of intentions.
Funny that someone who invokes the will of the community in every other instance suddenly treats property rights defined according to community norms as a bare assertion.
While it's not possible to justify real property rights without assuming some seriously contrived first principles, it's hard to argue that the concept isn't a utile one for the promotion of prosperity and societal stability.
I agree that property rights systems have amazing utilitarian value Tulpa. As I said at the beginning my beef is with someone who says that even in the rare or even hypothetical circumstances in which adherence to property rights leads to human suffering we must stick to the property rights.
There are implied easements for shipwreck survivors, downed airplane pilots, and the like who have no choice about entering the property, or would be in imminent danger of death if they kept off the property. Such circumstances are exceedingly rare, so a utilitarian libertarianism is much less vulnerable to slippery slope attacks than natural law libertarianism.
"Such circumstances are exceedingly rare, so a utilitarian libertarianism is much less vulnerable to slippery slope attacks than natural law libertarianism."
Tru dat. As I said, I don't have much beef with utilitarian libertarianism, it's the deontological, natural law ones I'm teasing.
"As I said at the beginning my beef is with someone who says that even in the rare or even hypothetical circumstances in which adherence to property rights leads to human suffering we must stick to the property rights."
You wasting time bickering with libertarians on the Internet leads to human suffering. Right now there are millions, billions of people you could help by, for example, making money you could donate to charities. No one here is likely to change their opinion thanks to you, so don't say that you do this to spread the good word of government-enforced altruism. You prioritize the enjoyment you get out of arguing with selfish anarcho-capitalists over filling the bellies of starving people.
Congratulations, there's a little libertarian inside you!
This is a very silly but common retort to utilitarianism as well. First its a pretty big fallacy to think that because an adherent of a moral theory doesn't follow it to the letter that this proves the falsity of the theory.
Secondly, as Christians note, it may very well be that a true moral ideal is one that no human being can live up to. Why would that be so shocking? It's meant to challenge.
Third, utilitarianism is about working. So it takes into account that humans are not robots toiling incessantly on nothing but welfare maximization. Such humans would, given the realities of human nature, go mad quickly and human welfare would decrease (from the madness and from the lost maximization that could have occurred if the person had paced themselves and stayed in the game).
So nice try 🙂
"First its a pretty big fallacy to think that because an adherent of a moral theory doesn't follow it to the letter that this proves the falsity of the theory."
It shows that you don't want to follow a certain ethical system but you want to use a violence monopoly to force others to. That's called hypocrisy.
"Secondly, as Christians note, it may very well be that a true moral ideal is one that no human being can live up to. Why would that be so shocking? It's meant to challenge."
According to you, it's not meant to challenge, it's meant to be forced down our throats using threats of violence.
"Such humans would, given the realities of human nature, go mad quickly and human welfare would decrease (from the madness and from the lost maximization that could have occurred if the person had paced themselves and stayed in the game)."
Are you telling me that you would go mad from not posting on Hit & Run and in other ways waste time on slightly enjoyable things and that the utility that would be lost that way would not be outweighted by the lives of the people you could save from a slow, painful death? Yeah, OK, whatever. I don't think you really believe that.
Also, I don't think I "invoke the will of the community" to justify things. In a democracy I do believe in the value of letting majorities rule themselves as they see fit, but I think minority protections are important. I judge all of this by the utilitarian calculus of whether actions or policies lead to the maximization of total human welfare. That's quite different than "the will of the community."
What is human welfare? Why do the things that make up human welfare have value? What are the relative values of these things? Why is it moral to maximise human welfare? What, exactly, makes utilitarianism superior to other moral systems?
I think people can be compelled to do things when that would lead to an overall maximization of human welfare.
Salvation of souls for eternity requires adherence to church and faith, therefore no other authority or belief system should be allowed, in order to clearly protect essential public welfare.
It's the difference between negative rights and positive rights. If I own something, then I get to say how it's used and by whom. You can always choose to not walk over my land, so your analogy is incorrect; no one has forced you into that situation. You choose to engage that situation by walking onto my land.
By contrast, I have no option whatsoever about contributing my taxes for your particular moral crusades. If I do not contribute, men with guns will pay me a visit. You are completely ignorning the variable of choice in this instance.
To say that you "own" something is just to say that the correct moral position is that you should have sway over it. Own connotes legitimacy or moral correctness.
So you are fine with using force to fight what you see as violations of your moral views about who should get to do what with property. Just like conservatives are fine with using force to fight what they see as violations of their moral views of who gets to sleep with each other.
Ownership as established by a voluntary transaction between the previous owner and current owner is not a moral position, it is a position of fact, much as a cat having four legs is not a moral belief, but rather a statement of fact.
The only glimmer I could see in your argument, is if you were willing to go back to the 1600s, and claim that since the original whites who took the land to begin with did not do so in a legitimate fashion, then none of the transactions that have taken place for the transference of said property since that time (referring to real estate) are legitimate.
I think that's an interesting argument to have, and I don't have a completely satisfactory answer to it. The utilitarian would say that since there's no conceivable way to make the original situation right, we might as well go with what we've got. But I hate utilitarian arguments, because they can be used to justify literally anything, including the Holocaust. I'm still trying to form a non-utilitarian argument about this issue.
"Ownership as established by a voluntary transaction between the previous owner and current owner is not a moral position, it is a position of fact, much as a cat having four legs is not a moral belief, but rather a statement of fact."
That's absurd. If I take something from you that is also a fact, as much as a cat having four legs. But I bet you think that is wrong. However, if I come to the same property from you by voluntary trade you now think it is right. This clearly shows your view of property is based in morality. Otherwise you are talking about mere possession.
No, because force has become involved if you take something which is mine, without permission. That invalidates your entire line of reasoning. I suppose there are some masochists who would make a utilitarian argument that they enjoy being robbed, but I sincerely doubt you'll ever be able to find even one such person. If said person doesn't exist anywhere in a society, then I'd say that's a non sequiter.
Er, that is my whole point. You think the permission is morally relevant. Possession via permission=morally ok, without=not morally ok. Morality is built into the concept of property and, of course, into ideas of how it is 'violated'.
So, you think possession via force is wrong and you are willing to use force to combat it. Likewise conservatives think sex between two men is wrong and are willing to use force to combat it. You can't say "oh but in one case there is consent" because for the latter group consent doesn't make things morally ok. Different criteria is used in judging what wrong acts are deserving of having force applied againt them, but both the libertarian and the conservative (and the liberal) have some moral wrongs they are willing to 'right' via force.
But I hate utilitarian arguments, because they can be used to justify literally anything, including the Holocaust.
Well, utilitarianism has its own "first principles" built in the utility function. Yes, some utility functions would justify the Holocaust, but the point is you don't have to choose those. Yes, this means there is ambiguity, but that's life. At least utilitarians acknowledge (or should acknowledge) this ambiguity, unlike natural lawyers who pretend their first principles are the only valid ones.
The other nice thing about utilitarianism is that contrived examples can be ignored since their probability is essentially zero and thus have no effect on the utility function.
Its nice to hear someone here say that. Utilitarians have to build the probability of consequences into the calculus.
The Holocaust would be justified in a libertarian calculus only if there some high probablity that it would have prevented something far worse than the Holocaust. Both the probability and the later harm would have to be waaaay up there to justify that.
I didn't say it was likely, I said it was possible. The mere fact that it is in any way, shape, or form, even conceivable, makes it repugnant to me (IMO). If someone did make the case, then a dedicated utilitarian would then pretty much have to sign off on being OK with genocide. Then you get into the issue of who's crunching the numbers, and can you trust their calculus, etc.
Natural law has the disadvantage of being quasi-mystical in origin (which is esp. troubling for an athiest like myself), but it has the advantage of being airtight (in theory) against such miscalculations.
I would find the Holocaust a lot less repugnant if, say, it led to something far worse being adverted. For example, if killing six million humans were the only way to avert the killing of seven million people, then yes, I think it would be horrific not to kill the six million.
Mind you that utilitarianism aims to be objective: if someone wrongly calculates that something awful was necessary to avert a worse consequence then they have in fact not done the morally correct thing...
In this sense they are in a similar boat to deontological moral theories because in any of them if you get the application of the criteria wrong and act wrongly you are, well, in the wrong. It's not a problem with the criteria itself necessarily.
Understood, but you bring me back to the position of natural rights being more "airtight" against abuse in that manner (making this, ironically, a somewhat utilitarian argument). I'd say it's a lot more likely for someone to be wrong in their predictions that 7 mil. are about to die unless we murder these 6 mil. first, than for me to be wrong in the maxim of "don't use force against people against their will".
We also have a difference, in that I would not kill the 6 mil. to save the 7. Taking a life unless you are in direct danger, or in retribution for another life taken (i.e. your uncle kills your aunt in a rage, admits to it, I'm alright with the death penalty in that case, though I'm open to arguments against it), is wrong, period.
We had this discussion in another thread a few months ago; would you kill a train conductor to save some kids on the train tracks (or something absurd like that). The kids being killed are not your doing; the conductor being killed is. Therefore you are wrong. Sacrificing the few to save the many is flawed, because I don't think you can so easily dismiss the necessity of having fallible, greedy, lustful, humans making the calculations about what sacrifice is appropriate, etc. If utilitarianism can only work in a world of perfect people, then I daresay it should be thrown out as a viable philosophy.
if killing six million humans were the only way to avert the killing of seven million people, then yes, I think it would be horrific not to kill the six million.
(*barf*)
I know Ozymandias is your favorite Watchman, but that's one of those zero probability contrivances that utilitarianism is lucky to avoid.
I actually like Ozy because I love the idea of a guy whose 'super-power' is to reach the pinnacle of human capabilities. I defended him in a lot of threads because I think Moore was trying to create a moral dilemma worth discussing rather than have Ozy be a simplistic 'bad guy.' Rosarch was supposed to be just as extreme of a guy for Moore.
Agree about Moore's intention, but this is what I believe is the operative clue that he sides against Ozy: he lies at a key moment in the story (in the comic; I don't remember if it was in the movie), when Ror. doesn't engage in any false behaviors which contradict his moral code the entire time (making him something like an anarchist, which Moore is).
He tells Nighowl that his servants "got drunk" and accidentally killed themselves. I think if his position was actually morally sound, he wouldn't have lied about that, after the fact, when it was too late to stop it or do anything about it anyway. I think Moore is smart enough, and careful enough, that he wouldn't have placed that casual, unnecessary lie in there without it being significant.
he lies at a key moment in the story (in the comic; I don't remember if it was in the movie)
If you're talking about the "don't bite" moment, that was in the movie too.
I don't remember the words "don't bite"; I'm talking about after he poisons his servants, then opens the dome to make it look like a drunken accident, at the very end. By the time he lies about having murdered them, the cataclysm was already too late to stop, so it showed a troubled conscience (IMO), and contrasted him with Rorschach, who was unrelenting in the application of his personal philosophy but never deceitful.
I was talking about the assassination attempt in Ozy's office earlier in the film.
Interesting, but I don't think truthfulness is a big part of Ozy's moral code (his entire scheme is a massive lie), therefore in doing so I'm not sure he contradicts his beliefs.
The Holocaust would be justified in a libertarian calculus only if there some high probablity that it would have prevented something far worse than the Holocaust.
Like one of the Jewish kids would have grown up to be Hitler.
Utilitarianism is the most bullshit rationalization for action known to man, because the ends of any act cannot be known with certainty. Therefore the only things that be justified are means. And whether you believe that killing 6 million people can save 7 million, the fact of the matter is that you're willingly murdering 6 million people with uncertain consequences. Which is unjustifiable by any definition of the word.
"Utilitarianism is the most bullshit rationalization for action known to man, because the ends of any act cannot be known with certainty."
This is a common but imo less than impressive response to utilitarianism around these parts. Consider what you are saying: utlitarianism is wrong because people might guess what the consequences of actions are wrongly. But as I said probability is a critical part of the calculus.
You could condemn any moral theory that its adherents wrongly apply. For example Jim above says it is wrong to take a life except in self defense. Well a person can wrongly believe that a situation is one of self defense, etc. That doesn't undercut the argument that it is wrong to take a life except in self defense. Likewise that someone may be wrong about what actually maximizes welfare doesn't undercut the argument that the maximization of welfare is the best criteria for moral choice.
No. Humans are notoriously awful at foreseeing the consequences of actions.
A lack of cognitive ability on your part does not imply a lack of justification on my part.
That's like the wikitrolls who slap a [citation needed] on the statement that cats are quadripeds.
"If most people want to help starving people, then government forcing them to is unnecessary."
Dude, this is hardly self-evident. For generations this nation had people who wanted to help people starving and did not make anyone else help. The polity took a long look at that and decided it wasn't getting the job done and tried forcing everyone to help.
Who is "the polity"?
The majority of voters who pick our representatives.
Sheesh, and you complain about "A lack of cognitive ability on your part does not imply a lack of justification on my part"
You knew what I was saying.
51% of the people vote to rape MNG, then shoot him in the face. This is now a correct and legitimate decision because it was undertaken by the representatives as chosen by a majority of voters.
I'm sure you can pick out the flaw in this reasoning.
1% of people vote that they should be able to rape Jim and shoot him in the face. Don't argue that 99% voted to not allow it, we won't have majorities trampling minority rights around here.
Which is precisely why I'm an anarchist. Nobody should ever be able to vote on how to treat anyone else against their will, ever.
Nobody should ever be able to vote on how to treat anyone else against their will, ever.
So you'd rather live under the Mafia than a democratic government?
In short, yes. I doubt any mafia could ever rival the scale, reach, and power of a government, such as that of the US. However, since a mafia would be hard-pressed to exist in an anarcho-capitalist structure, I doubt it would be a concern.
When vice isn't illegal, it's hard to turn a profit from trafficking in vice. There's always protection rackets, but I believe the drugs, prostitution, and gambling bring in way more money (combined) than shake-downs. I doubt they could exist if protection was literally the only thing they could offer. And even then, a well-armed person stands a reasonable chance of organizing his fellows to resist such a scheme on a local level, or one could pay a PDA to step in.
So PDAs can exist when all they offer is protection, but the Mafia can't...even though the Mafia has significantly more freedom of action than a PDA that doesn't initiate force.
That's some spicy question-begging there.
The mafia would (presumably; see my rebuttal of the "economic masochist who enjoys being robbed" scenerio above) be operating in a hostile environment. PDAs would be voluntarily sought out by the community, making their existence significantly easier than an organization everyone hates.
Even in their absence, without the money from dealing in vice, and without restrictions on weapons ownership, I doubt a mafia would find an easy time of it shaking down me, or any of the people I know were we to agree to band together (from Texas, and yes, true to stereotype, we have a shit load of guns).
Everyone doesn't hate the mafia even in the current society. They make sure that influential people have reason not to hate them, and everyone else has reason to fear them.
Ah, but how are people "influential"? Mostly through their ability to coercively use gov't? Without that ability, it won't matter what these formerly "influential" people think.
And as to the others fearing them, again, see my posts about PDAs or self-organized defense associations. I have a lot of guns, I spent my time in the military fighting scarier people than goombas, and I do not fear them. I know many people who are the same.
If not, they can always hire the PDAs (which, if mafia exists solely through protection rackets, then PDAs must also exist, using your logic from above).
I have a lot of guns, I spent my time in the military fighting scarier people than goombas, and I do not fear them.
But you were fighting those scary people with a massive government war machine backing you up, watching your flank, and supplying you. No offense, but I seriously doubt any US troops are engaging in true mano-a-mano combat at this point in history.
It's macabre entertainment reading all the folks here who think they'd be invulnerable to PDAs-gone-bad because they have guns. I guarantee that the bad guys will have more and better weapons, more ruthless killers at their disposal, and a greater freedom of action than a person who foreswears initiation of force. You might be OK barricaded in your self-sufficient compound so long as you don't irritate them or have something they have an immediate need for. But once they become as powerful as the old government was -- and this is essentially inevitable -- you'll be wishing for the darkest days of Obama and Pelosi to come back.
Of course there's always the possibility that PDAs would go bad. But I doubt all of them would simultaneously, and it is much easier to deal with one smaller nucleus of aggression amongst many, than it is to deal with one single, monopolistic, gargantuan oppressor, like the US military / police state.
You're invoking the spectre of a worst-case-scenerio of what might happen, as an excuse to chuck the entire ancap line of thought. You don't let the possibility that you might get hit by a drunk driver prevent you from ever driving anywhere.
It comes down to this: do you believe that initiation of force for redistribution of wealth is wrong? And, would you agree that the entire operating principal of the gov't is to use force to appropriate your wealth for redistribution? If the answer to both of those questions is, "yes", welcome to anarcho-capitalism. We'll have plenty of time to hammer out the details as we go; the founders didn't wait to start the war against the British until they had a constitution all complete and ready to go. The risk of future, potential evil, shouldn't prevent you from taking action against present, actual, manifested evil.
"When vice isn't illegal, it's hard to turn a profit from trafficking in vice."
Maybe hardER, but surely not difficult, given that vices involve things that people want -- even become addicted -- to do. There is plenty of demand. But, as long as the activity itself is not illegal, there is also plenty of supply, and competition among suppliers. That's the "hard" part about a free market.
The majority of voters who pick our representatives.
Ah, there's the problem. Your setup claimed that only "some" people wanted to help the starving, presumably a number small enough that they couldn't do it on their own, not a majority.
But now you're saying the polity, ie the majority, did want to help starving people. So you need to get your story straight.
You knew what I was saying.
Yes, but I wanted you to say it explicitly so the contradiction would be clear. Not the same thing as slapping a [citation needed] on a tautological statement as you did earlier.
You see your error here Tulpa.
You say if a majority of people care about helping starving people then they won't need to force others to do that. I say, not true. A majority of people have long wanted to help starving people. They decided that a better system was to make everyone, even those that did not want to, to help.
Your claim is far from tautological. It's easy to imagine that 51% of the public wanting and working to alleviate starvation might be less effective than 51% of the public making the other 49% chip in with them to do so.
If 51% of the public in 21st century America wanted to prevent starvation, they could do it with minimal effort and absolutely no help from the other 49%.
Fuck, if even 1% wanted to prevent starvation they could do it with little sacrifice and no help from anyone else. Your argument only makes sense where food scarcity is a significant problem, in which case the people you're forcing to help are thereby being forced into hunger themselves.
Well, let's not be pedantic, we're talking generally 'helping the poor' not specifically fighting starvation.
Most people want to help the poor and most people do something to that effect. That's been true for a long time I imagine. But around the 1930's most people found that to be less effective than making everyone do some part.
we're talking generally 'helping the poor' not specifically fighting starvation.
Wow, we've got to put that goalpost in concrete next time.
And when are they no longer defined as "poor"? To what degree are they being helped? Tulpa is correct; we need to nail down exactly what the "goal" is here. For everyone to have an x-box? A car? A good car?
Yeah, if you're going to invoke the brain-shutting-off specter of people starving in the streets, it's not pedantic to expect you to justify that particular consequence.
For some reason, warning that poor people won't be able to ride city buses four blocks if libertarians took over doesn't have the same emotional impact.
Did you not see this part of my first post?
"It's not that libertarianism is all about people starving"
We should start a cable news show panel. "The statist, the minarchist, and the anarchist". Every episode could involve a Brazillian orgy in some fashion.
This would be a good bar discussion, over some nice craft brews. In Texas, of course, so I could get Shiner Bock.
It was a nice, thoughtful discussion. Appreciate it and apologies if I was smug and/or prickish at times.
Hardly anyone is poor in America any more by any reasonable standard. If you're well-fed enough to be obese, have a roof over your head, own a car and a color TV and a computer, and someone defines you as "poor", that someone lacks perspective.
So, if hardly anyone who exerts even minimal effort is poor, and virtually all of the government spending is on non-poor people (except for spending money dropping bombs on poor people far away), that whole "government is needed to help poor people" line of reasoning falls apart.
I think poor is a relative term, like short. Attempts at absolute definitions get pretty silly quickly.
I think being in danger of starvation or even just (involuntarily) hungry most of the time is a pretty objective standard.
You guys seem to like the starvation standard too, since the "starving in the streets" meme is such a popular rejoinder to libertarianism.
So, if some people are not as wealthy as others, even though by historical standards they are unbelievably wealthy, we need to have the government "help" them?
Talk about shifting the goalposts -- again.
Defining "poor" in a relative manner leads to always having poor people. It's the time-tested method poverty fetishists use to ensure they always have something to meddle with.
I worked several months in Yemen Arab Republic in the 80's where people actually do starve and some starve to death. At that time the income was about $70 per person per year, but many of the natives (then) were not familiar with fiat currency, concepts of poverty or notions about being unhappy or miserable. To be unhappy requires that a person accept the values of others. Some are happy and unwilling to compromise, and fiat currency be damned.
"...it is just that for libertarians making people help people starving is more morally outrageous than people starving..."
You make an abolute statement like that but making an absolute definition of who qualifies for such help is "silly"? Really?
When exactly did the vote to help starving people take place? I always thought that it was the massive advances in agriculture and technology that helped keep bellies in this country full. Maybe we didn't hear about this vote in our American history class.
People are, generally, uncaring assholes. They just take up the mantle of modern liberalism to stroke their own egos and convince themselves that they are not, in fact, uncaring assholes. Getting someone to rob you and your neighbor by force and having them then go feed the starving doesn't make you a better, more caring person. It just makes you an uncaring asshole who also happens to support the use of force against your neighbor. In fact it makes you such an awful person that you need someone to take your own money from you to feed the starving because you wouldn't do it on your own. If feeding the starving is such a good, or providing abortions is such a good, or providing content for NPR is such a good, why do you need to have someone rob you and your neighbor? Why don't you just volunteer your time and resources to those causes? Because, at your core (and I'm using the general "your"), you are an uncaring, lazy asshole who would rather "they" just do the hard work of taking care of others for you. Then you can pat yourself on the back for voting for the guy or gal who dips most deeply into the pockets of everyone to provide the charity that you're unwilling to provide on your own (and apparently everyone else who voted for that candidate is also too lazy to do).
I don't like starving people or animals or abused children. But I'm willing to commit my time to help them (and fortunately I'm in a profession where I can sort of help 2 out of the 3). And I'm willing to DONATE my time and resources to causes that I endorse.
It doesn't make me an uncaring asshole because I don't want to involuntarily contribute to union thugs, or to lazy fucks, or Wallstreet parasites, or to bomb people in other countries, or pay someone else's mortgage or for any other million and one other things government spends our money on.
If you don't like starving people then go out and help them. It isn't terribly difficult--buy food, cook it and serve them. Oh, except you will probably need to get like 5 permits from the government first....
People are, generally, uncaring assholes. They just take up the mantle of modern liberalism to stroke their own egos and convince themselves that they are not, in fact, uncaring assholes. Getting someone to rob you and your neighbor by force and having them then go feed the starving doesn't make you a better, more caring person. It just makes you an uncaring asshole who also happens to support the use of force against your neighbor. In fact it makes you such an awful person that you need someone to take your own money from you to feed the starving because you wouldn't do it on your own. If feeding the starving is such a good, or providing abortions is such a good, or providing content for NPR is such a good, why do you need to have someone rob you and your neighbor? Why don't you just volunteer your time and resources to those causes? Because, at your core (and I'm using the general "your"), you are an uncaring, lazy asshole who would rather "they" just do the hard work of taking care of others for you. Then you can pat yourself on the back for voting for the guy or gal who dips most deeply into the pockets of everyone to provide the charity that you're unwilling to provide on your own (and apparently everyone else who voted for that candidate is also too lazy to do).
I don't like starving people or animals or abused children. But I'm willing to commit my time to help them (and fortunately I'm in a profession where I can sort of help 2 out of the 3). And I'm willing to DONATE my time and resources to causes that I endorse.
It doesn't make me an uncaring asshole because I don't want to involuntarily contribute to union thugs, or to lazy fucks, or Wallstreet parasites, or to bomb people in other countries, or pay someone else's mortgage or for any other million and one other things government spends our money on.
If you don't like starving people then go out and help them. It isn't terribly difficult--buy food, cook it and serve them. Oh, except you will probably need to get like 5 permits from the government first....
You're not free unless you're free to be wrong.
Thanks, Ted.
Citation needed?
It's a conditional logic statement. I assume you are smart enough to figure it out.
I've long thought that at the heart of much libertarianism is the freedom to be an uncaring, selfish asshole.
Contained within all real freedom is the freedom to be an uncaring, selfish asshole. If you aren't free to to be selfish, you aren't free at all.
I wouldn't say its the heart of libertarianism, because I'm not trying to be a tendentious jerk.
This whole thread of twisted logic is bad, even, or especially, for MNG.
But then you go on to define freedom as a specific set of policies--which they are even if it amounts to "less government." Why do you have the freedom to have your policy with respect to the poor, but I'm not free to have mine? Isn't that just like any other policy difference--meant to be solved by democratic action? What you claim is freedom I see as your desire to impose your worldview on all of us, even though you're a minority.
That poor burglar; you're forcing your worldview on him by not allowing him to rob your home.
Easy. Adhere to the fucking constitution by limiting the federal government and allow states to impose their own policies which reflect differences. Want to live in the workers paradise? Go to CA. Want to live under religious oppression? Move to SC. Ad nauseum.
MNG, how about this:
In the prisoner's dilemma, each player MUST have the option to opt out in order for stable cooperation to be acheived. If you force one side to cooperate, the other side WILL begin to defect.
Likewise, in order for people to not be selfish assholes, everyone must have the OPTION of choosing not to help. If not, the systems of aid will eventually be abused. As we have seen, welfare programs are widely abused, even if not EVERY welfare recipient is an abuser. I'd argue the same is true for unemployment insurance, social security, food stamps, medicare, medicaid and many other programs that involve coercing people into providing aid to the poor.
Almost all of them are subject to widespread abuse. The reason for that is that the people paying for it cannot opt out.
Back to the prisoner's dilemma. What system produces the MAXIMUM level of stable cooperation amoung agents? It certainly isn't one where a significant portion of agents are forced to always cooperate.
In order to prevent yourself from being used, you have to occasionally be a selfish asshole and say no.
We need government to protect us against the short-sighted stupidity of would-be freeloaders like you.
I can barely remember to donate to my local NPR broadcasater. Independent donations are simply not enough to establish a safety net--something every single person in society benefits from, if only because there's no guarantee you won't need it.
I love him, I support him, and I hope he's successful, but his fathering a child that hasn't had a working toilet in years does make me question the quality of his genetic material.
"He's been warning for forty years that easy money would lead to economic collapse, then easy money led to economic collapse."
I've been warning for forty years that there would be a thunderstorm on a Tuesday when there was a full moon on a day of the month divisible by 7...and then it happened!
The "End the Fed" campaign of his officially puts him in LaLaLand with the nutcase author of 'Creature from Jekyll Island' who wrote books about finding Noah's Ark and laetrile as a cure for all cancer - more on G. Edward Griffin.
Starting as a child actor, he became a radio station manager before age 20. He then began a career of producing documentaries and books on often-debated topics like cancer, Noah's ark, and the Federal Reserve System, as well as on Libertarian views of the U.S. Supreme Court, terrorism, subversion, and foreign policy. Since the 1970s, Griffin has promoted laetrile as a cancer treatment,[2] a view considered quackery by the medical community.[3][4] He has also promoted the Durup?nar site as hosting the original Noah's ark, against skeptics as well as near-Ararat Creationists. (Wiki)
They are kooks - not economists.
Congress shall have the power to...coin money and regulate the value thereof.
It doesn't give Congress the power to farm this out to a private bank.
So in this instance you are against privatization...
Not at all. We're against the monopoly granted to the Fed and enforced by governments omnipresent threat of violence. If they allow competing currencies, then by all means, let the Fed continue.
If only congress has the power to coin money and regulate the value then who can legally compete?
You are correct about Griffin.
However, your fatal assumption is that economists are not worse kooks or crackpots.
I don't know GE Griffin, and I have nothing to say about him personally. Reading "Creature from Jekyll Island," I was rather put off with his diatribe against the Jewish Banking Conspiracy. On the other hand, his description and exploration of "The Game of Bailout" were exceptionally well-done, and I feel that those sections of his book should be part of the core-curriculum in pre-college economics. Given an understanding of that material, one could have seen the causes and consequences of the dot-com crisis and the mortgage-lending crisis ten miles away. I certainly saw them coming and did what I could to avoid and shield myself and family against related calamity. Given the scope of the problems, there wasn't much I COULD do, but I might not have done ANYTHING at all, absent the insights that Griffin provided in his book.
Sooner or later, everybody gets to be a kook. But you do yourself a disservice, to let their kookiness bias you against their good output, whenever it comes along. I drive a Ford. It's been a great car and an exceptional value, which I wouldn't have enjoyed, had I said to myself, for example, "Henry Ford was a kook for cozying up to Adolf in the pre-WWII era."
Did you know that the fellow who wrote that wonderful piano interlude in Clapton's original "Layla" went berserk at one point and killed his mother in a fit of paranoia? While knowledge of that incident colors my appreciation of his melody, it does not by any means negate it. Rather, I am astonished that such compelling beauty and frightful ugliness can co-exist in the same person. That knowledge, I think, has made me less judgmental and more open to recognizing true value, wherever I might find it.
So all you have to do to discredit someone's idea is find one deranged person who agrees with it? Charles Manson, for instance, protested war on religious grounds, on occasion. I suppose this makes anyone who protests war on religious grounds kooky.
Yours is a simple rhetorical trick. I think you understand that.
Exactly. That would also make Jefferson a kook too, along with being a terrible POTUS. Not to mention Andrew Jackson is a kook. They obviously had no clue how well our central banking works in the 21st Century.
trollface.jpg
:DDDDDD
Words that other politicians used like screeches of chimpanzee code,
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but it must be racist.
Tulpa
You're all wrong. The chimpanzees are white people, the oranguatuans are asians, it is the apes who are blacks.*
* I actually heard someone argue this in criticizing Planet of the Apes
After conquering all the Huns - tigers of the world - I will not submit to be beaten by the baboons!
But chimps and orangutans are apes; they must have meant gorillas.
0-2 on correct spelling of orangautan.
Indeed, all libertarian initiates must undergo a process known as The Starving where we watch old people starve in the streets without frowning. Only then do we get our decoder rings and decade-old button-down shirts.
I'm pretty sure some type of incantation with the words "punishing the productive" and "parasites" is part of the process too.
Don't forget the ferret in your pants and the colloidal silver funnelling.
That's only if you join the Objective subset of libertarians.
If you were personally responsible for causing the starvation, then when the person expires, you absorb all of his power.
In the end, there can be only one.
Yeah, but then you find out that you're really one of many aliens from space and the story gets terrible from there.
There's actually an altered version out there that edits all that out; if you haven't seen it, it's a vast improvement. I completely agree with you regarding the ruination resulting from the bogus "alien" storyline.
Agreed here, that's something I DO find morally objectionable, the way they ruined that story.
I had no idea my libertarianism was the source of all those damn decade-old button down shirts. I seriously haven't bought a new dress shirt since sophomore year of college.
The author of that piece writes very well, but he draws so many idiotic conclusions based on nothing more than his own biases.
I can't get past this moronic distortion of history-
"Common as these tropes have become, these are truly revolutionary ideas,"
Hey Esquire, the entire fucking Constitution is full of these common tropes you call "truly revolutionary". It was revolutionary in 1776 but now it's our entire framework of government. Or it was, until we fucked it up.
Libertarian ideals aren't some recently discovered political philosophies. They are the ones that built the USA in to what it is today. The fact that this writer finds Ron Paul and libertarians "revolutionary" is a pretty sad commentary on how far we've left the reservation.
Do you think this is true? It's certainly true that the Founders envisioned a more limited government (though only in some ways, in their world states could compel support for churches, restrict free speech, and such unless their state constitutions prohibited this) than we have, but they also were trying to create a more powerful government than they had under the Articles.
A constitution that blesses the taking of property as long as it is done with due process or with just compensation is hardly the most libertarian document one can imagine...
It's certainly true that the Founders envisioned a more limited government
Yes, yes they did.
(though only in some ways, in their world states could compel support for churches, restrict free speech, and such unless their state constitutions prohibited this)than we have
Yes, federalism. Got it. Please continue to prove my point.
but they also were trying to create a more powerful government than they had under the Articles.
You can't just say "they". Some were more so, some were less so. A compromise was reached. They were trying to get rid of a tyrannical Monarchy, so I don't get where you think that they were simply trying to replace one with another. But considering the mental gymnastics you go through trying to justify your socialist logical fallacies it doesn't surprise me.
A constitution that blesses the taking of property as long as it is done with due process or with just compensation is hardly the most libertarian document one can imagine...
That's the "we fucked it up" part.
Dude, the Constitution containes provision that plainly grant the government the power to take private property as long as due process is followed and/or just compensation is given. It's not later judicial activists penumbra that says that.
You mean the "Takings Clause" which didn't apply to the states until 1897 (Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad Co. v. City of Chicago, 166 U.S. 226 (1897)?
Er, I think this actually undercuts your argument. Unless restricted by their own constitutions the states were free to take via eminent domain without even having to follow the limitations of having a public purpose and just compensation.
I would argue that it always applied to the States. The Constitution includes a supremacy clause and numerous other clauses that clearly shape State governments or limit what they can do. So, unless a clause specifically mentions that it applies only to the Federal government, or only to the States (or only makes sense when applied at either the Federal or State level), then it is natural -- and I would argue, correct -- to assume that it applies to the Federal government as well as to all levels of government that are bound by the charter. The whole theory that the 14th Amendment was needed to force States to recognize Constitutionally-protected rights has always seemed very weird and lawyerish to me. Maybe it was necessary to get around the limitations of scope inherent in such phrases as "Congress shall make no law...," but where no specific level of government is mentioned or even necessarily implied, I can't see the need for additional authority to apply a particular Constitutional clause to ALL government in the US.
as long as due process is followed and/or just compensation is given
...and as long as it is taken for public use.
Hey Esquire, the entire fucking Constitution is full of these common tropes you call "truly revolutionary". It was revolutionary in 1776 but now it's our entire framework of government. Or it was, until we fucked it up.
Libertarian ideals aren't some recently discovered political philosophies.
Amen. I've never really understood why libertarians don't push this point harder and more frequently. It seems it should be a basic arrow in the rhetorical quiver -- if nothing else, it should be the automatic response to "if libertarians had their way..." Yet it only seems to get mentioned occasionally, and in passing.
Yes, I understand that in practice there are certain goals sought by libertarians that would not have been on the founders' radar -- e.g., drug-oriented issues. And the founders certainly weren't perfect libertarians; they betrayed their principles to allow the existence of slavery, for instance. But that's just historical happenstance. The essential philosophy is the same.
drug-oriented issues
Mostly because it wouldnt havee occurred to the founders to outlaw them.
Tax them (Whisky Rebellion) sure. But outlaw? There is a reason that drug prohibition didnt start until the 20th century.
[Actually, pretty sure they understood the concept back then, but doing it at the federal level wouldnt have been considered]
"Mostly because it wouldnt havee occurred to the founders to outlaw them."
Sure. But it's also simply that drugs were not on the radar as they are now. They didn't have the same social/cultural presence.
Anyway, sorry, I wasn't trying to turn it into a thought experiment about where the founders would have stood on drug decriminalization. I'm just saying it might be easy for people to regard libertarianism as notably different from the founding philosophy simply because drugs, etc., happen to be focal points now. They become red herrings for people who don't stop to think things through.
I love Ron Paul and support him fully, but at some point you to start looking to someone else to become president in 2013. RP can't get enough support from his own party because those dipshits are clamoring for Palin or Trump. Heck, some of team red think that Santorum is the man for the job.
Gary Johnson IMO represents a viable option, but I don't see him winning any Republican primaries.
Gary Johnson IMO represents a viable option, but I don't see him winning any Republican primaries.
Johnson will get far less votes than Ron Paul (if he runs) in every state GOP primary. I'll be shocked if he can best Duncan Hunter's 2008 numbers.
Gary Johnson would make a fine LP candidate.He has zero chance of securing the GOP nomination.
I agree, but it's a sad day that our choices are Obama and some equally moronic member of team Red.
I am so stoked about hearing people argue that we HAVE to vote for Haley Barbour because he's not Obama. That game will never get old.
"Johnson will get far less votes than Ron Paul (if he runs) in every state GOP primary."
Why should anyone be making this argument at this stage of the game? Many people thought the same thing about Ron Paul years ago when he first ran. Thank God people did not believe such stuff.
Sitting around and pronouncing Johnson DOA serves no purpose. Why not recognize that he is clearly the most libertarian announced candidate and, if one is or leans libertarian, work like hell to get the man as many votes as possible?
The more he gets the more he gets noticed, and the more he gets noticed the more his libertarian friendly message gets out.
Are you saying that you think theres a flaw in our strategy of bitching about the choice of candidates until October? I don't want to stop the moment before the miracle.
I agree.
Shit. People thought Ron Paul was too old LAST TIME.
I figured the only reason he was running was because nobody else was representing libertarians.
With Johnson in the race, Ron Paul should drop out and endorse him. Simple as that.
Maybe Ron Paul can be the VP candidate.
^^^This^^^
He doesn't care that it was a powerful American government, based in Washington and willing to invest in its people, that ultimately made the United States into the world-historic power that it is today, with a huge economy and a vast middle class.
So much fail crammed into a single sentence.
What's so good about a huge middle-class? I'm all for a huge upper-class and almost no poor people.
which have taken root so firmly that it has become essential conservative thought that any taxation is theft
Yes, that explains all those conservatives in Congress voting against any and all appropriations funded by involuntary taxation.
And the convenient conflation of conservative and libertarian continues...
Yeah, I was wondering what "conservatives" he was thinking of.
The magazine's endeavor to deconstruct Ron Paul's philosophy and ideology is unambiguously supercilious; the seemingly benign and respectful nature of the article is an attempt by the author to feign civility, and his dispensation of praise is intended to imbue the piece with an air of reasonableness and fairness in judgment.
The writer's disdain for Paul is obvious. Do not mistake his condescending mockery of the man's principles for genuine appreciation of his qualities and character.
... a Ron Paul world would alas be one with lots of folk starving in the streets.
And that would be distinguishable from our current centralized, technocrat-run world how?
we're talking generally 'helping the poor' not specifically fighting starvation.
Yes, let's talk about how the federal government "helps" the "poor":
Social Security: transfers money from relatively poor people to relatively wealthy people
Medicare: transfers money from relatively poor people to relatively wealthy people
Defense department: drops bombs on poor people
Interest on the debt: transfers money to wealthy people
Medicaid: transfers money to wealthy doctors in return for what would likely be uncompensated care in the absence of this program
Wall street bailouts: transfers money to obscenely rich people
Cash for clunkers: transfers money to relatively wealthy people while destroying the affordable cars the poor would otherwise own
This is about 75% of federal spending for the last couple years, and so far it doesn't seem to be helping poor people much.
But the Drug War gives free room and board to lots of poor people.
I'm gonna call it -- threadwinner!
Well, except for the fact that in some states - AZ and IA that I'm aware of, once you get done serving your sentance, you then have a bill for your room and board.
Does any one perchance know how many states do this? In Iowa, I believe, it's $110/night for the privilege of jail time.
The C4C thing pissed me off the most, I think -- it's like an alternate broken window fallacy in which the only windows to be broken are those in the homes of the poor. I have a cousin who works at a dealership, and they destroyed some hundreds of perfectly good vehicles, just like like this.
I mean, come on, couldn't you at least try to raffle the serviceable ones to the poor, or the Goodwill, or something? A friend of mine needs a new (used, I mean) car really soon, and would've been more than happy to drive the Aurora they nuked in that video. But I suppose it's more important that CAFE be improved by some statistically insignificant amount even if that means making it more difficult for someone who's struggling to be able to obtain transportation that's within their means.
And as if that weren't enough, some people may not appreciate how they also mandated that the drivelines of C4C cars could not be parted out nor otherwise reclaimed/recycled. Not just the already-destroyed engine, but the transmission & axle too -- I mean, WTF? As for the engines, another friend of mine makes his living selling remanufactured engines; even without some insanity like C4C, it is getting pretty hard these days to put your hands on a Chev 350 or a Ford Windsor core. Besides for the drivelines, it was also stipulated that other parting-out could only take place in the limited time allotted between trade-in and mandatory crushing of the vehicle. So hopefully, at least some parts were able to have been reclaimed, anyway.
Sorry for the rant, but like I say, this one really torqued me off, and your post just reminded me of it again.
Curious, what does Reason think of Garl Johnson?
well, I love Gary Johnson and I'm sure the rest of Reason does too. The problem is that there is very little chance he'll win the Republican nomination, let alone a single primary.
new hampshire odds are pretty good, actually. there's still a year to go!
I don't see why not. He could be a Tea Party favorite.
I don't seriously see Sarah Palin getting the nomination. If they have any brains they'll have to pick someone who appeals to the Tea Partiers and is also capable of actually winning the national election. So far the field has been full of big "name recognition" candidates, which always happens early on, but all of the "big name" people have high negatives. None of them can win.
In 1992 was Clinton came out of nowhere. He was an unfamiliar face, and the LACK of name recognition worked as a positive for him.
Right now it's more important for the GOP to keep the Tea Party happy than the social conservatives. They need somone that the general public doesn't hate (Sarah Palin) that can make the Tea Party happy.
Exactly. If Johnson makes a respectable showing in New Hampshire, I think he will become a major focus of the rest of the primary contest. At CPAC, the crowd seemed to embrace him. While he may not win, I believe that even more than Ron Paul he could continue to pull the Republican party in a libertarian direction.
Count me as one who is very enthused to see a younger candidate in the Republican field with a more limited government approach to drug, defense, gay rights, and immigration issues. Gary Johnson has taken positions on drug legalization and immigration, in particular, that run counter to those held by most Republican candidates (or potential candidates) for president. While I appreciate the focus on spending and fiscal responsibility that the Tea Party has brought, I don't really agree with the positions that many Tea Partyists have taken on the issues I listed above.
LIKE| Hot
Words that other politicians used like screeches of chimpanzee code
And those are the guys we have to take seriously because that Ron Paul is just so out there.
Whoooooooooooossssshhhhhhhh
MNG|4.22.11 @ 5:24PM|#
"That's what libertarianism is all about: the philosophy of street starvation, good and hard"
It's not that libertarianism is all about people starving, it is just that for libertarians making people help starving people is more morally outrageous than starving people..."
The above deserves a close read; it hints at much, has no facts and finally admits more than MNG would prefer.
Notice that any actual *result* ("It's not that libertarianism is all about people starving,") is totally irrelevant to MNG; the issue at hand is quite different.
That issue is obvious in this statement:
"it is just that for libertarians making people help starving people is more morally outrageous than starving people..."
The nominal focus of people starving has already been discarded, it is now simply a matter of whether we should MAKE people do something regardless of whether it produced the (supposed) desired result.
To put it in specific language, MNG presumes a totally unproven moral superiority of the left based on intent rather than any result, and is disturbed that others oppose coercion to enforce that opinion.
Parsed further, MNG is more than willing to shoot people for thinking in a different way.
Is that clear, MNG?
Good analysis sevo. Many people like MNG probably don'tever question that. From reading everything here I believe MNG is probably young, & will find the answers he is looking for. Maybe if he really knew libertarian stances he would notice he stands on the same grounds. Unless of course he is authortarian. Morals sadly are relative, so ego tripping the high moral ground is fail. Anyways, I digress, kudos!
Ththis article is ok, accept for the part that a Ron Paul world would be full of starving people. There are a lot of people in america starving right now, & the problem is getting worse. Ron Paul isn't trying to bring about starvation. How stupid is Brian to assume such a thing, or that people to take his word on it. In the end this page is some guy named Brian who wants to shed a tear for his love/hate of Paul. Good read xD
There are a lot of people in america starving right now
Yes. The poor in America are starving themselves to obesity.
"the revisionist claim that liberals made the Depression worse"
Revisionist?
Revisionist history isn't necessarily "wrong", it's just contrary to the prevailing belief among historians for a long time after the event.
OK wow, that makes a lot of sense dude.
http://www.complete-privacy.au.tc
Where is this "vast middle class" created by the Federal Govt?
I guess it means all the people with federal jobs?
Everyone else seems split into 2 classes and I can't find the existence of the mythical middle class anywhere.
Where is this "vast middle class" created by the Federal Govt?
About 30 percent less wealthy than they would have been without a federal government.
"Starving in the streets" is indeed a common argument against Libertarians. As applies to 2012, however, people might start by realizing that Ron Paul is not a Libertarian. He's an independent, masquerading in a major party.
Libertarians would argue that poor people would have better chances and would receive overflowing, voluntary help in a free society. They would be in favor of abolishing welfare or food stamps.
But Ron Paul has argued for no such thing. In fact, he has argued in favor of food stamps. He has argued in favor of extending unemployment benefits. He has argued that the War on Drugs and price inflation (due to our monetary policy) hurt poor minorities the most. He has proposed legislation to make Social Security guaranteed and tamper-proof.
Ron Paul's idea, in short, is to end our aggressive wars and military occupations (which the President has the authority to do), saving billions upon billions of dollars. Some of it will pay off debt but much of it can be used to "tide the people over" who are on welfare or food stamps. He has said it's only fair that since we all paid in to the social programs, we should get the money back.
Anyone can look up these positions and quotes in a few minutes with Google, they're established positions for Dr. Paul and he will run on this plan in 2012, not some type of militant Libertarian coup of selfish jerks. Educate!
RE: Starving
Michelle Obama is the only one in politics that I know of that has any good ideas about starving (anti-obesity campaign). That makes her a concerned person, but it doesn't qualify her to be President. I'd be happy with a government strictly limited to protecting basic civil liberties. Obesity is not a liberty.
I'd be happy with a government strictly limited to protecting basic civil liberties.
I'd say that's a pretty vain hope, for an organization based on violating our basic civil liberties to voluntarily transact business and keep the fruits of our labor and live as we wish as long as we don't interfere with the equal rights of others to do the same.
Do the fuckheads have any clue what will happen when the US goes bankrupt?
There will be a lot worse than "starving".
Obama, Esquire, the NYT, the WaPo and all the other Obama stooges are in favor of: rape, murder, torture, cannibalism, and more.
'Do the fuckheads have any clue what will happen when the US goes bankrupt?'
...JB|4.23.11 @ 9:00PM|
Are the fuckheads in the lower, middle or upper class? I've never heard of them.
Ron Paul= Racist asshole
As evidenced by his numerous campaign speeches, public appearances, website articles, and campaign positions in the past four years? I didn't think so.
Thanks for this link. It led to some very interesting stuff about Gary Johnson (formerly governor of New Mexico), and Mike Lee (R-UT) - both of whom oppose child labor laws.
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