Protecting Immigrants From Government Exploitation
Trading birthright citizenship for an expanded guest worker program is a bad deal for both immigrants and Americans.
Repealing automatic or birthright citizenship for kids of unauthorized parents has become the cause du jour of anti-immigration restrictionists. Congressman Louie Gohmert (R-Texas), is even warning that scrapping this provision is necessary to foil terrorists. As he sees it, Al Qaeda is planning to sneak in pregnant moms to deliver on American soil so that their babies can use their American passport to return to their birthplace and "destroy our lifestyle." But instead of smuggling in Al Qaeda moms to harvest terrorist babies years from now couldn't Al Qaeda just smuggle in Al Qaeda dads for immediate mayhem?
Be that as it may, ending birthright citizenship—which will require amending the 14th Amendment that guarantees citizenship to anyone born on U.S. soil—is a perennial restrictionist crusade so it is hardly surprising that it is flaring up this Republican political season. What is surprising is that even some progressive-minded advocates of open borders and limited government are joining them. Why? Because they believe this will be good for immigrants.
They have a far stronger case than conservatives such as George Will, whose rule-of-law argument for scrapping this right I addressed in a recent column. Still, the progressive case ultimately falls short too.
Its chief proponent Will Wilkinson argues that delinking the right of immigrants to live and work in the US from citizenship rights will make America a more welcoming place for newcomers. Why? Because Americans will be far more inclined to accept a guest worker program for unskilled immigrants if they don't have to offer costly welfare benefits that accompany citizenship. And given that these workers can increase the value of their labor many-fold by just stepping on American soil (while contributing to our economy), the number one priority of anyone interested in alleviating global poverty should be to try and open the door to them.
This is a powerful argument except for one major problem: To make it work, its proponents will have to go much further in restricting citizenship eligibility than even the restrictionists—an odd position for open-border libertarians. Restrictionists' want to primarily deny citizenship to kids who don't have even one documented parent. But a guest worker program would greatly increase the number of legal immigrants whose kids are eligible for citizenship. Thus unless Wilkinson is prepared to end birthright citizenship rights for all immigrant children—documented and undocumented—and make even naturalization or non-birthright citizenship harder for guest workers, it is hard to see how his plan would persuade Americans to let more workers in.
But what would life without citizenship be like? It is true that most immigrants go to rich countries for jobs, not mooch off welfare. Hence eliminating welfare in exchange for greater access to Western labor markets might strike most as a good deal. But the true benefit of citizenship is not government handouts but protection from the government itself.
In theory, the U.S. constitution guarantees immigrants the same due process protections as citizens. The reality, however, is different. The Supreme Court some years ago had to stop the feds from deporting a 47-year-old Haitian immigrant who pleaded guilty to drunk driving even though he had lived in America legally for 20 years without a criminal record and had an American wife and children. Post 9-11, Uncle Sam arbitrarily detained thousands of Arab immigrants for questioning. And the Patriot Act gives the government unprecedented detention powers over all immigrants. (Such developments prompted me to hurriedly file my naturalization papers after 9-11.) Limiting citizenship rights would expose immigrants to government abuse.
Worse, it will create a large class of residents whom the government can tax but who can't vote—eviscerating the principle of no taxation without representation for which the American Revolution was fought. As it is, the government taxes immigrants—both undocumented and documented—while restricting welfare services to them. Undocumented aliens have always paid payroll, property, sales, and occasionally even income taxes without ever being eligible for any federal means-tested welfare benefits. And the 1996 welfare reforms prohibited even legal aliens from collecting many such benefits for five years. Indeed, the citizenship-for-mobility swap legitimizes the myth that immigrants are a net drain on American taxpayers. In fact, they use less in welfare than they pay in taxes.
Further limiting citizenship options will mean that disenfranchised foreign workers will have no out from a government who wants to squeeze them to subsidize citizens. If they stay despite such exploitation, obviously that's because the alternative they confront back home is worse. But creating a situation where the government might experiment with just how much it can exploit poor people before they pack up is neither progressive nor libertarian.
A guest worker program offering foreign workers, especially unskilled ones, more freedom to live and work in this country is certainly worth fighting for. But sacrificing citizenship options might make them objects of government tyranny—and our government more tyrannical. If welfare is an impediment to greater worker mobility, then the real solution is to roll it back. Trying to make political accommodations around it may not help foreign workers as much as it might corrupt us.
Shikha Dalmia is a senior analyst at Reason Foundation and a weekly columnist at The Daily, where this column originally appeared.
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Ho reason, yes gang, they are covering this
Here's a link directly to the story.
Wont someone think of the children???
... used to think that "Undocumented Worker Crossing" sign was a joke until I visited southern California.
govamint came
govaming came and took mah babeh
Is Kirstie Alley too fat to dance?
No one is too fat to dance!
Watch me samba!
But, but...ANCHORRRRRRRRRR BAAAAAAAAAAAAABIESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!one!
This makes, a lot of sense when you think about it. Good stuff.
http://www.anon-tools.no.tc
Birthright immigration is the biggest scam in the world, even the socialist Europeans won't allow it because they don't want the entire third world coming over and demanding benefits they can barely afford for their own people.
We have to protect our borders!
If the UN had existed in the 1800s.
http://libertarians4freedom.bl.....tions.html
Soooo, to preserve the welfare state, we must give up some of our freedoms?
I think the Fabian socialists have a term for people like you... "Useful Idiot"
Did he say anything about wanting to "preserve the welfare state"? To me, his comment seems ambiguous on the question.
Every time he bitches about non-state approved migrations, he cites consumption of welfare services, typically the attendance in government schools.
Gregory is a great piece of performance art. He does a great job of exposing/discrediting state-worshiping, corporatism-supporting truculent "libertarians" of the Dondero school as mere water-carriers for the state.
"Every time he bitches about non-state approved migrations, he cites consumption of welfare services, typically the attendance in government schools."
---Which is the same argument John Stossel has, ask him, he opposes public schools and admits that open borders and the welfare state don't mix.
Besides. libertarian doesn't mean no-government, it means the smallest possible government. If you can't protect the borders of your own country from hordes of illegal aliens (some of them violent criminals), then you might as well have anarchy.
Well R, there's your answer. According to Gregory, we can't have a welfare state and freedom, and we need to get rid of freedom. QED
Would you be an open borders advocate if welfare was out of the picture?
"Would you be an open borders advocate if welfare was out of the picture?"
---I would consider it. Still, since immigration is a PRIVILEGE and not a right, I don't see what's wrong with regulating immigration. After all, if I wanted to work in Germany I would have to get an employer in Germany to sponsor me, so I don't see why we have to let every poor Mexican come here.
http://libertarians4freedom.blogspot.com/
Still, since immigration is a PRIVILEGE and not a right...
How about the right to immigrate from Missouri to Kansas?
How about the right to migrate from your house to your place of work?
Are those privileges too?
How about the right to immigrate from Missouri to Kansas?
That is not immigration. Immigration is relocating from one country to another. The last time I checked, Missouri and Kansas were both in the same country.
How is interstate migration equivalent to international migration? Please explain.
Because rights are not dependent on governments.
What makes international migration a privilege and interstate migration a right?
If, as I expect, you will say the United States government makes it so, then interstate migration is merely a privilege that you've gotten used to.
^^oodles^^
Since when was living in the United States a fundamental right held by all humanity?
Since, to use Jefferson's words, their Creator endowed all humanity with that fundamental right.
That doesn't mean all humanity will exercise that right: It comes down to rent and opportunity cost.
Since when was living in Manhattan a fundamental right held by all US citizens?
Michael E.
All countries that control population by any standard other than refusing dangerous people are in violation of their proper, limited role of protecting the individual rights of their citizens(Yes, I'm asserting that that is the proper role of any government.) If I want to deal with someone from another country, I should be able to so long as he wishes to deal with me. Even if that means hiring
him to come work for you.
Whose privilege? Privelege to what? Granted by whom and by what authority do they grant it? Whose property is being privileged to whom?
It's true, if you accept my invitation and come over to my house for dinner, you would be in my house eating my food by privilege not by right, because you are being granted use to my property by me, the owner of that property. This principle stays the same whether I invite you over for dinner or you offer me a job at your company or at your home as a gardener or you want to lease or buy my house. It is also the same if you live in Peru and I want to hire you or invite you over for dinner or sell you tires at my tire shop. To say that some authority has to grant me a privilege to grant you a privilege to my property is completely statist and when the conservatives, who are supposed to be the individual rights party, buy into this way of thinking about your property and your body as on "conditional lease from the government", the statists couldn't be happier.
Whoa! You're a real ball of confusion, aren't you?
You can invite anyone you like over to your house. You have that authority. What you don't have authority to do is invite them into the country. If that is a prerequisite to accepting your invitation, then either that permission must be obtained, or your guest must decline your invitation.
Your proposition is the equivalent of saying that since I have the right to drive to the store, I also have the right to drive through your house if it happens to be in my way.
No confusion here. The proper role of government is the protection individual rights and the removal of force from society by the retaliatory use of force. That gives the government the job of keeping dangerous criminals and dangerous diseases on the outside of our borders. A government that can use migration controls as a tool to achieve economic planning and social engineering goals for the good of the nation has way too much power. The government should have to explain to me why 2 of the 10 guys I hired from Latvia to work at my
factory were turned away at the border. And it had better be a security explanation rather than a socioeconomic one.
"The government should have to explain to me why 2 of the 10 guys I hired from Latvia to work at my factory were turned away at the border. And it had better be a security explanation rather than a socioeconomic one."
Excellent point FM. Having been through the immigration on behalf of my wife, I saw my sister-in-law get rejected for a tourist vise b/c she 'might stay in the US and get married'.
Re-diculous.
That sucks. People seem openly glad that their government is turning good people away at the door. I guess it makes them feel like they must be special. Only, special in the kind of way where you haven't done anything to earn it.
Not to mention those damn Canadians! They are taking all of our comedian jobs!
Recently the police in my town arrested a crew that did violent home invasions. They were from South Carolina.
Clearly we need to destroy the interstate highway system to keep such hordes of southerners coming north to Massachusetts; after all some of them are violent criminals.
I propose that we also start dealing with the fact that some people born to U.S. citizens grow up to be violent criminals. We need to institute state control of who is allowed to have children. We could call it the "Gregory Smith Act to Protect America from Unfit Youth." We could do lots of things: mandatory birth control, forced sterilization of illegal mothers etc, deny government health care and schooling to illegal children.
Don't be silly, Tarran, I would never advocate all that.
You would never advocate all of that? Since you didn't say "I would never advocate any of that." I conclude you must advocate some of that.
So what bits do you advocate? Birth licenses? Forced sterilization? Mandatory birth control?
I advocate the following. 1. Protect the border. 2. Illegal aliens who want to stay here should pay $20,000 (that's the immigration bill of a friend who had a few H1B's and finally the greencard). 3. English will be declared our official language. 4. No more birthright citizenship! If your parents are citizens, you are a citizen, if not, you're not.
Do you have any idea how many clauses of the Constitution Massachusetts would be violating if it instituted those immigration controls against southerners?
None, the "Necessary and good" clause trumps all. 😉
All of this is not needed or can be done very cheaply:
1) Reduce the number of border installations and leave large gaps between them. Then people trying to go by them will not attack or damage them. They will then be protected.
2) I am sorry that your friend got ripped off to the tune of $20,000. Why this communist idea that if your friend is ripped off by such a large sum, so should everyone else? I mean if your neighbor has his car stolen, should you give your car to the thieves just to be fair?
3)What does the official language mean? If it means that the U.S. government only do business in English, won't that cause problems for its diplomats? What about Federal lawsuits between parties from other countries? If it's even more draconian - everyone has to speak English - what about people who are deaf or mute? Are they to be punished for not being able to speak the language? What about people who want to do business exclusively in other languages? For example my German teacher in college would only speak German to us, would she be punished for not using English? Also, what does this have to do with immigration?
4) Doesn't this mean that everyone loses their citizenship? After all, with the exception of the handful of pureblood descendants of Indian tribes, aren't people descended from non-U.S. Citizens?
If it means that the U.S. government only do business in English, won't that cause problems for its diplomats?
How many diplomats don't speak the language of the host country?
What about Federal lawsuits between parties from other countries?
Presumably, they retain U.S. lawyers and have all documentation filed in English.
For example my German teacher in college would only speak German to us, would she be punished for not using English?
No. Declaring English the official language doesn't intrinsically mean banning foreign languages from being spoken in the U.S.
After all, with the exception of the handful of pureblood descendants of Indian tribes, aren't people descended from non-U.S. Citizens?
Are you confusing "U.S. Citizen" with "indigenous"? They aren't the same thing. Plenty of people are descended from original (i.e. circa 1776) citizens. BTW, by the original provisions of the Constitution, Indians weren't citizens.
Everyone who adhered to the Revolution became a US citizen.
If approval of "the state" is illegitimate, what the fuck do these people need citizenship for?
Thanks, I'm glad some people can read.
If immigrants are "taking our benefits", the asnwer is not to deny immigrants, but to STOP THE FUCKING BENEFITS. So long as we have a welfare state, there will be those who come over to "get theirs".
Yeah, we tried that in California. Got overturned in three milliseconds. So, now we try something else.
That's the biggest bullshit hand wave you hardcore (read: extremist and irrational) Libertarians have: the problem of open borders + welfare.
because they don't want the entire third world coming over and demanding benefits they can barely afford for their own people.
Yes, they do. Or at least a lot of their politicians do.
Immigration is extremely strict in Europe, sometimes legal immigrants can't even become citizens of the countries they live in.
Right. They should get rid of the socialism so they can get rid of those horrible immigration laws.
Good luck with that, my best friend used to work in England, he used to complain of hordes of well-educated Eastern Europeans willing to work for nothing in England. And now thanks to Muslim immigration, western values are becoming politically incorrect and people can be put in jail for speaking against Islam. Europe has a lot of problems to deal that, lack of immigrants isn't one of them.
I never said they were likely to do it, I just said they should. Their socialism is the root cause of their immigration problems. If they were laissez faire capitalists, the only people coming into thier country would be those who were willing and able to take care of their own lives and stay out of others'.
Well, at least we can agree on that.
Re: Gregory Smith,
Indeed. If any American was born outside the US, he should be able to be President! This "birthright" thing is nonsense!
(Right back at ya.)
Well, you said it yourself: They're socialists (i.e. stupid, economics-ignorant, thieving bastards.)
What's with this "we" business, Kimosabe?
"Indeed. If any American was born outside the US, he should be able to be President! This "birthright" thing is nonsense!"
---You're talking about John McCain? He was born in the canal zone, a US territory, no different from a US Embassy.
"What's with this "we" business, Kimosabe?"
---Saying "I have to protect our borders" sounds weird.
http://libertarians4freedom.blogspot.com/
McCain wasn't born in the Canal Zone. The Canal Zone was never US territory. In 1936, when McCain was born, people born in the PCZ to non US parents were US nationals not citizens. Embassies and consulates aren't US territory either.
You're wrong, I met a soldier and he explained to me that any Embassy is a part of America or whichever is the host country.
Read what Politifacts has to say about McCain's birth.
http://www.politifact.com/trut...../born-usa/
kids of unauthorized parents
They are children of illegal immigrants. Since when as Reason adopted the political correctness vocabulary?
I'm with you. "Unauthorized migrant" is as ridiculous as "unauthorized speech", "unauthorized press", "unauthorized religion", or "unauthorized trade" -- almost an oxymoron in a truly free society.
Calling such immigrants illegal takes the blame off the persons and puts it where it belongs: on the government's rights abrogating laws.
We just call them registered Democrat Voters here in Salinas CA!
Re: rather,
They must die as a consequence!
Are we not both legal immigrants? I know the INS/DHS sucks but I'm for sensible immigration, and neither side has that goal in mind
Are we not both legal immigrants? I know the INS/DHS sucks but I'm for sensible immigration, and neither side has that goal in mind
That phrase isn't correct because women come here legally on tourist visas to have their kids.
I hope Shksa still has her indian citizenship.
The pet yorkie barked.
I hope Shikha gets a new article soon.
http://reason.com/archives/201.....st-birthri
I get strange, confused deja vu often enough through liquor - she isn't helping.
Slanted article prop up the straw man and knock him over
? anti- ILLIGAL immigration restrictionists; 9% unemployment (we generate enough unskilled workers through our poor public schools);
the cost issue is school and services not welfare is the bigger issue (even US citizens bottom quintile of income does not pay enough tax for their children's schooling; reduce world poverty (not a US government responsibility, can you say individual charity?).
The funniest of all ? the "solution" by Dalmia is to import people who don't want small government and libertarian values.
We have 25% unemployment in the county I live in here in California, we have an estimated 12,000 Illegal immigrants here. The schools have everything printed in Spanish and English but most of the Parents illiterate and know little English. There is a 2 BR 1 Bathroom house that has at least 25 people living in it a couple houses away from me. For Christmas a 14 year old Illegal Gang Banger was shot to death in my neighbors driveway. The Republicans want the cheap labor and the Democrats want the cheap Votes.
The Republicans want the cheap labor and the Democrats want the cheap Votes.
You mean Republican and Democratic elites want those things. Based on the polls I've seen, their constituencies want no such things.
I suspect our next revolution will look a lot more like the French one than the American one.
Rope. Lampost. Enlightened Cosmopolitan?. Some assembly required.
Masturbating to the "Night of the Rope" chapter of the Turner Diaries again, Slappy?
Heroic Mulatto, on a good day...
That squirrel was cute.
You just described the situation here in my little Florida town perfectly.
That's the price of not protecting the border. In fact, I really hate it when Mexicans demand open borders when Mexico itself loves deporting their illegal aliens.
I really hate it when an American opposes open borders, not is spite of, but because corrupt dictators share his views on immigration.
Repeal the minimum wage laws and let as many people come in as can pass a simple background check and health inspection and all those new unskilled workers plus those already here would be working full time almost immediately, people with ideas would start tons of businesses in new industries and with new business models which would never be profitable without low wage positions, unemployment would drop to near zero and we would all enjoy a massive expansion of wealth. If you don't believe me, check out 19th century America.
You forgot the '' tags.
Dammit...
You forgot the '<sarcasm>' tags.
I don't get it.
?
Anti-immigration nonsense is mostly just a way for people to cloak their racism in economic rhetoric. The sense of entitlement that these people feel based on the specific place of their birth and the specific places of their parent's births is astounding. Especially since they tend to be the first to start bitching when other people feel a similar sense of entitlement.
Bullshit.
I live in a welfare state that isn't going away anytime soon. Birthright citizenship is an outdated idea that made sense when we were a nation with too much land, not enough people, and were isolated such that it made sense to accept foreigners if they survived the trip.
I appreciate the noble goal of forcing the destruction of the welfare state by continuing to grant citizenship so freely, but I suspect it will backfire and we'll only end up with a larger social-welfare *and* criminal justice system.
We need to reform the immigration system to streamline the process for highly(not mildly, we've got enough already) skilled workers who share American values, and make it difficult for others to immigrate.
I wish I could play on your libertarian fantasy government league and pretend that we'll get rid of social welfare and have open borders, but that just ain't reality.
One third of the land in America is still being hoarded by the federal government. We are still a country of too much land and too few people.
Speaking as a Southern Californian, we've got enough people for the amount of natural resources we currently have. If you can find a new source of water, then we can talk.
I'm a southern californian too. Something like 46% of California is owned by the Federal Government. We've always been just about to run out of water. Yet here we are filling up our swimming pools. It's almost as though supply rises to meet demand. The EPA and different groups cause all the real water shortages.
In a recent protest in Long Beach, PETA activists illustrated the problem (perhaps unintentionally).
Interesting.
It's interesting that when people have no cogent argument at hand, they always resort to the "racism" accusation.
Which doesn't make it any less true! I find it fascinating that intolerant assholes always come up with half-cocked "economic" arguments to justify themselves. In all fairness, I don't know if "racism" is the right word, since most Mexican people are white. I have learned, though, that most people who are virulently opposed to treating immigrants like the people they are tend to be too stupid to understand that.
The Irish were almost all white.
It did not stop people from discriminating against the Irish.
Exactly
I am not only taxed to pay for someone else's benefits, when I entered the country I had to report the income I made in Mexico to the IRS!
The Dems and groups like ACORN always manage to get around that little problem, though...
"the government taxes immigrants?both undocumented "
What is your problem Shikha?
There is no such thing as an "undocumented worker". IT IS "ILLEGAL ALIEN".
Got it. "Undocumented" means you don't have a license and/or social security card.
Well when I get my license renewed I get it in the mail five days later.
When I lost my social security card, I went to the office and got it too five days later. In short, NO PROBLEM.
If there is no problem with getting documents that means there is no problem with "undocument workers" because it doesn't exist.
But there is a problem with illegal aliens, that is why we are talking about it.
UNDERSTAND!?!?
If you don't go back to school and relearn English.
Re: Jackit,
Fuck you.
There is a problem: The fact that government is the one that grants "permission" to YOU to be able to work - through the issuance of a Social Security card. You may think this is no big deal since you are an American citizen... Wait until the government changes Da Rulez against YOU. What government giveth, government taketh away.
You should not ask anybody permission to seek work, never mind your "immigration" status. The right to work is based on the Natural Right to freely associate and freely enter into contracts, something the government is supposed to protect, not infringe upon. The issuance of the SS card IS asking for permission, whether you like it or not. YOU can very easily become an "undocumented worker" by the government's volition. That is the risk you run every day because of your indulgence and pusillanimity, because of the "can't happen to me" mentality.
OM,
The problem really starts with that unpatriotic Thomas Jefferson who decried the way the Britih King wanted to keep America for Americans.
You will have to enlighten me, Tarran...
From the Declaration of Independence:
This to me is the most important consideration above any other.
Anti illegal immigration rhetoric is the way for voicing opposition to illegal immigration. If one group commits the greater percentage of this crime, then it also receives the most resistance. This has little to do with race, religon, etc,. Children of legal immigrants born in the USA should have citizenship. Children of illegal immigrants should not have ctizenship. This is common sense. If it takes a Constitutional amendment, then amend it.
Re: Cliff2008,
What's "common" about the sense you imply? The common thing between the two groups is that their children were born in the same place. The UNcommon thing is the fact that the GOVERNMENT labels them differently, so why would it be "common sense" to leave citizenship to the government's volition? It makes more sense to leave citizenship to an objective fact: that the person was born inside the territory. Otherwise you are leaving the door open to government to say who has rights and who does not - do you REALLY WANT to give such awesome power to tax-fed leeches we know as "bureaucrats"???
Ha, exactly. By "this has little to do with race, religion, etc" he really means "I am too much of a pussy to admit that it's all about race and religion".
First of all, "Old Mexican", the government already decides who has what rights. What is different? Second of all, non-citizens have every constitutionally protected human right that citizens have. They just can't vote and don't have access to some welfare.
For the love of God, call them ILLEGAL aliens. Did they not enter the country ILLEGALLY? Yes they did. So what are they ? Illegal aliens! Stop being so PC!
This is the attitude that is so amusing. They were born on the other side of an invisible line and crossed it in order to enter into voluntary employment contracts. The US government considers that to be a violation of its rules. Why is it so important to YOU that they be labeled criminals? Because you feel a special entitlement related to the circumstances of your birth. Your upset that those people could be so presumptuous to try and do something that is a special privilege reserved for YOU.
Invisible line? Are you one of those "imagine there's no borders?" Gee, if there are no borders then there are no countries, and if there are no countries, then I guess a citizen of Pakistan could run for President in both American and Pakistan! God help us with Air Force One's fuel bill though.
Oh, and I'm not the one who labels them as criminals, FEDERAL LAW gives them that label. But hey, maybe you're so PC that stealing from McDonalds isn't really stealing but feeding your family, right?
It's actually not a violation of criminal law, so FEDERAL LAW really doesn't give them that label. (You're the one who's trying to be technical.)
But yeah, we live in a world of individuals. It's weird and unfortunate that we've demarcated the world in such a way that individuals are not allowed to move freely and interact with other individuals as they please.
Ok, let me speak slowly, there are state crimes and there are federal crimes. Importing cocaine into America is a federal crime, so is entering the country illegally.
Besides, I'm not a citizen of a world of individuals, I can't just pack my bags and move to Russia or Germany without a tourist visa, and if you think the Arizona law is controversial, try visiting those countries without the cops asking for your passport/ID.
We demarcated the world is such a way because different people don't always get along. Tell me, have you ever lived in a foreign country? I have.
Speak as quickly or as slowly as you want, it still won't turn being in the country without authorization into a FEDERAL CRIME, which is why immigration cases are dealt with in civil immigration courts.
You are a citizen in a world of individuals. Just because the vast majority of the world won't respect your rights to travel as you wish, associate freely, and freely enter into contracts, doesn't make those rights any less real.
And yes, I have lived in a foreign country.
Buddy, I used to live in Miami, I know all about illegal immigration, we even have a federal prison there full of people waiting to be deported or given amnesty, depends on their court cases.
And there's no such thing as "a world of individuals," I am an individual, I live in America. An individual in Pakistan has no more right to come here than I have the right to come there.
Citizenship is a PRIVILEDGE! America is not some kind of goddamm homeless shelter open to the entire world. You want to come here? You better deserve it!
Being in the US illegally is not a criminal offense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDo-ZVK4dc0
Citizenship is a privilege. Movement, so long as I don't violate anyone's private property rights, is a right.
"Gregory Smith|4.5.11 @ 2:10PM
...Illegal aliens who want to stay here should pay $20,000..."
None of us here think it's okay to steal from McDonalds just because you "need" it to feed your family. You seem to think it's okay for the government to shakedown my houseguests for huge sums of money because it "needs" the money to pay for its spending problem.
Harboring a criminal is a crime, you know. Illegal aliens are criminals by the very nature of their status, so is overstaying their visa. A civilization can't survive by enforcing some laws and ignoring others.
Why do people like you insist on resorting to technicalities, and then getting the technicalities wrong? People like you richly deserve to be mocked.
Right. Do you honestly think I'm saying that what we need to do is stop enforcing the laws? No, I'm saying the laws are wrong. I am not criticizing you for wanting to consistently enforce all laws. I'm criticizing you because you are complicit in criminalizing movement in the first place and working to keep it criminal.
Let me just ask you this. When is it OK for our government to let someone in and why? If it is assumed that only those who are already citizens may enjoy America by right(for extra credit you might explain what gives them that right[if government whim or majority rule is what gives them the right, it was never a right but a privilege.]), by what individual rights based standard are immigrants awarded citizenship? Should the government choose those who will benefit the overall social good? No, that's social engineering and collectivism. What about the economic good? No, that's central economic planning and collectivism. Any such standard sacrifices the individual to the collective. The only standard by which the government can keep people from entering the country without violating individual rights is if they are a threat to the individuals it is sworn to protect.
The government chooses who benefit, yes, ever tried joining the army? It's all about age, weight, fitness, and even your job within the army depends on how smart or how dumb you score in tests. In fact, if you're too stupid they won't even take you in.
Immigration isn't at harsh, but for example, a student visa requires that the parents have certain assets. Why? Because immigration to welfare doesn't work, and poor immigrants are a drain on all of us. Get it? We can't afford Maria coming here and breeding babies at the public hospital at our expense. We can't afford Fritz putting his little Germans in our public schools, which will require us to hire more teachers and build more public schools at our expense.
For that matter we can't afford YOU having kids and putting them into our public schools. ALL p
Welfare recipients are a drain on all of us. Get it? Because we have become a collectivist nation that views property as "ours" and hospitals as our and doctors and medical equipment as "ours" and schools and educators as "ours" and my paycheck as "ours" and your paycheck as "ours" and that the only way to leave me some of my paycheck is to control the size of the "we" who has an unquestioned right to my property by virtue "our need". No amount of immigration control can stop the decay of a country which views the work of it's citizens as a resource to be distributed. On the other hand, as long as people are left to pursue their own wealth and happiness with the confidence that their property will be protected from confiscation by their government and their neighbors, more immigrants will mean more wealth.
You're absolutely... wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDo-ZVK4dc0
I didn't know that. And that's still the case to date?
Yes.
Just imagine if it were a crime as Grego and other conservatives would like it to be. The prosecution of millions would be a logistical nightmare.
I almost wish it were made a 'criminal offense'. The ensuing judicial chaos would be delicious.
"Gee, if there are no borders then there are no countries, and if there are no countries, then I guess a citizen of Pakistan could run for President in both American and Pakistan"
If there were no countries, then how could there be "citizens" and "Presidents"?
Guys, here's a kicker. I tried discussing this and the 2012 election (potential candidates) with a social democrat/socialist-infested forum, and this is the first response I got -
"American Politics never cease to amaze me. As a rule Americans tend to freak out about absolutely everything that their presidents do if they don't support them 100%, and because of that Presidents can't ever do anything. It's no wonder why Americans often complain about being stuck in the past. Not to mention the excruciatingly long time spent rallying, gathering support, and ultimately bragging about what you can do for the country, people always fall short of their goals. Then the government is considered a failure, a new one is elected, aaaaaand so on.
I'm not saying most other countries are THAT much better, but at least there's a bit of a difference."
Are these assholes for real? Yeah, let's put faith into the hands of despots and permit them to legislate to their hearts' content.
Sure. It's not like legislatures should only legislate in extreme circumstances and only in the societal aspects explicitly and clearly delegated to them by federal constitutions or anything. Lmao. That's just stupid.
Do you agree, or is it just me that's so pissed with these asshats?
*+ executives and policy
The whole "Illegalzzz suck welfare!" screaming I hear from Buchananites is always amusing because at the same time never advocate them getting rid of the system. Apparently Paleos cant figure out that the welfare system is one of the factors that contributes to this problem.
ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION! ONLY WHAT THE LIBERAL MEDIA TELLS YOU?
When the Liberal, Democrats or Republicans talk about reducing the huge deficit, they fail to discuss the illegal immigration invasion. However the TEA PARTY does and will not deviate from the facts that the Southwest is being occupied. When the Census says the population has exploded over a short period of time. It's self-explanatory that these people are spilling across the border, with limited personal to stop the rush. The US government continuously lied to us, and the only measure of reducing illegal immigration is to unite with the TEA PARTY. The Liberal pathfinders have infected this nation with there "Political Correctness" using every demonization to either legislators cringing or saying nothing at all. The attack always starts with profiling, the racial card or trying to pass laws, that puts a harness on free speech called "The fairness Doctrine." The Liberal progressives mostly own the editorial rooms, but not cable news. Illegal Immigration is illegal Immigration. Nothing more-nothing less. This has nothing to do with people who come through the rigorous channels, to enter America--LEGALLY>
More and more so-called Sanctuary Cities are spring up, because of this massive influx. The Sanctuary State of California leads the way with a 26 Billion dollar deficit, with Nevada, New Mexico and other acutely aware they are suffering in the same way. California taxpayers are suffering terribly, with even the possibility of higher taxes. The major cause is the overwhelmingly influence of the Liberal media and the over representation of Liberal-Socialist lawmakers in the State Capitol subsidizing illegal alien household. The Heritage foundation, the nationwide policy institute stated in the report detailing what happened to the roughly 1,200 illegal immigrants terminated in Minnesota after a work site audit occurred at two companies, Chipotle Mexican Grill and Harvard Maintenance.
The federal government has a obligation in the "Oath of Allegiance," 8 C.F.R. Part 337 (2008)) to defend America from enemies domestic and foreign. America needs policing laws such as Arizona, Missouri and other States. The US administration has failed us miserably as we have seen with areas of the US frontier, being held by murdering drug cartels, and the deaths of US Border agents and ranchers. Not to forget the terrorist killers whose incursions are being assisted by the drug peddlers.
The Obama Administration has roughly 1,000 actively run immigration audits on businesses, across this nation. There analysis has shown that job terminated illegal immigrants, simply are remaining in America during this time of heightened unemployment, But more children are being born here, because of less attrition through deportation. During their time in the United States, 200 illegal immigrants gave birth to a total of 760 children subject to birthright citizenship law.. Under the current policy, meaning taxpayers are forced by the 14th amendment to pay the costs of hospital pre and post natal visits, the delivery, food stamps, Wicca, State Medicaid, lower income housing and cash payments.
Even before Obama became President Politicians have hid their intentions, not to reduce illegal and legal immigration. 1.. They would have made illegal entry a felony, just like Mexico? 2. They would have data-base in airports, to chase down visa overstays? 3. They would have fully funded the 2006 Secure Fence act, to be constructed as a 15 foot double layer border barrier, adorned with nasty razor wire; which was underfunded from the start. It makes no sense to remove the 1500 military from the border in June. The should be manning the fence with 5000 more soldiers? 4. There would be 5000 US troops on the frontier with Mexico to stop the criminal carnage from spilling over and threatening landowners in all four Border States. 5 E-Verify "Attrition" program would not have been emasculated by the good old boy, Senator Harry Reid of Nevada.
ALL BUSINESS OWNERS CAUGHT EMPLOYING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS MUST GO TO PRISON AS THEIR STEALING JOBS FROM THE 9 MILLION AMERICAN OUT OF WORK They should not be handled with kid gloves but harshly fined, all business assets confiscated and a mandatory prison sentence. Not a home held imprisonment. MILLIONS OF FOREIGN NATIONALS, INCLUDING CRIMINALS HAVE ENTERED AMERICA, IN THE PAST TWENTY YEARS AND THE MAJORITY ARE STILL HERE. If you agree with billions of dollars supporting illegal aliens and their families--DO NOTHING. But if you have just had another of this sickening joke on the hard working taxpayer, locate a local TEA PARTY to join. The spreading millions of TEA PARTY'ERS are in this war, to halt this 20 million plus settlement for good. Find more information and what illegal immigration is costing your payroll check at NumbersUSA. Call you Federal or State representative today demanding your rights as a taxpayer and end this parody of our immigration laws.
TEA PARTY says no Immigration Reform (amnesty); No Sanctuary Cities; No Chain Migration (Limited amnesty); No Dream Act (Another form of amnesty) no nothing! They broke our sovereign laws.
We can no longer trust our voting system, as shown in New Mexico, Colorado, Texas and New York as illegal aliens have compromised absentee ballots. We must have Federal intervention or malleable States that cross reference driver's licenses, Social Security numbers or authorities ID, as our elections are being exploited by criminal organization such as ACORN; they have not disbanded, but just changed their name.
News: Did you know that airlines are outsourcing maintenance to foreign countries, where only the foreman speaks English. .GOD HELP US!
Donald Trump for President. His platform is to promote only fair and honest free global Trade.
You're fired
TLDNR.
If we were a libertarian society and exported that ideal worldwide people would stay were they are. Isn't the real question, why is Mexico a failed state? North of the Rio Grande you have a modern first world city like El Paso when south of the river you have people living in tin shacks in the garbage dump.
The main problem here is that Dalmia is operating from the perspective of being an immigrant herself or being a child of immigrants. However, being the child of white collar professional immigrants (like I am, like she likely is) is a totally different world and set of ideals than the uneducated illegal immigrant. My cousins who grew up in India and now live and work in the US embrace Western ideals. They own cars and homes and are legitimate taxpayers.
"But what would life without citizenship be like? It is true that most immigrants go to rich countries for jobs, not mooch off welfare."
Then why are most births in Texas, AZ, etc to hispanics? Why are tens of thousands of them enrolled in Medicaid? If we end the welfare state entirely or make only citizens (not children born to illegals, as it currently stands) eligible for welfare programs than many people would be fine with opening the borders.
Oh yes, more of Shikha's Libertarian Ideology that is completely disconnected from reality. Let's just all sit around the campfire and sing Kumbaya. There is a reason people like George Soros, advocate for open borders. Its because it provides them with a means to dilute the sovereignty of the US and gives the Progressive/Socialists the masses needed to undermine our Constitutional Republic and Capitalist system (or what's left of it).
What Shikha is proposing unfortunately, would make it much less likely that Classical Liberal economic policies would be adopted and that support for Progressive/Socialist policies, not unlike the 3rd world nations from which many illegal immigrants originate, will increase. I suggest she live in the Southwest for a while if she hasn't. Then she will experience first hand the erosion of local and state governments by the likes of radical groups like La Raza and MEChA. These are people who advocate for the "taking back" of land they deem to belong to Mexico and who are militant Socialists/Marxists/Communists.
I am not against immigration and I believe we need a more liberal immigration policy, but a policy which can be applied evenly, fairly and cannot be circumvented by someone who does not follow the rules.
The United States is an anomaly in the history of the world and there is a reason why. As Thomas Jefferson said, "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." Why is that? Because ignorant people tend to fall for "feel good" government programs based on the world as we desire it to be, rather than on the often harsh reality that it is.
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."
Indeed.
As one good example, the natural progress of things is for government to restrict for no good reason the liberty of people to enter its dominion.
thank u
ai sile
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