Reason Morning Links: Rewarding Failure at the CIA, Surprise PATRIOT Act Vote in House, No Evidence Against Assange

• A.P. investigation finds that CIA agents often promoted after making colossal mistakes.
• Egypt protesters hoping for another big push this weekend.
• Group of Tea Party-backed Republicans helps bar renewal of controversial PATRIOT Act provisions.
• Wall Street Journal reports that the U.S. government has no evidence Julian Assange committed a crime.
• House Republicans move to defund health care law.

Comments

[generic Brand]

Maybe the Tea Party wasn't all bells and whistles. Defunding Healthcare reform, voting against renewing the PATRIOT Act... there's some promise here.

The next step is seeing what truly comes out of the budget committees.

[Gregory Smith]

The Tea Party HATES government spending, I'm very proud to support them.

[The Tea Partay]

Now, let's get that border fence built.

[Old Mexican]

Re: The Tea Partay,
Nobody's perfect....

[Really?]

Except for simplistic anarchists, of course.

[Old Mexican]

Re: Really?

Except for simplistic anarchists, of course.

I wouldn't know, I haven't met your mom yet...

[Mr. FIFY]

Is his mom a simplistic statist?

[TPer]

...and come home victorious from Iraq and Afghanistan!

[Brett L]

Can we just declare victory and come home?

[TPer]

Nope. Only an honorable victory will suffice.

[Steve]

...an honorable victory will suffice.

And since we actually have achieved an honorable victory, bring 'em home.

[Gregory Smith]

If I can't break into your house what makes you think Speedy Gonzalez can break into my country?

"Imagine there's no borders" my ass. There ARE borders and it's time to enforce them.

[kinnath]

Boring Agent Smith, very boring.

Can you try for a few original thoughts?

[scrat]

Fucking analogies, how do they work?

[Cytotoxic]

Crossing border =/= breaking into home

[prolefeed]

Yes, and if someone passes through private property without the owner's permission in the course of crossing a national border, they should be liable for criminal penalties for the trespass -- if the owner chooses to press charges.

Otherwise, G.S, analogy fail.

[Jim]

Then why did so many of them vote FOR the Patriot renewal? It was only a small minority of their caucus which voted against.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy some of them held the line, but if it's only like 10% of them, then the movement is compromised already.

[Mike M.]

After the November massacre, it's absolutely a drop-dead done deal that the House will pass the amendment and Obamacare is not going to be funded. Remember that not one single republican voted for the final bill in the first place, and that was months BEFORE the election.

The real question is whether Obama and the senate will decide that Obamacare is worth shutting the government down over.

[generic Brand]

The real question is whether Obama and the senate will decide that Obamacare is worth shutting the government down over.

Is that question rhetorical; because the answer seems rather obvious. Obama and Co. have already ignored court orders to lift moratoriums on drilling, they're ignoring the ruling by Vinson that the whole HC law is unconstitutional, he's got a laundry list of other offenses. This guy is going balls to the wall or bust.

Personally, I'm fine with that. Let the Democrats see that when the government crashes due now to their stonewalling, things will actually be better off than if their plans had been fully realized.

[Ska]

Let the Democrats see

Blind man/deaf wife.

[generic Brand]

The fatal flaw in my thinking!

[Barack Obama]

This guy is going balls to the wall or bust.

Let me be clear.

The only bust my balls go to is Michelle's.

[CaptainSmartass]

Just how many interns at the White House are named "Michelle"?

[sloopyinca]

And are they all women?

[SugarFree]

And are they all any of them women?

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

He's Obama, not Clinton.

[A_is_A]

Don't count your eggs before they're in the pudding. Out of 108 Tea Party affiliated candidates, just 8 voted against it.

[John Thacker]

You're mixing your numerators and denominators, I think. Of the 87 freshmen Rs, only 8 voted against.

Of the 52 members of the Tea Party Caucus, 8 voted against. These are not the same 8, and includes some long serving members like Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD) from Western Maryland.

I'm not sure where you're getting the 108 number from.

[TrickyVic]

""Defunding Healthcare reform, voting against renewing the PATRIOT Act... there's some promise here.""

Execpt when you look at those, health care reform wasn't defunded, the funding was reduced. The not renewing of some of the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act was a misstep and you can expect that it will be renewed.

While I like the idea that more are against it, there's not enough to make a difference.

[Pat D King]

New Castrati
Generally speaking, a young (20s) white male who weighs about a buck fifty soak and wet, has a shrill, squeaky girlie voice, and expouses liberal/progressive positions that his liberal professors taught him in college. When confronted with facts or opinions that are contrary to his beliefs, rather than presenting a cogent opposing point of view, he will call you names like "right-winger", "wingnut", fascist and of course his golden oldie "racist". He will accuse you of being brainwashed by Fox News, (or "Faux News" as he refers to it) and various other non-liberal media outlets that he despises. He has an unhealthy obsession with attractive conservative women such as Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, and Christine O'Donnell and will spent an inordinate amount of time trying to convince you that these women are dumb and inexperienced. Hates Ben Quayle to show his liberal buddies he cares!
When I told this New Castrati guy that man-made global warming was a hoax, he told me to stop watching Fake (Fox) News, got up and stormed out the door.

[generic Brand]

The COMMANDER??

[capitol l]

Hurry, grab a spoon. Pat's havin' another one of his spells!

[Really?]

You have to admit that this guy nailed a description of Ezra Klein.

[Almanian]

Can we add "soak and wet" to "tow the lion", "all intensive purposes" et al?

[kwais]

done

[zoltan]

Michelle Bachmann is not attractive.

[Pat D King]

Radley Balko has an unhealthy obsession with Ben Quayle.

[S. Sqrrl]

Dan Quayle, I thought he was a myth?

[STEVE SMITH]

ARGH!

STEVE SMITH ANGRY! STEVE SMITH NO NAZI! STEVE SMITH PROGRESSIVE! FROM EACH ACCORDING TO HER WIGGLIBILITIES, TO STEVE SMITH ACCORDING TO HIS RAPE NEEDS!

[JD]

I'd protest that poster if I were you, STEVE. That's obviously a polar bear, not Gigantopithecus.

[Solanum]

Fort Wayne city officials decline to name new government center after former mayor Harry Baals

[generic Brand]

I could not see why that was funny until I read the story. I guess I was subconsciously reading it as "Bails". Must have been the Old Testament reader in me.

Now that I know the truth though, pretty damn funny.

[Sovereign Immunity]

Nice the see the Tea Party flex some muscle and buck some establishment tomfoolery. This is somewhat encouraging.

I want to see this ObamaCare either repealed or gutted.

Salazar and Sebelius in shackles would be a bonus. Perhaps that sicko Sugar Free can write some creepy, eye vaporizing stuff about those two.

[STEVE SMITH]

NUTRASWEET BELONG TO STEVE SMITH NOW!

[SugarFree]

There is simply too much erotic charge in Salazar. He drips with overt sensuousness... Where would I even begin?

[James Ard]

I credit the WAPO for even mentioning the Tea Party's role in voting down the bill. The Ezra Kliens of the world are going to really shit when they find out the Tea Partiers really are for liberty.

[Isaac Bartram]

No they're not.

To the Ezra Kliens of the world liberty is a bad thing that ordinary people ought not to be allowed to have too much of.

Now, when it comes to "freedom, they simply have a different definition of it than you or i.

The Ezra Kliens of the world "freedom" means all detachment from any reality of risk or responsibility. Good people like him will see to it that noone ever has to face any kind consequences for bad decisions.

[The Other Kevin]

Some of my FB friends are posting "support teachers" links. This is what teachers are upset about. I especially like the quote by Gov. Daniels.

Indiana passes charter school bill

[generic Brand]

Link's broken.

[SugarFree]

fixed

[R C Dean]

SF fixes a link?

Time to go long on ice skates in Hell.

[SugarFree]

Where is your God now, Mr. Dean? BWA-ha-ha-ha!

[J sub D]

SF fixes a link?

Time to go long on ice skates in Hell.

If he fixes 1,214 more, he'll break even.

[generic Brand]

And as the 59 green lights and 37 red lights flashed, signaling the bill had passed, one person from the gallery yelled "Liar!" causing a state trooper to ask people to keep their emotions in check.

Joe Wilson is slumming it in Indiana? Also, shouldn't these teachers be... I don't know, teaching?

Lastly, this "genius": "I live in a state that doesn't have full-day kindergarten. I can't believe it," DeLaney said. "What century is this?"

I think we will begin to see more cases like this in the state governments. That will be the biggest evidence that the Tea Party had affected the last election.

[Zeb]

"You mean we can't just dump our kids in the state's custody from teh age of 4. Barbarism!"

[The Other Kevin]

Thanks for the fix.

[Pat D King]

Mitch Daniels = worst comb-over in politics.

[John Thacker]

He's from Indiana, so you have to assume it's a Gene Keady tribute.

[Timon19]

Nice. Does the governor contort his face in grotesque ways when the referee...err Assembly doesn't give him what he wants?

[Tonio]

As hundreds of teachers chanted "Shame on you," the Indiana House voted 59-37 to rapidly expand charter schools in Indiana.

Linky

[Brett L]

Didn't these teachers have classes to teach? Apparently they aren't indispensible to children learning or babysitting or whatever they "do".

[Fist of Etiquette]

Wall Street Journal reports that the U.S. government has no evidence Julian Assange committed a crime.

Newly appointed federal prosecutor Mike Nifong disagrees.

[Feministing Commeters]

Doesn't matter if he's really guilty of this or not, I'm sure he's guilty of something else.

[Montani Semper Liberi]

I actually had to google that to see if it was true. It's sad to say that the federal gov't hiring a disbarred attorney as a federal prosecutor is not something I would automatically assume to be bullshit.

[Restoras]

My flaming-liberal-feminist SiL was, and still is, convinced that the Duke lacrosse players were guilty. Why? Because they are lacrosse players. Brilliant reasoning, eh? She went to Smith.

[The Gobbler]

I have a neighbor (who is a great person and most attractive woman) who went to Smith and mentions it repeatedly. Very odd, that.

[Guy Montag]

Good morning Suki!

[generic Brand]

Fortunately for the commentariat, that ship has pretty much sailed.

[Old Mexican]

A.P. investigation finds that CIA agents often promoted after making colossal mistakes.

Is that supposed to be news? It happens SO OFTEN, one believes is part of PUBLIC POLICY to promote dummies in public service.

[Michael]

It's definitely not a surprise. Tons of organizations do it--private and public alike. You keep the competent people in the field and put the dumbasses in middle management (where they can do the least harm).

Having said that, I still don't understand why incompetent employees aren't fired...

[Chupacabra]

Don't you remember, we can't cut the federal budget, or the BEST and BRIGHTEST won't go into gubmint work any more.

[Pickle]

The Peter Principle is Public Policy

[P Brooks]

NYT has a nice editorial explaining why the fact that Toyotas are NOT trying to kill their owners plainly demonstrates the need for a larger, more powerful automobile regulatory agency.

---------

Radley Balko has an unhealthy obsession with Ben Quayle.

What NOW?

[Old Mexican]

Group of Tea Party-backed Republicans helps bar renewal of controversial PATRIOT Act provisions.

The guys at Fox & Friends were gasping for air...

[SIV]

Gretchen Carlson just looks like the kind of girl who enjoys breath play.

[The Gobbler]

Her father was governor of Minnesota some years back. I used to meet with both him and Al Checchi back in the 80's. I have never seen two greasier human beings. They literally shimmered.

[robc]

Fuck you to Kucinich for calling hypocrisy before the vote.

Did he afterword give a "Nevermind, Im a dumbass" speech? No? Fuck you then.

My rule on hypocrisy is that you can only* call it when the hypocrite votes WITH you on an issue, otherwise it looks like partisan gamesmanship.

*I have one exception to this, and its only because it was so funny and I think it actually fits the situation anyway. That is Thomas's dissent in Gonzalez v Oregon, which was actually all about Raich.

[Concerned Citizen]

What he said!

[Nephilium]

Hopefully Kucinich is not long for the Congress. With Ohio losing seats, and the Republicans in charge of the state... the rumblings are that they are going to attempt to redistrict him out. Meaning I won't have his idiotic voice representing me in D.C.

[robc]

Did Ohio lose 1 or 2 seats?

[Steve]

We lost 2 seats.

[The Dude]

Despite his inequities, you're better off with Kucinich than pretty much any other team red/team blue option. I hate the "lesser of two evils" arguments in general but I think it might be relevant here.

[CrackertyAssCracker]

My rule on hypocrisy is that you can only* call it when the hypocrite votes WITH

hmm ... that's the opposite of my rule.

My rule is they are doing the right thing, don't fuck with them even if their reasoning is totally brain-dead and/or inconsistent.

Give positive reinforcemnt for stuff your like, and negative reinforcement for stuff you don't like.

[Old Mexican]

Wall Street Journal reports that the U.S. government has no evidence Julian Assange committed a crime.

Well, yeah, but that is only because he didn't commit a crime, not because the government hasn't tried - cut them some slack, Jack!

[generic Brand]

No, it's because he's such a dastardly international master-mind that not only has he committed crimes against the U.S., he is also guilty of covering them up. Damn his evil brain!

[P Brooks]

The Ezra Kliens of the world are going to really shit when they find out the Tea Partiers really are for liberty.

Just wait 'til they see what Greenwald says about Diane Feinstein.

[Old Mexican]

House Republicans move to defund health care law.

Hopefully they will succeed and . . . What are you guys laughing at???

[Brett L]

I think this may be the perfect confluence of the Obama agenda. Solar powered hydrogen generation using spinach. God I wish I was submitting this grant proposal to the DOE. I'd be able to finally start that home for wayward young women.

[SugarFree]

Hot slut Mary Worth keeps pushing all my buttons.

Oh, yeah...

[Solanum]

No cookie for you.

[SugarFree]

Good. I didn't want a cookie anyway. [yuck, these grapes are sour]

[Sovereign Immunity]

Those aren't grapes.

[SugarFree]

Oh, my...

[Almanian]

I like how the trucker-mudflap-chick outline at feministing has her niddle finger up for us to sniff after she's been fingering herself - helpful!

[OhioOrrin]

the teaparty did NOT demand their respective state govts return ag subsidises, highway funding, or research grants.

[Old Mexican]

Re: OhioOrrin,

the teaparty did NOT demand their respective state govts return ag subsidises, highway funding, or research grants.

And you cry yourself to sleep because of it.

[The Gobbler]

Hello OhioUrine!

[Britt]

How dare they want back some of the money that was stolen from them.

Give me your address. Apparently you think that whoever possesses something is automatically the rightful owner. I need a new couch, and I'd like to see if your TV is better then mine.

[Pat D King]

See I don't get it, if you read Balko's site, he is constantly making fun of Tea Party people, even though Tea people and esp. Sarah Palin, are the closest thing this to a true liberty movement this country has seen since it's founding. Then I was watching a Lisa Lapmonelli concert from about 3 or 4 years ago. She tells a joke that a black woman with 7 abortions is a crime fighter. She tells all kinds of racists jokes (some were funny), but I'm thinking how does she get away with this? Then right after she says she has 3 lovers, one white to pay the bills, one black for good sex, and one Mexican to clean up afterword, she talks about how stupid George W. Bush is, and then it was clear to me. Hating Bush is the key to being in the "in" crowd. Same with Balko.

[capitol l]

You should lay off the Balko hate, unless you want to see the steel toe boot of nut death.

[generic Brand]

It's obvious that Balko's nutpunches would have no effect on this guy. Afterall (should this be two words? doesn't look right...) it's Pat.

[Pat D King]

See my previous post about Mr. New Castrati. See I'm a masculine man that drinks Folgers, black.

[Mr. Folgers]

And I be appreciating it, Pat.

[CaptainSmartass]

Drinking Folgers black doesn't mean you're masculine, it means you have no taste buds.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Methinks someone might be overcompensating ... or protesting too loudly.

[Citizen Nothing]

He likes his coffee like he likes his...?
Naw. Too easy.

[SugarFree]

He likes his women like he likes his coffee: freeze-dried and finely ground.

[oldtimer]

Cold and bitter?

[Citizen Nothing]

I forgot teh link

[Citizen Nothing]

SF'd it. Sorry.

[Citizen Nothing]

Sorry again. (The court says I can no longer have sex.)

[Really?]

He likes his coffee like he likes his...?

Black, bitter, and cheap?

[wylie]

He likes his coffee like he likes his...?

Oh, see, i just thought "drinking Folgers, black" was a euphemism for something exceedingly nasty.

[Pat D King]

You're an idoit

[Citizen Nothing]

Technically, it's moran.

[Pat D Kake]

The wurld is roold by dops.

[Max]

You should lay off the Balko hate, unless you want to see the steel toe boot of nut death.

Reasonroids are separated from the liberturd chaf by their enthusiasm for sucking Balko's cock.

Congrats cap1 you make the cut.

Now get back on your knees bitch!

[Mr. FIFY]

Balko points out injustices in the drug war, among other services he provides.

Which makes you... someone in favor of no-knock drug raids, right?

[J sub D]

No. Max/Edward/Leftiti is a basement dwelling troll who found out about H&R's extreme reluctance to ban immature fucktards.

He favors, nothing, he opposes nothing, he merely masturbates furiously while tossing anonymous irrelevant insults at people.

Truly, he is a pathetic example of the species.

[Max]

Thank you Officer Nasty. May I have another?

ARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARFARF!!!!!!!!!!

[Citizen Nothing]

I give it a 9.5 on teh stupid.

[capitol l]

Dude, he admits to watching Lisa Lapmonelli(sic), presumably using his own name...9.76 tehs

[Pat D King]

Hey thanks for clearing up that spelling mistake, you have a bright future ahead of you grading elementary schoolers test results. Next time get to the heart of your disagreement with me, see my new castrati post for help on forming a good argument.

[capitol l]

Yer really proud of that turd you dropped up there, ain't you.

[SugarFree]

Inability to spell, not too bright, impulsive during argumentation... maybe King is Ben Quayle.

"Now tell me, in single words, only the good things that come into your mind when you think about... Murphy Brown?"

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

I woulda tapped her when she was younger.

[Pat D King]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

[Zeb]

Boring.

[Bee Tagger]

You must have walked out of Tropic Thunder furious at Robert Downey Jr.

[Fluffy]

Sarah Palin doesn't speak for the Tea Party, no matter how much she tries to claim that she does.

You don't get to be part of a "true liberty movement" when your tampon flares red with rage because the current administration isn't doing enough to assassinate journalists, or to support Egyptian dictatorships.

[Jim]

^^THIS^^

[Will you please]

lose that f#*cking facebook script. It's making my firefox go nuts. Seriously, it's garbage. Is the webmaster in the house?

[Pat D King]

You sound like a Mr. New Castrati, see my above post or do a search on new castrati. Get a search party started to find your balls.

[Spoonman.]

Switch to Chrome and use the "reasonable" extension.

[Nephilium]

Or you can use AdBlock and NoScript. Just add *.fbcdn.net, *.fbcdn.com, *.facebook.net, and *.facebook.com to AdBlock, and watch the system run faster (even as you watch Facebook continue to connect). Be aware if you actually use the accursed Book of Face, this will block it.

[Citizen Nothing]

First encouraging news outta Congress in a long spell. I, too, have my doubts about the TPers, but so far, so good.

[P Brooks]

lose that f#*cking facebook script.

Seconded.

[R C Dean]

Any discussion?

Motion passes by acclamation.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

[-]

[transferring data from reason.com]
...
[waiting for facebook.com]
...

[Sybil Tung]

Assange Probe Hits Snag

Eewww!!

[SugarFree]

Scientology builds Tom Cruise a secret super-bus with slave labor.

[capitol l]

Imagine the hell that is Katie Holmes life. Jeezuz, it's like an extra 10th circle.

[John]

I hate Cruise for fucking up Holmes more than anything else. Before she met him, she was the ultimate hot college chick.

[SciFie]

Why do you hate their happiness?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Next to the Queen's Brigade, Katie Holmes was my favorite beard.

[Rich]

Cruise used the luxury vehicle as a base for lover Katie Holmes

"If this bus is veerin', don't bother clearin'."

[R C Dean]

I thought she was his wife?

[Devil Incohate]

They weren't married until 2006.

[Butts Wagner]

"Mr. Cruise also said that when Silver Screen arrives - he is not going to set foot in it unless COB [Chairman of the Board] has been in it first."

Carrot Top?

[John]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41.....-security/

Ladies and gentleman, your CIA. They only hire the best you know.

[capitol l]

Sorry to burst yer bubble, but this story is actually a morning link.

-1 hat tip

[P Brooks]

Oh, nooooooooooooo!

"We recognize that some cuts are necessary statewide and that this agency will be affected," said Mark Wolfe, executive director of the Historical Commission . "We welcome the opportunity to do our part in assisting legislative leaders in prioritizing the state's needs as they apply to this agency. Our historic resources are a vital part of our future and can contribute a solution to the state's economic difficulties."

Gary Gibbs, executive director of the Texas Commission on the Arts, says the group's impact is statewide.

"Our support of arts organizations throughout the state benefits all communities and attracts business," according to Gibbs.

Dissolving the arts commission would have the greatest impact on small and rural communities, said Amy M. Barbee, executive director of the Texas Cultural Trust, which promotes the arts.

"Arts and culture industries generate $4.5 billion in taxable sales," said Barbee, referring to a study released Monday by the trust and paid for with federal stimulus funds. "That is a big return on investment."

"Cut somebody else's budget! We're ESSENTIAL!"

[Spoonman.]

Well folks, we actually have less money than you want, so you're not going to get everything you want.

We've assembled a team of fifth grade teachers to help you with the math if necessary.

[Jeff Foxworthy]

At this point I would take the 5th graders over the teachers.

[Zeb]

Have you met any fifth graders?

[Jeff Foxworthy]

I work with them every week! You know you're a dumbass when a public educated 5th grader can answer more questions than you on a nationally televised show.

[SugarFree]

"Where you can still just put a bird on something and call it art."

[sloopyinca]

"Arts and culture industries generate $4.5 billion in taxable sales," said Barbee, referring to a study released Monday by the trust and paid for with federal stimulus funds. "That is a big return on investment."

Breaking News: Feds give money for organization to do "study" showing they are good. Raw data says no, but after data adjusted, study says yes.

Jesus. Next thing you know, we'll be commissioning scientists to prove AGW. If they can find (or manufacture) data supporting it, they will get more money. If they find data disproving it, their funding will end. Is there any wonder why the selected (or manipulated) data points in one direction?

[Ezra Klein]

The science is settled, bitches!

[sloopyinca]

You sound like Krugnuts now. Anyone see his piece the other day about hunger being caused by extreme weather that comes from [gasp] climate change.

Believing that clown requires a bigger leap of faith than Indiana Jones made from the lion's mouth.

[J sub D]

There would be no art without government subsidies.

Government invented jazz and surrealist painting.

Without government we'd all have those pictures of kids with big eyes or Elvis on velvet hanging in our living rooms.

[Night Elf Mohawk]

Arts and culture industries generate $4.5 billion in taxable sales...

I'd be interested in 1) what constitutes "arts and culture industries" in this study and 2) how many of those sales could legitimately be counted as a "return" on this "investment" and how many would have occurred without the existence of the Texas Cultural Trust.

[Devil Incohate]

Go get a real job, Barbee.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Federal gubmint considering regulations regarding consumer table saw safety.

Among other things, I'm a hardcore do-it-yourselfer and serious hobbyist woodworker. I've been kinda following this story as it has evolved for several years.

The story here is this guy invented what is now known as "SawStop" technology, that uses electronic circuitry to detect when flesh contacts the spinning table saw blade, stop the blade and drop it below the table top within about 0.04 seconds. It destroys the blade and the brake mechanism when it is triggered. The replacement brake is about $80, and a good blade can easily be $100 or more, so people have criticized that. AFAIC, it's a cheap price to pay to not have your hand cut in half.

He initially tried to license it to several machinery manufacturers (Delta, Grizzly, Powermatic, etc.), all of whom rejected him - mostly because if they used it on their new machines, it essentially would be an admission that their prior machines, built without that technology, were dangerously defective.

He then lobbied government to try to implement regulations mandating use of his technology. For that, he was roundly and soundly criticized.

He finally said screw it and started his own company - SawStop - and started making his own machines using his technology. The company has been pretty successful and from what I've read, the SawStop saws are actually very good machines. But among the woodworking world, it has created strongly divided camps - those in favor of individual freedom not use a "nanny" machine that instills a false sense of security and engenders reliance on the technology of the machine itself to keep you safe, rather than using your own good sense and individual responsibility, versus those who think it's a very good idea that has been proven to save fingers and hands (it has an excellent track record in this regard), and that even when you take all proper precautions, accidents can happen and they happen with frightening speed when you're dealing with a table saw.

Last year, a guy won a multi-million-dollar case against Ryobi when his hand was mangled in one of their little benchtop saws - because the saw was not equipped with this type of technology, despite the fact that it was shown that this guy was totally misusing the saw. A lot of people freaked out that this was bad precedent - and it might be; I dunno.

But now the CPSC is taking another look at whether it should mandate the use of this technology. And the guy who invented it is salivating. And a lot of people want his head on a platter. It will make the machines more expensive, and

Anyhow, just something I'm interested in; thought it was relevant here, as it is a nice illustration of government-mandated automated safety versus individual responsibility.

[R C Dean]

The crucial question, Suppressed, is whether SawStop is a publicly traded company, so that I can profit from the regulatory arbitrage to come.

[Warty]

Growing up in the country, I knew lots of dudes who had lost fingers and toes to machinery. I don't think any of them lost them to table saws, oddly enough. A few of them were lawnmower accidents, there was one chainsaw accident and at least were two radial arm saw accidents. My dad managed to lose a fingertip to a router, which still impresses me. But, yeah, as far as I know, no one would have had any fingers saved by the SawStop.

[SugarFree]

There was a neighbor of my grandfather who cut off three of his fingers with a table saw. He went running in the house spurting blood and his granddaughter was following him carrying his fingers and pausing to vomit occasionally. I hosed his blood off of her in the backyard after the ambulance came. My Grandma made us chocolate milk after she toweled off. We were both eight, I think.

[Citizen Nothing]

This story probably explains a lot.

[Warty]

Yeah, but did you bang her?

[SugarFree]

Not that afternoon.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Did you fingerbang her? Hyuck hyuck...

[SugarFree]

They took the fingers with them. Do I have to spell everything out for you people? Geez.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

The article gives a stat that 10 fingers are amputated by table saws every day. Dunno...

[Ezra Klein]

And more women are abused by their husbands on Super Bowl Sunday than any other day!

[robc]

Ive brought up the local (and tops in the world) hand care center near me. I remember one patient there from a field trip, he lost his hand to a table saw or something similar (possibly larger). It was sewn back on and he had some feeling in his fingers, at the point he was telling us his story.

He didnt even feel his hand get cut off, he saw something that looked like a hand in the pile of sawdust and then looked around to see whose it was (his son was working with him at the time). It was his own.

Anyone, this seems like someone who would have been saved by the SawStop.

[Fist of Etiquette]

My sister bought a house from a guy who, while renovating the house to which he was moving, cut his hand clean off using a miter saw. They reattached it, but I invite all you DYIers to consider what that would have been like. You just pulled down the saw through a 2x4, the wrong side of which you were holding. The image of that "oh fuck" moment haunts me to this day.

I don't advocate mandating the SawStop. Personally, I simply use a blade so dull that it would take me a few seconds of real effort to get through my bone. That's how I protect myself.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Using a dull blade is quite dangerous, actually. It is best to always use properly sharpened blades - whether we're talking chisels and handplanes or power tools.

And the worst hand injury I've ever given myself came from a grinding wheel, of all things. It wasn't horrific, but there was blood sprayed on the ceiling...

[Fist of Etiquette]

I don't actually use a dull blade. My Mexican day laborers do.

[Citizen Nothing]

Ditto. You know what happens when you drop a monocle into a tablesaw? Shards everywhere.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

It's even worse if you drop it right on the blade when the tablesaw is running.

[Zeb]

I am also a serious hobbyist woodworker. While it is hard to argue against the great safety advantage of the sawstop, it is ridiculous to call a tablesaw a defective piece of equipment because it can cut your fingers off. It is a machine that is meant to cut things rapidly. If you stick your finger into the blade and it gets cut off, the machine is doing exactly what it is designed to do. The idea of what can be considered a defective product has become far too broad.
It would certainly make sense, and be a good thing, if insurers require commercial shops to have such safety devices, but to have a regualtion requiring all saws to have it is an undue burden and expense on people who just want a saw. If you don't know that a table saw will cut your fingers off if you fuck up or are not careful enough, you are going to have a lot of other problems in life. Shit is dangerous.

[Gus]

Fucking window fan grills. How do they work?

[Night Elf Mohawk]

SawStop looks like borderline magic to me. I don't do woodworking anymore but I'd definitely use it, though it obviously shouldn't be seen as a replacement for good safety practices.

If people don't want to use it, they shouldn't have to and they sure as hell shouldn't be mandated by the government to do so.

[generic Brand]

As soon as this technology becomes mandatory, then the attention to production detail falls off, general worker safety precautions fall off, and there's no guarantee that it will save as many digits as a non mandated table saw would. It's the same thing as airbags. If the user wants to pay more for that precaution, then by all means do so. But the government mandating all cars (table saws) must have this precaution will then drive the price up for the consumer.

Just another example of Commerce Clause being used unjustly.

[JW]

The Dicovery show Time Warp did a segement on SawStop. Assumignit works as advertised, it's pretty damn cool.

[Corduroy]

Long and short - Liability and workman's comp insurance companies are are creating a market for the SawStop in commercial and industrial environments regardless of regulations by manipulating their rates.

For consumers, I say if you want to buy a tool that can gobble your fingers, it's your call. Last time I checked, they still sold chainsaws to homeowners at every bigbox hardware store.

Screw the CPSC.

[Gus]

"The story here is this guy invented what is now known as "SawStop" technology, that uses electronic circuitry to detect when flesh contacts the spinning table saw blade, stop the blade and drop it below the table top within about 0.04 seconds. It destroys the blade and the brake mechanism when it is triggered."

So how am I supposed to train my cats now???

[sloopyinca]

ACLU goes batshit over public cameras in Chicago. Mayor tells them to go fuck themselves. ACLU remains mum on 2nd Amendment in city.

Commentors split into people who actually want freedom and those who want to lick badges.

[Pip]

Thatnk god that, as we learned yesterday, cops are the most respected people on earth.

[Warty]

Pigs steal 232 guns from priest, get him fired

[Brett L]

You'd think a priest with the name John Henry could get by with just a hammer.

[Restoras]

Or just a shitload of money and the Boston Red Sox.

[Farmer Pete]

Them must be some smart pigs. The story says he "stepped down" voluntarily. You don't believe the reporter?

Cleveland city councilman Joe Cimperman released the following statement: "Effective immediately, Abbot Father John Henry will begin a voluntary and indefinite leave of absence from his ministry."

[generic Brand]

Wasn't this a movie? Sure, the setting was Boston, not Cleveland, but the characters sound oddly familiar.

[P Brooks]

U.S. News and its partner in the ratings, the National Council on Teacher Quality, an independent advocacy group, originally told schools that if they did not voluntarily supply data and documents, the teacher quality group would seek the information under open-records laws. If that did not work, the raters planned to give the schools an F.

That got the attention of educators.

Brian Kelly, the editor of U.S. News, said the push-back from education schools was evidence of "an industry that doesn't want to be examined."

"These teacher-education programs are hugely important and not very well scrutinized," Mr. Kelly added. "This is coming at a time when you have this tremendous national push for improvements in teacher quality: Who's teaching the teachers?"

NYT

Attempting to hold teachers' colleges accountable? That's crazy. Teaching is an ART; only some ratbagger would try to impose some sort of sick and oppressive "grading system" on it.

[Brett L]

If we raise the standards on Ed schools what program will take all the pretty coeds with below average intelligence? Oh well, still need hot business majors to sell pharmaceuticals.

[R C Dean]

I can think of a use for pretty coeds with below average intelligence.

[Chupacabra]

The sideline reporter industry is ready to take off.

[sloopyinca]

I thought 90% of them that didn't become teachers ended up waiting tables until they became qualified to tend bar by fucking the owner.

Em, lives and learns.

[Brett L]

That's why I want to keep them on campus.

[Spartacus]

It is an art, mostly. That's why colleges of education are so ineffective. A lengthy apprenticeship would, in most cases, be far better.

[P Brooks]

This just in:

Ben Bernanke is a blathering imbecile.

[Ska]

Getting your news by trade caravan?

[Restoras]

Or maybe a trireme convoy?

[sloopyinca]

That comment is Euro-centric. What, Arab trade not good enough to use?

Fucking racist!!!

[Grummun]

They had to send a replacement Trireme after the first one ended it's move in a square not adjacent to land, and was lost.

[sloopyinca]

This comment doesn't even need to be supported by a link. Well done.

[SugarFree]

British sets dangerous precedent for Tony: Court bans man with low IQ from having sex

[Warty]

61,838,154 imbeciles are enough.

[Sovereign Immunity]

How exactly did you arrive at that precise number? Are you really prolific or this Steve Smith character?

[Zeb]

I'm guessing it is the population of the UK.

[NoVAHockey]

was buck v. bell ever officially overturned?

[SugarFree]

The laws that it legitimized were on the books in Virginia until 1974.

"Forced sterilizations are the price we pay for civilization."

[Warty]

"Beware how you take away hope from any human being."

I wonder if the old vampire had the self-awareness to think about what he was saying there.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

No. But Skinner v. Oklahoma created enough concern that it effectively ended the practice of involuntary sterilizations.

[NeonCat]

So Patton Oswalt was right, there are gay mentally challenged people.

That said, this was a retarded decision.

[P Brooks]

Last year, a guy won a multi-million-dollar case against Ryobi when his hand was mangled in one of their little benchtop saws - because the saw was not equipped with this type of technology

was he somehow deceived into believing it was? If not... tough shit, sez Juror Number Seven.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

No, he was a Mexican day laborer. The contractor running the job stuck him in front of the table saw and showed him how to run a piece of wood through it.

As is common on far too many residential construction sites, they had this little POS plastic and aluminum benchtop saw sitting on sawhorses or something.

Apparently, the dude tried to cut a piece freehand - i.e., without using the fence - a HUGE no-no. The boss really didn't train the guy adequately or provide sufficient supervision. I can't recall the specifics of what happened, but the saw moved or slipped or something and he basically tried to chase it across the floor - which is what happens with those little lightweight benchtop saws if you don't bolt them down - and he managed to cut off half of his hand.

Ryobi claimed the accident was solely due to his misuse of the product and failure to follow their written safety instructions. But the vast majority of U.S. jurisdictions follow the rule of comparative fault. The jury found the dude mostly liable for his own injuries, but also found Ryobi partially liable for not using SawStop - type technology. It was enough to award him, IIRC, something like $2 million. I know Ryobi said they would appeal; I don't know what happened to the case after that.

[Corduroy]

Short story - Ryobi got fucked and every other equipment manufacturer is now freaking out

[Old Mexican]

Re: Barely Suppressed Rage,

The jury found the dude mostly liable for his own injuries, but also found Ryobi partially liable for not using SawStop - type technology.

Obviously, the jury was made of people with absolutely no technical skills whatsoever, as such technology cannot be implemented on those little benchtop tablesaws.

Ryobi claimed the accident was solely due to his misuse of the product and failure to follow their written safety instructions. But the vast majority of U.S. jurisdictions follow the rule of comparative fault.

... which is something like placing blame on someone for not foreseeing the future.

Ryobi actually HAD a perfect case, as they were right - it is not their fault if some moron uses their product incorrectly or decides to wear one like a hat. They cannot be held responsible for somebody else's dumb acts, but I guess that in this "let's stick it to the corporashions!" age, anything goes.

[generic Brand]

A jury found that a Mexican day laborer was going to be shorted $2 million over his entire lifetime because he cut off half of his own hand? This just looks like another one of those McDonald's coffee is fucking hot lawsuits

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Lost wages is only one element of damages. You've got actual damages - lost wages, medical bills, etc. Then you've got "specials", and then you've got a punitive measure.

Typically, the punitive damages are far greater than the actuals and specials put together. E.g., you might have $75,000 in medical bills, $350,000 in future lost wages, $150,000 for pain and suffering, and then $1.4 million punitives.

The idea is to not only compensate the plaintiff for what he actually has suffered, but also to send a message to the tortfeasor to not do it again and be more careful in the future - i.e., we're not going to let you profit from your negligence.

I don't know the specifics of this guy's claim (and I'm not going to bother looking it up), but I'd place a large bet that the majority of the million and half or whatever it was was for punitive damages.

[Zeb]

If it was actually someone else's fault that my fingers got cut off, I would damn well hope I had $2 mil coming to me. You really think that all you lose is wages if your hand is mangled?

[P Brooks]

My Grandma made us chocolate milk after she toweled off.

I love happy endings.

*sniffs, dabs tear away*

[SugarFree]

They weren't able to reattached his fingers. The resulting claw formed from just having an index finger and a thumb really freaked me out. He died not to long after that. Which I also managed to be around for. But it was a heart attack, nothing gaudy.

[Restoras]

-1 for the nasty visual.

[Corduroy]

Tablesaw accidents are generally gruesome. Not clean at all because the blade pulls the hand down and turns it over as it mangles the flesh and removes fingers. GIS if you dare

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

You think a tablesaw is bad? Ever see pics of what an old-fashioned, square-head jointer can do?

Yeeeeecccccchhhhh!!!

[SIV]

Reason's #1 traffic driver, Glenn Reynolds, calls Justin Raimondo a lying sack of shit.

[P Brooks]

When I bought my crappy little generic table saw, the first thing I did was remove the blade guard and throw it away. I don't want no false sense of security; I'd rather have that blade whizzing around out there in the open where I can keep track of it.

[Zeb]

I hate blade guards. I can see using splitters and hold downs when ripping under certain circumstances, but the guards are just awful. You can't see what is actually happening at the blade. People cut off their fingers when they are either doing somethign they shouldn't be doing or (as is the case with most professionals who do it) what they are doing becomes too automatic and they don't pay attention. Proper atention and use of push sticks would eliminate almost all tablesaw injuries. (Now that I have said that I'll probably cut my fingers off tomorrow.)

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

(Now that I have said that I'll probably cut my fingers off tomorrow.)

This is why I try to refrain from saying anything along the lines of, "Well I've been using my table saw and other power tools for over 20 years and I've never so much as cut myself." Which, although true, really seems to be taunting the fates.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

I should make it clear that, like Dave Mustain, I ain't superstitious. And I have cut myself - many times - but it's always been with something "not dangerous", like a utility knife, pocket knife or chisel.

[generic Brand]

Someone really needs to legislate away utility knives and chisels. Not to mention the danger that carving knives pose to law enforcement!!

[Pip]

They're doing that in Seattle, where whittling is now a capital offense.

[waffles]

superstition is the cheapest insurance you can buy.

[Zeb]

I remember hearing somewhere that utility knives are the number one cause of industrial injuries. I have no idea if this is actually true.

[Redneck]

Hey y'all, watch this!

[Fist of Etiquette]

I do the same thing with the labels on my medication. I just know those pills were in their bottles hiding behind the stickers, conspiring against me.

[Brett L]

That "do not drink alcohol while taking this medication" isn't ALWAYS just ass-covering.

[Devil Incohate]

I take that as a dare.

[Zeb]

Fine, but you'll never convince me that Percocets don't work better with a couple of beers.

[Citizen Nothing]

This discussion just reminded me of one of my favorite Far Side cartoons.
Two pirates are sitting at the bar. The one with the peg leg says "That's nothing. Let me tell you about the time I lost this!" The other pirate has a peg head.

[John]

Clueless Dems struggle to create a "jobs inititiative" that doesn't spend money. This is so pathetic that it almost isn't funny

http://thehill.com/homenews/se.....-jobs-plan

[John]

http://www.boingboing.net/2011.....oing/iBag+(Boing+Boing)&utm_content=FaceBook

This is pretty clever. It turns out that if you stitch together all the little over-the-top McBain movie clips shown in several seasons' worth of Simpsons episodes, they form a coherent mini-feature -- a little Easter egg planted by the fun-lovin' Simpsons writing staff!

[Brett L]

Holy shit, FL Governor opposes prescription database

"The repeal is buried deep in a proposed implementing bill for budget recommendations that Scott submitted to the Legislature on Monday.

Hughes said that Scott, a former health care executive, supports Attorney General Pam Bondi's push for tougher criminal and civil penalties as "a more effective way to fight this."

The database is not a core government function, especially in lean economic times, Hughes said. He also questioned whether it has the necessary funding to get started.

Lawmakers never provided money for the system, instead directing the governor's drug control office to raise private contributions. One of the first things Scott did after becoming governor last month was to disband the drug office."

I like this guy so far. He doesn't owe either party shit, and he gores whatever sacred cow happens to be standing in front of him on a given day.

[Cytotoxic]

How did he get elected?!?!

[P Brooks]

People cut off their fingers when they are either doing somethign they shouldn't be doing or (as is the case with most professionals who do it) what they are doing becomes too automatic and they don't pay attention.

It's not really an issue working on a table saw, but- speaking of "not paying attention", I find working on the lathe to have a hypnotic effect. Maybe it's the flickering reflection of the lights on the chuck, but I have to really make an effort not to lose concentration on what I'm doing; the band saw has a similar effect, but not as strong.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

You don't have to worry until you hear the lathe's voice in your head, telling you to do things.

[John]

James Webb is not going to seek re-election. he will thus avoid the electoral beating the crapweasel so richly deserves.

[Brett L]

Sadly, I'd put Jim Webb in the top 3rd of the Senate as far as integrity and intelligence go.

[John]

Three words

VOTED FOR OBAMACARE

[P Brooks]

It's so hard to keep track; tell me again why (aside from the fact he's a politician) "we" hate Webb.

[John]

he voted for Obmacare. He claims to have other more acceptable positions. But when it mattered, he voted for the worst legislation in half a century when his vote alone could have stopped the thing via filibuster. That is enough I think.

[John]

Now hold on as I go down on my knees for all my favorite Patriot Act-supporting Republicans who prove they genuinely hate government by wanting Assange assassinated and Egyptian dictatorships propped up.

[John]

IF you are going to troll at least read my posts dipshit. I have said on numerous occasions that Assage didn't commit a crime and Mobarack has to go.

Can liberals do anything but bring the stupid?

[PantsFan]

Apparently George W. Bush's EPA Director pushed for strong action on climate change, stating in a personal letter to the President (dated January 31, 2008)

"the latest climate change science does not permit a negative finding, nor does it permit a credible finding that we need to wait for more research."

http://democrats.energycommerc.....-finding-0
And it looks as if Obama's administration has essentially followed the plan proposed to President Bush in directing the EPA to proceed with regulation of GHG's.

[Downsize DC]

The real story about the Patriot Act vote was the stunning about-face from House Democrats. Support for the Patriot Act went from about 62% last year to 35%. THAT'S a much bigger story than the fact that about 15% of Tea Partiers voted against it.

[John]

No it is not. Everyone knows the Dems are good at casting votes in the minority for shit that they know won't pass. They had every chance to repeal the Patriot Act for the last two years and didn't. It is not surprising that after getting killed in November they would try to rally their left base by making symbolic votes from the minority that they know the majority of voters will never hear about

Now, Republicans voting against the act is a truely new development.

[TrickyVic]

Maybe they are doing the same thing that you think the dems are doing.

[TrickyVic]

""They had every chance to repeal the Patriot Act for the last two years and didn't.'""

Give me a friggin break John. You think two years of not repealling it means something? The republicans had more than double that time and they didn't repeal it.

[Cytotoxic]

Two years = nothing? They were the people who were supposed to oppose this thing not the GOP.

[TrickyVic]

""They were the people who were supposed to oppose this thing not the GOP.""

Last I look, the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act was very bi-partisan. They were not opposed to the act, just Bush.

[Fatty Bolger]

Aw, ain't you cute!

[TrickyVic]

""The real story about the Patriot Act vote was the stunning about-face from House Democrats.""

Maybe, we'll see how they vote when it comes around again.

[Nigel Tufnel]

"I give it a 9.5 on teh stupid."

The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...

[????? ??????]

Thanks