Reason Morning Links: Loughner Appears in Court, New Gun Control Measures Unlikely, Scientists Tout a Universal Flu Vaccine

• Obama to speak at memorial for Tucson victims today.
• Politico: New gun control measures in wake of the shooting unlikely to pass.
• Jared Loughner makes his first court appearance.
• U.S. official in charge of overseeing money spent in Afghanistan resigns amid criticism.
• Scientists say a universal flu vaccine could be available within 10 years.

Comments

[Fist of Etiquette]

New gun control measures in wake of the shooting unlikely to pass.

Also unlikely to have stopped the unpredictable lunatic from doing violence.

[Brian from Texas]

Mark Hinkle's statement on LP.org kind of said it best in that we need to get rid of these silly laws and regulations that deter the good guys from carrying weapons and who might have been able to stop this guy before he shot the number of people that he did.

[Brett L]

Its never that simple. AZ has some of the loosest carry laws in the country, and people were carrying. Sometimes there's no good way to plug a bad guy in a crowdful of people. Which is not to defend gun control, only to state that pretty much no level of firearm freedom would have abated this tragedy.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Nothing stopped the good guys from carrying in this case, and in fact, there were armed concealed carriers there.

I'm a staunch supporter of the right of law-abiding citizens to carry concealed, but also realize that even the best qualified and practiced shooters can't stop every bad thing from happening.

The problem here was the dense crowd, which worked to the shooter's advantage. It made it easy for him to quickly shoot a whole bunch of people, with a relatively high ratio of lethal shots.

[generic Brand]

It's obvious then what we have to do: overturn that pesky right to assemble. No more crowds!

[Tony]

Or the problem could equally be the shooter's legal access to high-capacity gun clips. The type used were once outlawed under the assault weapons ban.

[Citizen Nothing]

See! This is how it's done! Where's OhioOrkin?

[Pip]

Go suck a dick, Tony.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Hey Tony, why don't you cite specific instances in which the "assault weapons ban" actually prevented a crime from occurring?

We'll wait.

Good luck.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

The sad thing is how obvious it is that those who are the loudest proponents of the "assault weapons ban" universally have no clue what the law actually did.

Tony: hint: it did not make it illegal to buy, sell or own so-called "hi capacity" magazines. During that ten-year period, I saw lots of them for sale and used them several times.

[Tony]

My understanding was that it was illegal to manufacture them. Maybe it didn't work perfectly, but it was a tool that we had that we don't have anymore.

I think the onus is on those arguing for why it's necessary for people to be able to buy arsenal whose sole use is the mass murder of human beings.

[Marshall Gill]

whose sole use is the mass murder of human beings.

Citation required.

[Cyto]

Right.... the onus is on the people to show why the government shouldn't have a given power. That kinda turns the constitution on its head, doesn't it?

[Tony]

Cyto,

My argument is: one of government's primary responsibilities is securing the physical safety of human beings. That's why it's prudent to ban people from having pipe bombs. I simply fail to see a meaningful distinction between pipe bombs and high-capacity semi-automatic guns.

[Anonymous Coward]

one of government's primary responsibilities is securing the physical safety of human beings.

Wrong.

I simply fail to see a meaningful distinction between pipe bombs and high-capacity semi-automatic guns.

Willful ignorance is not an argument.

[SFC B]

I have friends who used homemade pipe bombs to clear tree stumps. There is zero reason the government should be able to stop them from doing so.

[Tony]

Ah, so pipe bombs are more useful than semi-automatic handguns.

[Tony]

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child......

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Maybe it didn't work perfectly at all.

Again, please cite a single instance in which the so-called "assault weapons ban" did anything to prevent a crime.

The AWB made it illegal to manufacture or import certain firearms and certain associated parts, like so-called "high-capacity" magazines. It did not outlaw the hundreds of thousands already in existence in the U.S., nor did it outlaw the purchase or sale of those. The only effect it had was to greatly increase the value of the firearms and magazines in existence when the "ban" went into effect."

And most of the so-called "assault weapons" that were supposedly "banned" were identified based solely on aesthetic features that had nothing to do with the "lethality" of the weapon - nothing about the caliber or power of the firearm. Instead, it was based on such silly things as whether the rifle had a bayonet mount or flash suppressor.

More gun control legislation from people who don't understand the first thing about guns.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

think the onus is on those arguing for why it's necessary for people to be able to buy arsenal whose sole use is the mass murder of human beings.

The assault weapons ban did not apply to firearms purchased by law enforcement.

So your proposition is that the reason LEOs have firearms is the mass murder of human beings?

[Michael Ejercito]

This is the reason .

[hmm]

Assault weapons ban. Now there's a piece of legislation that is chalked full of WTF through and through. Are you even proficient enough in arms to be aware of how fucked up and silly that legislation was.

[hmm]

Looks like someone else pointed out how fucking stupid that bill was. Now lets move on to how completely ass backwards the NFA is.

[robc]

And at least one of the tacklers was carrying, so a concealed carrier did stop the shooting. He just didnt need his firearm to do it in this particular case.

[kinnath]

Warping success into failure . . . .

http://www.slate.com/id/2280794/

But before we embrace Zamudio's brave intervention as proof of the value of being armed, let's hear the whole story. "I came out of that store, I clicked the safety off, and I was ready," he explained on Fox and Friends. "I had my hand on my gun. I had it in my jacket pocket here. And I came around the corner like this." Zamudio demonstrated how his shooting hand was wrapped around the weapon, poised to draw and fire. As he rounded the corner, he saw a man holding a gun. "And that's who I at first thought was the shooter," Zamudio recalled. "I told him to 'Drop it, drop it!'"

But the man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.

Zamudio agreed:

I was very lucky. Honestly, it was a matter of seconds. Two, maybe three seconds between when I came through the doorway and when I was laying on top of [the real shooter], holding him down. So, I mean, in that short amount of time I made a lot of really big decisions really fast. ? I was really lucky.

.
.
.

We're enormously lucky that Zamudio, without formal training, made the right split-second decisions. We can't count on that the next time some nut job starts shooting. I hope Arizona does train lawmakers and their aides in the proper use of firearms. I hope they remember this training if they bring guns to constituent meetings. But mostly, I hope they don't bring them.

[Cecil]

I wonder what decision a 'highly trained' police officer would have made in the same circumstance?

[Cyto]

In Chapel Hill North Carolina there was a campus shooting. The cops surrounded the guy on the quad but couldn't hit him. When he paused to reload a civilian (bartender no less) jumped from behind cover and tackled the shooter. The cops did manage to hit the bartender in the foot as he tackled the shooter. I bought him a drink at the bar he worked at in Atlanta when I met him a year later. Nice guy. Pretty humble about the whole thing too.

[Barry D]

You didn't think cops trained to clear obstacles so they could run TOWARDS a shooter, did you?

[Cecil]

I suspect we might have seen something similar to this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_baltimore_police_shooting

[Brett L]

Its amazing what liability does to instill caution in civilians. Maybe holding LEOs liable for their actions might have a similar effect?

[Johnny Longtorso]

The Economist: Krugman's toxic rhetoric
...Mr Loughner's obsession with language as a form of control seems rather less like Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin than Max Stirner, Michel Foucault, or even left-leaning linguists such as George Lakoff and Geoffrey Nunberg. Our own Johnson discusses speculation about the possible influence of one David Wynn Miller. But nobody's going to try to smear Max Stirner, George Lakoff, or David Wynn Miller in the pages of the New York Times by recklessly associating their teachings with the tragedy in Tucson because, well, that would be completely bonkers and, more importantly, Max Stirner, George Lakoff, and David Wynn Miller didn't just recapture the House....

[generic Brand]

Not sure if this is his same write-up in the NYT, but the comments, oh God the comments! How can people be THIS stupid??? (meant to be rhetorical, but feel free to answer)

[Cyto]

One meme in the comments there and here is "political rhetoric about second amendment remedies". The contention is that this rhetoric is a radical departure from the golden past, where politics was civil.

I think the commentariat forgets that we have had politicians that actually shot each other over disputes in the past. Including Presidents.

[generic Brand]

Sometimes I miss the old days where a Senator could literally beat the shit out of another Senator with his cane. Now standing up and shouting "You lie!" is seen as crossing the line.

[Vermont Gun Owner]

And so is whispering "Note true."

[Johnny Longtorso]

Newsweek's Evan Thomas: 'The health care bill is a disaster'

[OhioOrrin]

its an insurance reg bill not soylent green.

[WMD]

Soylent Green at least helped to solve the problem it attacked. HCR has not even done that.

[Almanian]

You're making me hungry

[MNG]

I'd like to apologize to some posters and eat some crow. Over the weekend it seemed to me that many cons were protesting too much and seeking out people trying to spin a "tenor of political rhetoric tied to shooting" meme. After leaving the world of NFL playoffs and entering the world of print, tv and radio media it seems there are indeed a slew of disgusting media types doing this. It's pathetic and stupid as there seems to be NO evidence of inspiration from Palin, Beck, etc., and further even if there were they would not be responsible but the shooter alone.

[Destrudo]

Wow, MNG. Is this really you? Now I may have to ratchet you up a little from zero on the respect-o-meter.

[Brett L]

MNG is no troll. He disagrees with most of the various Libertopias we try to put up here, but he's never dishonest about it. Except for his strange relationship with John. But that's on both sides. They fight because they can.

[Nancy Pelosi]

Are you serious? Are you serious?

[Trespassers W]

They fight because they can.

More accurately...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FoeYay

[prolefeed]

They fight because they can't get a room ...

fixed.

[Bender Bending Rodriguez]

I heard they fight because the make-up sex is amazing.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Ha! You just showed weakness.

[rather]

No,"showed" he's a man, and not a boy

[Tim]

That was sarcasm. Nobody gets sarcasm.

[Rather]

I thought it might be but then I read FOT's post 😉

[waffles]

are you being sarcastic?

[rather]

lol

[James Ard]

Hopefully you are the beginning of a flood of liberals walking back their comments. The left couldn't have come out looking any worse than it did on this one.

[VoteMuslimNoPork]

Take a look at the current mesh of videos on real clear ... a lot of people on the left are doubling down o the narrative.

[Tim]

Thank you.

[SIV]

I'd like to apologize to some posters and eat some crow

Post as "Crow-Eating Dumbass" AGAIN for a couple of months and we might think about forgiveness.

[Rather]

SIV...or you can just fuck his ass and GTFOI

[prolefeed]

I think him admitting a mistake once is sufficient and admirable, and far more than some here seem capable of.

[Rather]

Hmm, names?

[Marshall Gill]

I'd like to apologize to some posters and eat some crow.

While I wasn't one of them, and while I disagree with you about almost everything, well done.

[capitol l]

Weak.

That was only 3/5 of an apology.

[Rather]

lol

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

I have to give MNG credit where it's due. This was a pretty mature thing to do.

[Cecil]

Well done. You just showed honesty and class.

[cynical]

The optimist in me hopes that a lot more people like you are going to result in a bit of a backlash from the decent part of the left that will put the full retard partisan warriors in check for a bit. But the optimist in me is a sad and desperate thing, a tiny quavering voice that is drowned out by the static of the world.

[Rather]

Somehow "cynical" and the "optimist in me" leaves me smiling

[Mr. FIFY]

Good on ya, MNG. Too bad more people don't come to this conclusion.

Seriously... you nailed it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Very big of you, MNG.

[hmm]

Well, now we have an admission of guilt, on to the sentencing!!!

I say mandatory posting of wartyesque kittens in every thread!

[Destrudo]

The mugshot of Loughner is up there with Manson's on the list of all-time craziest stares. Jesus.

[Virginia]

Did he shave off his eyebrows? dude has a solid history of crazy-stare photos.

[Rather]

The smile reminded me of that jackass Tom DeLay's mugshot-sentenced to 3 years today for the I didn't know it was a "crime crime"

[Almanian]

Yeah, he's lookin' all "The Wall" there - spooky

[Montani Semper Liberi]

A look into the future of Obamacare.

[Rather]

"Arizona also restricted coverage of prosthetics, eliminated podiatric services, preventive dental services, and wellness and physical exams for adult Medicaid enrollees."

Not all of these are unreasonable cuts. I was stunned to learn Texas pays for braces for kids and adults up to 21 on Medicaid-purely for cosmetic reasons. Orthodontists advertize on billboards in Hispanic neighborhoods.

I would be interested in knowing the explanation for their denial-underlying issues that we are not privy to because of HIPPA

[Fist of Etiquette]

Obama to speak at memorial for Tucson victims today.

Good luck making that speech all about you, Mr. President.

[President Obama]

I believe that together we can get through this tragic assault by the tea party on America, just as this great nation came together and made history by electing the first black president.

[Destrudo]

"Let me be clear: I believe that we can come together and survive this assault by the tea party on our great nation, just as we were united in making history by electing the first black president."

[Tim]

Program your teleprompter carefully Mr. President.

[Complete Retard]

Good Morning, Reason!

[J sub D]

+1.73205081

[prolefeed]

@ J sub: ???

Is this some math nerd thing?

[Rather]

Note to self, don't ask prolofeed for math homework advice
http://www.tech-ex.net/2009/03.....-root.html

[Fist of Etiquette]

Scientists say a universal flu vaccine could be available within 10 years.

Putting the makers of Nyquil out of business? Yeah, right. And I'm sure I'll be driving to get that vaccine in my H2O-fueled car.

[Tim]

Unless the Gubmint decides it costs too much to keep all those old farts around who get killed by the flu every year.

[Mr. FIFY]

Never happen. NyQuil is the nighttime sneezin' snifflin' bitchin' moanin' lemme get some doddamn rest medicine... and the common cold will never be cured.

[vousy zu?ivosti]

This vaccine will become mandatory.

[Fluffy]

I strongly suspect that Randall Flagg is behind this talk of a universal flu "vaccine".

[Tim]

Monsters coming!

[sage]

How's Your Pork?

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Cibola, Cibola, bumpty-bumpty-bump!

[Almanian]

My life for YOU!! MY LIFE FOR YOU!!!!

[Nooge]

Randall Flagg is behind power mullets, too.

[Walking Dude]

You can be my sidekick anytime, Fluffy.

[Marshall Gill]

Serious question. Would you go to Vegas or Boulder? Assuming, of course, that you can avoid the nuclear ending.

[Fluffy]

If I see all the people Balko writes about going to Vegas, and a bunch of hippies following a crazy old religious lady to Boulder, I go to...

...the Shenandoah Valley. With a bunch of solar power equipment and an M-16.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

"An" M-16?

I'm thinking SKS, M1 Garand, M14A1, just for a good start.

But then again, I'm one of those gun-loving, violent rhetoric-spouting haters.

[Fluffy]

I'm concerned that if I started accumulating multiple guns, my Shenandoah hideaway would look less like a solar-powered Monticello and more like a gun shop owner being featured on Hoarders.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Just keep your guns neatly organized in safes covered with raised-panel, wood-framed doors, to maintain that Monticello feel.

[Rather]

lol

[R C Dean]

The problem with all those guns is all the different kinds of ammo you'll need.

Personally, I need to stock only .45, 9mm (for Mrs. Dean), .308, and .300 Win Mag. Oh, and 12 gauge, of course.

[Tim]

What, no 120mm?

[robc]

My valley of choice is a bit further from civilization than Shenandoah. Other side of Appalachians. And none of your damn business. 🙂

[Virginia]

Plenty of white tail?

[Marshall Gill]

I didn't specifically mean you, Fluffy, it is a question I asked myself, also. Adding a third location is cheating, though.

As you say, all the criminals would go to Vegas, but that also implies that Boulder would be pretty dull. I usually lean toward Vegas.

[Fluffy]

All the corrupt cops go to Vegas, too.

Vegas is basically a very target rich environment for Radley, post-Superflu.

I'm not sure it's cheating. If I start having post-plague dreams that the devil wants me to go to Vegas, I ain't going. And if I have dreams where an old black lady wants me to go to Boulder to fight the devil, I'm drawing a 500 mile radius circle on the map around Boulder and not going anywhere inside that circle.

You all can work out all that destiny stuff among yourselves. I will be in Virginia figuring out how to grow my own tabacky and bottle my own wine.

[The devil]

GPS is a bitch

[Stephen King]

just stay off the side of the road Fluffy

[Old Mexican]

Politico: New gun control measures in wake of the shooting unlikely to pass.

Indeed, but it will open the door for the proponents of the law to say "See? You see? This new congreess is NOT really interested in the safety of our elected officials or of 9 year old little girls!"

The bodies were not yet cold and yet the buzzards already dropped down to feast from them...

[VoteMuslimNoPork]

Never let a crisis go to waste

[OhioOrrin]

there is no civilian requirement for a large-capacity, after-market magazine like this lunatic used.

[Virginia]

that's some pure authoritarian horseshit you got there.

what other weapons would you like to deem "of no sporting use" and take away from us? how bout the gun that 81 y.o. woman used to scare off that serial rapist? start with that one.

[Troy]

Since when the fuck "need" a necessary or sufficient premise for exercising rights?

What annoys me about trolls like this is that if someone was shooting at him, he'd sure as fuck want a high capacity magazine.

Now go back to that shithole in norwalk or whatever Ohio shithole you're from.

[Almanian]

East Cleveland, by the looks of him

[OhioOrrin]

that ridiculous middle school argument could be used for RPG's. >be proud ur right to buy a 33 rnd mag meant this lunatic didnt have to reload after shooting just 16 prople!

[Jordan]

The fact that some people abuse freedom is not an argument to restrict it. You can't type a coherent sentence, but you're still allowed a PC and internet connection.

[OhioOrrin]

so a 33 rnd mag = freedom?

[doctor]

Don't worry, scrote. There are plenty of 'tards out there living really kick-ass lives. My first wife was 'tarded. She's a pilot now.

[kinnath]

I prefer this to the alternative.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

There is no "civilian" need for a Hummer either. Or an S-Class Mercedes. So we should outlaw those too, because, after all, nobody really "needs" them.

And nobody "needs" granite countertops or stainless steel appliances, so they should be outlawed too.

Hell, nobody "needs" 52-inch flatscreen TVs, so ban the fuckers!

You get the idea.

Asshole.

[Almanian]

But....but...but...NEWCULAR MISSILE SILO IN YOUR BACK YARD11!!

[Brett L]

I see you've read your Vinge, too. No telling when the New Mexicans are gonna march on Kansas. But when they do, we'll be ready.

[Almanian]

I won't feel safe till I have an Abrams tank in the garage and at least one more rocket launcher.

Yeah, I said one more...

[Marshall Gill]

Sharks with fricken laser beams on their heads!

[Liberal Douchebag]

Great ideas!

I'll forward those to the San Francisco city council for vote to ban them.

[Mainer]

"And nobody "needs" granite countertops or stainless steel appliances"

You haven't met my wife.

[Letters from Zedelghem]

Evil KKKorpations implanted that need in all of our wife's heads!!!11!

[Nick]

Irrelevant.

[Old Mexican]

Re: OhioOrrin,

there is no civilian requirement for a large-capacity, after-market magazine like this lunatic used.

Now that we're into absolutist assertions, I also have one: there is no way Santa Claus exists, and there is no way unicorns exist.

And there is no way you have anything useful to say, OO.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Ministry of Plenty will determine your civilian requirements, amirite, Orrin?

[VoteMuslimNoPork]

Well ... at least it's more honest: http://www.tnr.com/blog/willia.....commitment

[SFC B]

The problem with this story is this:

"... Urgent Psychiatric Care Center in Phoenix said that in the absence of specific threats, parents or authorities might well have failed to meet the tests for involuntary commitment under Arizona law..."

There appears to have been specific threats made against specific people.

[Nick]

Let's start with William Galston. That fucker is nuts. He wants to lock up people who have committed no crime and without due process!

[P Brooks]

Sometimes there's no good way to plug a bad guy in a crowdful of people.

I find it mildly reassuring that the thing didn't turn into a giant random-fire exercise, which is one of the objections inevitably raised by the anti-carry crowd. Apparently, there were armed people in the area who did not fire because they couldn't get a clean shot.

[Rather]

In a nearby drugstore, Zamudio heard the gunfire and, instead of fleeing to save his own life, raced across the parking lot to the action, fully prepared to use his own 9mm handgun to stop the carnage.

"I came out of that store and I clicked the safety off and I was ready," Zamudio told Fox News.

"Somebody was hurting somebody around me. I had my hand on my gun... in my jacket pocket."

Zamudio said he recognized that life could have played out far differently if he had wandered over from the store moments earlier to see why the crowd had gathered.

"Maybe I would have been able to stop him. Maybe I would have died," he said.

Zamudio insisted he did the right thing by taking matters into his own hands, and by preparing to use his own weapon if needed.

"This is how we need to react. We're Americans, and we shouldn't be afraid," he said

http://www.news24.com/World/Ne.....n-20110110

[SFC B]

Reading accounts like that and the interview w/ the father of Christina Greene makes me think that this is going to explode (metaphorically), and explode (metaphorically) violently (metaphorically) in the faces of the people who were calling for restricting speech.

[Montani Semper Liberi]

I'm sure if Congress bans high capacity magazines, no one will be able to find them. They will all spontaneously disappear into the ether.

[Fluffy]

Right, because you need such really impressive high-tech equipment to build your own.

After the high-capacity magazine ban, I look forward to the scrap metal ban, the lathe ban, the micrometer ban, etc.

[OhioOrrin]

here's ur koolaid right here. no need to scrounge in the recycle bin...

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

You may mumbo dogface to the bananan patch, keister.

[J sub D]

Right, because you need such really impressive high-tech equipment to build your own.
I agree. Using tin snips and pliers are far beyond the skills of your average nutcase.

[BakedPenguin]

Right, because you need such really impressive high-tech equipment to build your own.

Tartaric Acid is a schedule 1 precursor, IIRC. As in, buy some and expect the DEA (or SWAT) to show up quickly.

I remember talking to a chemistry student laughing his ass off about this. He said he could make Tartaric Acid with Cream of Tartar and household items.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

It's spelled aether.

Just like all those pre-Clinton ban mags evaporated in a cloud of phlogiston after 1994.

Not like they suddenly became MORE valuable or anything.

[kinnath]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/.....tml?hpt=T1

Tucson, Arizona (CNN) -- Tucson just isn't that kind of town, says Christin Gilmer.

Gilmer is referring to the actions of Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas, which has made its name protesting the funerals of people who died of AIDS, gay people, soldiers and even Coretta Scott King.

But when the church announced its intention to picket the funeral of a 9-year-old girl -- one of six people who died Saturday during the attempted assassination of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords -- Gilmer and others put their feet down.

Tucson is a "caring, loving, peaceful community," according to Gilmer, who said two of the six people killed were friends.

"For something like this to happen in Tucson was a really big shock to us all," she said. "Our nightmare happened when we saw Westboro Baptist Church was going to picket the funerals."

[Brett L]

What's the Libertopia view on tarring and feathering? If we use a soft enough tar that it doesn't cause burns, could we tar and feather the Westboro guys? Sort of a spontaneous community action.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

I'm thinking more along the lines of what legally would be considered a "lynching," although no rope or trees would be involved. Just a good, old-fashioned ass-kicking. And I mean wearing your stompin' boots and literally kicking these subhuman pieces of shit to the curb.

If that were my daughter, I would not be able to be held accountable for my actions with regard to these fucksticks.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

I must apologive for my previous comment. It might be perceived by some as violent, hateful rhetoric and incite imminent violent or lawless action.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

I have no idea what apologive means. I apologise for my previous statement regarding my previous statement.

[Barbara Billingsley]

Stewardess, I speak give.

[rather]

"apologive"- To give an insincere apology because I fear SWAT will come over to kick my ass, shoot my dog, and make my daughter cry

[Steve]

I do not advocate violence, but when one uses "fightin' words," I will not be sad when these guys get a swift (and oh so well deserved) kick in the arse.

[robc]

Not sure I would support tar and feathering the Westboro guys. I support the rights of scum bags.

However, if Dallas Green happened to kill a few guys picketing his granddaughters funeral, I could see a series of hung juries in the future.

Is "he needed killin" a valid defense in Arizona?

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

According to John Grisham, it can be.

[Mr. FIFY]

Honey and sawdust, Brett. And conveniently forget there's a patch of fire ants and termites nearby.

[Mike Laursen]

WTF. What's their rationale for pocketing the little girl's funeral?

[kinnath]

Lots of cameras

[Madbiker]

probably goes like this: the girl was allowed to die by god as punishment for Americas tolerance of gays. wash, rinse, repeat

[Virginia]

If someone infringes on their rights, then they sue and add to their war chest. Profit is their rationale.

[Charlotte Sometimes]

Exactly, Virginia. Not only are they all related, they are apparently quite fertile--kids make up a hefty portion of the little group. And they film EVERYTHING. Basically they say outrageous things, dare you to make a move, and if you do they successfully sue you. It IS all about profits. . . and camera time. She is a hateful loony, but Shirley Phelps-Roper knows the law. And they love all the attention. Cameras aside, I am pretty sure it is the presence of all the children that has kept anyone in Topeka (and elsewhere) from actually going completely circus-chimp on the group.

[cynical]

Their religion states that you can only go to heaven if you're beaten to death by an angry mob.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Well let's take up a collection to help them get there.

[tarran]

The way they earn... make... er get money is by pissing off rhe local PD to the point that they get arrested or otherwise fucked with, at which point they sue for having their civil rights violated. The town usually settles and the church embers look for more victims to fleece.

Cases where the Westborough church is involved call for Phyrric $1 judgements.

Of course in a Libertarian political order they wouldn't get anywhere close to a funeral; no road owner would qelcome thir protests on to his or her property.

[CaptainSmartass]

That's not necessarily true. Just look at ChicFilA and their support of anti-gay groups. There's always someone willing to sacrifice their bottom line to support their pet cause.

[Draco]

Yesterday I was "lucky" enough to catch Chris Matthews on Hardball browbeating a leader of one of the Tea Party organizations. Chris, God love him, was making the "case" that America has had more assassination attempts and violent political acts than any other country on earth, and challenged the Tea Party guy to prove him wrong. He even gave him 3 days to Google it, and see what he came up with. Of course, Chris' point was that the continued honoring of the 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms was lunacy after this long and sorry history of political violence. The Tea Party guy was pathetic in his response. He refused to accept Chris' assertion, but offered no counter argument.

If I were there, I would have looked Chris in the eye and said "Chris, this nation has been the freest nation on Earth over its long lifetime. It's quite possible that there are fewer acts of overt violence against authority in other, less free nations. But like the father of the little girl shot on Saturday, I'm happy that I live in a free and open society, rather than an authoritarian state. How about you?"

[OhioOrrin]

spoken like a white male.

[Spoonman.]

You're awful at this.

[Pip]

^^THIS^^

[Almanian]

Racist!

[Mr. FIFY]

Racist prickism, Orrin, will get you nowhere in life.

[OhioOrrin]

describing his gender & ethnicity is not racism. he's obviously a white male since no one w a more complete historical understanding of the us would even think it.

[Draco]

Perhaps our friend Orrin is a believer in polylogism? Ludwig von Mises has waxed eloquent on the topic from time to time if memory serves.

[doctor]

Don't worry, scrote. There are plenty of 'tards out there living really kick-ass lives. My first wife was 'tarded. She's a pilot now.

[Mongo]

We're a huge, complex country -- lots of stuff happens....

[Uncle Joe]

It's almost as if Matthews doesn't 'count' violent political acts when performed by the state.. this little establishmentarian idiot proves useful indeed. Ho, ho, ho!

[Johnitalia]

So Matthews assertion is that the only reason for the 2nd amendment is solely for the sake of committing political violence? Nice. It wouldn't be at all so I can protect my home from an intruder.

[Johnny Longtorso]

Chris, God love him, was making the "case" that America has had more assassination attempts and violent political acts than any other country on earth

Doesn't an average week in Mexico beat any year on record for the US?

[BakedPenguin]

Yes, but that won't send a thrill up Chris' leg.

[Old Mexican]

U.S. official in charge of overseeing money spent in Afghanistan resigns amid criticism.

"They will now have a job overseeing the Social Security trust fund..."

[P Brooks]

when the church announced its intention to picket the funeral of a 9-year-old girl

WTF? Did they say why?

[Brett L]

Apparently God hates little girls born on 9/11/01, too. They're media whores, this is going to be a media covered funeral. Anything else is window dressing.

[capitol l]

I am beginning to think that Phelps is a fake engaging in agitprop in order to see if Americans will stick with free expression in the face of Really Fucked Up Speech.

It's just too over the top anymore.

[kinnath]

There's a not-so-small part of me that wishes Jared had shown an interest in Phelps instead of Giffords.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

That part of me is much more well-developed.

[NoVAHockey]

Wonder if those bikers who "shield" soldiers' funerals from the Westboro gang will show up. can't recall their name.

[Nick]

Freedom Riders?

[kinnath]

Continuing the CNN article:

They're planning an "angel action" -- with 8- by 10-foot "angel wings" worn by participants and used to shield mourners from pickets. The actions were created by Coloradan Romaine Patterson, who was shocked to find the Topeka church and its neon signs outside the 1999 funeral of Matthew Shepherd, a young gay man beaten and left on a fence to die in Laramie, Wyoming.

[generic Brand]

The reason as I've read it is because the girl and her family are members of a Roman Catholic Church and "God hates Catholics" according to the Westboro church website. More likely though, the reason is because it is a national event, sure to be covered by the media, and for whatever reason (drink!) the media loves to cover these stories rather than just let the idiots drone on and not give them any attention. The same thing happened with Terry Jones. Just ignore the crazies!

[P Brooks]

"Honey, there's no place to carry the bear spray in this dress, and I don't want to carry a purse. Will you hold it for me?"

[P Brooks]

I wonder what Sheriff Dumpling's crowd control plan looks like? He finds conflict and confrontation distasteful, apparently; maybe he will invite the Westboro congregation to a drum circle.

[VeenBeener]

LOL, Gun Control Measures are for "honest" people. They will never stop criminals from getting firearms!

anon-tools.it.tc

[capitol l]

Not laugh out loud our silicon friend, not laugh out loud : (

[P Brooks]

Politico: New gun control measures in wake of the shooting unlikely to pass.

Chris Matthews and Eugene Robinson will be inconsolable.

[Brett L]

If only they were pining for the fjords. (Is that too confrontational in tone? Am I inspiring a climate of hate?)

[Almanian]

You're wishing them....well, not DEAD, since the parrot was just resting after a prolonged squawk...so, no.

[Mainer]

Squat, not squawk.

[Almanian]

No, he definitely squawked - that was me havin' a squat earlier

[Brett L]

Right. It was all just a... what-do-yer-call-it when its the same backwards and forwards.

[Montani Semper Liberi]

Notlob.

[Nick]

Palindrome.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Is that a Sarah Palindrome, you racist teafucking ratbagger?

[Pro Libertate]

Mammogram.

[J sub D]

Arnold Fields' decision to step down comes after key members of Congress urged President Barack Obama to dismiss him for incompetence and mismanagement.

Fortunately the rebuilding effoirts in Iraq have been free of "incompetence and mismanagement".

[Nick]

You have to be a terrible fuck up to get fired from a government job with the reasons of "incompetence" and "mismanagement."

[P Brooks]

This just in:

Government "Oil Spill Commission" want to nationalize the oil exploration and extraction industry.

(via Bloomberg TV news)

One nice snip: "This will drive smaller players out of business, but that's a good thing."
Because if there's anything this administration despises, it's small independent actors fucking up their enlightened industrial policy.

[Virginia]

Nice, I look forward to the future/former CEO of a domestic Gazprom rotting in Federal prison for criticizing the President.

[VoteMuslimNoPork]

So people have dug up Jared Loughner's forum posts.

Here he is [Handle is Erad3] arguing that NASA is a hoax: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/.....593100/pg1

Holy fuck at that logic ...

[nobody]

I wonder if he somehow injured his Wernicke area. His sentence constructions are crazy.

[Slut Bunwalla]

Wow. For someone so obsessed with grammar, he sure is a terrible writer.

[P Brooks]

arguing that NASA is a hoax:

Hoax, swindle, what's the diff?

[Brett L]

Buzz Aldrin won't punch you out for calling it a swindle, but don't get in his face about the moon landing being a hoax.

[Pro Libertate]

One of the great moments in the history of manned spaceflight.

[capitol l]

Especially since Buzz had about 40 years on the guy he socked.

[Pro Libertate]

Just think about it. You've done one of the most awesome things ever, and there are only eight other guys alive who can claim the same. And only one of those can one-up you.

Yeah, I'm slugging the guy.

[capitol l]

You should check out some interviews with Aldrin, he has to be the most entertaining astronaut. He's an honest sort; very rare anymore.

[Brett L]

I wouldn't want to take that punch at any age.

[Pro Libertate]

Space karate.

[Brett L]

Speaking of space karate... I watched Elvis's 1968 comeback special in honor of his birthday this weekend. The interlude where he uses his karate to beat up pirates while wearing a Canadian tuxedo is awesome. (Was watching at a bar without sound, but this was what it appeared to be. We watched the thing on loop 3x, and couldn't concoct a better story.)

[Pro Libertate]

Ever since I learned that Elvis was a HUGE Python fan, I've found a new appreciation for the King.

[VoteMuslimNoPork]

There is a difference between saying NASA is wasting tax payer dollars and saying it's a fake because:

"If the air supply supports the NASA Space Shuttle mission for the time in orbit then the crew is able to breathe with the correct amount of oxygen for the time in orbit.

The crew is not able to breathe with the correct amount of oxygen for the time in orbit.

Consequently, the air supply doesn't support the NASA Space Shuttle mission for the time in orbit "

I mean, yikes ...

[Krugman]

I don't see a problem with the way he writes. We need to spend money to make money to spend money. Perfect logic.

[Pain]

From one of his posts-
"The name calling is about to cease!"

The way this guy writes is just crazy.

[James Ard]

Everything this administration does is an attempt to protect their big money corporate friends from competition from little guys.

[MNG]

I particularly bothered by the Palin baiting. There is a long tradition of using military terms in non-military contexts (in football we talk about "blitzing" or we might say that "the Packers are going to target Vick"). There is a long tradition of using this language in politics (a "campaign"). Does the media forget the famous "war room" of the Clinton campaign? Targets over people you'd like to see voted out are not incitements to violence. This is a tower of stupid.

[Almanian]

tower of stupid

Nice!

*two thumbs up*

[Tony]

Even leaving the bullseye map aside, there's obviously been a lot of gun-related rhetoric coming from the Republicans, most disturbingly from Sharron Angle, who seemed to tacitly endorse shooting politicians you disagree with.

I don't think they are responsible for the Tucson shooting, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be ashamed of themselves.

[MNG]

I'm not sure any of that rhetoric has been any more inflammatory than much of what Thomas Jefferson had to say Tony...I think "second amendment remedies" was a stupid thing to say, but I don't think it incites violence...

[Cecil]

And here we see the difference between MNG's honest disagreement and the obscenely stupid partisan fuckstickery that is Tony.

[Mr. FIFY]

MNG is definitely getting it. Tony, you're lagging behind. Very sad.

[Tony]

I am not blaming GOP rhetoric for the shooting...

But I will be damned before I start making excuses for them in light of it.

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

No excuses need to be made if they are not to blame for it. Which they clearly are not.

[Tony]

No, they're to blame for stirring up overheated anger and potentially violence for partisan gain.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not blaming GOP rhetoric for the shooting...

But I will be damned before I start making excuses for them in light of it.

Tony, seeing as how you (or anyone else for that matter) have yet to make any definitive link between this plague of "violent rhetoric" and the Tucson shooting, one must wonder why in the fuck "rhetoric" is the first thing to dance across your mind when someone brings the shooting spree up.

Is it a Pavlovian reaction? Or maybe you just can't think of anything more relevent to the topic?

[Tony]

AC, it wasn't my idea to bring it up.

I'm just standing on principle here, in that I'm not gonna let right-wing demagogues who use dog whistle language to implicitly call for the murdering of political opponents to get away with that behavior just because a politician happened to have been shot in the head. It doesn't make sense to me at all.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know it wasn't your idea, Tony. You don't make up the talking points, you just dutifully repeat them.

Leaving aside the insubstantial nature of the "rhetoric", you have yet to draw any direct causal link between the Tucson shooting and the people you accuse of engaging in the "rhetoric."

When bushwhacking once again becomes an acceptable means of dealing with political differences and Senators are being assaulted on the floor by other Senators, then I will accept your whining about "rhetoric driving people to violence."

Until, kindly crack open a few history books about American politics and STFU.

[Tony]

Let me put it more simply: Sarah Palin can go fuck herself. I'm concerned about the real victims of this, and she's not one of them, even though she probably thinks she is.

[Anonymous Coward]

Awww, is concern troll concerned?

When are you holding your candlelight vigil outside of Judge John Roll's house?

[Pip]

Go suck a cock, Tony.

[Michael Ejercito]

What a faggot he is.

[Jersey Patriot]

Start with some shame for your own party.

[R C Dean]

a lot of gun-related rhetoric coming from the Republicans

Yeah, some muckety-muck was on the news not long ago talking about bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Skinny guy, kind of a funny name. Starts with O, maybe?

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

Big ears, well tanned, right?

Oh, racist.

[Tony]

Thank you for so helpfully supplying the desperate Drudgeian talking points du jour. Where would we be without you?

I suppose that single comment completely negates the long pattern of gun-related demagoguery from the GOP?

Ugh, who cares anymore. 30,000 people die by guns in this country each year. But nothing matters quite as much as Sarah Palin's tragic oppression at the hands of the lamestream media.

[Cancer]

30,000? Amateurs.

[Automobiles]

Yeah, I know, right?

[Heart Disease]

You're all a bunch of pussies

[Tony]

Because 10 preventable 9/11s a year resulting from guns is something to just glibly dismiss.

[Michael Ejercito]

Like these ?

[Brett L]

70% of all gun deaths were suicides. Accidental gun deaths were something like 800 in 2009. That leaves about 8500 deaths by firearm from intentional shooting.

[Tony]

USA USA!

[Anonymous Coward]

In 2007, 42,031 died of motor-vehicle related traffic injuries.

Motor-vehicles are deadlier than guns.

Come on, Tony. Join with me to ban cars and we will have the promised utopia of light-rail.

[Rather]

Tony, the Democrats have used the same map-frankly, I thought the same graphic artist made them!

[Barely Suppressed Rage]

But ... but ... the Dem's map had bullseye targets on them, not crosshairs!

Apparently, that makes all the difference, when you're in denial-land.

[Tony]

They weren't crosshairs at all on the Palin map, according to one of her flunkies. They were "surveyors symbols." Of course said flunky needed help from the hard-hitting journalist interviewing her on FOX News to come up with that one.

[No do In this hunt but]

"Unnoted by Giffords then, or Krugman now, is the routine use of similar language and imagery by both parties in a culture obsessed with "battleground" states. Indeed, a nearly identical map, included in a Democratic Leadership Committee publication in 2004, featured nine bullseyes over regions where Republican candidates were considered vulnerable that year, and was accompanied by a caption reading: TARGETING STRATEGY. A smaller caption, beneath the bullseyes, read: BEHIND ENEMY LINES. The map illustrated an article on campaign strategy by Will Marshall of the Progressive Policy Institute."

http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....eap-shots/

[Tony]

I'll make any excuse for my party.

[Tony]

I believe my issue in this instance was Palin's ridiculous lying. She's done more than anyone to admit responsibility, first by deleting the map then lying about its meaning.

[rather]

Tony, she is a politician and acts as one. It would be political idiocy NOT to delete any inflammatory material after an unpredictable crisis.

It is SOP for all political parties and a "dammed if you don't, damned if you do" dilemma.

I don't believe for a second that the map was meant to incite deaths by a crazed gunman. Political disagreement should not be based on the criticism of a universally well-used tool but on her policies, ergo it weakens your criticism-legitimate or not, the argument becomes disingenuous

[Tony]

I don't give a crap about the stupid map.

But I give even less of a crap about defending Sarah Palin for anything. If she has egg on her face, good. She is one of the most visible contributors to ignorance and anger in this country, and whether she specifically has anything to do with the crime being discussed, it certainly doesn't help anything.

[rather]

"But I give even less of a crap about defending Sarah Palin for anything." This is where we part ways Tony; I don't care to compromise my ethics because it is inconvenient to the facts.

Honestly, I'd vote for the first female POTUS, because ultimately that is what I want more than any political group's philosophy.

Presently, I'll argue for an even playing field because I know it will increase the chances of a female President , or for that matter a gay POTUS too.

[Devil Inchoate]

So you think she should not have removed it?

I guarantee that a thousand times more people have now seen the map now that Palin critics have plastered it all over the internet. So please be consistent in your thinking.

Citation for Palin lying?

[Tony]

Citation for Palin lying?

Her mouth moved.

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't you know that shooting someone with a bow and arrow is morally superior to shooting them with a gun?

[Pip]

Go suck a dick, Tony.

[rather]

Are you mad at Tony or just pro gay rights? 😉

[Pip]

Both

[CaptainSmartass]

If Tony could suck a dick, he would be sucking a dick.

Tony is not sucking a dick.

Therefore, Tony cannot suck a dick.

[Fluffy]

Tony, I am a gigantic pussy.

I have very low pain tolerance and [outside of the internet] don't like conflict a whole hell of a lot.

But there are things that the state could do that would bring forth a violent reaction from even a big pussy like me.

If the state decided to try to re-enslave African-Americans, for example. Or if the state decided that all Muslims had to be put into internment camps. Stuff like that. If things like that happened, I could probably be persuaded to undertake violence against state officials.

Therefore, it seems clear to me that the mere accusation that people are "implicitly caling for violence" really means nothing at all. Every last one of us should have circumstances under which we'd engage in political violence - if we're men, and not worms.

So the important question really isn't if the rhetoric we hear is violent, or "hateful", or "divisive". The only real question is whether it's proportional.

And as soon as we start talking about proportion, it's a different conversation. Especially considering the fact that the ubiquitous nature of hyperbole in our discourse makes most discussions of proportionality moot. "I was using hyperbole!" is the magic get out of jail free card.

[Fuck off]

"I am a gigantic pussy... a big pussy like me". Fluffy, can you send your pic? I need it for the cute kitty contest

[J sub D]

Scientists say a universal flu vaccine could be available within 10 years.

That should be right about the time we get controlled nuclear fusion.

2121 is going to be an awesome year.

[Almanian]

I thought we'd have fission by then? Or am I getting my nukes backward....?

[robc]

Weve had fission for ~80 years.

[Clich? Bandit]

July 16th 1945. 66 years. It was called trinity. Palin's got a relative whose name starts with TR. So it follows that Palin did it ... or something.

[MNG]

On NPR's Fresh Air they had the guy who wrote the WaPo gun series recently and you should have heard the host flail around trying to fit the round peg of gun control into the square hole of what happened. She asked about AZ's lenient concealed carry law (heavens forbid allowing people to carry their guns without seeking government approval first!). Perhaps sensing the difficulty of positing tighter laws in this area as a solution she said "if there had been tighter carry laws and the police noticed a bulge in this guys clothese, could they have questioned him? Without such a law would they have been barred from questioning him?"

The stupid was incredible.

[JD]

Questioned by what police? The police in this situation did what they always do--show up five minutes after the fact to take witness statements.

[DJF]

Wrong, I bet they also put up that yellow tape.

[Isaac Bartram]

Ah, I just love the way Terry Gross uses that same breathlessly earnest tone (I suppose she thinks it makes her sound like an intulekshual) whether she's interviewing Will Ferrell or the guy who invented a cancer cure.

[P Brooks]

I was initially surprised to hear there apparently wasn't any security at that event. I still say, "Good for her."

Those days are undoubtedly gone forever; those narcissistic morons are busily trying to figure out how the taxpayer is going to provide 24/7 security for them, and everyone they know.

The more I think about it, I cannot help wondering how many "friendly fire" casualties* there might have been if the cops had shown up "in time".

*Particularly since a Baltimore cop was apparently shot and killed by somebody on his own team, the other night, as he was trying to break up a big bar fight.

[capitol l]

I saw Jason Altmire on teevee here in p-burgh last night. He was agitating for increased security for congressthings to ensure that citizens would be safe. Big ol' fashioned wtf for that one.

[capitol l]

Oh, I forgot: Sociopath!

[BakedPenguin]

Who - Loughner, or Altmire?

[Rep. Pete King]

"Those days are undoubtedly gone forever"

You better goddamn well believe it! Why do think I'm on live tv right now shitting my pants? Oh, and BTW gimmie all your guns, too, thanks.

[MNG]

I saw Heath Shuler is going to carry to protect himself. Good for him, though I hope his aim has improved from his NFL days...

[Brett L]

As long as the guy isn't wearing the same color shirt, he should be golden.

[Cyto]

I'll believe that universal flu vaccine when I see it. I used to work with some of the pioneers in hemagglutinin and neuraminidase sequencing and vaccine production. Both of those proteins proved to be notoriously mutable. Getting a vaccine that will work is exceptionally difficult. When I was in grad school the focus was on understanding the active site of the molecule and designing a drug or vaccine for that location (because mutations there would affect the function of the protein, so it is not very mutable). The first 3d crystallography of the neuraminidase protein made the cover of Nature around 1989. Still no vaccine or drug.

Since many currently circulating strains are direct descendants of the pandemic strains, I can see how a vaccine against that strain would be widely effective, but a "universal vaccine"? I'd have to see it to believe it.

[Pain]

I generally ignore anything that someone says is going to be available in "10 years." This sounds like the perpetual "fusion in 20 years" they have been saying every few years since the 50's. If you don't have the research to make it happen in a couple years what makes you think everything is going to fall in to place in 10 years?

Having worked in the clinical research field I know that from initial drug conception to market takes about 10 years. But that assumes the drug works exactly as the researches thought it would and passes with flying colors through every test in between. And that almost never happens. Most drug ideas fail or at least fail to live up to expectations.

[Nick]

But, but, but free healthcare for everyone requires drug makers to charge nothing because they aren't supposed to put time and effort and research and money into this and failures never really happen. Use the fucking magic unicorn farts you assholes! That's what they're there for!

[Pro Libertate]

I'll have you know that fusion is merely ten years away now.

[kinnath]

Jon Stewart via Salon:

http://www.salon.com/news/gabr.....a_shooting

[VoteMuslimNoPork]

He had a decent point half-way through ... and then he started rambling. The whole "Draw a line of causation" thing was pretty well said ... and he's right "You can't outsmart crazy, crazy always finds a way."

[SFC B]

Sullivan has an entry titled "Rush to Judgment". I thought it was going to be a mea culpa for him spending the weekend blaming Palin's Vagina for killing six people.

Nope. He doubles down on the "right-wingers caused this".

[Fluffy]

Andrew Sullivan is apparently too stupid to realize that he just undermined the case for gay rights.

This stupid bastard is so BOUND and DETERMINED to stick by his rush to judgment that he openly throws the 1st Amendment in the trash can, and stomps all over gay rights, too. Not that he'd realize it, because of his stupefying intellectual dishonesty.

[????? ??????]

Thanks

[alaamiah]

overseeing money spent in Afghanistan

[alaamiah]

of overseeing money spent in