Reason TV: Where Are the Female Libertarians? Allison Gibbs on the Ladies of Liberty Alliance

From Ayn Rand to Isabel Paterson, some of the most important figures in the modern movement for liberty have been women. So why aren't there more female libertarians today?

Reason.tv's Tim Cavanaugh sat down with Allison Gibbs, founder and executive director of the the Ladies of Liberty Alliance, at the Libertopia festival in Hollywood, California. Gibbs says that, although the pretentious and argumentative nature of the libertarian movement has been a turn off to women, she is optimistic about the future. She points out that LOLA is growing rapidly and notes that libertarianism is especially popular among young women.

Approximately 6 minutes.

Camera by Zach Weissmueller and Adam Hawk Jensen. Edited by Paul Detrick. Music is "Need Some Glue" by Fresh Body Shop (Magnatune Records).

Go to Reason.tv for downloadable versions and subscribe to Reason.tv's YouTube channel to receive automatic notification when new material goes live.

Comments

[Alan Vanneman]

"pretentious and argumentative"? Yeah, that nails it.

[BakedPenguin]

Alan, you're a movie critic, aren't you?

While I'm not saying that your reviews are necessarily pretentious, it's not exactly a profession that exudes that down-to-earth-ness. Unless you think talking about how Alain Resnais uses screen space and defies traditional temporal unity is a discussion a couple of Iowa farmers might be having right now.

[Episiarch]

Alan reviewed My Dinner With Andre and found it very down-to-earth. Common, even. I mean, my butler watches such populist garbage; how could I?

[Pro Libertate]

Can that movie be watched without thinking of Wally Shawn in a battle of wits with the Man in Black?

[moob]

No, that would be inconceivable

[Alan Vanneman]

I've never reviewed either Alain Resnais nor My Dinner. I did give an enthusiastic thumb's up (if you know what I mean) to the Pamela Anderson Comedy Roast http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/53/53pam.php and Charlie's Angels http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/54/charlies.php

[Episiarch]

If you gave Charlie's Angels a thumbs up, Vanneman, you are vastly more evil than I ever imagined. If you say you gave Michael Bay a thumbs up, ever, you might just be Satan himself.

[Pro Libertate]

That raises an interesting ontological question: Is approving of Bay worse than being Bay?

[Episiarch]

No. There is nothing ontological about it.

[Pro Libertate]

Okay, make it in epistemological question if you prefer. I don't think you answered, either way.

[Pro Libertate]

An epistemological question.

[Tim]

He's epissedem me off.

[Episiarch]

So why aren't there more female libertarians today?

Because being a libertarian requires reason?

ZING

Thank you, my misogynistic doppelganger will be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress, because she's on her period and if you don't she might attack you.

[Passive Aggressive Stalker]

Is that the best you can come up with, you sexy sexy man?

I've been watching you Epi. Watching you sleep. You're going to be mine some day.

[Episiarch]

I need to be inside you. Now.

[Passive Aggressive Stalker]

Wow, I didn't know you were gay...

Guess there's no point in me stalking you anymore, planning to kidnap you. Wanna go out sometime?

[Episiarch]

Wait, you're not a female chimp? Then I'm not interested.

[Passive Aggressive Stalker]

No, I'm a male sasquatch.

[Episiarch]

STEVE SMITH RESENT HELLER BIGOTRY! HELLER IMPLY MALE SASQUATCH NOT SEXY LIKE FEMALE CHIMP! ALL FEMALE CHIMPS STEVE HAVE RAPED WERE SEXY! TASTED GOOD TOO!

[Passive Aggressive Stalker]

STEVE SMITH JUST WANT EPISIARCH RESPECT STEVE SMITH FOR STEVE SMITH! STEVE SMITH WANT TENDER RAPE WITH EPISIARCH!

[El Duderino]

I feel dirty.

[Spiny Norman]

Get a room.

[Tman]

This should be a fun Friday thread.

I do wonder what is a bigger sausage fest than a meeting of libertarians. Without a doubt there are some incredibly cool libertarian women out there, but I'll be damned if they don't seem to hide very well, aside from the writers here at Reason of course.

[Sean]

Metal music scenes tend to be a strong competitor for biggest sausage festivals.

[leviramsey]

Combine libertarianism and something close to metal and you get Rush... and I defy you to find a bigger sausage fest than a Rush concert.

[Tman]

I just found out they are playing in Nashville in April, and I'm totally there because they are playing the Moving Pictures album in its entirety, which is my personal favorite.

Sadly you are right about the inevitable ratio, but I won't be going to this show to meet chicks. I'm going to watch Neal Alex and Geddy rock out on YYZ.

Some people may not get Rush, but watch a crowd full of Brazilians rock out to a prog rock instrumental and tell me you aren't missing something.

[El Duderino]

Rush has competition...

http://www.google.com/hostedne.....h5v4gqxEeA

[Drax the Destroyer]

Engineering Schools...nuff said.

[Jen]

Well, I'm a libertarian, and I'm going back to school for engineering. Why do I get the feeling I'm going to be like the chick in Eurotrip when she started taking her top off at the nude beach?

[Valawe]

One of my CS classes is the only bigger sausage fest than a libertarian meetup

[Ecolibertarian]

Philosophy department meetings.

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

I did 6 years in the Navy. Even the 'integrated' commands are 20:1.

I then went and worked in the motorcycle industry. Pretty much the only women working in that industry are the ones hired to stand in front of the booths.

[joshua corning]

Dungeons and Dragons conventions.

the odd thing is that World of Warcraft conventions are not.

You would think combining fantasy role playing with computers would repel women even more. Instead it makes women abandon their own children.

[Yonemoto]

I'd say about half of the libertarians I know are women. But then again, I tend to primarily meet people, including libertarians through social dance, so there's definitely a pretty significant sample bias there, as I'm not talking to the guys as much.

[XR4l]

yes WOW seems to find more mates. Yes it is strange.

[ntnu]

MMOs appeals to those with obsessive-compulsive tendencies and not those with tendencies towards gaming.

[Cyan Banister]

Any tech event. I go and there's never a line for our women's bathroom. Usually have it to myself.

[Cyan Banister]

Any tech event. I go and there's never a line for our women's bathroom. Usually have it to myself.

[Spiny Norman]

Scuba diving. What few women there are seem to be there at the insistence of their husbands or boyfriends.

Although it might be different in tropical climates. Or so I fantasize.

[sailshonan]

I live in Florida and there are plenty of women who Scuba. I'm a cave diver too, or "cavette."

[John C. Randolph]

Without a doubt there are some incredibly cool libertarian women out there,

I've met them. Nearly all of them are married.

-jcr

[Sean]

Youtube's squirrels picked a very unfortunate frame for the preview still.

[sage]

I know. She looks like she got hit in the face with her ass.

[JT]

As where you look just like your mom.

[ola]

she could eat corn on the cob through a picket fence.

[.]

That is very unkind, don't you think? Or do you simply not think?

[Almanian]

Emmersome buck-ass incisors right there. The troof hurts...but itsa troof...

[AlmightyJB]

I'd hit it.

[shrike]

Turned off by the offensive conservatives masquerading as "libertarians"?

Watch Gillespie sidle up with Fox News or the Teabagger Medicare Preservation Movement and its pretty obvious why few chicks latch on to the LP wave.

[Episiarch]

Hyperactive virgins who lie about market gains shouldn't throw stones, shriek. Do you even know what a woman looks like? Before you bother bragging about your conquests, remember that real dolls and fleshlights don't count, so that pretty much counts you out.

[Passive Aggressive Stalker]

Episiarch is an expert on virginity, sex dolls, and fleshlights.

Ummmmmmmm.

[Episiarch]

I'm a product tester. Really.

[Rather]

Product tester? Doesn't that hurt your ass Epi?

[Dude!]

Yikes. Looks like Episiarch's lap dogs have abandoned him.

[Mr. FIFY]

Epi doesn't have "lap dogs". That sort of shit, you'll find over at MSNBC.

[Fuck You]

Epi can hold his own agaist this weak shit.

[Fuck You]

"against" or something

[shrike]

I'll add you to the "thinks Jim DeMint is a sexy bastard" list Wonkette is compiling.

There aren't any chicks on that list, btw.

[Episiarch]

Put me on whatever lists you like, moron. It doesn't change the fact that you wear out a fleshlight every two weeks.

[sage]

Thanks for the visual.

[fish]

A little lubricant could help here......and would certainly cut down on the stench of burning rubber.

I know that this is generally a hostile environment Shrike but I really only want the best for you.

[zoltan]

Speaking of Fleshlight, I know someone who works for them and someone who works for the firm representing them in copyright issues...

[Mr. FIFY]

shrike, you're a worthless piece of shit.

Not even a *complete* shit... just part of one.

Go back to DU where you belong.

[shrike]

Look Dickhead. Lets get rid of the anti-science redneck trash (SoCons) first.

Then we can have people vote for purely financial interests.

How is that for "Reason"?

Pretty fucking good - I know.

[Mr. FIFY]

shrike, like you, I have no use for social conservatives.

FISCAL conservatives, hells yeah. I'm one of those. They're fine as long as they stay out of the social-engineering bullshit.

However, unlike you, I do not view everyone with even a tiny bit of religious/spiritual belief as "the enemy".

Your turn, pigfucker.

[shrike]

Fine. The best fiscal tightwad in my lifetime was Bill Clinton. The 1993 Budget Reconciliation Act set us on a course of uninterrupted prosperity until the Bushpigs went all "deficits don't matter" in 2001.

And Clinton passed that act with ZERO Republican votes.

GOP = Spending Pigs.

[Mr. FIFY]

Are you seriously saying Dems don't misspend?

If so, you're as disingenuous as I thought you were.

[Tony]

I think he's saying Dems misspend a shit ton less badly than Repubs. And before you say the obvious thing, spending more isn't the same thing as misspending.

[Mr. FIFY]

"spending more isn't the same thing as misspending"

Strange world you live in, Tony.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

Yikes! I'm an atheist, and you offend ME.

[shrike]

only cool people post on Wonkette

[shrike]

and everyone who isn't a progressive, is a Christ-fag right-winger capitalist pig

[Max]

ARFARFARFARFARFARFARF!!!!!!!!!!

[shrike]

Keep on imitating me!

The more you lowlife conservatives hate me the stronger I feel.

(Again - I only hate SoCons)

[from here]

It looks like you hate everyone - yourself most of all.

[shrike imitators]

Make us stop! Call a lawyer or something! Write your congressman! We triple-dog dare you!

[El Duderino]

Just so you understand. A person can be socially conservative and a libertarian. Ones personal beliefs need not translate into government action. If some douche bag tries to force their beliefs on the rest of society through government force, they are not "conservative" they are fascist because they believe in such authoritarian measures undertaken through a top down government. People like to call actual fascists "conservatives" or "neocons" to deride actual CONSTITUTIONAL CONSERVATIVES. Also, and unfortunately, some fascists call themselves "conservatives" to gain support from real conservative voters.

When you deride conservatives, you are perpetuating the perception that conservatism = fascism. If you think this is a healthy and useful perception, then you are just doing more to help the actual fascists by giving red meat to the leftist fascists while feeding right wing fascists persecution complex, which enables them to garner sympathy from some of the less thoughtful Americans out there who only pay attention to politics every 4 years.

[Mr. FIFY]

True, but in shrikeWorld, even SoCons who *don't* seek to turn their views into laws, fall in the "evil" category.

[Slap the Enlightened!]

So, what do you call social liberals who try to force their beliefs on society through government action? Because you can't read Hit & Run for a single day without seeing at least one article advocating exactly that.

[Mr. FIFY]

"So, what do you call social liberals who try to force their beliefs on society through government action?"

"Fools" would be a good start, but it's such a long list...

[EMp]

I've noticed that on H & R as well, Slap. Reason, I think, tries to navigate above the divide between liberals and conservatives unconsciously, but the Cosmo-tarian crowd is rife with progressivist idealism that is championed under the banner of 'freedom'.

[Passive Aggressive Stalker]

When Episiarch asks you if you know what a woman looks like, he isn't being facetious.

[Tim]

If a woman can't name the best Star Trek Episodes...

[Tim]

If a woman can't name the best Star Trek Episodes...

[Tim]

If a woman can't name the best Star Trek Episodes... how

[Tim]

If a woman can't name the best Star Trek Episodes... how can we respect

[Steff]

City on the Edge of Forever, Trouble With Tribbles, Balance of Terror...

[Meh]

In the Pale Moon Light, Statistical Probabilities, What You Leave Behind

[Yonemoto]

You can't be a libertarian and not like Statistical Probabilities.

[Spiny Norman]

The Way to Eden...

[Mr. FIFY]

"Spock's Brain" should have been a Mystery Science Theater 3000 episode.

[Tim]

If a woman can't name the best Star Trek Episodes... how can we

[Tim]

If a woman can't name the best Star Trek Episodes... how can

[The Other Episiarch]

You are either a mendacious fuck or you can't fucking read.

[Sean]

Come now. There are well known defects with the squirrel administered comment posting system.

[Episiarch]

My stalker! How's that passive aggressiveness working out for you, pussy?

[Dude!]

Are you purposely obtuse, or just unbelievably stupid?

[Mr. FIFY]

Dude! Get some new material.

[Lefty4Life]

That's actually one of my favorite Episiarch quotes. I've been calling people mendacious fucks all week. Well, except for the ones that can't fucking read.

[Colin]

At least he didn't hit on this one.

[College Advisor]

Where are the female libertarians?

Who knows, but don't bother looking at the orthodontist office.

[.]

Gee, I'd bet the women are just beating a path to your door, aren't they? So suave you are.

[Spiny Norman]

Why aren't there more women hanging around with us? It is a puzzle.

[Tony]

Maybe they're turned off by the mass simultaneous ejaculation every time one of them shows up to these threads.

[fish]

Yeah kinda like when you go to scatlover.com.

[joshua corning]

Maybe they're turned off by the mass simultaneous ejaculation every time one of them shows up to these threads.

Hey Tony you can't complain. You come here for all the hot libertarian man meat yourself.

[Tony]

I doubt that's what the rare female comes here for... and in my mind's eye few of you are my type.

[zoltan]

I'll have to agree with Tony here; as one of the few females here, I imagine most of the posters to be ugly, middle-aged chubbies with decent personalities.

[AA]

I'm really not liking these stereotypes of Libertarians. I guess I only fit in ideologically.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

Hey!! I'm moderately easy on the eyes, and have an outstanding personality...

[Hooha]

And I'm young, passable, and have a craplousy personality!

[Come on ToneTone]

Max must be your type.

[Brandybuck]

You don't want to immediately sell off all government roads to the highest bidder within the next week? You fucking statist socialist scum!

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure asking the question "Where are the female libertarians?" gives the right impression of libertarians. It's like asking "Where are the female Star Trek fans?".

Although, on second thought...

[Steff]

Hey, hey. It's possible to be both. XD

[zoltan]

It is; I'm currently geeking out over the Tricorder app I downloaded on my G2.

[T]

Does "slash fanfiction" mean anything to you?

[El Duderino]

I think its hard to find both because its not like you can go up to a woman in a bar and ask her about her favorite Star Trek episode or thoughts on gun rights without fearing some kind of backlash.

But if they are out there I fear that they view the libertarian community much like that nude beach scene in Euro Trip so they avoid advertising their libertarianism.

[Jen]

Wow, I referenced that scene above before I saw your post. Creepy...

[El Duderino]

Great minds. . .

[ChrisO]

Heck, where are the male libertarians, for that matter?

Add too many more women to the movement, and it's going to take two phone booths to house us all.

[Dagny T.]

My gender has nothing to do with my politics or philosophy. Whether or not other women agree with me has nothing to do with my politics or philosophy. And I kinda enjoy the pretentious and argumentative stuff. If I am in the minority, it's because the majority of people of all genders are fucking morons.

[Sean]

the majority of people of all genders are fucking morons

Thread won guys, we can all go home.

[Tim]

"the majority of people of all genders are fucking morons."

Areyou saying that they are fucking morons or fucking morons?

[BakedPenguin]

One implies the other, doesn't it? I mean, unless they're not getting any...

[R C Dean]

We are discussing libertarians, right?

[El Duderino]

Not necessarily. The act of fucking a moron is just a matter of sexual drive. A very intelligent person could fuck a moron and it would probably be enjoyable. I should know, I have bedded a couple of morons in my time.

Being a fucking moron could also mean that you are a moron and one that is breeding. To any morons out there, I am not saying that morons should be prevented from breeding. I am just saying that this is something that is happening.

[LeSigh]

You know, my wife thinks she's a liberal and she always votes for Democrats, but when we actually discuss things, she mostly thinks like a libertarian. I think she won't claim to be libertarian because:

1. She doesn't think of herself as particularly 'political'.
2. The ersatz liberal philosophy appeals directly to her feelings and desire to help others.

[Yonemoto]

Just tell her that government has no place in her feelings, and if she desires to help others she should volunteer her time or money. And, do it by example. Take the lead, spend some time with meals on wheels eg.

[Hooha]

This is common. I wonder if she even knows what libertarianism IS. The left does a pretty solid job of keeping their flock so afraid of us that they refuse to even learn. The indoctrinated response is to idly dismiss us as fringe lunitics, and they do this without even knowing thing one about our core values.

[Sy]

Most democratic and republican voters will claim the 'live and let live' tagline in libertarianism. When they find out it actually means not passing laws to force others to do as they want or not do as they dislike, then they backtread immediately.

[heller]

Reason TV: Where Are the Female Libertarians?

In the kitchen.

HURR DURR.

[Montani Semper Liberi]

Hey, I'm happily married, and in the process of trying to convert my wife to libertarianism. She's from a solidly liberal family, the kind you find in wealthy suburbs of major East Coast cities, but I think I'm having some success.

[sage]

In this administration how could you not?

/rimshot

[ClubMedSux]

My wife actually converted me to libertarianism when we were dating in college. Well, I suppose I had already started developing libertarian ideas but was still seeing things through the Democratic/Republican worldview. She's the one who kind of put it all in context for me.

[R C Dean]

I find few things focus the mind of people who are earning a good living more than pointing out the actual taxes paid by the household.

Add up the property taxes, the state and local income taxes, the federal income tax, SocSec and MA, and you'll probably find that your household is paying enough to support a family.

[Pro Libertate]

I'm not sure my wife is a libertarian--she's not overtly political enough for that--but she's definitely anti-government. And anti-social welfare.

[Pro Libertate]

Government-run social welfare, that is. We donate money to various causes that might qualify, I suppose.

[sage]

What does she think of privatized spaceflight?

[Pro Libertate]

She's not aware of such things, as she gets all of her news from Hit & Run posts. Sad, really.

[R C Dean]

Well-played, sir. Well-played indeed.

[Pro Libertate]

Is there even such a thing as a private sector manned space industry? Maybe that was just some science fiction thingee I read.

[Vermont Gun Owner]

You must be thinking of Hienlien, where the first man to land on the moon was part of a private expedition.

[JEP]

SpaceX, bitches

[Pro Libertate]

And to think, her father-in-law worked on the Apollo program.

[fish]

This isn't an Alice and Ralph Kramden reference is it?

(to the moon Alice.....)

[Pro Libertate]

No. It's a reference to my inability to accept Hit & Run UTTERLY IGNORING the successful Falcon 9/Dragon launch yesterday. You might have heard about it from almost any other news/commentary source. I think it was on the front page of Cosmopolitan's web site.

Ted Koppel is going to start each episode of Nightline with a graphic saying "Day __ of the Hit & Run Private Space Snub."

[Tim]

I'm with you on this one. (shakes fist in impotent rage)

[Oh Grow Up]

We get it. You feel jilted, scorned. Reason.com has let you down. Life has no meaning, food has lost its taste. You can't go on living. This is the end.

[zoltan]

Maybe because they took money from NASA and aren't all that private as they like to make themselves out to be.

[Nor West]

Yeah, this ^

[Pro Libertate]

I don't have a problem with SpaceX having government customers. Just so long as they continue down the path of also having private customers for manned spaceflight. And that's sure the hell what they're trying to do.

Incidentally, they also appear to be willing to have other governments as customers.

[Pro Libertate]

They also have launched satellites from their own sea-based platform, so they do have options that don't involve NASA. But NASA is a definite customer to take notice of, with a space station in orbit and no entirely reliable (and certainly not domestic) option for transporting astronauts to and fro.

[joshua corning]

Hit & Run UTTERLY IGNORING the successful Falcon 9/Dragon launch yesterday.

I am over it.

I think we hit all the important issues about it anyway in the comments:

made fun of weird left wing analysis: Check

realized this was libertopia in the sky: Check

vilified and excommunicated any credit Obama might get for it: Check

Dreamed of hot green alien women: Check

What else needs to be discussed?

[Pro Libertate]

Oh, not you, too. What's more libertarian than ranting forever about something and being utterly ignored?

[Yonemoto]

Come on ProL, everyone knows that the Falcon 9, while privately funded now, is basically just a platform so that SpaceX can rent-seek on the government's need to launch spy satellites, manipulate the weather, and what not.

[El Duderino]

I wouldn't say it was all over the news. The first time I heard anything about this launch was through an aside mention on Fox's Red Eye.

[Nipplemancer]

My wife is probably not a libertarian, but she humors me, which is what it's all about. She watches shitty TV shows like Glee and I subject her to Firefly marathons.

[El Duderino]

Great, now I'm going to end up doing another Netflix Firefly marathon this weekend...

Yes Yes I am that kind of geek.

[Sy]

absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[Raven Nation]

Don't (doesn't?)the number of Glee episodes already out number the total of Firefly episodes?

[Nipplemancer]

My wife is probably not a libertarian, but she humors me, which is what it's all about. She watches shitty TV shows like Glee and I subject her to Firefly marathons.

[Nipplemancer]

I swear I only hit the button once. At least I didn't tagfail.

[Paul]

I made my wife a meat-eating libertarian and then she left.

Mission accomplished.

[Mzilikazi]

A libertarian takes a schoolteacher out on the date, spends dinner telling her how her job is an assault on freedom and that she's a leech on society, how the founders never intended for women to vote, and then tries to pay the bill in liberty dollars. His conclusion when there's no second date: women are agents of statism!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: for people that praise free markets, libertarians have some of the worst marketing out there. When it's all anger and doom, the group ends up looking like a wacky religious cult.

Take something simple like marijuana legalization: if you're saying, "Get the federal government out of it, but allow states and cities to still ban it and put you in jail for it", it justifiably confuses people. Replace that with abortion/gay marriage/contraceptives/etc. When gun rights are threatened, libertarians get pissed. If an individual state were to ban birth control pills, libertarians would shrug and say, "If you don't like it, move!"

[Warty]

If an individual state were to ban birth control pills, libertarians would shrug and say, "If you don't like it, move!"

You don't have any idea what a libertarian is, do you?

[Tman]

That's a wonderful straw man you've built there. You should bring it to Burning Man or something.

[sage]

Drink! in there somewhere.

[heller]

Huh? What libertarian thinks states should be allowed to ban any of those things?

[Sean]

There are a number of anti-abortion posters on here. I disagree vehemently, but I don't think there is a libertarian canon on the right to terminate pregnancy/murder babies.

[Audrey the Liberal*]

Yes,and can enforce this anti-abortion law by having uterus inspectors like they do in China. Admittedly it's to make them have abortions rather then not have them, but it's the same end result.
*Note: I use the word liberal in the Classical/Libertarian sense rather then the Leftist/Progressive sense.

[anarch, in radical mode]

What libertarian thinks states should be allowed?

[BakedPenguin]

Wow. Are you confused, or just trolling?

[BakedPenguin]

You know, "preview" used to show you whether there had been any comments added since you last refreshed.

Just sayin'

[Spur]

You are at least right that libertarian marketing is horrible to men and women alike and tends to lack the emotional intelligence perhaps more likely to attract females.

[Mzilikazi]

There's two distinct strands of libertarianism: individual liberty, and liberty from the federal government. The two strands can have distinctly opposite drives. Abortion is probably the easiest; many attack Roe v. Wade as an attack on states' rights even though reversing the opinion would lead to an overall decrease in individual liberty, borne solely by women.

Ron Paul, probably the most prominent libertarian-leaning politician alive, disagrees with anti-sodomy laws but feels that it's more important for states like Texas to have the freedom to criminalize it, which is how he explains his opposition to Lawrence v. Texas.

The repeal of Prohibition was in many senses a very Libertarian amendment, as it pushed the matter back to the states and local ordinances, which is why Mississippi was dry until 1966 and many cities/counties continue to be dry today. It's a win for states' rights, but not for individual liberty.

Try dating a black woman and telling her, "Look, I'm not a racist, I just support the freedom of individual businesses to ban black people from their property. That's all I'm saying." It's a popular meme since the Goldwater era but holy hell, it makes libertarians look bad.

By the way, all the examples that I listed earlier, while humorous, are taken directly from real-life experiences with friends trying to convert women to the libertarian cause. I even fell victim to the tendency myself, trying to argue with a beautiful Swedish woman about the wrongness of her country's tax policy. In hindsight I was being rude, and a jackass to a woman that was being very nice to me. Obviously this doesn't describe every big L or little l libertarian. But isn't this whole topic about why women aren't attracted to the movement?

[Jordan]

Don't blame us because you're the type of douchebag who brings up politics on a date.

[Brian E]

People bring up politics all the time. It's easier to notice when you disagree with the prevailing politics. The question is whether to silently ignore it or not.

[robc]

Libertarianism and Federalism are too different things. Some libertarians are also federalists, but that is because we support the constitution. So, to use the sodomy example, I could argue that under an originalist interpretation of the constitution (which is NOT a wholly libertarian document by any means) that the federal government can not ban sodomy and that it isnt a fundamental right (I personally think its clearly listed in the 9th amendment, but this is a hypothetical), so therefore they cant prevent Texas from banning it. At the same time, I would oppose Texas banning sodomy. No conflict or confusion here at all to anyone with the logic gene.

As to your final example, I dont know why supporting property rights makes libertarians look bad. Fuck racist fucks. But if a racist fuck owns a lunch counter, he can have his own fucking rules. If blacks cant eat there, I wont either.

[Sam Grove]

Try dating a black woman and telling her, "Look, I'm not a racist, I just support the freedom of individual businesses to ban black people from their property. That's all I'm saying."

All wrong. In that context, the way to get the point across is:

"Look, I'm not a racist, I just support the freedom of individual businesses to ban honkies from their property. That's all I'm saying."

[Opie]

Excuse me. We prefer the term Cracker-American.

[sr7]

Libertarian philosophy excludes as principle the misuse of public monies through bribery that allows the two parties to maintain their prominent positions even though they are both greatly hated. There is no greater reason for its unpopularity. That's the biggie. Everything else, including this discussion of the unpopularity with women, is a distant second to the point of being obfuscatory and barely worth mentioning in the scheme of things.

[Mzilikazi]

There's two distinct strands of libertarianism: individual liberty, and liberty from the federal government. The two strands can have distinctly opposite drives. Abortion is probably the easiest; many attack Roe v. Wade as an attack on states' rights even though reversing the opinion would lead to an overall decrease in individual liberty, borne solely by women.

Ron Paul, probably the most prominent libertarian-leaning politician alive, disagrees with anti-sodomy laws but feels that it's more important for states like Texas to have the freedom to criminalize it, which is how he explains his opposition to Lawrence v. Texas.

The repeal of Prohibition was in many senses a very Libertarian amendment, as it pushed the matter back to the states and local ordinances, which is why Mississippi was dry until 1966 and many cities/counties continue to be dry today. It's a win for states' rights, but not for individual liberty.

Try dating a black woman and telling her, "Look, I'm not a racist, I just support the freedom of individual businesses to ban black people from their property. That's all I'm saying." It's a popular meme since the Goldwater era but holy hell, it makes libertarians look bad.

By the way, all the examples that I listed earlier, while humorous, are taken directly from real-life experiences with friends trying to convert women to the libertarian cause. I even fell victim to the tendency myself, trying to argue with a beautiful Swedish woman about the wrongness of her country's tax policy. In hindsight I was being rude, and a jackass to a woman that was being very nice to me. Obviously this doesn't describe every big L or little l libertarian. But isn't this whole topic about why women aren't attracted to the movement?

[Warty]

So you're a dick to women you're trying to bang. Got it.

[Tman]

By the way, all the examples that I listed earlier, while humorous, are taken directly from real-life experiences with friends trying to convert women to the libertarian cause.

You use a couple anecdotal examples to describe libertarians, none of which are anything more than a caricature of libertarian views. I see what you're trying to say but there are plenty of libertarians (of the small "l" variety) who are much more interested in the main theme of libertarianism, which is to limit the power of the federal government at every opportunity.

For instance, whilst I agree that Roe V Wade was a horrible decision from a states rights perspective, I have no tolerance for a government body -either local state or federal- that believes that they have a right to dictate what a woman can and cannot do to her own body.

And as Bill Hicks used to say, you aren't a real human being until you're in my phone book.

[Ray Pew]

By the way, all the examples that I listed earlier, while humorous, are taken directly from real-life experiences with friends trying to convert women to the libertarian cause.

What you describe is prominent in ALL variants of political philosophy. The vast majority of people, IME, have a very poor capacity for conveying their political ideas, or simply have a very superficial understanding of it.

Libertarianism has the disadvantage of arguing against many long established systems, which people have a propensity to consider "necessary".

[Cute 6-year Old]

...you aren't a real human being until you're in my phone book.

Screw you too!

[Colonel_Angus]

"Get the federal government out of it, but allow states and cities to still ban it and put you in jail for it"

"If an individual state were to ban birth control pills, libertarians would shrug and say, "If you don't like it, move!""

That's confederalism, not libertarianism. I frankly don't give a shit about state's rights, as I favor individual freedom and not statism.

[10th Amendment]

Why do you hate me?

[Thomas O.]

Yeah, if you don't like it, move. Search for a new job that'll require you to reset your job security meter to zero, look for a new house, try to sell your existing house, make your wife and kids have to break away from their friends, family and other connections to their community and settle in a faraway land where you know absolutely nobody... but hey, that stuff you crave is legal there!

As much as I would probably be better off in another state, I would rather stay and fight for my rights, even if it's tantamount to firing a squirt gun at a brick wall. If some communities just won't be able to sleep at night until the stuff they hate is out of sight and out of mind, then keep the banning stuff at city level, like we in Texas have done with alcohol. Driving a few dozen miles to get beer, pot or slot machines doesn't bother me, but having to fly a few states over does.

[El Duderino]

Dear Retarded Troll:

First of all, you totally misunderstand the concept of states rights, second, you lack any kind of understanding of the constitution. If a state wants to ban something, they can do so so long as it is constitutional to do so. The federal government has no constitutional authority to ban any substance, including marijuana. States banning marijuana is constitutional even though it is an affront to natural liberty. States rights are a constitutional issue libertarians take up in the United States, because by and large the US constitution is a highly libertarian document and states rights are important because local governance is more effective and efficient than one size fits all federal governance. That said, you are basically saying that because libertarians support states rights, that they also support states banning marijuana. If you followed the CA marijuana legalization movement AT ALL, you would know that this is a completely false assertion.

Regarding abortion: IMO, there are certain ethical limits to abortion of any kind. I am not saying it should be totally illegal, but at a certain point, a fetus should have legal rights to life because it has consciousness. If you want to argue this point with me I will, otherwise, I will move on.

At what point have you determined that libertarians want to allow states to ban gay marriage and contraceptives? Again, being pro-states rights, does not also mean that one is for allowing states to violate the constitution. If a state makes a law that is in agreement with the spirit and purpose of the constitution, then they have a right to do it and if you dont like that law, you can vote the bums out or yes, move.

Freedom is not bad marketing, it is perfect marketing. Unfortunately, more freedom, means less POWER for almost all government officials and workers and it is far too easy to use propaganda to get people to give up their freedom.

[El Duderino]

Oh and I would also like to add that libertarians seek to maximize natural liberty. The US Constitution is the closest framework of law we have to maximize natural liberty. If the US government and the states followed to the letter the constitution, it would still be possible to shrink government from that already very small size. While there is plenty of debate about if or how much government is appropriate, there is almost no debate that at this point in time government should be reduced considerably. IMO having a small constitutional government is an acceptable trade of certain liberties for a certain amount of stability and state and national sovereignty. Just because I believe that states have certain rights, doesn't mean that I think they should abuse those rights with all sorts of bans and intrusive laws.

[Liberal Douchebag]

Small government = Somalia-loving wistful Confederates.

Oh, and racist.

[SoCon Douchebag]

Without big government, we can't arrest tens of thousands of people for smoking pot. Plus, we MUST have laws banning gays.

[El Duderino]

Small government does not equal post civil war chaos.

[?]

I don't know where they are, but I know why there aren't any.

1) NERDS

B) Libertarianism is a theory of government, not a navigational guide to (and/or rationalization of) extant social hierarchies. It's loser talk.

[heller]

1... B?

[Anonymous]

I picked 1.

[robc]

Seinfeld fan, Im guessing. Although I think that was A...2.

[El Duderino]

So you think that natural liberty is a theory rather than a basic principal to navigate social hierarchy? You probably wouldn't maintain this POV if I put a gun to your head and demanded your money.

Also, as a nerd, I am offended by your first point. Obviously you have never seen Revenge of the Nerds.

[Kristen]

All my chick friends, even the ones that purport to be libertarians, are in favor of fairly rigid gun control and legalization of only cannabis, at most. Those are probably the two main sticking points with my sistren.

[Kristen]

Also, as a chick myself, I like the male-female ratio. It's a target rich environment out there.

[shrike]

They are not also pro-contraception choice?

Scalito and Thomas want to own your wombs.

[Episiarch]

Unlike shriek, who just wants to know what a real womb entrance feels like. His fleshlight has been very distant and preoccupied lately.

[shrike]

You are stalking me now, you creep.

Do your nipples extrude when Huckabee or the Pat Robertson speak on the 700 Club?

You know I hate SoCons - yet you lick their slimy trails up.

[Jordan]

Please provide just one instance of Episiarch praising SoCons. Just one, dipshit.

[.]

Are you his mommy?

[Episiarch]

Are you purposely obtuse, shriek, or just unbelievably stupid? I have to go with stupid, because no one can be as fucking dumb as you on purpose.

Make sure you say "christfag" next time. I don't think your Tourette's is kicking in properly.

[Dude!]

Are you purposely obtuse, or just unbelievably stupid?

Dude, get some new material already!

[joshua corning]

You are stalking me now, you creep.

Someone who comes up to you while you are waving a sign in the lobby of libertarian headquarters that says "Libertarians are Nazi Christfags!!!" and calls you an idiot is not stalking you.....even if they do it every time they see you there.

[shrike]

Fuck off.

I never disparage libertarians.

Just those asshole conservatives who claim they "love liberty" while hating on the ACLU and secularism - the building blocks of liberty.

[Episiarch]

You just can't stop being a fucking idiot, can you? I guess it's just another one of your numerous tics.

[Tim]

Ass. The building blocks of liberty sre deadly violence and sexual dysfunction. If the founders had women on tap like say Bill Clinton, they'd have been to relaxed to care about shooting tories and throwing tea parties.

[shrike]

found another conservative masquerading as something he is not....

The building blocks of liberty sre deadly violence and sexual dysfunction.

And this sentence is shameful nonsense.

[Tim]

Are you acquainted with the concept of sarcasm?

[joshua corning]

And this sentence is shameful nonsense.

It was a joke Shrike....you post here enough why don't you read more and perhaps you will start to realize 90% of the stuff poeple post here that offends you is snark or just screwing around.

[Jen]

I take it you haven't noticed that liberals have no sense of humor.

[Mr. FIFY]

shrike, you damned near creamed yourself on these forums when the forced-to-buy-health-insurance-is-OK decision came down... and more recently - as in, earlier today - you bitched about the 35% tax rate.

You've got Team Blue's face tattooed on your ass.

[Poppin' Caps lock]

More like Team Blue's ass tattooed on his face.

[Sy]

"You've got Team Blue's face ass tattooed on your ass face ."

FIFY, Mr. FIFY

[Mr. FIFY]

Why should the top tax rate be any higher than 35%, shrike? Jealousy is not a prudent factor in tax policy, so keep that in mind.

As for this:

"I never disparage libertarians"

The fuck you don't.

[Mr. FIFY]

+1, joshua.

[Mr. FIFY]

shrike, do you spoo when you read Paul Krugman columns?

[Jordan]

shriek strikes me as more of a shakeweight kind of guy, NTTAWWT.

[Episiarch]

"Your workout is finished. Here is some cab fare. Now going into sleep mode."

[Captain Oveur]

shrike, do you like movies about gladiators?

[Mr. FIFY]

What if one does not "own a womb", shrike? Shouldn't men get some special bonus right, if women have one specific to their gender?

[Tim]

What are your favorite Star Trek episodes?

[robc]

The odds are good, but the goods are odd.

^^Common phrase amongst the women (all 2 of them) at my alma mater. Previous link starts slow and runs too long, but is far too accurate.

[El Duderino]

What what! A libertarian chick!!!

Kristen, will you marry me???

[Spur]

Based on their website the Ladies of Liberty are going nowhere fast - get control of your blog posts at least.

[joshua corning]

Hit & Run Commentors should make a nude calendar to attract the ladies.

[Warty]

Can we do themed photoshoots? If so, I'm in.

[Episiarch]

"Rape" is not a theme.

[Warty]

YES IT IS I'LL KILL YOU I'LL KILL YOU I'LL KILL YOU

[Sean]

How many of us can match Jeff Flake? It can't be more than a handful.

[.]

Bernie Sanders, perhaps...

[Mr. FIFY]

Fuck Bernie Sanders. Fucker doesn't even deserve a bullet in the brain.

Now, a claw hammer... that, he's worth.

[El Duderino]

If you use a bullet, you cant get the bullet back. On the other hand, you could probably frame that hammer.

[Mr. FIFY]

Bonus: Once you clean the hammer, its carbon footprint is much smaller than all that nasty gunpowder pollution. Even Chad would approve of that.

[El Duderino]

Thats what I call a green revolution.

[joshua corning]

libertarianism is especially popular among young women.

As a libertarian I for one welcome our new!!!!YOUNG!!!! !!!!WOMEN!!!! overlords.

[Cathy Reisenwitz]

Cool topic. I just joined LOLA.

[Tim]

Star Trek Episodes! Don't wait for the translation, answer the question!

[Lurker Kurt]

+1

[Tony]

That's "Don't wait for the translation, answer me now!"

Amateur.

[Max]

Where are the black libertarians? Hispanic? Liberarianism is as lily-white as neo-Nazism, but not as interesting.

[Warty]

Speaking of not interesting, it's Edward! How you doing, Edward?

[Mr. FIFY]

Gosh, Max, didn't you know? We stand at the doorway and prevent them from joining!

Didn't you get the memo from Ed Schultz about that? You lazy fuckstain.

[Slap the Enlightened!]

True dat. Except the neo-Nazis attract a lot more women.

[Yonemoto]

Lily white, last I checked.

[El Duderino]

I would reply to this, but I have to finish polishing my life size Hitler statue.

[Mr. FIFY]

You know who else had life-size Hitler statues...

[El Duderino]

Maybe its because I am completely high, but I literally LOL'd.

[Sy]

Shriek? No, that's Stalin. My bad.

[El Duderino]

Only meaningful difference between Stalin and Hitler was the mustache.

[Sy]

I'll give Hitler credit for actually being able to produce shit during a time of war. Stalin? Not so much.

[Sy]

I'll give Hitler credit for actually being able to produce shit during a time of war. Stalin? Not so much.

[Sy]

fking server..

[AA]

So Max thinks Nazism is interesting? Good to know.

[El Duderino]

SHHH! they dont call it Nazism, they call it "social justice".

AA. . . Hmmm. . . that sounds like a JEW NAME TO ME!!! Put him up against the wall!

[Tony]

Gaybertarians?

[shrike]

Actually, gays should be overrepresented among those claiming fealty to libertarianism since they have the most to gain.

Of course, listening to the braying of LPers lately the true state of "liberty" is a fucking 35% top marginal income tax rate.

(OK - thats mainly "right-libertarians" I admit)

[ClubMedSux]

I often find myself scratching my head when I talk to my gay friends about politics. I think the problem is that most people--be they gay, straight, or whatever--tend to focus simply on their own rights. Thus it's easier to look at which major political party is currently supporting a gay-rights agenda than it is to look for a political theory that optimizes EVERYBODY's rights.

[Tony]

Well this is directly from my ass, but I'd say that gay people tend to migrate to urban areas, where people in general are more likely to be liberal. Back on the farm, where libertarianism makes the most sense, is not generally an accepting place for gays.

I don't have any reason to think gays are more pragmatic than average, but for those of us who are it's little wonder we don't tend to sympathize with the dominant political party that uses our human rights as bait to attract bigoted cretins to vote for them.

[ClubMedSux]

I completely understand why gays are more likely to be Democratic than Republican, but seeing that your choices there are the party that doesn't give a shit about gays versus the party that's too chicken-shit to do anything about gays, I would think that a political philosophy that would clearly and unabashedly give them more rights than they've ever had in this country would be appealing.

[Tony]

Speaking for myself, I don't see how joining a completely impotent movement is better than being a part of a real political party that actually has some chance at securing equal rights.

[ClubMedSux]

Honestly, I think that's the most logical explanation for sticking with the Democrats. But that still doesn't explain the rejection/mocking of libertarian principles. Not to reopen the whole liberaltarian debate but one could be libertarian and still active in the Democratic party in their advocacy for gay rights.

[Tony]

Really I know some gaybertarians and more than a few gay republicans. I would be among the former if only I agreed with some of the things you believe in.

[joshua corning]

Really I know some gaybertarians and more than a few gay republicans.

Which ones are better in the sack?

[Tony]

Which ones are better in the sack?

I only sleep with people who are too attractive to be interested in politics.

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

And it doesn't bother you that they are equally discriminating?

[Kant feel Pietzsche]

aren't, dammit! AREN'T!!

[JW]

being a part of a real political party that actually has some chance at securing equal rights.

How's that going with the Dems?

Yes, I believe them when they say that they really do love you and don't mean to hurt you like that.

[Tony]

Pretty well. Only 3 votes short in the Senate for starting debate on repealing DADT. Better than nothing, which is what ideologues generally get (because they demand everything).

[ClubMedSux]

Here's the problem, Tony... You can dismiss libertarians as ideologues, but the reality is that politicians are lagging indicators. Regular folks (including soulless libertarians) are the ones who are actually making society more accepting of gays. Once we've made it a politically-viable position, then the Democrats will step up and repeal DADT (soon?) or legalize gay marriage (twenty years from now?). But it's not the politicians that made the change possible; it's society at large.

[Tony]

Here's the problem, Tony... You can dismiss libertarians as ideologues, but the reality is that politicians are lagging indicators. Regular folks (including soulless libertarians) are the ones who are actually making society more accepting of gays. Once we've made it a politically-viable position, then the Democrats will step up and repeal DADT (soon?) or legalize gay marriage (twenty years from now?). But it's not the politicians that made the change possible; it's society at large.

That is probably true. I think it works out well when Congress follows slightly behind the public. That's kind of how it's supposed to work. What's also true is that Republicans will take much longer to repeal it, if repeal is possible. Like a century.

[JW]

You seem to be confused about failure. It *is* nothing, since it didn't pass.

Obama could have ended it any time he wanted to, as CinC, but he chose the exact opposite. I'm sure Clinton meant DADT for the best. How's that vote to repeal DOMA that Obama promised?

Don't worry, I'm sure that black eye will clear up in no time.

[Mr. FIFY]

Well, Tony, you could always join the Green Party... or the CPUSA... I'm sure they're gay-friendly.

[No, the commies execute them]

[Mr. FIFY]

American Communists don't execute gays.

[El Duderino]

Yet.

[CPUSA]

We're working on it, oKAY? Shit, we've got enough to deal with, having that fascist capitalist pig-dog of a president in office...

[El Duderino]

The first thing you need to do is ban having a boner.

[DADT]

will be forced on the homophobic Obama by the Republicans now. He'll be forced to get rid of it, thereby alienating some of his gay-hating-Rev-Wright-worshipping base.

[Jason]

Speaking for myself, I don't see how joining a completely impotent movement is better than being a part of a real political party that actually has some chance at securing equal rights.

Equal rights like DOMA.

[Sy]

Why would you join a political party that has repeatedly used people like you as a poster child and nothing else? What have they achieved in the name of true equality for gays?

[joshua corning]

Actually, gays should be overrepresented among those claiming fealty to libertarianism since they have the most to gain.

The sad thing is I agree with shrike...the same guy who only a few months ago prefaced his posts with the term "Christfag".

[Episiarch]

Considering your homophobia, shriek, this post is hilarious coming from you.

[shrike]

I am not a homophobe. I just like to use forceful terms.

As "Christfag" is one for sure - a shortcut for a jackoff numbnuts who wanders around expressing his love for some mythical Palestinian.

That IS weird. Especially when they bleat like sheep to impress each other in their little mosques.

Rule #1 - denounce all superstition.

Only then will liberty flow like water to its eager survivors.

[shrike]

Truth be told, I'm very comfortable with gays. Hint, hint.

[guy at the truck stop]

It's true. We rimmed each other in the cab of my Freightliner.

[Stray dog at the truck stop]

Ruff ruff me too. Woof...

[Max]

ARFARFARFARFARFARFARF!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sr7]

Why are so many of our trolls gay progressives?

Liberals want to wrap them up in a blanket and give them a big hug (for being so brave!), conservatives want to wrap them up in a body bag. Libertarians are indifferent. Both Libs and Cons talk about them all the time be it passive agressive hate, or out right hate, but the libertarian is truly not interested and has better things to do with his time than to watch Glee, take fashion advice, or go to a Wednesday church social to rail against the homosexual agenda. Indifferent. To be ignored is the worst insult of all.

[joshua corning]

Why are so many of our trolls gay progressives?

As mentioned above:

The hot libertarian man meat.

We are manly, not homophobes, straight, and open to new things....

This is the theme of 99% of all gay porn.

[sr7]

There is that, too. But that is like a given.

[Lurker Kurt]

+1000

[XR4l]

Even a dog would rather be kicked than ignored.

[Audrey the Liberal*]

Why are so many of our trolls gay progressives? Because there are many gay libertarians out there (in fact I believe gay white males are more likely to be libertarian then any other group in America). I imagine many in the gay left consider this difference in opinion a kind of betrayal. Such a "betrayal" might cause some of them to lash out, but I'm just guessing.
*Note: I use the word liberal in the Classical/Libertarian sense, not the Leftist/Progressive sense.

[joshua corning]

Gaybertarians?

You are beaten, do not let yourself be destroyed as Joe did.

There is no escape. Don't make us destroy you.

Tony you do not yet realize your importance.You have only begun to discover your power.

Join us and we will complete your training. With our combined strength we can end this destructive conflict and bring liberty to the galaxy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdc7v4vkbJI

[Tony]

Look I was already a libertarian. I gave it up once I graduated 8th grade. I just don't think gay people are gonna start thinking it's in their best interest to transfer power from the state to rednecks with guns.

[ClubMedSux]

So wait... you just pointed out in your other comment that most gays live in large, urban areas. So in Libertopia the rednecks will all move into the city to shoot gays? Hmm...

[Tony]

Let me put it another way that gets at the heart of the matter. Straight white guys tend to be more libertarian because straight white guys need the least help from government, since they're the dominant demographic and have been forever. More progressive people are those who see value in a more active government. You get that from living around a bunch of other people (necessitating more rules), or being a minority (necessitating more activism on your behalf).

[ClubMedSux]

I guess that goes to the crux of the matter... You're looking at it from the perspective of how the government can help you while I'm looking at it from the perspective of how the government can screw you over. Considering that my gay friends are all doing quite well for themselves, I would think you'd be more concerned with the latter (certainly, every gay hot-button issue I can think of comes from the government denying rights rather than denying services) but your comment seriously helps me to better understand where you're coming from.

[Mr. FIFY]

^^^this^^^

[sr7]

but your comment seriously helps me to better understand where you're coming from.

But where he is coming from is just so much bullshit. When Thomas Sowell was doing serious scholarship (he is well passed the retirement age, now, so not being derogatory), there was one overriding theme he kept finding to be consistent in the many cultures that he examined. Minorities that sought political solutions to their problems fared far less well than those who sought economic solutions. Inequality is caused mostly by cultural imperatives, even when majoritarian oppression is considered. Jews versus Micks, IOWs.

[El Duderino]

So gay black people need help from the government?

[Mr. FIFY]

I'd bet there's a "gay black people subsidy" in that humongous book of gov't programs hyped by that Matthew Lesko guy...

[Lurker Kurt]

Wouldn't you like to be able to defend yourself, Tony, rather than hoping the police arrive in time to save you from a fag-basher?

[Tony]

I'd hope it's not either/or. But guns do a number on the old manicure.

[Tony]

Look I was already a libertarian. I gave it up once I graduated 8th grade. But I'm not an elitist.

[Tony]

Never claimed not to be an elitist, though that wasn't an example of me being one. I was just insulting you.

[Eighth-grade Tony]

You DID insult me, Future Tony! You made me sad.

[BakedPenguin]

There are at least three regular commenters here who are openly (so to speak) gay. (Libertarians, not including you, Tony). Frankly, it surprises me somewhat that there aren't more, given the beaten wife treatment gays get at the hands of the Democrats (the Obama administration going out of it's way to block the end of DADT), or the openly abusive treatment the LCR gets from the Republicans.

[.]

This is like the math issue. Is that settled yet?

[Garfield, Objectivist]

Meow Meow Meow Roar!

[Translate: democratic nations has (lolcats!) the moral imperative to bomb the shit out of the civilians of less democratic nations.]

Meow Meow Meow

[translation: people are puerile, therefore democracy by its nature is dysfunctional.]

Meow Meow Meow

[Everybody else but us are collectivist.]

Meow Meow Meow

[If you act on your own individual initiative against the state, you are an anarchist, nihilist, and a collectivist]

Meow Meow Meow

[We really hate Episiarch, and come to H'n'R every evening to ostracize him. If we can remove him, we'll take over the community!]

[ClubMedSux]

My wife made any interesting point about a group like LOLA... Generally when you have a "women only" group there's some kind of feminist agenda. At the same time, libertarianism and feminism (at least popular feminism) are quite at odds to the extent that libertarianism is anti-collectivist and feminism (again, as popularly represented) is inherently collectivist. So libertarian women such as my wife may approach an organization like LOLA with caution simply because of their experience with other women's groups.

[zoltan]

Good point--I've visited the site for this women's group and don't see the point of it. Why not just make a site for everyone? Marketing, I guess.

[joshua corning]

Why not just make a site for everyone?

One good reason:

Warty

[Leah]

There already are sites for everyone. There aren't a lot of places, though, that women can congregate to discuss libertarianism as it relates to them. ifeminists is the only one I can think of. And yes, it shouldn't be necessary, everyone is equal, etc, but in our society it kind of IS necessary. It's like being like "why make a site for women? They should just come to reason!" Well, possibly they might want to do their discussion in a place with fewer rape jokes, for example...

[zoltan]

Wouldn't want to hurt those delicate feelings of yours. Female libertarians like myself don't need to go somewhere to be coddled and kept from the mean males and their awful humor. Your vagina collective is simpering nonsense and I see a far better analysis of issues that impact females (and a wider spectrum of people) at volokh than your poorly-run site.

[Sy]

"It's like being like "why make a site for women? They should just come to reason!" Well, possibly they might want to do their discussion in a place with fewer rape jokes, for example..."

So, IOW, you want a site that censors for shit you don't like?

[Audrey the Liberal*]

Hey I'm a woman (and a feminist) and I like rape jokes.
*Note: I use liberal in the Classical/Libertarian sense, not the Leftest/Progressive sense.

[BakedPenguin]

Wendy McElroy, just to name one, considers herself a libertarian feminist.

[BakedPenguin]

Wendy's website.

[ClubMedSux]

By the way, was Wendy the chick behind iFeminist? My wife used to read that site a lot and I think that was a great example of how libertarianism and feminism can complement each other.

[ClubMedSux]

Never mind, just saw a link to iFeminists on her page.

[Leah]

I still read it. 😉

[ClubMedSux]

I absolutely think you can be a libertarian feminist to the extent that your goal is equality. I just think that MOST self-identifying feminists seek to achieve equality through means that aren't very libertarian.

[BakedPenguin]

I would agree with that.

[zoltan]

I don't think most feminists seek equality at all.

[Audrey the Liberal*]

Yes, most self-identifying feminists aren't libertarians, but that doesn't mean all self-identifying feminists aren't libertarians. As a liberal*, I believe people should be judged as individuals, rather then a groups.
*Note: I use the word liberal in the Classical/Libertarian sense, rather then the Leftest/Progressive sense.

[Leah]

Yes, it is hard to have something that appeals to women (and people in general, really, but women in this instance) in a "big tent" way like libertarianism and then not have it degenerate into petty infighting about how people who breastfeed are dooming women to be an underclass and people who send their kids to public school are dooming their kids to become cogs in the government's machine and people who don't have children are selfish and people who DO have children are selfish and so on and so forth. Hence, I'm a bit reserved about stuff like this. But it certainly has potential, I think there are a ton of women's issues that are directly related to libertarian issues, from harassment to birth choices to sexual abuse/assault to bodily autonomy issues and so on.

[St. V]

That, and how many women actually claim to enjoy working with other women? Very few, in my experience.

[sr7]

Your wife sounds on the money. They want to build a wall of separation where they do not have to be confronted by those who remind them that their concerns are those of a particular minority of women, affluent women who have been through the brain scrub of the academic program that enhances their sense of privilege, while the concern of other women and those who have left the old fold behind have interest that reflect what is going on in the world around them instead of just the cloister. You can not escape the fact certain aspects of your thought are built upon contradictions that an exclusive site would rarely test when you visit a public forum dedicated to libertarianism in its more universal sense where anyone with a jaundiced view of your beliefs might have some fun poking at them. Hence, the claim to a need for the exclusion, and hence the excuse that sexism and crudeness that repels them when we are no more crude or sexist than what you will find outside the insular cloister.

[Mark Worth]

Great pretentious douchery. Grade A.

[dbcooper]

The scarcity of bitches thread is definitely the best place to post this:

metrosexual

[Matrix]

She has an overbite like Freddy Mercury... not that I'm complaining.

[sr7]

She's cute like a rabbit.
She just needs to be extra careful down there, that's all.

[anona]

Women are socialists by and large. Everyone knows this. Libertarian women are rare and amazing.

[annoonamiss]

Women are socialists, by and large. End of story.

[Anonymous Coward]

Gibbs says that, although the pretentious and argumentative nature of the libertarian movement has been a turn off to women

Because there are absolutely no argumentative women to be found anywhere. Women abhor conflict in all forms and only want understanding and harmony between all people.

And in other news, traffic accidents occurred all over America due to an unexpected downpour of pig feces.

[sr7]

+1

[Dude!]

This one's easy: Grown women don't like obnoxious adolescents.

[ClubMedSux]

Then explain how I'm still married...

[XR4l]

+ still married to

[sr7]

Progressivism is arrested development with a political rationale. Plenty of women are afflicted with that as well. So if you have no problems finding a smelly and hairy hippie chick with bad teeth and a crack problem at your rallies I don't doubt it, but neither do I have any envy. I have a lady in my life, but her political views are much less interesting than her vagina. Not entirely as sexist as it sounds because the political and economic views leftist dudes hold are substantially less interesting than her vagina.

[Leah]

Yes, I can't imagine why some women might want a different place to have discussions about libertarian issues...

[sr7]

Fine with me. I come here for the libertarianism, not for the ass kissing. I've got employees to do that, so I never have to be on the giving end, just the receptor.

[sr7]

'Hey guys! I'm new here. Please hold my hand. Don't test me in any way, nor say anything that might offend me.'

Pffft. And you call yourself a libertarian? I came here, I didn't ask for special treatment, and none was given. I expect some rude back hand to come at me any post now. And you know what? I like it!

[ClubMedSux]

The irony here is that clearly YOU'RE the one who has no interest in seeing things from any perspective other than your own... and yet you accuse OTHERS of wanting to avoid opinions which challenge one's own beliefs.

[sr7]

I completely agree with you which makes you completely wrong. If that makes me wrong too just so I can be in the right, then so be it. At least I win, kind of.

[sr7]

Oh, and see what I mean, Leah? There will always be one 'advanced' male, one knight in shining armor who will come and defend your honor and go after the rogue who dares sully the virtue of a lady.

Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!
Human nature, you gotta love it.

[reason readin female]

There is a certain percentage of dickheads in the general population, so it's not at all unique or surprising that one would claim to be Libertarian.

*yawn*

[sr7]

Now, reason readin female that was not a nice thing to say. Just because ClubMedSux is condescending to your gender, it doesn't mean he isn't a good guy. I'm certain in his capacity he believes himself to be a nuanced, fair minded, even sophisticated individual given his elastic temperament, and you should at least take that in regard, the fact he means well, before you judge him too harshly.

[Mr. FIFY]

To be fair, rrf, go read some Jezebel or Feministing posts. Men don't have a lock on hatin' on the opposite gender.

[Dr. Quack's sex crazed Poodle]

I would only disagree to the extent that a woman's vagina is not all that fascinating in today's day and age where women have them spread out all over the place, accosting the public morality with their manic desperation for sexual equality. It is so easy to call you a so and so for speaking the simple truth. Just think of what they did Socrates for speaking the truth.

[beavis]

If she doesn't like obnoxious adolescents, then why did she say 'women's caucus' huh huh caucus....

[Dan Lavatan]

Maybe it is just me, but when I've attended actual libertarian events the ration of men/women has been fairly balanced. We had a female gubernatorial cantidate etc.

Does anyone have actual data to indicate otherwise?

[Cornholio, Libertarian]

Are you saying that the premise of this post is bogus? Are you threatening me?

[Cruz]

The real question is... Where are all the HOT Females. That's all most of the shut in computer genius Libertarians w/ bad haircuts I know always ask. Followed by why don't you bring hot girls to our den of desperation.

The Answer... Goodluck converting them... Ron Paul will be President before Hot Girls stroll into the Libertarian scene.

[Hooha]

When you look good enough, you don't have to understand how the world works.

[Shoey]

thread winner, give the man a cigar!

[joshua corning]

Does anyone have actual data to indicate otherwise?

Any Hit & Run thread since it started circa 2004.

[AA]

Our Libertarian Party/Group here in the Phoenix/Tempe/Scottsdale area is fairly balanced. They aren't ugly either. In my experience, most of the hott women aren't really all that involved in politics anyway(although I do know a few fine Libertarian women), so I don't think we're missing out on much.

[anarch]

Odd acronym, given the song by that title.

[Spiny Norman]

Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
It's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world
Except for Lola

[QuietDesperation]

Mars Libertaria Needs Women!

[John Lennon's Ghost]

Libertarians are the niggers of the world.

[Charcoal]

It doesn't surprise me there aren't more female libertarians. In my experience, women my age are content with the status quo, mostly because they don't think about it.

I don't think "the pretentious and argumentative nature of the libertarian movement" is driving women away, but it might be what keeps them more hidden. Whenever it's revealed I am a libertarian, I am perceived to be militant. Not by men, but other women.

[anon]

women are socialists, by and large. Thus the rise of socialist since women's suffrage.

[[e-mail]]

women are socialists by and large. Thus not may are libertarians, by and large.

[shrike]

And what is wrong with being a socialist?

[Tony]

Yeah! What gives??

[Tao]

yeah bro, you can be a libertarian AND a socialist.

[Pisiarch]

And an anarchist too!

[Liberal Douchebag]

It's only okay for liberals to be anarchists!

[Tony]

Fuck I've been hanging out with liberal Wikileaks cultists, so this isn't as absurd as it sounds.

[Mr. FIFY]

Had one of many ongoing arguments with a local liberal, and he said this with a straight face:

"I support anarchists like the protesters at the G8 summit, because they're throwing rocks for a good cause. But *your* brand of anarchy is inexcusable." He wouldn't condemn the Earth Liberation Front, either.

He also calls for a 75% tax on ALL income over $100K - not marginal, but on every penny - and that's one of his milder views. The rest of them, frankly, make me ill just thinking about them.

I wonder how many on the left are like this guy.

[Mr. FIFY]

Bonus: He voted for Cynthia McKinney as she, quote, was the least conservative of the 2008 lineup - even though he considered her too far to the right for his tastes.

Yikes.

[shrike]

got contact info? I like the sound of this guy.

[Mr. FIFY]

Bullshit. NEVER trust anyone who calls themselves a libertarian socialist. They're lying because the two cannot coexist.

[Tao]

>implying the first man to ever identify as libertarian wasn't a communist

[Mr. FIFY]

Ooookay.

[Tao]

Most women I've known to fall somewhere outside of the centrist political spectrum seem to align themselves on a more humanitarian level than libertarian (not that many of the goals aren't the same). They'll support policies like drug legalization, individual liberties, and an anti-interventionist foreign policy.

On the other hand, I don't personally know any woman that would vote for a politician whose stated objective is to dismantle welfare programs and privatize education. There's also the issue of the environment, where libertarians usually don't come out looking all that strong.

I really don't think it's right to say women are anti-freedom or even un-libertarian for that matter, it's just a matter of what rights you believe to take precedent over others. Positive and negative freedom and all that jazz.

[sr7]

On the other hand, I don't personally know any woman that would vote for a politician whose stated objective is to dismantle welfare programs and privatize education.

Hardly matters, the internal contradictions will take care of that. Note the London riots. Previous generations of upper class and entitled students lived at the expense of current youth who will have to learn to live with less given to them. Boomers wanted it all, and they got it. GenXers of certain class privileges were fortunate to reap the benefits before that unsustainable system collapsed. Without a single vote necessary, they will dismantle themselves as is apparent when you see how much in terms of resources must be added each year to keep up with the previous year. Why is it so? Because both public education and welfare are systemic failures. If they were not, growth in both would only reflect population and inflation. Unsustainable and recklessly so.

[Tao]

I'm not sure what this has to do with the London riots, but from what I was told by an actual Brit is that tuition hikes would have little to no effect whatsoever on students who come from the lower socio-economic tax brackets. IMO their platform seems to be more along the lines of the Tea Party than it is a true socialist doctrine.

And as far as welfare programs go, a lot of Greens I know support something more along the lines of a McGovern style direct redistribution of wealth than they do keeping the programs already in existence.

[Mr. FIFY]

McGovern style direct redistribution of wealth than they do keeping the programs already in existence

Neither of which actually work, but hey... it's for the children!

Seriously, egalitarianism sounds good on paper, but...

[Audrey the Liberal]

On the other hand, I don't personally know any woman that would vote for a politician whose stated objective is to dismantle welfare programs and privatize education. Now you do.

[Mex]

Women nest.
Politico-economic theory: way too hard.

[sailshonan]

Being a female libertarian, sometimes I allow myself to think that women are all crazy bitches and I am the only sane and rational one...the surest sign of insanity, I am told...
The explanation for the dearth of female libertarians is, like explanations for most everything, long, varied and a combinatation of many reasons. Im a bit socially retarded, probably with a mild touch of Asperger's, and so therefore dont respond to the usual social cues. I mean, it wasn't til high school that I realized that my childhood dream of being James Bond and getting to fuck all kinds of strange male spies (I knew enough to at least switch the genders of my sexual partners) was not reasonable because James Bond is a man. Really. I didnt quite understand that a woman wasnt supposed to want a license to kill and fuck indiscriminately, and I was high school valedictorian. (I still don't really understand that particular social proscription, but at least I'm now AWARE of it. I still think it would be loads of fun to be James Bond) So being a brainiac and mildly socially retarded made me an obvious candidate for libertarianism. So maybe I'm just an outlier female.
As I previuosly mentioned, I dont perceive social cues, and I think there are many more social rules for women than men, and these rules are really concerned with controlling women's behavior. Ya know, like the double standard. Or smile, or be quiet, or share, or be nice. I think these rules are applied a lot more harshly to young girls than boys. And in an ironic twist, these rules are enforced on women by other women. Being a retard, I never understood that I was supposed to be chagrined by women's subtle exclusionary and ostracisizing behavior, so freedom and libertarianism made sense to me. To women who grow up concerned by the responses of people around them, freedom is a difficult concept to grasp. Women may have taught themselves to suppress their true, instinctual and carnal wants, and libertarianism is a philososphy that directly contradicts all the conditioning girls have been subjected to. Of course boys are socially conditioned too, but I just dont think they are punished as harshly when they step out of the social line. Men, too, have to overcome their social conditioning to grasp libetarianism, and I just think women have been conditioned more rigidly. Is there truth to the the theory that girls are more tractable, social, and cooperative, so it's in our natures to not be libertarian? Maybe. Sometimes I entertain the idea that motherhood makes women insane nanny state socialists. Once again, I dont understand motherhood because I REALLY REALLY FUCKIN HATE KIDS. Goddamnit, I cant think of anything worse than kids. I mean, waterboarding sounds better. So maybe I could be a freak of nature, but it seems that women may love the nanny state because it is the codification and the glorification of mommyhood. The federal government is the mommy writ large. Screw Big Brother--the government is Big Momma, constantly harping an d snapping at you to wear a helmet and eat your vegetables. Safety first! says the deranged mommie. So mommies love these laws that codify what they fuckin do all day, which is to tell children what to do, and if mommies vote correctly, then indirectly, these mommies get to tell EVERYBODY what to do. All the time. With unlimited power to enforce the rules.
Sorry about this long rant, but the lack of fellow libertarian females has always perplexed and concerned me. Without support of half the population, we're doomed. My favorite episode is "Arena" with the gorn.

[sr7]

I think I might be in love. If you happen to be a dude troll, 'shhh' don't tell. Give me this one.

[The Zim]

Agreed.

[sailshonan]

Does that mean you find my political views less interesting than my vagina? I would say that my vagina feels slighted, but I really prefer it up the ass-- so my vag is used to feeling underappreciated.

[sailshonan]

Correction-- "more interesting than my vagina..."

[El Duderino]

To be fair, men have millions of years of biological evolution drawing them to your vagina, whereas politics is a relatively young feature of humanity and is not necessarily driven by hardwired biological impulse.

The word vagina on this thread caught my eye like a cascade of 4th of July fireworks.

[Mr. FIFY]

Vaginas are cool!

[El Duderino]

Ahh huu huu... hey Beavis ahhhh like you said vagina. Huu huuu.

[sailshonan]

vagina vagina vagina. And titties...

[ink blot]

sailshohnan,
you are indeed a freak of nature since a society composed of women who hate kids wouldn't last long. Furthermore, your analysis that ascribes female support of big government to the projection of a desire to tell others what to do sounds more like a manifestation of your own unresolved issues with your mother. I would tell you to seek help, but I know that my advice would fall on deaf ears since you are clearly too childishly rebellious to listen to anything other than the cacophony of confused and disjointed inner voices that fill your every waking moment with torment and anguish.

[Lady Godiva]

So, what you are telling us, Freud, is you have a tiny penis? That comes through loud and clear in your every phrase. No worry we didn't get that message. Ink Blot has a tiny penis. Now that you have shouted it out to the entire world, doesn't it feel good you got that out there?

[ink blot]

Why do you assume I even have a penis?

It is not healthy to pander to a person with a troubled mind by pretending their confusion is wisdom and their social alienation is due to special insight rather than maladjustment.

[Lady Godiva]

Your porcelain tea cup writing style tells me that you are a bat shit crazy loo loo projecting all over the place. Sorry for not pandering to your illness, but you said it was unhealthy to do so.

[Lady Godiva]

But a little perspective. Suppose you are correct. What is the worst thing that could happen? She goes out in a blaze of glory and kills a couple of cops while doing so. Six days later her nine year old daughter who she tied up and gagged in the closet space of an unused rental property dies of thirst.

As bad as that may be, she is still less of a danger to society than the most mentally 'fit' politician in Washington DC, but I don't see you singling any of them out for patronizing abuse as you have sailshonan whose only crime we could possibly be aware of is she wrote a highly entertaining post. Get it through your head, dip shit, to a great extent everyone including you, including me, is affecting a character for the amusement of the audience of this forum. Most every female has similar fantasies as that of sailshonan, and she picked the ones that told the story she wanted to tell in the most entertaining manner she could. She succeeded admirably. Fuck you for your creepy bullshit 'analysis', you semi intelligent asshole.

[Polyhedril Caster]

You mean you have never had a guy back when you were a teen aged girl, freak out and yell, 'oh my God. That's a little dick!' when your clit popped out?
Then you tell him, 'relax, it is not even where I pee from.'

And, and then he asks you where you pee from, and you tell him to open the curtains and then you squirt a little piss in his face?

You have never done that? Cause that happened to me one time. Happens to everybody, right?

[XR4l]

Nice fuckhead.

[Joshua Corning]

you are indeed a freak of nature since a society composed of women who hate kids wouldn't last long.

Since when is someone judged as a freak because they are not optimally designed for making and raising children?

Besides a society with say 49% of its women that really like children and 51% who don't could function quite well in my opinion.

[sailshonan]

Last time I checked, a society full of men who hate kids wouldn't last long, either. But as I repeatedly emphasized in my post, society treats women who step out of line much more harshly than the men. I probably haven't stated anything about women vis a vis libertarianism that hasn't been posted before on this site, but hey, when a women says these things she's, umm, let me recount, a "childlishly-rebellious, socially alientated, maladjusted, tormented , anguished, freak of nature with unresolved mommie issues and a troubled minded filled with a cacophony of confused and disjointed inner voices." Hey, thanks, you've proven my point about how much harder it is for woman go against the tide, to embrace liberty and libertarianism, but maybe you are just I posting under a different name to prove myself right. (Because that's what the voices tell people like me do?) I also noticed that you like to tell people what's good for them. You would tell me to get help if I weren't irretrievably whacko, and then advised Godiva that she shouldn't be pandering to people who need mental help. And baiting the insane is no genius move either, because I might just make it a life priority to track you down and then have sex with your children. That would be a good starting point to "cure" my unnatural hatred of kids

[Charcoal]

sailshohnan - I agree with a lot of what you said about the conditioning or girls. It does take a different sort of girl to be a libertarian. Perhaps one that is a bit of a social outcast. I have been libertarian since as long as I was aware of politics (and before I even knew what libertarianism was). As a teenager, I rebelled against my gov. school (Libertarian Rock, anyone?) as well as social norms. In that time I reconditioned myself so as an adult it isn't a difficult stance to maintain.

Sadly, I have also seen that motherhood does tend for one to promote the nanny state. Despite previously similar sentiments on kids to yours, I am a mother (I just hate all kids but mine now). It's a depressing thought how so many mothers today are creating a world for the children where they can become nothing more than victims. They think their kids are victims of things like sex on TV or McDonald's but they don't understand how they are turning them into victims of the state.

Then again, my motto as a mom has never been "safety first" so maybe I'm a freak of nature too.

[Bombadil]

Of course boys are socially conditioned too, but I just dont think they are punished as harshly when they step out of the social line.

Boys who step out of the social line get medicated, arrested, or get the shit kicked out of them. I guess the grass is always a little greener on the other side ...

[The Zim]

The problem is really the social aspect. Women are really "trained" from a young age not to be involved in politics and, if they are, to be on the far left of social issues. I don't quite agree with a women's movement, really. I feel that an all-inclusive general movement that is clearly open to everyone would be more constructive. Isn't the point for female libertarians to mingle with male libertarians on equal footing? If that is the case, you want integration. Glorifying the difference (in this case, gender) is not the way to do that. It's like gays wanting to be a part of society but having a flag. That creates a social division that makes it harder to treat any member of that group as a close friend without any social traction.

[china wholesale]

I have no use for social conservatives.nice~~~~

[Polyhedril Caster]

Something we just have to live with. Libertarians are the chaotic neutrals of the political universe. We are not dastardly chaotic evil types, like a Tom Delay. We are not Lawful Evil like the maniacal and always planning wanton destruction Newt Gingrich. The lawful good Obama shines like a beacon, but that gets so Goddamn annoying like real fast.

We are chaotic neutrals, and nobody trust that alignment. We just don't care, and we don't gel well.

[Jen]

I've never seen political philosophies equated with D&D alignments before...it fits!

[Shoey]

Obama = Lawful Good?

oh please!

[Repeal the 19th Amendment]

Females are more inclined to control, manipulate, steal, deceive, etc, due to an acute inferiority complex. It is no surprise that they favor the politics of slavery.

[Polite Society]

Shush now with them truths, boy! We're supposed to ignore that crap!

[Slap the Enlightened!]

Ignoring unpleasant truths seems to be foundation of most modern political movements in the Western world, libertarianism no less than the rest of them. I expect this goes a long way in explaining why things have become so fucked up. How do expect to deal with realities you're not even allowed to acknowledge?

[Shoey]

it's the re-education camps for you my friend, men are NEVER supposed to say those things anymore.

[Audrey the Liberal]

Just because some women are statist control freaks doesn't mean all women are. Libertarian=Liberal=Respect for Individuality.

[yep]

There's been a lot written about the correlation between the number of women participating in democracy and the size of a country's given welfare state. Food for thought: http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/.....rage.html.

Discuss.

[Slap the Enlightened!]

There are opinions, and there are opinions.

[Ms. Radoo]

I suspect the lack of female Libertarians may have something to do with the weak, unprofessional leadership the party is saddled with. While I embrace the Libertarian platform, I find it disappointing that after 50 years, the party is less-known than the newcomer Tea Party.

It seems to me that the Libertarians don't understand how to raise money, form partnerships, or get their message out. And that is a shame.

[Joshua Corning]

We expect spontaneous order to solve these problems for us.

It is sort of embedded in our political philosophy.

The sad thing is we have a prime example of the founding fathers that in order to achieve a libertarian state (not even close to a perfect one, slavery and the lack of the women's vote kills this idea) and status quo one has to actually work at it. Hell they fucking went to war over it.

I am not saying we have kill people...only that we need to actually work to get what we want.

[tired dog]

Pretentious doesn't get anyone anywhere. Got to stop the silly 'how many angels on a pinhead' arguments.

[Lisa]

I'm a female, and I tell people I'm libertarian because they're more likely to understand that than "classically liberal", which I prefer.

Honestly, this is how I would break down most political motivations according to gender.

Female progressive: Progressive value system. Believes that individual morality is relative but still makes value judgments on collective entities.

Male progressive: wants to get laid, wants to make money, or wants power (almost all politicians fall into this category, even Republicans)

Male conservative: wants to keep money and stay out of jail

Female conservative: Traditional value system

Male libertarian: same as conservative, less the fear of jail part...with almost as many vices as the progressive, less the narcissistic ambition

Female libertarian: Social outcast who thinks too much.

I don't know about female libertarians who need a community of other female libertarians. That's foreign to me. Especially the blaming libertarians for more women not being libertarian part.

[Audrey the Liberal]

I'm a female, and I tell people I'm libertarian because they're more likely to understand that than "classically liberal", which I prefer. This part, well, THIS. The rest, eh, a bit to much stereotyping for my taste.

[Bingo]

Wow, the comments on this post...

[Snarky the Girl Wonder]

While there are, indeed, very few pro-liberty women, we're out there! I SWEAR. I'm a female libertarian and most of my friends are, indeed, female libertarians. But, then again, I live in DC where there are large circles of us. I certainly didn't know of any female libertarians when I lived in the Midwest.
I would have to agree with Ms. Gibbs' point that libertarians aren't understood because of their pretentious nature. Me and my female libertarian friends are all equally pretentious...and proud of it. Which could also attribute to the fact that we are "dateless wonders," as Mr. Cavanaugh states, along with our male brethren.

[mcpelvic]

Female libertarian: Social outcast who thinks too much. Yep that's me.

I became a libertarian because I found that no one in politics liked to think any more ESPECIALLY in the people's republic of Chicago. Either you belonged to the "tastes great" party or the "less filling" party. Mostly folks in Chicago all voted for Daley 2.0 and kept their heads down, and "backed no losers," as the late Mike Royko used to say. It's kind of scary what the Machine will do next with regard to the major's race in March, but well, you know.

As a broad who reads Murray Rothbard for fun and can't wait until I start my course at the Mises Institute in the winter, I know that I will never win any sort of popularity contest. Especially if I am excessively rude and bring up the how the Cato Institute's stand on the Citizen's United Case was spot on at any given social gathering.

Face it boys, Libertarianism is a hard sell. It just is. And it's not sexy at all. Why? Because thinking deeply about the Constitution and what government really is for, is simply not yet fashionable among either gender.

On the other hand, I do think the movement needs to at least consider the reasons why it is so damn unappealling to so-called minorities, and women and gays.

I don't think it's an exercise in navel gazing, but something worthy of careful consideration, accurate research and evaluation, and personal study and reflection.

And look dudes, I'm not saying this because I think that the libertarian movement SHOULD reach out to these groups of people, but rather, we all look more carefully at who is a libertarian and why. I think we could better define and brand the movement and, as a result, attract all kinds of people, people who are interested in liberty.

Best,
McPelvic

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

Libertarianism is a hard sell with chicks 'cause the modern chick has got all the freedom she wants. Hell, their version of freedom is kicking men around all the time. We need to enslave women first, then they'll embrace libertarianism. Yeah.

[Sanjuro Tsubaki]

Like OMG, this is totally cool. I gotta get me one of those libertarian chicks. Wouldn't know what to do with one, but WOW!

[mcpelvic]

Sanjuro Tsubaki, you are being very silly. If you advocate the enslavement of anyone, how could you consider yourself a libertarian? That doesn't make any sense. You are being silly, maybe you had too much to drink at dinner.

I personally like most men, and I know some men that actually liked being kicked around by women and will pay good money in the free market for that service.

Anyway, kid, this is my last post for this thread. I have to struggle with paper on Habermas. Just trying to keep it real with my subjective interpretation of reality, dig?

Peace out brother,

McPelvic

[LustyLib]

Nice boobs!

[El Duderino]

Uh huuu huu, Booobs... hu huu... hu huuu

[El Duderino]

And now we know why there are no female libertarians. Sorry ladies, its not easy to contain the inner Butthead.

[Becky Chandler]

Every few months some inquiring libertarian lameo feels the need to bring this question up for discussion: http://on.fb.me/gru1SC

[Hikawan]

I've been a libertarian for just over 10 years now and a female my whole life. There's nothing about boobs and libertarianism that are inherently incompatible. I think it has more to do with why there aren't more libertarians in general, and that's just having no idea that such sanity actually exists in this country.

That said, some men just don't know what to do with themselves when they see boobs, and it seems that college Libertarian groups are filled with these sorts of men. You know, like the guy at the last election night party I went to who barely stammered out that I had an "Ayn Rand nose". I shudder to think about what he did with those books at night...

More seriously though, the handful of men who have tried to "convert" me to libertarianism (some at these very meetings, because the female MUST have wandered in accidentally) seemed to think that my liberty-related concerns as a woman are limited to prostitution and abortion. Oh, if only I could legally sell my body and end my potential pregnancies, I could be truly free!

Here's a tip: While men and women have differences because of social conditioning and biology, the sexes are, fundamentally, HUMAN. Humans don't like being oppressed and want to be happy. Libertarianism is the only political philosophy that neither oppresses people nor sacrifices their happiness for whatever noble cause. That is how you "sell" libertarianism to anybody.

[El Duderino]

I like your explanation. I guess the question now is why aren't there more libertarian humans?

[Sy]

To your point about the social conditioning of women: It's other women doing the conditioning 95% of the time (see: ink blot troll). Why do you think that is?

[intellibelly]

As a libertarian female for 25+ years or so, I have found that I have been one of the cute young ones in the 80s and still was in the oughts! There is a teensy problem with recruitment here!! The males are so lacking in social skills, mostly living in their heads, that there is NO reason for me to make any effort to regularly attend any meetings or events. Namely, standing around in a circle at a cocktail party where it's already noisy makes it very difficult for a shorter person, let alone female, with a softer voice, to be heard. Even if I could be heard, I'd get interrupted, talked over, or have my sentences finished. Too many libertarian men are just pedantic a$$holes who assume that any stray females are complete neophytes and ignorami. Also in a movement where IQ is valued over EQ, sensitive women will not find good enough reasons to return. The only reason I do return is for talks, ideas, intellectual stimulation I will not find anyplace else, but I have given up on making women friends among libertarians. Over the years I've found boyfriends at such events. I eventually married outside of the belief system. As far as the Ladies of Liberty, good luck to them, but choose a less hackneyed logo - c'mon Rosie the Riveter??? How many zillion times has THAT been used, and also update your website before partaking in events such as Libertopia. "Under Construction" looks really unprofessional. Just my 2 cents.

[clarityinla]

It is isn't just women--most of the people I know, in my age group--about 50, that are upple-middle class, really are Libertarians, but they don't know it. So many people believe it is a waste of a vote if you don't vote for a Dem. or a Repub. That may be a big part of the problem. It's hard to argue with common sense--when you get people away from political labels, and just ask questions, it's surprising how many people can be "reasonable."

[CE]

How dare someone of her ilk call us "pretentious"! And we are NOT argumentative!!!!

[Jim]

Wow, what an unprofessional sleazy interview.

[sailshonan]

There are tons of female libertarians, but their numbers seem underrepresented because they are out working hard in the free market they love making shit tons of money. Male libertarians believe they are unappreciated,unrecognized geniuses so they hang out on forums like Reason all day trying to prove to each other they have bigger penises by lobbing semi-clever insults at one another, and all their puerile desperate attempts at wit create so much noise that it seems that all the libertarians are male. HeeHee

[Ralp]

The website of the Libertarian International Organization (www.Libertarian-International.org ) is running a series on work by world Libertarians who are on its advisory board.

Many are female. A study by the USLP found that over half their registrants were female, and many are in public office. So please, get the facts first.

[Shoey]

I have met women who claim to be libertarian, but when you question them about their beliefs I've always found they don't really have a clue what they believe, they just want everyone stop fighting and share with each other.

i am bitter?

being bitter would imply that I care.

[Dr. Quack]

As you know, women, like dogs, just want someone to pay attention to them. If whirled peas is the politic de jour, they will hump it like a rabbit hopped up on ice.

[Kyle Bennett]

Is Cavanaugh the secret love child of William F Buckley and Peter Falk?

I think I detected a barely suppressed bit of Andrew Dice Clay in there as well. His presence and style go a long way toward answering his own question.

[chaos punk]

Reason, individuality and logic often contradicts womanish pity. A more attractive philosophy for women would be PETA or something like that.

[spearweasel]

After plowing through nearly 500 comments, I have trouble understanding why this is called "Reason". For some reason I was expecting lots of erudite discussion about the topic... nah. Maybe 5% was on topic. This is nearly identical to Arfcom's GD board.

Are all of the comment sections at Reason like this one?

[Dr. Quack's sex crazed Poodle]

Failed to discern the erudite "REASON" in your post. This thread is refreshingly non-PC. Since the race-peddlers and whore-mongers have turned us into a nation afraid of white males, a nation addicted to central planning and social engineering experiments, a nation mortified by self reliance and personal independence, perhaps a healthy dose of "bigotry"/"sexism" is the just the thing to deliver us from the tyranny that abounds.

[Kevin Durant Shoes]

so perfect

[wubai]

How about mbt kisumu sandals this one: there are X driving deaths a year- what % of driving deaths (or serious injuries) involve alcohol, or other intoxicating substances? kisumu 2 People are pretty darn good drivers when they are not impaired.

[jiusuan]

good