Obamacare

Wasn't ObamaCare Supposed to Be Popular By Now?

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Politico declares th

Who would've thought that ObamaCare might not quickly become popular?

at "rarely have so many political strategists been so wrong about something so big" and runs down various on-the-record predictions made by Democratic health care supporters about how, once passed, the law would quickly rise in popularity and help team-D come November:

But when it comes to the health care bill, everyone from former President Bill Clinton on down whiffed on some of the more significant predictions.

Democrats would run aggressively on the legislation? Nope. Voters would forget about the sausage-making aspects of the legislative process? Doesn't seem that way, as the process contributed to the sense that the bill was deeply flawed.

And Clinton's own promise to jittery Democrats that their poll numbers would skyrocket after the bill finally passed also didn't pan out, as the party is fighting for its life in the midterms.

At the six-month mark, the law remains a riddle for political analysts, lawmakers and the White House.

It's not actually that much of a riddle, I think. As I've argued since before the law passed, there was never much reason to expect that its popularity would quickly turn around. Despite spending months involved in intensive outreach and messaging campaigns both before and after the law's passage, Democrats still seem to think that the problem is that the public doesn't understand the law's benefits. But there's some evidence that much of the public aware of the law's major benefits. The problem, I suspect, is that they're also aware of the law's costs. And, as a Zogby poll released the month before the law passed seemed to indicate, much of the public seems to think that despite the perks, which they like, the costs of the law outweigh the benefits.

NEXT: Velma Hart: Still Supports President, Denies Getting Larry Summers Fired

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  1. the law remains a riddle for political analysts

    Morons all!

    1. Threadjack:

      Pretty piss poor performance for a group that talks of freedom of speech and expression.

      1. So if you write something in a forum I own, I am restricting your freedom of speech if I delete it? Sorry but no, that’s not how it works.

        1. No one has restricted my freedom of speech, and Reason can run their website any way they want.

          As long as they are running the website.

          But there’s a big difference between Reason deleting comments because they don’t like them and secretly deleting them because of legal threats (if that is indeed the case).

          Secretly deleting information makes it disappear. Do you think it’s ok for legal threats to make information disappear, or should it be retracted?

          In other words, someone writes something on a forum you own in response to something you yourself put on that forum, and a third party threatens legal action if you don’t remove it.

          Do you acquiesce, or do you remove the material with an explanation that you are doing so because of threats from a third party?

      2. Phrased another way, if you write graffiti on the wall of my house, I am restricting your freedom of speech if I erase it?

        1. If you like the graffiti, but a third person comes along and finds some part of it objectionable, is your freedom of speech restricted if you are forced to paint over it (under a tarp in the middle of the night)?

  2. Wasn’t ObamaCare Supposed to Be Popular By Now?

    Yes, I was beginning to wonder . . .

  3. But there’s some evidence that much of the public aware of the law’s major benefits. The problem, I suspect, is that they’re also aware of the law’s costs.

    And that despite all superhuman efforts from the sausage-makers to obfuscate the costs. People, as they suddenly discovered and despite what Bill Maher thinks, are intelligent after all.

    1. I’m skeptical, but you may just be right.

  4. We told you we hated the bill, losers.

  5. We may be dumb, but we’re not stupid.

    1. “Now I may be an idiot sir, but there’s one thing I am not sir, and that sir is an idiot…OOO! Spear of Destiny!!!1!”

  6. Wasn’t ObamaCare Supposed to Be Popular By Now?

    Maybe right after the Summer of Recovery?

    1. And after the ocean levels drop. And unemployment fails to rise as high as 8%. And after all the debates are on C-SPAN. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera…

  7. Most companies roll over their benefits plans in the last quarter of the year.

    Health insurance costs are going up, and the share passed on to employees is goig up also (where companies aren’t just dropping coverage). You don’t have to be a genius to understand that mandatory benefits drive up costs.

    A lot of people won’t get the bad news until after election day, but a lot of people will. Even those that don’t, will have a good sense that they’re going to take it in the shorts.

    So the first impact of this bill is all becoming very real to people. And it won’t help Team Blue, not one bit.

    1. Even those who won’t see the increase until after will almost assuredly have been warned about it by their employer beforehand.

      1. We’ve just gotten notices about changes to our plan. No word on changes in cost yet.

        1. Having managed benefits for a company before, I can tell you that health insurance deals are generally inked at least two months before the plan year starts.

          So, any company that is renewing for Jan 1st have a pretty good idea today what the glitter and unicorns coming down the pipe really look like.

        2. In the long term, the bill is suppose to reduce health care costs…
          in the long term, we’re all dead.

          seriously, in a system mired in inefficiency predominately due to government rules, mandates, and price opacity…the solution is more rules, mandates, and price opacity.

  8. I liked the bill when I got on my parent’s helath insurance because I’m under 26. Now I hate it because I got a job.

  9. Wasn’t ObamaCare Supposed to Be Popular By Now?

    This is clearly just because the American people haven’t read the bill yet or don’t have the reading comprehension skills to understand the benefits. This requires immediate action. I propose $100 billion in emergency funds for English teachers!

    1. You think it was written in *English*?

  10. Why the hell were they thinking the bill would be popular?

    Most of them DIDN’T EVEN FUCKING READ IT before they voted!!!

    As an aside, here’s a great Friedman quote I saw earlier….”Don’t throw the bums out“..Christ do we need another Friedman…

    1. we need to make it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing

      And how do you do that then the process is so corrupted that the will of the people is irrelevant?

  11. It could also be the costs are initially visible while the benefits are long term and hidden to an extent- I mean does anyone want to seriously argue that people will be okay with Pre-existing conditions being banned again- even the GOP has essentially conceded on this.

    1. does anyone want to seriously argue that people will be okay with Pre-existing conditions being banned again

      God that is soooooo depressingly true. My liver curses you in advance.

    2. No, the fundamental problem is that insurance is used to manage risk. It is mathematically impossible for insurance to pay for certainty without having premiums as high as the cost of the certain event itself.

      It’s the same reason you can’t buy private flood insurance for a beach front house on the Gulf Coast. It is not a question of if the house will be severely damaged but only of when. The cost of the premiums will be the cost of the mortgage payment.

      By forcing “insurance” companies to pay for certain cost, you fundamentally violate the mathematics of their operation. They cease being institution to guard against the financial consequences of statistical events and instead become just redistribution agents moving money from who are currently healthy to those who are currently ill.

      This of course will make private insurance to expensive to all but the rich. This is an intentional act to destroy private insurance in the guise of making it more humane. The goal of the left is to make us all utterly dependent on the state to keep us alive.

      That is true power.

      1. I am interested in your ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

    3. “It could also be the costs are initially visible while the benefits are long term and hidden to an extent”

      Very well hidden!

      “I mean does anyone want to seriously argue that people will be okay with Pre-existing conditions being banned again.”

      It doesn’t take 2,500 pages to insure people with pre-existing conditions. And I haven’t heard anyone against this bill saying we shouldn’t do anything to help those with pre-existing conditions. No one serious, anyways.

      1. I have a preexisting condition. YOU CAN STILL GET FULL INSURANCE, ever since Clinton anyway.

        It’s called HIPPAA Section 5. It’s “expensive”. $2500/deductible (no co-payments — pay out of pocket until deductible is met) / $393 mo in my state for woman my age / only 80% of bills paid after deductible is met until yearly max ($6000) is reached. However they do have Blue Cross Blue Shield managing it here in Illinois, and they knock the bills in half. You have to exhaust COBRA to get this benefit.

        Ironically, ObamaCare’s restrictions on deductibles and 3 “FREE” visits (WTF…nothing is free! What sort of idiots do they think we are?) will drive up costs of my plan which I am quite happy with.

        1. Plans like that were the norm before the socialist Nixon.

          1. Yeah. Republicans. Democrats…

            They’re all politicians and want to give us stuff for “nothin'”

            ‘Course, it really started with FDR’s wage freezes. Companies couldn’t compete for talent with salary so they used health benefits instead.

  12. From the Politico article:

    A week before final passage, Democratic pollsters Douglas Schoen and Pat Caddell, who had worked for Clinton, pierced the optimism. They wrote a Washington Post op-ed warning the party had deluded itself into thinking that Americans wanted the bill. And as a result, they wrote, Democrats ran the risk of “unmitigated disaster” in November.

    The Washington establishment responded in kind. Obama pollster Joel Benenson shot back that Schoen and Caddell were peddling “Republican myths.” The American Enterprise Institute’s Norm Ornstein and the Brookings Institution’s Thomas Mann penned a response column that started out by describing Schoen and Caddell as “disgruntled (if not former) Democrats.”

    Thus providing more evidence that leftist ideologues have a penchant for using Ad Hominem attacks and character assassination instead of valid arguments.

    So they were warned, in time, yet the Dems wanted to do a Bill Maher and shove the bill down everybody’s throats like the little tyrants they all are.

    1. leftist ideologues have a penchant for using Ad Hominem attacks and character assassination instead of valid arguments

      They haven’t a monopoly on that strategy.

      1. Re: Anonymous,

        They haven’t a monopoly on that strategy.

        And nobody is arguing otherwise, wiseguy: I said that they have a penchant for it.

        1. As do their opponents. Neither “side” has clean hands. Sean Hannity, meet Ed Schultz.

    2. Those damned leftist ideologues at AEI!

  13. I saw that evil, spastic, bobble-headed goblin Anita Dunn on (what else?) MSNBC today, trumpeting her propaganda achievement and confidently predicting (again) that now, as the first parts of the bill go into effect, Americans will be loath to give anything back. Such is the wisdom and compassion and foresight of the regime. How can anyone not like them?

  14. It is more popular?and surprisingly so.

    In a matter of months, the G.O.P. went from all voting against it to Pledging to replace it with…itself. I thought it would take them a full election cycle to get there. But nope. Show’s over. And they didn’t even play their hit.

    Sure, the voters hate Obamacare, and they probably always will, because for most of them it’s a net loss that’ll only get lossier, but voters don’t get to decide things.

    Not consciously, anyway.

  15. Some Senate Democrats, including Barbara Boxer of California and Michael Bennet of Colorado, ignore the law altogether in the health care section of their campaign websites. They don’t take credit for helping pass the Affordable Care Act.

    Well, they must be part of the big right-wing scare-mongers to spread misinformation about the wonderful benefits this new law brings, like having to file a 1099 for every single purchase above $600.00 USD that you or I make…

    Oh, that IS in the law . . . no wonder even Boxer does not want to take credit for it.

    1. I think they revised that provision out of the law recently.

      I think I remember Axelrod saying something about cleaning one end of a turd.

  16. Democrats would run aggressively on the legislation? Nope. Voters would forget about the sausage-making aspects of the legislative process? Doesn’t seem that way, as the process contributed to the sense that the bill was deeply flawed.

    And Clinton’s own promise to jittery Democrats that their poll numbers would skyrocket after the bill finally passed also didn’t pan out, as the party is fighting for its life in the midterms.

    Nobody has said it better.

    1. What the fuck does Clinton know about what’s good for Democrats? All he knows is what’s good for saving his own pale flabby ass.

    2. What the fuck does Clinton know about what’s good for Democrats? All he knows is what’s good for saving his own pale flabby ass.

      In less than two years, he managed to end his party’s forty-year dominance of the House of Representatives, lost a shitload of statehouses, and gave all of Congress to the Republicans for the next twelve years.

      The dress-spooging doofus got himself elected, but otherwise he was a electoral disaster for the Democrats.

      And goddamn, he can’t even learn from his own biggest mistake. Trying to ram Hillarycare through cost his party control of Congress; why would he expect anything different from Hillarycare 2: Electric Boogaloo?

  17. March 2010: “We’ve passed healthcare reform!”

    May 2010: “Poll numbers will turn around after the American people become educated to the benefits of the legislation.”

    June-August 2010: “Come on you idiots. Why don’t you understand how great this is for you. You’re all being lied to by the right-wing media. You ‘tards, don’t you understand that this works in Europe.”

    September 2010: “We’re screwed.”

  18. March 2010: “We’ve passed healthcare reform!”

    May 2010: “Poll numbers will turn around after the American people become educated to the benefits of the legislation.”

    June-August 2010: “Come on you idiots. Why don’t you understand how great this is for you. You’re all being lied to by the right-wing media. You ‘tards, don’t you understand that this works in Europe.”

    September 2010: “We’re screwed.”

    1. October 2010: “Let’s give a round of applause for Sean Penn as he explains the greatness of the healthcare reform legislation we passed.”

      October 2010: Sean Penn: “You uneducated masses that watch your mindless sports and fail to understand the beauty that is the glorious messiah named Obama.”

      November 2010: “We have some sad news to report. Police reports are coming out that state that Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Keith Olbermann, and Rachel Maddow have committed suicide by shotgun blasts to the head. President Obama remains in critical condition.”

      1. Doubtful. You’re forgetting that they’ll keep recounting until they get the result they want.

  19. American nativist assholes don’t want blacks and hispanics getting health care on their nickle even if they get better health care too. But irrational as these wackos are, they’re not quite irrational enough to swallow the libertarian Kool-Aid, so don’t wet your pants over this Suderman, you stupid fuck.

    1. I love you Max!

    2. Thank you for your insightful comments. Rest assured that we value your input.

    3. Thank you, Max.

    4. Max is a Republican plant, right?

      It’s a rather crude form of rightwing propaganda.

    5. Max, would you vote for Newt Gingrich if he changed his name to “Newcular Titties”?

      1. I don’t know about Max, but I’d vote for anyone named Newcular Titties.

    6. They don’t have a monopoly on, but it is their primary strategy.

    7. Re: Max,

      American nativist assholes don’t want blacks and hispanics getting health care on their nickle[…]

      I don’t want whites getting health care on MY nickle – what’s your point, Max? Do YOU want people to get healthcare on YOUR nickle?

      1. No, he wants to get healthcare on your nickel. Or mine. Anybody, as long as it isn’t his.

  20. I think that the conceptual problem that leftists when pushing this type of legislation is that they really don’t have much interaction with the business end of government. Leftists, especially the seriously ideological leftists, tend to work in professions shielded from direct government regulation e.g. academia, activist organizations, the media, law etc. They simply don’t see the nuts and bolts operation of the state the way a small business person does.

    This distance allows them to generate a fantasy about how efficient and fair the government is versus the private sector. Given that leftists are generally fantasy driven in the first place, this particular fantasy completely absorbs them. They begin to conclude that everyone who doesn’t share their blind adoration of the state must be deluded.

    Unfortunately for the left, more and more Americans work in fields where they encounter government regulation continuously. More people are self-employed now than at anytime since people left the farms. More people have to manage their own complex taxes. More people have to deal with zoning, employment and “safety” regs. More people see the serious flaws in how real-world government operates.

    This is why there is such a disconnect between leftists expectation and the reality of how most Americans see promises of more services at lower cost. Leftists are simply to insular and provincial to understand how experience has taught most Americans to view government. Most people have to work from reality, not leftists fantasies.

    The left is banking on controlling people via dependency. If they can get enough people hooked on government medical care, they can use that as a lever to destroy private medical care utterly. We shouldn’t celebrate victory yet. We will have to move fast to undo the damage before too many people are dependent on the left for their very lives.

    1. The left is banking on controlling people via dependency.

      Sure. And the right is hoping to go back to controlling people through socially conservative law.

      1. Both are bad, but the dependency is much harder to break.

      2. The right wants to meddle with my sex life. That is bad.

        The left wants to meddle with literally everything except my sex life. That is much worse.

        People who will surrender control over their water, food, clothing, shelter, medical care, transportation, education, information, environment, jobs, businesses and everything else just so they can get laid are idiots.

        Our forbearers survived quite nicely under much worse social restrictions than anything the contemporary right has contemplated reimposing. We’ll all live should that come to pass and such restriction are easy to change compared to material restrictions.

        However, history is very clear that once the state controls the material existence of individuals, millions of people start dying. Material control is the first necessity of an oppressive state. You can ‘t oppress people when they don’t need the state to keep them alive.

        So, unfortunately, we have to choose between which type of busy bodies we want. Long term, the left is far, far more dangerous than social conservatives.

        1. How, pray tell, is the right attempting to control your sex life? Because I don’t know of any legislation, planned or pondered, that would change the frequency or quality of my sexual encounters.

          1. Yes, it is impossible for Republicans to decrease the frequency of your sexual encounters when it is equal to zero.

            I keed. I keed.

        2. The right wants to meddle with my sex life. That is bad.

          Nobody cares how many times a day you jerk it Shannon.

          1. My webcam hits say otherwise.

  21. Thanks everybody! More customers, and the Democrats get blamed when we raise premiums just like we always do!

    1. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

      Oh, those innocent Dems! So, are they innocent and fucking retarded not to have seen this, or complicit scum?

      Your choice, asslicker.

      1. I choose fucking retarded complicit scum.

        1. You choose…wisely.

    2. Nope. You’re still the scapegoat. And you’ll be gone soon. We’ll demagogue the fuck out of you, and we’ll pass single-payer the next time we get control of Congress and the White House. It might take another 20 years, but we’ll get there.

  22. This bill is good for people who work in the health care industry. Insurance companies will merge until there are 4 to 6 left in the country. However, small direct care organizations with networks of nursing homes and rehabs will become direct payees from Medicare/Medicaid.

    1. Have you seen the reimbursement rates for Medicare and Medicaid?

      1. Yeah. Nobody said these networks of nursing homes and rehab were going to be, you know, First World health care.

  23. But, but we modeled it on cash for clunkers which everybody knows was wildly popular. Not just popular, but wildly popular. How could affordable access to health insurance not be even more wildly popular? Where did we go wrong?

  24. Unless you are rich, good luck paying for that open heart surgery once the Republicans get their hands on this wonderful new law that they will asphyxiate like a teen age boy getting his throat stuffed with a tie.

  25. Obama care.Thats funny ..since the plan is 100% heritage foundation republican ideas,including the mandate.

    You know just like the one Romney pulled on Massachusetts?Except Obama’s is more conservative.Romneycare pays for abortion.

    Thats how clever you idiots are.Doesnt being played for fools ever get old?

    1. frog in a pot|9.23.10 @ 9:48PM|#
      “…Doesnt being played for fools ever get old?”
      Doesn’t being an ignoramus ever get tiring?

  26. The healthcare plan is the bare minimum that human decency should allow.Sad that we had to fight just to get there.

    Starting today, insurers will be required to:

    ?Keep you covered when you get sick: Simple mistakes or typos will no longer be grounds for insurance companies to cancel your insurance.
    ?Cover kids with pre-existing conditions: Your kids can no longer be denied health coverage just because they have a pre-existing condition like hay fever, asthma, or previous sports injuries. This protection extends to all plans, except “grandfathered” plans in the individual market.
    ?Allow young adults to stay on their parents’ plan up to age 26: Even if their first few jobs don’t provide health benefits, your kids can still remain covered by your insurance.
    ?Remove lifetime limits: You will no longer need to worry about your health insurer limiting the amount of coverage available through their plan if you face an expensive medical condition. This will help Americans who develop chronic conditions from taking drastic measures to avoid medical bankruptcy.
    ?Phase out annual limits: Many plans include annual dollar limits on how much medical coverage can be obtained per year. On all non-“grandfathered” plans in the individual market, these limits will be phased out over the next three years.
    For any insurance plan that goes into effect after September 23, 2010, your insurance company must:

    ?Pay for preventive care like mammograms and immunizations: Addressing problems before they start can help keep you healthier, and new insurance plans will now cover many preventative tests and immunizations without any copayment.
    ?Give you a better appeals process for insurance claims: Now you’ll have a guaranteed and fair path to help you receive the benefits you paid for if insurance companies deny your claim.
    ?Let you choose your own doctor: Health reform makes it clear that you can choose any available participating primary care provider as your provider, and any available participating pediatrician to be your child’s primary care provider.
    ?Provide easier access to OB-GYN services: Women will no longer be required to have a referral from a primary care provider before seeking coverage for obstetrical or gynecological (OB-GYN) care from a participating OB-GYN specialist.
    ?Allow you to use the nearest emergency room without penalty: If an emergency arises while you’re away, you will no longer have to drive home to your in-network provider to receive in-network benefits.
    Many other new benefits of the law have already taken effect, including rebate checks for seniors in the donut hole and tax credits for small businesses. Keep watching, as more rights, protections and benefits for Americans are on the way now through 2014.

    To learn more about how health care reform is helping you, visit healthcare.gov.

    So can one of you libertarian genius’s explain to me how we as a country can compete internationally when we are the ONLY industrial country without a national healthcare plan?

    You know that get the cost of healthcare off the backs of business?

    1. FIAP, don’t waste your time trying to explain this bill to these ideological cry-babies.

      It is an objective fact that the good points of the bill outweigh the bad ones. The only two reasons to be against the bill are apathy to those in need or stupidity/ignorance concerning the bills good points.

      The bigger issue is the lack of intelligent commentary from the other supposed progressives on this board. Chad usually just copies what I say, albeit with a more populist, simplistic bent. Max uses crude, unsophisticated insults to make his point, almost bringing him down to the anti-intellectual level of those who follow “Reason.” And, seriously, with a name like frog in a pot, you can’t expect to get past security at a progressive fundraiser. The likes of you are tarnishing the progressive name.

      1. What about that MNG? He reminds me of a guy I once hired to dig some trenches for me, always being Mister Contrary. What are you planning on doing with them? What are you planning on doing with them. He might as well be a GOP hack most days.

        1. With a name like “Pogo the Clown,” I have no intention of engaging with you.

          1. Gee, Tony, are you afraid of someone who might have stayed in school beyond the third grade?

          2. Woo wee, some shit weasel thinks he is higher than Dan Rostenkowski (RIP, old friend) in the Democrat pecking order when he ain’t nothing but bird shit on a baseball cap to most people. Most Democrats don’t mind me doing fundraisers for them, but not Tony!

            1. If the Democrats lose the House or the Senate this coming November, it is people like you who are to blame for giving the Progressives a black eye with such vulgar rhetoric.

          3. Given those awesome rhetorical skillz you have on display, Tony-tone, I’ll be sure to recommend you be a participant in our next party recruitment drive. HA HA HA HA HA

          4. With a name like “Pogo the Clown,” I have no intention of engaging with you.

            Yeah, how immature do you have to be to pick a name like that?

      2. The only two reasons to be against the bill are apathy to those in need or stupidity/ignorance concerning the bills good points.

        Oh, get over yourself. This kind of self-rightous arrogance is exactly why “progressives” are so hated these days. You can’t go five seconds without pointing out how incredibly intelligent and moral you are compared to everyone else. You act like we should all be so glad you’ve deigned to talk with us. I’ve pretty much come to the point where I think this is the entire point of leftism, it just gives some people the narrative they need to feel superior. A little humility would go a long way.

        Reason is filled with articles taking a detailed look at the inherent problems of having the government manage medical care for 300 million people. The typical leftists response is usually, “Well, we can’t think of anything else so we just have to have FAITH in the State.” Government action becomes a kind of rhetorical pixie dust you sprinkle on everything to make it magically work.

        Well, for those of us who don’t have religious faith in the state, we require some answers. And no, I long list of free stuff isn’t an answer because we know that free is not free when the government is involved. We also know of the profound hidden non-monetary cost involved such as the suppression of innovation.

        The commentary from leftist on reason is about the same level of commentary from leftists every where. The arguments are usually simply that leftists are smart and compassionate and everyone who disagrees with them is dumb and selfish. You really don’t have a deep intellectual life and you really don’t think about the nuts and bolts of the policies you implement. For the rest of us however, the devil is in the details.

        1. Oh, get over yourself. This kind of self-rightous arrogance is exactly why “progressives” are so hated these days.

          This.

      3. Chad Tony usually just copies what I say, albeit with a more populist, simplistic bent.

        FIFY.

        Asshole!

    2. Yes, all the benefits are very nice but “leftists genius” that you are, you forgot to mention one thing: how does this all get paid for? There is nothing remarkable about the long laundry list of benefits you present. Of course, it is trivial for the government to hold a gun to the insurance companies head and tell them they have to offer benefits. The only trick is that insurance companies will have to raise rates for everyone to pay for the benefits of a few.

      What are you going to do about people who can then no longer afford health insurance? How does the new system help them?

      What economically naive people like you don’t understand is that insurance companies largely just manage the flow of money from premiums to payouts for claims. They don’t have giant magical pile of cash in the back room to pay for everyone’s whims. When the government mandates increased payouts, premiums rise automatically.

      So can one of you libertarian genius’s explain to me how we as a country can compete internationally when we are the ONLY industrial country without a national healthcare plan?

      Right, because we’re getting our asses kicked by Sweden because they’re such a low-cost manufacturing region. Can you explain to me how increasing insurance cost on businesses makes us more competitive? Can you explain to me how massively increasing taxes to pay for socialized medicine makes us more competitive? Even if it did, it would only mean that taxpayers that don’t export are subsidizing exporters. In other words, we would be making exporters richer while making everyone else more poor.

      You call libertarians stupid without answering any of their objections. How will we control cost? Does the government have a proven track record of controlling cost? Do socialized systems have a better track record of controlling cost? What are the tradeoffs of socialize medicine in terms of quality and innovation long term? What has the experience of the states in providing socialized medical care shown us?

      There is no such thing as a free lunch. I wish people like you would understand that.

      1. Well said Sir/Madame. Don’t expect any form of cogent reply.

      2. The 800lb gorilla that goes unspoken is that we are subsidizing the rest of the world’s bills pharmaceutical bills. If the republicans want to stink up the joint for the rest of the world (and lower costs here) they ought to limit the price of in patent prescription drugs to the lowest price sold in either Canada, the EU, Australia or Japan. True it would essentially end the drug companies R & D efforts but you can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs.

        If and when the US were to make such a move it would force the other countries to pay more of the drug costs and lessen our costs, an equilibrium in price where the drug companies can recover their R & D expenses over all users and not just the American user. That would probably bankrupt most of those countries health coverage schemes but that is not our problem. Time to man-up and stop being patsies for the Canadian’s and Europeans.

        Shannon your posts are succinct and to the point. What the progs consider socially just insurance is the equivalent of taking out a homeowner’s policy while your house is on fire. What the progs want isn’t insurance. It’s prepaid medical care, an all you can eat buffet but with someone else picking up part or all of their tab. My problem is your obligation is their motto. Give them credit, shy they ain’t.

    3. Re: frog in a pot,

      ?Keep you covered when you get sick: Simple mistakes or typos will no longer be grounds for insurance companies to cancel your insurance.

      If only the government was held to such level of perfection . . .

      So can one of you libertarian genius’s explain to me how we as a country can compete internationally when we are the ONLY industrial country without a national healthcare plan?

      Compete internationally against whom?

    4. Lets break it down shall we?

      * Allow young adults to stay on their parents’ plan up to age 26 – kids can get on HIPPAA section 5 (just like me!) if they have pre-existing conditions and can’t get insurance after age 26. One of my friends got her insurance this way.
      * Cover kids with pre-existing conditions – Already done in my state (IL) if you sign up for insurance for your child within 30 days of birth.
      * Remove lifetime limits – you can already have exorbitantly high lifetime limits, you just have to pay extra for them. What’s wrong with that?
      * Phase out annual limits – What state do you live in? I don’t have these — not for my husbands private plan, my state plan, or the HMO I was on before.
      * Pay for preventive care like mammograms and immunizations – Uh, where do you think the $ to pay for these things is going to come from. YOUR PREMIUMS. It’s not a free give away. Now people w/ high deductibles shop around, bringing down costs for everyone, w/ this included in premiums they have less incentive to do so and providers have less incentive to lower costs.
      * Let you choose your own doctor – again you can already do this if you pay for it (I do).
      * Provide easier access to OB-GYN services – I have NEVER had a problem with this on an HMO or now under the state plan I’m on. Perhaps women who do are on super budget plans. It should be their RIGHT to be on super budget plans.
      * Allow you to use the nearest emergency room without penalty – again, no insurance company I’ve dealt with has ever denied me this (or my husband, he’s on a different plan).
      * You know that get the cost of healthcare off the backs of business?
      Ummm…you do know that the cost increases brought on by this plan are going to be on my back, right?

      The only things I think would be good is an independent agency that reviews unclaimed claims, so consumers don’t get screwed.

      I LIKE my plan and my husband/son’s plan although we’re supposedly “under insured”. But my premiums are going to go up because to pay for 3 “FREE” visits and a federally mandated lower deductible.

      1. Well, it sounds like you are getting all the benefits of Obamacare, but just don’t care if anyone else does.

        1. No kes, f you read, you’ll see the benefits ALREADY exist for everyone if they are willing to investigate their options and be prepared to pay for them.

          Because YOU WILL PAY FOR THEM ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. Whether in taxes, or in reduced job opportunities or both.

        2. Kes dear,

          I also don’t get all the “benefits” that ObamaCare decrees I MUST have. My deductible is “too high” and I don’t have copays — I meet my deductible first, and then my insurance kicks in. And there are no “free” doc visits.

          My post was actually to point out that MOST of the benefits of ObamaCare are out there (with the exception of an oversight board). We didn’t need 2000+ pages of extra legislation that will make insurance more expensive (see comments on deductibles and “free” visits).

    5. A 26 year old adult needs to be covered by their parents insurance? Should we raise the age of majority to 27?

      Or is that the progressives are tacitly admitting that their economic policies are such such an epic failure that a 26 year old cannot get a job with their policies in place that offers a health plan? Or a job at all?

      The rest of you post is gibberish. All of the points you made that argue against private insurers are equally true of medicaid,medicare and state provided health care schemes and unlike private insurers you have less recourse against a government provider than a private provider.

      By the way what are you going to do when your doctor decides to stop taking government insured patients and instead will only take privately insured or cash paying patients?

      All of your hype aside, the Democrat-Obamacare bill is simply a way to shift costs from the public sector to the private sector. The government reimbursement rates are being lowered and by forcing doctors and hospitals to balance bill the insurance companies for the medicaid and medicare payment reductions is the only way they can keep doctors from dropping both altogether.

      1. My bad. Apologies for replying to you instead of the frog.

    6. Human decency? What is ‘decent’ about coercing poor twenty-year olds to subsidize wealthy sixty year olds? I didn’t graduate high school with a pension, pal. I don’t collect Social Security. Every dollar in my pocket (or not in my pocket) has had to come from a wage, salary or sale.

      And what’s ‘decent’ about forcing people to pay for abortions?

      Oh, and international competition. Wonderful. Saying we are going to borrow and tax our way to nimble commercial success is like saying I’m going to drink and smoke myself into sheer athleticism.

      Here’s a quick idea: Without a national healthcare plan, we could decouple employment from healthcare.

      “Here’s your salary, Jim. It’s a bit more than last year, notice, but that’s because we’re no longer buying your health insurance plan.”

      And Jim gets what he wants or needs without forcing every company to fit every one of their employees, and their kids, and the people down the street, into “Cadillac” plans. Think that might save some cash, might, maybe make us competitive? Yep.

  27. frog in a pot|9.23.10 @ 9:58PM|#
    “The healthcare plan is the bare minimum that human decency should allow.Sad that we had to fight just to get there….”
    Sad that a supposed human would make such a brain-dead claim.

  28. Obamacare is popular. Every day more and more people want it repealed.

    Obama could at least do us all a favor and just fucking repeal it himself so that we dont all have to endure a quarter decade of bullshit townhall meetings where every jackass that voted for this monstrous sideways x-mas tree assfuck of a bill tries to convince the little people how fucking great it is.

    If obamacare were a cologne, it would be the only one at the store that smells like hooker pussy and nobody would ever buy it except for the people who concocted the terrible vial of post coital STD laden fluid.

  29. And nobody even knows whats in the bill, because it reads like a fucking MC Escher illustration.

    1. ha! that’s awesome.

      1. I have to be careful, the way the news cycles work these days there is bound to be the compulsory story about how popular it is to bash obamacare.

        or did I already miss it, sorry, I de-programed NBC and its various cable brands from my cablebox to avoid having to endure green week every other week.

  30. I guess I just don’t understand the mindset it takes to feel comfortable with telling people what their morals should be. Last I checked, all the people who care so deeply about healthcare for (insert group) are free to set up a not for profit to support (insert group) free of coercion and without stealing other people’s money to fund it. Am I wrong? I’m not the sharpest pencil in the box, but that seems viable to me.

    1. You might not be the sharpest pencil, but you make a good point.

      Everyone loves a good pun.

    2. You of course make perfect sense to a normal person, but to the progressive mind, the federal government IS the “insert group”.

      You see they realize that the federal government is the only entity with the power to enforce its will by threat of violence. If a private group used violence to push its agenda, they would call it Al-Qaeda or the Mafia or in your words (insert totalitarian power structure operating outside of the law to push its own ideals or beliefs on society here).

  31. Andy Griffith was paid government money, which used to be our money, to make an advertisement extolling the virtues of OmongrelCare. Funny thing happened – his popularity plummeted. Smooth move, Andy, you ol’ senile communist millionaire.

    1. There is no fool like an old fool. Ole Andy just pissed away fifty years of goodwill with the public, especially the public that liked him.

      Why entertainers sprout their views baffle me. No matter what your view is your bound to piss of someone and that someone is the person that buys the entertainment you sell.

  32. Your racist opposition to the president’s health care bill is noted.

    Racists.

    1. Lawdy has anyone seen my pointy hood. The grand wizard sho aint gonna be pleased that I done lost another pointy hood.

  33. This is all technically true, and collectively nonsense.

  34. frog in a pot wrote:”?Allow young adults to stay on their parents’ plan up to age 26: Even if their first few jobs don’t provide health benefits, your kids can still remain covered by your insurance.”

    Our 23-year-old, kicked off our policy last spring for reaching the age limit, may be allowed back on our policy — for an extra $800 a month! Heck, it’s cheaper to pay for his occasional Ritalin & specialty eye care out of pocket. I am so disappointed in the new law that I could cry.

  35. Wasn’t libertarianism supposed to be popular by now? Or are you all jealous that “Obamacare” has more support from the public after 6 months than you were able to generate after 40 years?

    1. Re: Bitches Deserve It,

      Wasn’t libertarianism supposed to be popular by now?

      You mean it isn’t???

    2. Its only popular among progressive politicians who had a hand in passing the bill and the various talking heads in the news who were complicit. I have liberal friends who think this thing is a cheap hooker with no vagina. Unfortunately, my liberal friends are only upset because it is not single payer, but I am sure once they get a dose of that medicine, they will be begging for the old days. Hopefully, they come to reason before any serious damage is done.

  36. It will be interesting to see how the Democratic Party strategy works: “You don’t like Obamacare because you’re fucking stupid.” Yeah, spitting on the voters should bring them in droves.

    1. Ahh yes, the old “your stupid” argument. I used this against that asshole that stole my brown crayon and then claimed it was his when I was in kindergarten. As I recall, it landed me in the principals office.

      1. Haa haa!!!

        Im rubber and your glue, everything you say bounces off of me and sticks to you.

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