Barack Obama

BigGovernment.com's Michael Flynn on Prospects for an Obamacaring World

|

On the health care bill that will or won't pass tonight, I forfeited my crystal-ball punditry card after Scott Brown won Teddy Kennedy's old Senate seat, responding whenever asked that reform was officially dead and the only real endgame now was managing the public relations failure in a way to maximize political advantage for November. Even if the thing doesn't pass tonight, that analysis will be wrong. So don't ask me what will happen if it does.

Instead, ask Michael Flynn! Flynn is Reason's former director of government affairs, a longtime political observer/operator, and now editor in chief of Andrew Breitbart's BigGovernment.com. And he predicts…pain:

A new beginning….

[T]oday's vote isn't the end, but just a new beginning in the debate over health care. Buckle up, because if they manage to cobble together enough votes to pass the Senate Health Bill today, we're set for weeks and perhaps months of a constitutional and political crisis the likes of which we haven't seen in our lifetimes.

In a matter of hours after House passage of the Senate Bill, the state of Virginia will file suit in federal court. The Commonwealth will be joined in the suit by a dozen other states. I expect a flood of additional lawsuits. The suits will be based on the provision that requires every American to purchase health insurance. (This is how the Dems 'crack down' on the insurance industry; by requiring everyone to buy its product?) Because this is an individual mandate, virtually every American has standing to file suit against this provision. Also, it is in direct conflict with state law in at least two states, Idaho and Virginia.

While the legal battles wage on, expect an enormous public backlash against the Democrats. Longtime political observers will recall the backlash after Democrats passed a "catastrophic health care" bill in the 80s. That event pales in comparison to what is brewing. Yesterday, around 30,000 people protested on the steps of the Capitol, an event that was organized in just a little over 24 hours. In cities throughout the country, protests and rallies broke out, each attended by hundreds of citizens with only a few hours notice.  This kind of spontaneous public outcry has never happened in any of our lifetimes. Today, many of these protesters are buoyed by a faith that reason will prevail and the Democrats will stand down from their position of willful disdain for the American people. If that doesn't happen tonight, then we will have fallen into totally unchartered territory. It is without hyperbole that I say I am at times afraid of what may ensue.

I am at times afraid of what may ensue

I have told my Democrat friends–yes, I have many–that they are missing the simple fact that people are really scared today. The economy is nowhere close to recovering and, in some places, may be getting worse. Millions of people have been unemployed for a very long time and untold millions more live in fear of it. Spending, deficits and debt have grown beyond the hypothetical world of economists and into a realm that the average person understands. Against this, the Democrats are now steaming towards the greatest expansion in government ever and, more importantly, into the part of our lives that commands our deepest fears, our health and mortality. That they have done so in an openly corrupt manner, with side deals, special exemptions, special interest favors and patronage (a judgeship, really?), betrays a contempt for the legislative and political process that is almost unfathomable. Worse, they raise the specter that the government is an interest, separate, distinct and opposed to the people.

The Democrats cannot do this. Sure, they may get the votes to pass the Senate bill tonight, but ultimately they will be defeated. A representative democracy cannot long endure a political class that is so out of touch with the populace. In some respects, what happens tonight is almost beside the point. The politics are set. Some Democrats are deluding themselves that they can put this behind them and somehow survive in November. They are most assuredly wrong.

Whole thing here; Flynn's Reason archive here. Also see our writings on health care and the current attempts to reform it.

NEXT: Medicare Math: The Latest With Which to Discombobulate Your Mind, Wallet, Future

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. Just in case noone at H&R libeblogs, I found an Obamacare liveblog here:
    http://realclearpolitics.blogs…..-liveblog/

    1. I’ve been following RCP’s liveblog too. Still, I’m getting contradicting info on Stupak. I thought he had reached a deal but he told Fox he’s still a no.

      1. I had thought so as well. But am glad to know there is still hope our nation will survive.

        1. I feel like I have been in a war ever since January of last year. The presure I feel is that great. This is a big battle in that war.

      2. Stupak is having a press conference at 4PM. I hope this is not bad news.

        1. CSPAN just said that Stupak has agreed. Obama will issue an executive order to ban federal funding for abortion…

          1. Damn! How the fuck can he be that gullible! What about the other pro-life Democrats? Are they just as gullible or are they standing firm? Is there still hope?

            1. He was always voting Yes, just like Ben Nelson. This has all been a sham. He’s been bluffing all along, and now he has to show his cards.

            2. How can they be gullible?

              Ever heard of “hope and change”.

    2. Thanks, I’m getting whiplash trying to sort these comments out, and i think JOHN is on cocaine the way he’s posting today…LOL.

      Peace and love all you Mawnstars

      Celebrate by doing……

      1. No problem.

        Peace & Love,

        PIRS

    3. I’ve been following RCP’s liveblog too. Still, I’m getting contradicting info on Stupak. I thought he had reached a deal but he told Fox he’s still a no.Affilojetpack

  2. So true. People (anyone paying attention) are very scared and concerned about the future of this country. I’d say it’s time to start reconsidering who the real terrorists are. Pols have been holding citizens and the economy hostage, with a great deal of terror, for quite a while.

    You often hear pundits and pols telling people what the American people want: bipartisanship, job creation, blah, blah, blah. How about if Congress and King Obama just take a break for a couple of years? The only public mandate I would support is one in which the sheeple were forced to watch this nightmare unraveling on Capitol Hill.

  3. That was really well said.

  4. So Reason loses a talent like Flynn while retaining a hack like Bailey.

    Gotta go unfurl the “racist snake flag”

    1. I love that snake flag!

  5. (Of course, it could be that Soros has simply made very large, leveraged bets against the dollar and wants to maximize deficit-busting policies, but that is speculation for another day.)

    This is an outstanding plan. We have established that George Soros is a supervillain, correct?

    1. Nah, he just rolls with the punches and takes what they are foolish enough to give him.

    2. He did somehow walk away from the 97 Asian Crisis with a couple extra billion in his pocket.

      1. Don’t forget the Sterling crisis in ’92.

        1. Yes ? he made his first billion destroying the pound (now the British are intent on burying the corpse all by their lonesome)

  6. I dono,I think that a lot of people want this healthcare bill to pass, oddly enough. There are a lot of people who want nationalized medicine. However, i wish they all moved to a single state and tried it there, rather than foisting an atrocious bill on 300 million people, most of whom have no desire to see the bill passed, at least in its current form.

    FA Hayek spoke about how socialism inherently leads to divisive pluralism, but even he forgot to mention just how exacerbated the situation could get when such policies are foisted upon large populations. It’s no wonder that none of us can agree on a healthcare bill. Why don’t they want to understand this reality? Why don’t they try a decentralized program that would allow states to experiment with healthcare plans? This all or nothing politics foisted upon a large, intellectually diverse populace is a recipe for political disaster.

    If a government is going to act socialistically at all, it should only be on the local level.

    1. It’s already been tried in MA, and people are happy with it. Even more radical bills of a variety of flavors have been tried in every other civilized nation on earth – and are doing even better.

      We don’t need to wait or dawdle anymore. Indeed, we are decades beyond everyone else. Sorry guys, but you are going to lose this one….and we won’t be going back, ever.

      1. Their was a recent article on cnbc.com listing the ten unhappiest states in the union. Mass was on that list. Also, I’m pretty sure that if mass plan was all that successful, we would have heard more about it. I personally haven’t researched it, though. Anyway, my point was that not even liberals can agree on a healthcare bill, often times not even at the local level, so even a healthcare bill foisted on 300 million liberals would face opposition.

      2. One day in future, when you or someone you loves gets sick, and the government tells you No, you’ll look upon this day very differently.

        1. Prices are starting to rise just as fast in the countries with nationalized health care systems, and this bill is especially corporatist, so I think the bigger shocker will be the huge cost inflation that will now be inernationally huge. Also, people like me will be forced to pay the fines, because I will always avoid insurance if I can. I haven’t been to a doctor in almost a decade, and I think I’m fine without it. I’ll feel the pain immediately, and I have little money with which to absorb it. I’m not especially sickly, so I won’t feel any benefits of this legislation for years.

      3. The Mass state treasurer was on TV last night saying if it weren’t for billions of federal dollars, the state would have gone under because of the bill. He even went so far as to leave the blue team and run as an independent for governor. Sounds great, huh?

        1. And what they’ve done for MA, they’ll do for the US. Count on it.

      4. Happy? They’re seeing double-digit premium increases and no decrease in overall total spending. It’s a joke. Government expenditures are over projections already.

      5. It’s already been tried in MA, and people are happy with it.

        Which explains why the Kennedy family Senate seat is now held by a Republican who campaigned against Obamacare.

        Do you have a prescription for those stupid pills you take before going online?

        1. Chad must get the really good shit.

          1. He’s supposed to be a chemist of some kind. Probably makes his own.

      6. It’s already been tried in MA, and people are happy with it.

        And I am certain that people will be happy with Obamacare so long as it also will also get bailed out by- wait, what’s above the federal government to bail it out when its entitlements go catastrophically over budget?

        1. China

      7. Yeah, Massholes really have a sweet deal, don’t they? Europe is definitely more civilized than America, right?

      8. Sorry guys, but you are going to lose this one….and we won’t be going back, ever.

        Said like a true executioner.

        1. Yes ;p

          I’ll be back. LOL!

          Scrabble Cheat

  7. That is a great article. It’s not just health care either–Washington seems to be ignoring the will of the people on almost every major issue. No one I know supports staying in Iraq and Afghanistan, the auto bailouts, TARP, etc.

    1. Great. It’s about time we ignored the rabble and started making the structural changes that are necessary to prevent us from flying off the cliff.

      1. Like hurling Medicare toward bankruptcy even faster? That kind of structural change is like yanking out the support beam of a house.

      2. So you’re actually admitting that “the people” are simply getting in the way of some great technocratic dream? Trouble abrewin’

        Especially since it is those who want to make the structural changes who are running us off of the cliff. This is exactly the road to serfdom as Hayek described it.

        Basically, people who believe in planning will look at the failure of planning as a failure on the part of the people themselves. Sooner or later, fans of planning will demand a “strong leader” who can “ignore the rabble and make the necessary changes” even though it was the same promises and misdeeds of these technocrats and oligarchs that is running us off a cliff to begin with. You must live in a strange, scary fantasy world Chad. I never though that I would actually hear people beg for totalitarianism, but damn Chad, you showed me something new today.

      3. Things already flew off the cliff and all the new mandates and taxes will prolong the time it takes to pull ourselves back up.

        1. People. Whether that was the Chad troll trolling, or if that was someone trolling as ‘ironic’ Chad troll, it was still a troll. You really can’t take Great. It’s about time we ignored the rabble and started making the structural changes that are necessary to prevent us from flying off the cliff seriously as commentary supporting the likes of TARP and the Iraq invasion can you?

          1. No, but it will create the opportunity for much more atrocity in the future. It’s a bad attitude to have regardless.

      4. It’s about time we ignored the rabble and started making the structural changes that are necessary to prevent us from flying off the cliff.

        Weird, this is exactly the opposite of what you normally claim. You’re normally all in favor of having us fly off the cliff even faster.

      5. The rabble are the citizens, and deserve to be taken seriously. Who is “we” and “us”, Chad? Not “The Rabble”?

  8. At the top of Drudge Report is this unlinked text:

    “FLASH: Senate Republicans found a provision in the new House health care bill that likely makes it ineligible for expedited ‘reconciliation’ procedures in the Senate. Dems refused to meet with GOP and Parliamentarian…. Developing…. “

    1. If that’s the one I read, it’s about amending a law before it’s a law. Even a republican rules expert said there is nothing in the house rules that says they can’t. If the issue is about house rules only, and not a constitutional issue, SCOTUS will not get involved. It is up to the house to police it’s own rules. That’s why we are hearing, they can make it up as they go along. As long as it doesn’t run afoul of the Constituion, they can. Because who in the house will hold them responsible? It’s a seperation of powers issue.

  9. http://realclearpolitics.blogs…..-liveblog/

    3:34 — Apparently Stupak is having a press conference at 4pm. He’s announced this several times already, only to push it back. This one is described as “firm.” I’m assuming that means that a deal has been reached.

    Obie Wan Fetus Hugger, you are our only hope.

    1. Ironic, isn’t it? Libertarian hopes resting on an anti-abortion politician.

      1. Don’t get me started…

        Another reason we’re doomed. If it doesn’t pass it won’t be because government involvement in healthcare is a bad idea, it’s just the wrong kind of involvement.

  10. Hunker down. . .

  11. Worse, they raise the specter that the government is an interest, separate, distinct and opposed to the people.

    This specter will not be ‘raised’, it is an incontrovertible fact, and has been for longer than even I care to admit.

    This entire stimulus was the very direct evidence we needed for that. We have embarked on a single-minded mission to create or save jobs, almost exclusively in the public sector.

    We are doomed. We are doomed because when government can no longer sustain itself– or more specifically– when the ever-shrinking numbers of private citizens can no longer sustain government, government will merely turn its wrath and contempt upon those same private citizens through the legislative pen and the authority to tax.

  12. “Some Democrats are deluding themselves that they can put this behind them and somehow survive in November. They are most assuredly wrong.”

    Do I read this correctly? The argument is, “Vote your political career not what you think is right. Do what is expedient to hold your seat.” I can’t take arguments like that or the people who make them seriously.

    1. How about “vote the way your constituents want you to vote”, because you “Represent” them. Hence the term.

      What are you on about today?

      1. The fact that the arguments surrounding this bill, by people who should know better, is so inane.

        For example, I wouldn’t vote for Lindsey Graham for dog catcher but I think he has principles and I respect him. Same goes for Kucinich.

        To read the arguments here, it’s all about either politics or the end of the Republic and the commentors here are generally better than that. So, it’s bringing me down.

    2. I’m not sure I understand your point. They call these politicians ‘representatives’ for a reason. Sure, I’ve heard all the arguments about how the little people just couldn’t possibly understand the complexities of these issues, and we depend on our representatives to vote for what is right– even if it’s in direct contradistiction to what the voters want… but in the end… you vote against your constituents at your peril.

      1. Well, most constituents wanted their representatives to vote for the wars, too.

        The problem here is that they are neither representing their constituents nor doing the right thing.

    3. No, the argument is “listen to the damn voters”.

    4. I don’t see this as “vote for your career” – I think it is more “you are a representative of the people – vote the way they want you to”

    5. If Representatives weren’t supposed to think, why not just have government by plebiscite?

      Flynn’s argument isn’t “this bill is wrong because of X, Y, Z and your constituents are right to oppose it so you should listen to them” it’s “in order to be re-elected you should vote in a certain way”.

      1. Flynn did not say anything like that.

        1. That’s not what you said at 3:59.

          1. What? What I said was a restatement of Flynn’s argument. What you said was Flynn’s argument was, manifestly, not what the man said at all.

      2. If Representatives weren’t supposed to think, why not just have government by plebiscite?

        We’ve already achieved the first half of that statement, at this point, I’d be willing to live with the second half for a change.

  13. I agree, but I think that the point is that they are gambling their careers on something that won’t even satisfy their moralism. Most liberals wanted more, so many of them are giving up principal for the sake of party just by voting for the bill. I hope they think losing their seat is worth giving up their beliefs. Basically, they are getting the worst of both worlds.

    1. principle

  14. The Democrats cannot do this. Sure, they may get the votes to pass the Senate bill tonight, but ultimately they will be defeated.

    No, I’m pretty sure there’s no way it’ll be repealed if it passes. For an example of why I think this, look at every major entitlement ever enacted.

  15. I’m more for universal healthcare versus anything that is in this current failed abortion of a bill. I don’t think longterm effects of passage will be as detrimental to the world or democrats as some are led to believe. I don’t see that many people waking up to use a cliched phrase. The republicans will bitch for awhile longer, but are they the type of people you want to give a majority too. It’s a pickle, sure get rid of the fuckers who voted for it, but replacing them with the fuckers who are latching on to the creeps outside shouting freedom isn’t going to fix the situation.

    This bill is just another payoff to the insurance industry, the rest is just delayed dressing for us poor slobs without access to healthcare. Contrary to standard opinion, there are many on the left who have been disgusted with obama for quite some time, the rest are of a caliber like those who believe the Republicans stand for small govt. and free markets.

    Obama’s real crime is trying to write a healthcare reform bill that caters and goosesteps around the insurance industry. Mandates, cuts to medicare, staying on your folks insurance until 26, feeble provisions to deal with preexisting conditions, this bill just got more and more retarded. Obama is not a socialist, if he was, we would have seen a robust public option or a giant expansion of medicare/caid. That would have at least been a fop to getting healthcare off the back of employers, but oh well, team Obama and the vanguard against socialism can beat the crap out of each other for all i care.

    1. Are you that ignorant to not see Obama for what he is. His short biography goes like this. His dad left him to practice communism, then his mom left to learn more about communism. His grandparents took him to a communist church. He sought out lefty radicals to learn from. He attends an America hater’s church. He becomes a “community organizer”. He works hard with public unions to bleed the system for every dollar of taxpayer money they can get. He uses Saul Alinsky as a role model and enters the Chicago democrat machine. Doesn’t vote much once elected as a senator (don’t want voters to know much about his true agenda, you know). Tells everyone who will pay attention he wants to “redistribute wealth”. Starts doing it. Open your eyes moron.

      You are right though, he’s more a communist, socialism is just the bridge from freedom to his end.

      1. You should smoke pot more, or is that too much of a commie hippy thing to do? Yes, Obama is such a commie that he is going to force all of us to buy health insurance from those greedy corporate health care companies run by those figureheads of greed, health care company executives. The commie bastard.

        I think it’s you who has some waking up to do.

        1. The industry make about 2.2 to 3.4 cents on the dollar.

          In what free nation are you forced to buy anything?

          Go back to the collective and shut up.

          1. The mandate to buy health insurance!?!?!?!?!

            Did i miss something and that is no longer in the bill?

            Eitherway, the answer is the United States, but let me guess, you only think of it as more unfree since obama was elected, right?

            This bill is not socialism, pure and simple, you can stretch the meaning of socialism to include anything you want, but Obama and this bill are not socialist.

            1. The mandate is too weak to actually help insurers. They will leave the individual market as anyone who stays in will face unsupportable losses. This by design.

          2. The industry make about 2.2 to 3.4 cents on the dollar.

            That was when people could choose not to buy it.

        2. I’d smoke a lot more pot if the government would let me.

        3. I’d smoke a lot more pot if the government would let me.

        4. Are you just that terrified of having to do things for yourself? Do you need insurance to pay for therapy so your lack of self-confidence can be overcome?

          1. Dude, your going in a total different direction.

            I take care of myself, and those who are close to me in their time of need, in case you plan on bringing that strawman out too.

            1. 1. You severely underestimate my disdain big government of all kinds.

              2. Why should everyone be forced to buy healthcare? What if you don’t want it? What if you have different priorities? It may not be your decision, but don’t make it for others.

              3. I’m glad you take care of those close to you. That’s what decent people do.

              4. To deny this guy as a socialist is akin to burying your head in the sand. Everything he stands for involves a redistribution of wealth and adds government as the sole source of advocacy and enforcement.

              5. Under all the altruism is a cold reality that involves a debt that can not and will not be sustainable in any reasonable sense.

              6. You don’t find it odd that real, market based solutions were hurdled over to get this put in place? What’s the goal? Their own words will tell you a single payer government run system is the end of this.

              1. 1.) I’m crying on the outside, i really am.

                2.) I don’t think people should be forced to buy insurance. I don’t support the bill. I’m just not heralding this or Obama as the beginning of the totalitarian Apocalypse.

                3.) i said that because you were trotting out that standard no one wants to take care of themselves bullshit. I was hoping to head you off at the pass, i failed.

                4.)This guy is just the same as the guy we had last time. The redistribution of wealth will continue just as always from the bottom to the top. I’m not sure of what version you’re bitching about.

                5.) Debts that you cannot pay tend to go bye bye, as they should.

                6.) free market and leftist solutions were jumped over to please lobbiests and other special interests.

                1. 1. I’m sure.
                  2. Socialistic failure
                  3. Good effort. I’m not against charity, just the kind that is enforced with guns.
                  4. I’m bitching about a HUGE addition to the already ridiculous amount of redistribution.
                  5. See Greece. It’s real money and until it’s deemed worthless, we are in the hole.
                  6. definitely not the people that pay the taxes to drive this truck off the cliff.

                  Battery dead….

        5. You know, corporatism is a variety of socialism.

          Just because it wasn’t politically feasible for Obama to promote a total nationalized health industry, doesn’t mean its not on his mind.

          1. Don’t confuse him with facts. You are messing with his childhood. If you keep talking like this, it might dawn on him that Corprate states and socialist states are generally one in the same. And his little brain might not be able to take that kind of shock.

            1. John,

              It be nice to see a fact come out of your mouth once in awhile.

              Shock?

              As in The Shock Doctrine?

              1. Oh, a Naomi Klein zombie. I’m shocked.

                1. A one liner, how shocking. WHy not point to factual misdeed on her part.

                  1. How about the well documented lies about Milton Friedman in her book on this very site?

                    https://reason.com/archives/200…..n-friedman

                    You should really do a little background reading before claiming we don’t have facts to back up our claims.

            2. Did you read my post re standing on filing suit for forced purchase of govt insurance issue?

          2. You can say it, but that brand of socialism is pretty different from the type most are complaining about.

            I don’t have privy to what is on Obama’s mind, but if that is true then it only proves he’s a coward, and there has been ample of that already. (I’m not referring to foreign affairs)

            If it was important to him, and on his mind, he should have done more for it. This bill really isn’t related to the systems abroad that others quake and wobble at. It is still highly motivated to working for and with insurance companies. It props up that relationship.

        6. “Obama is such a commie that he is going to force all of us to buy health insurance from those greedy corporate health care companies run by those figureheads of greed, health care company executives.”

          Hmmm? You’re right. Communists are socialists who want to destroy corporations and private property. Socialists who want to control wealth and property, distribute it to favored interest, demagogue against groups that they don’t like and put favored companies in bed with a powerful statist government are called something else …

          1. Communists think the government should run everything.

            Socialists think the government should manipulate everything.

            Easy to see which one is more corruptible.

    2. This is a “payoff” to the insurance industry in the spirit of Lenin’s “sell us the rope with which we will hang them.” The bill is an unsustainable mishmash of mandates, subsidies, taxes, boards and panels. There’s simply no way it can work as “planned.” Insurance will cost more, jobs will be lost, tax revenues won’t meet expectations but spending will soar far beyond them. And as it fails, we will be told that only single-payer can save us. The politics of the USA wouldn’t allow a clean leap to single-payer, but Obama and Pelosi and the rest of the gang are knocking over the dominoes in that direction.

    3. Because shouting freedom is so … creepy.

  16. The real upheaval will come much later when the young people who don’t follow politics closely discover that have to pay for insurance (and pay a lot.)

    And when the poor realize that they’re really not getting free insurance, but instead a Medicaid card that no doctor will accept, they, too, will be angry.

    And just about the rest of population will get mad when they find the quality of their care diminished greatly, and rationed. And when it becomes much more expensive.

    The only people who will smile gleefully at this system are the limousine liberals who will never have to use it.

  17. If this damned thing actually becomes law there will be a revolution. That is no joke.

    1. Yeah, I’m not sure the Democrats truly realize what they’ve created here.

      The limpdicked Chads of the world can cavort around as if they’ve just “won” something, but they have no idea what sort of beast they’ve just awakened. You don’t steal people’s country, and heritage, and history, without a reckoning.

      1. I agree. I don’t think the Dems understand how angry people are.

        I am starting hear people all over–in public places–calling for armed revolution. While I don’t take them seriously, the fact that people feel comfortable enough to make such hostile and incendiary comments openly leaves cause for concern.

        The problem with the polls is that there’s nothing stronger than “Strongly Disagree.” If there was a “I’d like to shoot your housepets with a 12-gauge” it would be getting upwards of 30% right now.

        1. 30%? That’s horrifying. I didn’t think there were that many police, let alone that many on SWAT teams.

    2. It isn’t going to be pretty. And I think a few of the sentient ones on the Left are starting to realize that. Expect to hear a lot of “we never liked Obama or this bill either” like dumbass two posts up.

      1. Iron my shirt bitch!

        It’s thanks to tools like you that this country can be expected to travel down its destructive path for the foreseeable future. In your world, feel free to blame Clinton, or your new man, Obama, for every problem.

        1. I don’t blame Obama. I blame 40 years of a broken education system that produced millions of people like you.

          1. DUM DER DUM DER DUM

            OH NOES, I’m a product of a broken public education system. Teh propaganda it burns burns. Why don’t you say something intelligent for once instead of running around yelling team red shit. I’m sure it pleases the media and other purveyors of lost common denominator bullshit that their false words have worked so well on you.

            1. Millions of people are blythering idiot who still twenty years after the fall of communism think socialism is the answer. That is an educational and societal failure of the first order. Honestly though, I am not sure what kind of cure there is for stupid people. We are only as good as the people who make up our society. And when it includes the likes of you, we really don’t stand much of a chance.

              1. “Millions of people are blythering idiot who still twenty years after the fall of communism think socialism is the answer. That is an educational and societal failure of the first order.”

                My education most have been really poor cause i can’t edit that post, just another failure of the public education system i suppose.

                More emotional wanking, with a little tweaking, i could just switch socialism for capitalism and would be just as accurate as you, but i aim for better accuracy as well as intellectual honesty.

                1. You have no fucking argument. You are just pissed that we’re pissed, and I think that we have some very valid concerns. What a piece of shit, you’re coming off as, dude.

                  1. Especially once you start bitching about internet grammar and sentence structure, you’ve really shot your wad. I’m tired of listening to you, because your only argument is that we’re retarded for disagreeing with you, and all of our concerns are imaginary. Maybe death panels aren’t a real concern, but a government that has corporatist power over every aspect of medical care seems like a problem to me. There are at least a dozen major problems with this bill and there have been several attempts made to put a fresh coat of paint on this turd. It will only be passed due to some fancy politicking. But of course we’re just a bunch of deluded tea baggers.

                    1. And yes,socialism is corporatism. I can’t see how the two can be separated, as Hayek explained that the powers that because the government can’t do everything with just a handful of elected politicians, it must rely on technocratic “experts” and it must defer more and more activity to people outside of the directly elected representatives. Corruption will be inherent in any socialistic system, as majority agreement becomes more and more difficult as the government has to make more and more economic decisions, and pluralism will assuredly give rise to elitism. Consciously or subconsciously.

                    2. Hey, he insulted my education and used loads of bad grammar, i take the shots i choose.

                    3. You take the shots you can because you have nothing of substance to say. As they say “a good man knows his limiations” and worrying about typing errors is about the most that you can expect.

                    4. well you are at least

                  2. My argument is simple,

                    Obama and this bill are not commie pinko socialism.

                    Some are pissed, but that’s been a steady act where most of the players don’t seem quite a bit legit.

                    Your concerns seem to stem from, like omg obamastalindicktaker is going to destroy the country and teh world.

                    On the other hand, i feel that is totally retards i.e. we’re probably already there, and Obama is basically a tiny contributer/mainter at the wrong place wrong time. Not the instigator evil leftest originator of it all.

                    whew

                2. Yes because capitalism failed miserably in the 1980s. It also resulted in the creation of numerous nightmare totalitarian states that murdered millions. And as a result of all of that, the capitalist nations of the world had to build walls to keep people from escaping. And then in 1989, the whole thing fell.

                  Never has there been an intellectual system more damaging and more thoroughly discredited than socialism. It has failed and failed dangerously everywhere it has been tried. But sadly, it appeals to the vanity of the stupid. And that is a bet that it nearly always wins.

                  1. It appeals to the stupid’s greed for the unearned – the lust for something for nothing.

                    1. Smartass sob,

                      I don’t see it that way. I look around, and i don’t see that look on my neighbors, or anyones face that often. When i do, it’s from politicians and crony capitalists.

                      But if you’re talking about the general population, you’re wrong.

                    2. So Obama’s not a socialist, and you’re disappointed that he isn’t. You wish he was more of one.

                      Do you have anything to say in response to the reality that socialism has degenerated into horriffic economic basket case police states everywhere it has been tried?

                3. “More emotional wanking, with a little tweaking, i could just switch socialism for capitalism and would be just as accurate as you, but i aim for better accuracy as well as intellectual honesty.”

                  Well, except for the fact that capitalism hasn’t failed but socialism has. Other than that bit, you’re like 5% dead on!

        2. And it is too late. The Left owns Obama and he owns them. No amount of “we never liked him” will change that fact. He is going to discredit liberalism for generations. Enjoy your vote today. It is as good as it is ever going to get.

          1. How sad, the left has been wary of Obama since the first day. Many viewed him as just another procorporate democrat. BUt you choose to ignore anything that doesn’t mesh with your simple narrative, FYI, there was another antiwar rally the other day. A rally with more people than those who are protesting this healthcare bill right now.

            And to show how stupid you are, how the hell can Obama discredit liberalism more so than say Stalin did? Or maybe neither was a real leftist, maybe one was a dictator, and the other was just a pathetic politician. Maybe you should think about what Bush and others did to discredit Capitalism.

            1. “And to show how stupid you are, how the hell can Obama discredit liberalism more so than say Stalin did?”

              He really can’t. Stalin should have discredited liberalism and all its varients forever. Hell, the French Revolution should have done that. But as your existence shows, some people never learn.

            2. Bush also discredited socialism. He was also a socialist. You can’t separate corporatism from socialism. Even in the soviet union, the heads of various industries had tremendous clout, and because the ruling class had to depend on their expertise and infrastructure, they were able to accumulate “wealth” that would make many CEO’s green with envy.

            3. Forget the labels for a moment. Put aside “socialism” and “leftism” and “capitalism” and “Republican” and “Democrat.” They’re distracting. They narrow the mind too much.

              Here’s what is going on: A bunch of human beings live together on a piece of land. One group is about to use guns and cages to force the other group to (A) labor to take care of other humans’ bodies, and (B) labor to purchase a contract for care of their own.

              That is not what liberty is. It is immoral. It breaches the living arrangement agreed upon by the earlier people who lived together on the piece of land — and moreover, it does it by abusing the very administrative system they set up.

              Tyrants such as Chad and “oh no” are happily utilizing that system (democracy) to lay waste the living arrangment (individual liberty). They’re incapable of seeing the conflict inherent in that, or understanding why it’s wrong, and here’s the part where one of them chimes in with something about dead white guys or slavery or God knows what else. Fucking idiots and assholes.

              1. Tom @ 512

                WOw, you take quite a few leaps of logic as well as projection in so few sentences.

                How do you do it?

              2. If idiots like Tom were in charge, here is what would go on

                A) In an absurd effort to preserve his liberty to overpay for shitty health insurance, or to go uninsured and play the lottery, Tom would prohibit the construction of a much simpler, cheaper, fairer and more effective system.

                In the end, Tom falls into what I consider the ultimate libertarian folly: trading substantial and meaningful positive freedoms for obscure, abstract and trivial negative ones. Tom, in order to tame the cognitive dissonance in his mind, either claims such a trade cannot possibly exist (despite the evidence lying right in front of him), or claims that it never never ever could possibly be worth sacrificing any whee tiny bit of negative freedom ever no matter what the price, on principle.

            4. Exactly which “capitalist” policies did Bush support? Because I seem to remember a few entitlements coming out of that administration, including some in the medical and housing markets.

              Also, I’d like to add that I really don’t approve of the way the word “liberalism” is being used here. Democrats and socialists are not liberals.

              1. Bush is commonly used as free market policies run amok. True or not, that’s the label instead of the more accurate thugish crony capitalist. Another form of socialism i guess.

                Calling Obama and this bill socialist commie what have you does nothing

                1. Obama is commonly used as socialist policies run amok. True or not, that’s the label instead of the more accurate thugish crony socialist. Another form of capitalism i guess.

                  Calling Bush and his administration free market capitalist what have you does nothing

                  If you hate innacurate labeling, try not to justify it yourself.

          2. John, you’re still a moron as usual.

            1. Way to give a deep, detailed argument. You doing liberal thought proud today.

    3. When was the last time people staged a revolution over the introduction of a new entitlement?

      1. +1

        Except i don’t see it as the conventional type of entitlement.

      2. Catastrophic health insurance coverage — reversed after a mob revolt in the 80’s.

      3. Yeah, it won’t happen.

        I don’t expect anyone who’s claiming to leave the country if this gets passed to do so either.

    4. *waving the “racist snake flag”*

    5. Please spare us the hysterics.

    6. Well, how many laws that people think they will never be, has come without people never really speaking f. Media talk a little about it, and then 2 weeks later, all is forgotten… It will be the same thing here…

      Scrabble Cheat

  18. You know if they succeed in nationalizing health care, I wonder where the wealthy Canadians and Europeans or gonna go to get the treatment they would have to wait for, and may never receive in their home countries’ health care systems.

    1. Chile? India? I don’t know. I am learning Spanish so I might start visiting Chile myself.

      1. Mexico, Thailand, Singapore… There’s going to be a substantial increase in medical travel.

        -jcr

      2. Chile is really cool. I had several Chilean clients at one point ? the women are as hot as Brazilian women (in a “Catholic School Girl vs Neighborhood Slut kind of way). Country has been through enough shit with Pinochet to generally value liberty (as much as any Latin American country possibly could).

        Damn earthquake couldn’t have picked a less deserving place.

    2. You’re already seeing countries like Costa Rica offering medical tourism. Wouldn’t surprise me to see countries like China and India doing it on a large scale.

      Imagine — health care outsourcing.

      1. Chile for check-ups? Costa-Rica for routine blood work?

        Forgive me, but I just don’t see it.

        1. Routine check ups and lab work are not what’s breaking the system.

          1. They will be, when everyone is forced to purchase insurance coverage for them.

            Citation- breast exams.

        2. The AHA deal in this bill that has largely been ignored assures that medical tourism will be thriving business in the future. I have seen total bills for treatment and stay in Thailand cost 15 percent and less of what they cost here.

          1. try 40 to 70 percent lower.

            1. I believe you. I was talking about something I can confirm with my own eyes on the bills of that person. However, he stayed at the resort near where they filmed The Beach, so there were certainly touristy expenses to consider!

  19. What a fucking fruitcake Stupak is!

    1. No shit. All the die hard fund abortion at all costs people are voting for this thing. Does he honestly think they would be doing that if they thought it didn’t fund abortion? Does he really think that the President is playing them and not him for a fool? What a moron.

      1. He can claim he was lied to. Unfortunately the public has displayed a propensity to forgive politicians who claim they were lied to, even if they should have known they were being lied to.

      2. Executive order strenghtening the Hyde ammendment!!! He’s a fucking ra-tard.

      3. I wonder if Obama promised not to rescind his executive order two hours after making it.

        1. Obama doesn’t have to recend it. The law passed by Congress says that abortion will be funded. The President cannot rescend that funding via exectutive order. That is called impoundment and it was done away with by the 1974 budget act. The EO means nothing. NARAL will just sue. Any court in the country will order the funding of abortion. It is the most transparent fraud I have ever seen.

          1. I thought the Senate language just didn’t prohibit funding for abortion. I haven’t heard anyone say it actually mandates funding for abortion.

            1. But you can’t spend money unless Congress explicitly tells you you can. The Senate language has to specifically speak to abortion, or it wouldn’t have funded abortion in the first place.

              1. They don’t have to specify abortion, they can just authorize spending for medical services or whatever.

              2. “””The Senate language has to specifically speak to abortion, or it wouldn’t have funded abortion in the first place.”””

                I seriously doubt it. You don’t have to included all the procedures. It’s not like the bill must included the entire CPT code book.

                But the would have to be specific about the procedures it is not to cover.

  20. I wish the republicans werent so glee about this thing. They look at this as a chance to get back in power rather than something that should be defeated on its merits.

    Dems just want to say they passed healthcare reform. They dont care what the bill does just so they can say the did it. Anyone who really wants government healthcare would be against this.

    1. I am sure as hell not gleeful. Even if they do get back into power, that doesn’t make it a sure thing it will be fixed.

      But I will say this about the glee. A lot of libertarians were saying in the fall of 2008 that what needed to happen was the Democrats get unchecked power and go bizerk so that small government would come back. Well, looks like they got their wish.

      1. Clever libertarians have long known that divided government is the most reliable ally of liberty.

        See here.

        The part where libertarians were gullible is that some of them were fooled into taking Obama’s word that he was fiscally conservative, and not a socialist power-grabber. Personal judgment FAIL.

        1. You are 2 for 2 with comments that are dead on correct

      2. “”A lot of libertarians were saying in the fall of 2008 that what needed to happen was the Democrats get unchecked power and go bizerk so that small government would come back. Well, looks like they got their wish.”””

        Small government hasn’t made a comeback yet.

        1. Yeah, but there hasn’t been an election since the Democrats went berzerk. So, they still may be right. I sure hope so.

          1. The last Congress that favored small government was seated when? The 18th century? 1792?

            Any libertarian that thinks the dems bad behavior will actually produce a small government Congress is kidding themselves.

  21. “This is how the Dems ‘crack down’ on the insurance industry; by requiring everyone to buy its product?”

    That’s what we call DemoLogic

    1. Not to mention that they are going to lower the cost of health care by taxing medical devices. And lower the deficit by creating a new entitlement.

      1. They are not going to be able to lower costs. Prices rise, welcome to life. I guess I could bitch about the cost of what was once known as penny candy.

  22. “Unchartered” territory? Really, we can take a commercial, scheduled flight?

    1. “”””Unchartered” territory? Really, we can take a commercial, scheduled flight?””

      You have to book a three hour tour on the SS Minnow.

  23. Anyone watching FoxNews. Great discussion. A beatdown.

    1. FBN, I meant. Varney.

  24. 4:07 — Reached agreement with the White House. He is “pleased” to announce that there is an agreement. Doesn’t smile once.

    Obama: Okay, I’m done. Rahm, you’re up.

    Rahm: We didn’t want to have to do this to you, Stupak, but is the last minute and you have forced our hand.

    Stupak: What are you saying?

    Rahm: Take a look at these! Pictures I took last year while you were in the House recroom shower. Smelling your finger after it has been up your ass!

    Stupak: I was checking for discoloration, my doctor –

    Rahm: It doesn’t matter why, Stu! Leno wont care, Letterman wont care. All that will matter is you had your finger up your ass!

    Stupak: Is that all you have got?

    Rahm: Look me in the eye and tell me it isn’t enough. Better yet, don’t say anything just walk out that door if you think that this is ‘all you have got’.

    Stupak: Okay. You have my vote. Bastard.

    1. Stupak: B-b-b-b-b-bush made me do it!

      or

      Stupak: But Barney left half a fetus up there!

      An executive order to buy that shitbird’s vote. This a gd joke.

      1. Evicting that obnoxious, lisping fuck from the House would be a small consolation for the way he ass-fucked our nation.

      2. Me too. I’m not buying the idea he went for a transparent fraud like an executive order that legaly can’t take precedent over legislative language for one second. There had to be extenuating circumstances.

        1. It can’t. It is called an impoundment. Those are illegal. The President can’t refuse to spend money once the Congress appropriates it. It is like page 2 of fiscal law. Stupac and the whole lot of them know that. This is just a lie. This is just Stupac telling the American people to fuck off.

          1. Ah, so Reagan’s executive order (the socalled “Mexico City Policy”) forbidding funding of organizations that promote abortion overseas is unconstitutional?

            1. It would have been if there had been explicit language in the law that said abortion must be funded. It only had effect because there was play in the law. I think there is in the Senate bill.

  25. If i was from Michigan, the last thing i’d be worried about is abortion funding or lack there of.

    1. I would be worried about how regulation, unionism, taxes and spending turned the greatest industrial city in history into a wasteland. But I don’t think liberals want to talk about that either.

      1. That’s right John, give in to your anger give in to your hate.

        The darkside of the force calls.

        1. yes, don’t respond to the charge or the point. Just ignore what Detroit has become versus what it was in say 1950. And just ignore that Detroit was and continues to be one of the most heavily unionized and regulated places on earth.

          Just say something stupid. You are a liberal after all.

        2. So. No argument for why is wasn’t unionism which destroyed Detroit. Okay.

          Typical. Progressives don’t have serious arguments. They just take it for granted that everyone who isn’t them is self-evidently stupid. And therefore, becauset heir opponents are so stupid, they must be right.

          Insularity at it’s finest. Never bother to debate anyone seriously who disagrees with you and you end up like “Oh Nos”, at a complete loss to make one when it matters.

          1. Boeing and General Electric are thriving as US union shops.

            Could it have been the shitty management at GM?

            Nahh – had to be the workers, right?

            1. Shitty management at GM is relatively easy to change, but Wagner Act unionism and decades of labor contracts are not. So yes, it’s mostly the fault of the unions.

              1. Boeing and GE thrive with union labor.

                So you agree its not unions, per se?

                UPS does well too.

                By not answering I accept your agreement.

                One sick company does not indict all others.

                1. Boeing can do as well as it does because it serves the Pentagon or competes with entities even more hobbled by unions (e.g. Airbus). And I’d bet all of them would be doing even better without unions. Your argument is in essence “smoking is healthy, because these smokers aren’t sick yet.” Give unions enough time, and they will be (witness the Big Three).

                  1. UPS does well as a union shop because it is in a service business and faces competition from only FEDEX and the US Post Office. Well, a high school home ec class could run a business more profitably than the USPS, and UPS is doing so well under Unionization that it is trying to get the government to force the same union structure on FEDEX (otherwise they can’t compete).

                    Try getting your knowledge of US commerce and industry from more than 30 second commericals.

            2. Wow, that comment is so stupid that I almost want to think that you are trolling.

              Boeing is basically a government shop dependent on military funding. That a company can thrive when it is wedded to the government is not in the least surprising or proof of unions enabling companies to compete.

              GE is in miserably bad shape and would have gone under if the Fed hadn’t stepped in and saved its as by basically guaranteeing the commercial loan market. GE is trying to sell its appliances business, has taken a bath in the commercial loan market. The only thing it has left to hang its hat on is ? wait for it ? GREEN FUCKING JOBS! That is why they are sucking the Obama administrations d*ck ? so they can get contracts in energy grid control systems and windmill turbines. In other words, the only way they can make money is by grabbing on to the government teat.

              Try a better example.

              1. Or at least know a little bit about what you are posting about before you start typing.

                Embarrassing, really.

                1. He is a liberal. Facts and argument are just not something that is required.

            3. Let’s see, what’s Boeing’s competition? Airbus? The corporate-socialist European invention?

              GE and Boeing are both mainly huge defense contractors. They have guarenteed income from the government. So, you know, corporatism in it’s military-industrial complex finest.

              I wonder what would happen to Boeing and GE if they got cut off the government teat and had to deal with real competition.

  26. It’s amazing. I am flipping channels like I have the NFL ticket. Every fucking retarded Dem that comes on just repeats talking points. They’re like fucking robots: costs are rising (no shit), there is no death panel (ok), 45,000 people die a year becuase they haven’t health insurance (really?). Personality disorders.

    Pat Caddell is like a sniper picking apart every imbecile coming on Fox Business. Very entertaining!

    1. They don’t have anything else to say. Do Chad, Tony and Oh not this again (or whoever the fuck is pulling that troll act) ever have anything to say but talking points? They can’t defend this. So they just mouth the same thing over and over again like it will make a difference.

      1. I can’t tell a lie, It is I oh no not this or something.

        At what point in this thread did i say i support the bill?

        I’m not defending it.

        What are you talking about?

        1. Then do everyone a favor and shut the fuck up.

  27. When did Brant Gumbel change his name to Jesse Jackson Jr.?

    1. Bryant Gumbel that is.

  28. The only thing I regret about this bill is that all of those who made a name for themselves obstructing it — I’m looking at you Paul Ryan — are still going to enjoy the benefits after it’s passed. But universal health care rains on the good and the bad, I suppose.

    If ye love wealth better than health care, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of equality, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or votes. Crouch down and lick the special interests which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!

    1. Yeah like Congress people are so desparate for healthcare. Shut the fuck up you stupid troll.

      1. “Shut the fuck up you stupid troll.”

        Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

        By the way, John, you’re never going to accepted by the lumpenconservatives no matter how much you suck up to them and they’ll never see you as anything other than a druggie liberal who just happens to want a tax cut (I’m pointing that out since I’m assuming you claim to be a libertarian).

        1. I will never see you as anything other than a troll incapable of making a coherent argument or doing anything other than throwing out invective. Seriously, the adults are talking. Go back down with the KOS kids where you came from.

    2. Cuba’s only 90 miles south of Florida. You can borrow my inner tube and flippers.

      1. No thanks. Cuba is pretty anti-gay. It would be almost as bad as moving to Oklahoma.

        1. Oklahoma actually is very tolerent of gays and has a very large gay community. If you were such an insular hick, you might know something about the country. And if you think anywhere in the US is anything like living in Cuba, you are a immoral piece of shit who might as well be pissing on the graves of those murdered in Cuba.

    3. Guys, this fucker is a d-list troll. Don’t even bother.

      1. Considering this is a d-list blog, I wonder why any of us progressives bother.

        1. Why do you? It is not like you are smart enough to learn anything.

        2. d list troll on a d list blog.

          I suppose it could be worse, but why should you take the risk that it isn’t worse?

          1. When I go to a reputable place like Daily Kos, it’s no fun because we’re all basically in agreement, and there is so much traffic, due to the relative quality of the site, that my comment is old hat within 5 minutes.

            But here, there are so few people who frequent this place that you all have time to digest my words, and I yours (though I found a tapeworm segment yesterday).

            1. No you are troll. We have plenty of house liberals who say the same thing you say only better worded and less annoying. And if you honestly think the people on KOS are high quality thinkers, that says all we need to know about your intelligence. Now go away and stop trying to play with the big kids. Go back to KOS and people that are down on your inferior intellectual level.

            2. You haven’t said anything, you petulant progressive tard. Well, except the quintessential goto – “a republican done it too.”

            3. I don’t doubt you’re all in agreement. You are all a bunch of lemmings, incapable of independent thought.

              Off to the cliff, my friend.

        3. “animating contest of equality”

          What an incoherent pile of shit. You are spoiled by luxury, so spoiled you have no grasp of human nature and thus no grasp of human happiness.

          All it would take is for one quick hurricane to blow through and turn your town upside down to remind you of what you already know deep down: there is no “equality” among human beings, and its appearance is merely the ephemeral indulgence of a luxurious age.

          I’m looking around my little room right here, at the few little things I have managed to toil and acquire for myself, and I wonder how the fuck you got the idea that any of it is yours to take. It’s not. I don’t care how many guns and goons you’ve enlisted to manage your “progressivism,” Forrest — you can’t ever truly drag me down to being your equal.

    4. No you have to say, IRON MY SHIRT…lol

    5. Paul Ryan, like everyone else in Congress, already has great health care. In fact, his plan was to allow everyone to enter Congress’ plan.

      Of course, why should you let fact get in the way of your agitprop?

  29. what’s above the federal government to bail it out when its entitlements go catastrophically over budget?

    That would be the IMF.

    *laughs hysterically*

    1. Ask our friendly neighborhood banker, Mr. Wen Jia Bao

  30. I definitely picked the wrong day to quit licking toads.

  31. Another libertarian star, Paul Broun of GA, is claiming anyone who votes for this bill cannot ever call themselves pro-life again.

    1. He is right.

      1. The same Paul Broun who sponsored a bill to remove Playboy and Penthouse from US military bases.

        Yeah – he is a real champion of liberty.

        1. What a dick! He doesn’t want abortion but wants more military suicides and rapes. What an awesome thinker.

    2. God Bless Paul Broun

    3. “”Another libertarian star, Paul Broun of GA, is claiming anyone who votes for this bill cannot ever call themselves pro-life again.””

      And yet they will.

      I don’t believe you can be pro-life and pro-death penalty. They claim life is a god given right, yet some have no problem when government usurps that right when it deems it’s ok, for punishment purposes.

      1. There is no greater tribute to life than the taking of it from those who wantonly take it from others. But hey, that’s my opinion.

        But from your point of view, I don’t see how you can be pro-freedom and still support incarcerating people “when govt deems it’s OK for punishment purposes.”

    4. I don’t know if I’d call him libertarian. He’s the same dude that wanted to ban Playboy at army bases. In fact, I think he’s a pretty vanilla soc-con.

      But perhaps you’re being sarcastic.

  32. Please, pass this around before the violence erupts! This is the last step before the revolution begins. Please, pass it around! Let’s try and get millions of votes!!!!

    To: Congress, the House and the President

    Re: Taxes

    Sign this petition at:

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/irefusetopay/

    Over the past year, you’ve ignored the will of the people in many respects. You’ve pushed a monstrosity of a health care bill on us, which we’ve begged and pleaded you stop pushing. You’ve ignored the welfare and security of the people’s ability to find work and instead tossed them enough crumbs to get by through the intermittent passage of a UI bill that barely feeds a family of two, depending on where you live. You’ve pushed every possible anti-small business legislation in an order to crush the middle class and rich to help even out the dire needs of the poor. This is not America. This is class warfare, this is redistribution of wealth, this is tyranny and this is soon to be anarchy. In order to prevent anarchy, in order to prevent the violence and uprisings which we all feel are on the brink of happening, WE THE PEOPLE would like to present you with an alternative. The outcome of this alternative would end up keeping the peace, something we all want, something that is necessary to a civil society. This alternative would also help CONTROL the fanatical and power hungry desires of an out of control government. What is the alternative? Paying taxes. Or not paying taxes!

    The government needs OUR tax revenue for the overall general welfare of the country, which includes the upkeep of America’s infrastructure as well as the funding of our military, something we can all agree brings every man, woman and child protection. The problem that we all understand is that once this health care bill/education passes, among other anti-business bills such as cap and trade, the unionization of all businesses and other atrocious anti-business bills, NO AMOUNT of tax revenue will be enough to feed this out of control beast riddled with social program after social program. Just as Medicare costs were thought to be in the millions when the program first surfaced in the 60’s, in only a few short years we learned that the costs were potentially back bone breaking and today we have somewhere between 50 to 100 trillion in unfunded Medicare and social security liabilities. If it weren’t for the full faith and backing of the Chinese, Japanese and other countries who buy our treasuries and if weren’t for the productivity of the US worker whose pay check the government receives FICA taxes from, we’d had found ourselves in third world economic status in no time. But now that the government is taking away our economic freedoms, our ability to push this country forward without being swamped by social programs that tax us to death, now that the country is on the verge of losing its triple A bond rating, the possibility that those countries stop funding our liabilities is great. The fact that the US economy will be burdened by these bills and thus slow even more is no secret. And these problems equate to the death of the United States. It also means that no amount of tax revenue will keep our head above water and paying even a dollar in taxes will be a dollar wasted.

    So we come to you with this idea. Should you pass health care, should you continue to destroy the economic freedoms this country has enjoyed for two hundred plus years, we will not pay our taxes. If you think that you can control millions and millions of Americans through the IRS, then you’re sadly mistaken. Your IRS agents will be swamped with a convoluted mess of never ending paperwork, case loads and aggravation which means the revenue to the US government, which is drastically dropping due to the recession we’re in, will continue to drop and drop and drop. And let me assure you that soon enough, the US government won’t even have enough tax revenue to put gas in Air Force One.

    So we now present you with two options. The first, continue pushing through your despotic nonsense and chance losing the tax revenue of millions and millions of tax paying citizens. The second, come back to the center and start governing how WE THE PEOPLE want you to govern. I can assure you that should you choose the latter, the country will continue as it has for the past couple of hundred years but should you choose the former, you’re essentially risking civil unrest throughout the country, your political careers and potentially the life of this country. So I leave you with this? The choice is yours?. Choose wisely.

    Truly and Sincerely,

    The People of the United States

    If you would like to sign but don’t want to sign your own name, then sign “Susan B. Anthony” or “John Adams”. If an email is asked for, use ‘dontpaytaxes@live.com’ or any other fake email. The point is to get as many signatures as possible. Thank you for your political patronage AND please, pass this around to anyone you think would be interested in signing it. Thank you!

    Sign this petition at:

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/irefusetopay/

  33. TrickyVic|3.21.10 @ 4:38PM|#

    Yeah, it won’t happen.

    I don’t expect anyone who’s claiming to leave the country if this gets passed to do so either.

    The reason this time is different — the next president of these United States will run on reversing Obamacare. Three years of tax increases before ‘benefits’ go into effect. College hippies who typically vote for the (counter)progressive being drafted into paying for it (more likely there parents which means less money for weed and condoms, Schlitz beer, and organic pizza). The hand of hospital conglomerates strengthened to prevent regional competition. It ain’t going to get any more popular from this point out. Democrats have hung their necks in the rope a dope of utter stupidity to support this shit.

    1. I agree. There is the Mark Steyn view that this law will change everything. And that it will gradually over a period of years rob the entire country of its vitality and intelligence and turn us into a nation of Tonys and Chads. I don’t believe that. If I did, I would go kill myself right now. I think there is going to be some really ugly things that happen as a result of this. The US is not the UK. They will not quietly let this happen.

      1. From a person who grew up in the United Kingdom, let me tell you–Mark Steyn is completely correct.

        The problem is that the incentive structure is so powerful that everyone ends up being like the raccoon that can’t let go of the shiny object, even if it means their certain death. When everyone is deadlocked for a political war for benefits, there is no incentive for any group to let go of their benefits first. If any politician tried to remove all benefits simultaneously, they would immediately lose.

        We will fail exactly the way they did. Guys, I think you’re really giving far too much credit to America.

        1. We will see. We have lots of people like Forrest who are already gone. But, I can remember when people said that New York would never be livable. There was a time when people believed that crime could not be stopped. And that all cities were destined to get worse and worse. And amazingly enough, it didn’t happen that way. They actually made cities livable again in the 1990s. I can also remember a time when people thought welfare was untouchable. And it wasn’t. Reality has a way of enforcing itself on people. And in reality, we can’t pay for everyone to have these benefits. Our current system cannot go on forever. Eventually the government will just go bankrupt and we won’t have anymore benefits to fight over. That is what is happening in Greece right now. This is the beginging of the end of this kind of stuff.

          1. Sure maybe.

            But the Romans went broke more than 1500 years before our present day Greece.

            I seem to recall a long period of hell between the end of the Romans, and the resurrection of anything I’d call real civilization.

            Of there are anarchist types around here who probably think that time in history was something great. But I wouldn’t volunteer to live in it.

    2. “””The reason this time is different — the next president of these United States will run on reversing Obamacare.””

      I seriously doubt it. The next President will run on fixing Obamacare, not reversing it.

      But that doesn’t address the my point. I’ve heard people talking about moving if X passes. It does and they never move. Everytime it’s just talk, and that’s all it is now.

      Forget about revolution. The surveilance state and anti-terrorism laws have that covered. It would have to be mega huge. With all the man power the southern states had, they didn’t win the civil war. We will not see a civil war over health care.

      1. Any candidate that comes along and says that he is going to ‘fix’ Obamacare is going to sound weak kneed and he will get no where in the climate of 2012. The ones that say they will take the bill out back and shoot it will be the more viable ones.

        But that doesn’t address the my point. I’ve heard people talking about moving if X passes. It does and they never move. Everytime it’s just talk, and that’s all it is now.

        That doesn’t address my point. I don’t know those people, and I can’t speak for them either.

        Forget about revolution. The surveilance state and anti-terrorism laws have that covered.

        No one here is talking revolution. We are talking about an election year onslaught that will feel to the democrats like a revolution.

        1. “”I don’t know those people, and I can’t speak for them either.”””

          Same here, all I can do if see if they keep their word.

          “””The ones that say they will take the bill out back and shoot it will be the more viable ones.”””

          Even the republicans want to fix health care. They just don’t like the dems bill. Candidates on both sides will run on making fixes to the bad legislation, if it passes.

          As someone pointed out before, when has any major entitlments plan been repealed? Hell even the republicans didn’t want to end social security, they just wanted to privatize it.

  34. Please, pass this around before the violence erupts! This is the last step before the revolution begins. Please, pass it around! Let’s try and get millions of votes!!!!

    To: Congress, the House and the President

    Re: Taxes

    Sign this petition at:

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/irefusetopay/

    Over the past year, you’ve ignored the will of the people in many respects. You’ve pushed a monstrosity of a health care bill on us, which we’ve begged and pleaded you stop pushing. You’ve ignored the welfare and security of the people’s ability to find work and instead tossed them enough crumbs to get by through the intermittent passage of a UI bill that barely feeds a family of two, depending on where you live. You’ve pushed every possible anti-small business legislation in an order to crush the middle class and rich to help even out the dire needs of the poor. This is not America. This is class warfare, this is redistribution of wealth, this is tyranny and this is soon to be anarchy. In order to prevent anarchy, in order to prevent the violence and uprisings which we all feel are on the brink of happening, WE THE PEOPLE would like to present you with an alternative. The outcome of this alternative would end up keeping the peace, something we all want, something that is necessary to a civil society. This alternative would also help CONTROL the fanatical and power hungry desires of an out of control government. What is the alternative? Paying taxes. Or not paying taxes!

    The government needs OUR tax revenue for the overall general welfare of the country, which includes the upkeep of America’s infrastructure as well as the funding of our military, something we can all agree brings every man, woman and child protection. The problem that we all understand is that once this health care bill/education passes, among other anti-business bills such as cap and trade, the unionization of all businesses and other atrocious anti-business bills, NO AMOUNT of tax revenue will be enough to feed this out of control beast riddled with social program after social program. Just as Medicare costs were thought to be in the millions when the program first surfaced in the 60’s, in only a few short years we learned that the costs were potentially back bone breaking and today we have somewhere between 50 to 100 trillion in unfunded Medicare and social security liabilities. If it weren’t for the full faith and backing of the Chinese, Japanese and other countries who buy our treasuries and if weren’t for the productivity of the US worker whose pay check the government receives FICA taxes from, we’d had found ourselves in third world economic status in no time. But now that the government is taking away our economic freedoms, our ability to push this country forward without being swamped by social programs that tax us to death, now that the country is on the verge of losing its triple A bond rating, the possibility that those countries stop funding our liabilities is great. The fact that the US economy will be burdened by these bills and thus slow even more is no secret. And these problems equate to the death of the United States. It also means that no amount of tax revenue will keep our head above water and paying even a dollar in taxes will be a dollar wasted.

    So we come to you with this idea. Should you pass health care, should you continue to destroy the economic freedoms this country has enjoyed for two hundred plus years, we will not pay our taxes. If you think that you can control millions and millions of Americans through the IRS, then you’re sadly mistaken. Your IRS agents will be swamped with a convoluted mess of never ending paperwork, case loads and aggravation which means the revenue to the US government, which is drastically dropping due to the recession we’re in, will continue to drop and drop and drop. And let me assure you that soon enough, the US government won’t even have enough tax revenue to put gas in Air Force One.

    So we now present you with two options. The first, continue pushing through your despotic nonsense and chance losing the tax revenue of millions and millions of tax paying citizens. The second, come back to the center and start governing how WE THE PEOPLE want you to govern. I can assure you that should you choose the latter, the country will continue as it has for the past couple of hundred years but should you choose the former, you’re essentially risking civil unrest throughout the country, your political careers and potentially the life of this country. So I leave you with this? The choice is yours?. Choose wisely.

    Truly and Sincerely,

    The People of the United States

    If you would like to sign but don’t want to sign your own name, then sign “Susan B. Anthony” or “John Adams”. If an email is asked for, use ‘dontpaytaxes@live.com’ or any other fake email. The point is to get as many signatures as possible. Thank you for your political patronage AND please, pass this around to anyone you think would be interested in signing it. Thank you!

    Sign this petition at:

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/irefusetopay/

  35. Rep Lungren of CA pulls the Thomas More quote against Richard Rich from Man For All Seasons out on Stupak et al.

    1. Great movie, great speech.

  36. The Democrats have truly become the communist traitor party.

    So let them be known as such from this day forward.

    1. I’ve said that’s what they are for years and people called me some kind of intolerant idiot.

      Most especially people around here.

      The only thing this has taught me so far, is that in general I should trust my gut instincts maybe more than I do.

      In the end there is no real difference between a “socialist” and “communist”. And “progressives” are most definitely socialists.

      There’s still a slice of the Democratic party of old, made up of Johnson era types who just want to throw up a safety net for the poor. But they’re not socialists in the final analysis.

      Unfortunately, the progressives are the larger half of today’s Democratic party.

      1. Yeah well that “slice” has lost any form of ball or ovary necessary to say “no” to this thing.

  37. When the lawsuits over the constitutionality of this enactments are filed, they ultimately will be decided by the United States Supreme Court. You remember, the people Obama and the Democrats publicly humiliated at the State of the Union Speech?

    Revenge is sweet….

    1. Good point.

    2. We’ve already had one Democrat president try to pack the Supreme Court.

      Don’t be surprised if Obama and the Dems try it again.

      They have the mentality of banana republic dictators. There isn’t anything that they won’t try.

      1. Dude, that’s so last administration.

    3. Interesting thought, but I doubt the left wing of the court is willing to sacrifice their principles for pique.

      1. Obama was only calling into question the competence of the right wing of the court.

        1. That “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press …” is just so nuanced. Reasonable Dishonest people who don’t understand what “congress” “no law” “freedom” “speech” and “press” mean can interpret it differently.

        2. You mean the 5-person majority on Citizens United?

    4. 1- SCOTUS eliminates mandate requirement
      2- Regulations remain intact on the Health Insurance monopoly (no denial or recission, no PEC discrimination, no lifetime cap)
      3- Everyone wins

      I know – Lpers would prefer the insurance industry run roughshod over consumers with anti-trust exemption for purity purposes.

      Well, fuck them if they demand a monopoly.

      1. if you’re right, only chumps and sick people will buy health insurance. why pay before you need it when you can repent on your sickbed? I wonder how much premiums would be for a pool of only sick & stupid people?

        1. No one thinks a SCOTUS comprised of Scalito, Roberts, et al will rule against corporate interests.

          Those rogue states have no chance.

          1. Problem is, and has been since the post FDR court packing threat, the unbelievably expansive interpretation of the interstate commerce clause. I’d think that its the leftists on the court that push that expansive line of thinking , its what has lead to the fed govt with its nose in everything you do (often of even the most local nature), and a bloated federal budget needed to do it…Scalia, ROberts, et al have no love for corporate interests, they are just originalists. Its the statists on the court that have enabled abominations like federalizing health care…

      2. “”1- SCOTUS eliminates mandate requirement””

        Dream on. I’m still waiting for them to eliminate my mandated government retirement plan.

      3. 4 – Insurance industry, only slightly profitable to begin with, completely fails as claims vastly exceed premiums.
        5 – Single payer proposed as solution, not enacted because Republicans are back in power and can easily blame 4 on the Democrats and government intervention for political points.
        6 – As long as the young and the middle class aren’t getting care except what they pay for out of pocket, they decide that they can cut Medicare and Medicaid without it being unfair.
        7 – Old and poor people, unable to get even basic care, die in droves. Young and middle class people, unable to get catastrophic care, see a noticeable drop in lifespan.

        1. Touching nose, pointing and saying “you are correct sir”

  38. It’s definitely passing.

    1. I kind of figured it would; there’s no way they would have gone this far this hard if they couldn’t get it done.

      The Dems are going to get slaughtered in November. My god.

      1. Maybe, maybe not. My prediction is those at risk of losing will resign and let someone else be the dem to beat. They will consider their resignation honorable to the cause.
        The new dem will run on fixing broken Obamacare. They can act like they were not for it as it passed and must be fixed. That will ring with some voters.

        It’s a risky bet, but I’m not too sure the America public won’t fall for it.

        1. That is part of their plan I think. The shit bag from my brother’s district in suburban Kansas City is retiring after voting for this. But the problem is that their leadership owns this bill. It is pretty hard to say “vote for me and don’t worry about the fact that doing so will keep Nancy Pelosi as speaker.”

          1. This, and also the stunt-Dem is not going to have any of the advantages of incumbency. And remember we’re talking about conservative to moderate districts anyway, so the odds are going to be against them.

          2. I think it is part of their plan too. I don’t think Pelosi will be in the next election. IMO, she wants to be known as the fist woman speaker of the house that led the way to historic medical care reform. I really do believe she’s doing it for the history, not for the people of her district, and she’s willing to make the sacrafice.

            1. That bitch will still be there in November. After that she is done. But she will be there in November.

              1. If so, it will be because she has the poll numbers to support a run.

  39. I was looking at the channel guide to see what was coming on at 6:00 pm. I noticed “Witness to Jonestown” was listed on MSNBC. Huh, that’s intersting. Other channels were following some crazy shit happening on Capitol Hill. So, I switched over. There was a hip, thin black fella mixing a batch of fool-aid with one hand, signing an executive order with the other, with a cig hanging out of the corner of his mouth. Sure enough, Jonestown.

  40. You guys are right, I probably should take off. When my grandchildren are asking me where I was when Congress passed the universal health care bill that saved America, I don’t want to have to tell them, “I was sitting at home typing on a libertarian blog arguing with a bunch of people who thought kids with spina bifida needed to find a private insurer to pay their medical bills.” Then they’ll ask me what a libertarian was, and I’ll have to destroy their innocence by telling them that at one time, there was a political philosophy entirely based in not caring about other people.

    I also don’t want to have to lie, so toodle-ooo.

    1. This is the way libertarians and tea-baggers will be remembered in the history books.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ik4f1dRbP8

      I almost feel sorry for you guys. How can you not feel sick when you see stuff like this? Seriously.

      1. Why don’t get sick is because we believe everyone is responsible for their own actions.

        I have no more control or responsibility for those yahoos than I have for the housefly swarming outside my window.

        1. If you feed the trolls, you are responsible for the hate they regurgitate.

      2. Seconded.

        But should the future turn out to be the realization of your wildest fantasies, Chad, I’d be proud to be remembered along with Rand, Rothbard and Friedman as one of history’s greatest monsters.

      3. How’s Greece Chad?

      4. What, you say that there has been bad behavior at a Tea Party rally?? What a shame, compared to the pure record of polite conduct and non-violence at every left-wing rally of the last 40 years!

        1. Please find me a video of the worst behavior by a liberal at a rally you can find. You damned well know that you can’t even come close to the absolute vileness of what your fellow libertarians showed yesterday.

          Worse yet, you agree with them, don’t you?

          1. I don’t have video, but at an anti-Iraq-war rally in San Francisco in 1991 (IIRC) that blocked the Bay Bridge, one “leader” tried to whip the crowd into killing the police officers present. Luckily the crowd did not take the bait.

            Plus, of course, all the arson and broken windows that regularly accompany “peace” and “anti-globalization” rallies. A year ago there were protests in Oakland when the scumbag Lovelle Mixon killed four policemen: the protesters hailed him as a hero. How many examples do you need? Just Google “violent protest” and try to find right-wingers or libertarians being violent. You’ll have a tough time, because (in the US at least) it’s lefties committing 99.99% of the violence.

          2. Are you kidding me? What about the SEIU thugs beating people up at town hall meetings?

            1. Two words: Tim McVeigh.

              I am pretty sure he beat every liberal protest combined in one fell swoop.

              I am not talking about idiots who snap and commit violence. I am talking about the thoughts and sentiments being demonstrated. These two men managed to top the crackpots who protest at the funerals for fallen soldiers for the most disgusting human beings I have ever seen.

              Worse yet (and I want to emphasize this), you AGREE with what they said, don’t you? Your only concern with their behavior is that when you are that forthright with your views, it makes you look as vile as your thoughts really are.

            2. Two words: Tim McVeigh.

              I am pretty sure he beat every liberal protest combined in one fell swoop.

              I am not talking about idiots who snap and commit violence. I am talking about the thoughts and sentiments being demonstrated. These two men managed to top the crackpots who protest at the funerals for fallen soldiers for the most disgusting human beings I have ever seen.

              Worse yet (and I want to emphasize this), you AGREE with what they said, don’t you? Your only concern with their behavior is that when you are that forthright with your views, it makes you look as vile as your thoughts really are.

      5. Doubtful. No one will make recording accurate history a priority once the US government fails and we return to a state of brutal anarchy and interstate warfare.

      6. Right, Chad, all libertarians (or all people who are critical of Obama and/or his health care plans, for that matter) are also racist teabaggers.

        I guess a faux progressive like yourself also hasn’t bothered to notice that Obamacare isn’t even real single payer and is a giveaway to health insurance companies. Or perhaps you do and don’t care because it’s good to you as just as long as it’s Democrats passing it.

        1. Ummm, these guys were not expressing any racism….they were expressing pure and unadulterated libertarianism.

          Do you think I do not realize that the bill we just passed is not single-payer (as it should be)?

        2. Ummm, these guys were not expressing any racism….they were expressing pure and unadulterated libertarianism.

          Do you think I do not realize that the bill we just passed is not single-payer (as it should be)?

      7. Choad,

        Fuck that guy. What does he need insurance against his parkinsons for? He already knows he has parkinsons, the treatment costs should be pretty predictable. If its too expensive, he ought to be protesting the government market control that makes treatments more expensive for common diseases.

        Parkinsons treatments aren’t highly effective anyway. Does this guy have a better chance of treatment here, or in rationed Europe?

    2. You will have to explain to your grand children why their currency is worthless and their country went bankrupt. IF you are lucky they will give you a quick death at the local government run assisted suicide center.

    3. when one of your grandkids is born with spina bifida just before the chinese create a vaccine, you can explain to him how america had once been the seat of great medical innovation, but you wanted free genital wart removal & boner pills.

      1. WRONG. Something so pure and good as universal healthcare can’t possibly generate negative consequences.

      2. LoL! Have you not seen big pharma outsourcing everything it can to China and India for the last decade?

        Pay attention, you nitwit.

    4. Granddaddy Forrest, why is our country so poor?

      Because we were foolish and spent all our money, and all your money too, chasing foolish utopian dreams.

    5. What makes spina bifida a good reason not to pay for your own health costs?

    6. You tell your grandchildren (in Chinese, of course) that you were fingercockin’ yourself with a glazed over retarded look on your face while reading the delusional comments on the Daily Kos and HuffPo. Tell your little entitled serfs that libertarians tried to save them from living in tents, but Grampa Forrest had his head up President Bubba’s ass, his best good friend.

      What is it that you and your ilk don’t understand about liberty and freedom? You tell your grandswine that the country use to have distinct, different geographical regions, known as states, where if you were retarded, you could go live in certain states and get ‘free’ health care like MA.

      See how that works? That state thing? You want bankruptcy, ‘free’ shit, and serfdom in your state – no problem. Just don’t try and impose that shit on others.

      1. If Americans are so deprived of liberty and freedom then why does the LP register 2% consistently?

        And don’t bullshit me with the other Grand Old Statist Party nonsense. I lived through the Bush years.

        1. Apparently you haven’t lived through the last 1 year though.

          Tell me, on what civil liberties issue has Obama not actually expanded the horrors of Bush?

          1. You evaded my question about the paucity of reception of the Libertarian Party.

            And I have plenty to say about Bush but find my original question more interesting than another Bush critique.

            1. The paucity of reception of the LP is purely due to a game-theory issue about 3rd parties in the American political system. It is practical, not ideological.

              It has very little to do with the association of beliefs along the lines of party principles.

              1. Ahh, a libertarian that sort of understands game theory.

                How about you start thinking about how game theory pervades and perverts markets? It would be a good exercise for you.

                1. Um…. any game-theory regarding markets operates equally true when the public sector is involved in providing or subsidizing goods in that market instead of protecting property. In fact, it’s worse because one of the players can operate at a loss, destroying and consolidating competition into fewer, more powerful players.

                  Also, any potential gaming of the system on behalf of the private sector can only coexist absent rigorous competition. Public healthcare has been shown again and again to restrict the competition by creating artificial barriers to entry (mandatory coverage, licensing schemes, etc.) that force the industry in the direction of well-capitalized oligopolies. This is what we have now.

                  So, if this was actually true competition, you might have a point. This would be a voucher system where there is individual purchasing along the lines of Singapore’s system. However, seeing as the system passed today basically just shovels money at existing insurers in the form of a socialized healthcare payment plan instead of actual insurance, this will only encourage the big players to game the system.

                  Unfortunately for you and your inane pseudo-intellectual crap, it’s the Republicans that are aligned with the historically useful voucher system and the Democrats’ plans that don’t even allow interstate competition and resemble the nightmarish NHS system of Britain. (And if you think that that system is actually better than ours, you are frighteningly sheltered).

                  There are two ways to have open, conformant access to healthcare–only one player, or many players, because open standards become necessary.

                  What liberals should really be asking themselves is if they want a Ma-Bell model of healthcare or a internet model of healthcare. (Our mixed-model system is perhaps worse than both in some respects). There has to be an enormous double-take for them to support one of these types of systems in one context and not in another.

                  1. You hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph: we will NEVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER NEVER have some Libertopian-wet-dream health care system, so get over it and quit wasting my time arguing about whether your pie-in-the-sky fantasy would work or not.

                    Here in reality, we will either have Ma Bell with all her warts, or the hybrid monstrosity we have now. The choice is obvious.

                    You dodged my concern about game theory. Be specific and point out some cases where markets are influenced by game theory, and why you believe this is not a problem. Also, since you made the claim, please explain how these particular games are matched by an analogous game theory problem if the government were to attempt to solve the problem. I really don’t see this. For example, the entire “adverse selection” problem which FUBAR’s the individual health insurance market is a game theory problem. The government of every other industrialized nation has circumvented this by insuring everyone all the time, which solves the problem completely.

                    1. Be specific and point out some cases where markets are influenced by game theory, and why you believe this is not a problem.

                      Every single market transaction is a prisoner’s dilemma. Each side could cheat by selling a bad product or not paying the bill, thereby “defecting” and collecting the reward. Yet they don’t. This is predicted by the iterated prisoner’s dilemma, where it’s been shown people will learn to spontaneously cooperate with others when the game is repeated (Axelrod, The Evolution of Cooperation), often even in one-shot games.

                      The one-shot PD demonstrates that there are certain instances where perfectly rational optimizating agents will acheive a Nash equilibrium that is Pareto subobtimal. In practice however, this is not what happens. People seem to have “irrational” behaviors that have evolved specifically to overcome such situations. We’re not homo-economics, and that makes us better economic actors. We’ve evolved to default to “nice, cooperative, retaliatory” strategies of the kind that are best able to maintain a society of stable cooperators. And all that without the aid of a commanding God (or central government) to make us that way.

                    2. For example, the entire “adverse selection” problem which FUBAR’s the individual health insurance market is a game theory problem.

                      A) Adverse selection in today’s market largely occurs because state governments force insurance companies to charge high risk individuals less than their expected cost. It is a problem of price controls. The government has (effectively) capped insurance rates for high-risk individuals at below cost, thereby causeing a shortage.

                      B) Absent such constraints, the adverse selection problem is the same type of market transaction which is modelled by a prisoner’s dilemma everywhere else. Yes, each side has an *incentive* to cheat. The insurance company has an incentive to drop the high-risk person after he’s paid in for years and gets sick. (The sick person also has an incentive to lie to the insurance company.) Yet, just like the butcher ordinarily won’t sell you rotten meat without a government agent looking over his shoulder, competitive self-interest prevents insurance companies from reneging on legitimate insurance contracts. In a free market, people can choose not to buy from those companies, and they know it.

                    3. Hazel Meade|3.22.10 @ 1:13AM|#

                      Every single market transaction is a prisoner’s dilemma. Each side could cheat by selling a bad product or not paying the bill, thereby “defecting” and collecting the reward. Yet they don’t

                      Wow. Just Wow.

                      What reality do you live, Hazel?

                      You are simply pretending the consequences don’t exist, even though you admit it does in *every transaction*, which is true. Apparently, you have never hired a contractor or mechanic, for example.

                      A) Adverse selection in today’s market largely occurs because state governments force insurance companies to charge high risk individuals less than their expected cost

                      *facepalm*

                      Yes, if we could only charge those cancer patients $200,000 a year, there would be no problem at all.

                      WTF do you think we buy insurance for, Hazel?

                      *facepalm* x 1000

                      And no, we are never going to have your Rube Goldberg insurance that pays out lump sums every time you get sick, and no, it wouldn’t work anyway because diagnoses would then become a lottery.

                    4. If the patient already had insurance, the contract should be obligated to cover it. Unless the patient broke the contract somehow, in which case fuck them.

                      Rube Goldberg, you fucking cunt? How could insurance like that be any simpler? What the fuck do you think insurance is for, if it doesn’t pay out when you get really fucked up?

                    5. Oh, let me clarify. 99% of the time people don’t cheat. But even in the IPD, you never reach 100% cooperation.
                      But you DO get stable cooperative systems that are largely self-regulating and have internal defense mechanisms against defectors WITHOUT a central government to police them.

                      The fact is that in the market, the vast majority of transactions don’t require explicit enforcement. People simply have no interest in pissing off local grocers, and more importantly, most people are psychologically inclined not to, regardless of whether they will ever meet the same person again. Of course this *does* break down across social/ethnic dividing lines. Which is why identity politics is so damaging.

                      Yes, if we could only charge those cancer patients $200,000 a year, there would be no problem at all.

                      Chad, you clearly have never taken a statistics course, since the phrase expected cost just went right by you.

                      Do you know what the word “expectation” means in statistical terms?

                      It means (to paraphase) the discounted sum of future costs multiplied by the probability of them being realized.

                      In other words, the “expected” cost of that patient’s care is *lower* than the cost of his full cancer treatment, since the probability of him getting cancer is not 1.
                      That’s what it means to be “high risk” rather than “already having cancer”.

                      You buy insurance at approximately the expected cost plus some premium that makes up the insurers profit. if you don’t get cancer, it’s a loss. If you do, you’ve paid out less than what costs were actually realized. That IS the point of insurance.

                    6. Wait, there’s a difference between Bell and a hybrid mixed market?

                    7. Yes. See “every other rich nations’s health care plan” for details.

                    8. You are fucking retarded. Bell became a monopoly because of the highly regulated telephone market. Same reason insurance plans are more expensive than they should be.

                      I hope you fucking die of rationed health services, twat.

            2. And you evaded the question about Obama’s own record on civil liberties by continuing what Bush started. I guess it’s okay with you that the Obama administration extended the PATRIOT Act, then. Typical fauxgressive.

        2. If Americans are so deprived of liberty and freedom then why does the LP register 2% consistently?

          First of all, wtf does the LP have to do with a depravity of liberty and freedom? There’s no solution to America’s woes in any party, especially not in a nation dominated by a two party system. The solution lies in an informed, active, engaged, and vigilant voter. It doesn’t much matter which party a politician attaches themselves to so long as he represents the aforementioned voter.

          Americans are very deprived of freedom and liberty. The fact that they seem so willing to yeild even more is an indication of ignorance. Mandating people have to purchase a service or product is fucking insane. That is not going to fly.

          The GOP? And? I don’t give a fuck about the GOP. And Bush is back on the ranch. For whatever reasons, the GOPer’s are on the right side of this piece of shit legislation. As are some Dems. Some bipartisanship pundits and pols seem to think Americans so desperately want. Which, of course, is horseshit.

      2. Totally.

        The left is all about diversity when it comes to outlandish in-your-face social flamboyance or controversy.

        However, if your idea of “diversity” is living in a community which handles its own affairs, then YOU’RE A FUCKING MONSTER!!!

        The far-left is the biggest group of authoritarians in our nation when it comes to actual effect vs. an artificial balancing of the number of issues, social or economic.

        It’s really sad that the hippies grew up to be conformist, elitist, progressive fascists.

      3. “You tell your grandchildren (in Chinese, of course) that you were fingercockin’ yourself with a glazed over retarded look on your face while reading the delusional comments on the Daily Kos and HuffPo.”

        Sun Hai Zi men: Wo na shi hou jiu kan Daily Koss gen Huffpo zai shua shua de yong zi ji de shou zhi diao gang kou. Zhe jui shi wo de zhi kou; dui bu qi ne le.

      4. Hank, why don’t you go back to “Free” Republic or one of Breitbart’s sites and stop trolling here?

        No surprise that you have racist, paranoid beliefs about a supposed impending Chinese military takeover of America, also (even as the Republicans you vote for still support trade with China with no shred of irony).

        1. Free Republic? I’m not even familiar with that site. How does a dumbass like yourself extrapolate ‘racist’ out of that comment. Are you a “racist profiler” like Garofalo? I guess I am a Tea Bagger too. You’re an idiot.

    7. No Mr. Forrest. I expect you kids with spina bifida to die.

      Bwaa-ha-ha.

    8. You better hope you don’t get seriously sick under Obamacare, or may not live to see those grandchildren.

      Just wait until the government tells you that you can’t get that operation you need.

    9. I care about other people.

      Its just that I don’t think the government has the right to force me to care about other people.

    10. Of course you’ll leave out the part where private insurers were regulated out of business by the government and they were never given a chance to succeed. I’m sure you’ll conveniently forget that prices for medical care were artificially high due to more regulation and risk of lawsuits of frivolous nature (not real negligence). You surely won’t mention that you only had a couple of choices for insurance as it was illegal to do something crazy like compete nationwide. To you those must be inconvenient truths best left out of history as revised by the People’s Republic of America.

  41. I feel everyone’s pain, but we could get the worst of all worlds…they’ll pass this bill and then, in November, the world won’t have ended and folks will think “Sure, my rep voted for Health Care Reform but otherwise they’re pretty good” and few of them will get voted out.
    But I’m just being cynical.

    1. A whole lot of them will get voted out. But that doesn’t mean any of this stuff will ever get undone. They will all be on the street claiming to be martyrs for healthcare.

    2. A lot of ‘yes’ votes came from moderate and conservative districts what polled against this bill. I think it won’t be pretty in those districts.

      1. Every district polled against this thing. Literally all but 100 or so Districts polled against this bill. It won’t just be the conservative districts where it gets ugly.

    3. A lot of ‘yes’ votes came from moderate and conservative districts what polled against this bill. I think it won’t be pretty in those districts.

    4. Ah, but per Pelosi, what happens when they find out what’s really in the bill? Sorry to harp on this one point, but I think a lot of voters will say “Wait a minute: you are going to decrease health care costs by taxing medical devices? Including powered wheelchairs??”

  42. We’ll see. My rep is Adam “No, not that one” Smith, and he’s spent his career recanting his lousy votes and he keeps right on getting re-elected.

  43. I’m saving my old beer bottles so I’ll have plenty of broken glass to crawl over to vote against my rep.

  44. The guy running against Stupac a Dr. Dan Benishek has a facebook page and is getting like 30 hits a minute asking to donate money. That guy had a good day at least. Welcome to the House of Representatives Dr. Dan.

  45. That dipshit David Frumm is out saying how the Republicans should have caved and gotten a few improvements in the bill and voted for it. Yeah, bi partisan ass fucking. That would have helped things a lot there David. I really hate that guy.

  46. Also, I just thought of something. The Constitution says all revenue bills must originate in the House. How can the House pass a Senate bill with tax and fee increases? Surely I am missing something there. But I can’t think of what.

    1. It’s an old trick. The Senate takes some other, unrelated bill that passed the House and substitutes the entire text with the bill they want to pass, then passes it and sends it back to the House.

      1. Wouldn’t that tactic require 60 votes?

        1. They did this already to pass the Senate bill. Now the House is going to pass the Senate bill and another bill that needs to get sent to the Senate again – that’s the one with all the bribes in it.

      2. Has the Supreme Court ever been asked to consider whether such a practice is essentially gutting the language of the constitution?

      3. Has the Supreme Court ever been asked to rule on whether such a practice is effectively gutting the relevant Constitutional passage?

        1. Does it matter? The Supreme Court, with one occasional exception, decides based on results and not principles.

        2. The SCOTUS is not going to intervene in an issue of legislative protocol unless the Constitution explicitly demands it. That’s not the case here — technically, the bill originated in the House.

        3. I’ve given up on the SCOTUS ever rendering an honest judgement on Constitutionality.

          The liberals on the Court will rule that the practice is acceptable, the conservatives will counter that it is not.

          The reverse would have been true if the exact same question had been brought to the Court under a Republican Congress and Administration.

          Politics will always take precedent over principle. (e.g. Bush v. Gore)

          1. People keep saying that, but wasn’t the crucial issue in Bush v. Gore decided 7-2? It’s hard to say that’s a sign of the court splitting along partisan lines.

            1. Shh. You’re not supposed to mention this – or that Gore would have lost anyway had the recount continued.

  47. they’ll pass this bill and then, in November, the world won’t have ended and folks will think “Sure, my rep voted for Health Care Reform but otherwise they’re pretty good” and few of them will get voted out.

    That’s pretty much what I see happening.

    The real adverse effects of this will take years to become impossible to ignore.

    And, of course, the candidates will then say, “Well, gosh- I guess you’re right. It is a pig. What do ya know about that? Well, you hold it while I put some lipstick on it. Then it’ll be alright. Mebbe afterwards we kin teach it to whistle Dixie.”

    1. You don’t understand. We’re not talking about kicking out Representatives who’ve been in office for 20 years. If the Dems who have been in the house only since 2006 or 2008 are voted out, they lose their majority by a large margin.

  48. Anyone listening to these clowns? Hoyer basically read a DailyKos diary from mcjoan in his opening speech.

  49. Anyone care to wager the evil statist party (ie, democrats) continues destroying the US economy with this shit, plus cap & trade and forced unionization, the CRA, TARP and cash for Acorn, as the federal fisc collapses even more quickly from this latest budget buster / private sector killer, then, after the forced retirement of democrats come November, a newly rebranded democratic party assumes the mantle of fiscal probity by advocating a national sales tax (while keeping the income and corporate taxes high) ? Presto, US converted into a Euro trash state in the space of a few years, all due to American idiots who cannot vet their politicians, or take the MSM’s bullshit with a grain of salt?

    I weep for the country we once were, and what a shithole we’re becoming.

    1. Good grief, this is what Reason associating with Breitfart has wrought: paranoid numbskulls like this trolling this place and trying to latch on to libertarianism even though they mocked libertarians for decades, and still do.

      The EFCA is never going to pass and ACORN is going bankrupt. And your hero Bush is just as guilty of being a statist Big Government douche, turning this country into a shithole and destroying the economy.

      So piss off, you hypocritical moonbat fraud.

      1. ACORN is going bankrupt thanks to Beitbart. You claim to be a “libertarian” but you seem to only like people from the left and hate everyone who is not on the left.

        I beleive they call that “concern trolling”. And since you can’t do anything but call names and can’t make an argument above the level of a grade school playground, it is pretty obvious you are a liberal.

        No one is buying it. No one has seen you around here before. Stop trolling and go fuck up someone else’s sight. Loser.

      2. Umm, chimp, the EFCA and CAP/TRADE are still on the table in the Senate…and the ass in the WH has recommitted to it through his media lackeys recently.

        If the healthcare mess shows anything its that despite strong and continual public opposition and an economy full of businesses that are barely holding on and cannot handle any additional cost, the dems do not care, and will push on regardless – they know they are out for a good long time (from the leg branch) and probably the prez too. what they’re after is ramming through structural changes, and both those fit the bill.

        Chimp, after the election of Scott Brown, the pundits all declared Obamacare dead even as Obama said they would focus on the economy – yet here we are.

        The WH knows the legislative branch is lost come November, probably for a long time. The WH wants to ram all the structural changes through they can, while they can, then Obama can run against an evil Repub congress in 2012. They know the legislative branch is lost to them – they like it. Its a good deal, when they look at how they’re remaking america.

        Your points are inane (they few you raise) – GWB was an ass – he did not fight against the dem big govt machine enough, and we paid the price. But you cannot absolve the congress of resp (umm – CRA, FANNY FREDDY etc are all Dem operations, as was protecting them from reform). Repubs punished the repub party starting in 2006 – that’s why the statists started winning – the repubs stayed home…all your prez has done is accelerate all that is wrong in the country.

        If you can’t see that, you’re simply too dumb to breathe. And Breitbart is awesome.

  50. Need some investment advice: Where’s the most effective (not necessarily the most “ideologically pure”) place to put my money to fight this ugly bill-apparently-about-to-be-law? I’m in western OH, which is pretty solidly R in the House (as opposed to eastern OH, pretty solidly D,) our R senator is retiring this year, and our D senator isn’t up for re-election until ’12. Should I put my money into:

    1. State Republican party
    B. RNC
    III. More guns & ammo (if so, hand or long?) or
    ? Some other effort like a “Legal Offense Fund” to support a constitutional challenge?

  51. There won’t be any sudden upheaval or dramatic movement of the earth if this passes. That’s the problem. No, what will happen will be exactly what happened in Massachussetts. Costs of healthcare and coverage will skyrocket out of control faster than before but unlike Massachussetts, with no one to bail out the Feds, the government will have no choice but to tinker with the legislation more and more aggressively. As this inevitably fails to have an impact on costs- aside from the obvious unintended negative impacts, the discussion will eventually turn to the obvious: this is proof that *any* reliability on the free market to control costs is a failure, and therefore whatever remaining market measures are left in our system will be exorcised- and a single-payer system will be brought in.

    By that time, all of our legislative energies will focussed on or around healthcare and its impact to it. We’ll even have to start tinkering with social security- arguably as part of the reason for social security’s existence is post-retirement healthcare. Undoubtedly, the social security tax system will be jerrymandered and woven into healthcare budget- which by this time will represent a major part of the entire U.S. Government budget. Social security will no longer be “the third rail of politics”, healthcare will become the PRIMARY rail of politics, and its juggernaut will be unequaled by anything else in our nations history.

    That is when serious healthcare rationing will take place, and hopefully then people will realize the catastrophic mistake we’ve made with our healthcare system.

    Unfortunately, being an entitlement, any attempt to start reversing this disaster will be course, the re-introduction of small market-based reforms. A look at almost all the other single payer systems around the world at this moment in history is a good guide for how this will look. Unfortunately, they’ll come too slow and be too little. At that time this so-called ‘revolution’ might occur when the populace finally gets fed up with being given universal “access” but with no actual healthcare accompanying said “access”.

    1. And when its is unmistakable to all but the low side of the bell curve drones that govt healthcare is a total disaster (unless you’re a beurocrat), then what? the dems will tar anyone who says re-intorduce the private sector as denying the sick access to care…(you know, like govt rationing does…)

      I doubt we’ll be seeing many Obama bumper stickers from now on, but the damage this clown is doing to the country is immeasurable.

  52. Look, Obamacare sucks, but Reason isn’t helping itself by associating with a creep like Andrew Breitbart, either.

      1. Stuck a nerve, didn’t I? Good.

    1. What makes Breitbart a creep?

      1. Nothing. He is over here trolling from KOS or somewhere. Just came over to fuck up the conversation. He is a D list troll. Just ignore him.

    2. Dude, you’re a creep. Why are you associating yourself with Reason? A much more appropriate question.

      Mike Flynn, formerly of Reason, writes an article. Reason post the article on Hit and Run. You’re not as much a creep as an idiot.

  53. I also couldn’t help but notice how oddly similar Chad and Hank are despite appearing as polar opposites politically. I’m almost tempted to believe they’re the same person/troll.

    1. Is that all you have, fuckhead? Accusing people of being right-wingers? Now, a right-wing version of Chad. Where are you Chad? Is that you Tony?

      What are you, some sort of libertarian nazi? I don’t give a shit about progressivism, conservatisism, or libertarianism, for that matter. I care about useful information. I rarely browse the comment section and do so for humor most of the time. Go fuck yourself, prick.

      1. Hank. Stop feeding the troll. It just encourages them. This guy isn’t even performance art.

        1. Asharak is no troll. I know the guy.

          Brietbart embellished the ACORN story. Apparently, O’Keefe wasn’t dressed like a pimp or anything. Basically, Brietbart’s credibility is shot. I see Asharak’s point of view. And I agree. Jason Blair is a past warning about this shit.

          1. Well actually Brietbart embellished a lot of stuff. Not just the outfit part. Plus this kind of shit has come up before about him.

  54. Because this is an individual mandate, virtually every American has standing to file suit against this provision

    I wonder if an individual or state has to pay at least one premium, which will incur financial injury in order to show damage to reach the level of ‘standing’ determination.

  55. I agree with Mr. Flynn in that we will see Constitutional challenges but not necessarily the ones he sees. Once this monstrosity is passed, it creates a new Federal “civil right” equating health care with other federal civil rights protections (yes, I know, protections only on paper, in theory not necessarily practice). Thus, Virginia and all the other states bucking for a court fight will eventually lose, as the argument will be framed by Obamacare supporters as states infringing on the civil rights of individuals. In other words, Virginia and all these other states putting up challenges will be painted as the new Lester Maddox, Bull Connor, or George Wallace (“I say medication now, medication tomorrow, medication forever!”).

    And just imagine all the “states’ rights” fun we’ll have in the idiot mainstream media with a leftist black President in the White House. By the end of the summer, I guess George Soros will be funding commercials showing how Republicans in white sheets are eating barbecued black babies for breakfast …

  56. Please note many home insurance does not include enough flood coverage, contact me for a free home and flood insurance coverage quote http://bit.ly/ajc5p7

  57. Aw, it was a top quality content. Actually I would like to write like this as well ? taking time and real energy to bring about an excellent post? however what can I say? I procrastinate an awful lot and by no means appear to get things completed sports betting

  58. I very much impressive to read this post. Great informative, I will go to bookmarking this pariuri sportive

  59. Please note many home insurance does not include enough flood coverage,

  60. Once this monstrosity is passed, it creates a new Federal “civil right” equating health care with other federal civil rights protections

  61. Just had better the future tense arise to Hans Albrecht Bethe actualisation by your angriest fancies, Chadic, Gem State comprise gallant to comprise called back by on Ayn Rand, Rothbard and Milton Friedman because among account biggest behemoths.

  62. Just had better the future tense arise to Hans Albrecht Bethe actualisation by your angriest fancies, Chadic, Gem State comprise gallant to comprise called back by on Ayn Rand, Rothbard and Milton Friedman because among account biggest behemoths.

  63. an event that was organized in just a little over 24 hours. In cities throughout the country, protests and rallies broke out, each attended by hundreds of citizens with only a few hours notice. 
    http://destinationsoftwareinc.com

  64. I wanted to thank you for this great read!! I definitely loved every little bit of it. I have you bookmarked your site to check out the new stuff you post.

  65. I was just browsing for relevant blog posts for my project research and I happened to discover yours. Thanks for the excellent information! 🙂

  66. There are certainly a lot more details to take into consideration, but thanks for sharing this information. Internet Marketing

  67. This is my first time i visit here. I found so many entertaining stuff in your blog, especially its discussion. From the tons of comments on your articles, I guess I am not the only one having all the leisure here! Keep up the good work.

  68. this is the most informative site and the discussion here give an outstanding info.

  69. This is an individual mandate, virtually every American has standing to file suit against this provision. Also, it is in direct conflict
    San Diego Podiatrist

  70. his is an individual mandate, virtually every American has standing to file suit against this provision. Also, it is in direct conflict
    Bankruptcy San Diego

  71. I also couldn’t help but notice how oddly similar Chad and Hank are despite appearing as polar opposites politically. I’m almost tempted to believe they’re the same person_troll.

  72. Great article. I like reading it

  73. this is the most informative site and the discussion here give an outstanding info.
    Round Rock Window Company

  74. Lack of government leaders

  75. I also couldn’t help but notice how oddly similar Chad and Hank are despite appearing as polar opposites politically. I’m almost tempted to believe they’re the same person_troll.

  76. I really like what you have acquired here, certainly like what you’re stating and the way in which you say it.

  77. People (anyone paying attention) are very scared and concerned about the future of this country. I’d say it’s time to start reconsidering who the real terrorists are.The Mass state treasurer was on TV last night saying if it weren’t for billions of federal dollars, the state would have gone under because of the bill.

Please to post comments

Comments are closed.