Civil Liberties

Deep Dish Media Criticism


In today's Wall Street Journal, Instapundit Glenn Reynolds outlines the basics of deep dish, Chicago-style media criticism. He starts with the case of several Northwestern kids targeted by Cook County prosecutors because they are journalism students—but not, the Chicago officials maintain, journalists—working with the Innocence Project to expose the wrongful convictions, like that of Anthony McKinney, who has spent 31 years in a Chicago jail after a false confession. Sez Reynolds:

The Cook County prosecutors' actions are certainly shameful. But they may be excused for thinking that attacks on media critics are, in today's political era, business as usual. Indeed, they need look no farther than the White House, whose occupant has sometimes styled himself the nation's chief media critic.

It is, after all, the Obama administration that declared that its critics at Fox News Channel are not real journalists, and that Fox is not a "legitimate news organization." In doing so—as White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs admitted with a reference to "brushback pitches" in baseball—the White House's goal was just the same as that of the prosecutors in the president's native city: To chill criticism, and to get journalists to think twice before stepping up to the plate.

Reason's own Radley Balko has been all over this story as well.

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  1. There might be a slight difference between criticizing people, even calling them “not real journalists” and actually subpoenaing their notes.

    1. A slight difference, sure, but the idea that some are “real journalists” with rights worth protecting while others are not surely leads to the subpoena.

      1. As long as politicians honor FOIA requests, I don’t have a problem with them refusing to do any press conferences or conduct any interviews.

        The press is free to run non-stop “Politician X is a Coward!” coverage if they want.

        “Freedom of the press” does not mean “public officials must make themselves available to fill some cable outlet’s need for content”. Personally, I think one reason that our political and media environment is so insipid and despicable is that our government is now run on a timetable designed for the scheduling convenience of the news networks. The news networks need content, so office holders conduct stupid televised events instead of just governing. I doubt Thomas Jefferson had a press secretary who held daily briefings for a room full of assholes, but somehow we still had a free press.

        You can’t even compare prosecutorial harassment with a simple lack of preferential treatment.

      2. Really? A slight difference between a subpoena and an insult? And I guess there’s only a slight difference between a subpoena and indefinite detention, too. Slight differences all the way down.

        1. I can insult you in a thread, I can’t subpoena you.

          1. I can subpoena you as a result of your conduct on this thread, under the various anti-cyber-bullying laws.

            1. Ha ha ha hawesome.

            2. Day that happens to me, thought process goes like this:

              ‘Really got nothing to lose. That tower top looks really spiffy.’

              If I’m going down it is going to be over something real, not petty crap worthy of Franz Kafka.

    2. yeah right, you really think the administration – if it got away with kicking fox out of interviews, would not next:
      kick them out of the WH pool
      then issue injunctions just before the next election, since they already “proved” fox is not journalism and no one spoke up in a year and a half?

      of course that was their intent. Obama has already spoken out in favor of bringing back the Fairness Doctrine, and on Oct 1 spoke to the UN in favor of restricting speech that “insults religions”

      1. Exactly. Little bitch-boy has already had his peons sign on to UN restrictions on speech.

      2. Barack Obama, not a liberal bone in his progressivist boney ass body.

  2. He starts with the case of several Northwestern kids targeted by Cook County prosecutors because they are journalism students

    If anybody should be targeted it should be them. Followed by PoliSci majors.

  3. Wrong. Women’s Studies.

    1. OK, Women’s Studies first, then those other two.

      1. I appreciate your willingness to compromise.

        1. Bipartisanship in action.

          1. uh, gaiz, it’s “womyn”

            1. Anybody who spells it that way shoud be monitored.

  4. The prosecuters can and should lose this one. Anyone who acts as a journalist is a journalist. Period. There are distinctions to be made in terms of quality and integrity, etc., Is there a licence required?

  5. The Journalism Czar will be forthcoming with licensing requirements.

  6. Journalists are whoever the government says they are. Didn’t you guys get the memo?

  7. bit of a reach by glenn reynolds. it’s not like this is an obama-era technique from local law enforcement. this is old school shit.

    1. Agreed, this isn’t new. But blame it all on the guy currently in the Whitehouse isn’t new either.

      1. It’s really Bush’s mess.

      2. I don’t think the point was to “blame” it on Obama. The point was to say “This is where our current president cut his political teeth, and this is how they play the game” and to point at a possible connection in political cultures.

    2. True enough, but the White House made a really dumb and inappropriate move in attacking the status of Fox as a news organization. Bush spent the second half of his administration getting trashed by most of the TV news and plenty of the print, and I don’t remember his administration doing anything silly like that. And that’s saying something, because they didn’t hesitate to brazenly cross the line on plenty of other issues.

      1. Bush froze out MSNBC because he perceived them as being liberal and against his agenda (Dana Perino said so).

        Cheney too basically froze out everyone except Fox News. They were one of the few places he would go on the air and give interviews and he would refer to them as a friendly forum in memos.

        Maybe it’s your memory that’s problematic.

        1. That isn’t true. I heard Rush Limbaugh interview Cheney.

        2. towards the end of 8 years they met less with MSNBC, they’ve admitted that. Not before year 1 was even up, and they didn’t make any moves to “go after” them, Gillespie just sent them an letter complaining.

  8. Is there any issue that Glenn Reynolds can’t twist into “Democrats are to blame for every bad thing everywhere” by the second sentence?

    1. Is there any issue that Glenn Reynolds can’t twist into “Democrats are to blame for every bad thing everywhere” by the second sentence?

      Nope, not one. And the pathetic Glibertarians will nod approvingly.

      1. Keep licking Obama’s boots.

      2. Fuck this hate monger.

  9. Obama isn’t a real president, he is nothing but a little bitch.

  10. Scare ’em while they’re young.

    1. Just admit that it’s you under your nom de plume.

    2. Sweet. Yet another op-ed column in the WaPo that I can regularly ignore.

    3. Here’s the link to her actual essay…it’s retch-inducing Pro-bama treacle:…..ement.html

      1. Ugh. Self-deluded, ass-nuzzling sycophantic pablum.

  11. Fuck the Media. The KIDS like me:

    ELEMENTARY EPIDEMIC: 11 Uncovered Videos Show School Children Performing Praises to Obama:

    Big Hollywood has already posted a couple disturbing videos of young school children singing/speaking praises to President Obama, but when eleven more dropped in our email box it came as quite a shock. What seemed like an aberration now appears to be a troubling pattern.

    Maybe “epidemic” is a better word.

    Each one of the videos below is creepier than the last because the further down you go, the younger the children ? brace yourself for kindergartners ? except for the last and most disturbing video, which you have to see to believe.


  12. There’s a reason we haven’t and don’t require licensing of journalists or, beyond the generic business requirements, the media (we’ll talk later about the FCC and broadcast–grrrr). To prevent exactly this sort of thing from happening. A journalist is someone who publishes–in pretty much any public medium–news. Period. The government has no business regulating it, commenting on it (beyond responding to specific issues, I suppose, like “That’s a damned lie!”), defining it, or otherwise hindering the freedom of the press.

  13. …deep dish, Chicago-style media criticism…

    If you want real food, go north on I-94.

  14. Milwaukee? For pizza? You know what? Fuck Wisconsin.

    Just kidding. I almost got killed there, so I’m bitter.

    1. Deep dish pizza isn’t pizza, you philistine. It’s an open calzone. And it SUCKS.

      Chicagoans amazingly think they have good food, which is hilarious. Bread “pizza” and knockwurst doesn’t for a great palate make.

      1. You have no taste.

        You probably think cardboard with grease on it is pizza.

        1. Seeing that you seem to think that focaccia with part-skim, month old mozzarella on it with tomato paste with sugar in it, plus various greasy sliced deli meats on it is a pizza, this is rich.

          1. “tomato paste with sugar in it”

            Pure, unadulterated evil.

          2. Epi, have you had Chicago pizza? It surpassed my conception of deep-dish pizza by a mile. A solid mile of cheese. Actually pretty tasty, but extremely heavy and no comparision to proper, fresh mozzarella pizza.

            1. I like the really thin crust pizza they have in Chicago. The kind they don’t let the tourists see.

            2. Personally, my fav in Chicago is Lou Malnati’s. People talk about Gino’s and Uno, but hands down Malnati’s IMHO is the best

              (Gino’s is nice if you like their corn meal crust)

              Malnati’s even beat Bobby Flay in a throwdown!

              1. Lou’s is good food. Uno died when it enchainified, but Gino’s was pretty danged good last time I was there (back in the mid 90s, sadly).

                1. The original Uno’s and Due’s are the same as ever. They use different recipes at the outposts.

                  1. That’s what they tell you, highnumber. It’s a damned lie.

              2. Everybody beats Bobby Flay in those throwdowns. The purpose of that show is, as Tony Bourdain said, to humiliate Flay and show him who’s boss.

                1. I live to see Flay get beaten. It can make my whole day.

                  And Tom, by even mentioning Uno’s, you have fully discredited yourself; I need do no further work.

              3. Thin crust is Chicago’s everyday style. Best are the neighborhood joints. Try italian beef and hot giardiniera on your pizza. Yum.

              4. Ugh…Having grown up in north of Chicago, I somehow managed to not go to Gino’s, Giardano’s, Uno’s or Lou’s until I moved away. I really like Gino’s, real Uno’s is quite good also, Giardano’s is pretty decent, but I’ve only been to Lou’s once, and I doubt I’ll ever go back.

                However, I really prefer local pub pizza. There was a place in the NW subs called Bill’s pub that had spectacularly good double decker, though it was a bit pricey. We usually got our pizza from a place called Pat’s out by the College of Lake county. Double decker, almost as good as Bill’s, and about half the price.

                The thing about Chicago food, is it’s about the same price as food in other big cities, for about twice the calories. Everything is more hearty, more flavorful, and in larger portions. I have no idea how I still weigh as little as I do.

                1. Funny, as Lou’s an Uno’s have had places in the north subs for over 15 years. And, there IS STILL a Bill’s Pub in the north subs – two in fact. The Mundelien original, and the newer NOT-NEARLY-AS-GOOD (and no relation anymore to the Mundelien owners, btw) Bill’s Pub North – the former there for over 40 years, the latter for about 10?

            3. Freddy’s pizza on 16th and Austin (just over the Cicero border)was the best pizza I’ve had to this day. I used to work there when I was a kid, talk about a dream job. They also had the best homemade gellato and italian ice. If you are ever out that way, do yourselves a huge favor and stop in. I’m still pissed off that my last trip through there was on an Sunday, so they were closed!!

          3. Have some Seattle pizza, you heathen. With salmon and soy cheese.

            New York pizza is okay, but inferior to Chicago’s. As you well know.

      2. Chicagoans amazingly think they have good food, which is hilarious. Bread “pizza” and knockwurst doesn’t for a great palate make

        We don’t have good food. We have great food you elitist prick!

        Greasy cardboard isn’t pizza…and saying a deep dish pizza is the equivalent to a calzone just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

        Along with out pizza, our hot dogs are the best in the country.

        1. I love the Chicago style hot dog too. Hard to find places with the proper ingredients around here. Especially those fantastic peppers.

        2. Agreed. I’m a kraut guy, though. Onions are an abomination on the dog.

          1. You should be hanged from the highest water tower on Michigan Avenue.

          2. You need to try a Ben’s Chili Bowl (in DC) half-smoke with everything. If you die at that moment, it will be a very happy death.

            Just don’t hold Obama’s photo-op against them.

            1. Ben’s chili bowl is the shizznit.

            2. Didn’t ben die a couple of weeks ago?

              1. Yes. You don’t know what he wanted done with his body. Just don’t go there for a couple weeks until the chili takes on it’s old, familiar flavor again.

        3. I have eaten hot dogs in ohter states and thought “wtf is this? breakfast sausage?” how anyone can put pork in a hot dog boggles the imagination.

  15. It’s later than you think.

    1. So enjoy yourself!

  16. The foie gras hot dog with truffle mustard on Anthony Bourdain’s Chicago episode was almost enough to make you forget all the fucked up shit that happens in that city.

      1. That was the place! I wish I had known to go there when I was last in Chicago. Went to another supposedly famous hot dog joint, but no duck fat fries, unfortunately.

        1. If it is not served from dirty water in a Vienna cart, on the street, it is NOT a Chicago hot dog.

        2. Just remember… the duck fat fries are only on Saturday.

          1. Friday, too.

            1. Oh? Delicious.

      2. Screw those rent seeking anti competative bastards


  17. The foie gras hot dog with truffle mustard on Anthony Bourdain’s Chicago episode was almost enough to make you forget all the fucked up shit that happens in that city.

    The illegalilty of the foie gras hot dog was a fine reminder. The episode should have ended with him getting shot by a cop, though.

  18. But they may be excused for thinking that attacks on media critics are, in today’s political era, business as usual. Indeed, they need look no farther than the White House, whose occupant has sometimes styled himself the nation’s chief media critic.

    Jesus Christ what a shitty blog post by both Reynolds, and KMW — who apparently had nothing of any value to add and just wanted to nod approvingly at this typically dishonest commentary by Instaputz.

    Apparently in the fantasy world of Reynolds and KMW, the GOP hasn’t been attacking the media as being liberal and in the tank for liberals/democrats for oh the past 40 fucking years. Cuz you know that who “liberal media” meme, it came from the Obama campagin.

    Yes Mr. Reynolds, media criticism began with the Obama White House. It never happened before Jan 2009 and it certainly never came from the mouths of Republicans or Libertarians.

    1. Again, Obama takes things to a new level (‘not real new organization’, bigger deficits, etc.) and ChicagoTom races to defend his messiah.

      Obama zombies sure are stupid.

      1. Again, Obama takes things to a new level (‘not real new organization’, bigger deficits, etc.) and ChicagoTom races to defend his messiah.

        Again the conservatives and the glibertarians try to pretend like Obama is doing something different than every fucking politician in history has ever done — and the rubes swallow it hook like and sinker.

        I’m not defending Obama, I’m attacking the dishonesty.

        Fox is a GOP propaganda outlet. The fucking GOP sends them talking points and they report them.

        Why is it wrong to state that?

        1. It’s not that he is doing something different. It’s that he is doing so much more of it.

        2. Well Bush did it!
          Well, Clinton did it!
          Well, Bush did it!
          Well, Reagen did it!
          Well, Jimmah did it!
          Well, Ford did it!
          Well, Nixon did it!
          Well, Hitler did it!

          1. If George Washington didn’t do it, then the current president shouldn’t.

          2. And they all copied The Simpsons.

    2. I agree, by the way.


  19. CT,

    I think it’s a material difference to throw out statements about the media being biased (though I frown on that practice as well, at least when the statement comes from people in government) and to challenge whether a news organization is actually a news organization. The latter strikes very close to saying that such entity does not enjoy the protections of the freedom of the press. Not good, especially given the way the campaign finance laws are written.

    However, to join with you in harmony on another point, Chicago pizza is the best.

    1. Not that your opinion of me can get any lower but I find a Pizza Hut deep dish pan super supreme pizza very tasty. That’s my idea of damn good pizza. Not meaty tomato soup in a breadbowl and not blackened cardboard with assorted toppings.

      1. brotherben,

        Your comment does not appear to be written in an English script. Please comment in English.

      2. You might want to see my comments about Chicago/deep dish pizza above.

      3. Have you tried the one with the cheese stuffed crust?

        I don’t particularly like Pizza Hut’s pizza but the concept has me intrigued and always made me want to try one….there just is no Pizza Hut close to me.

        1. Its certainly novel but it gets old fast.

        2. No I haven’t. I prefer cheese as a condiment to all the meat and veggies, not as a food group.

        3. I worked at a Pizza Hut for two weeks, twenty years ago. I wasn’t dirty, I saw no shocking acts of unhealthiness… but I’ve still never eaten there again.

          CT, if you want to play with the concept, there are a few brands of frozen pizzas that have stuffed crusts.

          My objection is that the stuffed crusts makes the slightly burned crust bubble nearly impossible to form, thus eliminating one of my favorite aspects of pizzadom.

          1. I’ve also seen the sauce-stuffed crust. Because there’s nothing you want more than to bite into a hollow tube of bread filled with boiling point tomato sauce.

            It’s like someone figured out how to weaponize pizza.

          2. I had a friend who worked at Pizza Hut in highschool. She got all the free breadsticks she could eat, and, predictably, blew up like a balloon.

          3. While we’re on food, anybody have a quick recipe for BBQ sauce(mild, not hot) for these chicken thighs I’m cookin tonight?

            1. Try the sauce from the following recipe:

              Add hickory, oak, and maple chunks to your smoker. Refer to the directions for your smoker to determine the correct amount of chips for the meat and for lighting instructions. When the chips are ready, add the pork and smoke it for 2 to 2 1/2 hours at 250 degrees F. Remove the pork and wrap it in heavy-duty aluminum foil.

              Preheat the oven to 225 degrees F.

              Cook the pork for 6 to 8 hours or until the meat is tender and falls apart when the bone is removed. Chop the pork coarsely and mix in salt and barbecue sauce, to taste. Serve with more barbecue sauce on the side.

              Barbecue sauce:
              2 cups white vinegar
              2 sticks butter
              2 tbs. salt
              2 tbs. lemon juice
              2 tbs. crushed red pepper
              1 tbs. black pepper
              1 tbs. Tabasco
              2 tbs. sugar

              In a medium saucepan, combine the vinegar, red pepper, garlic and salt over high heat. Bring to a boil and then reduce the heat to medium-high. Boil for 15 to 20 minutes and then remove from the heat. Let cool then add the black pepper.

              1. thanks, warty.

                1. Apparently I’m now a spammer and am not allowed to post links.

                  1. Squirrel is broken. Real spammers post working links. And someone was impersonating you on an earlier thread.

                  2. After some of the links you’ve posted, I’m not surprised. *shudder*

              2. I have it on good authority that Warty left out one secret ingredient from this recipe.

                1. Plutonium?

                  1. Rhymes with Glee-Men.

                    1. Glee men are an outstanding additive to any dish. The lack of testosterone makes for tender meat.

                  2. I’m sure you can find plutonium at any corner store in 1985, but in 1955 it’s a little hard to come by.

            2. BBQ Sauce recipes by region

              I’ve been making Filipino BBQ sauce a lot lately, it takes a little while though. (But freezes well in large batches.)

          4. CT, if you want to play with the concept, there are a few brands of frozen pizzas that have stuffed crusts.

            You know I didn’t even think about that. I should check out the freezer case at the grocery store.

        4. But it’s stuffed with…fucking month-old part-skim mozzarella? Why the fuck would you even touch that shit? Have you had truly fresh, made-that-morning-by-hand mozzarella? The shit they use at Pizza Hut and that they sell in the grocery store is just a crime.

          Besides, cheese in the crust is pure overkill. Subtlety is required in good pizza.

          1. Until you milk your own cow to make your own mozzarella, shut the hell up.

            That condemnation stated, I’m opposed to cheese in the crust, too. While I think subtlety is the wrong word for pizza as a whole (subtle flavors like basil? Garlic? Huh?), I agree that too much is too much. It’s like the hamburger Lee Roy Selmon’s restaurant serves with pulled pork. Too much.

            1. PULLED PORK HAMBURGERS?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

            2. I am proceeding on foot.

            3. Uh, that’s what the pork store is for, dude. Hey, that rhymes.

              And basil and garlic are subtle when you use them judiciously. A truly great pizza needs only fresh mozzarella, sauce, basil, and fresh garlic on a very thin crust. Anything else is overkill.

              Ah, why am I talking to you Irish/Scottish bastards anyway? You evolved too far away from the Mediterranean to even understand food.

              1. damn greecer.

              2. You know what I had for lunch, Epi? A ribeye steak. I’m better at food than you.

                1. And I had a Spanish omelet with asparagus and smoked ham. That I made myself.

                  1. Well, look at you, fancypants. I made my food, too. Do I get food-nerd points for making it in a cast iron skillet?

                  2. Did you raise and slaughter the pig yourself? Of course not. Weak.

                    And I’m not Irish.

                    1. Pigs are annoying when it’s time to kill, them, because they’re smart enough to figure out what’s going on. Not like cows who happily enter Bovine University.

                    2. Get a few cases of the cheapest redwine you can find. Soak a buncha grain in it and finish the hogs on that for the last few days before slaughter. They get real mellow for the kill and it adds a nice dimension to the flavor of the meat.

                    3. That’s the smartest idea I’ve ever heard.

                    4. I use it on goats too, butt for a different reason.

              3. Saw a quote recently that came from an LSU tailgate: “If you are from North of I-10, you cant cook for fuck”. Something like that, its a rough quote.

                1. I think that’s extreme. My great-aunt is an amazing cook (actually, “was”, though she’s still going in her mid-90s) and lives in Tennessee.

                  I’d definitely rank New Orleans food very, very high if not at the top of the American cuisine chart.

            4. our local joint (austin, tx) makes their own mozzarella daily. tough to beat that.

              if it doesn’t use tipo fino 00, san marzano dop tomatoes, and real mozz, it ain’t pizza.

              pizza hut? jesus christ.

    2. I think it’s a material difference to throw out statements about the media being biased (though I frown on that practice as well, at least when the statement comes from people in government) and to challenge whether a news organization is actually a news organization.

      I don’t. Repeating over and over that the media is biased against conservatives is attacking the credibility of the news organization.

      Just like saying Fox isn’t a real news organization, but a propaganda outlet for the GOP.

      It’s the same thing — casting doubt on the credibility of a news organization. Attacking the messenger to make people doubt the message.

      You seem to be making a distinction without a real difference.

      The latter strikes very close to saying that such entity does not enjoy the protections of the freedom of the press

      It does no such thing.

      I think you are reading way to much into the statements by the White house. The message is : they aren’t doing real news, they are distributing GOP talking points and pushing GOP propaganda. Last I checked the 1st still applied to propaganda outlets and NO ONE has implied anything about a loss of 1st amendment protections. (Not that the executive can even unilaterally decide those things).

      However, to join with you in harmony on another point, Chicago pizza is the best.

      This we can agree on.

      1. However, to join with you in harmony on another point, Chicago pizza is the best thing for wiping a dog’s ass after a bout of projectile diarrhea.


        1. Who are you, Episiarch?

          1. Do I look fuckin’ queer to you, PL???

            1. I read that pizza comment and I think, “How well do I really know Enough About Palin?”

    3. Given that MSNBC suspended election coverage at 10:00 pm ET on Tuesday, in order to run a repeat of the Olbermann show (with absolutely no scrolling campaign numbers anywhere on the screen) tells me that MSNBC is NOT a news organization.

  20. Yes, Rush limbaugh has been raving about the liberal media for years, but no sitting republican president has ever called a news organization completely illegitimate. No matter how bad things got. Obama’s just being stupid.

    1. Agreed, it’s one thing for media to rant about each other, it’s different for a sitting president to do so.

  21. The illegalilty of the foie gras hot dog was a fine reminder.

    A victory on that front, at least. Hearing Bourdain gush that it was a triumph of the forces of good over evil is enough to warm the heart of any libertarian foodie.

  22. The right likes to attack media they don’t like by painting them with the mainstream media tag.

  23. ChicagoTom,

    Have you ever made to the Hop Leaf Inn? Did I already talk to you about this?

  24. OK, Chicagophiles: Name one good Chicagoland custard stand. (Of course, Culver’s doesn’t count.)

    1. Trick question alert! There is no such thing as good custard.

      1. Custard’s Last Stand?

        1. (Insert inevitable “Histeria!” reference here.)

      2. Oh, contraire. Custard in the Midwest sense is basically ice cream, only with more fat.

        What’s not to like?

        1. The obese women it produces?

    2. Im partial to Mike’s Frozen Custard in Madison.

      Not quite Chicagoland.

      1. “Not quite” is very much an understatement. (FWIW, it’s actually “Michael’s”–with apparently four locations in Dane County; I think I’ve eaten at two of them–albeit a couple of decades ago.)

    3. Eww, custard? Maybe there aren’t any because Chicagoans know that if you’re going to eat a frozen desert, that you should eat the real thing.

      1. Forget custard. I have all the frozen treats I need within a few blocks of me:

        That said, I know there must be good custard around here because I’ve known people who wouldn’t shut up about it being different and better than ice cream.

        1. Italian ice and gelato are good things.

          It’s like pizza and barbecue–there’s a scale of goodness, but even the regular stuff can be pretty tasty. We have a Rita’s right next to my house, which isn’t bad. The best gelato I ever had, oddly, was in White Rock, BC.

          1. Okay, this is cool. I couldn’t remember the town or the name of the place I went to. So I just Google mapped Vancouver, then looked around near the U.S. border. Not only did I find the place–Dolce Gelato?–I found a street view and confirmed that it was the place my zooming in and checking out the inside. Man, technology can rule when it’s not used for evil things like threaded comments.

            1. If you’re reading this and saying to yourself, “You said it was in White Rock” in your previous comment, let me just say that I had only just started my dance down the coast of British Columbia. Friggin’ magic.

  25. Chicago pizza isn’t real pizza.

    1. It’s not even real Chicago.

  26. Have to agree with Epi re: Chicago pizza. Oddly enough, the best pizzas I ever had were when I lived in California: you can say plenty of bad things about them, but LA foodies do understand the importance of fresh ingredients.

    Since I moved to New England, though, I haven’t had pizza once. The availability of cheap shellfish and all.

    1. Okay, the thread can reunify here, as the–heh, heh–California pizza lover becomes enheapenfied with horrific and divinely justified abuse.

      1. Oh, whatever PL. Everybody knows unsalted whole wheat half-cooked-crust pizzas with organic dragonfruit, fair trade mung bean sprouts, and soy crumbles are the best sort of pizzas.

        1. What do you think Epi eats now? Smoked salmon pizza on gluten-free dough, with free-range tofu?

        2. The general rule about food in California is this: if they’re working within an actual cuisine, the fresh ingredients tend to make it pretty damn good. It’s when they try their “fusions”, or are unnaturally health-conscious, that food in CA becomes godawful crap.

          1. Fusion is usually only good when inadvertent or when it happens gradually, over time. Intentional fusion often provides infelicitous results.

      2. Fair enough. I’ve never grasped why people think NY thin-crust pizza is some sort of manna from heaven. And after two years in the Midwest I’m comfortable saying that I wouldn’t wipe my ass with the food there.

        1. I am wondering what Kosher pizza must be like. Does it exist anyplace besides New York and Miami? I couldn’t imagine it even being in Tel Aviv.

          1. The one time I tried Kosher pizza, my only thought was: Isn’t salt Kosher? Why do Jews hate their tongues so much?

            The upside was that the sauce was the same as the sauce base for shakshouka and managed to off-set the raw flour taste of the crust a little.

            1. Cheese and meat belong together. I never got the whole broad prohibition, anyway. Why not use goat cheese and beef? No danger of any seething of the young in its mother’s milk or whatever.

              Now a religion that forbade the combining of basil and tomato should be made illegal.

        2. Not a fan of lutefisk, I take it?

    2. Yeah, you haven’t lived until you’ve had a fresh carrot pizza, right?

    3. All I’m saying is that you should, just once, try a margherita pizza with fresh mozz, fresh tomatoes, and fresh basil. Just saying.

      1. I won’t touch it if it doesn’t have any fresh bean sprouts on it.

        1. That’s why his wife left him. Her allergy to vaginal sprouts kill their sex life.

      2. I don’t object to that, but it’s hardly a California thing.

      3. problem is, fresh tomatoes are good maybe 4 weeks out of the year. i have weekly pizza needs.

        dalle valle san marzanos are shockingly good. cento’s not bad, either.

  27. I took a shit in Chicago once. They scooped it up and put it on a pizza.

  28. Just a note to say that this thread must be the biggest threaded clusterfuck yet.

    1. Trying to revive the custard thread are you?

      1. I meant “post” and not “thread”, but you get the idea.

  29. I have a dream…I have a dream that, some day before I die, there will be peace in the middle east, medical science will find a cure for cancer, and people will stop arguing about what blasted pizza is better than the other!
    That’s all. I’ll now return to yelling at kids to stay away from my Begonias.

    1. You have an opinion on this issue, Johnny. You know you do.

    2. Hear! Hear! Can’t we just stick to the beer and coffee snobs? Hot dog and pizza snobs is a bit too much to take.

      1. fo’ realz.

        Snobbery over pizza?

        I’ll take a Papa John’s thin crust with a jalepeno topping to munch on while preparing this quail I’m making for Friday night dinner for two, you know, real food, raised, killed and skinned by your own means (okay, I traded two guinea hens for these two from my brother-in-law).

        Disappointed Epi, you didn’t move down to Raleigh or Cary instead
        of Seattle for your latest high tech job venture. I would have raised you some game fowl as a welcoming gift.

        1. Cary is very nice. My dad lives there.

    3. BTW, to settle the pizza issue, upside down pizza wins, hands down.

      Specifically from RichO’s in New Albany, IN, but in general too.

  30. There’s a lot of ass-wiping with pizzas mentioned in this thread. I wonder what that’s all about?

    1. Your abomination of a hot dog comment overshadowed all of that for me.

      1. Hey, my heresy is only on the topping, not on the dog.

        1. CLOSE ENOUGH! After hanging from the Water Tower until dead, dead, dead, your lifeless body will be on display in front of The Billygoat Tavern until it decayse into dust. Or they turn you into cheese burgers.

          1. Coke or Pepsi?

    2. Yeah, that sounds awfully counter-productive.

      How will you get the sausage bits and block olives out of your ass crack?

      1. Buy a dog.

        1. Well now, I wouldn’t need the pizza in the first place, then.

  31. For the record, there’s no such thing as bad pizza. Even shitty pizza is still pretty fucking good.

    1. Stop dreaming of Sandi.

    2. Never been to St. Louis, then have you?

      Cracker type crust with fucking nasty ass provel. Even if it has good sauce, and toppings, the crust and cheese ruin it extremely effectively.

      1. Yes, but it still tastes good. Get over your snobbery.

    3. if it is not good, it may not be pizza, but it is at least the idea of pizza.

    4. Japan’s pizza is horrible. They start with the ideal of California pizza and take it straight downhill from there. Crust was the consistency of warm pretzel dough, just way too chewy. The sauce was absolutely just tomato juice. The cheese was rank, and the toppings were bizarre. I spent 13 pizza-less years in that country. Just had to counter the no bad pizza statement.


    5. Pizza is bad when it makes you hurl. So, yes, there is bad pizza.

  32. More ‘Work’ for the President
    The Obama administration takes aim at climate scientists.

    By Patrick J. Michaels

    In the blame game, the Obama administration isn’t about to stop with Fox News. Instead, it’s moving on to lowly scientists.

    Last month, President Obama gave a somewhat chilling, if somewhat ignored, speech on climate change at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He stated that any scientific debate about the magnitude of global warming is unscrupulous, decrying “those who . . . make cynical claims that contradict the overwhelming scientific evidence when it comes to climate change, whose only purpose is to defeat or delay the change that we know is necessary.”

    Then, the president talked tough, saying, “We’ll just have to deal with those people,” language familiar to anyone who knows the vagaries of Chicago politics.


    1. sons-a-bitches are feelin the heat now!

  33. I see the threaded comments revolt is in full retreat.

  34. Nah, it’s just being fought in other threads. Never fight a two-thread war!

  35. If they could add an option to hide already read posts, or highlight new ones, or sort by post date, I’d be happy with the threaded posts. As is, although I didn’t fight the good fight in this thread, I really dislike the format.

  36. This post will serve as a warning to future generations not to thread comments.

    1. If they had only learned from our mistake!

      [Cue ominous Twilight Zone music–and not that shitty cover in the 80’s by the Dead]

  37. You’re all fuckin crazy!

    St. Louis pizza is the only real pizza.


    1. Fortunately, you’re not saying that St. Louis’s frozen custard is better than Milwaukee’s. (I’m surprised that no-one has mentioned, say, Ted Drewes, Silky’s, or Fritz’s.)

  38. It’s like reading a fucking roller-coaster.

    1. With cheese on top.

  39. fresh mozzerella

    Epi can jack off to that shit all he wants. Mozzerella (or any other cheese for that matter)can’t hold a candle to Provel.

  40. Missouri cheese? Prepare for a deluge of mockery.

  41. Warty,

    I’ve escaped from the labyrinthic offensiveness of threaded comments to show you Lee Roy Selmon’s menu. Here’s the hamburger, named after Lee Roy’s brother:

    Dewey’s Stacked Burger………………….9.49
    USDA “Choice” ground beef grilled over an open flame topped with
    bacon, cheddar cheese and mouth-watering pulled pork. Finished off
    with a drizzle of our famous Selmon’s House sauce. Served with lettuce
    and tomato.

    I really like the restaurant for those country food cravings I get every now and again. The chain is only in Florida, I think (part of the Outback family).

  42. And yet, the pizza debate continues…

    Thank God the automotive bailout finally resolved that “Chevy vs. Ford” thing.

    1. Ford. The American car for capitalists.

  43. Warty,

    Holy Mother of God! I just posted a link to the Lee Roy Selmon’s menu and pasted the description of the hamburger, only to be told that “Your comment appears to be spam. If it is not, a moderator will publish your comment later.”

    Do I dare try again?

    1. Wouldn’t that make it a spamburger?


  44. The spam filter has very poor taste.

  45. Wait, what was this post about again?

  46. Warty,

    Psst. Over here:

    Dewey’s Stacked Burger ($9.49)
    USDA “Choice” ground beef grilled over an open flame topped with
    bacon, cheddar cheese and mouth-watering pulled pork. Finished off
    with a drizzle of our famous Selmon’s House sauce. Served with lettuce and tomato.

  47. Pro Lib, I would happily kill 1,000 Tonys for a bite of that burger.

  48. If the Squirrel permits, I will post a link to the restaurant: Link to restaurant by long-term Hit & Run commenter who is not a spammer.

  49. I just tried to link to the restaurant and got accused of spam yet again.


  50. I’ve tried twice to post a link to the restaurant and got thrown to the moderators both times! WTF?

    Dude, you’re going to have to google “Lee Roy Selmon’s.”

    I’m getting pissed here, folks.

  51. “Pro Lib, I would happily kill 1,000 Tonys for a bite of that burger”

    I’d do it for nothin’.

  52. “Real” journalists are those who aren’t too critical of it. But America is not Cook County, and it’s doubtful that Americans will tolerate the Chicago Way when it comes to journalism.

  53. 1. Determine by LEGAL means if, indeed, THe Project is investigative Journalism OR an Investigative Agency.
    2. IF an investigative agency is determined, THEN you can subpoena notes,
    ELSE The Project CONTINUES to be a Legitimate News Agency AND you may NOT subpoena notes (unless libel/slander is apparent)

    This reminds me of how Copyright infringment is often “alleged”, as in the case of YouTube, they will pull down anything that is “alleged” as infringing rather than follow the LAW and WAIT until infringement is PROVEN in the courts (reading the Copyright Statute makes this clear enough; accusers MUST actually BE the Copyright Holder – 3rd parties not given agency don’t count)

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