In the Debate Over Rescission, No One Looks Good
In yesterday's Wall Street Journal, Scott Harrington had an important op-ed accusing Obama of misrepresenting several anecdotes about the insurance industry, particularly those that deal with the practice of rescission—revoking someone's insurance for a previous error or omission after the individual files a claim. With one partial exception, Harrington convincingly exposes Obama's untruths. But a close look at the anecdotes in question reveals a practice that I suspect most people will still find ugly.
Let's start with the exception. Harrington writes:
Later in his speech, the president used Alabama to buttress his call for a government insurer to enhance competition in health insurance. He asserted that 90 percent of the Alabama health-insurance market is controlled by one insurer, and that high market concentration "makes it easier for insurance companies to treat their customers badly—by cherry-picking the healthiest individuals and trying to drop the sickest; by overcharging small businesses who have no leverage; and by jacking up rates."
In fact, the Birmingham News reported immediately following the speech that the state's largest health insurer, the nonprofit Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Alabama, has about a 75% market share. A representative of the company indicated that its "profit" averaged only 0.6% of premiums the past decade, and that its administrative expense ratio is 7% of premiums, the fourth lowest among 39 Blue Cross and Blue Shield plans nationwide.
Harrington is right to note the absurdity of calling out Blue Cross Alabama for profit-minded stinginess. But Obama's claim about its market share seems basically reasonable to me. The line in question from Obama's speech reads: "Unfortunately, in 34 states, 75 percent of the insurance market is controlled by five or fewer companies. In Alabama, almost 90 percent is controlled by just one company."
But as TimesDaily.com reports, the 75 percent market share number doesn't include additional insurance programs run by the state's Blue Cross:
Koko Makin, vice president and corporate secretary for Blue Cross, said the company provides coverage for about 75 percent of consumers who have health insurance in Alabama. But Blue Cross also administers AllKids insurance for needy children and others not included in the official number.
The president's estimate is close to the American Medical Association's 2008 market share figure of 89 percent for BlueCross in Alabama.
Given this, I don't see any problem with Obama's claim that "almost 90 percent of the market is controlled" by a single company.
The anecdotes Obama uses to talk about rescission, however, are inexcusablely misleading. Here's the key section from Obama's speech:
One man from Illinois lost his coverage in the middle of chemotherapy because his insurer found that he hadn't reported gallstones that he didn't even know about. They delayed his treatment, and he died because of it. Another woman from Texas was about to get a double mastectomy when her insurance company canceled her policy because she forgot to declare a case of acne. By the time she had her insurance reinstated, her breast cancer more than doubled in size.
These anecdotes come from Senate testimony given by Peggy Raditz and Robin Beaton. As Harrington notes, Raditz's testimony reveals that though her brother's insurance was revoked, it was reinstated under orders from the state AG after Raditz, a lawyer, contacted the AG's office. And in fact, her brother did receive the treatment he needed in the appropriate window, and following the treatment, he lived for an additional three and a half years. Obama's statement that "they delayed his treatment, and he died because of it," is plainly false.
Beaton's testimony reveals a somewhat more complex story. Soon after obtaining an individual insurance policy, Beaton was diagnosed with breast cancer. She was cleared for surgery, but an insurance company investigation was triggered when, during an acne examination, a doctor mistakenly wrote something on her chart indicating that she was precancerous. Her insurance was canceled, but after assistance from her local representative, it was eventually reinstated. She got the surgery she needed, but a few months later than planned. In other words, the primary problem wasn't that she forgot to declare a case of acne, as Obama claimed, but that a doctor made a mistake (or perhaps miscommunicated).
But what's notable about both these cases is that even when you get the facts right, as Obama failed to do, they still portray rescission as a deeply unpleasant practice. In the first case, the patient was only treated in time because his sister was a lawyer who managed to get assistance from the AG. In the second case, the woman's treatment was delayed for months, and only went through after pressure from her Congressional representative.
Investigating claimants is critical to maintaining a functioning insurance market. Individuals do occasionally knowingly lie about their health, and if insurance companies lacked the ability to protect against such applicants, there would be little incentive for anyone to buy health insurance until they got sick. The system would quickly break down.
In other words, this is one of those issues in which everyone comes out looking bad: Obama's untruths are inexcusable, but the insurance companies come off as bullying, callous, and reluctant to pay for reasonable claims. As for the bigger question of what's actually the right policy, I'll admit I'm not entirely sure. Harrington and insurance executives argue that it's vitally necessary. Tyler Cowen thinks it's a "significant moral wrong." But I suspect it really doesn't matter. The optics weigh against the industry, and in battles between politics and policy, policy rarely wins.
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Ummm.....,
What is the system's market share when we're all on a single payer system?
Given this, I don't see any problem with Obama's claim that "almost 90% of the market is controlled" by a single company.
Did they get there by competition in a free market, or by regulations suppressing competition?
!,
We don't have a free market. We have a highly complex, highly regulated mish-mash of public and private care with insurance companies and the middlemen and employers as the gatekeepers. So no.
But that's neither here nor there. My narrow point is that Obama's statistic seems fine to me.
My narrow point is that Obama's statistic seems fine to me.
I agree on your narrow point. I am here to ask the tough question that the MSM won't ask 😉
Frankly, I could give a damn about the statistics. What should be part of the discussion, but isn't, is that regulations minimize the number of insurance providers and therefore minimizes competition. If Obama and his crew is serious about wanting to increase competition, take down the regulations that prevent it.
Then, let the games begin and let the consumers rake in the benefits of it.
Well the way preexisting conditions work with cars is usually that you take the car in to an inspection station, and the insurance company has it looked over, and then any existing damage that they record is not covered. But if they miss something, it's their own damn fault.
It could work similarly for medical insurance. You go an get a physical at the start of your coverage, and report the names of previous doctors (electronic medical records might help with this). After they've collected your medical records and gotten your physical, they can exclude coverage for specific things.
Exceptions for (say) deliberate efforts to hide preexisting conditions.
Individuals do occasionally knowingly lie about their health,
Occasionally?
When the state runs health care, where will you turn to file a complaint?
I suppose that won't be a problem, because Obamacare will never turn you down for anything ever.
Hazel, I don't think that's really workable...
"Mr. Bloggs, InsurCo has read the report of your physical examination, and we're pleased to tell you that your policy has been approved. Of course, we will not cover any treatment related to your brain tumor.... Oh, you didn't know about the brain tumor?... Well, you should see an oncologist about that. On your own dime.... Thank you for choosing InsurCo, and have a great day."
The *bad* thing about Alabama is that the market is dominated by a single non-profit?
The solution is ... a single non-profit?
WTF?
Suderman:
Rescission is a necessary evil, as the op-ed pointed out. Without it, insurers would either have prohibitive application processing costs due to medical underwriting, or the costs would rise as more fraudulent claims would go through. It has to do with the difference between type I and type II errors (false positives and false negatives). If you seek to decrease one, you will almost asuredly increase the other.
By the way, I still think Obama's point about BCBSAL is wrong. He was saying that monopoly-type market shares lead to abuse, and he cited BCBSAl as an example. But as Harrington points out, they have incredibly low loss ratios and a high level of policyholder satisfaction. Obama's "Math" doesn't add up.
syskill,
Then self insure and leave the rest of us out of it.
"Blue Cross also administers AllKids insurance for needy children"
Given this, I don't see any problem with Obama's claim that "almost 90% of the market is controlled" by a single company.
The problem is that the AllKids program is a state run insurance program that Alabama has decided would be better run if they outsourced it to Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Alabama. Knowing this, the argument becomes, because the government is not able to administer a health insurance plan as well as a third party insurer the government needs to step in and provide insurance.
In Minnesota, insurance companies are forbidden by law to earn a profit. They must operate as not-for-profit. If Obama wants to see how to operate a health care system effectively, he should haul his ass to Minnesota.
Oh wait, he was just here last Saturday. Guess he should have done more while he was here than just show up, give a propaganda speech at the Target Center and leave.
"Obama's statement that "they delayed his treatment, and he died because of it," is plainly false."
RACIST!
Obama's untruths are inexcusable, but the insurance companies come off as bullying, callous, and reluctant to pay for reasonable claims.
You'd probably be bullying, callous and reluctant to pay for reasonable claims too if you generally didn't have to compete for your customers (or, to the extent that you did compete, it wasn't for the consumer's business but rather the consumer's boss's business). While it's certainly not a panacea, it seems to me that having individuals actually choose their insurance provider would give the industry more pause before engaging in tactics that may be technically legal but certainly troubling to most consumers.
syskill, your worst case scenario is one in which a patient has an illness which would otherwise go undiagnosed and whose prognosis strongly depends on early detection, and he gets it diagnosed? Decouple insurance from employment so that people can more easily avoid non-coverage periods in between switching insurers, and that doesn't sound half bad to me.
(coincidentally, I just got approved for my first life insurance policy this morning based on good results from a free blood/urine screening...)
A public option ( yeah, yeah, I know-- that's dead... for now... kind of... maybe) might actually increase the instances of recission. If a private insurer can drop a patient knowing that if they do, they'll fall into the warm bosom of the public plan, these companies may be emboldened in their recission practices.
!,
What does "self-insure" even mean? Mr. Bloggs' treatment for his brain tumor is likely to cost him more than he could possibly have saved for the proverbial rainy day. That's why insurance companies exist in the first place: they turn catastrophic risks to individual subscribers into affordable risks to all subscribers.
The point that I was trying to make is that this is just a rescission with the timeline reversed. Instead of selling Bloggs a junk policy and finding some pretext to rescind it when he gets cancer, InsurCo tells him that he has cancer and then tries to sell him a junk policy that won't cover his treatment.
Why not just go after the real price gougers- doctors and hospitals?
Why not just go after the real price gougers- doctors and hospitals?
The doctors and hospitals are 'price gouging' to make up for all the mandated care, uninsured and low-ball government reimbursments and general government interference which produces perverse incentives.
There's no one place in the system where one can say "a-ha! Here's where the fault is!"
Peter, are there any reliable data on how much rescission occurs?
If you but an insurance policy for a car that already has a broken air conditioner, the policy will not cover repairs on that air conditioner, but it may cover tire repairs.
Similarly, if a man has a brain tumor before the date of a health insurance policy, treatment of the tumor will not be covered; treatment of heart attacks will be covered .
I can understand if Lasik costs $10,000, and spinal cord cybernetic implant surgery costs $30,000.
But why should a tablet of aspirin cost $5? That is price gouging, and there ought to be a law against that.
"Mr. Bloggs, InsurCo has read the report of your physical examination, and we're pleased to tell you that your policy has been approved. Of course, we will not cover any treatment related to your brain tumor.... Oh, you didn't know about the brain tumor?... Well, you should see an oncologist about that. On your own dime.... Thank you for choosing InsurCo, and have a great day."
Well, at least you KNOW about the brain tumor now.
I don't see this as necessarily unworkable. 90% of the time an introductory physical isn't going to turn up anything you didn't already know about. At least not anything catestrophic like a brain tumor.
And if it does, then you are at least informed about something you didn't know about. And it's one reason not to let your insurance lapse. If you are still paid on the previous policy, then you can get them to cover it.
Note: I also think insurance companies should have to cover all costs for anything that starts on their policy. You shouldn't have to keep paying premiums after you get brain cancer - they should have to pay up for everything related to that illness even if you find it on the last month of coverage.
I am here to ask the tough question that the MSM won't ask 😉
viddy, plz.
But why should a tablet of aspirin cost $5? That is price gouging, and there ought to be a law against that.
No it's not. A tablet of asprin is $5 because of the general overhead. Your card-carrying SEIU nurse that handed you the aspirin is likely making six figures or damn close to it. Add in the Doctor's salaries plus agency costs, plus technolgoy, equipment, IT overhead. A hospital is a damned expensive operation. The $5 for the aspirin keeps your LASIK from costing $20,000.
What does "self-insure" even mean?
Look, mister rhetorical, it looks like you already know what it means. Just because he wasted his money on food and hookers hybrid cars doesn't make it my problem. Flee to your Nation/Slate reading group before you get any farther out of your depth.
If you but an insurance policy for a car that already has a broken air conditioner, the policy will not cover repairs on that air conditioner, but it may cover tire repairs.
Similarly, if a man has a brain tumor before the date of a health insurance policy, treatment of the tumor will not be covered; treatment of heart attacks will be covered .
Well, the cases above seems to imply that insurers are dropping all coverage because they find a preexisting condition for something else. (i.e gallstones/chemo).
Which is wrong. But the problem is that the "customer" never reads his own insurance policy, cause he's getting it through an employer or some government program. So there's no competitive pressure on insurance companies to offer coverage that really treats long-term illnesses. Instead, because employers are paying the premiums, the competitive pressure is to provide coverage that drops as soon as you are too sick to work.
Sounds like Obama was "rescission" to be his version of "death panels". The only real difference, I guess, is that rescission exists. Insurance companies devote enormous resources to getting out of paying claims. I was an insurance defense lawyer for a few years, and they are serious about denying claims.
I was an insurance defense lawyer for a few years, and they are serious about denying claims.
Of course they are. With all the coverage mandates they're saddled with, they're going to jettison absolutely anything they don't absolutely have to pay for.
With all these anecdotes about rescission, it is surprising that there had never been a case where one resorted to murder in response to a wrongful rescission.
!,
Are you self-insuring? If so, then I salute you -- you're truly living the American dream. If not, then you're basically asserting moral superiority over Mr. Bloggs by virtue of not having an undiagnosed asymptomatic brain tumor before signing up with your most recent insurer. And not buying hybrid cars, or something.
Why can't someone refute my fake anecdote?
There is no individual medical underwriting for group policies.
Rescissions only occur when the insured, as an applicant, materially misrepresents his health, the policy is issued in reliance on those false statements or omissions, and the insurer later realizes, after a claim by the insured, that it would not have issued the coverage had it known the true facts. That's why the contract is rescinded-- premiums are returned and it is as if the policy never came into existence.
In most states, rescissions only occur within the first two years of the policy issuance. After two years, only willfully false statements may be challenged. Some states mandate that the false/omitted condition be related to the claim that triggered the investigation; others allow any material condition to trigger a rescission.
People do play games with coverage, not buying into the risk pool until they are sick, then seeking to have the rest of the people in the risk pool cover their known losses. Companies do screw up and some are too aggressive on rescissions.
Insurance is pooled risk. People who try to scam the system by not getting coverage until they are sick are pissing in the risk pool. That is why premiums can and do increase even if the majority of the poeple in the pool never made a claim. Losses are aggregated, and premiums are adjusted accordingly after each policy year. If your insurer does not protect the pool, that sick dude who misrepresented his health condition to get into your pool gets his bills paid by you.
Insurance isn't the right model for most health care. That it (or approaches patterned after insurance) have come to dominate health care is at the heart of our problem. I don't want the person who approves and funds my health care to be the person who is BETTING AGAINST ME. The interests should be aligned so that the people involved with and responsible for my health care do better when I do better -- when I am healthier, live longer, or are saved from untimely death or disability, for example.
It is hard for me to see any better way to "align interests" than by having the patient be responsible for choosing providers and procedures, and paying for treatment and products received. If that is the best way to achieve the goal, then the corollary goal should be to increase availability of medical goods and services, while lowering prices and fees to their minima.
We need an approach to health care that has the above profile. Why is nothing like that on the table?
The $5 for the aspirin keeps your LASIK from costing $20,000.
Um, no. Lasik is cheap (and getting cheaper) because people by and large pay for it out of their own pocket and therefore have incentive to shop around. And plenty of businesses (not hospitals) make a profit performing Lasik procedures, even at these relatively low prices.
There's no one place in the system where one can say "a-ha! Here's where the fault is!"
_____________________________________________
Yes there is. One can see it in the insurance regulations and state mandates that creates dislocations in the insurance market, the tax code that favors "cadillac plans" that insulate policyholders from the true costs of insurance, anti-competition laws that protect the medical profession and hospitals at the expense of health care consumers, and the restrictions on mutually-agreed-upon malpractice liability contracts between patients and their doctors. Only one institution is dumb enough and powerful enough to bring this perfect shit-storm together and that is the government.
This is something where the results of the market don't look very good -- and yes yes I know, there is all kinds of government regulation in said "market" and the real story may be more complicated than anecdotes reveal, etc. etc.
There's no libertarian argument for paying for a service and then reneging when it's time to deliver.
Here's what I don't understand: why aren't the bastards getting sued? As juicy as this is for political manipulation, it seems like it would be a trial lawyers dream to go before a jury and play their heartstrings on this. Since Americans seem more than willing to compensate people who burn themselves after carrying coffee between their knees, or awarding $7 million for a bad car paint job... no enterprising trial lawyer has figured this one out?
(And yes, I know that the jury-damages-out-of-control anecdotes are also exaggerations)
Are you self-insuring?
No.
If so, then I salute you -- you're truly living the American dream.
Go back to the kids table.
If not, then you're basically asserting moral superiority over Mr. Bloggs by virtue of not having an undiagnosed asymptomatic brain tumor before signing up with your most recent insurer. And not buying hybrid cars, or something.
No, I am telling you and your Nazi buddies to stay the hell out of my wallet. Imchi.
What are the regulations that prevent a free market in health care?
Isn't it funny that Big Government Supporters always have to resort to outlandish, wholly-invented hypotheticals to illustrate a "real world problem".
If it's a real-world problem, find a real world anecdote.
Hazel Meade wrote, "But the problem is that the 'customer' never reads his own insurance policy, cause he's getting it through an employer or some government program."
Of course, the "customer" is encouraged to read the policy, and I have done so many times over the years. I must admit, however, that 1) the fine print is invariably intimidating; 2) usually my practical choices are not between several pleasant options, but rather between having coverage or not. So the only time I really care about what my policy says is when I need to make a claim and the insurance company gives me a hard time. This knowledge is most useful in deciding whether or not to seek pre-approval to see a specialist, or undergo a particular procedure or therapy. It is rarely important to me when I am initially making elections. I suspect that my story is fairly common.
Maybe trial lawyers are more interested working on lawsuits for $5 million dollars over a pair of pants.
Why not just go after the real price gougers- doctors and hospitals?
How about we go after certificates of need that restrict competition. How about we go after the regulations that limit the number of med students admitted each year, which restricts competition in the medical field.
And as for the $5 aspirin, keep in mind that this is a single dose aspirin, that was handled by a phramacy tech, if not a phramcist, and is checked at multiple stages to make sure it is, indeed, an aspirin. There's a lot of handling that goes into that, and that's not counting the fact that it's individually packaged.
# zo | September 15, 2009, 2:00pm | #
# What are the regulations that prevent a free
# market in health care?
For starters, the licensing and drug/device approval regimens serve to constrain supply of providers and goods. They severely distort the market away from true free-market behavior, as they defeat the key price-controlling forces of competition and innovation/substitution.
Next, because we have come to associate health INSURANCE to health care access, many alternative approaches to providing health care are classified as forms of insurance and are regulated by the corresponding bureaucracies -- which often act as gatekeepers, deciding who can and cannot play the game. For instance, in New York, a doctor tried to establish a subscription-based pre-paid health-care service, similar to the way that gyms like 24 hour fitness or services such as Netflix give you essentially unlimited access to their facilities for a monthly fee. He was labeled "Dr. Do Good" by the popular media, I believe. Anyway, the State insurance authority slapped him down because, by THEIR definition of insurance, his health care approach was a form of insurance, and he wasn't a licensed and approved provider of insurance.
I've got a million of 'em. Shall I go on? Maybe others can chime in, too.
Um, no. Lasik is cheap (and getting cheaper) because people by and large pay for it out of their own pocket and therefore have incentive to shop around.
I was merely using the example that the OP gave me. Replace LASIK with knee replacement, or gall bladder surgery etc. However, you bring up an excellent point. When people are responsible for their own costs (ie, they take ownership of the cost), the market works much more efficiently.
Here is an interesting blog I ran into. Someone with a known medical problem. Competes in marathons that exacerbate the problem and cause him to be admitted to the hospital. Then posts the bills online so the rest of us know how much it is costing to subsidize his hobby.
http://breathinstephen.com/category/medical/asthma/hospitalization-for-asthma/hospital-bills/
Why not just go after the real price gougers- doctors and hospitals?
Hospitals typically run margins in the low single digits, in a good year. How they can be "price gouging" at those margins, I couldn't say.
But why should a tablet of aspirin cost $5? That is price gouging, and there ought to be a law against that.
Well, the answer to that is in the post you were supposedly replying to. Massive cost shifting within the hospital . . . .
What proof do you have that such regulations exist?
James Anderson Merrit,
Yes, thanks, please do go on if you don't mind. I'm trying to write a paper on it for school so looking for help anywhere.
What are the regulations that prevent a free market in health care?
1. Insurance companies are not permitted to compete across state lines. (Thats why we have Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Alabama, and not just one, nationwide, Blue Cross and Blue Shield.
2. Tax breaks for employers who offer insurance, makes it cheaper for people to get insurance through an employer instead of buying it themselves. That limits the employees choices, and skews the market to service employers needs instead of the individuals.
3. Regulations capping relative premium levels so that low-risk individuals carry more of the cost relative to high risk individuals, making insurance a bad deal for low-risk people and causing them to drop out of the system.
4. Medicare and other government programs where a third party pays for all health care costs sucking up resources and generating demand for excessive and unnecessary procedures. People are not stingy when they are spending someone elses money.
Overall, the biggest problem is that currently, with the government and employment-based plans dominating coverage, the customer is virtually entirely insulated from the costs of medical care, so there is no downward pressure on prices coming from patients. The only cost cutting comes from either state rationing, or insurance companies. And their decision making is disconnected from the patients interests, so you get these situations where a bureaucrat in a government agency or insurance company steps in and then makes these arbitrary judgement about what will be paid for.
A hospital is a damned expensive operation. The $5 for the aspirin keeps your LASIK from costing $20,000.
This is the point that anyone who isn't is health care for a living refuses to believe. And it's also the point that people IN health care for a living want you believe is justifiable.
We need an approach to health care that has the above profile. Why is nothing like that on the table?
Because it's racist.
Um, no. Lasik is cheap
Um, you're missing the forest for the tree. Replace LASIK with "hip replacement" and the point stands.
Hospitals typically run margins in the low single digits, in a good year. How they can be "price gouging" at those margins, I couldn't say.
Yes. After all the bonuses are paid.
Massive cost shifting within the hospital . . . .
Why isn't Blue Cross Blue Shield operating hospitals?
Um, you're missing the forest for the tree. Replace LASIK with "hip replacement" and the point stands.
Are you really arguing that $5 aspirins have done anything to keep down the prices of hip replacements/cancer surgeries/etc? My point (the forest, if you will) is that the same underlying systemic flaws cause the bureaucratic waste and cost-shifting that hyper-inflates the cost of both that aspirin and all other medical care (EXCEPT those that aren't typically covered by insurance policies).
P.S.: You're right that starting a sentence with "Um, ..." was unnecessarily snarky. A bad habit that I'm trying to break.
As a former health insurance underwriter who has dealt with many, many lies on insurance applications: So, you think it's ugly to deny claims by people who have knowingly lied on their applications for coverage?
What's the alternative? If you lie, and no one catches you for a few months, you're scot-free?
Can you say moral hazard? Kinda like the bank bailouts?
Yes. After all the bonuses are paid.
Obama got a promise from the healthcare industry that they weren't going to get any pay increases and the like...
Why isn't Blue Cross Blue Shield operating hospitals?
Because they're in the insurance business, not the hospital business?
And it's also the point that people IN health care for a living want you believe is justifiable
It is justifiable. I think you're arguing whether it's reasonable or not. The cost structure is justifiable because the hospital margins are tight. The hospital I'm working for is currently losing money.
Where are the costs? Yeah, probably in Doctors and SEIU nurses salaries. But if you're losing money while charging $5 for an asprin it's not a stretch to 'justify' the $20,000 for the hip replacement.
Hospitals typically run margins in the low single digits, in a good year. How they can be "price gouging" at those margins, I couldn't say.
Yes. After all the bonuses are paid.
The festival of ignorance about hospitals just won't quit. The cost basis for hospitals is massive. The percentage of that cost of senior management is pretty small. The percentage of the percentage that might be represented by bonuses is even smaller. The number of non-profit hospitals that don't pay bonuses at all is quite large.
So, anyone who says that hospital margins are so low because of the bonuses they pay their staff is a complete fucking idiot.
"Where are the costs? Yeah, probably in Doctors and SEIU nurses salaries."
While not in the healthcare industry, I have had the good fortune of working with senior management for a multi-billion dollar company. I've had the joy of attending countless financial oversight meetings looking closely at where those billions of dollars are going.
The thing I suspect that what cost hospitals the most wouldn't be payroll, it would be things like building maintenance (building upkeep, heating/cooling, electricity, water, etc.), possibly taxes, medical equipment, IT needs (computers and support), pharmacology costs and whatnot. I would be surprised if payroll even ate up 10% of O&M.
zo,
State mandates is a big one.
Back in the 90s, when I was in my 20s, I had a dirt cheap catastrophic insurance policy. No HSA or anything to go along with it, just a high deductible policy. Which was okay, it didnt cost much and I dont go to the doctor, so it was win-win. I was covered if I came down with something nasty or was injured badly and they werent going to have to pay out anything unless that happened.
Then the state of KY "reformed" insurance. And my plan was declared illegal. For my new plan, my deductible dropped greatly and covered a lot more stuff than my previous plan did. And I payed a lot more for it.
Insurance company wins (they still never had to pay me anything) and I lose. All because of state regulation of policies.
You're much faster, RC. Must be that Ivy League education. 😉
I would be surprised if payroll even ate up 10% of O&M.
As an employee of a major health organization, I would imagine payroll eats around the same amount of the O&M as it does with any other business: much, much more than 10%.
"As an employee of a major health organization, I would imagine payroll eats around the same amount of the O&M as it does with any other business: much, much more than 10%."
Then you've got far too many people on your payroll.
I've been doing some quick browsing, an example hospital I found reports 61% of budget goes to salaries with nurses making up three-quarters of the employees who earned at least $100,000.
Here: http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/ci_7532140
Not claiming to be an expert in hospital expenses, but as someone who knows something about global hospital payments, I imagine a lot of the problem is how much a hospital receives for a given service. Usually is it contracted with the insurance companies for a specific payment for "hip replacement operating room." Well, if something goes unusual and it costs the hospital additional time in that room, additional anesthesia, additional power and supplies, additional nursing to cover the longer time, etc, the global fee may be insufficient.
You might say, well it's just a hip replacement, so it probably is standard of X time. Well, Dick Schapp died from the complications during his hip replacement. I imagine his insurance still only paid the global fee, but there were most certainly additional expenses beyond the norm. Additional expenses may occur from time to time, but it is probably far more rare for less than normal time or supplies to be used in any procedure of which the global fee is set.
Then you've got far too many people on your payroll.
Barack is fixing that.
You know who else looks bad? The right wing noise machine, including the WSJ. And also, you Reason guys too! If you were really Libertarian you'd do your homework. But you don't. You're all just Republicans, you all love the part line.
Allow me to elucidate. We have been hearing 0.5% recission since this summer. This seems like a small number. However, this is provably misleading, as recission is not practiced on insured who pay premiums and make no or only small claims - recission only happens to insured who suffer catastrophic illness. Individual policies are only sold to healthy people with no preexisting conditions. The rate of catastrophic illness in a pre-selected healthy population is low. A recission rate of 0.5% could be EVERYONE who makes a substantial claim! Easily, it could be MOST of them. It comes down to conditional probability - you have to look at the rate of recission among insured who make large claims, not at the overall risk pool! This argument was made by Taunter on his blog back in July. It got quite a bit of propagation and discussion.
Now it's September and this counterargument is just ignored. The same 0.5% stuff is repeated and repeated - the conditional probability aspect is not refuted, it's likely true and therefore cannot be easily refuted - so it's simply ignored. Ignoring a valid counterargument is a cynical media maneuver. It works because the WSJ's audience (and, apparently, Reason's) only consumes media with such a bias that the counterargument was never recognized in the first place.
In the end, it's pure rhetoric, pure intellectual dishonesty. You just don't GET to keep repeating yourself if you've been proven wrong! Not if you have any respect for logic and reason.
I expect this from Republicans. But from Reason, from Libertarians - it makes me think that you are no Libertarians at all. You're Republicans with costumes. Like, anybody here know Jews for Jesus? They're Baptists who dress up in Jew costumes to evangelize Jews. I think that most Libertarians are just dressed up Republicans these days.
And you have to watch that, or your movement will be hurt. There's a huge amount of anger against the whole Bush years thing. You may not notice. You think Teabaggers are the angry guys? How about the huge population who got their asses into the voting booth and voted for a Black guy named Hussein! That is, if you missed it, a complete Fuck-You-Bush lesson. So be Libertarians and not Bushies, if you want to stay around. Thanks.
Be honest Libertarians. Engage counterarguments. Explore logical debate and reasoned solutions. Don't be part of pipelines of messages and strategies. You lose if you do that.
I expect this from Republicans. But from Reason, from Libertarians - it makes me think that you are no Libertarians at all.
Trollumination. I take it you didn't read the blogpost?
Providing a mechanism for insurers to protect themselves from fraud by their customers is necessary. The question is to what extent recission is being used to prevent fraud and to what extent it is being used to commit fraud.
Paul - why yes, I did read the blogpost. I found it interesting. Yet, it did not mention this key point which invalidates many of the numbers that Harrington puts out like a squid emits ink! I agree that recission looks bad, and will likely be regulated heavily for perceived moral reasons, and that this will put yet another nail in the coffin of the actuarial insurance model for healthcare purchases. I'm not disagreeing with this conclusion.
What I am disagreeing with is the idea that the recission practiced is necessary and vital to the marketplace. Perhaps in cases of true fraud, yes, it may be valid. However, if EVERYONE who makes a large claim gets recissed, then - - - it's not part of keeping costs down, because the insurance is worthless in the first place! And there's nothing to feel bad about if this business model goes away!
And so far, no one has stepped up and disputed the argument that 0.5% in fact represents a substantial portion of the insured who make CLAIMS! So the insurance being sold just wasn't insurance. It may have gotten people more affordable prices on office visits and the like, but as it just disappeared when used to defray a catastrophic risk, it was never insurance. And the whole thing has been fraudulent, these individual policies being sold are pure junk and never have been anything else. Harrington tries to pretend they're real, he is aided and abetted by a compliant media pipeline. And I'm just sad to see Reason involved.
Concern troll is concerned. Ever notice that the concern troll always shows up at about 3:30?
What I am disagreeing with is the idea that the recission practiced is necessary and vital to the marketplace. Perhaps in cases of true fraud, yes, it may be valid. However, if EVERYONE who makes a large claim gets recissed, then
This would be perfectly valid... if it were true. But it's not. You're using superlatives like EVERYONE! Do you know anyone with a serious disease that didn't get dropped by their insurance? I know several, so on its face, your assertion is false.
You provided an interesting point-- that .5% recission might make up a disproportionate percentage of people with serious diseases-- something that I can't dispute. But then you wander off into conspiracy land and, well, you kind of lose us and come off as someone who's never spent five minutes reading Reason or engaging with its bloggers and commenters.
I'm assuming that you at least subconsciously noted the introspection about recission in the original post? That recission comes off as looking ugly especially when Harrington notes that the worst cases were only addressed when public officials get involved? I'd say that's a pretty honest approach to the question.
@Nick
Interesting take on the global charges. The last time I was part of a negotiation between a hospital and an insurance company the agreement was based on billed charges, not a set amount per service. If memory is correct what was agreed to was 35% of billed charges, some services were exempt but the majority were covered under that agreement.
This whole post is one long false equivalency.
On the one hand, Obama got some basic facts wrong but was absolutely right in his point and his conclusions even after considering the corrected factual record.
On the other hand -- even when the facts are properly repeated the insurance company is still completely in the wrong -- If I gotta get lawyers, the AG or a congressperson involved to make my insurance company back down and provide the benefits I am entitled to then that insurance company is acting in a fraudulent and dishonest manner and is completely in the wrong. *THAT* is fucking inexcusable.
Jesus, you can sense the pain it took for corporate whore Suderman to even admit that the APPEARANCE of the insurance companies actions might "look bad" -- but he still can't come right out and actually criticize the actions themselves and admit that what the insurance companies do re rescission is inexcusable.
So to summarize :
Getting SOME of the facts wrong while getting the point correct is "inexcusable"
Fucking over your sick customers when they need the benefits they are entitled to the most and only living up to their commitment when there is a threat of enforcement or fines or regulatio -- that merely "looks bad" and is simply a perception problem.
Suck that corporate cock some more glibertarians. When you have to dig the bottom of the barrel and pull "libertarian" contributers and "thinkers" from the pathetic NRO's bench it's no wonder your "movement" is less viable than the fucking LaRouchies and the Greenies.
Suck that corporate cock some more glibertarians.
We just might if we could wrench it from Obama's mouth. But with the death grip he and the Dems have on it? Not gonna happen.
I finally thought up a solution that will work.
It will make libertarians happy and it will make conservatives happy.
1. Deregulate health insurance...take away all of the regulations.
2. Create a Socialized PUBLIC PLAN which is completely voluntary and libertarians/conservatives can stay out of them...if they wish. This plan will be taxed at a high rate...however, it will cover all.
3. Tax ONLY those people that selected the PUBLIC PLAN. The Libertarians/conservatives can keep their current insurance or choose not to have insurance at all.
4. Remove ALL restrictions from hospitals/doctors from having to treat anyone that doesn't have insurance. That is, if you don't have medicare, medicaid, the public plan, or private insurance...you cannot get any treatment....including emergency treatment.
5. Anyone who opted not to take the Socialized PUBLIC PLAN will NOT be allowed into the plan for LIFE.
This whole post is one long false equivalency...
Two and a half trolls. I'd give you three and a half, but you were wordy.
Fucking over your sick customers when they need the benefits they are entitled to the most and only living up to their commitment when there is a threat of enforcement or fines or regulatio -- that merely "looks bad" and is simply a perception problem.
As numerous commnters in this thread have pointed out, insurance companies would be much less likely to fuck over their sick customers if their customers were actually buying and reading their insurance policies themselves, instead of having the government or their employer do it for them.
Ever heard the phrase "You get what you pay for?"
4. Remove ALL restrictions from hospitals/doctors from having to treat anyone that doesn't have insurance. That is, if you don't have medicare, medicaid, the public plan, or private insurance...you cannot get any treatment....including emergency treatment.
How does banning doctors and hospitals from treating people without "insurance" count as "removing" a restriction.
How about this: Remove all reastrictions on doctors and hospitals, such that they ARE NOT FORCED to treat anyone who is or is not on any plan, including the PUBLIC plan. The doctor is permitted to treat only those patients who pay for treatments at mutually agreed upon prices, and he can accept the payments offered by the public plan, or by uninsured patients, if he so chooses, of his own free will.
Er ... the doctor is permitted to only treat
i.e. if the doctor doesn't want to treat someone, he doesn't have to, but he IS FREE TO take payments from anyone he wants and treat anyone he wants, including fee-for-service patients who are paying from wads of cash in their sock drawer if he feels like it.
Why not make wrongful rescission a capital crime?
Why not make wrongful rescission a capital crime?
Because it is not really a crime. It may call for a civil action by the customer, but we still don't have debtors prison in america.
5. Anyone who opted not to take the Socialized PUBLIC PLAN will NOT be allowed into the plan for LIFE.
This reminds me of the modest proposal of second-class citizenship.
"Providing a mechanism for insurers to protect themselves from fraud by their customers is necessary. The question is to what extent recission is being used to prevent fraud and to what extent it is being used to commit fraud."
It could be restricted to cases where there was a finding of criminal insurance fraud.
zo - This week is pretty busy for me, so i don't know how much help I will be able to be, but you shouldn't accept the word of myself or anyone else who has posted to you here for the purposes of your paper. Your teacher wants to see the results of YOUR OWN RESEARCH, including citations. You can't cite me or other guys on this thread in a paper (or if you can, your teacher is asleep at the wheel). It is also unrealistic to expect everyone here to provide you with citations that are precise enough for a paper. You need to dig up and confirm your own facts. As I have citations at hand, I will try to provide them, but my intent was simply to describe the various situations that I knew of, which addressed your concerns. They can point you in productive directions for your own research, but -- like Cliff notes -- not SUBSTITUTE for your own research.
I'm married to a teacher and know about their tricky ways to find out if you did your own work, and what can happen if they learn otherwise. So beware! 🙂
Paul - I do know people who've had serious illnesses covered by insurance. However, it's pretty much been the standard group policy purchased through employment or trade organization, or public programs such as VA. I have not known anyone on an individual policy who made a large claim - likely due to the stringent pre-screening and relative rarity of such plans. If you have, feel free to post. Anecdotes ain't data but sometimes they're all we have. By 'large claims' I mean, of course, large relative to an annual premium. Like I said before, $1000 or so isn't much out of a $6000 policy.
If there is evidence of widespread failure of individual plans to pay substantial claims - and there is, although Harrington disingenously refuses to even attempt to admit it - then they are fraudulent. Fraudulent insurers can drive out honest ones by offering lower rates - and likely already have. I understand that Libertarian ideals say that such plans are the way to go - but if the market is not providing honest plans then something needs to be done! Regulation is not a bad thing at all, if it provides transparency. Markets must be transparent and honest, this is a prerequisite for them to work. Suppose you went to a store, the cashier accepted your payment, and refused you your goods - there are mechanisms to prevent this. It's a system of law and order that makes markets possible in the first place! And no honest Libertarian would call the legal mechanisms that prevent such behavior by cashiers 'government regulation' to be condemned ideologically - they're part of a market. Like water is to a fishery.
Harrington is a corporate propagandist. Repost his stuff with a non-critical eye, ignore his fallacies, then you become part of the pipeline, carrying messages, carrying talking points. News flash - the Republicans lost. Not good allies!
For companies, it means that they don't contract with an insurance company but instead spread out the risks among their employees themselves. It's becoming more popular at larger corporations.
Incidentally, if you include companies that self-insure as part of the insurance market and controlled by them, then the percentage of Alabama's health insurance market controlled by the nonprofit BC/BC of Alabama drops from around 90% to more like 30-40%. (Most of them do contract out outside third party administrators, but handle the financial risk sharing themselves.)
HEALTH CARE FOR ALL INCLUDING ILLIGAL IMMIRGANTS.WHY BECAUSE USA IS SPOKESMEN OF THE WORLD.FUCK WALL STEEET GIVE TO THE POOR.
WERE SO SCREWED UP WITH ARE SO CALLED CAPILISM THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING HUNGRY EVERY DAY. BUT WALL STREET BANKS AND NOT TO MENTION THAT THE USA LIFE SPAN IS SHORTER THAN ALOT OF COUNTRIES LOOK OUT USA// COULD BE CALLED AFRICA SOON ////NO FOOD////NO MEDICANE JUST FOR THE RICH SOMTHING GOT TO GIVE