The Problem With Politics
This is especially true when making substantial changes in the operations of a sixth of the economy—a sector that potentially affects not only people's daily lives, but their very survival.
It's not that people enjoy this; in fact, it seems to turn a lot of people off. As Robert Putnam wrote, "Most men are not political animals. The world of public affairs is not their world. It is alien to them—possibly benevolent, more probably threatening, but nearly always alien." But to a large extent, the spasms and outbursts and irritations that come with the political process are inevitable—no matter who's in charge, no matter what the polls and pundits and politicians say.
I'd also add a final thought: The way to avoid the maddening convulsions of politics isn't to change them, or rise above them, or move past them, or transform them, or whatever the trendy term of art is on any given day. It's to avoid them—and reduce their power to hold sway over how we live. And the more decisions about our lives and welfare we put in the hands of politicians, the harder that will be to do.
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To get a big majority in the Congress you have to win in conservative and centrist districts. Obama didn't win that many states. I forget the number, but a significant number of Dem Senators are from states that went for McCain. A significant number of Dem Reps are from Districts that went for McCain.
The dipshit left acts like everyone with a D after their name is elected from the same district as Pelosi and can be expected to vote that way. It is easy to be ideologically pure when you are in the minority and not responsible for anything and all the centrists on your side have been killed off. But once you have a large majority, you can't be pure anymore.
That post does not belong on Andrew Sullivan's blog.
It's to avoid them-and reduce their power to hold sway over how we live.
Thanks for alluding to my book, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World.
Agreed. The progressive notion of participatory democracy, where decisions are made by some consensus based public process is largely fantasy. They would like everyone to sit down in a circle for a big group-therapy session, but by attempting to do everything by consensus voting, what they end up doing is enhancing the stakes. So instead of people resolving their differences and making compromises for the "common good", they become more fierce and determined to win at any cost. The more socialized the economy becomes, the more there is to gain and lose in every election.
Winston Churchill was an interesting example to pick, given the political issue in question.
Anyway, for me, the political suckitude of the moment would be easier to deal with if any sliver of the debate were about the particulars of the bill/bills to be voted on. Instead it's mostly been about death panels and socialism and those kuh-raaaazy people at the town halls so far. In that sense I would say there is a failure of leadership.
Yeah,
You are going to let the government run something like healthcare. Who would have thought people would get angry about something like that?
(Medicare)
"Anyway, for me, the political suckitude of the moment would be easier to deal with if any sliver of the debate were about the particulars of the bill/bills to be voted on. Instead it's mostly been about death panels and socialism and those kuh-raaaazy people at the town halls so far. In that sense I would say there is a failure of leadership."
Government appointed panels that determine who gets what treatment can rightly be called death panels if for no other reason than that is the worst possible outcome of such a system. I don't think it is crazy to look at a bill and assume that it be implemented in the most malevolent way by the government. That is what the Federalists Papers tell us and with good reason.
I also don't think it is crazy to assume that Obama and company, people who have openly advocated socialized medicine as their long term goal, mean to use this program as a back door way to get that.
This hasn't been rah rah. This has been a case where the public, despite the entire political and pundit classes open loathing of them, has been spot on and understood exactly what their politicians were up to.
"Government appointed panels that determine who gets what treatment can rightly be called death panels if for no other reason than that is the worst possible outcome of such a system."
Well gee, why don't call cars "crash machines"? Or handguns "baby shooters"? Or women "dick severers"? Why would you label something based on the worst possible outcome? That doesn't make sense to me.
The public is a bunch of damn idiots, except when they agree with us. Then they magically become incomparably wise. Funny how that works.
I don't mean to get bogged down in the particulars of the health care debate itself. I just think it would be better if people were freaking out like they always do about what Congress will actually vote on.
Uh, our political system depends on different factions going at each other's throats for non-rational or even irrational reasons. I don't have to agree with the death panel paranoids or the socialism-screamers to be happy they're pushing back at the single-payer advocates whose lies and distortions are just as ludicrous, however well-masked those lies and distortions are by their hold on all the high offices in the federal govt and the worshipful media.
strike through16 years agoObama made the deadly error of believing his own press. When enough people tell you, over the course of a year, that you are The One, The Savior, The Shining Light, you can't help but being influenced by it. They called Obama a "rock star." But rock stars are vapid, brainless, one-dimensional! Never mind. He beat a third-rate challenger and brought the prophesy to fruition. Then he had to govern, and it began to fall apart. It's fun watching his adoring fanboys and girls transition from ecstasy to denial to anger to...suicide? There's always Hope.
"Well gee, why don't call cars "crash machines"? Or handguns "baby shooters"? Or women "dick severers"? Why would you label something based on the worst possible outcome? That doesn't make sense to me."
When you look at a law you can't look at in terms of what would happen if it were administered perfectly. By that standard any law is a good idea. You have to assume that the law will be twisted and used in the worst way by the government enforcing it.
And I do not consider the people to be idiots. Even when they don't agree with me. I do however consider people on both sides who think the public is dumb to be idiots.
The politics of politics is politics.
...everyone with a D after their name is elected from the same district as Pelosi and can be expected to vote that way
If you listen to the Think Progress/MoveOn crowd, you're absolutley right. The problem is that they are the most vocal and usually say something mildy controversial and therefore the most quoted. Most Progressives I know don't even think that they are progressive, although they ahve no problem calling me an anarchist (like it's a bad thing!). Moreover, Pelosi's own district thinks she's not liberal enough (in my own humble opinion based on random conversations in SF).
Or women "dick severers"?
Because it would really be "servicers."
The Taft-Hartley Act of 1947 -- one of the most important pieces of legislation of the 20th century -- needed a 2/3 majority as Truman vetoed it, and would never have become law were it not for frankly irrational hysteria about communists in the unions trying to take over this country.
If the citizenry had calmly read the actual text of the law and made a rational judgement as to whether the law was a good idea from their perspective, not nearly as many would have pressured their reps to vote for it. And the operative law on labor relations would be the NLRA of 1935, which was a sweetheart deal between FDR and the unions. You think the recent card check proposal would have been a bad piece of legislation, take a look at the NLRA of 1935 and shudder.
I'd also add a final thought: The way to avoid the maddening convulsions of politics isn't to change them, or rise above them, or move past them, or transform them, or whatever the trendy term of art is on any given day. It's to avoid them-and reduce their power to hold sway over how we live. And the more decisions about our lives and welfare we put in the hands of politicians, the harder that will be to do.
No offense, but I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here. This is just a bunch of high-minded, long-winded nonsensical babble.
From The Weekly Standard (@ 11:49 am)
Politico reports that liberals are in "full revolt" against White House signals that the so-called "public option" is negotiable. Bob Herbert - yes, Bob Herbert - has an angry column in today's Times in which he writes that the White House has been "rolled" and that the emerging Obama health reform leaves the "public interest ... behind." In the Post, Eugene Robinson - yes, Eugene Robinson - writes that "we didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one." (Speak for yourself, Gene.) Unbelievably, Jon Stewart is also mad at the president.
Frome Suderman:
Indeed, many on the left seem sickened by the show: Congressional liberals are threatening revolt if reform doesn't include a government-administered plan. Eugene Robinson is not pleased with Obama's politically-driven decisions: "Giving up on the public option might be expedient. But we didn't elect Obama to be an expedient president. We elected him to be a great one." Even Jon Stewart is ribbing Obama for not doing enough to maintain order and push the complete liberal reform agenda through.
Seems like plagerism to me.
You are right Mike. It is utter nonsense. Deciding not to have the government involved in people's lives is a political decision which necessarily involves winning politically. All Suderman is saying is that if everyone would just agree with him that small government is the way to go, there wouldn't be so many vicious political arguments. No wonder he is engaged to Megan McCardle. They seem to be birds of a feather.
Seems to me that if everyone who is in favor of a public option got together they would have the critical mass to voluntarily form a very nice healthcare coop and charitable foundation for the needy. And could leave everybody else out of it.
It would be cool if all of our dumb ideas worked that way. Then I could opt out of paying for these idiotic, ridiculously expensive wars in the middle east.
"They seem to be birds of a feather."
I am NOT a plagerist!
John, I see you wearing Megan's clothes. Take them off. You look ridiculous in that thong.
Warty you can just call me J. Edger.
Well said, except for omitting the obvious conclusion: abolish politics and institute freedom instead. Stop deciding things democratically, and let people make their own decisions. Stop stealing my money and I'll stop stealing yours. If you want to set up a health care collective for everyone who wants in, more power to you.
"It's to avoid them-and reduce their power to hold sway over how we live."
This is not nonsense. It was, in fact, the very practical aim of having a Constitution. Such documents exist to say clearly what is on the political table and what is not. The fact that we have over and over again ignored constitutional restrictions and put things on the table when they should not have been (or went along with the assumption that they WERE on the table), only suggests the difficulty (futility?) of attaining the goal, not that it it, itself, nonsense.
The history of government growth is the history of the art of sneaking inappropriate and even forbidden things onto the table, and leaving them on the table long enough for everyone to assume that they should be there and always were there.
The progressive notion of participatory democracy, where decisions are made by some consensus based public process is largely fantasy.
I think it goes beyond that, to the point where to progressives, freedom is participation. A decision that reduces your actual freedom to act, or that confiscates your property, or that restricts your liberty to do things, is not anti-freedom to a progressive as long as you are included in the decision-making process.
You live with a male "companion"? It all makes so much sense.
"This is not nonsense. It was, in fact, the very practical aim of having a Constitution. Such documents exist to say clearly what is on the political table and what is not. The fact that we have over and over again ignored constitutional restrictions and put things on the table when they should not have been (or went along with the assumption that they WERE on the table), only suggests the difficulty (futility?) of attaining the goal, not that it it, itself, nonsense."
The idea of limited government is not nonsense. I agree with Suderman on that. What is nonsense is the idea that limited government will end our political differences. Sadly, the people who think limited government is a bad idea will continue to disagree with us. All Suderman is saying is "why can't everyone just agree with me and call it a day". Hardly profound.
Fluffy nails it.
"Hardly profound."
ergo the plagerism
Fluffy wrote, "...to progressives, freedom is participation. A decision that reduces your actual freedom to act, or that confiscates your property, or that restricts your liberty to do things, is not anti-freedom to a progressive as long as you are included in the decision-making process."
Yes. Hence the frequent progressive dismissal of tax protests: "The revolutionaries didn't object to taxes per se; they fought against TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION. We're represented now! What's the problem?" As long as we are all in it together (even the loyal dissenters), we are free.
This is a funny debate, in a way. Liberals have some kind of sexual attraction to a "universal" "single-payer" "health care" "system", because it's part of their social contract that they have assumed everyone signed by voting for Barack Obama. All economic arguments are meaningless in the face of their irrefutable logic that health care is a God-given right, or somehow ordained by having a "modern" or "civilized" society. So when they see a "public option" their attraction to the idea of the hyper-efficient government just fixing everything makes them throw economics, and everything else, out the window. Fair competition? It's not supposed to be. You're supposed to be auto-enrolled and penalized for not freaking enjoying it. We're trying to move to a single-payer system in stealth, after all.
The common sense-types saw right through their "optional" plan and protested it. Sure, some of them were afraid of death panels in the next 5 years, but the vast majority were just worried about going down that road at all.
And now that the public option is out, the left is pissed, even though we now have an opportunity to discuss how to promote competition in health care. It's not like you can't set up a highly regulated system that's also competitive, like in Switzerland. In fact, Krugman made that point, but only finally. Competition was always a secondary goal to control, for the left.
So, do I have any confidence that this new reform will do anything to promote competition and keep down prices? Not particularly, because I don't think anyone in politics really wants that if they want to keep the campaign money rolling in. That won't stop Krugman from cheerleading the whole thing, to the bitter end.
Being a part of a civilization is all about balancing freedoms. Your social contract can be found in the constitution and laws of this country. Part of the contract is accepting the outcome of elections and the laws of legislatures. Luckily there are clauses in that contract that allow for free and pragmatic debate, the preferred method of convincing others to go along with your ideas. If you don't like the terms of the contract, engage in political participation and try to change it, or leave, as you would leave an apartment if you don't like the terms of your lease.
Enough About Palin:
That is a coincidence. Thanks for pointing it out. But, as a matter of habit, I don't read The Weekly Standard, and hadn't seen that passage at all until you pointed it out, and I certainly didn't copy it from TWS. And why would I? It's a silly thing to steal, given that I could've easily just pasted the quote in directly and linked to it, or paraphrased it with a link, as I often do.
The idea of limited government is not nonsense. I agree with Suderman on that. What is nonsense is the idea that limited government will end our political differences. Sadly, the people who think limited government is a bad idea will continue to disagree with us. All Suderman is saying is "why can't everyone just agree with me and call it a day". Hardly profound.
Not exactly. What he is really saying is that our political discourse would be less toxic if the stakes were lower. And conversely, the more power the government has over our lives, (or for Tony's sake, the more power we have over each other's lives), the more intensely bitter the political combat becomes.
Balancing freedoms? Careful, son.
Luckily there are clauses in that contract that allow for free and pragmatic debate, the preferred method of convincing others to go along with your ideas. If you don't like the terms of the contract, engage in political participation and try to change it, or leave, as you would leave an apartment if you don't like the terms of your lease.
In other words, what Fluffy said. Nothing in your life is truly your own. Nothing is reserved to the individual to be his alone. It all belongs to the collective. EVERYTHING is on the table, everything is up for a vote, to be seized by whoever wins, and as long as you vote for one of two parties at some point in the process, it's okay.
"I'd also add a final thought: The way to avoid the maddening convulsions of politics isn't to change them, or rise above them, or move past them, or transform them, or whatever the trendy term of art is on any given day. It's to avoid them-and reduce their power to hold sway over how we live. And the more decisions about our lives and welfare we put in the hands of politicians, the harder that will be to do."
No offense, but I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here. This is just a bunch of high-minded, long-winded nonsensical babble.
No offense, but please check out How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World for practical advice.
Good-bye for now ...
# Tony | August 18, 2009, 5:41pm | #
# Your social contract can be found in the
# constitution and laws of this country.
# If you don't like the terms of the contract,
# engage in political participation and try to
# change it, or leave, as you would leave an
# apartment if you don't like the terms of
# your lease.
Actually, I rather like the terms of the contract as spelled out in the Constitution. Not completely, of course, but well enough. The problem is in getting the other party to understand that "no" means "no." When certain issues are declared to be outside the terms of the contract -- off the table -- what are we to do when the other party keeps interpreting the contract as if those declarations aren't there, or at least have no force?
If you are going to make the "social contract" argument, then I am going to say that I think the other party is in breach. Where is the recourse and who enforces it? (Practically, I think I know the answer to that one, but I am curious to know what Tony and other "social contract" proponents think.)
Better response to Tony....
You authorize the winning party to respond to criticism with "we won, so there!", and then you are mystified when people start calling each other facists.
If you don't like the terms of the contract, engage in political participation and try to change it, or leave, as you would leave an apartment if you don't like the terms of your lease.
Try this logic if it's your house that you are being asked to leave.
In what clause in the social contract was it agreed that the government essentially owned everything? And when did I sign?
"If you are going to make the "social contract" argument, then I am going to say that I think the other party is in breach. Where is the recourse and who enforces it?"
Armed revolt?
Analysis: Liberals tired of health care compromise
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul_analysis
Here is a real compromise: leave.
Get the fuck out and move to some socialist paradise more to your liking like Canada or France. Or stay and keep pushing, but don't be surprised when you are identified as a fetus in need of a medical procedure.
That's compromise I can believe in.
You think it's ok to stick a gun to my head and demand more money? Then I think it's ok to abort you.
How about if we put all congress members and their staff on Medicare? That would be a government-run plan.
Like the man said, it's the worst system except for all the others.
I think that's the province of the courts, not a fringe group of antigovernment activists.
"Matt Taibbi seems to capture the liberal mood when he writes that Obama's waffling on the public plan amounts to a "pre-emptive surrender," which he calls "disgusting."
Who and the fuck cares what Matt Taibbi thinks? Quoting him is about as enlightening as quoting the dude Shecky that lives down the street from me.
"You authorize the winning party to respond to criticism with "we won, so there!", and then you are mystified when people start calling each other facists"
Christ, fascist has two fucking S's. I don't usually correct people's spelling, but spelling fascist f-a-c-i-s-t is a huge fucking pet peeve of mine.
When you look at a law you can't look at in terms of what would happen if it were administered perfectly. By that standard any law is a good idea.
Exactly. Anytime we cede a power to the government, we give it up to all future administrations. Obama's already disappointed anyone who expected him to get a lid on the abuses of the PATRIOT act; I don't even want to imagine the kind of havoc that a vengeful harpy like Hillary Clinton would inflict on her enemies.
-jcr
spelling fascist f-a-c-i-s-t is a huge fucking pet peeve of mine.
Maybe he meant "facist": a person who discriminates on the basis of someone's face.
-jcr
All economic arguments are meaningless in the face of their irrefutable logic that health care is a God-given right, or somehow ordained by having a "modern" or "civilized" society.
But of course! We must emulate the countries whose people make a habit of despising the USA and all it stands for. If we institute socialized medicine, then the French won't sneer at us nearly as much, and isn't that worth throwing our prosperity under the bus?
-jcr
"If you don't like the terms of the contract, engage in political participation..."
Just don't engage too much lest you be labelled racist or anti-American.
"When you look at a law you can't look at in terms of what would happen if it were administered perfectly. By that standard any law is a good idea."
Uh, talk about some flawed logic on that one. A law if administered exactly the way it is intended necessarily makes it a good law? So there is no such thing as a bad law, just bad administration of that law?
"It's fun watching his adoring fanboys and girls transition from ecstasy to denial to anger to...suicide? There's always Hope"
I must admit, it is quite awesome watching his approval ratings fucking tank because I remember during the first five months of his presidency, every time he proposed another bullshit bill, his sycophants would gloat and point to his fucking approval ratings, as if they a magical trump card. Well no more. The fucking idiot that we are constantly assured is some brilliant fucking genius made the mistake of believing that his mid 60's ratings were going to be permanent, and the dumbass Obamabots went along with that bullshit.
Remember Obama's halcyon days, about six weeks ago, when his approval ratings where in the mid sixties? Remember how all those polls pointed to how Obama is more popular than his policies? Well the inevitable has happened. The more he kept pushing policies that people told pollsters they didn't like, the more his personal approval rating came to mirror the approval rating of his policies. In about two weeks, I expect every major poll to show his approval rating at 50% or below. And when unemployment hits double digits, like most economists expect it will, watch out. There is no telling what the floor for his personal approval ratings will be. And man, I am fucking loving it because what is bad for his personal political fortunes is good for this country.
Man I followed one of the links you posted for this article, to TAPPED, and I gotta tell you, I fucking love it. My favorite quote is this one:
"Via Steve Benen, Bruce Bartlett is making a lot of sense on where the Republican party finds itself these days: remorseless, arrogant, and unwilling to take responsibility for error."
Yeah, you gotta love the absolute cluelessness of someone claiming that the Republicans are screwing up when it is the Democrats, with their supermajorities in the Senate and huge majorities in the House that can't get a bill passed and are now tearing themselves apart . Furthermore, when you are flailing about and calling protesters racists and un-American because they have the temerity to oppose the takeover and fucking up of a huge portion of the economy, you probably shouldn't label someone else arrogant.
Where is the recourse and who enforces it?
I think ole' TJ had your answer...something about arboreal irrigation techniques
"If you don't like the terms of the contract, engage in political participation and try to change it, or leave, as you would leave an apartment if you don't like the terms of your lease."
Participating in politics is what the protestors at the town halls, the tea prty movement have been doing and the left hates them for it.
As for leaving, the left has not liked the terms of the Constitution for quite a while now and keeps trying to change it through such back door sophistries as the "living constitution". If you're not willing to work within that framework, then YOU are welcome to leave and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. If you don't, you are going to have a fight on your hands, a literal one perhaps if you insist on going down this mad path.
"I think that's the province of the courts, not a fringe group of antigovernment activists."
Enforcement of the Constitution is not, and never should be, considered the sole province of the courts.
Just don't engage too much lest you be labelled racist or anti-American
The correct term is LibertaRaciFascist
Do Leftists really think freedom-loving people are going to leave?
LOL. We have nowhere to go. They can move to Canada or France and fist themselves up the ass until their heart's content.
There are millions upon millions of freedom-loving Americans and we are armed, and we aren't leaving.
One guy with an AR makes liberals shit their panties. Just wait until they see what real opposition looks like. Thankfully, ammo will be easy to conserve because the rifle butt will take of most liberals.
Uh, talk about some flawed logic on that one. A law if administered exactly the way it is intended necessarily makes it a good law? So there is no such thing as a bad law, just bad administration of that law?
Jeez, B, you're being pedantic. He didn't express the idea perfectly, but he's on your side. Lighten up.
The way to avoid the maddening convulsions of politics isn't to change them, or rise above them, or move past them, or transform them, or whatever the trendy term of art is on any given day. It's to avoid them-and reduce their power to hold sway over how we live. And the more decisions about our lives and welfare we put in the hands of politicians, the harder that will be to do.
Uh, great idea. JAM agrees with you, fwiw. Now if you could only tell me how we're supposed to pull this off.......
Not that I disagree with the direction you're trying to go. I just haven't seen a way to protect it politically.
JAM,
The history of government growth is the history of the art of sneaking inappropriate and even forbidden things onto the table, and leaving them on the table long enough for everyone to assume that they should be there and always were there.
Sure. And you can write any constitution you like. But so long as we have democratic processes at work, the sneaking shall continue unabated.
No constitution will ever be able to substitute for -- or stop, more than momentarily -- the intentions of the ambitious politician.
# Ebeneezer Scrooge | August 19, 2009, 1:31am | #
# JAM,
## The history of government growth is the
## history of the art of sneaking
## inappropriate and even forbidden things
## onto the table, and leaving them on the
## table long enough for everyone to assume
## that they should be there and always were
## there.
# Sure. And you can write any constitution you
# like. But so long as we have democratic
# processes at work, the sneaking shall
# continue unabated.
# No constitution will ever be able to
# substitute for -- or stop, more than
# momentarily -- the intentions of the
# ambitious politician.
Perhaps. But it may help inform and justify citizen actions to do so. If only we would act.
Ebeneezer, if you keep this up, you may make a Spoonerist of me:
Spooner: "But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
Must we open THAT can of worms? Really?