The 50th state is on the verge of being governed quite differently, now that a pro-sovereignty Hawaiian is in the White House:
The Obama administration came through on its promise to support Native Hawaiian self-governance Thursday with a powerful statement to a Senate panel, backing a bill that would give Native Hawaiians the same rights as Native Americans and Alaskans.
The full-throated endorsement came from Sam Hirsch, deputy associate attorney general, to the Senate Indian Affairs Committee.
The panel was weighing 9-year-old legislation, authored by Sen. Daniel Akaka, D-Hawaii, that would a set up a process for Native Hawaiian autonomy within the state and federal systems. […]
"The general history of the Native Hawaiian people bears significant similarities to the history of Indian tribes," he said. "The United States has recognized the Kingdom of Hawaii as a sovereign power and dealt with it as such through much of the 19th century." […]
"The legislation before us today provides parity," [Sen. Akaka] said. "It enables Hawaii's indigenous people to establish a government-to-government relationship with the United States. The process is consistent with Constitution, federal and state law."
Eventually, it could give Native Hawaiians greater control over their highly valuable ancestral lands.
The Akaka legislation would develop a process for reorganizing a Native Hawaiian government.
Read the Akaka bill here; Wikipedia page here. Check out this Honolulu Advertiser bit about why for many Hawaiians statehood is a "crime." And read my tentative case from four years ago for putting full-on Hawaiian secession up for a vote.
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How the hell is this supposed to work? Other Indian tribes have an essential element of (quasi-)sovereignty that I believe the Hawaiians lack, namely, territory that is under their jurisdiction and subject to their (semi-)autonomous governance.
I don't see this half-in/half-out deal as being anything other than a cover for special status/privilege (in the olde sense) for some, miniature American flags for others.
I don't see how this is in any way consistent with Article 4 Section 4 of the Constitution which states
"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."
This is not a republican government. It is a god damned tribal oligarchy.
There's no way we can grant full secession. Do you know how much it will cost to replace all those flags? We'll have to force Puerto Rico into statehood or something to keep the stars at 50.
"The United States has recognized the Kingdom of Hawaii as a sovereign power and dealt with it as such through much of the 19th century."
Oh yeah? Well, here in the 21st Century, Hawaii happens to be a U.S. State in equal standing with the other 49. So, Senator, shut the fuck up and stop trying to win votes on your pet issue.
One more step toward ethnic marginalization. If the government effectively separates all Americans into "tribes" against each other, it will wield supreme power over all. Disheartening.
So, what's the ultimate goal here? Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?
"So, what's the ultimate goal here? Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?"
Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?
Sure, they can return to the fine standard of living all the other polynesian islands enjoy, except now they have to pay tariffs on anything from the US. What a great plan!
So, what's the ultimate goal here? Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?
Native Hawaiians believe the land in the 99 year leases is to valuable not to renegotiate the terms, but the non-Native Hawaiian government isn't pushing that renegotiation hard enough, so they need a more favorable government to apply to. Its all about getting more money from the gringos.
We shouldn't be giving Native Hawaiians sovereignty we should be taking sovereignty away from the Native Americans. The whole reservation, sovereign nation thing is ridiculous.
So, what's the ultimate goal here? Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?
Isn't what what happened to the Kingdom of Hawaii essentially eminent domain abuse writ large? A group of businessmen threw a coup and then invited the US govt to take over.
"So, what's the ultimate goal here? Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?"
They're going to just love the Indian Health Service.
This is an amusing quandary for our enlightened leaders to be put into. On the one hand we have their extreme distaste for federalism and anything smacking of secession; on the other we have their "White guilt". Frankly, I doubt Hawaii would really split if push came to shove, though, unless they could get the best of both worlds (ie, no Federal taxes, but still a lot of federal aid, passportless travel, exemption from Federal law, etc.)
Interesting. This may start out as a ploy to get a better deal on some leases, but once you give a shiny toy like quasi-sovereign status to someone, they are going to figure out all kinds of interesting uses to put it to. Off the top of my head:
In a perverse way, I hope the native Hawaiians - once they have "power" - start rolling through Jim Crow laws on all the whiteys and Japs that have oppressed them so long. Can't wait to see a drinking fountain labeled "Honkey Only." It should be quite a hoot.
Plus, mopeds are only allowed for natives, thus preserving the unique native culture of gang mobility in Honolulu. All the black people go to the sugar-cane fields, for some reason somehow.
Twenty years from now, Welch and the rest of the Reason gang (assuming their funding sources are still in business) will be promoting something closer to home.
the good thing is, if the whackos set this bizarro precedent, then Texas can finally secede, as hollowly threatened so many times. sooo fun to deride islanders after gangr aping them for so many decades
Reg: They bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had. And not just from us! From our fathers, and from our father's fathers.
Loretta: And from our father's father's fathers.
Reg: Yeah.
Loretta: And from our father's father's father's fathers.
Reg: Yeah, all right Stan, don't delay with the point. And what have they ever given us in return?
Revolutionary I: The aqueduct?
Reg: What?
Revolutionary I: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh. Yeah, yeah, they did give us that, ah, that's true, yeah.
Revolutionary II: And the sanitation.
Loretta: Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Reg. Remember what the city used to be like.
Reg: Yeah, all right, I'll grant you the aqueduct and sanitation, the two things the Romans have done.
Matthias: And the roads.
Reg: Oh, yeah, obviously the roads. I mean the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads...
Revolutionary III: Irrigation.
Revolutionary I: Medicine.
Revolutionary IV: Education.
Reg: Yeah, yeah, all right, fair enough.
Revolutionary V: And the wine.
All revolutionaries except Reg: Oh, yeah! Right!
Rogers: Yeah! Yeah, that's something we'd really miss Reg, if the Romans left. Huh.
Revolutionary VI: Public bathes.
Loretta: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, Reg.
Rogers: Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it; they're the only ones who could in a place like this.
All revolutionaries except Reg: Hahaha...all right...
Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Revolutionary I: Brought peace?
Reg: Oh, peace! Shut up!
"(It is important to emphasize that some Hawaiians who are strongly pro-independence are opposed to the Akaka Bill, because it would delay the inevitable while further entwining Honolulu with Washington.)"
sounds eerily similar to the circumstances surrounding the demise of one Austrian Archduke... now that this may be coming to a head Akaka better watch his ass...
Matthew: good point.
those little whiners ought to remember the japs woulda bombed the hell out of them for real if we hadn't had our Navy down there to protect them.
You'd end up with something like Fiji. A 'native' population that feels it must disenfranchise the other half of its population due to accident of birth. Most likely it too will have a military dictator that keeps promising elections...soon.
A minor point - although there are conceptual similarities between the treatment by the US of the Polynesian inhabitants of the Sandwich Islands and the mainland Native Americans...the time scale is enough different that I find it hard to see them being able to claim aboriginal status in an equivalent way. I mean we are talking centuries versus millennia, iirc. Something like 9th century for Hawaii, isn't it? I mean, sure that is as old as Acoma Pueblo in NM, but Native Americans have been here since pre-history.
Would the reservation system involved be an interleaved system of ahupua'a, or would they just make take the coast on each Island, about 1 mile deep?
"Frankly, I doubt Hawaii would really split if push came to shove, though, unless they could get the best of both worlds (ie, no Federal taxes, but still a lot of federal aid, passportless travel, exemption from Federal law, etc.)"
That is exactly the Hawaiian gambit: Secede if they don't get complete autonomy AND oodles of mainland Federal aid coupled with unrestricted travel from the states.
A welfare state with Ukeleles and leis for all.
Beautiful!
Apparently there is a lot of "racism" directed at whites by the Hawaiian native people.
The time is ripe for white people to realize that most non-white people think in terms of race, even though whites have been shamed into thinking that such thinking on their own part is the evilest of all evils.
The idiocy of the whole thing is the supposition that 'races' even exist. There is no such thing as a 'white' except in the head of one who subscribes to racist 'theory'.
There are only biological populations which freely mix with other populations. In a short window of time anyone can discern traits common to a particular population, a 'race' in the racists mind. But this population is very plastic as the Hawaiian population has shown.
One can have a Hawaiian last name and look very 'Filipino', have a Polynesian first name and a Portuguese last name and look sorta Portuguese, etc.
"Whites being shamed" shows an inherent claim to racist thinking. The only shame should come from adhering to ideas that have been proven false by modern diasporas and subsequent interbreeding of 'populations' at large. It is evil only when a government provides special treatment based on an arbitrary measure of 'ethnic' or 'racial' purity. Otherwise it is just plain old bigot stupid.
you're an idiot.You think like a typical american and that type of thinking is polluting society.greed,lying and deciet have no place in our culture.i pray the leaders we select don't have your mindset.
One more step toward ethnic marginalization. If the government effectively separates all Americans into "tribes" against each other, it will wield supreme power over all. Disheartening.
Soon, maybe we can have totally separate laws and constitutions for people of different races! Wouldn't that be great? We'd have to sort out what mixed race people would have to do.
The eating of human flesh is not confined to cases of sacrifice for religious purposes, but is practised from habit and taste. The existence of cannibalism, independent of superstitious notions, has been doubted by many. There can be no question that, althoughit may have originated as a sacred rite, it is continued in the Feejee Group for the mere pleasure of eating human flesh as a food. Their fondness for it will be understood from the custom they have of sending portions of it to their friends at a distance, as an acceptable present, and the gift is eaten, even if decomposition have begun before it is received. So highly do they esteem this food, that the greatest praise they can bestow on a delicacy is to say that it is as tender as a dead man."
Charles Wilkes, USN, "Customs of the Feejee Group" in 'Narrative of the US Exploring Expedition'
The idiocy of the whole thing is the supposition that 'races' even exist. There is no such thing as a 'white' except in the head of one who subscribes to racist 'theory'.
Get back to us when you've convinced LaRaza and the NAACP of that. Until then, I'm gonna continue lookin' out for my non-existent, lily-white ass.
Hey, I have a great idea. Why don't we just "Unstate" them - let them become their own country again?
We could do the same with New York, New Jersey, Arizona, Florida, and a few other states sucking all the money from taxpayers. Let them all become their own countries and try to make it on their own.
Subsequently, Red States can sit back and watch our deficit shrink. Heck, I might even want a good health plan sponsored by the government if we got rid of the Blues.
Meanwhile, those Red States can sit back and watch our deficit shrink. Heck, I might even want a good health plan sponsored by the government if we got rid of the Blues.
Sarah Palin is married to an enrolled Yupik Eskimo who once belonged to the Alaska Independence Party. She still catches nine kinds of hell for this from the kind of people who go out of their way to find more reasons to hate her.
As far as I can tell, this is the same thing, except the Alaskans made the mistake of not kicking all the white folks out of their little club. I wonder if anyone but me thinks Obama's support of this travesty reflects poorly upon him?
Garrth said it best. I am convinced that casinos are the main thing in all of this nonsense.
Normally, I would say let them vote and if they want to leave, let them try to survive on their own. They can join the ranks of poor nations in the Pacific, which consists of ALL of them. However, due to Pearl Harbor, I feel a certain attachment to the place and it belongs in the Union.
It should be noted that the real poltical and economic power in the state is vested in second and third generation east asian immigrants (whom are also the majority ethnic group) but who also invevitably have at least one or two grandparents and/or uncles or aunties who married a native hawaiian or a white person.
Man, I can't fucking WAIT to see how something like this turns out. Will there be exclusive Native Hawai'in police officers working alongside non-natives? Will they have on their police cars, "To Protetect and Serve.....Native Hawai'ins Only."
White Girl: Officer, help me, I was raped by a vicious gang of Republicans!
Native Hawai'in Officer: Mmmmmmmmm, are you at least 3/4 Hawai'in?
White Girl: No sir, I'm quite white as you can see.
Native Hawai'in Officer: Sorry, I only help *my* people! Now get off the sidewalk, bitch, There are Native's walking along here!
Just returned from Kauai. Experienced giant chips on the shoulders of native Hawaiians--if there even is a true native.
They showed us an "authentic" Hawaiian village that was in ruins since the 1920's because life was so miserable. Volunteers had to rebuild the ruins each year just to keep the rubble piles from disappearing altogether. It was abandoned as soon as civilization arrived and those same wise natives realized there was something better out there than raiding the next village.
Let them go back to their warring tribes that killed each other, suppressed their women and enforced the death penalty for looking at the two-bit king wrongly. Obama can be their king when he's thrown out of the U.S.
Like Mexico, I know when I'm not wanted. My tourist dollars won't be coming their way again.
Kolohe -
Good point about intermarriage. I don't think there are ANY pure Hawaiians left.
And why stop at a Hawaiian tribe. The islands weren't unified until the 19th century. Before that, there were different kings on each island. So why not a tribe on the big Island, one on Maui, etc.
That said, I see many unintended consequences:
- goodbye to Kamehameha school
- goodbye to the Bishop estate
- kicking the owners of the land worked so well in Zimbabwe, and Ukraine, and every where else it has been tried.
Wow, you guys can't be bothered to do ANY research whatsoever on this stuff, huh? I don't want to call anyone racist for just what I've read here (I certainly don't know any of you IRL) but the overall level of ignorance is astounding. You'd think that a bunch of libertarians would be in favor of more local control, not less.
Dude, putting Detroit and Akron on the same level is harsh. I'm from Akron, and let me tell you that compared with Detroit, Akron is . . . well, it's smaller. And has more hills. And Akron produced DEVO. So there.
Tell the Hawaiians that, if they want sovereignty, they get the whole shebang and drop them from the union. Then see how much sovereignty they get from the Chinese, who will quickly fill the vacuum.
Where there's casinos, there's the Mob - which in Hawaii means the Bishops. This whole thing is probably really just about the Bishop land holdings and real-estate control - it's an oligopoly like no other.
As far as that goes Hawaii is a lot more like California than anything else, especially as far as legislators acting as real-estate agents and all the crooked deals in Sacramento. Democrats have run Hawaii like they run California, since before Statehood. A Republican Governor here and there has no power - the real power is where the money and bodies are buried.
Before becoming a state in 1959, Hawaii had no congressional or senatorial representatives, just a non-voting delegation (of Democrat land-agents). Residents of Hawaii couldn't vote for their Governor either, that position was appointed by the POTUS (a Democrat).
Read, "Land and Power in Hawaii."
I'm not a big fan of Akaka or "Aloha also means Goodbye," and whole Haole Go Home Kapu movement - it's way too late to restore the monarchy, and every part-native local Hawaiian can seem to trace their ancestry to the all important upper class Ali'i - the same way many a Hindu can trace their genealogy back to Rama - by cooked-up (Brahmanical) birth records and purposly misremembered genealogies -- say, maybe that's what this is really all about. Duh!
As far as dividing the land up, the traditional Hawaiian division is pie-like - with everybody (well, the Ali'i) getting a slice that runs from the mountains down to the beach. Democrats made short work of that idea.
Are you people Serous? Casino's, Duty Free Tabacco Sales, free Goverment Money............... this is not a take over for Gods Sake!! It is reaffirming the fact that Indians/Natives of the Land are just entitled to the same oppertunites that every other American Citizen, Wal-Mart, Small Mom & Pop, etc. are entitled to. If you think otherwise I will be forced to see this as another form of oppression brought forward by people like you that think Indians/Natives of the Land are always looking for a free hand out. GOOD LORD!! P. S., as a Native American/Indian...I welcome you to MY lands and feel free to patronize my Casino's purchase my Tabacco as I am sure you benefit too you just can't see it bacuase you are blinded by an age old theory passed on by your ancestors who might I add...invaded us. If you conquered...be prepared to get conquered back.
And why stop at a Hawaiian tribe. The islands weren't unified until the 19th century. Before that, there were different kings on each island. So why not a tribe on the big Island, one on Maui, etc.
Unified, what a laugh. Kamehameha was a smart dude. Got himself some guns, killed anyone who tried to stop him, and took over all the islands.
Anyone familiar with the LAWS in Hawaii pre-contact? People were executed for stepping on a path after an ali'i (noble) had walked on it. Others were killed en masse to appease one god or another.
Also -- it seems that Hawaiians think they'd all be chiefs. That was hardly the case. The land taken over by whites in the 19th Century was SOLD to them by chiefs, not the people who lived on the land. The common people may have had nice weather, but otherwise they were expendable.
This is a mixed bag. I've read about it off and on for years now. My final conclusion is that the Native Hawaiians are really unrealistic about what they have to gain -- and about who's to blame for rampant poverty, drug addiction, etc.
I'm Hawaiian, just not Hawaiian enough I supose (aprox 1/4). Alas, the Blood Quanta done me wrong. My family ran into this issue when filling out applications for my father's 'land grant'. We would not be able to renew or inherit as we have too much Portuguese, Scottish and Italian blood.
I would love to see the Akaka blood line. I doubt he's got enough of the real stuff. In fact, many people don't, so they lie on their applications.
And as somebody all too familiar with the reservation system, being somebody who has spent much time on the reservtions of the West, I hope my fellow half-breeds realize that they want nothing to do with such a ghastly system.
You all should really educate yourselves. Before making such stupid comments...read the bill. Understand the bill. I doubt any of you have read it. I'm amazed at your ignorance. It irritates me that you feel you can comment something you know nothing about.
And just because Copywrite laws or Property Laws didn't exsist in the "indigenous" past, does not mean Everything-Goes when thinking about past crimes against the indigenous peoples. Before anyone goes there... You Bastards.
Just as travel to Hawaii becomes less desirable, make it independent. I like that. Back to crushing island poverty for you native Hawaiians.
Wow, that actually makes sense to me dude!
RT
http://www.anon-web-tools.net.tc
And then the ban on Cuba is lifted. Hawaii what?
DIE ANONYMITY DUDE DIE
How the hell is this supposed to work? Other Indian tribes have an essential element of (quasi-)sovereignty that I believe the Hawaiians lack, namely, territory that is under their jurisdiction and subject to their (semi-)autonomous governance.
I don't see this half-in/half-out deal as being anything other than a cover for special status/privilege (in the olde sense) for some, miniature American flags for others.
can I get duty-free booze and cigarettes at the Native Hawai'ian stores?
I don't see how this is in any way consistent with Article 4 Section 4 of the Constitution which states
"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."
This is not a republican government. It is a god damned tribal oligarchy.
Thank heavens our country is no longer run by those racist Republicans who are always using race to divide people!
There's no way we can grant full secession. Do you know how much it will cost to replace all those flags? We'll have to force Puerto Rico into statehood or something to keep the stars at 50.
Things haven't been the same there since McGarrett retired.
So, when do the casinos open?
"The United States has recognized the Kingdom of Hawaii as a sovereign power and dealt with it as such through much of the 19th century."
Oh yeah? Well, here in the 21st Century, Hawaii happens to be a U.S. State in equal standing with the other 49. So, Senator, shut the fuck up and stop trying to win votes on your pet issue.
He's playing into the Birthers' hands. Once Hawaii secedes, he'll become an uncitizen!
I don't get it, really. Daniel Akaka won with 61% of the vote and could probably be in the Senate until he dies, if he wants. Why pander?
Daniel Akaka won with 61% of the vote and could probably be in the Senate until he dies, if he wants. Why pander?
Well, I suppose that there is some chance that he means what he says.
One more step toward ethnic marginalization. If the government effectively separates all Americans into "tribes" against each other, it will wield supreme power over all. Disheartening.
You guys are all overlooking the upside (except for TAO): Hawaii will become Vegas with beaches!
I, for one, welcome my Polynesian racial overlords and their casinos and legalized brothels.
We'll have to force Puerto Rico into statehood or something to keep the stars at 50.
How about making Upper Michigan into a separate state?
A new conspiracy theory is born! Obama wants to destroy America so that he can set Hawaii free!
Hell, it's better than what the birthers are pushing now...
-jcr
If the government effectively separates all Americans into "tribes" against each other, it will wield supreme power over all.
Either that, or we'll all secede.
-jcr
That would be a secessful strategy.
So, what's the ultimate goal here? Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?
How about making Upper Michigan into a separate state?
Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that Jesse posted last year about "the state of Jefferson".
A new conspiracy theory is born! Obama wants to destroy America so that he can set Hawaii free!
Never trust a politician that embraces casual friday.
"So, what's the ultimate goal here? Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?"
That's a damned good question.
Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?
Sure, they can return to the fine standard of living all the other polynesian islands enjoy, except now they have to pay tariffs on anything from the US. What a great plan!
So, what's the ultimate goal here? Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?
Native Hawaiians believe the land in the 99 year leases is to valuable not to renegotiate the terms, but the non-Native Hawaiian government isn't pushing that renegotiation hard enough, so they need a more favorable government to apply to. Its all about getting more money from the gringos.
Anyone want to take a stab at why their lands have become so valuable?
We shouldn't be giving Native Hawaiians sovereignty we should be taking sovereignty away from the Native Americans. The whole reservation, sovereign nation thing is ridiculous.
So, what's the ultimate goal here? Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?
I hope they don't all become alcoholics!
Isn't what what happened to the Kingdom of Hawaii essentially eminent domain abuse writ large? A group of businessmen threw a coup and then invited the US govt to take over.
"So, what's the ultimate goal here? Set up native Hawaiians on reservations so they may enjoy the social and economic successes that Native Americans enjoy on the mainland?"
They're going to just love the Indian Health Service.
http://www.ihs.gov/
This is an amusing quandary for our enlightened leaders to be put into. On the one hand we have their extreme distaste for federalism and anything smacking of secession; on the other we have their "White guilt". Frankly, I doubt Hawaii would really split if push came to shove, though, unless they could get the best of both worlds (ie, no Federal taxes, but still a lot of federal aid, passportless travel, exemption from Federal law, etc.)
Interesting. This may start out as a ploy to get a better deal on some leases, but once you give a shiny toy like quasi-sovereign status to someone, they are going to figure out all kinds of interesting uses to put it to. Off the top of my head:
(1) Native Hawaiian courts.
(2) Native Hawaiian state tax exemption.
(3) Native Hawaiian police force.
In a perverse way, I hope the native Hawaiians - once they have "power" - start rolling through Jim Crow laws on all the whiteys and Japs that have oppressed them so long. Can't wait to see a drinking fountain labeled "Honkey Only." It should be quite a hoot.
Plus, mopeds are only allowed for natives, thus preserving the unique native culture of gang mobility in Honolulu. All the black people go to the sugar-cane fields, for some reason somehow.
Moral relativism rocks!
"Honkey Only" or "Haole go home!" any bets which, TheZeiteist?
Twenty years from now, Welch and the rest of the Reason gang (assuming their funding sources are still in business) will be promoting something closer to home.
Say, isn't it odd how Obama is coming through for Hawaii?
the good thing is, if the whackos set this bizarro precedent, then Texas can finally secede, as hollowly threatened so many times. sooo fun to deride islanders after gangr aping them for so many decades
Reg: They bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had. And not just from us! From our fathers, and from our father's fathers.
Loretta: And from our father's father's fathers.
Reg: Yeah.
Loretta: And from our father's father's father's fathers.
Reg: Yeah, all right Stan, don't delay with the point. And what have they ever given us in return?
Revolutionary I: The aqueduct?
Reg: What?
Revolutionary I: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh. Yeah, yeah, they did give us that, ah, that's true, yeah.
Revolutionary II: And the sanitation.
Loretta: Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Reg. Remember what the city used to be like.
Reg: Yeah, all right, I'll grant you the aqueduct and sanitation, the two things the Romans have done.
Matthias: And the roads.
Reg: Oh, yeah, obviously the roads. I mean the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads...
Revolutionary III: Irrigation.
Revolutionary I: Medicine.
Revolutionary IV: Education.
Reg: Yeah, yeah, all right, fair enough.
Revolutionary V: And the wine.
All revolutionaries except Reg: Oh, yeah! Right!
Rogers: Yeah! Yeah, that's something we'd really miss Reg, if the Romans left. Huh.
Revolutionary VI: Public bathes.
Loretta: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, Reg.
Rogers: Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it; they're the only ones who could in a place like this.
All revolutionaries except Reg: Hahaha...all right...
Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Revolutionary I: Brought peace?
Reg: Oh, peace! Shut up!
"(It is important to emphasize that some Hawaiians who are strongly pro-independence are opposed to the Akaka Bill, because it would delay the inevitable while further entwining Honolulu with Washington.)"
sounds eerily similar to the circumstances surrounding the demise of one Austrian Archduke... now that this may be coming to a head Akaka better watch his ass...
Matthew: good point.
those little whiners ought to remember the japs woulda bombed the hell out of them for real if we hadn't had our Navy down there to protect them.
Brian, were you not crucified?
You'd end up with something like Fiji. A 'native' population that feels it must disenfranchise the other half of its population due to accident of birth. Most likely it too will have a military dictator that keeps promising elections...soon.
A group of businessmen threw a coup and then invited the US govt to take over.
It was for a public purpose.
A minor point - although there are conceptual similarities between the treatment by the US of the Polynesian inhabitants of the Sandwich Islands and the mainland Native Americans...the time scale is enough different that I find it hard to see them being able to claim aboriginal status in an equivalent way. I mean we are talking centuries versus millennia, iirc. Something like 9th century for Hawaii, isn't it? I mean, sure that is as old as Acoma Pueblo in NM, but Native Americans have been here since pre-history.
Would the reservation system involved be an interleaved system of ahupua'a, or would they just make take the coast on each Island, about 1 mile deep?
"Frankly, I doubt Hawaii would really split if push came to shove, though, unless they could get the best of both worlds (ie, no Federal taxes, but still a lot of federal aid, passportless travel, exemption from Federal law, etc.)"
That is exactly the Hawaiian gambit: Secede if they don't get complete autonomy AND oodles of mainland Federal aid coupled with unrestricted travel from the states.
A welfare state with Ukeleles and leis for all.
Beautiful!
Apparently there is a lot of "racism" directed at whites by the Hawaiian native people.
The time is ripe for white people to realize that most non-white people think in terms of race, even though whites have been shamed into thinking that such thinking on their own part is the evilest of all evils.
The idiocy of the whole thing is the supposition that 'races' even exist. There is no such thing as a 'white' except in the head of one who subscribes to racist 'theory'.
There are only biological populations which freely mix with other populations. In a short window of time anyone can discern traits common to a particular population, a 'race' in the racists mind. But this population is very plastic as the Hawaiian population has shown.
One can have a Hawaiian last name and look very 'Filipino', have a Polynesian first name and a Portuguese last name and look sorta Portuguese, etc.
"Whites being shamed" shows an inherent claim to racist thinking. The only shame should come from adhering to ideas that have been proven false by modern diasporas and subsequent interbreeding of 'populations' at large. It is evil only when a government provides special treatment based on an arbitrary measure of 'ethnic' or 'racial' purity. Otherwise it is just plain old bigot stupid.
Yea! Once the Native Hawaiians are sovereign they'll be able to operate casinos.
you're an idiot.You think like a typical american and that type of thinking is polluting society.greed,lying and deciet have no place in our culture.i pray the leaders we select don't have your mindset.
One more step toward ethnic marginalization. If the government effectively separates all Americans into "tribes" against each other, it will wield supreme power over all. Disheartening.
Soon, maybe we can have totally separate laws and constitutions for people of different races! Wouldn't that be great? We'd have to sort out what mixed race people would have to do.
Exactly, Querty. Separate languages, currency and holidays will follow. To get things right, let's use Eastern Europe as the model.
strike through16 years agoI say let 'em go. Watching a former state turn to cannibalism would be kinda groovy.
I say let 'em go. Watching a former state turn to cannibalism would be kinda groovy.
We already have California.
strike through16 years agoI would pay American dollars to watch a Hawaiian eat Nancy Pelosi.
How 'bout "Kill Haole day"
The eating of human flesh is not confined to cases of sacrifice for religious purposes, but is practised from habit and taste. The existence of cannibalism, independent of superstitious notions, has been doubted by many. There can be no question that, althoughit may have originated as a sacred rite, it is continued in the Feejee Group for the mere pleasure of eating human flesh as a food. Their fondness for it will be understood from the custom they have of sending portions of it to their friends at a distance, as an acceptable present, and the gift is eaten, even if decomposition have begun before it is received. So highly do they esteem this food, that the greatest praise they can bestow on a delicacy is to say that it is as tender as a dead man."
Charles Wilkes, USN, "Customs of the Feejee Group" in 'Narrative of the US Exploring Expedition'
Why soverign land on the islands at all?
The U.S. could set up a reservation anywhere.
I'm thinking Detroit or maybe Akron.
SteveinTX
USA = FUBAR
God, I hope the Feds never decide to give me "the same rights as Native Americans."
Shouldn' Hawaii revert to the Japanese if the US pulls out?
The idiocy of the whole thing is the supposition that 'races' even exist. There is no such thing as a 'white' except in the head of one who subscribes to racist 'theory'.
Get back to us when you've convinced LaRaza and the NAACP of that. Until then, I'm gonna continue lookin' out for my non-existent, lily-white ass.
Hey, I have a great idea. Why don't we just "Unstate" them - let them become their own country again?
We could do the same with New York, New Jersey, Arizona, Florida, and a few other states sucking all the money from taxpayers. Let them all become their own countries and try to make it on their own.
Subsequently, Red States can sit back and watch our deficit shrink. Heck, I might even want a good health plan sponsored by the government if we got rid of the Blues.
Meanwhile, those Red States can sit back and watch our deficit shrink. Heck, I might even want a good health plan sponsored by the government if we got rid of the Blues.
Sarah Palin is married to an enrolled Yupik Eskimo who once belonged to the Alaska Independence Party. She still catches nine kinds of hell for this from the kind of people who go out of their way to find more reasons to hate her.
As far as I can tell, this is the same thing, except the Alaskans made the mistake of not kicking all the white folks out of their little club. I wonder if anyone but me thinks Obama's support of this travesty reflects poorly upon him?
So, when do the casinos open?
Garrth said it best. I am convinced that casinos are the main thing in all of this nonsense.
Normally, I would say let them vote and if they want to leave, let them try to survive on their own. They can join the ranks of poor nations in the Pacific, which consists of ALL of them. However, due to Pearl Harbor, I feel a certain attachment to the place and it belongs in the Union.
mad as h,
if you kick az out of the union plz let me know. i would love to return to my home state if it were sovereign...
It should be noted that the real poltical and economic power in the state is vested in second and third generation east asian immigrants (whom are also the majority ethnic group) but who also invevitably have at least one or two grandparents and/or uncles or aunties who married a native hawaiian or a white person.
NTTAW anything above.
*Sound of liberal jaws dropping in unison*
Man, I can't fucking WAIT to see how something like this turns out. Will there be exclusive Native Hawai'in police officers working alongside non-natives? Will they have on their police cars, "To Protetect and Serve.....Native Hawai'ins Only."
White Girl: Officer, help me, I was raped by a vicious gang of Republicans!
Native Hawai'in Officer: Mmmmmmmmm, are you at least 3/4 Hawai'in?
White Girl: No sir, I'm quite white as you can see.
Native Hawai'in Officer: Sorry, I only help *my* people! Now get off the sidewalk, bitch, There are Native's walking along here!
Can't fucking wait.
Just returned from Kauai. Experienced giant chips on the shoulders of native Hawaiians--if there even is a true native.
They showed us an "authentic" Hawaiian village that was in ruins since the 1920's because life was so miserable. Volunteers had to rebuild the ruins each year just to keep the rubble piles from disappearing altogether. It was abandoned as soon as civilization arrived and those same wise natives realized there was something better out there than raiding the next village.
Let them go back to their warring tribes that killed each other, suppressed their women and enforced the death penalty for looking at the two-bit king wrongly. Obama can be their king when he's thrown out of the U.S.
Like Mexico, I know when I'm not wanted. My tourist dollars won't be coming their way again.
Have these Native Hawaiians ever visited a reservation and enjoyed the education and health systems? Let's bring the US military out of Hawaii now!
Kolohe -
Good point about intermarriage. I don't think there are ANY pure Hawaiians left.
And why stop at a Hawaiian tribe. The islands weren't unified until the 19th century. Before that, there were different kings on each island. So why not a tribe on the big Island, one on Maui, etc.
That said, I see many unintended consequences:
- goodbye to Kamehameha school
- goodbye to the Bishop estate
- kicking the owners of the land worked so well in Zimbabwe, and Ukraine, and every where else it has been tried.
I'm not sure I like the idea of the Japanese being that much closer to mainland USA.
Ah, caca.
Give 'em back Hawaii when they give us back Canada.
Wow, you guys can't be bothered to do ANY research whatsoever on this stuff, huh? I don't want to call anyone racist for just what I've read here (I certainly don't know any of you IRL) but the overall level of ignorance is astounding. You'd think that a bunch of libertarians would be in favor of more local control, not less.
SteveinTX,
Dude, putting Detroit and Akron on the same level is harsh. I'm from Akron, and let me tell you that compared with Detroit, Akron is . . . well, it's smaller. And has more hills. And Akron produced DEVO. So there.
Dark Helmet, formerly of Akron
Jake,
Local control doesn't mean giving power to one segment of locals and taking it away from another segment of locals based on an assumed heritage.
Tell the Hawaiians that, if they want sovereignty, they get the whole shebang and drop them from the union. Then see how much sovereignty they get from the Chinese, who will quickly fill the vacuum.
Typical liberal attitude. I want the fed $$$ but not the responsibility
Fuck you haoles. Stay home, don't come here. What a bunch of racist fucktards.
(1) Native Hawaiian courts.
(2) Native Hawaiian state tax exemption.
(3) Native Hawaiian police force.
These things already exist, to a degree -- sometimes to a great degree.
Where there's casinos, there's the Mob - which in Hawaii means the Bishops. This whole thing is probably really just about the Bishop land holdings and real-estate control - it's an oligopoly like no other.
As far as that goes Hawaii is a lot more like California than anything else, especially as far as legislators acting as real-estate agents and all the crooked deals in Sacramento. Democrats have run Hawaii like they run California, since before Statehood. A Republican Governor here and there has no power - the real power is where the money and bodies are buried.
Before becoming a state in 1959, Hawaii had no congressional or senatorial representatives, just a non-voting delegation (of Democrat land-agents). Residents of Hawaii couldn't vote for their Governor either, that position was appointed by the POTUS (a Democrat).
Read, "Land and Power in Hawaii."
I'm not a big fan of Akaka or "Aloha also means Goodbye," and whole Haole Go Home Kapu movement - it's way too late to restore the monarchy, and every part-native local Hawaiian can seem to trace their ancestry to the all important upper class Ali'i - the same way many a Hindu can trace their genealogy back to Rama - by cooked-up (Brahmanical) birth records and purposly misremembered genealogies -- say, maybe that's what this is really all about. Duh!
As far as dividing the land up, the traditional Hawaiian division is pie-like - with everybody (well, the Ali'i) getting a slice that runs from the mountains down to the beach. Democrats made short work of that idea.
Are you people Serous? Casino's, Duty Free Tabacco Sales, free Goverment Money............... this is not a take over for Gods Sake!! It is reaffirming the fact that Indians/Natives of the Land are just entitled to the same oppertunites that every other American Citizen, Wal-Mart, Small Mom & Pop, etc. are entitled to. If you think otherwise I will be forced to see this as another form of oppression brought forward by people like you that think Indians/Natives of the Land are always looking for a free hand out. GOOD LORD!! P. S., as a Native American/Indian...I welcome you to MY lands and feel free to patronize my Casino's purchase my Tabacco as I am sure you benefit too you just can't see it bacuase you are blinded by an age old theory passed on by your ancestors who might I add...invaded us. If you conquered...be prepared to get conquered back.
And why stop at a Hawaiian tribe. The islands weren't unified until the 19th century. Before that, there were different kings on each island. So why not a tribe on the big Island, one on Maui, etc.
Unified, what a laugh. Kamehameha was a smart dude. Got himself some guns, killed anyone who tried to stop him, and took over all the islands.
Anyone familiar with the LAWS in Hawaii pre-contact? People were executed for stepping on a path after an ali'i (noble) had walked on it. Others were killed en masse to appease one god or another.
Also -- it seems that Hawaiians think they'd all be chiefs. That was hardly the case. The land taken over by whites in the 19th Century was SOLD to them by chiefs, not the people who lived on the land. The common people may have had nice weather, but otherwise they were expendable.
This is a mixed bag. I've read about it off and on for years now. My final conclusion is that the Native Hawaiians are really unrealistic about what they have to gain -- and about who's to blame for rampant poverty, drug addiction, etc.
I'm Hawaiian, just not Hawaiian enough I supose (aprox 1/4). Alas, the Blood Quanta done me wrong. My family ran into this issue when filling out applications for my father's 'land grant'. We would not be able to renew or inherit as we have too much Portuguese, Scottish and Italian blood.
I would love to see the Akaka blood line. I doubt he's got enough of the real stuff. In fact, many people don't, so they lie on their applications.
And as somebody all too familiar with the reservation system, being somebody who has spent much time on the reservtions of the West, I hope my fellow half-breeds realize that they want nothing to do with such a ghastly system.
Especially if this means an increase in the supply of hawt Polynesian strumpets.
Anyone else unable to follow the link to the Honolulu Advertiser? I'm getting a 404...
You all should really educate yourselves. Before making such stupid comments...read the bill. Understand the bill. I doubt any of you have read it. I'm amazed at your ignorance. It irritates me that you feel you can comment something you know nothing about.
You pricks are all wrong.
It is not about color or race. What a fuck-all red herring, you bitches.
Its about how owned the house, then how came and stole the house.
And now replace "house" with any other type of property, real, personal, intellectual, etc.
Fuck you all, you all are racists!
Blogimi-fuckin-Dei
Fuck!
Please replace all "how"s with "who"s...
And then tell me to fuck-off...
Blogimi Dei
And just because Copywrite laws or Property Laws didn't exsist in the "indigenous" past, does not mean Everything-Goes when thinking about past crimes against the indigenous peoples. Before anyone goes there... You Bastards.
blogimiDei