Little Bitty Bang Bang
The trouble with "cash for clunkers"
Here's an idea: Let's give $50,000 to anyone looking to upgrade to a brand-spanking-new, environmentally friendly home. All we ask in return is that you burn your previous residence into a heap of smoldering cinder.
That's the concept behind the bizarre "cash for clunkers" program so many people are deeming a success. It's so successful, in fact, that Congress will increase funding for it by 200 percent.
Then again, in Washington, a place where elected officials are astonished—astonished!—when a program doling out free cash is popular, success often translates into higher costs and fewer results.
Now, some of you radicals may have an ideological dilemma with a government handing out thousands of dollars to citizens making an average of $57,000 a year so they can upgrade their perfectly serviceable vehicles. Turns out, though, that by nearly any criterion, including the ones offered up by President Barack Obama, this populist experiment is an unmitigated fiasco.
To begin with, building a new car consumes energy. It is estimated that 6.7 tons of carbon are emitted in the process. So a driver who participates in the "cash for clunkers" program would need to make up for that wickedness. There are about 250 million registered vehicles in the United States. Only a micro-slither of those cars will be traded in—and a slither of that number could be deemed "clunkers" outside the Beltway.
A survey of car dealerships found a relatively small differential in fuel efficiency between cars traded in and those replacing them. A Reuters analysis concluded—even with the extended program in place—"cash for clunkers" would trim U.S. oil consumption by only a quarter of 1 percent.
As an economic stimulus, the plan is equally impotent. As James Pethokoukis, a columnist at Reuters, succinctly explained, "The program gets much of its juice via stealing car sales from the near future rather than generating additional demand."
The point of a stimulus should be to create new demand, not to move existing demand around to score political points. Then again, for this administration, economic recovery always takes a back seat to moral recovery.
If the nation weren't in the midst of a six-month agenda of national redistribution, this kind of blatantly inefficient program—even if it were ostensibly about the environment—would be allotted a measure of substantive debate in Congress. No such luck. We need to pass something quickly—quickly, always quickly. And that kind of pressure typically manifests in some creative accounting.
This week, Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood claimed that "cash for clunkers" had benefited domestic car companies, particularly Ford. When The Associated Press requested data to verify this contention, the most transparent administration ever to grace God's soon-to-be-unblemished Earth refused to release the data.
The AP reported that "the limited information released so far shows most buyers are not picking Ford, Chrysler or General Motors vehicles, and six of the top 10 vehicles purchased are Honda, Toyota and Hyundai."
If those numbers are correct, take it as a positive sign that companies that avoided the orgy of corporate welfare are exceeding expectations.
But unless your idea of success is transferring wealth from one citizen to another for no tangible economic or environmental benefit, "cash for clunkers," like much of what passes as stimulus these days, is a major dud.
David Harsanyi is a columnist at The Denver Post and the author of Nanny State. Visit his Web site at www.DavidHarsanyi.com.
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I think we need to apply this idea to the entire economy. How about "Cash for Shacks"? The housing and construction market is down. So let's pay people to sell their old houses, which the government will tear down and then use the money to buy new more efficient ones. Or how about "Cash for Rust"? We pay companies to sell their factories to the government so they can be bull dozed and the companies use the cash to build new ones?
Clearly, the solution here is to just buy and destroy every asset we have so we have to buy new, more efficient ones.
Or hell, why even bother with the cash part. Let's just carpet bomb the entire country and then all get rich on the rebuilding.
I've said it before: nobody in the federal government knows what money actually means.
I'm just hoping Victory Auto Wreckers will get a new more efficient ad.*
Inside joke for those in the greater Chicagoland area.
Goal of the program: increase in fuel efficiency of the fleet of cars Americans drive.
Not the goal of the program: stimulate the economy.
Success is measured by the goal of the program, methinks.
It may fail by that measure, but I haven't seen a serious analysis yet. By design, however, I think the qualifying improvement is a bit too modest. The bench mark to qualify should have been higher.
Or hell, why even bother with the cash part. Let's just carpet bomb the entire country and then all get rich on the rebuilding.
There you go, John. A Marshall Plan for America!
Plus, think of the stimulus for the defense industry! And a possible revenue stream, selling off the rights to bomb a particular neighborhood or factory.
Nice Bullitt still; it's better in action, though, with the god-awful uncontrolled wheel hop.
"Plus, think of the stimulus for the defense industry! And a possible revenue stream, selling off the rights to bomb a particular neighborhood or factory."
Can I have the rights to bomb Berkley, Ann Arbor and Cambridge? I would really want Captial Hill, but I am sure I would be outbid for that one.
"Goal of the program: increase in fuel efficiency of the fleet of cars Americans drive.
Not the goal of the program: stimulate the economy."
If that is the goal, it is a more pathetic program than even I thought. I fail to see how a small increase in fuel efficiency is worth the price of destroying billions in assets and driving up the price of used cars and parts. Essentially, it is making poor people's lives harder so that the upper middle class can get cheap replacements for their second cars and feel good about themselves. Yeah, that is good government in action there.
It may fail by that measure, but I haven't seen a serious analysis yet.
There was some data posted in another thread here indicating that the average increase in mpg was somewhere around 3 or 4(?). People were trading in vehicles just under the max to qualify, and buying vehicles just over the minimum to qualify.
So your starting point is not looking good.
You still need to figure out how many people actually changed the car they wanted to buy from a lower-mileage to a higher-mileage car, but anyone who just used the program to buy what they were going to buy anyway falls out of the benefit column, so you could only lose ground from there.
I suppose you might pick up some ground if you can show that the poor people who have been denied the cars that were destroyed wound up with a higher-mileage car. Maybe the analysis there would be how much the average mileage of the clunker fleet still on the road was improved by this. If the needle twitched even 1 mpg, I'd be surprised.
This week, Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood claimed that "cash for clunkers" had benefited domestic car companies, particularly Ford. When The Associated Press requested data to verify this contention, the most transparent administration ever to grace God's soon-to-be-unblemished Earth refused to release the data.
Actually, the registry website is from all accounts a gargantuan clusterfuck. As far as I have read, it's such a mess, nobody *really* knows where the program stands.
Woah, really? I mean, should I go delve into the legislative history for you?
The purpose is what the program does - buys and destroys old cars and subsidizes the purchases of new ones.
I doubt there was anything in the bill that said "In order to reduce carbon emissions by X or Y percentage over Z years..."
Something tells me there wasn't really a goal here; more a mix of corporate welfare, silly "environmental" concerns and "stimulus".
I am shocked, shocked that John is repeating right-wing talking points as though they are his own, original thoughts.
The program is stupid and stupidly executed, even in terms of accomplishing its goals. If the feds were going to stimulate the economy by increasing incentives to purchase cars, why did we have to bail out GM? Why not just do the one?
If a goal is to reduce contributions to carbon emissions and increase fuel economy, why not increase the disparity between the trade-in and the new purchase?
Finally, destruction of the trade-ins is stupid, as was previously alluded to on HnR: mandate that the cars be stripped for parts/ recycled instead. Or just fucking give the cars to poor people with even worse, more polluting cars, or no cars at all, and stop subsiding mass transit that doesn't work and that no one uses.
There is one inescapable fact to be gleaned so far: The government is horribly overpaying for used cars. They could cut the rebate in half and still get just as many cars. And if you really believe that the program is useful, and I happen to think it's less bad than a lot of "stimulus" programs, then we should be trying to maximize our value from the additional 2 billion to be invested into it. Cut the rebate to $1500 and get 2-3 times as many clunkers off the road.
If we want to maximize our value, we'll cancel the program.
"I am shocked, shocked that John is repeating right-wing talking points as though they are his own, original thoughts."
Since when is the broken windows fallacy and basic economic reasoning "right wing talking points". I guess since the leftwing can't understand those things and comes up with dumb shit like this, maybe it is.
Further, since you go on to basically agree with everything I said, I guess you are repeating right wing talking points as well. Have you gone right? Or are you just an insufferable prick who feels the need to attack someone even when you agree with them?
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/08/03/john-lott-cash-clunkers/
"The Obama administration also got the [C4C] program's costs all wrong. The money was spent so quickly that it lasted less than a week-- just 8 percent of the time that it was supposed to last. If the government gets the health care numbers this wrong, one can only imagine the damage to the deficit."
When success is defined as "we were able to give away WAY more taxpayer money than we thought we would" you should be worried.
Very, very worried.
And these people want to run 15% of the economy.
Xeones | August 5, 2009, 12:09pm | #
I've said it before: nobody in the federal government knows what money actually means.
You're definitely on to something there.
Why weren't the cars stripped for parts? Why just crushed? Why not restore the ones that can be restored or converted to bio=diesel? So dumb and wasteful.
So dumb and wasteful.
It's Congress, Bart; that's how they operate.
Goal of the program: increase in fuel efficiency of the fleet of cars Americans drive.
Not the goal of the program: stimulate the economy.
Success is measured by the goal of the program, methinks.
This program is epic fail from the word 'go'. First, it fails to stimulate economy (stated goal of the Obama administration). Second, it more than likely fails to increase the overall fuel efficiency of the American car fleet. Third, there are so many perverse incentives now injected into the market, you'll never know just how deep this fail goes. See RC Dean's post above regarding people who would have purchased anyway. Add in people who are trading in second or third vehicles they didn't drive much anyway. Add in the notion that keeping an old car running as opposed to building a new one at the factory blah blah blah.
I'm trying to think of a dumber program in recent memory, and frankly, I can't.
TAO,
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h2751/text
To accelerate motor fuel savings nationwide and provide incentives to registered owners of high polluting automobiles to replace such automobiles with new fuel efficient and less polluting automobiles.
Don't confuse the rhetoric used to sell the bill with the purpose of the bill.
It could be argued, of course, that the text does not match the ACTUAL goal, but...
Done and done... I don't care if it's hyperbole used to sell the bill. It. is. a. stated. goal. That is all.
And let's face it, if the rhetoric used to sell the bill is different than the text of the bill, then in car dealership terms, this would be called "Bait and switch".
So I guess maybe the government should be in the car business.
Don't confuse the rhetoric used to sell the bill with the purpose of the bill.
So, we should just treat the rhetoric as a lie?
Why shouldn't we treat the blah-blah boilerplate in the bill as a pretext, and the public statements of its proponents as the true purpose?
Paul,
You are assuming that Carl Levin read the bill. ;^)
To me it seems his statement is a stated goal of HIS VOTE.
It is not a stated purpose of the bill, which can, really, only be stated in the bill itself.
His goal is re-election.
So, we should just treat the rhetoric as a lie?
Well, I guess that depends upon whether you believe the speaker believes his own rhetoric or not.
But, a "reason this program is a good idea" is, certainly, a different animal than "the purpose of the program."
hmm.
taking durable goods and destroying them before they have realised their maximum potential thus wasting the energy (capital) that they have stored in them; all in the name of the environment.
brilliant! that's like dumping refined fuel into the sewer in the name of air quality!
and willful destruction of capital? shining economic policy! can't miss!
it's nice when the buffoons putting on the circuses take the time to participate.
There was some data posted in another thread here indicating that the average increase in mpg was somewhere around 3 or 4(?). People were trading in vehicles just under the max to qualify, and buying vehicles just over the minimum to qualify.
IF that is true (probably is), it would be because a large number of the credits are being given to trucks. The car rules mandate a minimum of 4mpg improvement (like I said above, too small). To get the full credit you need a minimum of 10 mpg.
Additional facts related to several posts above:
The CARS Act requires that the trade-in vehicle be crushed or shredded so that it will not be resold for use in the United States or elsewhere as an automobile. The entity crushing or shredding the vehicles in this manner will be allowed to sell some parts of the vehicle prior to crushing or shredding it, but these parts cannot include the engine or the drive train.
So what I'm hearing is, it was a bill they needed to sell on different goals than the stated goals within the bill text... to get re-elected.
And this is good legislation.
Somebody shoot me now.
The entity crushing or shredding the vehicles in this manner will be allowed to sell some parts of the vehicle prior to crushing or shredding it, but these parts cannot include the engine or the drive train.
Excellent, so if your old car needs new rings, cylinders, valves, rebuilt transmission, differential or, you know, something really expensive, you can't use those parts. But if the little button on your e-brake fails, or the passenger side vent cracks, you're in luck.
IF that is true (probably is), it would be because a large number of the credits are being given to trucks.
I checked the post again, and I think I misrepresented it. It was from the NYT auto blog, and it had the number for cars traded in (just under the maximum mpg) but not for their replacements. So your baseline is probably better than I thought.
The same downward adjustments apply, though.
Why weren't the cars stripped for parts?
Hello it's called "reducing CO2". Keep asking questions like that and we're going to have to start wondering if you WANT to destroy the environment.
So since I just bought these fucks a new car, can I at least bum a ride?
Hello it's called "reducing CO2".
how is willful destruction of capital and artificially stimulating an energy intensive industry effective at reducing CO2?
"we are all suckers now!"
We want to upgrade to a minivan so we can haul our kids around. Where's my Cars For Families money?
One can only hope that most of the "clunkers" would have been destined for the junkyard in the near future anyway. If that's the case, then the destroying of wealth is not much of an issue. Of course, the redistribution of wealth from the general population to new car buyers still is.
Mike: your family is killing the planet! so once you off your firstborn, maybe we can talk about it!
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21684156-5009760,00.html
The program was supposed to save oil and reduce pollution. So lets look at it from a fossil fuel point of view.
According to Ford (and some others) a mid-sized car or small truck is about 79GJ (gigajoules) to produce and recycle. That's about 22,000 kW's. Since 1 Gallon of crude = 17 KW, that means it takes about 1294 Gallons of crude to produce the car.
(Some people bad at math will tell you a gallon of crude is about 40kWh in pure energy, but our oil power plants are only 42% efficient)
Now, assume 12K miles/year and 24 mpg (both EPA averages) = 500 Gallons/year (consumption)
Assume your trade-in gives you 4 mpg better (far more than the minimum of 1 mpg required for Cash-for-clunkers). That's about 16% = 80 gallons / year saved.
So 80 gallons saved to get to 1294 = a break even of 16.175 years (best case).
However, many people only keep a car for 5-10 years (meaning the new car is always a loss). If they were going to keep their car an extra 5 years before they traded in, then you lost 894 gallons of oil (and pollutants) for each cash for clunkers car.
Lastly, that was assuming that the new car in 5 years wasn't any more efficient than the car they bought today (but with new EPA standards coming in, thats unlikely). So if we'd been patient and people had waiting a few years, the new cars would be cleaner still -- so you not only would have saved the 894 gallons wasted (over 5 years), but you would have hit the natural trade-in cycle, and someone probably would have bought an even MORE efficient car on their own.
Plus to do this program you had to what? Tax or borrow. If you hadn't have done that, that money would be doing something a lot more efficient on it's own then burning oil for Watermelon's egos (green on the outside, red on the inside). Imagine if that $3B had been left creating jobs instead of being a burden on the economy.
Mike: your family is killing the planet! so once you off your firstborn, maybe we can talk about it!
Ah, but I've already atoned for my child's environmental sins, Al Gore-style. I'm having several third-world children offed to offset the impact of my own.
@ransom147
It doesn't have to be "effective" if the government acts quickly enough.
On a side note, I thought this quote was hilarious.
I'd like to thank all the other people in the country who helped my daughter get a new car.
link
Mike:
child offsets! brilliant!
beesinthebrain:
i think i missed some sarcasm in your first comment.
One can only hope that most of the "clunkers" would have been destined for the junkyard in the near future anyway.
I'm smellin' a lot of if comin' off of this plan.
Unfortunately, the CFC program requires your clunker be fewer than 25 years of age.
How's that in the irony department, especially considering the stated/not stated goal of the plan is to reduce CO2? Hell, this plan might even get more support (or at least less complaining from me) if they were taking real old cars off the market. You know, the ones that really got poor gas mileage and were actually on their way to the junkyard.
Did you guys know that the 1987 Honda CRX was rated for 57 miles per gallon? 57. Fifty seven...schfifty seven miles per gallon. This plan is the biggest joke to come out of Washington since something five minutes before it.
Sue Denim,
You fail at both math and facts. First, you need to account for the fact that most of the cars traded in have less than 20% of their useful life left. That takes your 1294 gallons down to not more than 259, or about a 3 year payback. Second, if you compare the average trade in to the average new car bought under the program, you'll see an increase in efficiancy of about 50%, so the energy payback is even quicker. Look at the top cars purchased under the program: Focus, Civic, Carolla, Prius, Escape, Camry. Not exactly anything known as a gas guzzler. I don't dispute that the program is a net loss, but let's be honest and accurate with our analysis.
Unfortunately for me, I sold my old Ford van last fall. Oh, well, no OPM for me.
So what I'm hearing is, it was a bill they needed to sell on different goals than the stated goals within the bill text... to get re-elected.
And this is good legislation.
I hope you are not getting the "good legislation" in anything I wrote...since that would require very poor reading skills.
First, you need to account for the fact that most of the cars traded in have less than 20% of their useful life left.
[citation needed]
. Second, if you compare the average trade in to the average new car bought under the program, you'll see an increase in efficiancy of about 50%, so the energy payback is even quicker.
[citation needed]
So, how does this sound as the way to approach analyzing the environmental benefit of this abomination:
(1) Compare the average MPG of the cars traded in with the cars bought, and multiply by the number of cars bought. That's your maximum possible benefit.
(2) Reduce the benefit to reflect the number of these cars that these buyers would have bought anyway.
(3) Reduce the benefit again to reflect the energy budget lost when useful cars were destroyed (Sue Denim's point, above).
(4) Reduce the benefit again to reflect the increased driving that will occur when people have new cars that are nicer and cheaper to drive.
(5) Reduce the number of years that you can claim a benefit for to reflect the expected useful life of the cars that were traded in.
Does that about cover it?
I hope you are not getting the "good legislation" in anything I wrote...since that would require very poor reading skills.
Excellent, we're all back in agreement then. CFC is epic fail.
Does that about cover it?
Pretty much. Except for the intangibles about perverted incentives and the entire program being a general cash transfer from the productive sectors to the unproductive sectors, leaving the productive sectors with less buying power than they had before. At best your results there will be a wash. Add in a little economic thermodynamics, and it's still a loss due to friction and other issues between the money changing hands.
Our family has a 95 Ford Windstar that occasionally stops on the road. Does anyone know if it's eligible for this program? Can I use the vouchers for non hybrids?
strike through16 years agoWasn't Mr. President in Elkhart, Indiana today? You know, the place where all those fuel-efficient RVs are made?
Paul,
I don't know if I would say we are in agreement.
The reasons you don't like the bill seem much different than the reasons I don't like the bill.
But...whatever.
New World Dan,
Please give us proof that only 20% life was left in the car. (I think 50% is more realistic). But the gigajeues is to create and recycle a car (which is like 66%/33%). Which means like 50% of 66% = 33% to create + 33% to detroy, you're still at 66% of the number I used. But wait - that only accounts for the old car, you still need to produce the new car -- which is 66% more to create.... (the cost of destruction comes much later). So if anything I was conservative by not factoring in costs of two cars.
I did see that some of the top cars were more efficient cars, but a lot weren't. Since the most open administration in history (that won't release things that most other administrations have like their school records, Cash-for-cliunkers numbers, their birth certificate,etc), we don't know. I think your 50% number is smoking crack as an average. I'd be shocked if it was more than 25%... but then again, the 12K miles number seemed way high to me too. I drive under 8K, and people that drive "clunkers" probably drive far less than 12K a year.
If we massage the new numbers -- 22% more for energy - 10% better MPG + 33% less miles driven, if anything I was conservative on my estimates. And I still didn't factor in that if we waited another 5 years the cars would have been more efficient still, none of that is transportation costs of the cars, energy spent by workers to sell them, government to create this craptastic program, advertising energy, and so on. I also didn't factor in that newer cars use more aluminium which takes far more energy than older steel cars to create/recycle -- by a significant amount. Looking at the true energy costs would be lots worse.
It is just another example of the inexorable stupidity of government. Virtually everything and anything government does is stupid in this way. If a program is intended to help the poor, you can bet your life that it will ultimately harm the poor and help those who don't need help. In this case government is at cross purposes. They want to remove "gas guzzlers" from the road while at the same time wanting Detroit to build and sell new cars to replace them - the amount of energy used to build and run each new car is orders of magnitude more than any gas guzzler would use over the course of its remaining lifetime. And then there is the energy expended to destroy each other evil cars.
but don't you people understand???!! the cost of doing nothing would be catastrophic!!!
The good analogy is this:
How about I pay you $400K for that $200K house if you move into a new more "energy efficient" house. But you have to burn the old one down.
Does that sound like it increases value, efficiency, or does anything but waste money?
Sue,
It is a poor analogy.
The program for homes would involve upgrading the energy efficiency...so to use the favorite example around here...
You would give a credit for replacing the windows with more energy efficient windows...and recycle the materials from the old windows.
I would like to point out that despite this being a poor bill, the idea is not as bad as it is being portrayed here.
If the car is going to be replaced anyway, an incentive to replace it with a more fuel efficient choice can induce an incremental change in the profile of the fleet.
The idea here is not to induce people to buy a car they wouldn't have purchased. The idea is to provide an incentive to make a different choice on a car that they would have purchased anyway.
And it is important to also point out that the broken windows fallacy does not apply in the way John implies above.
It may apply in the sense that Sue Denim suggests in her posts, however.
It wouldn't have to, if properly implemented, but the program implemented in this bill may be vulnerable to the criticism.
My only point is that if you take the Bible straight, as I'm sure many of Reasons readers do, you will see a lot of the Old Testament stuff as absolutely insane. Even some cursory knowledge of Hebrew and doing some mathematics and logic will tell you that you really won't get the full deal by just doing regular skill english reading for those books.
is good