One Way to Cut Costs

Cash-strapped Michiganders travel on a gravel road:

More than 20 of the state's 83 counties have reverted deteriorating paved roads to gravel in the last few years, according to the County Road Association of Michigan. The counties are struggling with their budgets because tax revenues have declined in the lingering recession.

Montcalm County converted nearly 10 miles of primary road to gravel this spring.

The county estimates it takes about $10,000 to grind up a mile of pavement and put down gravel. It takes more than $100,000 to repave a mile of road.

Reverting to gravel has happened in a few other states but it is most typical in Michigan. At least 50 miles have been reverted in the state in the past three years.

Comments

[Warren]

It takes more than $100,000 to repave a mile of road.
100k/mi? That's higher than I would have guessed.

[David]

The WSJ had a piece on Detroit today -- no supermarket chains, no bookstore chains, only 4 Starbucks...

[SugarFree]

100k/mi? That's higher than I would have guessed.

Yeah, you'd think that the government as the largest consumer of roadwork would be in a position to demand a volume discount from the concrete and asphalt industries.

[FrBunny]

My neighborhood has evidently decided to split the difference and just let the paved roads naturally deteriorate into gravel. $0 / mile!

[Tricky Prickears]

...be in a position to demand a volume discount from the concrete and asphalt industries.

"Why build one, when you can build two at double the cost?"

[Xeones]

My neighborhood has evidently decided to split the difference and just let the paved roads naturally deteriorate into gravel.

Say, mine too! It's a race to see whether this happens before the whole road falls into the Elizabeth River.

[Hugh Akston]

Notice the word choice: It takes more than $100,000 to repave a mile of road.

Takes. Not costs. Since low cost is not a primary consideration on those rare occasions when multiple contractors' bids are considered, I imagine there is a significant margin to be made for providing this kind of service to gov't clients.

[Atanarjuat]

It's actually better for water quality to have a permeable surface vs paved because it reduces runoff. Kind of like how abandoning Detroit neighborhoods is good for wildlife.

[Tulpa]

I wonder how much union contracts have to do with this. ie, whether there are fewer restrictions on who they can hire to revert to gravel than to pave.

That would be massively messed up, but par for the course in your average blue state.

[Brandon]

I'm laying over in Detroit this Saturday on the way from Orlando to DC. Does this mean if asked I have to admit to having visited the city?

It's a crying shame I only have an hour between flights. Simply not enough time for a sightseeing tour.

[Bramblyspam]

50 miles out of how many thousands of miles of paved road in the state? That can't be more than a tiny fraction of a percent - most likely in places where very few people drive in the first place. This actually sounds like it might be a very sensible cost-cutting move.

[brotherben]

A decent asphalt overlay down here will last for 8-10 years on heavily traveled roads with very little if any required maintenance. A gravel road in those 8-10 years wil have to be regraded and have additional rock. I am curious what the long term maintenance cost is for gravel.

(I worked for a few years for an asphalt paving company.)

[SugarFree]

Brandon,

Weed covered lots are actually part of a fractal set. If you seen one you've seen them all. Just mentally scale one up to city size.

Seriously, though... every time I've laid over in Detroit for an hour I've had to run to another terminal and just barely made the flight. Prepare for a sprint just in case.

[Madbiker]

And while Michigan is allowing its roads to revert to gravel, Toledo residents are getting tickets for parking on their unpaved driveways. Via AP:

"TOLEDO, Ohio - Residents of Toledo, Ohio, are complaining that they received $25 tickets for parking their vehicles in their own driveways.

Mayor Carty Finkbeiner (FINK'-by-ner) says he stands by the citations handed out last week by the Division of Streets, Bridges and Harbor. He says the tickets were issued under a city law against parking on unpaved surfaces, including gravel driveways.

During a news conference Monday, Finkbeiner ignored a reporter's question of whether the crackdown and fines were related to the city's budget crisis.

The three-term mayor faces a recall vote in November. Critics have claimed he's wasted city money.

City Councilman D. Michael Collins calls the ticketing "Mickey Mouse nonsense." He has told residents he'll try to have the citations rescinded."

[Isaac Bartram]

Warren et al, the comparison is off in a lot of ways, too.

The 100,000 will get you get you about an inch and a half of asphalt put down and includes all the preparation. That is removing the old asphalt plus patching base failures, which you get a lot of in MI with the freeze thaw cycle and all.

Properly done that road should last about ten years, though again roads take a beating in winter so there's some maintenance necessary.

The problem with any savings on the gravel road is that that work has to be redone nearly every single year to anything approaching a decent travel surface. Not necessarily the whole thing but a gravel road does need to have a grader pass over it at least three to four times a year and new gravel has to be added at least once a year.

For roads with low volume maybe some savings over time, high volumes not likely, plus a lot of pissed off motorists with cracked windshields.

[FrBunny]

City Councilman D. Michael Collins calls the ticketing "Mickey Mouse nonsense."

Do not fuck with Michael Collins.

[Xeones]

Simply not enough time for a sightseeing tour.

Let alone hunting deer and bear among the ruins.

[brotherben]

Madbiker, residents of Montgomery Alabama have started getting tickets for parking in their yard. I'll find a link if requested.

[Isaac Bartram]

As brotherben observed roads do stand up better in the south where we have no freeze/thaw cycle.

And for those who might not be aware, and asphalt road is not just asphalt on top of dirt.

The asphalt has to be placed on a carefully prepared base of either gravel or crushed rock (there are other base materials as well).

The quality of the finished road depends a whole lot more on the proper grading and compaction of the roadbase than it does on the asphalt surface.

And to those who asked, no, profit margins are not significantly different in government contracting over private work (ie roads vs parking lots).

Oh, and SF's little joke made me chuckle.

[hmm]

Per the permeable surface comment. The MSD (Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer District) has started charging everyone for non permeable surface area here. It wouldn't a bad idea for service if they didn't receive government money and a ton of perks at tax payer expense, now they are double dipping into people's pockets.

For roads with low volume maybe some savings over time, high volumes not likely, plus a lot of pissed off motorists with cracked windshields.
Easily solved if you don't ride someone's ass. If do decide to ride someone's ass you deserve the crack.

Most roads here are chipsealed. It's like driving in a slushy until the rock finally gets mashed into the tar, of course traffic does this for free.

[Rimfax]

Virginia used to lay gravel and pour tar over low volume rural roads. No idea how long it lasted, but my impression was that they only seemed to redo it every couple of years.

A decade or so ago, they started paving all of them and I couldn't help but wonder how the economics of it played out.

Virginia is right-to-work, so the labor costs may or may not be union-burdened.

[Lost_In_Translation]

How long until I-475 around Flint becomes gravel?

[Brandon]

Seriously, though... every time I've laid over in Detroit for an hour I've had to run to another terminal and just barely made the flight. Prepare for a sprint just in case.

That's nice. It's not even an hour. It's 39 minutes.

Same carrier though, so I'll wear comfortable shoes and cross my fingers.

[rascal]

no your stupid!

[ed]

I'm laying over in Detroit this Saturday on the way from Orlando to DC.

Orlando to DC via Detroit? That's diabolically twisted.

[Isaac Bartram]

It's actually better for water quality to have a permeable surface vs paved because it reduces runoff. Kind of like how abandoning Detroit neighborhoods is good for wildlife.

Actually, no, gravel roads are rather bad for water quality. The erosion that occurs due to the lack of hard surfacing results in a lot of siltation in streams and wetlands. Generally not good for proper flow and or littoral vegetation.

hmm and Rimfax, what you are describing is known as surface treatment. It is a very good low cost alternative to hot mix asphalt from a plant. It usually is better if the surface is rolled after putting down the "road metal" but letting traffic do the work is OK although the the town engineer is likely to get a whole lot of calls from irate motorists about the tar that they can't get off their cars.

[rascal]

I was driving from pixburgh to aspines and I got a call from the nurse. She said she said I know what its like to be dead and I was like I stopped taking the risperdal ok? She was like you need to take it and I was in Iowa ghoing like 120mph down !-80I. So I tolda her IMMA FLYING DELTA DEMON! PILL ME UP, BITCH!

then I hunged the fucker up.

[Ted]

I am from Detroit. The city sucks (suburbs are nice though) but there are grocery chains and there is a Border bookstore right downtown so I have no clue what the WSJ is talking about. In fact there is a massive grocer called the Eastern Market that people from all over Metro Detroit go to.

[Isaac Bartram]

I'm laying over in Detroit this Saturday on the way from Orlando to DC.

Orlando to DC via Detroit? That's diabolically twisted.

You want diabolically twisted, try this!

Orlando to Detroit to Osaka, Japan to Sydney, Australia (and back the same way).

That's how NorthWest flew me about 15 years ago.

Got to stay in the same terminal in Detroit going out but had to come in through another to clear customs coming back. Had to go outside in Detroit in February with no winter coat to get to the domestic termanal for my Orlando flight. Fucking near froze.

[David]

Ted, the article says that Borders closed this month, and that no national grocery chain operates in Detroit. And that 30% of Detriot residents are on food stamps. I'm glad you have a good grocer, but I think it's pretty shocking that no national chain wants a store there.

[I, Kahn O\'Clast]

Gravel roads cannot be plowed so they suck big time if winter snows get compacted/thaw/re-freeze. It is true that they are less slick on an initial snow, but over the course of a winter they can be a real drag.

I put in a more than half-mile driveway. Grading, crowning, swales, and topping for $2,500. The real savings came from going to an area where the state was re-paving part of the highway and we were able to get the dug up asphalt for cheap. We dumped that down on the drive and dove the grader over it until we had a nice surface. The more I drive on it, the better it gets.

[Isaac Bartram]

Since low cost is not a primary consideration on those rare occasions when multiple contractors' bids are considered,...

Umm, not sure what you mean here. Absent some legitimate reason the low bidder is always awarded the contract when bids are requested. And practically every government agency in the country requires that construction contracts be let through competitive bidding.

[J sub D]

I'm laying over in Detroit this Saturday on the way from Orlando to DC. Does this mean if asked I have to admit to having visited the city?

You're at Metro airport. It ain't even close to the city. You're in Romulus.

[J sub D]

I am from Detroit. The city sucks (suburbs are nice though) but there are grocery chains and there is a Border bookstore right downtown so I have no clue what the WSJ is talking about. In fact there is a massive grocer called the Eastern Market that people from all over Metro Detroit go to.

I live in the city. There are no major grocery chains in the city. The last two (one Kriger's and one Farmer Jack bugged out a year or so ago. There are numerous independent groceries in the city, most of them are owned by Chaldeans. The produce sections have less variety, but quality fresh produce is on the shelves. Prices are higher due to operating costs including taxes, inventory shrinkage and the some other issues too complicated to explain. Eastern Market does not sell to the gfeneral public during the work week. It's a distribution center only M-F.

The Borders in the Compuware building is closed. They are selling the fixtures as we comment. I know this because I walked past it yesterday evening.

[Isaac Bartram]

I put in a more than half-mile driveway. Grading, crowning, swales, and topping for $2,500.

This is meaningless without the dimensions, ie width of pavement, depth of base, thickness of asphalt etc.

A driveway that you and family members drive on a couple of toimes a day is a totally different animal from a public road that carries thousands of cars plus trucks a day.

Somebody else pulled that "why does it cost so much to repave I-95 when my driveway only cost $X?" the other day too.

It's sort of the same reason it cost more per sqare foot to build the Empire State building than your house.

[domoarrigato]

Most roads here are chipsealed. It's like driving in a slushy until the rock finally gets mashed into the tar, of course traffic does this for free.

Well not exactly free. While slushy, your tires throw the rocks like crazy resulting in chipped windows and paint aplenty for the involuntary roadworks crew (you driving your SUV) So the cost is distributed to the users

[raszcal]

why do you pill me up buttercup?

[J sub D]

I shopuld point out that Wayne State University has a Barnes and Noble. Wayne Road a block west of Woodward.

[Warren]

There's no link to the WSJ article, but the claim that there are no bookstores or grocery stores makes no sense. Detroit sprawls across five counties! It's true, that when I lived in East Michigan I was distressed at the grocery options, but then they built a Kroger.

So the article can't mean the greater Detroit area, it must be restricted to like three blocks down town. And just how many national grocery chains are there. The best grocery chain in the universe is Wegmans, and they only operate in NY and the East Coast between NYC and DC.

Here in Hickville MO, we have a Kroger, but it's a circa 1976 Kroger. The Walmart is actually better for most stuff, including produce! A national chain is neither necessary nor sufficient for good groceries.

As for bookstores, I don't know. I could see them folding up. Most of the people in Detroit were illiterate when there were lots of jobs. Got to figure anybody that could read the writing on the wall, left Michigan months ago.

[The Angry Optimist]

you know, there was a time where I would have positively wet myself laughing over the fact that Detroit closed its lone chain bookstore and has no chain grocery stores.

But anymore, it seems unfair. Picking on Detroit just isn't fun anymore. It can't fight back. It's like the retarded kid.

[Episiarch]

I'm trying to figure out rascal's game but I'm failing. Which intrigues me. Well played, rascal. Well played.

[raszcal]

I just came in my mouth.

[J sub D]

Warren, they are referring to the city limits, not the metropolitan area. You can find chain grocery stores, big box retailers, mega bookstores and large shopping malls in the inner ring suburbs. Sadly, except fot the Barnes and Noble I mentioned above, these are all absent from the city proper.

[T]

Picking on Detroit just isn't fun anymore. It can't fight back. It's like the retarded kid.

Having vacationed in Detroit (yes, I'm insane, move along) I tend to agree. The city could really be something, but is so completely dysfunctional there's no chance of it ever happening. The city government and the residents actively impede progress. They seem to think it's better to fight over the scraps than try to fix it. So it continues to sink deeper into a peculiar little version of hell of its own making. Sad, really.

[I, Kahn O\'Clast]

Yes, Isaac, of course. It would probably have cost me 4 or 5 times as much to have made it a full two plus lane affair with a deep bed capable of handling coal trucks. I was more concerned with the general sucky nature of gravel rather than hardtop in a wintery state.

[Cool Hand Luke]

Virginia is right-to-work, so the labor costs may or may not be union-burdened.

Could be chain gangs.

[Robert]

At least one road map I have somewhere legends some surfaces as "bituminous pavement, low type". Anyone know what process that describes?

The side streets we used to have in NYC seemed to fit one description upthread. They were what seemed to be a closely packed matrix of asphalt bits with cement. They eroded from the curb toward the crown, so the gutters always had a supply of asphalt gravel; you could always hear cars being parked. I suppose this could've been the end process of erosion of hot-laid tar, but I don't think so because I don't recall deep potholes; however, there were sometimes long thin cracks, which would speak to a hot-lain surface.

[J sub D]

The city could really be something, but is so completely dysfunctional there's no chance of it ever happening. The city government and the residents actively impede progress. They seem to think it's better to fight over the scraps than try to fix it. So it continues to sink deeper into a peculiar little version of hell of its own making. Sad, really.

You've nailed it. The only thing missing in your critique is the obsession with the long ago Detroit of 1.9 million and ignoring the coming reality of a Detroit of 0.5 million.
Among many groups I'd like to throttle, is the historic prezervationists lacking financial resources. It has taken nine fucking years to tear down an abandoned city owned baseball stadium. It should finally be done before the end of July.

[Isaac Bartram]

Fair enough, IKO'C.

It's just that one just tires of some arguments (which I realize you weren't making).

There are many things that government could do more cheaply, but building roads isn't one.

And while we're there, yes, this road project really does have to take eighteen months. Oh we could probably do it in six if we could close the road and tell all you assholes to stay home and not try to go anywhere near where it is. And we'd knock a bunch off the cost too If we didn't have to do it all chopped up and piecemeal so we can keep a road open for you to drive on.

[T]

The only thing missing in your critique is the obsession with the long ago Detroit of 1.9 million and ignoring the coming reality of a Detroit of 0.5 million.

I'm just a tourist, so I miss the nuances. That's what you local types are good for.

[Joel]

The Angry Optimist | June 16, 2009, 12:06pm | #
you know, there was a time where I would have positively wet myself laughing over the fact that Detroit closed its lone chain bookstore and has no chain grocery stores.

But anymore, it seems unfair. Picking on Detroit just isn't fun anymore. It can't fight back. It's like the retarded kid.

I'm the same way. Born and raised in Detroit, went through the riots and attendant bullshit, the diaspora to the suburbs, the mayor-for-life. Moved away, and delighted for years in stories about the collapse of the city. Several years ago a Jack-In-The-Box hamburger joint opened, and some newsie noticed (and published) that it was the first retail opening in the entire city of Detroit in ten years. Don't know if it's true, but it's plausible. When the RenCen opened all that empty office space, some wag asked, 'How they gonna get all that plywood all the way up there?' That sort of thing used to just convulse me.

But now it's just sad. It was my hometown and within my lifetime it's become a heap of ruins, and though I have no nostalgia and very little sympathy I find I've also run out of schadenfreude.

[Isaac Bartram]

Robert @ 1:29pm | #

"bituminous pavement, low type" is more than likely the "surface treatment" or "chipseal" referred to above.

Also, again the lesson.

Hot mix asphalt is not just tar, it is made by mixing "graded aggregate" (crashed stone or gravel in various sizes - usually half inch or less - plus sand) mixed with asphalt cement (a particualr product of the cracking of petroeum just below bunker oil). Actually the amount of asphalt varies from 5-10 pecent by weight depending what the mix is for.

What you are seeing on those side streets is the degradation of the asphalt pavement. This is due to oxidation and weathering as well as, occassionally, fuel spills.

The "cement" (I assume you mean "concrete") you see is likely the course aggregate getting separated from the asphalt cement and fines (which are the "asphalt bits" you see).

"the end process of erosion of hot-laid tar" is a perfectly good way to describe whats going on for everyday purposes that a pavement engineer would probably correct you.

But I need to get to work. I've got a road to design. 🙂

[LubiWanKenubi]

Those gravel roads are gonna be tough on all the wee new hybrids.