Memorial Day B-List

To round out all the easy to remember ones, a variety of views on other engagements in American military history:

Canadian folk singers gloat about their fellow British subjects' several victories over the United States in the War of 1812.

Drown out the sound of triumphant Canadians with "The Battle of New Orleans." Choose among versions by Johnny Horton, Dolly Parton, Johnny Cash, Skiffle king Lonnie Donegan, and a fiddle-dee-dee band at the Danny Mann in Killarney, or listen to them all!

The Battle of the Thames, another win in the War of Canadian Aggression, where Tecumseh died.

Ambrose Bierce's none-too-subtle but moving short story "Chickamauga," a rewarding ten-minute read.

The U.S. Marine Corps goes up in force against Bolsheviks, for the first and last time, in the North Russia Campaign of 1918-1919.

Not-forgotten but probably not sufficiently appreciated Battle of the Frozen Chosin in the Korean War.

Comments

[Umbriel]

Gotta fix your Chosin link. It duplicates the one for the North Russia Campaign.

[Captain Spaulding]

The

[Captain Spaulding]

The alternate version of "The Battle of New Orleans" which Horton recorded for the British/Commonwealth markets. Replaces "Rebels" for "British" and changes the third person for first person (and vice versa) for the "Ol' Hickory sez" part.

[Ken Shultz]

The Johnny Horton version of the "The Battle of New Orleans" is the only version that matters. ...that still matters.

"Not-forgotten but probably not sufficiently appreciated Battle of the Frozen Chosin in the Korean War."

Yeah, I've been thinking about North Korea lately. I'd like to thank the Bush Administration this Memorial Day for making us safe from nuclear weapons.

Nice job.

I have to confess too that the first thing I think of when I think of the Korean War is The Steel Helmet.

[Mister DNA]

The Johnny Horton version of the "The Battle of New Orleans" is the only version that matters. ...that still matters.

Have you heard the original version by Jimmie Driftwood?

[David E. Gallaher]

Thanks to our Constitution, sparsely populated states have always been over-represented. For reasons of rah-rah, stem-winding stump speeches, police and the military have as well.
A "standing army" has always been a bad idea, and "getting back to normalcy" after Wilson's WWI, meant making our army go back to just standing.
"Standing" has always been a tragic euphemism.
What we really need is an "In case of emergency, break glass" army.
I know, I know. It was called "The Minute-Men."
Can we put the perverted genie back behind glass?
Thomas Jefferson couldn't, so I'm not hopeful.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Thanks, Umbriel. Fixed.

[the innominate one]

"A "standing army" has always been a bad idea..."

Which is probably why the U.S. Constitution forbids it.

I like the Johnny Horton version, which I heard years ago. I'll have to listen to the others later. The only thing possibly better is the comments at the Johnny Horton video.

A taste:

"ol The United States did not lose that war anyone who says that is a fucking Retared who needs to go back to school and learn what happned for real not some BULL SHIT that a eouropian retared book writer wrote be couse you mad we Kicked your FUCKING retarted ASS"

um, yeah. OK.

[the innominate one]

even better:

SINK THE BISMARCK ~ sung by Johnny Horton

[hmm]

You better be careful or Canada will be demanding an apology. They are a sensitive bunch and don't take kindly to you yanks making fun of them. You might have to go all wishy washy and tell them your sorry for being funny like some other guy did.

[Mister DNA]

The Best Johnny Horton song? The pro-incest "All Grown Up".

[Brian Sorgatz]

Pro-incest? I think the "Hey Daddy" chorus is metaphorical, like the 1950s expression "Daddy-O." Or are you telling an ethnic joke about the rural poor? Hee-haw!

[Kolohe]

The alternate version of "The Battle of New Orleans" which Horton recorded for the British/Commonwealth markets

Dedicated to his brother Tim, no doubt.

[Aresen]

The Battle of New Orleans never bothered me much. The US clearly won that (even though the War had been technically over for 15 days).

Sink the Bismarck, however, totally pisses me off, because so many Americans think they won the fight. I realize Americans are often a little hazy on history, but the US didn't even enter WWII until 7 months later,

(As one British sailor in a New York bar on December 7, 1941 indelicately put it it: "I see the two yellow nations are going to fight.")

[The Last Thrice-Sayer]

"A "standing army" has always been a bad idea..."

Which is probably why the U.S. Constitution forbids it.

Using a citizen militia as the sole defense force for our country was a groundbreaking and revolutionary idea. It was also shown to be a terrible one in practice when the American militias got pwned during the War of 1812. On an otherwise level playing field, professional soldiers will crush citizen militias every time.

Imagine how WW2 and the Cold War would have gone if we had just a militia.

[Geoff Nathan]

For a somewhat different view of the battle referred to above, drop 99c on this Stan Rogers song about one of General Brock's commanders--a nice meditation on someone who didn't become famous:

MacDonnell on the Heights

[Warty]

Yo, fuck those gloating Canadian pricks.

The Battle of the Thames: William Henry Harrison kicks ass.

[Jack]

Tim Cavanaugh wrote: "Not-forgotten but probably not sufficiently appreciated Battle of the Frozen Chosin in the Korean War."

Actually, it was forgotten, at least by Hurley on *Lost*:

Dr. Chang: What year were you born?

Hurley: Uh, 1931.

Dr. Chang: So, you're 46?

Hurley: Uh, yeah.

Dr. Chang: You fought in the Korean War?

Hurley: There's no such thing?

[the innominate one]

TLTS: I doubt that the USSR was as deterred by our professional conventional forces as they were by the MAD doctrine.

I'm not saying we rely on militias, we could still have the reserves, who are professionally trained. In any case, my point stands: the constitution forbids a standing army (not so for the navy). Thus, we could still have a navy, the marines and air force in the form of naval aviators.

Or, we could amend the constitution. Or, just keep muddling along like we have been, with congress renewing the army every two years.

[Fascitis Necrotizante]

Might as well post The Ballad of Ira Hayes. The Townes Van Zandt version, which I like the best.

[robc]

On an otherwise level playing field, professional soldiers will crush citizen militias every time.

Which is why you never fight professional soldiers on a level playing field.

For example see, in as roughly historical order as I care to be right now:

David
American Revolution
Vietnam
Afghanistan
&
Afghanistan

[robc]

Imagine how WW2 and the Cold War would have gone if we had just a militia.

During an actual war, like WW2, you call up everyone you can and throw them in massive waves at Omaha beach and Guadalcanal. Most of them werent professional soldiers.

As far as the cold war goes, see my references to Vietnam and Afghanistan in my previous post.

[robc]

From here:

The political scientist Ivan Arregu?n-Toft recently looked at every war fought in the past two hundred years between strong and weak combatants. The Goliaths, he found, won in 71.5 per cent of the cases. That is a remarkable fact. Arregu?n-Toft was analyzing conflicts in which one side was at least ten times as powerful - in terms of armed might and population - as its opponent, and even in those lopsided contests the underdog won almost a third of the time. . . .

What happened, Arregu?n-Toft wondered, when the underdogs likewise acknowledged their weakness and chose an unconventional strategy? He went back and re-analyzed his data. In those cases, David's winning percentage went from 28.5 to 63.6. When underdogs choose not to play by Goliath's rules, they win, Arregu?n-Toft concluded, "even when everything we think we know about power says they shouldn't."

[Gary Glitter\'s Publicist]

Mister DNA, I had to add to your comments for "All Grown Up," one of the most disturbing songs I've ever heard. It was also recorded by by the pseudonymous Paul Raven, who went on to become Gary Glitter, of sports arena and child molestation fame. Life's funny sometimes.

[Elemenope]

Actually, it was forgotten, at least by Hurley on *Lost*

That exchange was hilarious, made better by Hurley already being awesome.

[Jim Bob]

I would just like to point out that Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie isn't really a *folk* group, by most definitions. They're more of a comedy group.

Seriously, is acoustic guitar backing the only qualification to be considered "folk" these days?

[thew83]

"Seriously, is acoustic guitar backing the only qualification to be considered "folk" these days?"

Due to the non-music-connoisseur general populace nowadays: yes.

Sort of a side note: I haven't been a fan of country for a long time, and one of the guys at work was listening to it the other day. This led me to the belief that "Country" is going to be the exact same thing as "Contemporary Adult Rock" in around ten years or so.

[affenkopf]

It was also shown to be a terrible one in practice when the American militias got pwned during the War of 1812. On an otherwise level playing field, professional soldiers will crush citizen militias every time.

Thank god the US had no standing army in 1812. Just think about how even more imperialist the US would have become after a decisive victory.

[Elemenope]

Not-forgotten but probably not sufficiently appreciated Battle of the Frozen Chosin in the Korean War.

It was a plot point in a cheesy Christopher Walken movie, so it is never forgotten.

[kingtoots]

Hey,
Look you yanks had 3 chances to conquer Canada and you failed.

You couldn't even get it together to conquer a few dune coons armed with rocks in the middle east. Not to mention Vietnam. What a joke, the most powerful nation in the world sent packing by some guys in pajamas.

Any time you guys want to throw down, come on up to the Great White North and you can get your asses handed to you again for the forth time.

Actually I was in the Militia in Canada and we did lots of ops with American forces. They were good guys. I had a great time with them. Not very bright, but lots of fun to party with.

Thats why I'm not surprised that you guys couldn't get it together in the middle east. The only guys that I had a bit of respect for were some Special Forces guys out of Fort Lewis and the Marines. The rest were as dumb as a sack of hammers.

To tell you some cold hard truths, the only thing that puts the fear of god into people is your air force. You would be surprised what being on the receiving end of an A10 will do to your belief in god.

Air superiority makes up for the failings of leadership and the quality of your troops.

[AmericaFuckYeah]

Okay I guess Canadians don't have much too gloat about in terms of military history so they have to find something. But it's a bit of a stretch to say that the US lost the war of 1812. It was pretty much a stalemate. The invasion of Canada was a failure but the end of result of the war was basically a draw with both sides winning and losing significant battles.

Also Canada wasn't even a country. Yeah their militias were involved but it was a war with the fledgling United States versus the mighty British Empire. The US managed to break away from mother England despite considerable odds and rise up to be the most powerful nation on it's own. Meanwhile Canada still has the queen on their coins. When exactly did they even become a real country? The 1950s?

[Beryl]

--== Matchcougar.C'om ==-- It's where Cougar (women who are mature, rich and experienced) and men who like them can meet.

[Aww]

Canadians are so adorable when they start talking about the war of 1812.

[Art-P.O.G. (Internet Tough Guy]

Any time you guys want to throw down, come on up to the Great White North and you can get your asses handed to you again for the forth time

!Canadian bragging/gloating(!)

Thats why I'm not surprised that you guys couldn't get it together in the middle east

Well, your generalizations about the US military are half incorrect and poor. Also, you act like the Brits and Canadians aren't/weren't in the Midlle East fighting with us. Naw. But your insinuation that every other nation that tried to fight a war in Afghanistan except the US has had rousing success rings true, especially upon further examination of history.

[kingtoots]

AmericaFuckYea,

Canada doesn't have much to gloat about militarily? I would say that we have more to be proud about militaryily than americans.

We've never lost a war that we have been in. Unlike you guys.

Art-P.O.G,

Oh, now you say that we are in the middle east fighting along side you. Why don't you tell that to your slack jawed countrymen like AmericaFuckYea, who seem to think that Canada doesn't have much to talk about militarily.

anyway, still love you americans. Half of my family is from there so no hard feelings. Just stick to things that you know about like eating and watching TV.

[Isaac Bartram]

The alternate version of "The Battle of New Orleans" which Horton recorded for the British/Commonwealth markets. Replaces "Rebels" for "British"...

They ended up playing both versions in Australia.

Actually it was not the anti-British lyrics that caused scandal in OZ. There was quite enough anti-British feeling locally for that to be an issue.

The problem was using the word "bloody" on the radio. In the 1950s, and even the early 1960s, that word was still a swearword which was simply not said in polite society. The fact that the song uses it in the sense of bloodstained and, also, a takeoff on the red coats of the British soldiers, didn't matter to the prudes. And, believe me, Australia was super prudish in the 1950s.

[Xeones]

When exactly did they even become a real country? The 1950s?

1982, actually.

kingtoots, you've got an awful lot of pride for a dude who is from basically America's hat. Ya hoser.

[R C Dean]

American Revolution

Won by the professional soldiers of Washington's army, not the local militias (although they certainly had a role).

Vietnam

Won by the professional soldiers of North Vietnam. The VC "militia"/guerrillas were effectively eradicated during Tet.

Afghanistan

The Soviets lost to guerrillas, no question.

&

Afghanistan

The US professional army, I guess, won the first round (although the use of locals and Special Forces doesn't really fit the model. The air support does, I suppose).

The second round is pretty much stalemated at this point.

I would add:

The Sri Lankan army just obliterated the Tamil Tiger guerrilla/militia force.

[Tim Cavanaugh]

Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie isn't really a *folk* group, by most definitions. They're more of a comedy group.

On the basis of the evidence it's a stretch to call them a comedy group either. Didn't Canadians used to be funny?

[ron]

Canadians were british subjects until the end of WW2 when FDR forced the British to give up their empire.