Libertarian Road Show Crew Arrested in Mississippi

Last month, Nick Gillespie interviewed Jason Talley and Pete Eyre for Reason.tv. The two libertarians had rented a mobile home, and planned to drive across the country to meet with fellow libertarians, interview figures in the libertarian movement (like Ron Paul, and Libertarian Party founder David Nolan), and report back on government abuses they encountered along the way. They were tracking their trip on the website motorhomediaries.com.

It looks like they've found one. It's not clear why, but they were apparently pulled over yesterday in Jones County, Mississippi. Passenger Adam Mueller attempted to videotape the traffic stop, and was arrested for doing so. It isn't clear what happened next, but Talley and Eyre were also eventually arrested, Eyre for possession of a beer in a dry county, and Talley for disorderly conduct, disobeying, and resisting arrest.

They're due to be arraigned tomorrow. These guys are very well-connected in libertarian legal circles. They're quite aware of their rights, and what they can and can't do during a traffic stop and detainment. I suspect the authorities in Jones County are about to realize that they harassed the wrong motorists.

Gillespie's interview with Eyre and Talley:

Comments

[gmatts]

"It's not clear why, but they were apparently pulled over yesterday in Jones County, Mississippi."

It's probably because the police officer's granddaddy and Tally and Eyre's granddaddies didn't know each other. It's that type of unfamiliarity with people "not-frum-'round-these-parts" that makes Mississippi so charming.

[Nick]

The frustrating part is that such officer indescretions usually result in an apology at best, but no education or reprimanding of anyone for anything and no chance of an examaination of the stupidity of relevant laws.

[phalkor]

how charming; but are our libertarian heroes up to the challenge?

Find out on the next episode of Libertarian Road Show!

I can't wait!

[R C Dean]

Err, as a former resident of a dry county, I can assure you that it is perfectly legal to own beer in one for your own personal consumption. You just can't sell beer in a dry county.

Unless this county still has capital-p Prohibition of alcohol. In which case, I'd love to take a look inside the fridge of the arresting officer.

[Hazel Meade]

This should be fun....

[Warren]

I suspect the authorities in Jones County are about to realize that they harassed the wrong motorists.

If by that you mean, After spending a night in the tank and a day in court the defendants will be free to go, then maybe. If you mean, there will be any consequences to the Jones County authorities, then you need to spend more time here.

[The Honorable Chamberlain Hall]

Mr. Gambini, the next words out of your mouth better be "guilty" or "not guilty." I don't want to hear commentary, argument, or opinion. I don't want to hear any facts or evidence relating to this case. If I hear anything other than "guilty" or "not guilty", you'll be in contempt. I don't even want to hear you clear your throat to speak. Now, how do your clients plead?

[robc]

Ute?

[Jeff P]

Riiight, nothing ever goes wrong for out-of-towners in Mississippi...
Connected or not, that's a pretty retarded move. Like wandering through Hell's Kitchen in the 70's to see if you get raped.

[MNG]

"They're quite aware of their rights"

Unless you are referring to the opposite of "left" in a directional sense you should understand that the term "right" has no meaning in Mississippi.

This is the state where police hung a man by the neck until he confessed to a crime and the state supreme court, knowing that, said "OK, fine by us." This happened in 1936, not 1536. The prosecutor in that case, who freely admitted the torture, was elected to the U.S. Senate by a majority of MS voters 13 times following the case, serving until 1995. What the fuck do you have to do to have the voters in MS fail to elect you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Mississippi

[sfb]

But there are no black libertarians MNG

[MNG]

sfb
While there are not many, there are some, despite all of the hard work of some of you guys...

[Paul]

My experience (not personal, mind you) is that the instant a cop walks up to you, if you videotape the encounter (and refuse to stop when he inevitably asks you to do so), you're going to spend a night in the pokey.

[sfb]

But I'm pretty sure any black libertarians in Mississippi would have been strung up a long time ago.

[The Angry Optimist]

well, I'm sure the superheroic Justice Department will ride into Mississippi on the back of the Fourteenth Amendment to make sure these guys' rights aren't violated, right MNG?

[MNG]

And you will usually find that a state that shits on black folks rights usually is not to good to any "uppity" group.

And while you libertarians have some problems, I'll give it you, you're quite uppity.

[Paul]

Err, as a former resident of a dry county, I can assure you that it is perfectly legal to own beer in one for your own personal consumption. You just can't sell beer in a dry county.

You ain't from 'round here, are ya boy?

[Paul]

And while you libertarians have some problems, I'll give it you, you're quite uppity.

Now, if only I were a woman, too.

[MNG]

TAO
Are you disparaging the often life threatening work of federal agents in that state to enforce the 14th Amendment and various civil rights laws?

[Brandon]

How convenient. Two libertarians on the lookout for governmental abuse manage to get themselves arrested in Mississippi for victimless crimes of which they're innocent. Sounds to me like a setup by Big Liberty. Always trying to undermine public confidence in the state. I suspect Big Liberty has sent in a team of big league lawyers and PR wizards to spin these lads as innocent victims. Don't get taken in. Big Liberty isn't looking out for you.

[The Angry Optimist]

I'm questioning the last time there was any "work" done in that arena.

And life-threatening? What, are the yokels plunking federal agents from the back of their pick-ups or something?

[Your Good Buddy Johnny Clarke]

Somebody remind me...why would any rational being want to go to Mississippi? To tour the catfish farms?

[Jozef]

"Talley and Eyre were also eventually arrested, Eyre for possession of a beer in a dry county"

Everywhere I looked, Jones County wasn't on the list of dry counties. Even the official state Web site lists Jones as a wet county.

"Err, as a former resident of a dry county, I can assure you that it is perfectly legal to own beer in one for your own personal consumption. You just can't sell beer in a dry county."

Some counties may prohibit even the transportation of alcohol, even if you're just passing through. I read up on that a long time ago, in order to know which places to avoid on my cross county trip.

[Paul]

Well, I mean they're not wearing shirts. Isn't that a prerequisite to get arrested on Cops?

[MNG]

I'll note TAO that how your beloved states rights dynamic worked in the case I cited.

State Supreme Court: "Sure, hang those Negroes to get confessions, fine by us."

State Political Process: "Good job man in getting those ni**ers! You've earned yourself a lifetime pass to the U.S. Senate!"

National Supreme Court: "Sorry, people have rights and you can't do that shit."

[Ironic]

Perhaps I should open a Wiccan themed, gay porn shop there.

[Paul]

Hmm "The Motorhome Diaries, Searching for Freedom in America"

Think they'll find any?

[MNG]

TAO
There was quite a history, not even over 40 years old in some cases, of local yokels plunking many a brave federal agent who went down into that cesspool to fight tyranny. I know that stuff isn't important or notable to you, but it happened.

In fact, there was quite a bit of heroic effort by federal agents during Reconstruction and in enforcing the 1871 Civil Rights Act. The locals not only tried to terrorize these agents with direct violence, but they used that good old technique, jury nullification to protect their "local values" by acquitting many a malefactor.

[The Angry Optimist]

again, I cite Gonzales v. Raich as a counterexample.

so, my supposed "dynamic" worked just as I'd like it work: protect fundamental, enumerated rights and stop there.

[Brandon]

Big Liberty will probably come up with a doctored video or audio recording, edited to portray the cops as abusive thugs, just as they did with the Campaign for Liberty staffer in Missouri. Big Liberty has nearly infinite resources. And they hide it all in offshore tax havens, so it can't be used to promote the public good.

[The Angry Optimist]

MNG, you made it sound like it was happening last week.

and we'll just see if the Justice Department decides that *these* rights are worth protecting.

[The Widow White]

"Riiight, nothing ever goes wrong for out-of-towners in Mississippi..."

I motocycled the deep south solo (I'm a Maryland native). Mississippi wasn't great, but to be fair it seemed relatively safe and modern. Alabama is hell on earth. I will never, ever go back there.

[MNG]

As to recent action by the Justice Department, I can remember about 10 years ago they went in and investigated numerous "suicides" by hanging of jail inmates in the great Cultural and Moral Hole in the Ground that is Mississippi.

But of course, you're against such federal intervention into local matters, so how can you complain "what have they done lately there?"

[Paul]

State Political Process: "Good job man in getting those ni**ers! You've earned yourself a lifetime pass to the U.S. Senate!"

National Supreme Court: "Sorry, people have rights and you can't do that shit."

I'm not gonna dive into a tit-for-tat in a states' rights debate, but this situation merely highlights how the actions of states, aside from any states' rights arguments, can't trump the U.S. Constitution. Well, unless you're in the crowd who keeps suggesting the Constitution doesn't apply to the states.

[sfb]

I got picked up once in Southern Georgia for Driving While Yankee.

[MNG]

What a counterexample: person stopped from growing pot=man whipped and hung.

You got me there, even Steven!

[The Angry Optimist]

Er, I'm not against federal action to protect certain fundamental liberties. Who are you arguing with again?

Look, you never answered my question last time we had this debate: why aren't you agitating for world government? It's the logical conclusion of your argument that the states are entitled to no sovereignty whatsoever.

[MNG]

You can't bring yourself praise the efforts of these feds, both in 1872 and 1965, to honor it as some truly great heroism in our nation's history?

You often say the problem with liberals is they think every day is Selma 1965. I'm starting to think your problem is that every day is not Selma, 1955...

[The Widow White]

"Somebody remind me...why would any rational being want to go to Mississippi? To tour the catfish farms?"

They have some exceptionally pretty women in Mississippi. And the people in Waveland, MS were very helpful when my bike broke down. Fixed it free-of-charge. Good people.

[The Angry Optimist]

with a narrow-minded view of what's at stake, yeah, you're right, they aren't even.

OTOH, if you view this as the broad concept of dynamic federalism > stagnant nationalism, then innovation in the War on Drugs is a no-brainer as a winner.

[DHS Thinks I\'m a Terrorist]

"Alabama is hell on earth. I will never, ever go back there."

What, in particular, did you find problematic. I have not been there since I was a small child so this is not a rhetorical question, I honestly am curious.

[MNG]

TAO
But I thought you were for states rights? I mean, the Mississippi Supreme Court heard this case. The Mississippi voters had a clear chance to address this stuff. Why have the feds intervening in this state matter, right?

Or did you not think through the many ramifications of that stupid shit you've spouted on states rights threads?

[MNG]

We don't want some distant, large government telling those Mississippi authorities what they have to do, right TAO? It's not hard to look up your comments on those threads ya know. Love technology.

[Episiarch]

"I'm Scooter, the band's Libertarian Road Show's road manager."

"Is he the man with the plan?"

"No, he's the man with the van!"

[The Angry Optimist]

I'm starting to think your problem is that every day is not Selma, 1955...

Because it isn't. Duh.

At some point you have to ask yourselves if the remedies that abrogate state sovereignty are no longer necessary. These remedies should not be designed to be permanent: they should be present until the problem is fixed, and resurrected as necessary.

[Naga Sadow, resident of Missis]

Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

Damn my state sucks!

[excuse me]

the great Cultural and Moral Hole in the Ground that is Mississippi

Let me guess -- you're from the Shining Temple of Elitist A-holes that is New York?

[The Widow White]

"I got picked up once in Southern Georgia for Driving While Yankee."

That's because Southern Georgia is really just an Alabama suburb. ;0)

[The Angry Optimist]

MNG - go do it then. I never said anything about wanting to repeal the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments. All I've ever said is that I favor, as much as possible, leaving issues to local governments rather than a one-size-fits-all policy dictated from Washington.

The fact that you cannot muddle through the nuance is not my department.

[Mister DNA]

My only interest in going to Mississippi or Alabama would be for the history - birthplace of Jimmie Rodgers, Hank Senior, Elvis, Howlin' Wolf, McKinley Morganfield, et cetera.

[MNG]

By the way, there is no "fundamental, enumerated right" against self incrimination through torture that applies to the States in the U.S. Constitution.

Thank God for those "judicial activists" eh TAO?

[SKR]

They haven't even painted the motorhome gold & black yet. That's when the real fun starts.

[DHS Thinks I?m a Terrorist.]

"Let me guess -- you're from the Shining Temple of Elitist A-holes that is New York?"

It does seem there is some regionalist prejudice still alive and well in America. Problems exist, certainly, but compared to the problems in the New York City police department . . . . .

[MNG]

"All I've ever said is that I favor, as much as possible, leaving issues to local governments rather than a one-size-fits-all policy dictated from Washington."

Why can't you come out against this instance of not leaving issues to the local government in Mississippi and the use of a a one-size-fits-all-policy dictated from Washington (a federal court no less!)?

I mean, care to argue that the local government didn't have a chance to address it? That this wasn't a one size fits all policy dictated from a Washington federal body?

Is it because, in its ramifications, that's a bunch of stupid bullshit?

[The Angry Optimist]

MNG. Fifth Amendment:

No person...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

[Hammered Head]

I am sure that they have some unsolved murders that Drs Hayne & West can link them to.

[MNG]

I live in Maryland Home of the Elitists, not New York, Temple of the Elitists.

[The Angry Optimist]

Why can't you come out against this instance of not leaving issues to the local government in Mississippi and the use of a a one-size-fits-all-policy dictated from Washington (a federal court no less!)?

What issue? Brown v. Mississippi? I mean, we're hashing over a 70 year old case?

I don't have an argument against federal intervention in that case, because I support federal intervention when it comes to fundamental rights of life, liberty and property. Follow along.

[MNG]

The Fifth Amendment applies to the states TAO?

You're for the theory of incorporation huh?

[Jason]

It's ironic that a group of Libertarians were arrested in the Free State of Jones.

[The Angry Optimist]

I'm still waiting to hear why world government is not the logical outcome of your POV, MNG. I mean, after all, why should those ignorant yokels in the backwaters of Africa or the Middle East be allowed to deprive people of their life, liberty or property?

[The Angry Optimist]

You're for the theory of incorporation huh?

The theory? It's settled law. I think that the Bill of Rights was meant to set ground rules for the states in the first place.

[MNG]

So, like me, you think states can decide things as long as they don't decide to do anything fundamentally wrong, but if they do, then the feds are welcome to come in an overrule the states.

Kinda waters that concept down, eh?

Nice to know we are both fellow States Righters!

[The Widow White]

"What, in particular, did you find problematic. I have not been there since I was a small child so this is not a rhetorical question, I honestly am curious."

Overt racism. Everywhere. I was asking directions from a guard at a factory gate when a pretty woman pulled up in a classic Cutlas convertable. Seated beside her was a black man. She said they were looking for jobs and was hoping he could provide applications. He told here all hiring was done via the unemployment office in town. After they drove away I said to the guard, "Man! That was one pretty girl." The guard replied, "She sure was. But I don't know what she was doing with THAT black moterfucker."

I could relate stories like this all day.

I discussed this with an Indonesian college student when I was in Cleveland, Mississippi and he also remarked that Mississipi is really okay, but Alabama is like a trip back in time to the days of Jim Crow.

On the plus side, unlike here up north, in Alabama, when a white guy passes a young black male on the sidewalk, the kid doesn't spit.

[MNG]

"I'm still waiting to hear why world government is not the logical outcome of your POV, MNG."

I bet you'd like to change the subject!

[MNG]

"I think that the Bill of Rights was meant to set ground rules for the states in the first place."

So the "Congress shall" language in the 1st meant Congresses of each state...

"It's settled law." And so I ask again, you agree with it?

[The Angry Optimist]

Look, MNG, here's the issue: I'm for constraining state sovereignty as little as possible, because federalism is the bedrock value upon which the Constitution sits. Full stop. I'm not as eager as you to chuck state sovereignty out the window. AFAICT, you'd be glad having the states as administrative districts of the federal government.

[The Angry Optimist]

So the "Congress shall" language in the 1st meant Congresses of each state...

Maybe. Look at the text of the other amendments:

Sixth Amendment:

n all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed

It's nonsense to think that only applied to federal crimes, given there was only one federal crime at the time.

[The Angry Optimist]

I bet you'd like to change the subject!

It's not a change of subject. It's the logical conclusion of your thought process. You can no more argue for national sovereignty, based on your previous statements.

[MNG]

Well duh, as I said in my last discussion of this I think states should be able to make all the different policy they want except when it comes to important rights.

"It's nonsense to think that only applied to federal crimes, given there was only one federal crime at the time."

I'm not sure that's true (you're thinking treason I assume), but not convincing even if. They were going to make many more, and the knew it, so that's not the best argument.

[John Galt]

"Possession of a Beer in a Dry County"? My god, the humanity!!

[MNG]

If I could snap my fingers and have all the people in Africa and the Middle East be suddenly ruled under our legal system and institutions, then I would snap happily.

[DHS Thinks I\'m a Terrorist]

The Widdow White,

How long ago were you there?

[Kwix]

Jeff P | May 14, 2009, 4:28pm | #
Riiight, nothing ever goes wrong for out-of-towners in Mississippi...
Connected or not, that's a pretty retarded move. Like wandering through Hell's Kitchen in the 70's to see if you get raped.

Jeff, without details of exactly where they were pulled over and considering that I-59 from Slidell, LA to Birmingham, AL runs right through Jones County, I suspect that their "wandering through Hell's Kitchen" was being done @70mph and a 4 lane freeway.

I find it interesting that they are not being charged with any moving violation that would warrant the stop in the first place.

[MNG]

The first Congress introduced the Crimes Act (ultimately passed in 1790) before it enacted the provision to send the Bill of Rights to the states.

"In addition to treason and counterfeiting of federal records, the crimes included murder, disfigurement, and robbery committed in federal jurisdictions or on the high seas."

So come up with something better.

[The Angry Optimist]

If I could snap my fingers and have all the people in Africa and the Middle East be suddenly ruled under our legal system and institutions, then I would snap happily.

As, in the United States specifically or something that looks like the United States' system?

[MNG]

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2702174
http://www.gwu.edu/~ffcp/exhibit/p6/p6_7.html

[MNG]

Something with all the protections and measures of the US system. They'd be immeasurably better off.

In the US I simply maintain that the national consensus is usually better in terms of welfare, rights, liberty, whatever than the aggregated states if left a free hand would garner.

[The Angry Optimist]

you're telling me that the Founding Fathers sat down and said "Hey, let's come up with all of these extra-special protected rights and incorporate them in the Constitution, but then simultaneously only make them apply to our tiny Federal Government...the states can do whatever the hell they want."

That doesn't logically follow.

[Pro Libertate]

MNG,

I don't think the answer to "Federalism?" is "slavery" or "racism." There are a lot of instances where the states are better on civil liberties than the federal government is, and having the states as a check on federal power strikes me as a good idea.

Alabama has its good points. Visit Huntsville sometime.

[The Widow White]

"How long ago were you there?"

Within the last ten years.

[The Angry Optimist]

In the US I simply maintain that the national consensus is usually better in terms of welfare, rights, liberty, whatever than the aggregated states if left a free hand would garner.

Riiight...like the Controlled Substances Act, the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban...

Farmer Wickard....Susan Kelo. These people were much better off gambling with the federal government.

[MNG]

I haven't looked it up yet, but surely the first Postal Act had crimes in it too (robbing the mails and such).

They were pretty vocal about the "tiny Federal government" only restricting the states in certain explicit ways TAO...

[MNG]

Again, if you compare Wickard's 117 dollar fine or Kelo's property being taken and her given the FMV to being whipped and hung, you get a sense of what I'm talking about.

Not that the federal consensus is good, but that it is better than the state aggregate. Because some states are so freaking extreme.

We call these states "the South" btw.

[The Angry Optimist]

ooh, good thing Dred Scott's status was decided on a national level. That didn't have any bad repercussions or anything. No sir.

[The Widow White]

"Alabama has its good points. Visit Huntsville sometime."

Better than say Birmingham, which according to the white guy from Birmingham, Alabama I met in Auburn who told me that Burmingham had been a great city until the niggers took over and turned it into a shit hole?

I got a million of 'em.

[Warty]

I couldn't care less about states' rights; I only care about peoples' rights. In my lifetime, state governments have done less fucking to peoples' rights than the federal government. Therefore I trust them more...er, don't trust them less...or something.

Alabama was forced to change, and that was a good thing, but it seems unlikely that DC is about to change anytime soon.

[James Ard]

My only two speeding tickets were in Alabama, guilty of Georgia license plates. However, I set my land speed record in an old Q45, current fav of the brothers, in Mississippi with a LA license plate.

[The Angry Optimist]

Again, if you compare Wickard's 117 dollar fine or Kelo's property being taken and her given the FMV to being whipped and hung, you get a sense of what I'm talking about.

you're not dumb, so quit acting it. you know I'm talking about the abstract principles in play, not the specific concretes. Making the Commerce Clause that elastic and eviscerating what "public use" means were both tragedies for liberty.

[The Widow White]

For the record, Tennessee was okay, as was Arkansas, florida and Louisiana. The folks in Kentucky are among the best I've ever met.

But Alabama and SE Georgia? No fuckin' way.

[James Ard]

Or maybe it's just the Mississippi Jones blood I'm sporting.

[The Widow White]

"Alabama was forced to change" Did it really? Because I could tell the race of a town just by the condition of the buildings as I approached the city limits.

[James Ard]

Kwix, the moving violation they use on I-12 in LA to profile is either following too closely or improper lane useage.

[Pro Libertate]

I can only defend portions of northern Alabama. The rest of it is on its own.

[John C. Randolph]

There are a lot of instances where the states are better on civil liberties than the federal government is,

Like when the Vermont militia met the federal troops at the border and told them that Vermont wasn't about to enforce the fugitive slave act.

-jcr

[The Widow White]

"I can only defend portions of northern Alabama. The rest of it is on its own."

I have no doubt it's lovely.

[Warty]

I'm not trying to defend Alabama here, but at least lynching isn't cool anymore.

[Jack McHugh]

"You in heap 'a trouble now, boy. What say, Leroy? 'Drivin' While Libertarian?' That's what Ah figger too."

[SIV]

Laurel Mississippi is a shithole.I have driven and walked all over Jones County while working and never had a problem with the law though.
Look at the famous people who got out of there.

Laurel is the birthplace and/or primary residence of many celebrities.

* Lance Bass, pop singer and member of 'N Sync, born in Laurel
* Ralph Boston, Olympic Gold Medalist [5]
* Jason Campbell, Washington Redskins quarterback [6]
* Blanche DuBois, principal (fictional) character in Tennessee Williams' play A Streetcar Named Desire
* Mary Elizabeth Ellis, actress and daughter of local dentist
* Ed Hinton, sportswriter [7]
* Tom Lester, actor (played "Eb" on the sitcom Green Acres) [8][9]
* Mundell Lowe, an American Jazz guitarist and music composer of film and television was born in Laurel in 1922. [10]
* Doug Marlette, Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist, lived in Laurel as a child[1]
* Mary Mills, U.S. Women's Open Golf Championship winner, born in Laurel
* Clinton Portis, Washington Redskins running back [11]
* Parker Posey, actress and daughter of local Chevrolet retailer Chris Posey [12]
* Leontyne Price, opera soprano and star of the Metropolitan Opera. [13]
* James Street, journalist, minister, and writer [14]
* Ray Walston, actor (some sources claim he was born in New Orleans, where he spent his childhood) [15]
* Lloyd Wells, a country and jazz guitarist, grew up in Laurel and is an inductee of the Mississippi Music Hall of Fame. [16]
* Frank Gardiner Wisner (June 23, 1909 - October 29, 1965) head of Office of Strategic Services operations in southeastern Europe at the end of World War II, and head of the Directorate of Plans of the Central Intelligence Agency during the 1950s

I can attest that,unlike most of Mississippi, the food sucks,the people are not notably friendly,and there aren't many good looking women.Lucedale MS (George County)is just as bad.I recommend avoiding most of the "pine belt" portion of the state.

[Pro Libertate]

The Widow White,

Huntsville is nice because of the heavy space program presence and the other technology and industry that's been established there as a result. I think northern Alabama is a little better, too, because it's more like Tennessee.

Southern Alabama appears to be not so nice, though I say that only as someone who drives through it on occasion.

[Spartacus]

Northern Alabama is a very different place from the rest of the state (approx Birmingham southward). The northern part of the state is more closely related to Appalachia than to the stereotypical plantation south. The Free State of Winston, for instance.

[James Ard]

Just a tip, Meridian and Laural probably lead the nation in drug searches. Thank God I no longer have to transport stuff through those towns.

[James Ard]

Laurel drops the speed limit down to 40 mph downtown, and most times I've been through, a cop is parked around the curve.

[hmm]

I suspect the authorities in Jones County are about to realize that they harassed the wrong motorists.

You can't beat a lying policeman and complacent judge with out at least one appeal. Lets hope they get a decent judge.

[SIV]

I'm betting a "license check" roadblock.I've hit them in that area before.
I don't like it but it is far better to act like you drive through police roadblocks all the time and it is a perfectly normal thing.A small NRA decal on the rear driver's side passenger window and a well-thumbed Bible with bookmarks on the dash only help.I just have the decal but if I was hauling serious contraband I'd want the Bible too.

[James Ard]

SIV, a BAMA front license plate also helps.

[SKR]

from FreeKeene
Dan Patrick posted

Just spoke with "Stacy" at the jail.

Bail has been set as follows:

$1000 each- Pete possession of beer in dry county, Adam disorderly conduct, disobeying

$1500 - Jason Possession firearm, disorderly conduct, resisting arrest

Additionally they will have to pay a towing fee to get MARV out of lockup. She did not have information on where MARV was towed, but said that you'd have to call general dispatch to get that info.

Ian posted

Update on this afternoon's breaking news:
I just spoke with an unusually helpful jail bureaucrat at Jones County Jail. The bureaucrat explained that the ATF has passed on investigating the incident and also called Jason, Pete, and Adam their "little celebrities", due to the volume of phone calls the jail has received this afternoon. I was told that all the charges are misdemeanors and that bonds have been set in the amounts of $1,000 each for Pete and Adam and $1,500 for Jason. Apparently jail is not an option for sentencing of these misdemeanors, unless of course the MHD boys refuse to pay the fines. Additionally, Pete has been charged with "Possession of a firearm across state lines", which is a MS state charge, not federal.

[MNG]

"Making the Commerce Clause that elastic and eviscerating what "public use" means were both tragedies for liberty."

Yeah, and getting hung and whipped: not a tragedy for liberty.

And what's not "abstract" about this? This kind of treatment of folks who were black or accused of crimes (or of being "uppity") was systematic in many states for many years. So there's your "abstract." How a system of torture, forced self-incrimination, warrantless searches, denial of counsel and other basic rights, discrimination in contracts, banking, medical services, etc., was "better in the abstract" for liberty or anything else than the results of Wickard or Kelo is Disney-level goofy.

"There are a lot of instances where the states are better on civil liberties than the federal government is,

Like when the Vermont militia met the federal troops at the border and told them that Vermont wasn't about to enforce the fugitive slave act."

I was hoping someone would bring up slavery. Because certainly the national consensus was better than letting each state right on this. One reason the South was so desperate to see slavery spread was that they knew that they were outnumbered in the union as far as states

[libertymike]

MNG and TAO-

Like the crooked sheriff who was acquitted in the original Walking Tall.

[Mister DNA]

Additionally, Pete has been charged with "Possession of a firearm across state lines", which is a MS state charge, not federal.

That law must have been part of the Shit For Which We Can Arrest Non-Locals Act of 1918.

I'm curious to know if the firearm in question was even loaded (that makes a HUGE difference in Texas).

[MNG]

"you know I'm talking about the abstract principles in play, not the specific concretes."

You know TAO, this is really one of the dumber things I've ever heard you say.

Let's take one right that was systematically violated and condoned under your heyday state's rights approach, the right not to be coerced into a confession. A horrible thing I hope you would agree because it involves the blatant use of force or threat of force by a government official, a violation of the proper advesary process, and a high chance of convicting innocent people of crimes. According to the famed Wickersham Commission (commissioned by radical leftist Herbert Hoover) this right was violated in a systematic fashion (quote "[t]he third degree---the inflicting of pain, physical or mental, to extract confessions or statements---is widespread throughout the country")
before the national courts stepped in and laid down national standards.

This BY ITSELF is "worse in the abstract" than the ruling in Kelo, which I agree is a bad thing, but results in the unspeakable horror (gasp) of the taking of public property WITH a rewarding of Fair Market Value for the property.

And of course this does not touch on other areas of horror that existed before the incorporation of national standards to the states: Jim Crow, chain gangs, horrible prison conditions, systematic warrantless and unreasonable searches, denial of counsel for the accused, use of deadly force on suspects, and so on and so on. The results of this system are far worse on any "abstract" scale; people terrorized by physical violence, pushed around and having their papers, effects and property rifled through without the barest of standards, thrown into jail where they were physically beaten and worked, demeaning segregation, unequal representation in government and unequal treatment by government officials...All of this compared to people being fined 117 dollars and having their property taken while compensated...The former you think is overblown and no big deal...And what gets your blood boiling? The latter...You've got no sense of history young man. Things could be far worse than what outrages you today, and they were far worse, back in the time when your ideologies (states rights, freedom of contract, freedom of association, yada, yada)were strong indeed.

[Safely North of Mason-Dixon]

Very polite officer answering the cell phone, not very helpful, but polite:

The Jones County Sheriff Alex Hodge Office Phone: [phone]. Cell Phone [phone].

Jones County Board of Supervisors President Andy Dial 601-315-0428

[MNG]

You stand on the shoulders of the work of liberal giants, squinting into the past angry that when they lifted you out of the muck and onto their shoulders that you are afraid of heights.

Liberals fought the good fight in every case I mentioned above. After winning generations like yours come around wondering what all the fuss is about these battles because you see these problems as solved. Of course they were solved by tremondous effort by liberals standing up to very powerful forces, and constant attention by said liberals to any sign of resurgence. Fat, protected and happy due to such efforts your reply is to roll your eyes at liberals for putting a focus on that effort and bitch about the horrible injustice that is eminent domain or the minimum wage.

Brother, you don't know what horror is. We liberals have made sure of that, despite the best efforts of people like yourself...

[MNG]

Here's what the leading liberal group (made synonymous with and emblematic of "liberalism" by conservatives) has done for your ingrateful ass, and guess how many of them involved the group asking for a federal standard to prevail over local/state ones?

http://aclu.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000300

[John-David]

That's right, liberals are the source of all good in the nation. Especially when teachers' unions are threatened, so we can get those uppity black kids who think they deserve a good education back in the public schools where they belong.

[MNG]

Yeah John-David, the rule of the evil teachers unions is certainly a far worse crime than the Jim Crow school system that liberals ended. I mean, those segregated schools were horrible, but at least you could have merit pay if you wanted!

[John-David]

Of course they were solved by tremondous effort by liberals standing up to very powerful forces, and constant attention by said liberals to any sign of resurgence. Fat, protected and happy due to such efforts your reply is to roll your eyes at liberals for putting a focus on that effort and bitch about the horrible injustice that is eminent domain or the minimum wage.

Gee, sorry to have misinterpreted that statement to show that you've missed the irony of Obama's crew denying superior education to poor black kids in DC.

[John-David]

BTW, Jim Crow is over. If all you can do is fight the last battle, you're going to lose to people far more concerned with the 2000s instead of the 1960s.

[MNG]

"Jim Crow is over" Thank your local liberal. You get to live in a world where 15% of the population does not have to live in different neighborhoods, go to school in substandard schools, get systematic differential treatment from government officials, etc. Oh, and where they are not terrorized physically as a matter of routine.

In addition, thanks to liberals working their ass off, you no longer have to live under laws like contraception bans (Griswold), censorhip of political speech (Gitlow, Brandenburg, etc.), entertainment speech (Smith v. CA, Hustler v. Falwell etc.), news speech (NYT v. Sullivan, etc), coerced religious or patriotic activity (Everson, etc,), coerced confessions (Ashcroft, Escobedo), denying counsel for accused (Wainwright), allowing unreasonable warrantless searches (Mapp, Rochin, etc), etc., etc.,

[DHS Thinks I\'m a Terrorist]

MNG, did you know that a higher percentage of Republicans in Congress voted for the Civil Rights act than did Democrats?

[Mike]

Mr. Mueller, Talley, and Eyre:

Good Luck guys: fight the power!

[Seward]

MNG,

I didn't really follow the back and forth much, and some people may have already used these examples...

I would just note that it is federal (as in the federal government) power which is at the heart of the current drug war. It is federal power which launched the war against Iraq. And since we are dipping into history, is in fact federal power which lead to the invasion of the Philippines and the genocide committed there.

[aeronathan]

Having lived in MS 24 of my 26 years, maybe I can provide some a little clarity.

MS traffic laws are written in such a way that you can be pulled over for just about anything.

Traffic enforcement in MS is notoriously hard nosed. Trust me, I once got a ticket, fought in court and had to pay a fine for 1mph over the limit.

In most of the dry counties there, it is illegal to have any alcohol in them at all. In practice nobody typically cares if you aren't causing any other trouble but sometimes cops use it just be jerks.

I'm a pretty big firearms enthusiast and have never heard of that law in my life. MS doesn't even require a CCW permit for having a weapon in a vehicle so I don't know what that law is about. Here's the firearms portion of the MS Code of 1972 and I see nothing...

http://www.mscode.com/free/statutes/97/037/index.htm

[Seward]

MNG,

And of course it was federal soldiers in the 19th century which enforced much of the genocidal policies which were undertaken against Native Americans.

The point of federalism is not to favor one arena of government over the other; the point of federalism is competition between arenas so as to keep the evils which necessarily come with government tamped down. Because of the benefit of government is supposed to be primarily protection of life and property from other private actors, but that IMHO seems to be far less of a danger as compared to the dangers of government (that the actors which make it will be the thieves and murderers) when its powers are not devolved and broken up.

That's just my two cents.

[Seward]

MNG,

On further thought there are also the ludicrous age of consumption laws we have, which are in significant measure the result of federal government pressure. And we also have the REAL ID program, which the states have rightly and successfully opposed so far.

[John C. Randolph]

the Jim Crow school system that liberals ended.

Yes, liberals did a fine thing back in the days when they opposed racial discrimination. I'm sure that any liberal would be appalled to see that racial discrimination today just has a new name, and is being promulgated by people who have the sheer gall to call themselves liberals.

-jcr

[John C. Randolph]

if you videotape the encounter (and refuse to stop when he inevitably asks you to do so), you're going to spend a night in the pokey.

Concealable cameras, transmitters and recorders are surprisingly cheap these days. Check out supercircuits.com.

-jcr

[MNG]

"MNG, did you know that a higher percentage of Republicans in Congress voted for the Civil Rights act than did Democrats?"

Yes DHS< good thing I'm talking about liberals and conservatives and not Democrats and Republicans, or you'd have a point. Oh, what's that, you didn't realize that most of the Democrats that voted against that were conservatives? That most of the Republicans that voted for it were liberals? Yes, you see, the parties weren't very ideologically pure back then. I mean, when T.R. (Republican) ran against Alton Parker (Democrat), who was the "conservative?"

If you take the districts and states of folks who voted for the bill, they are mostly "blue" areas and vice versa for those who voted against it.

Seward
"It is federal power which launched the war against Iraq. And since we are dipping into history, is in fact federal power which lead to the invasion of the Philippines and the genocide committed there."

Sorry, fail! Can't compare wars, since states can't do that. Got to compare states and federal government on the same policies.

"And of course it was federal soldiers in the 19th century which enforced much of the genocidal policies which were undertaken against Native Americans."

Wrong here. The local governments actually were quite worse, often the federal government had to intercede to prevent wholesale massacres the locals were getting involved in. The locals were the ones who wanted the land locally to theirs, often the fed resisted these grabs, but often they tried to move the natives to prevent the locals from killing them, and often they were too late...

[MNG]

"Tensions between Georgia and the Cherokee Nation were brought to a crisis by the discovery of gold near Dahlonega, Georgia, in 1829, resulting in the Georgia Gold Rush, the first gold rush in U.S. history. Hopeful gold speculators began trespassing on Cherokee lands, and pressure began to mount on the Georgia government to fulfill the promises of the Compact of 1802.

When Georgia moved to extend state laws over Cherokee tribal lands in 1830, the matter went to the U.S. Supreme Court. In Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (1831), the Marshall court ruled that the Cherokees were not a sovereign and independent nation, and therefore refused to hear the case. However, in Worcester v. State of Georgia (1832), the Court ruled that Georgia could not impose laws in Cherokee territory, since only the national government - not state governments - had authority in Indian affairs."

This was a common pattern. It was Georgia, the locals, that initiated the land grab. Federal institutions tried to stay their hand. Eventually when the locals just would not stop the feds would intervene and force the natives to move elsewhere, to be resettled on federal lands (the locals didn't give a shit where they went). This of course was the Trail of Tears (Cherokee).

Sorry Seward, but the feds come out smelling like roses compared to the state governments in native american policy. In fact, probably their worst sin is that they did not stand up the local factions enough, but you know, they had all these states rights ideas beack then, which as I've said tended to have disasterous results...

And guess what Seward? You even lose on the War on Drugs. In 2005 for example the states held 253,000 people in prison for drug offenses compared to 95,446 for the same offences in federal prisons. Those darn state governments!

[Kreel Sarloo]

"I mean, when T.R. (Republican) ran against Alton Parker (Democrat), who was the "conservative?""

You don't even need to go that far back. In the early seventies Loyd Bentsen a conservative democrat ran against George Bush a Liberal Republican who was in favor of gun control, affirmative action and just about every other bastion of the liberal agenda.

And it is certainly arguable that it was John Anderson who was the most liberal candidate in the 1980 election and he was running as the alternative Republican candidate.

[MNG]

Kreel
Tru dat.

[bigbigslacker]

You know what's really fucking annoying about some of these threads?

[SpongePaul]

Ok Guys this came from the State of MS Libertarian party chair.

The motorhome diary guys were arrested this morning in Jones County. Myself and Woody were suppose to meet these guys in Meridian this morning for breakfast but they didn't show up. We waited until noon or so, then went about our merry way, just assuming they got delayed in their tour of Lousisana. I headed south on I-59 going about the business of my day, when I recieved a text msg from Woody,..."They were arrested in Jones County!!!!"

Well, it just so happened I was coming into Laurel when I recieved that text, so I just continued down to Ellisville and went to the Jones County Detention Center. I talked with a deputy there for about an hour, and she really didn't seem like she was interested in helping me. It took her about an hour to find out if they actually had these guys in their jail. But finally, she walked back to the cell and spoke with Jason. Jason told her to tell me he was sorry for being late for the breakfast (ain't that just like him?). Anywho,....I asked if I could speak to him, and she said,...."visiting hours is on Saturday". I picked her brain as much as I could over the details of the arrest, but she wouldn't share too much with me. She said they were arrested for various charges including disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, disturbing the peace, transporting alcohol in a dry county, and a weapons charge. As it turns out, the reason they were arrested, is because they refused to quit videoing the cops. I asked if they were being "charged" with those crimes,.....to which she replied "not yet". I asked her if there would be a hearing....to which she replied,..."I don't know". So, I said,....your holding these guys, without charges, and you don't even know if they're going to get a hearing?"......and she says,..."thats right".....and went back to eating her philly steak sandwich. I could tell, as far as she was concerned, these guys could be held for 20 years, and no charges ever filed against them.

I called the Governors office this evening and demanded that the Governor release these guys asap. I told the Governor to wake up whoever he has to wake up, and sign whatever paper he has to sign,....but make it happen. I told the Governor that this was nothing more than the cops in Jones County violating the civil rights of some peole in his state. I also requested that he direct the Attorney General to reprimand the District Attorney in Jones County for these violations.

I also congadulated the Governor on getting Mississippi and Jones County into the book of the Motorhome Diaries.....I hope they spell his name right

I will be at the Jones County Sheriffs Office @7:30 in the morning.

I'm not going to let this die down, until an official apology is issued to these guys (from the State of Mississippi), and written reprimands are placed in the records of those government officals involved with violating the civil rights of these men.

More details to come....

[Adam]

Talley's updates from Twitter:

@JDTalley SURPRISE: confiscated camera placed in motorhome by police. NOT A SURPRISE: video of police by @adammueller DELETED. #MHD

[Jil Wright]

just FYI, before bashing the whole state of MS, please realize that a Jones County, MS resident (that would be me) helped get the guys released. The people here are generally nice and cops can be asses anywhere. Pictures from the adventure yesterday are on my facebook page.

[Art-P.O.G.]

Yeah, the South does get a bad rap (I find places like Huntsville and Atlanta very, very nice), but the truism rears it's ugly head...I'm not trying to tar all cops with this, but if you want to find some fucked up law enforcement with a lot of complexes, apparently the best places to go are NY, LA...or backwoods Mississippi.

[Keith]

I'll stand by my friends Pete and Jason any day!

There is a Digg video about this story, spread the word, http://digg.com/politics/Ron_Paul_interviewers_arrested_in_Mississippi