Because Every Hand's a Loser
I think Barack Obama is on to something when he says, as he did last night:
You know, I don't want to run auto companies. I don't want to run banks. I've got two wars I've got to run already. I've got more than enough to do. So the sooner we can get out of that business, the better off we're going to be.
We are in unique circumstances. […]
I'm always amused when I hear these, you know, criticisms of, oh, you know, Obama wants to grow government. No. I would love a nice, lean portfolio to deal with, but that's not the hand that's been dealt us.
When it comes to meddling in the affairs of private companies (at least, private companies outside of the health care and energy spheres), I basically take Obama at his word, and agree with his implicit criticism of those who picture the commander in chief rubbing his hands at the opportunity to seize a widget manufacturer or whatever. It does not make the (substantial) case against Obama's economic policies remotely more persuasive to portray him as some kind of gleeful nationalizing commie. He's not.
No, the operative pathology–which on some levels is much more insidious, because after all, it's in you and me–is the direct correlation between "unique circumstances" and massive government intervention. Put another way, every modern U.S. president becomes a reluctant central planner, some sooner than others. The best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep that the lip-service paid to reluctance reflects, at the very least, an acknowledgement that something about a huge federal response just ain't natural.
But there is an another way in which Obama's statement is B.S.–he does want to grow government, in health care, industrial alt-energy planning, education, infrastructure, and regulation, to name a few of many areas. He may mouth a simultaneous concern about growing government deficits, but it just isn't believable.
Full transcript from last night's press conference here.
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Obama may not want to directly run these companies but he is happy to have the opportunity to put cronies of the oligarchy in charge of them.
I basically take Obama at his word
If that word is anything other than "oh," you're stupid.
Of course he wants to grow government. Every CEO wants to increase the size of his/her domain.
But he wants to grow it his way. He wants the sexy enterprises, not moribund rust-belt companies that will just rub some of their failure off on him.
I would love a nice, lean portfolio to deal with, but that's not the hand that's been dealt us.
The "hand" we've been dealt is his own statist megalomania and unwillingness to be seen as inactive.
Both of those things are completely in his control. All he has to do to change the hand he's been dealt is stop being a douchebag.
The best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep
You were right the first time, Matt.
The best that you can hope for is to die in your sleep
that's not the hand that's been dealt us
Hooray! Kenny Rogers day! (Finally, right?!)
Oh, please. The man couldn't wait to take advantage of this crisis to get his hands into everything. That's not paranoia, that's a fact. If he didn't want to do this, then why the rush for a "stimulus" bill? Why didn't he just let some companies fail? Why, why, why?
The hubris of this president and of today's Congress is truly frightening, and I refuse to give him a pass when most of his rhetoric and virtually all of his actions point to a love of central planning and control.
Hooray! Kenny Rogers day! (Finally, right?!)
So much so that I changed the headline!
Kenny Rogers day!
I've always felt that the song "Coward of the County" was flawed because the subject of the song takes revenge on the men who gang-raped his girlfriend by beating them up. Doesn't an ass-whupping seem like a woefully inadequate retribution for a gang-raping?
It does not make the (substantial) case against Obama's economic policies remotely more persuasive to portray him as some kind of gleeful nationalizing commie. He's not.
No sooner than you come out of the Commie Newspaper Guy walk-in closet you start covering up for your fellow travelers? LOL
Bybee looks like Eichmann to me.
The man got a law degree. Did the part about "cruel and unusual punishments" miss his attention?
-jcr
Yo, SugarFree, message for you here 🙂
Oops, wrong thread.
-jcr
Roasters for everyone!
Why didn't he just let some companies fail?
Yeah we'd be so much better off with more Lehman Bros.
Thankfully he's not a slave to an ideology that would have required that.
No, he's a slave to another ideology.
Hey Tony, how tall are you?
Eeek! Can we call Obama a "slave"? Perhaps we should be more niggardly in our descriptors.
"If he didn't want to do this, then why the rush for a "stimulus" bill? Why didn't he just let some companies fail? Why, why, why?"
Because he doesn't believe in the free market or cowboy capitalism as Howard Dean calls it. I was channel surfing last night and caught Howard Dean on Bill Maher saying that our current crisis is a failure of cowboy capitalism. My blood is still boiling. What an idiot!
Doesn't an ass-whupping seem like a woefully inadequate retribution for a gang-raping?
I dunno. Once everyone knows that you and all your buddies were simultaneously owned by someone known as The Coward of the County, I imagine your badassin' days are done.
The sad part is, the general public right now seems to think government central planning is good. I hear a lot of the "Yeah, so what if he becomes central planner? Like our 'letting the market sort it out' method of solving problems actually worked!" There's this convoluted wave of thought I'm seeing where many in the public think the last eight years was some sort of laissez-faire capitalist utopia. Are we that gullible?
"Why didn't he just let some companies fail?
Yeah we'd be so much better off with more Lehman Bros.
Thankfully he's not a slave to an ideology that would have required that."
If he were, the economy could correct itself faster. Obama's "stimulus package" might stimulate in the short term, but in the long run it will create a stagnant economy by raising interest rates and or taxes and or creating runaway inflation.
Yeah we'd be so much better off with more Lehman Bros.
Yeah, we would, actually.
The ongoing [and continuing] refusal to settle the affairs of insolvent firms - due to the losses this would inflict on vested interests - has helped to draw out the timeline of this downturn.
The drumbeat for bailouts of financial companies was amplified by a desire by powerful firms to avoid paying out on credit default swaps. I'm sure it looks like a civilization-threatening crisis if you're holding a bunch of bets that will come due if insolvent companies are allowed to go bankrupt.
In other words, all situations are "unique."
Tony,
We would be much better off with that actually, over the short, medium and long term. As it stands now the markets will take far longer to sort themselves out and we will have a lot more rent seeking associated with that than would otherwise have been the case.
I'm five foot nine, Xeones. Why, pray tell, do you ask?
Thanks for pointing out that it doesn't make our case (libertarians and/or tea bag patriots) by portraying Pres. Obama as a "gleeful nationalizing commie." We can do better by making a rational case. But we cannot ever forget the collective amnesia that pols allow to settle over their previous deeds.
Whenever Obama says he doesn't want to run the auto companies, agree with him while pointing out other instances where the feds apparently do want to interfere. What we seem to have now is what the Fabians called the "salami effect": slice off another slim piece of freedom, deny that you are doing it, and hope the people don't catch on until it is too late.
"The sad part is, the general public right now seems to think government central planning is good. I hear a lot of the "Yeah, so what if he becomes central planner? Like our 'letting the market sort it out' method of solving problems actually worked!"
Actually, the latest Rasmussen and Fox polls show that a majority of the public do believe that the market should be allowed to correct the economy and are opposed to big government meddling to straighten out the economy. Yet a majority of the public are satisfied with Obama. How's that for a skitzoid public?
I erred--allow me to rephrase: No, he's an indentured servant to another ideology.
The hubris of this president and of today's Congress is truly frightening
These guys are starting to remind me of the fat guy in the bar who yells, "I coulda caught that one!" at the teevee. Except they really do seem to believe they can make the Superbowl-winning play.
And get the hot cheerleader.
The ideology that doesn't have to make up facts and rewrite history in order for it to make any sense?
I think it's time for the Presidential Suit to just get it over with, and appoint Jesse Jackson as Secretary of Commerce.
Liberty is good for liberties sake. Not sure what facts and/or history have to be made up to understand that.
What does massive unemployment have to do with liberty?
Tony,
Is it re-writing history to be critical of FDR's efforts to cartelize industries from 1933-1935? Efforts which I must add proved to be quite unpopular with general public; so much so that they were out the door even prior to the Supreme Court striking them down?
I mean, even if you agree that the government should have a strong hand in the economy; it is simply the case that FDR did a lot of boneheaded stuff, and one cannot simply wave one's hands and make that go away.
"The ideology that doesn't have to make up facts and rewrite history in order for it to make any sense?"
Like the Keynesians who claim that FDR got us out of the Depression?
bookworm,
Example Question 1: "Are you against government meddling?"
Example Question 2: "Do you think the government should try and fix the broken economy?"
It's a polling problem IMO.
What does massive unemployment have to do with liberty?
Not much. Its generally the result of lack of liberty.
Heck, as a perfect example, Mexican unemployment would be lower with freedom to cross borders for work.
Maybe Obama meant that he wanted to grow government spending but deliver that spending in a lean way? Imagine a situation with large transfer payments but relatively few government employees to manage them. What could go wrong?
Tony,
During the 1930s it was argued that because the USSR had "full employment" that the USSR had a better system that should be emulated. Employment however is not remotely as important as productivity, and no system is more productive (because it is so creative) than a free market system.
Anyway, the state clearly does all sorts of things to inhibit employment.
"You know, I don't want to run auto companies"
Sure he does - he wants to run them for the benefit of the UAW because Obama is a labor union butt-boy.
An editorial in today's Wall Street Journal points out that the GM deal gives the government and the UAW somewhere between 76 and 87 cents on the dollar of what they're owed as unsecured creditors and the bondholders get about 7 cents on the dollar relative to what they're owed. They are being screwed over for political reasons.
I may regret it, but I'm willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt for now. Deep down I think he's an incrementalist, and he doesn't like moving quickly on issue, but he feels that circumstances are forcing the issue.
Note, I gave Bush the same benefit of the doubt until about mid 2003.
FrBunny,
Here's Dick Morris's report of the polls:
"But beneath this superficial support, Obama's specific policies run afoul of the very deeply felt convictions of American voters. For example, the most recent Rasmussen Poll asked voters whether they wanted an economic system of complete free enterprise or preferred more government involvement in managing the economy. By 77-19, they voted against a government role, up seven points from last month."
"And in the Fox News poll - the very same survey that gave Obama a 62 percent approval rating and reported that 68 percent of voters are "satisfied" with his first hundred days - voters, by 50-38, supported a smaller government that offered fewer services over a larger government that provided more."
"By 42-8, the Fox News poll (conducted on April 22-23) found that voters felt Obama had expanded government rather than contracted it (42 percent said it was the same size) and, by 46-30, reported believing that big government was more of a danger to the nation than big business. (By 50-23, they said Obama felt big business was more dangerous.)"
"By 62-20, they said government spending, under Obama, was "out of control."
Yes, that's what I'm talking about. You guys can't admit reality about FDR and the depression because it would undermine your pet theories. FDR did make mistakes--most notably when he caved to pressure from the right to slow down spending out of fear of growing the deficit. This slowed recovery.
You guys do this all the time. When you're not rewriting 20th century history to suit your purposes you're denying that the subject at hand is what it is. This is not a once-in-a-century economic collapse, it's just a market correction. No market solution to global warming? Deny global warming!
Tony,
Not going to fucking answer me?
I didnt bring up FDR or unemployment. Fuck them.
Liberty for liberties fucking sake. That is all that matters. Good, bad, or indifferent, maximize liberty.
Dispute that fucker.
Why, pray tell, do you ask?
I was curious as to how high one could possibly pile retarded bullshit, and now i know.
Tony,
Share some of whatever you are on with SugarFree, k?
robc,
You didn't ask a question. You're just ranting about liberty without bothering to define it. Is the liberty to get laid off and have no social safety net one we really ought to value?
Here's a clue to economics--the national economy is much bigger than the government. Much, much bigger. And it is far too complex and fluid to be controlled by government or any other group or individual. Attempts to do so result in suboptimal results, especially over time.
What's interesting to me is that people on the left have no problem accepting that small actions can have massive, unexpected, and even counter-intuitive effects on climate, but seem perplexed by the idea that the economy is a similarly complex and chaotic system. With perfect knowledge and infinite goodwill, control of the economy might make sense. Until Multivac or Jesus is running things, I think a massively distributed decision-making structure is superior--economically, morally, and politically. The immorality of forcing people to behave a certain way bothers you when it's, say, gay marriage; why doesn't it bother you when it comes to property or individual freedom of action?
Tony,
One major flaw in your reasoning is that most serious economists reject Keynesian theories and don't think the government did much more than muddle about at the fringes of the Depression. Where libertarians may go too far is in blaming the government for enhancing the effects of the Depression, but I think we're probably closer to the truth than people like you are.
I see no difference between the faith you have in Democratic rule to solve all problems and the faith a fundamentalist has that God will divert traffic while he's laying in the street. As much as the right and the left like to attack libertarians for being Utopian, the reality is that we pay a whole lot more attention to reality than either of you do.
I sceamed "LIAR!" at the TV when that came out of his lips.
most serious economists reject Keynesian theories and don't think the government did much more than muddle about at the fringes of the Depression.
[citation needed]
<R. Lee Ermey>Five foot nine? I didn't know you could stack shit that high!</R. Lee Ermey>
Matt, tell me you aren't that gullable. You'll take Obama at his word despite his past support for cafe standards,Fanny and Freddy and who knows what other government involvement he's advocated in the past. Also, name one statement Obama has made where he didn't really mean the opposite.
Is the liberty to get laid off and have no social safety net one we really ought to value?
There is no liberty to get laid off. The liberty is for the employer to employ at his discretion. You should have the liberty to get employeed as you can or start your own business.
The liberty is that I dont have to provide you a safety net if I dont choose to. If you want to provide one for yourselves or others, you should have the liberty to do so.
Xeones,
You're talking to a spoofer. You're gonna need to pile on 2 more inches of bullshit to reach my height. Thanks.
I just checked in to see what condition my condition was in.
Liberal fluff-brains have a hard time processing the fact that freedom has nothing to do with any sort of guaranteed outcome.
"No market solution to global warming? Deny global warming!"
I don't deny global warming. I just deny that it would be more costly to try to prevent it. It would be cheaper to adjust to it especially since it has not been proven that it will be as disastrous as some people like Al Gore and Hansen make it out to be.
Regarding FDR's policies working: Canada had a 9.1% unemployment rate in 1930 compared to our 8.9% unemployment rate. In 1938 our unemployment rate was 19.0% compared to Canada's 11.4%. Canada didn't have a New Deal. If the New Deal was so good at getting us out of the Depression, why did Canada have a lower unemployment rate?
"The liberty is for the employer to employ at his discretion"
I'm not an employer so this liberty don't mean much to me...I'm an employee, so making me "free" from worry of a termination at will that leaves me to the market outranks that any day.
Let employers worry about their freaking freedom to employ or not.
Matt, tell me you aren't that gullable.
He voluntarily lives in DC rather than VA, doesn't he?
robc,
But here in the real world, not everyone can be an employer. You defend absolute liberty for employers but not employees and I don't understand that. I value maximizing individual liberty too. Favoring laissez-faire economic policies is a good way of minimizing individual liberty--that is, restricting it to plutocrats--in my opinion.
Yeah we'd be so much better off with more Lehman Bros.
We'd be far better off if we weren't squandering resources on failed businesses, yes.
-jcr
but that's not the hand that's been dealt us.
Fold, Dummy!
"most serious economists reject Keynesian theories and don't think the government did much more than muddle about at the fringes of the Depression.
[citation needed]"
Naah, Tony, you just need to accept the standard libertarian definition of "serious" in relation to the noun "economist" to mean "one that makes me safe in my ideology." Then you know you'll never have to worry you're wrong!
The Man from Snowy River would be so disappointed in the turn this thread has taken.
Ah, the sweet liberty to be found in pushing other people around and making them work for your benefit. By Dan T(ony)'s definition, the freest society in American history was the pre-Civil War South.
A random sampling of the opinions of economic experts is not something of interest around these parts...
Ah, MNG out of Left field, sporting his red armband with the cute little party emblem endorsing government forced labor levels on private business.
Is that the way they do it in Gaza?
"By Dan T(ony)'s definition, the freest society in American history was the pre-Civil War South."
Since (if we accept your understandings and concepts, which likely I don't) Tony was referring to restricting the employer, or the owner, to benefit the employee, or the one working, that's a pretty assbackwards analogy.
MNG really comes out swinging when he wakes up in a puddle of his own piss.
Oh High/SIV/TofuSushi, you're so cute when you're angry!
If the New Deal was so good at getting us out of the Depression, why did Canada have a lower unemployment rate?
You don't even have to look outside the USA to see that the new deal was a failure. Just look at the recovery that happened starting in 1946, when federal spending was cut by 2/3, and all of Roosevelt's insane price control policies were abandoned. The Keynesians predicted a downturn due to the winding down of war production; they were wrong on that, too.
-jcr
What does massive unemployment have to do with liberty?
Freedom's just another word for "nothin left to lose" . . . .
I value maximizing individual liberty too.
It sounds to me as if what you truly value is maximizing your personal comfort and self-satisfaction at the expense of others.
You defend absolute liberty for employers but not employees and I don't understand that.
In a free market the employee is free to negotiate the best terms that are agreeable with them and the host of employers seeking their labor.
Same way sellers of any other thing of value are free to negotiate price and quality to the satisfaction of both parties in the transaction.
Was Canada following some libertopian laissez-faire policy during that time? I doubt it. Either way, their economic tide is often linked to ours.
Well, yes. The electorate insists on activity. To be seen doing nothing in the midst of a crisis - any crisis - would end a politician's career. All this bitching and whining about government fails to get at the root of the problem, which is that we, the American people, have the government that we insist on having.
HEB,
Fool!!! The government does all that shit! Concentrate on HOPE and CHANGE!!!
High @ 11:32, what are you doing? It seemed like you tried to make a substantive point?
OK, who's spoofing High? Come clean!
"To be seen doing nothing in the midst of a crisis - any crisis - would end a politician's career."
No shit, let me tell you about that...
MNG,
My pet theory is that HEB is actually Guy Montag.
restricting the employer, or the owner, to benefit the employee
How the fuck does a rational person justify this?
Get off your worthless, lazy ass and benefit yourself, you fucking statist douchebag.
MNG,
The analogy is only backwards if you don't give a shit about the "forcing people to work for other people's benefit" part of it as long as those who are giving up their labor is a group you don't like.
People don't exist for the benefit of other people.
"In a free market the employee is free to negotiate the best terms that are agreeable with them and the host of employers seeking their labor."
Except the latter will starve a lot faster than the former...Now, ready set, commence the "equal bargaining!"
Fool!!! The government does all that shit! Concentrate on HOPE and CHANGE!!!
Naga, I now see the light! Set Minimum Wage at $1,000/hour right away!
Naga, my pet theory is that you should suck my dick.
Favoring laissez-faire economic policies is a good way of minimizing individual liberty--that is, restricting it to plutocrats--in my opinion.
So your opinion is that government interference in and restriction of individual economic choices means more individual freedom?
Oooookay.
"Get off your worthless, lazy ass and benefit yourself, you fucking statist douchebag.'
First of all P, I'm sure I make more money than you, so waah.
Second, I've done something to benefit me. And you. And everybody here.
I voted for Obama last year.
My pet theory is that HEB is actually Guy Montag.
You're not the only one...
11:36 spoof, High gets even cuter (reaches out and pinches his red cheeks)
High @ 11:32, what are you doing? It seemed like you tried to make a substantive point?
Seeing that your Nazi ass never makes a point that was not pre-written by some crazy German economist, I take your words as a badge of honor, as I have for weeks.
Naga, my pet theory is that you should suck my dick.
Not to defend Naga against forced sodomy or anything, but that's a trick -- you don't have one.
Yes, but to be fair, so are voters. That's one thing that explains those polls about "most voters want smaller government, but approve of Obama." Most voters, even those who claim libertarian affections (or "fiscally conservative, socially liberal," whatever) are rhetorically in favor of less government, except for whatever hot button issue of the day. Sadly, to the degree that Obama, or any President is a "reluctant central planner," they're IMO accurately reflecting the American voter.
No, but they never had any equivalent of Glass-Steagall. No distinction between investment and regular banking, banks allowed to compete in both, no bans on inter-province branch banking, etc. So whether it's laissez-faire or not in Canada, they never had the one regulation that people crying about too much deregulation in the US can point to being deregulated. If we had the equivalent of Canadian regulation of finance, we'd have more deregulation, not more regulation.
Set Minimum Wage at $1,000/hour right away!
The way Bernanke's inflating, that could happen in a year or so.
-jcr
"So your opinion is that government interference in and restriction of individual economic choices means more individual freedom?"
It's not only Tony's opinion, it's yours too, or don't you think government interference restricting people from forcefully taking your property (larceny and burglary laws for example) means more invididual freedom?
Or is your rebuttal Yo, fuck MNG?
I'm sure I make more money than you, so waah.
Aren't you the one who incessantly prattles on about income being an independent variable?
"Second, I've done something to benefit me. And you. And everybody here.
I voted for Obama last year."
How has Obama benefitted us?
Obama realizes this, incidentally. If you read the interview he's quite clear that he thinks that Glass-Steagall repeal had absolutely nothing to do with it, and cites Canada as an example.
Let it go, Xeones. Let it go. I'm not gonna suck yours either.
In a free market the employee is free to negotiate the best terms that are agreeable with them and the host of employers seeking their labor.
I'm glad you're defending unions. Don't find much of that around here, for some reason I cannot fathom.
"but that's a trick -- you don't have one."
Well that wasn't me obviously, but I'll answer:
Not one that can fit in your girlfriend's mouth (though not for want of her trying I might add).
Xeones,
Don't try and puzzle it out. It will melt your brain. To liberals, government is just a yoke around the neck of the productive so the lazy can ride them around. Of course they want the yoke to be bound as tightly as possible.
What "recovery" did FDR have during his Presidency before the war? I ask this to many New Deal praisers, and the answer I hear mostly is how unemployment decreased. "B-but-but jobs!"
Creating government jobs is not a victory, especially when the jobs don't truly reflect actual supply and demand of the market. And also, unemployment never "recovered" to Coolidge-prosperity levels.
Not to defend Naga against forced sodomy or anything, but that's a trick -- you don't have one.
She does that whole moral relativism thing with her clitoris on a regular basis.
I'm glad you're defending unions. Don't find much of that around here, for some reason I cannot fathom.
MNG Jr., you don't read a damn thing here between your spoutings.
"Seeing that your Nazi ass"
High is so cute when he's mad, puffy red cheeks, bulging eyes, and a Godwin! I love you too High xx00
But really, stop thinking about my ass so much...
Well, I took core economics classes in college and have followed economics since then, and I can tell you that until the last year, Keynes was considered a dead letter. Read the scholarly work yourself, and you'll have trouble finding much mainstream endorsement of Keynes in the last two decades.
Don't confuse politics with economics--the data just doesn't support massive government intervention as a solution to economic downturns. Think about why that is. First, the government is very, very slow to recognize the advent of recessions. It is sometimes so far off that the recovery has begun before the government knows about the recession!
Second, the controls used by government are not sophisticated or very precise and often have different results than planned. In addition, businesses and individuals will often route around government interference when that interference is too destructive and/or disruptive.
Third, it is a fact that much government intervention is politically motivated. How is that good?
Finally, why do you think the government can make better decisions than you and I can? Simply put, it lacks the data about our lives to make those kinds of decisions. If you advocate a collective approach, one that eschews consideration of how individuals are affected by large scale economic manipulation, well, then, economic and other types of liberty are out the window, aren't they?
On the flip side, there's also a lack of substantial data supporting Austrian economics, mostly because meddling meddlers don't give it a chance to function. It's hard to talk about the economy in the same way it is to talk about the environment--we're just too ignorant and lack the comprehensive data to talk about either intelligently, let alone about manipulating either.
Dammit! MNG you started the spoofers! Now I can't tell what's going on!
Seriously though, I thought MNG was a dyke bodybuilder. Did he get a penile implant?
"MNG Jr., you don't read a damn thing here between your spoutings."
High, he does read things here obviously, he's kidding, which is what grown up minds do every now and then. Ask your Dad (mom's current "boyfriend").
NS,
You are still behind by a few moments.
Hey, Naga Shadow is a Sith Lord. That's pretty cool (I just looked it up rather than ask)
But here in the real world, not everyone can be an employer.
I disagree...as did Lysander Spooner (he recommended everyone work for themselves).
You defend absolute liberty for employers but not employees and I don't understand that. I value maximizing individual liberty too. Favoring laissez-faire economic policies is a good way of minimizing individual liberty--that is, restricting it to plutocrats--in my opinion.
I defend liberty for EVERYONE. How does giving liberty reduce liberty? Trade with anyone as you see fit at whatever price the two of you agree to. How does that minimize individual liberty?
Whether the trade is for goods or for services (such as labor).
HEB,
I exist in a world filled with my own smugness and self-satisfaction. That world is natrually located outside this universe's time scale. Gotta give me a little break to catch up.
Damn you Joe's Law!
"Finally, why do you think the government can make better decisions than you and I can?"
Studies in behavioral economics and psychology show us that humans, especially with limited time and information, often make irrational decisions and evaluations of costs and benefits (and probabilities). Experts with more time and information can sometimes devise regulations which will yeild a better overall outcome than every person making their own evaluation at the moment.
Of course, the burden should always, always be on the regulator.
So your opinion is that government interference in and restriction of individual economic choices means more individual freedom?
I don't see the market as wholly distinct from any other natural force. Governments exist to mitigate the risks associated with living in nature, be those risks hurricanes, viruses, competing tribes, or poverty. What MNG said.
"But here in the real world, not everyone can be an employer.
I disagree"
Too much capital concentrated in too few hands for that robc
Except the latter will starve a lot faster than the former
I agree, employers will starve faster than employees. If employees withhold their labor, employers are screwed. Employees can easily find enough labor not to starve.
Trade with anyone as you see fit at whatever price the two of you agree to. How does that minimize individual liberty?
That's not true; a fair exchange of value is no different than robbery at gunpoint.
[see: "Those filthy Korean grocers are taking all the money out of the neighborhood!" and "Those filthy Chinamen/Saudis/Nips have all our money, now!" argument]
MNG,
To much capital eh? And how much would be "just right"?
MNG,
"So your opinion is that government interference in and restriction of individual economic choices means more individual freedom?"
It's not only Tony's opinion, it's yours too, or don't you think government interference restricting people from forcefully taking your property (larceny and burglary laws for example) means more invididual freedom?
Forcefully taking your property is not an individual economic choice. Words mean things.
Sorry guys, been fun slapping some of you around, but I gotta put on my sandals and meet my fellow commune members for lunch (tofu sandwhich on wheat bread with fair trade coffee) and book discussion of Chairman Mao's Little Red Book. Check back later,
P.S. Really High, stop thinking about my ass so much...
I'm glad you're defending unions. Don't find much of that around here, for some reason I cannot fathom.
Im all in favor of unions...just as soon as the laws requiring good faith negotiations go away. Any company should be free to recognize or not recognize a union as they see fit (or contractually agree to).
I don't know why but after reading MNG's goodbye post I pictured him in a beret. Anyone else get that impression?
Oh, real quick, you got me there robc, I switched my latter and former...The employer can hold out longer, he has access to his capital (which is on average greater) and at least his own labor, while the employee usually has only his labor (and you can work all day but without land and seed to grow food, or a factory and ore to make a car, etc., it will avail you naught).
later dudes and dudettes (High)
humans, especially with limited time and information, often make irrational decisions and evaluations of costs and benefits (and probabilities).
-in other words-
"humans, especially with limited time and information, often make irrational decisions and evaluations of costs and benefits (and probabilities) which I would not make, and do not approve of.
Too much capital concentrated in too few hands for that robc
My company started with literally 6k in capital.
For many, a hammer may be all the capital they need.
"Was Canada following some libertopian laissez-faire policy during that time? I doubt it."
Here's what Robert Murphy wrote in "The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Great Depression and the New Deal":
"...the average gap between US and Canadian unemployment increased under FDR. Under the Hoover years (1930 to 1933), American unemployment was, on average, 3.9 points higher than Canada's unemployment. Yet during the (peacetime) heyday of the New Deal from 1934 to 1941, US unemployment, on average, was 5.9 points higher than Canad's. Thus, if one tries to excuse the lingering unemployment of the 1930's on "external shocks" outside of Roosevelt's control, we must nonetheless conclude that the Canadian government did a better job handling such shocks. (Incidentally, the Canadians did not institute a 'Northern New Deal' during the 1930's.) In 1942, in fact, the famed economist Joseph Schumpeter blamed the New Deal as the only possible explanation 'for the fact that the US which had the best chance of recovering quickly was precisely the one to experience the most unsatisfactory recovery."
Murphy pointed out that "...other countries in the 1930's were hit by the Great Depression as well - it was a worldwide collapse, after all - and yet they recovered more quickly than the US."
robc said it first, MNG. No force and no fraud is actually pretty easy to understand; you'll get it one day.
I don't sell my labor; I sell my knowledge.
I'm seriously convinced that MNG is actually Hugo Chavez and comes here to do battle with "cowboy capitalists".
I've defaulted to the setting that no matter what Obama says, he really means the exact opposite.
His almost undetectable level of truthiness is disturbing.
Creating government jobs is not a victory, especially when the jobs don't truly reflect actual supply and demand of the market.
See I value people not starving somewhat more than the market being pure. Your devotion to supply and demand comes from the mistaken impression that naked market forces produce optimal products, services, and happiness. (Maybe not actually--I get the impression that a lot of libertarians genuflect to the magical forces of the market regardless of whether it produces a net benefit for people or even whether it produces anything useful [like the Sham-Wow!].)
Talk about incest, O'Blama's 50% ownership of GM puts the government in a position where the government will be loaning the government money.
That's sort of like having your wife buy lunch for you.
Dont mock the Sham-Wow. I hear it can even clean up hooker blood.
TWC!!! Dude! Where the hell do you keep disappearing to? No. No I won't look for you on your blog. I read your wine reviews. Thats it.
magical forces of the market
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Some of us are more advanced than others.
It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.
Self-interest FTW!
Why on earth give him the benefit of the doubt on "I don't want to grow government" when he has never, in his life, done one single thing that wasn't aimed at growing government?
You. Cannot. Take. Obama. At. His. Word.
He lies, spins, prevaricates, and misleads, almost constantly. He's certainly not unique in that, of course, but he is unusually skilled.
It. Doesn't. Matter. What. He. Says. It. Only. Matters. What. He. Does.
When what he says is so completely at odds with his record and what his is doing, there is no reason whatsoever to give him the benefit of the doubt on it.
Obama is a liar. Anyone who believes a word he says is a waste of life.
R C Dean,
I don't know. Obama's so articulate. Very personable. Quite knowledeable about a variety of topics. I'm inclined to believe what he says and shill for what he believes in. Plus, he's black and I feel righteous for agreeing with him.
"See I value people not starving somewhat more than the market being pure."
There will be a lot less starving if markets are allowed to adjust sooner. There was a lot less starving during the short depression of Harding's administration than the long Hoover/Roosevelt depression. Harding allowed the economy to adjust by cutting taxes and spending. Hoover's and Roosevelt's meddling prolonged the depression and caused more suffering.
The Presidential Suit is speaking; "I come not to praise Chrysler, but to bury them."
If only.
I'm not sure why I italicized that.
It's all complete and utter bullshit, anyway.
I fucking hate that guy.
Holy fucking shit. No wonder joe left. It was an act of self preservation. Even his blatantly partisan ass would go insane trying to spin this.
The auto workers are HEEEEEEERRoes!
HEDGES FUNDS ARE EEEEEEVILLLLLL!!!!!!
I don't know why but after reading MNG's goodbye post I pictured him in a beret. Anyone else get that impression?
My impression was a little bit upthread.
And then MNG vanishes in a puff of joe.
You selfish bastards! I was reading the WSJ today and some of those workers are gonna have to take a paycut during their paid two month leave from work. They may even have to pay a fee now for their insurance! You all oughtta be ashamed of yourselves!
"One more step on a clearly charted path to Chrysler's revival."
*outright, prolonged laughter*
And you thought the Japanese believed in Industrial Policy.
I turned on TV last night just before 8pm central time. My TV shows what program is on. Superimposed over Obama was "Lie To Me" (The show that was supposed to be on). I wish I had a way of taking a screen shot of my TV.
Does this dumb bastard actually believe what he says?
This prospect frightens me.
See I value people not starving somewhat more than the market being pure.
Tony, name one market economy where starvation exists in any measurable amount. Otherwise, please stop with the nonsense.
It's called a camera. Buy one. I got your back, bro.
Flyover Country,
I turned on TV last night just before 8pm central time. My TV shows what program is on. Superimposed over Obama was "Lie To Me" (The show that was supposed to be on). I wish I had a way of taking a screen shot of my TV.
[MNG-Tony voice]
Your masters in rednecklandia are brainwashing you into hating the new FDR.
[/MNG-Tony voice]
*moves goalposts*
Zimbabwe. Those market fundamentalists have wrecked their country.
"cruel and unusual punishments"
You know the Framers were very careful with their words and so it is important to understand that the above quote is a conjunction not a disjunction (in which case it would read ""cruel OR unusual punishments)". Yet, we treat it as a disjunction.
Given that, what the framers were saying is that punishment could be cruel (e.g., electrodes to the nut sack eight hours a day for twenty years). And it could be unusual (e.g., being forced to run naked through a Catholic girl's grade school with a Viagra induced erection eight hours a day for twenty years). It just could not be BOTH cruel AND unusual). I do not understand why everyone misses that
Naga,
Where would you rather live? Zimbabwe or Gaza?
See I value people not starving somewhat more than the market being pure. Your devotion to supply and demand comes from the mistaken impression that naked market forces produce optimal products, services, and happiness. (Maybe not actually--I get the impression that a lot of libertarians genuflect to the magical forces of the market regardless of whether it produces a net benefit for people or even whether it produces anything useful [like the Sham-Wow!].)
Why don't you value -- or even merely recognize -- liberty for liberty's sake?
None of this is "market forces" or "optimal products" or "net benefits." It's about individual liberty. Period. You seem not to understand the concept of principles, possibly because you have not yet learned how to hold any. It's all utilitarian to you and people like you.
HEB,
I'm gonna go with Gaza. Closer to the black juice.
Tom,
Liberty to some means having others make choices for you and for others, in your favor, at the barrel of a gun if needed.
I'm gonna go with Gaza. Closer to the black juice.
If you get a chance to visit Tel Aviv let me know, I am buying the first round of beer.
Pro Libertate, MNG, etc.,
Actually, the data doesn't suppport either the Treasury View or the Keynesian view, because there has been so little research on fiscal stimulus in general. I'm of the opinion that economists really have very few empirical insights on the matter at all and that basically what we are doing is flying blind.
bookworm,
The New Deal did what Schumpeter warned against; namely cartelizing industries by government fiat. This is the reason why when Ford exited WWII it was in such terrible shape and yet still was a functioning company. In any sort of normal, non-cartelized economy Ford would have gone bankrupt.
Schumpeter argued that the future collapse of capitalism would not come about as Marx predicted, but because of a cozy relationship between very large firms and the government. Lots of government regulation, especially of the complex variety, is an impetus for large firms.
Fuck utilitarianism.
Ultimately whether he wants to do it all along or is forced to do it by circumstances, the end result is the same. George Bush was not bent on conquering the world and actively campaigned against nation building. Those facts didn't buy him any slack when circumstances he felt forced him to do things he didn't really want to do. In the same way, I fail to see how Obama's professed distaste for nationalization should somehow relieve him of responsibility for nationalizing things.
Why don't you value -- or even merely recognize -- liberty for liberty's sake?
Freedom is slavery.
The worst thing the Tonys of the world can imagine is a society of people who are equally free to reap both the benefits and the consequences of their actions.
HEB,
I'll be in Antigua in December and southern Spain around next March. As close as I can get, brother.
I'll be in Antigua in December and southern Spain around next March. As close as I can get, brother.
When in Spain can you visit George Orwell Square and waive at the cameras for me?
Why don't you value -- or even merely recognize -- liberty for liberty's sake?
None of this is "market forces" or "optimal products" or "net benefits." It's about individual liberty. Period. You seem not to understand the concept of principles, possibly because you have not yet learned how to hold any. It's all utilitarian to you and people like you.
Yes I'm somewhat of a utilitarian. But you don't grasp that I value individual liberty as much as you do--I just define it differently (in a more utilitarian way). Radically unrestricted liberty is no liberty at all.
See I value people not starving somewhat more than the market being pure. Your devotion to supply and demand comes from the mistaken impression that naked market forces produce optimal products, services, and happiness.
Like the optimal returns fostered by the central planning of the Soviet Government? And by "optimal returns", I of course mean "people starving".
Schumpeter argued that the future collapse of capitalism would not come about as Marx predicted, but because of a cozy relationship between very large firms and the government.
Schumpeter is* a GOD!
*intentional use of present tense
HEB,
Where is that?
Radically unrestricted liberty is no liberty at all.
Please explain?
Radically unrestricted liberty is no liberty at all.
Freedom is Slavery!
Naga,
George Orwell Square? Barcelona. Some clues may be had in Homage to Catalonia and on the Google.
Tel Aviv is here.
I'll help domo. He's saying we must ALLbe free from hunger, sickness, and anything bad. Otherwise, WE just aren't free.
domo,
He is saying that freedom is anarchy. Has something to do with a lack of any sense at all.
Second, I've done something to benefit me. And you. And everybody here.
I voted for Obama last year.
Even though I make less than 250K annually, my cigarettes went up a buck a pack to fund the health care of children of those who make more money tham me.
When's my tax cut?
Thanks. Kiss my ass.
"It does not make the (substantial) case against Obama's economic policies remotely more persuasive to portray him as some kind of gleeful nationalizing commie. He's not."
Sure he is.
Obama is the CPPP - the Commie Pinko Punk President.
HEB!!!!!!!!!!!!
*shakes fist in direction of Tel Aviv*
I feel like I just got rickrolled! I actually clicked on that damn link even though I already know where the hell it was. I feel like a douchebag!
Anyways, that's one of the cities I'll be visiting. Madrid, Granada, Valencia, etc.
OptimalMan!
Save us, OptimalMan!
The most important liberty is the liberty to fail. And fail hard.
Naga,
At least it was SFW, as opposed to some of them that get posted here 🙂
See I value people not starving somewhat more than the market being pure. Your devotion to supply and demand comes from the mistaken impression that naked market forces produce optimal products, services, and happiness.
Nope. I do think that economic liberty produces optimal outcomes, but that's not why I support it.
I support economic liberty because of my moral judgment that I own myself and you don't. [And vice versa.] Very few additional insights are required, once this one is grasped.
All of the nonsense in this thread about employers and employees is irrelevant. There is no meaningful economic or moral distinction between purchasing labor and purchasing anything else. The rhetorical fancies used to justify treating the purchase of labor as unique [whether presented in leftist tracts or papal encyclicals or wherever] are easily demolished rubbish.
HEB,
I just thought is was gonna be like that pooh story from yesterday. To my embarrassment it was not.
Naga,
I am not there right now. You did waste a fist shake. I am to your North and East, so you may have drafted past me anyway.
Naga the silly bear.
Radically unrestricted liberty is no liberty at all.
Please explain?
Since Tony is hung up on people starving (does he live in north korea?), I believe he means we have the liberty to support other people of the governments choice or go to jail.
Tony, the only people starving these days live in countries where there is either war or there is more government control of the economy rather than less. The German and Koreans conducted some excellent experiments demonstrating that government control causes poverty and starvation.
All of the nonsense in this thread about employers and employees is irrelevant. There is no meaningful economic or moral distinction between purchasing labor and purchasing anything else.
Indeed. Even when you employ yourself, it isnt always clear if you are an employee or an employer. Do I work for myself or for my clients? Because I call them client instead of boss, is that really a different relationship?
Is there a difference between my employees and my vendors? Both provide me services for a price.
"I support economic liberty because of my moral judgment that I own myself and you don't. [And vice versa.] Very few additional insights are required, once this one is grasped."
Very well and succintly stated.
Apparently, the market tanked after the Suit revealed its beneficent plan to save Chrysler.
See I value people not starving somewhat more than the market being pure.
I would just note that the majority of the food industry in the U.S. are not subsidized, and that creates lower food prices for all. I would also note that those areas which are subsidized make the foods made from those subsidized products more expensive for everyone. I think modern liberals basically need to shut about poverty until they can stop the government policies - like tariffs on shoes, grain subsidies, etc. - which make the lives of poor people harder. There are about a half dozen basic things like that would dramatically reduce the cost of living of the poor, and so far the political class is still sitting on their hands about them.
The German and Koreans conducted some excellent experiments demonstrating that government control causes poverty and starvation.
no, no, no, we must never cite evidence. Tony is a utilitarian, and evidence that freedom works could undercut the claim that the market is phoney magic. I get a headache from him.
I support economic liberty because of my moral judgment that I own myself and you don't. [And vice versa.] Very few additional insights are required, once this one is grasped.
One correction necessary.
I'm telling you, Obama doesn't want to run the auto industry the way I don't want to have to beat someone else's bratty kids...
HEB,
*shakes head in disappointment*
You fool! You foolish, fool! That hand shake will be waiting for you. And you're gonna feel it. When you open the door to your apartment . . . bam! There it will be.
But Paul, I'm sure it will be . . . for the childrenz.
There are about a half dozen basic things like that would dramatically reduce the cost of living of the poor
Heck, reduce/eliminate tariffs and watch the carribean/africa boom.
With a few sugar/corn tariff/subsidy changes, we could flood the US with cheap sugar.
Forcefully taking your property is not an individual economic choice. Words mean things.
Well, that's the point. Tony and MNG literally think that "restricting economic choice" is a term of art that can be applied both to laws requiring me not to rob or enslave my neighbors, and to laws requiring me to buy a new Chrysler so they stay in business. Because robbing someone and failing to buy their product are equal, if you're on the left.
Carefully consider what is meant when they talk about "maximizing the liberty of employees". Here's what they really mean: If you have a family comprised of one rich grandfather and ten shiftless, malingering grandchildren, it "maximizes liberty" to force the grandfather to support those grandkids in their idleness, because that increases the range of life choices for 10 people that now don't have to work, and you're only restricting the life choices of the 1 person who has to pay.
That's why you have to be careful when using the phrase "maximizing liberty" with a leftist. In your own mind, you're supplying a context of justice where outrages like my example aren't up for consideration, and that context is not part of the left's thinking.
Fluffy,
You're suggesting they're utilitarians? I'm not so sure.
Can we all now agree that the Democrats are the real party of corporate welfare?
With a few sugar/corn tariff/subsidy changes, we could flood the US with cheap sugar.
Are you nuts? The Haitians will eat those poor feebleminded American farmer alive if we don't keep them out of our market.
Tony, so your definition of personal liberty is YOUR personal liberty to do what you choose at the expense of everyone else's?
Freedom is not anarchy. No one here is advocating anarchy. And if, as you say, unrestricted liberty is not liberty at all, then is complete government control considered liberty by your definition or do we need "The right people in charge" to determine what the appropriate level of liberty is "just right"?
In a free market society, if there is work to be had, there will most likely be people willing to do it, thus they will not starve. The market decides what the wage will be by supply and demand. It's not a straight line, and there will be times when people don't improve their standard of living, but there will always be something to do to make a living. People may just be required to swallow their pride and go pick vegetables or clean bathrooms.
Life is unfair sometimes. Government cannot change that, no matter how much you want to believe they can.
Yes I'm somewhat of a utilitarian. But you don't grasp that I value individual liberty as much as you do--I just define it differently (in a more utilitarian way).
For you, it's all about continuously shaping, choreographing and tweaking society to make it work "best" -- with "best" being defined as some vision and standard you have. You don't take into account that others have different visions, different standards, for their own lives. Individual liberty accommodates that as much as anything can; your thing doesn't.
And do you notice that your project NEVER stops? That "best" never comes. There's always some new vision, some new standard, to attain. Stuff is never just good enough.
I don't understand why you and your ilk can't just recognize the concept of rights and liberty as the pinnacle of human advancement. I don't understand why that's not good enough -- why it's not that ideal existence. The Enlightenment already did all the work for us. The whole "best" thing? We got there, man. We did it.
But it's not enough for you. Indeed, it's nothing to you. You think that whatever your brain happens to conjure up -- "ooh, we could give everybody 'health care,' ooh, we could give everybody 'jobs' -- is now some worthy goal, some new bit of shaping, choreographing and tweaking that we can now embark on.
Why can't you just be content with the concept of liberty -- the real definition, not your arbitrary one -- and understand that the human condition will never be perfect?
Life is unfair sometimes. Government cannot change that, no matter how much you want to believe they can.
I disagree with this. Government can make it so life is unfair all the time, therefore leveling the playing field...and voila!...liberty!
The Haitians will eat those poor feebleminded American farmer alive if we don't keep them out of our market.
Yep, and maybe they will make enough money to turn their island back into a tropical paradise. More vacation spots!!
See, liberty is pragmatic.
Okay, Tom, you said it WAY better than I did.
"For many, a hammer may be all the capital they need."
"Si", said the Mexican day laborer in the Home Depot parking lot.
"'The liberty is for the employer to employ at his discretion'
I'm not an employer so this liberty don't mean much to me...I'm an employee, so making me "free" from worry of a termination at will that leaves me to the market outranks that any day."
Wow, MNG. You've just justified (in your own mind, at least) every crime ever committed. By the above "logic," one person's "freedom" to shoot people at will outranks your right to your life, simply because it's what they want.
You're not a leftist, MNG: you're an INFANT.
"I don't sell my labor; I sell my knowledge."
But you labored to gain it.
Ok, now on record: Corporate welfare increases liberty. Check.
Guess my bra size,
Which came first: Chicken or the egg? That about sums up your argument. Nice link by the way.
Your post was good, Silentz.
" He's saying we must ALLbe free from hunger, sickness, and anything bad. Otherwise, WE just aren't free."
What would you do
If you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom?
What would you do
If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice?
Would you think about all them people
Who gave up everything they had?
Would you think about all them War Vets
And would you start to feel bad?
Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty in' fee.
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?
What would you do
If someone told you to fight for freedom?
Would you answer the call
Or run away like a little ?
'Cause the only reason that you're here
Is 'cause folks died for you in the past
So maybe now it's your turn
To die kicking some ass
Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
Now there's a hefty in' fee
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?
You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?
Oooh buck 'o five
Freedom costs a buck 'o five
Naga,
You fool! You foolish, fool! That hand shake will be waiting for you. And you're gonna feel it. When you open the door to your apartment . . . bam! There it will be.
I am a property owner not a rentor. Ooops, maybe that was a clue too many for my location.
Also, since we are playing who is who, evidence is mounting on the Epi/MNG connection.
Ultimately, we can either let people determine their own path to happiness within certain limits, or we can hand the power to a group of politically motivated people to make the decisions for us. The benevolence and intellect of government players assumed by the left and by elements of the right (e.g., Bush supporters) flies directly in the face of all of the evidence to the contrary. Government makes bad decisions more often than not. Government is first and foremost about the government's well-being, not the people's. Government is peopled by a large number of idiots--look at the current composition of Congress.
Why, why, why would we want to hand even more power to some of the worst people in our society is beyond me. While the right has been walking us down the road to tyranny, I fear that today's left wants to put us in a car and drive us there.
In ancient Rome, there was a poem, about a dog who found two bones. He picked at one; he licked the other. He went in circles, 'til he dropped dead.
People can be divided into two groups: those that like to categorize people into groups and those that don't . . . no . . wait, that wasn't the point I was going for . . .
There are two fundamental ways that people look at the world. Some people belive they have little or no control over events that control their lives. Other people do believe that they have significant control over their destinies.
The first groups demands that the government protect them from forces which they cannot control on their own. This includes protection from evil corportations, greedy lobiests, and hardcore libertarians. Amazingly enough, it does not include protection from the government itself.
Why, why, why would we want to hand even more power to some of the worst people in our society is beyond me.
The right people are finally in charge. Obama is really enjoying the captain's chair in the shiny new central-planning control room that Bush built.
HEB,
I was joking. While I of course have my suspicions I don't know who you are outside of your cognomen HEB. No insult intended.
Anyways . . . Epi=MNG? I call bullshit! No fucking way . . . oh man. My paranoia is ramping up again!
Also, since we are playing who is who, evidence is mounting on the Epi/MNG connection.
So I did strike a nerve. This changes my theory on who you are, Tofu. Interesting.
"In ancient Rome, there was a poem, about a dog who found two bones. He picked at one; he licked the other. He went in circles, 'til he dropped dead."
That is so gay!
Like external locus of control or internal locus of control, right kinnath?
The Obama admiistration clearly believes it has control over its destiny. Republicans typically extend their control to some Gawd. Libertarians do the same thing, except their Gawd is a abstract concept called "freemarket".
The good thing about "freemarket" is that though fictional, this Gawd sometimes gives invisible handjobs.
Whoa! An MNG/Epi Alliance could be unstoppable!!! We'd have to assemble some sort of unified front to distract "it" while SugarFree and Joe launched photon torpodoes at its exhaust port! Oh joe! Where art thou!??!
The most important liberty is the liberty to fail.
Thus, RC'z Fourth Iron Law:
4. You aren't free unless you are free to be wrong.
Naga,
It is only an alliance of one body, two handles.
I'm not an employer so this liberty don't mean much to me
So, MNG, I guess if you're not a woman, abortion rights shouldn't mean much to you, either.
And (sorry, but this begs for a Godwin), if you're not a Jew, the Final Solution shouldn't bother you much, either.
Or, if you don't smoke pot, the WOD, etc. ad infinitum.
Guess, what, honey. Its not all about you.
HEB,
They are two people so I can only fear that you mean some sorta Borg assimilation!!!
AAAAAAAAAAiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!
And (sorry, but this begs for a Godwin), if you're not a Jew, the Final Solution shouldn't bother you much, either.
Okay, that was cheating. He is the biggest proponent of a new Final Solution on this board. The Jews can't march into the sea fast enough for him.
Here's something which occurs to me.
If Bob Nardelli, acting in his official capacity as CEO of Chrysler Corporation, had appeared on teevee this morning and made essentially the same claims regarding the future performance of Chrysler, how long would it have taken for the SEC to clap the manacles on him?
I must be good to be President, and be immune from the consequences of your actions.
Episiarch,
As immortalized in AC/DC's "Giving the Dog a Bone."
IT must be... et c
Hey!
The Suit sez the government will be ordering lots and lots of Chryslers.
How long 'til the unveiling of the Fiat 500 Presidential Limo?
I am highly offended that you would deliberately confuse Devo and AC/DC, ProL.
For those about to mock, we salute you.
"As immortalized in AC/DC's "Giving the Dog a Bone.""
Old Mother Hubbard,
Went to the cupboard,
To give her poor doggie a bone,
But when she got there,
The cupboard was bare,
So he gave her a bone of his own.
Tippy,
As you say. Frankly, I thought the song might be Episiarch's theme song, given its lyrics:
She take you down easy
Going down to her knees
Going down to the devil
Down down at ninety degrees
She blowing me crazy
'til my ammunition is dry
She's using her head again
She's using her head
She's using her head again
I'm justa giving the dog a bone
Giving the dog a bone, giving the dog a bone
Giving the dog a bone, giving the dog a bone
She's no Mona Lisa
No she's no Playboy star
But she'll send you to heaven
Then explode you to Mars
She's using her head again
She's using her head
She's using her head again
I'm justa giving the dog a bone
Giving the dog a bone, giving the dog a bone
Giving the dog a bone, giving the dog a bone
She's got the power of union
She only hits when it's hot
And if she likes what you're doing
She'll give you the lot give it everything I got
Just giving the dog a bone
Giving the dog a bone, giving the dog a bone
Giving the dog a bone, giving the dog a bone
Giving the dog a bone, giving the dog a bone
Giving the dog a bone, giving the dog a bone
I'm justa giving the dog a bone
Giving the dog a bone, giving the dog a bone
I'm justa giving the dog a bone
This thread hasn't reached ten thousand posts yet? For shame! 😉
EAT FROSTING OUT OF THE CAN UNTIL YOU WANT TO PUKE
Ah, ProL, that's pretty good, but Devo, as usual, says it better:
He's been with the world
I'm tired of the soup du jour
He's been with the world
I wanna end this prophylactic tour
Afraid nobody around here
Comprehends my potato
Guess I'm just a spud boy
Looking for that real tomato
We're Smart Patrol
Nowhere to go
Suburban robots that monitor reality
Common stock
We work around the clock
We shove the poles in the holes
The Obama admiistration clearly believes it has control over its destiny. Republicans typically extend their control to some Gawd. Libertarians do the same thing, except their Gawd is a abstract concept called "freemarket".
Obama clearly believes in the power of the machine called "government" to shape the world we all live in. This is the ultimate subservience to "extenal locus of control".
The religious wing of the Republican party does indeed focus on god as the path to the "extenal locus of control".
The libertarian view of "free market" is far more in touch with modern physics and chaos theory than religion.
I see no difference between the faith you have in Democratic rule to solve all problems and the faith a fundamentalist has that God will divert traffic while he's laying in the street. As much as the right and the left like to attack libertarians for being Utopian, the reality is that we pay a whole lot more attention to reality than either of you do.
Hear. Hear.
Libertarians are by far the most serious intellectual thinkers on the political spectrum. Not only are we more internally consistent, but from a practical standpoint, we want to limit government because we recognize the reality of human nature, rather than count on an ideal of it.
Human beings are selfish and subrational. Which is why they should not be allowed to cenrtralize power in a single entity. Human being respond to incentives, which is why blaming problems on "greed" is a nonsensical proposition.
Side note: The philosophy department here has become a hotbed of libertarianism. We're currently in a vogue moment for libertarian philosophy in academia. Rawls is out. Nozick is in.
Wrong again, Episiarch. AC/DC is the greater force in the universe. I mean, Scot/Australian vs. Akronite? There's no comparison.
Though as Mick Jagger once said, I love their version of "Satisfaction."
It's kind of late to mention this when the comment count has switched over to scientific notation, but...
Is it just me, or is having Tony here like being at a jazz club where between every set some kid yells "Play 'Footloose'! C'mon! Play 'Footlooooose'!!"
He is so in the wrong place and so annoying.
I don't miss joe, but at least he made intellectual arguments on occasion. Tony seems to have two thoughts: 'Go, Team Blue!' and 'Neener neener', and a dubious talent for expressing these with a variety of strings of morphemes.
Doesn't The Nation have a coloring book we could send him to keep him occupied?
Hazel, where is 'here' btw? That sounds like a very unusual philosophy department.
The Obama admiistration clearly believes it has control over its destiny. Republicans typically extend their control to some Gawd. Libertarians do the same thing, except their Gawd is a abstract concept called "freemarket".
The fact that you simply stop at the words "free market" and see it as some kind of singular monolithic entity betrays your ignorance of economics. The market is a process. When we refer to the free market, we're pointing out that there's an existing system of voluntary social interactions based on natural incentives already present.
The Democrats just want to appoint THEMSELVES as "Gawd", and think they can simply make the world whatever they want. They deny, and refuse to see, how humans interact with the incentives presented to them and how thise things produce perverse outcomes. They think they can simply dictate how human beings outght to behave, and punish any "greedy" individual that deviates by responding to those perverse incentives. Or "reeducate" him to behave in the "correct" fashion. Hence the PC movement. Hence the focus on doctrinaire social programming to enforce the correct values.
This is why leftists are so infuriatingly conformist. They have to engage in the most ruthless indoctrination to try to get people to stop behaving like normal biological organisms.
JB, University of Arizona
These are the things i can do without:
I don't miss joe, but at least . .
Been done enough to be drinking game caliber.
And,
'Neener neener'
I just fucking hate that expression, I can't even give you a good reason, but Gawd it is a joe gayism, and damn there were quite a few.
"The Obama admiistration clearly believes it has control over its destiny."
except in this very article where Obama is crying..."waaaaawaaaaa I don't really want to grow government and run AIG and GM...but someone is just dealing this really bad hand to me and so I HAVE TO DO IT....if my friends at Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan tell me I have to help them steal a trillion dollars then that is just the hand I was dealt WAAAAwaaaawaaah"
"Side note: The philosophy department here has become a hotbed of libertarianism. We're currently in a vogue moment for libertarian philosophy in academia. Rawls is out. Nozick is in."
I think Ron Paul has a lot to do with that. His run for president has been the biggest influence on libertarian type thinking since Ayn Rand's novels. Anybody agree or disagree?
Sorry guys, I spoofed tony, once. See the email is stevey instead of stephen. I wouldn't be surprised if others have spoofed him as well. That would explain some of his inconsistent pinhead arguments.
But I digest.
I think Ron Paul has a lot to do with that. His run for president has been the biggest influence on libertarian type thinking since Ayn Rand's novels. Anybody agree or disagree?
Nah. It started before Ron Paul. I think it has more to do with Nozick being reading and coherent, and Rawls being incoherent and unreadable.
PS: Brain Damage Causes Utilitarianism
new research reveals that there is one type of person who can quickly reach the decision to act in the greater interest of the majority - the person who has suffered damage to an area of the brain known as the prefrontal cortex.
...
The experiment was performed on six patients who have had tumors removed from the prefrontal cortex, 12 patients with other types of brain damage, and 12 healthy subjects. Each of the 30 test subjects was asked 50 questions involving moral dilemmas. Each question required a "yes" or "no" response, and the questions varied from easy nonmoral to very agonizing moral dilemmas (like throwing the person out of the lifeboat).
By significant margins, the six test subjects with prefrontal cortex damage were able to quickly arrive at the utilitarian response that saved the greater number of people. All the others had difficulty making those choices, and occasionally were unable to provide a "yes" answer even when the "no" scenario for action led to a greater number of people being injured or killed.
"These patients' judgments are different from the comparison subjects' judgments specifically for these high-conflict personal moral dilemmas," Adolphs explains. "Because of their brain damage, they have abnormal social emotions in real life, and lack a normal concern for the well-being of others. In other words, they lack empathy and compassion.
...
The conclusion is that emotions indeed play a role in moral decisions, especially those involving questions of whether the end justifies the means. In short, the people with the brain damage are quickly able to "do the arithmetic" that determines who lives and who dies.
In short, the people with the brain damage are quickly able to "do the arithmetic" that determines who lives and who dies.
Wait, so if I wanna be the guy who decides who lives and who dies I have to give myself brain damage? That sucks. I don't wanna be that guy anymore.
I really don't get studies like that... The situation is crap, the realities of the situation ever happening are rare to the point of almost being non-existent, and ultimately the solutions or the framework set up by researchers biases the experiment to begin with.
This goes back to the whole "rational" actors question as well.
One of the things that Ludwig von Mises' Human Action is most valuable for I think is exposing this kind of psychology research as shady at best. Mostly I take such things with a grain of salt anyway, but honestly - coming to the conclusion that brain damaged people are better at making "moral decisions" (which is, of course, something that varies widely from person to person yet in this case would have been defined by the researchers) would mean that we should leave brain damaged people to set policy.
It just blows my mind that someone would be so absorbed in specifics of a research experiment that they can't see the broader implications of their "conclusions".
ALSO... A test of 24 people and only 50 questions?? Seriously.
Sorry... 30 people.
Sorry guys, I spoofed tony, once.
Yeah, well, try not to do that. It preys on others' good faith.
Tony sort of spoofs himself though...
It worries me when there are people so blind to the inadequacies of their own arguments that they become their own caricature.
Please explain?
It's not that complicated. You already agree with me with regard to lots of other practical restrictions of trivial liberties in order to maximize nontrivial liberties. That traffic is regulated reduces people's liberty to drive any which way they want in order to produce the emergent liberty of being able to drive relatively free of the risk of death. Same goes for any and all regulatory constructs that make up human civilization. You probably even agree that the market must be restricted in some ways to prevent things like fraud and monopolies.
Libertarians are by far the most serious intellectual thinkers on the political spectrum.
Liberalism is the one political philosophy with any kind of national appeal that actually values evidence. IMHO before you can be an intellectually serious person you have to first understand basic logic and the role of data. Libertarians always reject scientific or academic or economic consensus when it doesn't affirm their pet theories. You have to get beyond that kind of illogic before you can even begin to claim to be intellectually serious. You're not as bad as the right who openly disdain book learnin', but your views don't come from a disinterested examination of facts but rather a top-down devotion to core assumptions.
Not all regulation. Regulations that order society in order to prevent people from harming one another through their direct actions is generally accepted as okay, like traffic laws, as you said.
The regulation that libertarians don't like are the ones that prevent people from doing things to or for themselves that have no bearing on anyone else. Government control of industries reduces the amount of things you can do without harm to others. Take government funded healthcare for example. If I'm forced to pay taxes to pay for peoples' medical bills, I'm gonna be pissed if they smoke 12 packs of cigarettes a day.
And welfare and other wealth redistribution programs aren't regulation. They're just taking from one to give to another. Even feeding the hungry. A church client of mine does a phenomenal job of goodwill outreach without any government assistance(other than the tax-free status, which isn't really assistance anyway...). Let them handle the poor, like they've always done. With VOLUNTARY contributions. Not everyone in town goes to this church, but they manage to feed hundreds of disadvantaged people very easily.
Do you agree with that assessment?
Tony, I won't really get into the "rejecting scientific or academic or [especially!] economic consensus", since for one thing, logic/facts and consensus aren't congruent concepts.
Many people over many hundreds of thousands of years have been grotesquely wrong about a great number of things - academia itself leads the way in a lot of them (speaking as someone with masters degree as well).
But the thing I cannot abide, is how you continually refuse to understand the difference between FORCE, and voluntary action.
YES, we libertarians favor government being used for it's singular purpose of protecting people's lives, liberty & property. That means we support actions taken to negate fraud, murder, theft, and other aggressive uses of force by individuals against one another.
This is the fundamental (almost the only) precept of libertarianism.
The problem is, you then leap to the assumption that freedom is enhanced by *giving people stuff* - without recognizing that the only way you can give people things like food, shelter, healthcare, clothes, water, etc. through government is by taking it from someone else by force.
That sir, is the OPPOSITE of freedom.
Seriously, the Orwellian newspeak among liberals would be impressive if it wasn't so sickening. Freedom is not slavery. These concepts are simple... but for whatever reason there is a disconnect that separates your ability to understand that using force aggressively against individuals does not enhance liberty no matter how good your intentions are.
Beyond that - history shows your intellectual arguments as the stuff that results in this:
Freedom good, socialism bad
So there definitely are a few political philosophies rejecting reality, but it certainly isn't mine.
So, utilitarians are brain-damaged? I can believe that.
No Mike, they're brain-damaged and that's a good thing!
The regulation that libertarians don't like are the ones that prevent people from doing things to or for themselves that have no bearing on anyone else. Government control of industries reduces the amount of things you can do without harm to others. Take government funded healthcare for example. If I'm forced to pay taxes to pay for peoples' medical bills, I'm gonna be pissed if they smoke 12 packs of cigarettes a day.
All you're advocating for is a pre-New Deal era of massive income inequality (sort of like we have now in the wake of Reaganomics) that sees wealth distributed not by any standard of fairness or merit but by who's lucky enough not to be old, sick, or from a poor family. The inevitable result of laissez-faire is more social darwinism, and if you're prepared to defend that on principle then go ahead, but I feel that social insurance programs that keep people out of squalor at the bare minimum actually promote individual liberty, wealth creation, and a society less burdened by crime and illness. And any examination of social metrics confirms this.
Sean,
What the fuck does North Korea have to do with anything? Just because I'm in favor of social safety nets doesn't mean I'm in favor of totalitarianism, although you guys like to confuse the two.
You seriously don't get where your philosophy leads, do you Tony...
Free, prosperous people really are your worst nightmare, aren't they, Tony? I mean, if no one needs your fucking safety nets, you don't really need to exist, do you? But of course, you'll never let that happen. You and pukes like you will forever hold people back by getting in their fucking way.
It's good for citizens to take care of one another, but the government doesn't need to have a thing to do with it.
All you're advocating for is a pre-New Deal era of massive income inequality (sort of like we have now in the wake of Reaganomics) that sees wealth distributed not by any standard of fairness or merit
Hmmm. Right here is all you need to know about Tony's particular brand of psychosis. Some people has more than others and that's not fair! It's not meritorious! So fucking what? Any system you can come up with to fix this will by some definition be unfair. So's life. It sucks. Get a helmet.
It is not anybody's job to make sure life is as fair as possible. It is, however, incumbent on us to make sure we treat people fairly. Taking money from Bob and giving it to Sam because we feel bad isn't fucking fair, either. It's especially not fair we send goons with guns over to do it. What on earth should we do about that, Tony? Should we enforce one particular brand of unfairness over another?
And any examination of social metrics confirms this.
Always show your work if you expect to be taken seriously.
Sean,
Care to present a single shred of evidence or even a plausible thought experiment about how progressive economies inevitably lead to totalitarian dictatorships? Because that sounds an awful lot like a paranoid slippery slope to me.
So fucking what? Any system you can come up with to fix this will by some definition be unfair. So's life. It sucks. Get a helmet.
Good. At least someone's prepared to defend social darwinism as the most virtuous system humans could possibly come up with. Just don't come back and say that anyone's wealth is purely a product of his ingenuity.
Mostly I take such things with a grain of salt anyway, but honestly - coming to the conclusion that brain damaged people are better at making "moral decisions" (which is, of course, something that varies widely from person to person yet in this case would have been defined by the researchers) would mean that we should leave brain damaged people to set policy.
Um...it looked like the conclusion was the exact opposite, that brain damaged people were worse at making moral decisions. Utilitarianism is fucktarded, thus those that reach that conclusion are, well, brain damaged. Making a moral decision often involves reached an end you dont particularly want. These people didnt do that.
At least someone's prepared to defend social darwinism as the most virtuous system humans could possibly come up with. Just don't come back and say that anyone's wealth is purely a product of his ingenuity.
Missed the line right before that, didn't you? I'll repeat it for you:
Any system you can come up with to fix this will by some definition be unfair.
So, Tony, explain why we should enforce your particular vision of unfairness over the preexisting one or another variety.
"I basically take Obama at his word,"
Sorry, I couldn't read anymore after that. That told me enough.
Tony:
Try opening a history book once in a while. A real one, not for 5th graders. Or simply opening your eyes to what's going on right now
Or if you really want a "thought experiment", try this... and by "thought experiment" I mean, what actually happened in many countries during the 20th Century.
It's mystifying to me that you cannot possibly comprehend that advocating a governmental philosophy which relies on committees of central planners to guide and control decisions about people's lives, as well as using force to reshape the economic and social landscape of a country leads to full-scale totalitarianism...... Your philosophy is about half way there to begin with.
Annnnd by the way, Social Darwinism has nothing to do with our position by the way, you will find a number of prominent liberals as having been the proponents of that by the way. I think we covered this once before. You are *always* free to help out the less fortunate (as I do and have done many times through various children's charities, donating blood and platlettes and generally being the good Eagle Scout I am).... you are not "free" to steal from some one else to help them however.
Put your money where your mouth is Tony, not other people's... yours. Got it?
robc:
Better at making "utilitarian" decisions, which i felt the researchers were fundamentally arguing as the more rational moral choices.
I was not suggesting they are the right ones.
Care to present a single shred of evidence or even a plausible thought experiment about how progressive economies inevitably lead to totalitarian dictatorships? Because that sounds an awful lot like a paranoid slippery slope to me.
Tony, there is a great book, written by the Nobel prize winning economist F A Hayek in 1943(?), called "The Road to Serfdom." He watched first hand as good people with good ideas turned Germany and Russian into dictatorships.
If you are going to continue to hang out on this site, I strongly recommend you read it.
Actually, I strongly recommend you read it whether you continue to hang out here or not.
(stuartl: check the link I posted :P)
That traffic is regulated reduces people's liberty to drive any which way they want in order to produce the emergent liberty of being able to drive relatively free of the risk of death.
Who said they agree with this rationale?
I concede that the state has the right to set traffic regulations for one reason and one reason only: the state owns the roads. It has nothing to do with balancing trivial restrictions against greater restrictions or any of the rest of that nonsense. If I own a large piece of property and I put a road on it, then I do not concede that the state has the right to set traffic regulations on that road, nor does it have the right to "balance" any interests whatsoever.
that sees wealth distributed not by any standard of fairness or merit but by who's lucky enough not to be old, sick, or from a poor family
Nice use of the passive voice. Who exactly "distributed" the wealth?
News flash: It is perfectly "fair" for me to exchange economic goods and services with other people who have produced goods and services of value. If there are people who, because they are old or sick or from a poor family, don't produce goods or services of any value and therefore have nothing to exchange, it may be unfortunate for them that I don't want to exchange with them, but it's not unfair. If I have a dollar and want an apple, the only possible "fair" outcome is for me to give that dollar to someone who has an apple. It would not be fair for me to lose my dollar and not get an apple, but instead get a sad tale about how someone's parents were poor so they never learned how to grow apples.
And by the way, before you harrumph and call what I am saying in this post "Social Darwinism", you might want to learn the meaning of the term. The Social Darwinists held that it was good for the poor to suffer, because this would ultimately benefit society as a whole. I am not a Social Darwinist, because I don't particularly care if "society as a whole" benefits. I just want to get an apple for my dollar. No other factor is worthy of consideration if we're talking about what is fair or just.
Second news flash: you're asking for charity for the poor, and not fairness. Charity is the opposite of fairness - it's when you give people economic benefits even though they have nothing to give you in return.
And Tony, before you jump all over libertarians because of Fluffy's position, be aware that a great number of libertarians ARE charitable. But because they want to help their neighbor, or their fellow man, or whatever.
Did you ever push back when your parents hounded you to do something over and over and over again? And then do exactly what it was that they were pushing you to do once they stopped pushing? Probably because you saw the merit in what it was they were trying to get you to do? It's like that for a lot of us. We're willing to help, but the more and more we're forced to, the less and less we WANT to help.
And if you truly believe that a free market society inevitably leads to mass suffering, you have a sad opinion of human beings. I choose to think that when someone desirs to better themselves or their situation, they have it in them to do so. And if there are opportunities to better themselves and they choose not to take them, then I shouldn't be forced to feed them, clothe them, or house them.
Care to present a single shred of evidence or even a plausible thought experiment about how progressive economies inevitably lead to totalitarian dictatorships? Because that sounds an awful lot like a paranoid slippery slope to me.
1. Nazi Germany.
Platform selections:
You see, how this works is, when the state believes it's the central power in the realm of fairness and just outcomes, the rest just falls into place. It's a philosophy that hopes, nay requires that the right people be in charge, because if you get the wrong people in charge with that much power, well, let history be your guide to what happens.
Good stuff Paul. Or take a look at any country with socialized medicine. It's not long after they start getting bogged down treating everyone's sniffles that they start rationing care. Deciding who gets what care, and who doesn't, all in the name of fairness and efficiency. That's pretty much the definition of tyranny.
Taking him at his word is part of what got us into this mess. Another part being that deadly combination of mass delirium and stupidity.
Btw, I must ask. When did our latest warlord, "escalator" in Afghanistan, serve in the military? I ask not because I actually believe in the unreasonable preposition that you have to experience something to be worthy to argue an opinion concerning it, but because it seems to be another meme that disappeared down the memory hole in time for the right people (aka Chicken-hawks) to take charge.
Yeah, that's the thing guys, Tony really doesn't understand that the stuff he advocates leads right into more and more tyranny...
Then, because he's also wholly ignorant of history - at least any of the parts that matter (i.e. he assuredly knows Hitler marched across Europe with the 3rd Reich, but he doesn't know *how* Hitler came to power, what his policy platforms were and why it worked) - he doesn't get how there is gobs of evidence for what we keep saying.
But you know what, it comes down to the this... Every (neo) Austrian Economist, I feel confident in saying all of whom are either libertarian or anarcho-capitalists, predicted the financial collapse with vivid detail and explained again and again exactly *why* it would happen. I myself have reminded people time and time again of what government was doing in the late 1990s and early 2000s, using New York Times articles no less (articles which directly contradict what their own editorial board is saying now). And yet, they were ignored and looked at as kooks...
Time and time again we find ourselves making accurate economic predictions, accurate social predictions, and accurate predictions of where various policy decisions are going to wind up - and we do it by consistently coming back to the philosophy of liberty. Yet the Tony's of the world simply refuse to open their eyes.
I've been wondering a lot lately how exactly to deal with people like him - in a real sense. I mean it's all well and good to crush his various "arguments" with a dozen libertarians floating around, but what about when you really need to change someone's mind?
That I'm still trying to figure out.
Liberalism is the one political philosophy with any kind of national appeal that actually values evidence. IMHO before you can be an intellectually serious person you have to first understand basic logic and the role of data. Libertarians always reject scientific or academic or economic consensus when it doesn't affirm their pet theories. You have to get beyond that kind of illogic before you can even begin to claim to be intellectually serious. You're not as bad as the right who openly disdain book learnin', but your views don't come from a disinterested examination of facts but rather a top-down devotion to core assumptions.
Nonsense. I hardly ever see self-described "liberals" bothering to make an argument based on logic or evidence. Rejecting the consensus is not evidence of wrongheadedness if you back your argument with your own evidence and logic, which we do. If everyone went along with consensus we'd have perfect groupthink (which is what happens in liberal circles). The fact that libertarians dissent from consensus shows that we're actually thinking critically about the issues, instead of regurgitating whatever conventional wisdom is in vogue at the moment (which is what happens in liberal circle). Liberals simply DO NOT think deeply about many issues. They spend most of the time patting themselves on the back for being "right" with "rightness" being defined as "whatever the smart people (i.e. other liberals) seem to think right now". Your views don't come about from a disinterested examination of the facts but simple conformist adoption of whatever notions are getting circulated around in your groupthink.
No Mike, they're brain-damaged and that's a good thing!
The article does tend to be somewhat supportive of utilitarianism, but it is self-subverting in that way.
By pointing out that brain damage in certain areas make people more likely to behave in a utilitarian fashion, it raises the issue of whether there is a "morality module" in the human brain, and/or whether utilitarian calculations are in a sense "inhuman".
Moreover, I would point out that the logical calculating "utilitarian" part of the brain is the same part that gets overridden by emotional mechanisms in PD and ultimatum games, when we behave "irrationally" in order to achieve some counter-intuitive long-term benefit. That is the PFC appears to have some "higher logic" to it's processes that tends to escape the "rational" mind.
IOW, utilitarianism is in a sense just as stupid as the caricature of short term self-interested decision making that we like to refer to as "greed".
And Tony, before you jump all over libertarians because of Fluffy's position, be aware that a great number of libertarians ARE charitable. But because they want to help their neighbor, or their fellow man, or whatever.
Silentz, the point isn't whether charity is or is not a nice thing. Tony asserted that a free market society would not "distribute" economic goods with "fairness" or according to "merit".
I was merely pointing out what should be obvious: that Tony was confusing the concepts of justice and charity. Because when you give something to someone who has earned it by producing some value, that's "fair". When you give something to someone who has not earned it by producing some value, that's "charitable".
Charity may or may not be a meritorious way for people to act, and you may or may not wish to be charitable yourself. But if we are talking about the proper behavior of states, then I would argue that the state must aim for justice above all things and before all things - Justitia fiat, ruat coelum.
IMHO before you can be an intellectually serious person you have to first understand basic logic and the role of data. Libertarians always reject scientific or academic or economic consensus when it doesn't affirm their pet theories. You have to get beyond that kind of illogic before you can even begin to claim to be intellectually serious.
The other problem with this statement is this:
Economics isn't actually a science. History isn't actually a science. Psychology isn't actually a science. Sociology isn't actually a science.
That means that you can't actually use the fact that libertarians interpret the economic history of the US in a way that diverges from "academic or economic consensus" as evidence of your claim. Once you get beyond extremely basic fact-claims in history [names and dates] very little else is subject to proof that is not open to dispute.
You might also want to look up the meaning of "illogic" because it really has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting a particular academic consensus.
Hazel,
Most of those studies are self-defeating in that way though. Any time a researcher concludes the humans are on average "irrational" they have to run headfirst into the problem of the fact that they themselves are humans.
There was this study we'd talked about in graduate school where researchers had concluded that humans (and chimpanzees) are irrational actors because of a game they created where there were 2 participants.
Person A is given a reward, say $100, on the condition that he has to offer to share part of it with Person B.
Person B had the option of rejecting the offer if he felt it to be unfair for whatever reason... the catch was, if Person B rejected the offer, neither A nor B would get anything.
According to the researchers, the "rational" position would be to always accept the offer, no matter how small because something is better than nothing. However, in many cases, the offers were rejected - thus proving that the subjects were acting irrationally and by extension that human beings are irrational, or at least are "often" irrational actors.
But here's the thing. The researchers don't bother to address the issue of timescale as understood by the participants. The participants know it's a test and they know (or likely assume) that there will be multiple rounds. And people can judge the value of spiting someone who snubbed you as worthwhile in a temporary situation. But there are many competing values here... fairness, greed, feelings of insult... The researchers are ultimately just ascribing their own external value judgments on the participants and then declaring them irrational....
And in doing so, especially by ascribing irrational behavior to humanity on the whole, contradicting the validity of their ability to do accurate research entirely. It just gets absurd...
Sean,
What you are talking about is called the ultimatum game, but I think you're misinterpreting the point of the results.
The issue is what the word "rational" means. In this context, they are referring to the logical, calculating, utilitarian part of the brain. The most dispassionately non-emotional.
Like with the Prisoner's Dilemma, the one-shot game would lead to a result that is mutually suboptimal if both people play their logically 'best' move. It's another classic example (Like the PD) of a situation where the Nash equilibrium is not pareto optimal.
Also, like the Prisoner's Dilemma, iterated games tend to lead to larger payoffs for both players if you play the 'irrational' move for the 'one-shot' game. However, these results hold even in one-shot games, meaning that something going on that makes people behave AS IF they were playing iterated games.
This isn't ignored by the researchers. In fact, it's practically the whole point. It demonstrates that emotional mechanisms that override 'rational' (i.e. short-term utilitarian) calculations actually result in a longer-term reward.
You may want to argue that it's still 'rational' people are just making more sophisticated long-term calculations, but that isn't really the case.
The 'dictator' (the guy making the offer) makes the offer first, then you accept or reject it. If he thinks you are being purely logical, then after he's made the offer, it's still rational for you to accept it. So the only way for him to be induced into a fair offer is if he REALLY BELIEVES you are going to make the 'irrational' choice. It's a game of chicken, really. And the best way to make sure that he really believes it, is to have some kind of localical ovverride mechanism that makes you choose to reject the offer. I.e. emotions.
So in essence, the point of this research is to explain how emotions might have evolved, and how national selection would lead to such 'irrational' behavior. Or in other words, you could say they have a 'higher rationality' than the strictly utilitarian part of the brain.
As I've argued elsewhere, none of this conflicts with market theory. In fact, it supports it. I.e. our 'irrationality' evolved specifically to overcome situations where the Nash equilibrium is sub-optimal. Without a man with a gun forcing us to make the 'right' choice.
I know what you were getting at Fluffy, I was just anticipating Tony's argument and figured I head it off at the pass.
Whoops, correction...
I should say ...
In the Ultimatum game the payoff isn't worse if both players play the 'rational' move. However, it is worse from the perspective of the accepting or rejecting player to behave 'rationally'. The Nash equilibrium isn't necessarily mutually worse, it just leads to worse outcomes for the accepting player in the long run. So it's still a sub-optimal outcome, just only from ONE players perspective. In the long-run the second player improves his outcome by behaving 'irrationally'.
It's a little different from the PD, but still another example of short-term irrational behavior leading to long-term benefits.
I think you're just getting stuck on the narrow definition of 'rationality' here. But again, the brain HAS to have the emotional override for it to work even in the one-shot (which it does). IOW, you have to be credibly crazy for someone to take you seriously when you threaten to do something crazy. if he thinks your sane, he's just going to call your bluff.
That was more or less what I was saying Hazel... I just have to point out that the researcher's conclusions, or more to the point the popularized versions of their conclusions, are used commonly to support the idea that people don't make rational choices - but that the essence of "rationality" in this case has a very specific context and is dependent on values which neither apply in the real world nor are they particularly considered as valid although I would argue that they are.
As you said, it's a game of chicken... And I would argue that it's an emotional way of making a better long-term decision.
Our sense of fairness is almost nothing but the emotional appeal forcing short-term reactions to something that will only really matter in the long run.
I just have to point out that the researcher's conclusions, or more to the point the popularized versions of their conclusions, are used commonly to support the idea that people don't make rational choices
Actually the problem isn't that people really "rational" choices. The problem is that their lack of "rationality" does NOT undermine neoclassical economic theory.
In the case of the ultimatum game and the PD, it actually makes market thoery work BETTER.
When someone behaves "irrationally" in the PD, he's cooperating. And he gets a better outcome than he would if he behaved "rationally". Without the intervention of some collective entity to force him to cooperate.
IOW, Free markets work BETTER because we are subrational. Not worse.
"Liberalism is the one political philosophy with any kind of national appeal that actually values evidence."
Wow, Tony. I honestly can't think of a statement less lacking in factual basis. Wait...
"I'm a platypus."
Does that count?
"Just because I'm in favor of social safety nets doesn't mean I'm in favor of totalitarianism,"
That, Tony, is because you fail to comprehend one immutable fact: The Nanny State (which you clearly advocate) and the Police State are THE EXACT SAME THING. You will NEVER create one without creating the other. EVER.