Conspiracy Theories

"The Political Suspicions of 9/11"

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That's the headline attached to this story in today's New York Times; a rather understated way of referencing the so-called "9/11 truth" movement. Apparently Denis Leary's television show "Rescue Me," which has something to do with New York City firemen, will feature a 9/11 truther plotline this season.  Novel idea (though long-running German series "Tatort" beat them to it by a few years), but it turns out the actor playing the nutcase conspiracy theorist is…actually a nutcase conspiracy theorist.

Claims that Al Qaeda terrorists were not solely responsible for the attacks have a lively following on the Internet, including on YouTube, but the second episode of "Rescue Me's" fifth season, starting in April, may represent the first fictional presentation of 9/11 conspiracy theories by a mainstream media company (FX is operated by the News Corporation).

"They're not discussed a lot in the press," Daniel Sunjata, the actor who plays Franco Rivera on "Rescue Me," told reporters at a television press tour last month. He predicted that the episode would be "socio-politically provocative…

Mr. Sunjata surprised some of the TV reporters when he said that he "absolutely, 100 percent" supports the assertion that "9/11 was an inside job."

The alternative theories "seem to me to make a lot more sense than the ones that are popularly espoused," he said, calling it admirable that the conversation was allowed within "Rescue Me."

Peter Tolan, an executive producer, said Mr. Sunjata is "well read" and has "done a lot of research."

A lot of shitty research, sure, but as Lionel Hutz would say, that's a kind of research. Sunjata joins an illustrious band of celebrity sleuths hot on the trail of the PNAC bombers, like Rosie O'Donnell, Willie Nelson, Charlie Sheen, James Brolin, Blink-182 star Tom DeLonge, Mos Def, and Ed Asner. The Times story provides me a pretty flimsy excuse to post the following video, sent along by Dave Weigel, of hip-hop pioneer KRS-One, long known as the "philosopher" of rap, in conversation with radio host Alex Jones. It's wonderfully incoherent—and yes, he endorses the 9/11 "truth" movement:

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  1. Novel idea (though long-running German series “Tatort” beat them to it by a few years), but it turns out the actor playing the nutcase conspiracy theorist is…actually a nutcase conspiracy theorist.

    Ron Paul?

    *ducks*

  2. “A lot of shitty research, sure, but as Lionel Hutz would say, that’s a kind of research.”

    Sung to Willie Nelson’s “The Night Life”:

    I said the wrong way,
    Ain’t the right way,
    but it’s one way.

  3. I have long ago given up the notion that most people are generally intelligent.
    Every now and then, I like to pretend.
    Then something invariably reminds me that 99.42 percent of people on earth are actually so fucking stupid that they need a fucking child’s primer on how to breathe every time they get out of bed.

  4. Then something invariably reminds me that 99.42 percent of people on earth are actually so fucking stupid that they need a fucking child’s primer on how to breathe every time they get out of bed.

    I work doing Tech Support over the phone, so I would have to say your figure of 99.42% is a bit low…

  5. In a better world, a windy, self-important hack like Leary would have had a large piano dropped on him a long time ago.

  6. I bet there are clowns under his bed.

  7. Rescue Me jumped the shark a while ago. Is anyone still watching it?

  8. Tatort! Never watched it but an old girlfriend was on it for a few episodes. Just wanted to let everyone know that.

  9. Peter Tolan, an executive producer, said Mr. Sunjata is “well read” and has “done a lot of research…”

    …and is “apparently retarded.”

  10. I used to like KRS-One when I was younger but I haven’t followed his activities for a long time. I had no idea he was so impregnably crackers

  11. When there’s facts to back it up, they don’t call it a “conspiracy theory”. It’s just a “conspiracy”. I know, it’s just more right-wing distortion. That’s the point of this site.

  12. “Rescue Me’s” fifth season, starting in April, may represent the first fictional presentation of 9/11 conspiracy theories by a mainstream media company (FX is operated by the News Corporation).

    Is Viacom a mainstream media company?

  13. db – which episodes? am a Tatort fan and am bummed that they’re not on DVD. Or at least Munich and Vienna ones…

    Sam Peckinpaugh directed at least one of them, btw.

    it’s a pretty fun series.

    some of them definitely are ?ber political. There was one where the crooked corporate farmer illegally used gene-manipulated feed for his animals that were eventually fed to a crowd of socialites, and the inspector (Brauer? – the NDR one) told the crowd what they ingested, and panic ensued. Thereby feeding into the paranoia about gene-manipulations (aka “frankenfood”)…

    *ambles off*

  14. You go, bob smith. Sock it to those libertards.

  15. Everything I know I learned from KRS-One

  16. Thereby feeding into the paranoia about gene-manipulations (aka “frankenfood”)…

    I didn’t see the show but from the way you describe it, would that be *mockery of* the paranoia?

    Or am I missing something?

  17. When I read the post the first time, I thought it said Dave Weigel *was* the hip-hop pioneer of KRS-One, and I was thinking, ‘man, that does explain everything’.

  18. VM, some episodes around 2004 to 2006 probably. Don’t think she had a recurring role. Maybe a different haircut each time or something 😉

  19. Those that support the conspiracy theory that 19 Arabians with box cutters hijacked the airliners and steered them into the WTC and the pentagon have the burden of proving their phantasmajoric conspiracy theories. Who here thinks that they could debate David Ray Griffin? And survive?

  20. As a matter of logic, one must dismiss, as out of hand, the silly suggestion that 19 arabians were responsible for 9/11.

  21. As a matter of logic, one must dismiss, as out of hand, the silly suggestion that 19 arabians were responsible for 9/11.

    That’s true. Some of them were Egyptian. Egyptians are not from Arabia.

  22. Tatort Man, I haven’t seen that show since I lived in Germany–great show. Been forever, I think.

  23. Who here thinks that they could debate David Ray Griffin? And survive?

    Personally, I’d rather drink a gallon of rubbing alcohol. The effects are probably similar.

  24. US military sent the anthrax and blamed it on a patsy (who they may very well have killed).

    Flight 93 was shot down.

    WTC7 was demolished by explosives.

    Not every conspiracy theorist is correct about everything, but on balance they get it right as often as the Michael Moynihans and Mike Laursens of the world.

  25. “may represent the first fictional presentation of 9/11 conspiracy theories by a mainstream media company”

    Viacom-owned Comedy Central’s South Park doesn’t count?

  26. Hey everybody! I know it has been a while and I just had to comment on this one. Is it just my personal experience, or have any of you run into troofers that are either blantantly anti-semitic, anti-U.S.-support-of Isreal, or at least mildly anti-semitic? Basically, every troofer I’ve ever talked to has at least one anti-jew bone in his/her body. I’ve never met a Jewish Troofer. Granted with all the above, keep in mind I try to steer clear of any troofiness.

  27. Anyone who believes the official conspiracy theory (19 Muslim extremists) either hasn’t looked at the evidence or is too narrow-minded to consider the evidence. The towers, especially building 7, wouldn’t spontaneously explode and fall at free-fall speed into their own footprints. The debris at the Pentagon suggests a missle, not an airplane. There was no plane or bodies in Pennsylvania. Also, who benefits? – wars are just what the defense contractors needed.

  28. Oh, fer fuck’s sake…

  29. [draws a bath, cuts wrists]

  30. What about the girl in the “Twilight” movie? What does she think about…oh, right. Who cares?

  31. Moynihan should debate Ray McGovern and Dr Robert Bowman….put it on reason TV and show what nutcases these guys are!

    If somebody is going to do a smearjob on “capitalism’, then they pick the worst representatives of free markets they can find. So the MSM picks George W Bush to represent “capitalism” and ignores Murray Rothbard or Lew Rockwell.

    Likewise, when Moyynihan smears 9/11 truth why do you think he mention Rosie Odonell while ignoring Ray Mcgovern(CIA),Robert Baer(ex-CIA),
    25-year German Parliamentarian and global intelligence expert Andreas Von B?low , Former Italian President and the man who revealed the existence of Operation Gladio Francesco Cossiga.

    “A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official
    story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It’s
    impossible,” said Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret).1

  32. Gabe,

    Sort of like they picked Al Gore to represent for Global Warming.

  33. Kool-

    I know many Jews who do not buy the official conspiracy theory that 19 muslims with box cutters were responsible.

  34. Elemenope-

    Who do you think here would dare debate David Ray Griffin? And survive?

  35. The evidence is irrefutable!

  36. Gore took the job…when he wins nobel prizes and academy awards for it then he doesn’t have a choice…As far as I can tell Gore is the MOST convincing global warming guy they have….who is the media’s anti-global carbon tax rep? rush limbaugh? Richard Lindzen sure isn’t ont he news very often…neither is Vaclav Klaus except when Moynihan is talking shit about him……hey wait a minute, moynihan…let me guess your biggest fears are global terrorism, global warming, the global drug epidemic and the chaotic financial system? all of which need to be dealt with using better global governance right?

  37. WOW! It took more than an hour for Dave W. to show up and spout ignorant nonsense. I do hope he was just busy and not ill from an HFCS spiked baked treat.

    Troofers are the most stubborn and willfully ignorant sort of folks, aren’t they?

  38. Elemenope-

    You may have noticed-I have, for the 10 months or so that I have posted on Hit & Run, invited any and all to carry the burden of proving that the official conspiracy theory advanced by the united states gvt. is true. I have also challenged any and all who buy the official conspiracy theory to dabate David Ray Griffin. Thus far, I have had no takers.

    I have also taken pains to state that I do not know what happened. Just as you, Joe, Epi, Fluffy, Guy Montaug, Mad Max, MNG, TAO, J sub D, Squarooticus, cunnivore, TallDave, Paul, RC Dean, Joshua Corning, Lefifti, Jamie Kelley, mediageek, Issac Barton, Taktix, Jennifer, domoarrigato, Pro Lib, Neu and Warty do not know.

  39. I know many Jews who do not buy the official conspiracy theory that 19 muslims with box cutters were responsible.

    Well, there ya have it then. Thread settled.

  40. “…Then something invariably reminds me that 99.42 percent of people on earth are actually so fucking stupid that they need a fucking child’s primer on how to breathe every time they get out of bed.”

    I don’t know that it’s necessarily a matter of stupidity.

    I had turned 20 four days prior to 9/11, and it was particularly tragic for me on many levels. Having been a member of a public school program for “gifted” students for the entirety of my school career, I was surrounded by some exceptionally sharp cookies. With the introduction of the 9/11 Truth movement to my circles, however, my life suddenly began to resemble that of a retiree living in an nursing home, watching helplessly as one after another of my comrades fell victim to dementia.

  41. Come on people, it’s obvious what the truth really is.

    Instead of 19 pissed off Muslims flying planes into skyscrapers, the reality is this:

    All of NORAD, the White House, security at the WTC, the NYPD, FDNY, all passengers of flight 92, and the entire US Air Force, was in on a conspiracy to blow up the WTC. Once the thousands of people agreed to the conspiracy, they then plotted. They decided to blow up the twin towers, however they also blew up the relatively insignificant WT7 because that would really piss a person off. It’s kind of like if your wife was raped and murdered, it wouldn’t do anything unless your dog was also killed. Then the US government shot down flight 93 just for the hell of it, or perhaps the government paid off the passengers on flight 93 and their families.

    It is very possible that all of the flight 93 passengers are living in Tahiti along with Elvis and Andy Kaufman.

    Which is more likely, I must ask.

  42. J sub D-

    The type of guys/gals that ridiculed Ryan Fredercik’s weight gain are the same types that reflexively rah rah the offical government conspiracy. Just an observation.

  43. The truly amazing thing about this conspiracy is that thousands of people were involved in it, yet nobody credible has spoken out.

  44. You may have noticed-I have, for the 10 months or so that I have posted on Hit & Run, invited any and all to carry the burden of proving that the official conspiracy theory advanced by the united states gvt. is true. I have also challenged any and all who buy the official conspiracy theory to dabate David Ray Griffin. Thus far, I have had no takers.

    You fly me out, put up my hotel, I’m there, dude. Even if I lose, I’ll get a free plane trip, hotel and food. But I don’t think I’ll lose.

  45. I have also taken pains to state that I do not know what happened. Just as you, Joe, Epi, Fluffy, Guy Montaug, Mad Max, MNG, TAO, J sub D, Squarooticus, cunnivore, TallDave, Paul, RC Dean, Joshua Corning, Lefifti, Jamie Kelley, mediageek, Issac Barton, Taktix, Jennifer, domoarrigato, Pro Lib, Neu and Warty do not know.

    Ha! That means SugarFree knows exactly what happened!. I never did trust that guy.

  46. Paul-

    Tell me why you think that you could win a debat against Griffin. Give me specifics.

    I know a guy who is LOADED. Now that I think of it, he just may be persuaded to put up the dough. This guy considers Charlie Sheen a “government plant”. But, as I said, he’s loaded.

  47. I know a guy who is LOADED

    A lot of people here sound like they currently are.

  48. Sorry Kolohe, I should have included you and Sugar Free. Unless, you guys really do know something….

  49. No Prior Collapse Induced by Fire

    The official theory is rendered implausible by two major problems. The first is the simple fact that fire has never—prior to or after 9/11—caused steel-frame high-rise buildings to collapse. Defenders of the official story seldom if ever mention this simple fact.

    David Ray Griffin, huh? Well, let’s see. Mr. Griffin, no steel-frame high-rise ever collapsed by fire? Could you please list for me, in order by date, all of the high rise buildings of similar composition to that of the twin towers which were impacted by Boeing 767’s, loaded with Jet Fuel and flying at speeds in excess of 400 – 500mph?

    Tell me why you think that you could win a debat against Griffin. Give me specifics.

    Ohhh, I won’t be allowed to debate him. I see how it works.

  50. The major problem with all 9/11 conspiracy theories is that they are all internally illogical. If the government wanted to create a fake terrorist atrocity, why bother with hijackings that may or may not work? Why not just blow up some airliners and/or blow up the WTC and blame it on terrorists? Why not just shoot a missile at the Pentagon? There’s no logical reason for all the fakery that the truthers claim exists.

    I enjoy a good conspiracy theory for kicks and giggles, but have never seen any worthwhile ones about 9/11. Frankly, I’ve seen stuff from Holocaust deniers that was more convincing, and that’s not saying much, is it?

  51. “Who do you think here would dare debate David Ray Griffin? And survive?”

    Well considering his support for Kevin Barrett, a noted holocaust denier, I’m certain that he isn’t that intelligent.

    But the people of the Loose Change movement are always good for hatin. More or less because they always take advantage of victims families.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216643725166640147&hl=en

  52. “I enjoy a good conspiracy theory for kicks and giggles, but have never seen any worthwhile ones about 9/11. Frankly, I’ve seen stuff from Holocaust deniers that was more convincing, and that’s not saying much, is it?”

    Actually they’ve joined together.

  53. The towers, however, were designed to withstand the impact of airliners about the same size as Boeing 767s.[5] Hyman Brown, the construction manager of the Twin Towers, said: “They were over-designed to withstand almost anything, including hurricanes, . . . bombings and an airplane hitting [them]”

    Hmm, “airliners”. Pretty vauge… airliners of the 767 type going in excess of 500mph? Hurricanes? Mr. Griffin, it did survive a bombing. And a hurricane is a very different thing than a 767 traveling at 500mph. Millions of residents of Texas and Florida can attest to that.

  54. Spill it, NutraSweet!

  55. And even Thomas Eagar, an MIT professor of materials engineering who supports the official theory, says that the impact of the airplanes would not have been significant, because “the number of columns lost on the initial impact was not large and the loads were shifted to remaining columns in this highly redundant structure”

    Fascinating, Mr. Griffin. So Thomas Eagar, an M.I.T. professor says the impact wouldn’t have been ‘significant’ (context needed here) but the good professor ‘supports the official theory.’

    Interesting circular logic, here. Professor makes remark about one (1) aspect of the crash– the impact, nothing about the ensuing thousands of gallons of jet fuel burning etc., one aspect which loosely makes Griffin sound like he might be on to something, but because the M.I.T. professor supports the ‘official theory’, it legitimizes Griffen’s theories even more because someone who doesn’t agree with him agrees with him on… this one aspect. The impact.

    David Griffen is about to be referenced from here on our with all lower caps. He’s losing his caps priveleges.

  56. Well considering his support for Kevin Barrett, a noted holocaust denier, I’m certain that he isn’t that intelligent.

    Actually they’ve joined together.

    Indeed! In case you haven’t been properly introduced, you should know libertymike is rather fond of the holocaust denial stories as well.

  57. Considering the fact that all of the newsclippings in Loose Change come from the American Free Press and that the major researcher on the same movie stated the holocaust never happened, it shouldn’t surprise anyone.

  58. If Reason wanted some big viewership they could host a debate and Moynihan could embarass some people real bad…but I doubt he will.

    I do find it interesting that Alex Jones and Bill Cooper had a good idea of what was going to happen BEFORE 9/11…both of them talked about it on radio and yet nobody in the media cared. Cooper was killed by police soon after.

  59. I work doing Tech Support over the phone

    Taktix is the dot-head, curry stinkin’ motherfucker takin’ our jerbs!!!!!!!

  60. Unless, you guys really do know something….

    The walrus was Paul.

  61. Likewise, the NIST Report, in discussing how the impact of the planes contributed to the collapse, focuses primarily on the claim that the planes dislodged a lot of the fire-proofing from the steel.[6]

    The official theory of the collapse, therefore, is essentially a fire theory, so it cannot be emphasized too much that fire has never caused large steel-frame buildings to collapse—never, whether before 9/11, or after 9/11, or anywhere in the world on 9/11 except allegedly New York City—never.

    He’s kidding, right? Lessee…where to begin.

    We dislodge a lot of fireproofing from the structure, returning us to a fire theory, by which griffin doesn’t abide. Because we’ve never seen it before. Ever. Never… ever ever ever. Except we’ve also never seen a 767 traveling at 500+ mph impact a building, dislodge most of the fireproofing material, and the engulf mutiple floors in burning jet fuel for a long periods of time. Ever. Never. Ever ever ever.

    So 9/11 didn’t happen the way we thought it did.

    Without reading mr griffin’s entire body of work, does he ever come around (painfully, I add) to a conclusion as to why the buildings had to fall… at all? I mean, I’m givin’ him a mulligan here (is that the proper term, golfers?). Even if I accept griffin’s… theory… what was his consclusion on the reasons for dropping tower 1, 2 and 7? Why didn’t the government just detonate a tactical nuke somewhere and say “Hey, terrorists done got hold of somethin’ a’ nasty, and we’s a gonna retaliate on ’em!”

    Much, much… muuuuuuuuuuuuch simpler than creating the most fantastically complex series of extra-plane impacting explosions to surgically drop a series of towers.

    Occam’s razor, son, Occam’s razor. The government can’t even figure out how money works, yet they can employ thousands, nay tens of thousands of individuals to carry out this incredibly complex task, and keep it all quiet. Under (I hesitate to even say this) George W. Bush. A man who (as it turned out after 9/11) couldn’t find his ass with both hands.

    You’re right, liberty. I’m convinced. So, how much water do I mix with this packet of Kook… erh, Kool-aid?

  62. Bill Cooper, the UFO conspiracy theorists. It all makes sense now. The aliens were in on the conspiracy. Perhaps it was UFO’s that crashed into the WTC and Pentagon and shot down flight 93. Perhaps bigfoot also had a role in this plot.

    You’re a genius.

  63. SugarFree,
    It’s all part of your dastardly plan to wreak revenge on these guys isn’t it?

    Y’all will note that SugarFree (if that’s his real nom de guerre) hasn’t posted since being unmasked by Kolohe as the chief conspirator of the 9/11 hijackings/twin tower controlled demolition/pentagon missile attack/alien abduction of the passengers of flight 93/and the fact that no autopsy was done on Jim Morrison. I think he’s skipped town.

  64. Those that support the conspiracy theory that 19 Arabians with box cutters hijacked the airliners and steered them into the WTC and the pentagon have the burden of proving their phantasmajoric conspiracy theories. Who here thinks that they could debate David Ray Griffin? And survive?

    Shit, I’ll debate him! But the ground rules need to be set right up front. The problem with debating Troofers is that they either change the rules mid-stream, or they start screaming. To them it is a faith which no amount of concrete evidence can assail. Debating them is like debating flat earthers.

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/911myths/
    http://www.debunking911.com/index.html
    http://www.911myths.com/
    http://wtc.nist.gov/
    http://www.csicop.org/si/9012/critical-thinking.html

  65. Michael Moynihan writes: sent along by Dave Weigel

    Isn’t this a family-friendly site? I wasn’t expecting to see tool-on-tool action here.

    Here’s an issue Dave Weigel misleads about. Really: make sure and read the underlying documents, and ask why he won’t even pick up the phone and call HI. If a source won’t confirm a reporter’s assumptions, then a real reporter will either get confirmation or will print a retraction. Instead, Weigel didn’t even have the guts to approve my reply to his idiocy.

    Now, that doesn’t mean that establishment hacks like Moynihan and Weigel are wrong about 9/11. But, the fact that Weigel substitutes bad reporting and mockery for reasoned thought doesn’t exactly give him much credibility.

  66. oh jeez, as if the troofers ain’t enough bat crazy fecal matter, lonejackoff has to weigh in.

  67. “The towers, especially building 7, wouldn’t spontaneously explode and fall at free-fall speed into their own footprints. The debris at the Pentagon suggests a missile, not an airplane. There was no plane or bodies in Pennsylvania.”

    I can maybe see how a well-meaning, and perhaps even moderately intelligent, but intellectually lazy person could be hoodwinked into believing the first of these three statements. No one who isn’t incredibly stupid or incredibly mendacious could claim to believe the latter two (especially the last, which I never heard before). If the planes never existed, what happened to the passengers on them?

    Others, what PapayaSF said. Most terrorists attacks before and after 9/11 were accomplished with bombs. Why would anyone fake an attack with planes, then do a real attack with bombs or missiles? Why not, as others have said, not just do the thing with bombs and blame the bombs on the Muslims (or “Arabians,” if you prefer?

  68. No one has sustained the burden of proving the government conspiracy theory. How many muslim terrorists and their facilitators would have to be “in on the conspiracy”? Does one really believe that they would all keep it secret and quiet?

  69. No one has sustained the burden of proving the government conspiracy theory

    That’s because you’ve yet to prove that you exist to the rest of us.

    Your move.

  70. Does one really believe that they would all keep it secret and quiet?

    No, not really. I would expect that, say, the top guy in the organization would put out statements taking credit for it. Oh, wait, he did.

    MY GOD! THEY’VE GOTTEN TO BIN LADEN, TOO!

  71. One does not have to be a disciple of Descartesian radical doubt to radically doubt goofy government fables.

  72. Joe-

    Yeah, and you eat everything that is spoon fed to you by the MSM?

  73. If the government was really behind 9/11:

    1. The planes would have crashed into the wrong buildings due to a typing error on the orders.

    2. Government unions would not have stood by and let the critical job of “hijacker” be outsourced to the middle east.

    3. The planning stages for the attack would still be in a “bipartisan” committee, with the hold ups being additional subsidies for sugar growers in Florida and money for STD prevention classes for middle school students.

  74. James kabala-

    Oh, you mean like they did at Oklahoma City?

  75. Kissinger Associatiates and the Carlyle group got to the Bin Laden family many years ago.

  76. Eggen, Dan. “9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon”, Washington Post, 2 August 2006….

    “In addition, commissioners believed that key agencies of the U.S. government, including The Pentagon, the FAA and NORAD were deliberately deceiving them,[13] and that the CIA was deliberately impeding the work of the commission.[14] On the whole, the chairmen of the commission believed the commission was set up to fail.[15]”

  77. Ha! That means SugarFree knows exactly what happened!. I never did trust that guy.

    You weren’t on the list either, Hawaii boy. *stares intently*

  78. Voros-

    The argument that the government screws everything up and is imcompetent is lame if it is offered in opposition to the propostition that folks are foolish to buy the government conspiracy theory. Think about it. The reasoning upon which you and others rest your case is essentially that of course the government conspiracy theory is true as to oppose such a position means that one believes that the government can actually carry out some objective.

    Not very logical.

  79. Oh, crap! I wasn’t on it either!

    *stares at self in mirror, passes out*

  80. Anyone else notice that whenever the troofers are called on their bullshit they immediately attempt to change the subject or simply state that anybody who disagrees with them is a sheep for providing goofy things like evidence and logic.

  81. “The argument that the government screws everything up and is imcompetent is lame if it is offered in opposition to the propostition that folks are foolish to buy the government conspiracy theory.”

    Yep, we all know that government functions always run smoothly.

    By the way, you still haven’t answered why the government shot down Flight 93 and blew up the insignificant WTC7. Are you telling me that attacking the Pentagon and twin towers wouldn’t have been enough to go to war.

    “The reasoning upon which you and others rest your case is essentially that of course the government conspiracy theory is true as to oppose such a position means that one believes that the government can actually carry out some objective.”

    It’s far more logical to believe that 9/11 was a failure on the governments part than to believe that the US Government is run by super geniuses.

  82. Several years ago the Piquette Plant, two blocks from my office, caught fire and burned to the ground (Detroit News article)
    I wandered past it a day or so later (it was still hot) and saw steel girders twisted like pretzels (I took pictures in case anyone is interested). The building was made of steel and wood, and contained furniture and groceries. Yet it got hot enough to bend steel girders. No jet fuel required.
    It was after I saw those girders that I decided that the ‘truthers’ were just nuts, rather than harboring even a tiny bit of doubt.
    Not to mention the task of keeping a conspiracy of that size secret…

  83. Isn’t this a family-friendly site? I wasn’t expecting to see tool-on-tool action here.

    Holy shit, LoneDorko actually said something sort of funny.

    And for the record, libertymike listed me because we’re both in on it. Don’t you guys get that he’s faking you out?

    Oh shit, I just blabbed. I have to go now.

  84. Just as you, Joe, Epi, Fluffy, Guy Montaug, Mad Max, MNG, TAO, J sub D, Squarooticus, cunnivore, TallDave, Paul, RC Dean, Joshua Corning, Lefifti, Jamie Kelley, mediageek, Issac Barton, Taktix, Jennifer, domoarrigato, Pro Lib, Neu and Warty do not know.

    I feel slighted.

  85. I was supposed to put WMD’s in the desert,
    but then I got high.
    I was supposed to put a birth certificate in the records office,
    but then I got high.
    Their perfect plans are all messed up,
    and I know why. (Why man?)

    Cuz I got high, because I got high, because I got high.

  86. You know, there are people who still believe that the old Fox “Alien Autopsy” show really was film smuggled out of a Secret Gubbermint Laboratory ™ …

  87. One of the frustrating things about people who doubt the idea that the buildings collapsed due to the fire is their ignorance of metallurgy.

    Yes, the fires weren’t hot enough to melt steel. They were, however, hot enough to start annealing it:

    Recovery is a process by which deformed grains can reduce their stored energy by the removal or rearrangement of defects in their crystal structure. These defects, primarily dislocations, are introduced by plastic deformation of the material and act to increase the yield strength of a material. Since recovery reduces the dislocation density the process is normally accompanied by a reduction in a materials strength and a simultaneous increase in the ductility.

    The reason why the buildings looked like they were demolished professionally is that professional demolishers try to replicate what happens when the support structure of a building undergoes nearly simultaneous, progressive failure. In the case of the fire, all the steel in the vicinity of the fire was weakened, resulting in each support having less of a safety margin. Each beam that weakened transferred load to other beams. Eventually, the load exceeds the limit, and the building begins to collapse.

  88. Hey, where’s my frickin’ airline ticket to fly out to debate this Griffin fellow? Or are you flying him out here?

    If you throw out a challenge, and someone accepts, FOLLOW THROUGH!!!

  89. The problem with the troofer movement is that it’s pretty obvious that the government screwed up big time and then tried their damnedest to cover their asses, but it’s no longer possible to put government and 9/11 in the same sentence without sounding like you are about to go on and on about your structural engineering beliefs. This really prevents an intelligent discussion on how we can prevent another terrorist attack beyond the security kabuki we have now.

  90. 9/11 truthers are the bane/”embarrassing cousin” of libertarians’ existance aren’t they? think of how yuppie republicans feel about confederate flag hicks or mainstream democrats feel about nader/green party kids, that’s the best analogy i can think of.

    i feel like the reason/southpark/pennandteller sect of libertarian is trying very hard to distance themselves all the time from the 9/11 truth movement. i’m not a 9/11 truther but that penn and teller:bullshit episode about conspiracy theorists was as intellectually lazy and unfair as a michael moore movie (a comparison i’m sure penn would hate). i’m not a conspiracy theorist but i think there is something valid about at least 10% of the theories about the jfk assasination, rosewell, and 9/11. the only big ones i really have no tolerance or time for listening to are conspiracies from holocaust skeptics and people who don’t think we landed on the moon. that shit is just stupid.

    why is most of the commenters here completely dismissive of 9/11 conspiracies but seems to generally believe in a conspiracy of bias amongst the scientific community about global warming?

  91. David Ray Griffin (born 1939) is a retired professor of philosophy of religion and theology.

    Ah yes, if I was going to talk to someone about the properties of steel and the behavior of structural members when subjected to fire I would totally ignore my engineering professors and my colleagues at the steel companies that I’ve worked for and go straight to a retired professor of philosophy of religion and theology.

    Geoff Nathan and tarran have pretty well covered the subject.

    But, libertymike, the fact is, I don’t really give a shit about what you think of me or what your opinion, or anyone else’s, is on the 9/11 attacks but, really, is it so hard to spell my name correctly?

  92. 9/11 truthers are the bane/”embarrassing cousin” of libertarians’ existance aren’t they? think of how yuppie republicans feel about confederate flag hicks or mainstream democrats feel about nader/green party kids, that’s the best analogy i can think of.

    I’ll give you the first two, but as for the third one, my impression is that mainstream democrats regard the nader/green hippie crowd as charming reminders of their idealistic youth. Anyway, it’s way cooler (as far as pop culture is concerned) to be a left-wing radical than a southern redneck.

    Otherwise, how do you explain the complaints (up until recently) about the “apathy” and “lack of activism” of “today’s youth”.

  93. Yes, the fires weren’t hot enough to melt steel. They were, however, hot enough to start annealing it

    As someone who spent two years in Mechanical Engineering that one jumped out immediately.

    Heck, it wouldn’t have had TIME to melt the steel, the building would have collapsed long before it actually melted. Duh. What do they think it’s going to remain standing right up until the steel liquifies?

  94. What do they think it’s going to remain standing right up until the steel liquifies?

    YOU THINK THAT’S NOT WHAT IT DOES????

    SHEEP!!!!

  95. So much for “reason.” The fact that you would bash people who dare to question the government’s official story on something shows that this is not the publication I thought it was. I am unsubscribing.

  96. Jesus, peep the size of the MOUTH on “KRS-One”…how many billiard balls do you reckon that maw could accommodate?

    (I’m thinkin’…five.)

  97. What’s funny to me is that Dennis Leary is as far from a truther as one gets–he’s the anti-twoofer. Yeah, I saw it on Bill O’Reilly. But good for him.

  98. I’ll give you the first two, but as for the third one, my impression is that mainstream democrats regard the nader/green hippie crowd as charming reminders of their idealistic youth. Anyway, it’s way cooler (as far as pop culture is concerned) to be a left-wing radical than a southern redneck.

    Otherwise, how do you explain the complaints (up until recently) about the “apathy” and “lack of activism” of “today’s youth”.

    you may be right but since the 2000 election, i’ve noticed a lot of anger and impatience from democrats towards green party/nader voters/leftist college students for not getting in line with the rest of the left and voting for democrat nominees. also the obama/the clintons/joe biden/joe lieberman/john kerry wing of the democratic party don’t seem to me to want anything to do with these kids cause they’re afraid they’ll hurt their chances with middle america working class voters and independants.

  99. but dems have to worry about nader/green party as much as they used to though, i think. the bush win in 2000 scared most of the left off of voting for 3rd party candidates for at least a generation, for the most part. plus obama’s pretty popular.

  100. *dems DON’t have to worry about..

  101. Sorry, it took me time to get to my secret bunker on the moon.

    I do know what happened on that horrible day.

    A number of intelligent and not-so-intelligent people converted the shock and grief they experienced into a belief system that let them believe they could do something to “help” rather than face the helplessness of possibly being subjected to the same sort of random, violent, senseless death. If they could make sense of the senseless it put a measure of control back into their lives, a stable place to stand where before they hung over an abyss of nothingness. For some it is the desire to have someone living and accessible to blame, a motivation of justice or revenge. For others it is a rejection that such a simple plan could kill so many people in such a horrific way. It has to be more elaborate because they want it to be more difficult than 19 guys with boxcutters exchanging their lives for almost 3,000.

    While I resent their outrage that libertarians and anarcho-capitalists don’t automatic fall in line, I try and have empathy for their plight. 9/11 was a a hammer blow to the American psyche; almost everyone cracked a little, some shattered completely. And an unlucky few put themselves back together all wrong.

  102. “You may have noticed-I have, for the 10 months or so that I have posted on Hit & Run, invited any and all to carry the burden of proving that the official conspiracy theory advanced by the united states gvt. is true. I have also challenged any and all who buy the official conspiracy theory to dabate David Ray Griffin. Thus far, I have had no takers.”

    uh, really dude, we’re just not that into you.

  103. Isaac Bartram-

    I apologize for the misspelling.

    However, why the anger? All I said was that you, amongst others, do not know what happened.

  104. As a 9/11-Truther I have long searched for people who are willing to defend the official conspiracy theory peddled jointly by Bush and Bin Laden. I finally found one here. Thank you for demonstrating your great analytical and logical skills in rebutting our nutty theories. You made my day.

  105. libertymike

    The only anger is about mispelling my name.

    Everyone seems to manage to get one or the other wrong but you managed both, and spectacularly, I might add. 🙂

    Seriously, though, you still have to explain to me why I should pay attention to a crackpot with zero expertise in any of the subjects involved, when people who know something about the subject have already weighed in.

    And really, did Bush and Cheney graduate from the Dr Evil Institute or something? Because that’s the level of the convoluted plan that we’re seeing here.

    It’s funny in the movies. Here, it’s just sad.

  106. Aren’t we the most powerful nation on Earth? Where the F— was our military when those planes started crashing into the most important buildings in the US? You mean to tell me that any old plane can crash into the PENTAGON?

    That’s an honest question. I’m no truther, I’m just asking a question. Go ahead. Throw the insults, call me a moron. But at least I’ve got the balls to ask questions. I never thought that libertarians would be so blindly closed to free inquiry and controversial discussion. For shame! I’m yet to hear a good explanation for how the pentagon can so easily be attacked.

  107. As a matter of logic, one must dismiss, as out of hand, the silly suggestion that 19 arabians were responsible for 9/11.

    I, for one, have never believed that horses had anything to do with 9/11.

    Muslim fanatics? That’s different.

    And even Thomas Eagar, an MIT professor of materials engineering who supports the official theory, says that the impact of the airplanes would not have been significant, because “the number of columns lost on the initial impact was not large and the loads were shifted to remaining columns in this highly redundant structure”

    As indeed happened. The towers were not knocked over by the airliners. They fell when the fires weakened the structural supports.

    Most conspiracy theories follow the same general pattern – take a bunch of facts/assertions/speculations out of context, string them together to support a preconceived notion, and utterly ignore Occam’s Razor.

  108. Just as you, Joe, Epi, Fluffy, Guy Montaug, Mad Max, MNG, TAO, J sub D, Squarooticus, cunnivore, TallDave, Paul, RC Dean, Joshua Corning, Lefifti, Jamie Kelley, mediageek, Issac Barton, Taktix, Jennifer, domoarrigato, Pro Lib, Neu and Warty do not know.

    I feel slighted.

    I feel honored. And slightly dirty, all at the same time.

  109. Hey, at least he spelt your name right. 🙂

  110. We do have the most powerful military in the world. However, despite having a larger ‘defense’ budget than all the rest put together, we find it difficult to attack and occupy two third-world countries at the same time.

    The idea that the US government could carry out this vast conspiracy, successfully, without any witnesses or evidence, has yet to be explained.

    All the conspiracies have been well swept aside. Why cling to this Alex Jones bullshit? This is the same man that thinks the Rockefellers and Rothchilds want to kill 80% of the world’s population. You can see a marked difference in quality of life from those that believe the world has it out for them and those that don’t.

  111. Aren’t we the most powerful nation on Earth? Where the F— was our military when those planes started crashing into the most important buildings in the US? You mean to tell me that any old plane can crash into the PENTAGON?

    Go grab a map of the D.C. area. Find the Pentagon. Now go find Ronald Reagan Airport. Consider their proximity to each other. Flying an airplane into the Pentagon, even with jet fighters already in the air, would be a piece of cake.

    Points of fact: There was no shoot-down policy for hijackings prior to 9/11, as they were history’s first suicide hijackings; shooting down a civilian aircraft was absolutely forbidden before 9/11; it takes time to scramble jet fighters, get them into the air, and intercept a craft; even if we are on full alert with fighters in the air, you don’t give authorization to shoot down civilian planes when DOZENS of civilian planes were still in the air along the Atlantic seaboard, some even still taking off from an airport mere miles away; this isn’t a freaking movie, what makes good drama in the cinema does not translate into reality.

    p.s. Last November I flew over D.C. in a 727. I looked out my window and and down and saw the Pentagon. The plane wasn’t directly over, or I wouldn’t have seen it, but it was close enough that nothing could have stopped the plane if the pilot decided to aim for it.

  112. As indeed happened. The towers were not knocked over by the airliners. They fell when the fires weakened the structural supports.

    The fires in the building were not hot enough to melt steel. No steel skyscraper has ever collapsed due to fire. On 9/11, three steel skyscrapers imploded on themselves. There was molten steel in the wreckage for weeks afterward. It is not possible for the fires to have caused this. The only explanation that could possibly work is the use of pre-placed thermite to demolish the buildings. BYU physics professor Dr. Steven Jones proved the presence of thermite in dust and steel from the collapsed twin towers. See his presentation about how the towers collapsed here: http://www.indytruth.org/videos/0501-911.html

  113. “So much for “reason.” The fact that you would bash people who dare to question the government’s official story on something shows that this is not the publication I thought it was. I am unsubscribing.”

    Good, we don’t need unreasonable people to subscribe to reason.

    “The fires in the building were not hot enough to melt steel. No steel skyscraper has ever collapsed due to fire.”

    How about a fucking jet hitting it at 500 miles per hour moron. Somehow these 9/11 troofers always forget that a jet flew into a building.

    “There was molten steel in the wreckage for weeks afterward. It is not possible for the fires to have caused this.”

    Already debunked by thinking people.

    http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm

    “The only explanation that could possibly work is the use of pre-placed thermite to demolish the buildings.”

    Odd that all of those employees at the World Trade Centre never noticed the months of preparation for a demolition eh?

    “BYU physics professor Dr. Steven Jones proved the presence of thermite in dust and steel from the collapsed twin towers. See his presentation about how the towers collapsed here:”

    Good to see that 0.01% of the Physics community believe 9/11 was comitted by aliens. Bravo.

    Now I can’t wait for the troofers to start trumping up the victim card and telling us all how we’ve been duped by the Jews and the media.

  114. The fires in the building were not hot enough to melt steel.

    Typical Troofer tactic: repeat the debunked claim over and over and over and over until the other side gets so nauseated that they leave in disgust. This very point was debunked IN THIS VERY THREAD! Yet he continues to make this stupid point about melting steel. Over ad over and over and over.

    p.s. Here is a Google map of the Pentagon and Ronald Reagan Airport. Notice how the end of the runway points straight at the Pentagon only one half mile away! If the Troofers are correct that the policy is to shoot down any low altitude civilian aircraft that comes close to the Pentagon, then they should be shooting down every plane that attempts to takeoff or land from that airport.

  115. Dude.

    There’s a “waterfowl sanctuary” at the end of one of National Airport’s runways?

    Oh, well. At least there’s a river conveniently located nearby.

  116. “p.s. Here is a Google map of the Pentagon and Ronald Reagan Airport. Notice how the end of the runway points straight at the Pentagon only one half mile away! If the Troofers are correct that the policy is to shoot down any low altitude civilian aircraft that comes close to the Pentagon, then they should be shooting down every plane that attempts to takeoff or land from that airport.”

    At the very least, there would be a note in the Jepp manual advising pilots to watch for SAMs . . .

  117. There is actually an answer for inDglass | February 3, 2009, 4:15pm.

    There’s just no point in giving it.

  118. Lot of talk here about the towers’ collapses, so let’s look at them in more detail.
    Two things damaged the towers, the kinetic energy of 500mph planes and the kerosene fires. Much of the planes’ impact was absorbed by the outer steel columns, several of which completely severed. Only the dense landing gear and engines would have been able to do much damage to the inner columns, cutting at most two or three. The core structures were minimally damaged, maybe 5 – 10%. The towers were built with much more redundancy than that. The planes that hit them were barely bigger than the 707’s they were designed for, and even at twice the speed, the 757’s were insignificant compared to the mass of the towers.
    Now the fires. Most (70%? 90%? I’m guessing, tell me your guess) of the fuel burned off in the initial fireballs, largely outside. The fires that remained weren’t near the temperature potential for kerosene, they weren’t being fed oxygen and they had black smoldering smoke. A firefighter said they could put them out with two water lines. The fires weren’t being aimed at the columns, they were scattered and relatively small. People were alive in, and looked out of, the floors that were hit.
    Now the collapses. Let’s look at a worst-case scenario, say half the support columns (instead of 5-10%) are cut at one floor and there’s a ten foot gap. How would the collapsing top continue at free-fall speed thru the path of most resistance, thru a structure built to hold many times the weight of it? You don’t think it would take a second or two per floor, or get unbalanced and topple off the side?

    Is there anyone who still believes Kennedy was killed by a lone nut? Bush Sr helped with that one. Bush Jr’s role was easier, and he almost fucked it up. The cia is pretty professional, they can keep secrets.

  119. So do you have any proof beyond “an anonymous firefighter said” or “their was no oxygen being fed to the fire.”

    “The core structures were minimally damaged, maybe 5 – 10%.”

    Cite.

    “Is there anyone who still believes Kennedy was killed by a lone nut? Bush Sr helped with that one.”

    Really, while Bush was an oilman he was involved with the assassination of JFK. If nobody in your group believes Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy I suggest you get out more.

    “The cia is pretty professional, they can keep secrets.”

    Not when the conspiracy apparently involves thousands of people.

  120. How can any person with half a brain can actually state that the US Government planted tonnes of explosives in the World Trade Center with absolutely not proof to back it up.

    http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/466.pdf
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2001/09/12/AR2005033107985.html

    Unlike the troofers I can back up my science.

  121. That’s some damn funny shit Hans.

    Hey, what about the birth certificate?

  122. I really think that the words

    “Denis Leary”

    should be replaced with

    “that coporate whore who stole the latter day prophet Bill Hick’s routine”

    on any respectable webpage

    for example

    Apparently that coporate whore who stole the latter day prophet Bill Hick’s routine’s television show “Rescue Me,” which has something to do with New York City firemen, will feature a 9/11 truther plotline this season.

    “two packs a day? why don’t you just put on a dress and swish about. Real men use two lighters a day”

  123. You have always wondered, ever since it happened, why the military response on the morning of September 11, 2001 seemed so . . . confused. You had always heard that the Pentagon was “the most protected building in the world.” You’d think that, a half hour after two airplanes had both struck bull’s eyes on the jihadists’ favorite target, and there were reports of as many as thirteen hijackings in the air, Andrews Air Force Base, right next to DC, might have had something scrambled. Especially since that’s supposed to be one of their missions. And why were so many military and intelligence, and even FEMA exercises scheduled on that very day? What a coincidence!

    It’s always interested you that the plane (or whatever it was — Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski, who worked in the Office of Special Plans, went out right after it happened and didn’t see any evidence of a plane) that hit the Pentagon, hit the section that held the records of the missing $2.3 trillion that Secretary Rumsfeld had just reported to Congress the day before. Another amazing coincidence! Just like the coincidence that when World Trade Center Building 7 for some mysterious reason collapsed on the evening of September 11, twenty minutes after the BBC had reported it had fallen, it took with it the records of the Security and Exchange Commission investigation of those old Bush family friends, the Enron Corporation.

  124. As far as thousands of people keeping a secret, consider the Manhattan Project which was kept secret by more than 10,000 people to such an extent that the VICE PRESIDENT of the U.S. at the time didn’t know about it until he became president.

  125. “Alberta Libertarian | February 2, 2009, 7:41pm | #

    The truly amazing thing about this conspiracy is that thousands of people were involved in it, yet nobody credible has spoken out.”

    You’re the only one claiming that “thousands” were in on it.

    Hell, it’s almost as silly as claiming only 19 were in on it too. Isn’t it?

    Oh well. If Dick Cheney was in charge of NORAD on 9-11, I guess everything went as planned.

  126. Yes, and all these “nutballs” endorse the 9/11 truth movement:

    160+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
    660+ Engineers and Architects
    170+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
    350+ Professors Question 9/11
    230+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
    190+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals

    source: http://www.patriotsquestion911.com

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