The Friday Political Thread: Plumbing New Heights

"Contrary to the rumors you have heard, I was not born in a manger. I was actually born on Krypton and sent here by my father, Jor-El, to save the planet Earth."
- Sen. Barack Obama

The Week in Brief
- Obama. McCain. Debates. Over. Finally.
- The Democrats let themselves daydream about 60 Senate seats, and editorial boards trembled.
- Joe the Plumber got famous.
- Bloggers declared war on him.
- Frank Gaffney went insane.
- Newspapers broke for Barack.

Below the Fold
- RealClearPolitics has a great table of state-by-state polling. In short, Obama is outperforming Gore and Kerry everywhere except Massachusetts, Louisiana, Tennessee, Alabama, and Arizona. (He's behind the Gore 2000 number in New Jersey, but not by enough to make the state competitive.)
- One more thing from RCP: After all that summer hype about Obama underperforming the rest of his party, it's a pretty close call these days. Democrats lead the battle for Congress by nine points; Obama leads McCain by seven.
- Daniel Larison sighs at conservatives' argumentum ad Reaganum in defense of Palin.
- Jim Henley musses up Michael Gerson's hair.
- Peter Suderman misunderestimates W.

This week's Politics 'n' Prog is all about John McCain's new best friend, and his message of the week.

Comments

[Don the libertarian Democrat]

Here's a couple of great stories:

See, I'm not feeling good about government spending and regulation getting better. Via the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/16/AR2008101603936.html?hpid=moreheadlineslocal

"As District officials continue to review what went wrong with a jobs program that overspent its budget by $30 million, a Washington Post examination has found that the city's willingness to pay private organizations thousands of dollars in fees for each student contributed to the overspending.

Overwhelmed by 20,000 job-seekers, the D.C. Department of Employment Services agreed, sometimes frantically, to pay 35 vendors to work with them. City officials ignored a cost limit imposed in past years and failed to monitor how the money was spent, according to The Post's review.
Vendors took advantage of the lack of oversight; some charged more than their contracts allowed and others made changes to their service agreements. "

Read it, I suppose. Small change, you say. More like an example of why these programs go wrong.

And:

Some bad local news on Bloomberg:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aCdkICM3naWs&refer=home

"Seattle Music, Fireworks Fans Fret as WaMu Bust Threatens Funds

By Peter Robison and Pham-Duy Nguyen

Oct. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Weeks before Washington Mutual Inc.'s bankruptcy, Seattle arts philanthropist Jim Tune met with his staff at a wooded retreat to discuss how a lagging economy might hurt donations. The company that donated the meeting space: WaMu, the city's homegrown thrift.

WaMu's collapse last month has sent chills through the city's charities as well as depositors and employees. The 119- year-old bank sponsored an annual Fourth of July fireworks show, gave money to food and shelter programs, and supported the Seattle Symphony and theater groups.

``It's bad timing,'' said Claire Acey, a spokeswoman for Northwest Harvest, a food bank in Seattle. ``We're just now seeing layoffs and unemployment rising. We're likely to experience a decrease in donations.''

I guess private business is important for charity and aid in a community.

[joe]

That drum kit has its own area code.

[shecky]

Larison is a consistently good read. Thanks for the pointer.

[Orange Line Special\'s special]

1. Here's my completely voluntary endorsement of Obama. Please join with me in welcoming Hope and Change... --- ...Please do not resist.

2. Xenophobes unmasked!

3. Instead of "Joe the Plumber", how about "Pete the Prosecutor"? Asking BHO a "prosecutorial-style" question could change the election overnight.

4. Here's this week's anti-prog.

[Bingo]

God damn, LW sure does get around. From the Daniel Larison article:

24AheadDotCom, on October 17th, 2008 at 2:20 pm Said:
I've already posted similar things here in the past, but let's boil down the choices: [insert McCain shilling here]

What the hell does this guy do all day?

[Elemenope]

What the hell does this guy do all day?

Which hand are you talking about?

It makes a difference.

[the innominate one]

Would the staff at reason at least consider banning OrangeLineSpecial? Prettyplease?

[Neu Mejican]

joe,

That drum kit has its own area code.

Yeah, but this one has weather systems

http://www.terrybozzio.com/images/home/2.03.05.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvCVlmhRQds (playing the silly drums)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV9WlgC5oWo
(setting up the silly thing)

[Franklin Harris]

Frank Gaffney went insane.

He was already insane.

[Neu Mejican]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBMzUgYbegQ

The anti-Natalie Merchant pick of the week.

Betty Davis

[Elemenope]

Would the staff at reason at least consider banning OrangeLineSpecial?

But he provides a valuable public service!

He lets us know what Lou Dobbs' America is thinking, so we don't find ourselves accidentally thinking the same thing.

[Eric Atkinson]

The MSM has done more investigating of Joe the Plumber in two days, than then they did of BHO in two years.

No bias here.

[James Butler]

I'm glad the drum sets have been introduced ...

Neil Peart (Rush): Seminal drummer, advanced the tradition of humongous kits (building on John Bonham's example), big fan of Ayn Rand.

Terry Bozio (Missing Persons, Zappa): Inventor (those are his inventions he's playing), just as good as a drum machine, fond of massive quantities of makeup, well-known leftie.

Big kit, traditional approach = Right Wing
Big kit, freaky creativity = Left Wing

I'm just saying ... it's FRIDAY!

[James Butler]

"Bozzio" ... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Franklin Harris]

He lets us know what Lou Dobbs' America is thinking, so we don't find ourselves accidentally thinking the same thing.

If he'd just talk about UFO's, too, Dobbs would be just like the "patriot radio" nitwits of the 1990s.

[Franklin Harris]

UFOs. Not "UFO's". This place needs an edit button.

[Orange Line Special]

Eric Atkinson: I eagerly await the day when Barack Obama's Neighbor2Neighbor program begins so that comments like yours can be dealt with. Discovering "Samuel the Plumber"'s past is in the vital national interest. Trivial matters like Barack's college applications (#18) are not. There's a reason why he doesn't want to release things like that.

Please do not resist...---... Please help me, and join with me to promote Barack's vision for
HealthEducationLibertyPeaceManagementElectrification.

[Mr. Nice guy]

I realize this makes me more supsect since I already agree in part with Lonewacko on immigration, and I've already made my opinion known on this subject, but dammit, Natalie Merchant is nice. Not great, mind you, and, a la Lisa Loeb I note her decline when getting too big for her band, but still, she's nice.

[Mr. nice Guy]

"The MSM has done more investigating of Joe the Plumber in two days, than then they did of BHO in two years."

Yeah, Eric, because I've never, ever read an in-depth article on Obama. Oh, actually I've read enough to make me sick. For about two years now.

I hate to ask you a Sarah Palin question, but what magazines and newspapers do you read that you have not found many articles on Obama?

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Joe the Plumber has done more press conferences than Sarah Palin.

That should tell you something...

[brotherben]

and didn't struggle against katie couric's massive intellect.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

We used to hear all the time here that the "MSM" was "in the tank" for HRC. Suddenly they are "in the tank" for her opponent, which, considering they were visuable opponents for quite a while, is quite impossible.

When one hears "the 'MSM' is not hard enough on Obama" one should read "the MSM is not saying exactly what I am convinced of about Obama."

[joe]

LoneWacko, Barack Obama is going to cruise to victory in seventeen days, he's going to be sworn in as President in January, and the next eight years are going to go by for you with exactly the same empty, pointless life you're leading now.

[Neu Mejican]

James Butler | October 17, 2008, 7:42pm | #
I'm glad the drum sets have been introduced ...

Neil Peart (Rush): Seminal drummer, advanced the tradition of humongous kits (building on John Bonham's example), big fan of Ayn Rand.

I think he is more in the Carl Palmer Tradition. Bonham never really had a lot of drums. I think just a basic 5 piece with a couple timpani thrown in.

Terry Bozio (Missing Persons, Zappa): Inventor (those are his inventions he's playing), just as good as a drum machine, fond of massive quantities of makeup, well-known leftie.

Too much time on his hands?
Also in the Palmer tradition. Palmer's set was custom made and included some of the earliest synth triggers.

[brotherben]

Palmer wanted to take lessons from Peart. Peart listened to him and said," not much to work with here, it's not worth my time.

[brotherben]

IMHO, Bonzo and Page were the finest pairing of musicians in the history of the universe. Neither one was overpowering alone, but together they were hip as grits.

[Neu Mejican]

brotherben,

Subjective drummer opinion fight?
Is that what you want?

I'll shoot for some objective measures.

1) at 16 I could play all of Peart's recorded output drum for drum.

2) at 16 I couldn't play all of Palmer's recorded output. Some of the stuff he did was either faster or more rhythmically complex than I could do at the time.

3) Bonham played with more soul than either put together.

4) Stewart Copeland along with Bonham showed me that it is not what you play but HOW you play it that matters.

To sum up.
Peart can school stoned high school students.
Palmer has better hands, but no more heart.

[Neu Mejican]

[somewhat] Obscure drummer pick:

Martin Atkins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Atkins

Flowers of Romance has Bonham-good drumming.

[brotherben]

NM, granted. It is Peartinant, I'm certain, that i have listened to a lot more of Rush's catalog than of ELP's. It is possible I haven't heard Mr. Palmer at his strongest.

[brotherben]

I've always had a bit of love for Kieth Moon. his mania was brilliant to my ears.

[Neu Mejican]

Martin Atkins with damage manual

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmoVIKDlZS8

[brotherben]

and his twin brother keith as well.

[Neu Mejican]

brotherben,

Moon was the man.
Both hands and heart.
Never matched.

[Neu Mejican]

Another 70's drummer that was influential on me...

Bill Bruford (King Crimson, Yes).

But perhaps the best rock drummer of all time was Can's Jaki Liebezeit. No one could lock into a groove like that dude.

[brotherben]

People always talk about the singer or the guitar player. I don't think most realize that a drummer can make or break a song. Counting Crows are a great example. the drummer on "August and Everthing After" is the one that sets the emotion in their songs. He has a way of either dragging you around or pushing you into the next phrase.

[brotherben]

I never got into King Crimson. I may have been too immature at the time and never tried them again. I do love early Yes. My oldest brothers got "fragile" and "yessongs" when I was in grade school and it was mezmorizing.

[joe]

Holy crap. Martin Atkins gets around.

I used to own a Pigface album.

[Jim Bob]

Ah, the SS Bozzio. I remember that kit, and the custom line of cymbals he had with Paiste that, well, sucked.

Stuff I've been digging lately.

[Zubon]

How did LoneWhacko just read past Barack Obama admiting that he is not a natural citizen? The quote is right there at the top of the post!

(Actually, he may have discussed it extensively at HisBlog for all I know. I stopped visiting there since hearing that he was SecretlyBorn InMexico. He refuses to provide a verifiable copy of his BirthCertificate to disprove these well known and well founded accusations. It would be so easy to do. What is he hiding?!)

[daveylee]

Hey Neu Mejican - How long ago was it that you were 16? I'm guessing it was a while ago. That being said, Peart has done some amazing stuff in the past 15-20 years. Not sayin' you couldn't play it (No idea what your skill level is), but the man has heart and the most amazing hands and feet I've ever had the pleasure of seeing. Not to mention writing all of those lyrics!

[daveylee]

James Butler -

Peart was only a middling Rand fan, and that was 30 years ago. He has since sort of disavowed that philosophy, and has become a bit more left of center IMHO. Actually quite a bit, really. Read some of his books if you haven't. Not too much Randian in his outlook these days.

[BakedPenguin]

I don't think there's a rock band on the planet that could match the raw talent at rythym section of Keith Moon and John Entwistle.

[BakedPenguin]

I read "Masked Rider" by Peart. There was little, if anything, that could be described as politics in that book.

[dhex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxNq05ukmuY&feature=related

derek roddy is a fuckin' machine.

[Guy Montag]

This is Leftoid attack on a plumbing firm employee getting even funnier.

Some 'professional' media type spews the nonsense that the McCain campaign should have "vetted" this plumber employee 'better', LOL!

For those missing the funny there, it is the ultimate in nannyism "not my fault, you should have stopped this from happening" crap that the Left continues to shove at everybody else.

Do these people calling for McCain to "vett" every single person who might ask Sen. Obama a question, FROM THEIR OWN PROPERTY (oops, private property, bad concept for Leftoids) have any idea how moronic they sound to normal people?

But wait, there is more! Somehow a $1200 tax lein, on a guy who is taxed over his ears anyway and asking to please not have his taxes raised any more, is "evidence" that this fellow is somehow of bad character? Nice! Sounds a little like that badly disguised notion that income belongs to the government and the earners are allowed to keep what they "need".

OMG! He does not even have a plumber's license, even though he is not required to have one in his current employee capacity! Better send in the SWAT team! Remember, unwashed masses, one should not work anyplace without a license unless you are in the country illegally.

Sen. Obama declares he wants a tax on all revenues over $250,000. That gets translated (by Sen. Biden, and others) into the man declaring that he makes over $250,000 already. Criticizing the mischaracterization is met with "Joe the Plumber must be confuzed". BTW, *if* any plumbers do live in Sen. Bidens' neighborhood, they probably do clear over $250,000.

ROFLMAO, the world of the Leftoid is better than watching the Marx Brothers.

[posted in an earlier thread, but relevant here too]

[joe]

Plumbing firm employee?

Is that like WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION-related program activities?

[joe]

ROFLMAO

You know, I don't believe you. I don't think hilarity is actually what you're feeling as you watch this election unfold.

Just a hunch.

Hope ya like community organizing, diplomacy, and Kenyans, Gai.

[Minion of URKOBOLD]

Was f?r ein Kerl Monday!!!!!

THE WMDS WERE THERE. THEY WERE DISCOVERED WHEN THEY PAINTED THE SCHOOLS.

SCHOOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE WEIBSKOBOLD SHALL TAKE AWAY Hrn. MONDAY'S COOKIE.

[James Ard]

Charlie Watts on Get Your Ya Yas Out is an example of a drummer making the music. I double my output when I play that.

[brotherben]

Mr. Ard,
I think Charlie Watts and Ringo and a number of other drummers from the early 60's rock explosion were heavily influenced by jazz. I think the jazz experience several of them had is the foundation for the popularity of several bands.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Guy Montag
What planet are you actually from?

[BDB]

What the fuck is Guy talking about?

[joe]

OK, the drummers have outed themselves.

Who else plays bass?

[VM]

oh!oh!oh!

I know! I know! I know!

the guy who tries, but can't get the rox chix like the guitar player can!

[tarran]

RE Guy Montag,

I've long be puzzled why he chooses that handle. I'm sure he chose to name himself after Ray Bradbury's doubting fireman on purpose, but I honestly can't map his writings to that of the fireman. His writings read like something out of Captain Beatty's public persona than anything else. If he ever were dumped into that universe, I suspect our Guy would be burning books enthusiastically.

[joe]

I think he meant to add an "e" to the end of his name, because his primary means of expressing himself seems to be to take two or more unrelated points, and put them right next to each other, in the hopes that the reader will put them together and take away the point he was trying to convey.

[BDB]

BDB, that comment was too complicated for you? Okay, I will play along.

You are the only person commenting in these threads that mention the "Joe the Plumber" story who is unaware that:

Numerous MSM types accused the Republicans of failing to jump into the background of some random guy, as if he were one of their "plants", just sitting in his own front yard waiting for Sen. Obama to approach him?

I guess the rest is the same huh? No idea about the guy being accused of practicing a trade without a license, even though he does not need a license, being a "tax cheat", etc.

Very well.

Missed item 3 in The Week in Brief for this thread too, it seems, as well as the hilarity on the Katherine Mangu-Ward post October 16, 2008, 5:28pm.

I am sure the drummer discussion has been keeping you busy anyway. Have a good day.

[Guy Montag]

October 18, 2008, 1:49pm was my typo in the name field.

[brotherben]

disclaimer: I am not a drummer. I was the lead singer/guitar player.

don't ask me bout the shape I'm in.
I can't sing, I ain't pretty, and my legs are thin.

[James Ard]

No drummer here either. Just crappy guitar, quantity over quality. I once played decent violin until I realized I wasn't as good as the worst Asian girl.

[brotherben]

I sure wasn't the lead guitar. I was the other guitar but I can't spell rythm.

[BDB]

Joe the non-Plumber? It was fucked up for McCain to use him like that in the debate without asking him permission.

But in the end he will probably make some cash off his 15 minutes, so it's a wash for him. I don't feel particularly sorry for him. Really, I could care less. Both the left making him into a villan and the right trying to make him into Joe the Martyr crucified by TheMedia on his cross of PVC Piping is just..well..ridiculous in the extreme.

[BDB]

And, in the end, he will have little or no effect on the outcome of the election. I think the election is essentially over barring a major outside force (and, no, not a McCain media stunt, I mean something like a real international crisis).

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Guy
I really haven't seen many stories about him at all the past few days, and very few of them seem to be "attacking" the guy. Some have mentioned the fact that he is not liscensed and that he owes taxes and that he made around 40,000. I imagine they mention this stuff because it is part of a public record a journalist can check on fairly easily. I don't see much of an attack on the guy. McCain purposely chose to make the guy a focus of his debate meanderings. In an appeal to the lowest common denominator he ridiculously mentioned "Joe the Plumber" over twenty times, so yes the media probably was curious as to who the fuck that guy is.

I heard the guy on tv and he sounded more like LoneWacko than Hayek (he talked about closing the borders and how going into Iraq was a good thing). He strikes me as a goofball to be honest, but hardly worth the time or effort to attack, unless people like yourself and other Republicans keep on and on about him (and then act scandalized when he is scrutinized!).

[Bingo]

All I have to say is "YouTube comments". The average American is as dumb as a brick and ready to run their mouth at a moment's notice. If the media weren't lefty-biased (and in love with the chap from Chicago) there would be just as many retarded Obama supporters getting their lives dissected and criticized.

It seems like the best course of action is just to stay far away from anyone with a microphone.

[BDB]

How was that started using "everyday people" in their speeches (particularly SOTU addresses)? Because I really hate it. I'm figuring it was either Clinton or Reagan.

[BDB]

Er, should be "Who is it that started..."

[Elemenope]

One day, after Guy, in a fit of pique, has banned all the other names, he will arrive at a thread here, and see the number of comments. He will click it, and see nothing.

And then he will be all alone.

[TallDave]

Amusingly, more people know about Joe the Plumber's tax problems than Barack's (he accepted speaker's fees in violation of ethics rules).

Of course, when they don't bother to report he had an unrepentant lefty terrorist babysitting his kids you can't really expect them to sweat the small stuff.

[Buddy]

All I have to say is "YouTube comments". The average American is as dumb as a brick and ready to run their mouth at a moment's notice. If the media weren't lefty-biased (and in love with the chap from Chicago) there would be just as many retarded Obama supporters getting their lives dissected and criticized.

The "mainstream media" does appear to be having a love affair with Mr. Obama. This will last until Jan 21, 2009. Once a politician is elected, those media types that don't get appointmented to some government position that they are completely unqualified for will be so angry for getting passed over for that asshole over at OBS (Other Broadcasting System) that every time Obama passes gas it will be noted and discussed in detail.

[TallDave]

Do these people calling for McCain to "vett" every single person who might ask Sen. Obama a question, FROM THEIR OWN PROPERTY (oops, private property, bad concept for Leftoids) have any idea how moronic they sound to normal people?

Heh, still waiting for any media outlet to vet Barack's drug dealer, or find anyone who knew him at Columbia.

And never mind those abandoned relatives in Kenya living in the kind of poverty Americans only see on the news. No, they're much too busy asking questions about Trig and Bristol Palin.

And here's more non-news, as more evidence surfaces that his sweet little real estate with convicted felon political fixer Tony Rezko was all kinds of crooked:

http://www.reversespin.com/?p=908

[Neu Mejican]

daveylee | October 18, 2008, 4:31am | #
Hey Neu Mejican - How long ago was it that you were 16? I'm guessing it was a while ago. That being said, Peart has done some amazing stuff in the past 15-20 years. Not sayin' you couldn't play it (No idea what your skill level is), but the man has heart and the most amazing hands and feet I've ever had the pleasure of seeing. Not to mention writing all of those lyrics!

I pretty much stopped learning the Rush after Movie Pictures.

Let me be clear. Neil Peart is a perfectly talented guy. As a drummer, however, the stuff he does is not that difficult. He is not that fast, and his rhythms are very linear...meaning that they are not that difficult in terms of coordination. As a drummer, Peart's primary claim to fame is precision. He is very precise, which is important for the music he plays.

He does not play with much heart/soul, however. Very cerebral.

Opinions about whether his playing is "good" or not are subjective, but in terms of the, shall we say, athletic aspects of drumming Peart is nothing special.

[Neu Mejican]

BakedPenguin | October 18, 2008, 7:28am | #
I don't think there's a rock band on the planet that could match the raw talent at rythym section of Keith Moon and John Entwistle.

Surpass? Probably not, but match?
My candidates:

Jaki Liebezeit and Holger Czukay (Can)
Bonzo and John Paul Jones
Chris Squire and Bill Bruford (Yes)
Stuart Morrow - bass, Robert Heaton - drums (New Model Army)
Peter Hook and Steve Morris (Joy Division)
Mike Watt and George Hurley (Minutemen)
Martin Atkins and Jah Wobble (PIL/Damage Manual)
David Narcizo, and Leslie Langston (throwing Muses)

[Neu Mejican]

Regarding Derek Roddy:

The speed metal drummers don't get enough credit...or too much depending upon the band their in. It is, however, a very specialized type of playing that doesn't necessarily translate into other types of playing.

Roddy is top notch and rises above most of his speed metal peers.

[Kolohe]

Who was it that started using "everyday people" in their speeches

Sly & the Family Stone?

[SIV]

Some have mentioned the fact that he is not liscensed and that he owes taxes and that he made around 40,000.

I wonder how much his taxes will go up if Obama is President? We don't really know do we?

[joe]

Isn't it a little condescending to refer to the guy as "Joe the Plumber?"

Sort of the elitist rich guy version of calling someone "Tony, my Black Friend."

[Elemenope]

I pine for the days when SIV was actually a single issue voter.

And the days when Guy Montag was a fireman.

And the days when TallDave was tall.

But those days are gone. A new age of darkness and despair has arrived.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"The "mainstream media" does appear to be having a love affair with Mr. Obama."

Sigh.

"Scholars hate the word 'bias' because they feel like they're entering the ideological fray," says S. Robert Lichter, head of the Center for Media and Public Affairs (CMPA) at George Mason University, who prefers the term "tone." Despite his efforts, Lichter himself got sucked into that fray. His content analysis of the transcripts of TV news broadcasts at the statement level is a respected and widely adopted methodology. This past summer, just as the view that journalists were going softer on Barack Obama than on John McCain was becoming widely accepted, CMPA issued a report showing that 72 percent of the statements in TV news reports about Obama in late spring and early summer were negative, whereas 57 percent of the statements about McCain were negative."

"Isn't it a little condescending to refer to the guy as "Joe the Plumber?""

Condesending and simple minded. It's such an obvious "I know this average joe" play it's pathetic. The fact that he actually used a guy named Joe makes it something of a meta-joke.

"I wonder how much his taxes will go up if Obama is President?"

If he implements the plan he says he will his taxes will go down (they will under the McCain plan too, again if he implements what he says he will, but not as much).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wpdyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"I pine for the days when SIV was actually a single issue voter."

To be fair SIV still is a single issue voter. His single issue is whether the candidate has an (R) next to his or her name.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Lichter by the way is pretty conservative. I've read some of his books. Hard to pin him as a pointy-headed lefty academic.

As I said upstream a lot of the "media favors Obama" stuff seems to really be "the media does not say exactly what I think about Obama as much I would like."

[BDB]

McCain just threw away the election:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGCQfCZo8DE

Is George Allen directing their campaign?

[SIV]

If he implements the plan he says he will his taxes will go down (they will under the McCain plan too, again if he implements what he says he will, but not as much).

See that's what I like about you MNG.You never drank too deeply of the Kool-Aid. Obama's "tax plan" is nothing but a campaign promise.We don't know what taxes Congress and Obama have in store for us outside his campaign promises.
Their respective records indicate we can expect net increases.

[joe]

C'mon, BDB, she just meant the pro-American parts of Virginia.

But remember, it's those mean city-folk always picking on small-town America.

[BDB]

Well, no Republican wins statewide unless they win Loudoun and Prince William County.

So yeah. Obama wins by eight points in VA, +/- three now.

[joe]

Sarah Palin talks about how much she liked the "pro-American part os America," and less than a day later, another McCain surrogate explains that "real Virginia" is "Southern in character," unlike those parts of Virginia where "Democrats come from Washington DC."

How many points of increased black turnout do you think this line of commentary is good for?

Eight? Ten?

[BDB]

It won't help him in the rest of the state, but in Northern Virginia there's probably going to be an even bigger turnout now. NoVA is already made at the rest of the state over transportation funding, and that "real Virginia" line reminds people of George Allen. Really bad time to bring up regional splits, Nancy.

Black turnout, too, because of the "southern" thing will probably increase in southside.

[BDB]

er "already mad".

[Buddy]

His content analysis of the transcripts of TV news broadcasts at the statement level is a respected and widely adopted methodology.

You read it here first. The "mainstream media" consists soley of over the air news broadcasts. The term does not include weekly news magazines, the daily paper, comedy and talk shows or radio.

Thank you for your half-assed analysis, Mr Nice Guy.

That said, I don't believe media coverage is what's killing McCain. Other, more likely candidates include
1) He's a crappy campaigner.
2) No intelligible message.
3) Baggage from supporting the current White House.
4) His VP choice.

We're stuck with somebody who believes in "social justice" and a congress that supports him for two years at a minimum. Like his press coverage, Obama's popularity will take a downturn after he takes office. I don't really worry about him fucking up too bad. It would surely be harder to do worse than his predecessor.

[Jim Bob]

Neu,

Tim Yeung is right up there with Derek Roddy- he's probably the best young drummer I've heard in years. He does use triggers, though, and often sounds like a machine, so I guess if you're not into that sort of thing it's not going to do much for you.

Pete Sandoval from Morbid Angel is another metal guy I admire. Ditto Paul Bostaph, formerly of Slayer.

Actually, I just like good drummers. After 15 years I like to think I know when when I hear one.

While I don't think Peart is overrated (just a damn fine drummer), I got so tired of hearing requests to show other guys how to play songs like "Tom Sawyer" that I boycotted Rush a long time ago. Peart is good, but he's not supreme.

joe,

I don't play bass, but I think it's one of the coolest instruments ever invented. I'm thinking of learning how to play a Chapman Stick, though.

[Kolohe]

I heard about the Pfotenhauer clip but only have seen it just now.

The worse part is the simultaneous condescension *and* self-loathing when she gets a chance to 'step back from the ledge' and insists that the area - that she is not a part of and is not as familiar with - is 'authentic' while the part where she actually lives is not.

I've spent a great deal of time in many parts of Virginia and with people from all parts of the commonwealth. There are definite differences between Galax, Blacksburg, Arlington, and Portsmouth, but jesus lady, each as 'real' as the other is.

[BDB]

I found the self-loathing part weird, too Kolohe.

Pftoenhauer would look just a BIT out of place in, say, Gate city or Sutherland, yet that's "authentic" to her.

[Kolohe]

I just realized, women aren't 'real' politcal pundits anyway, so why should I be annoyed. 🙂

[Nancus Pfotenhauerix Maximus]

I've seen much of the rest of Virginia. It is brutal and cruel and dark. Oakton is the light.

[Elemenope]

We're stuck with somebody who believes in "social justice"...

And you don't? Is there any other kind of justice, except that which is executed by the community upon its members?

[joe]

Neat-o, Jim Bob. I'd never heard of that.

The Google indicates that they have 8-string bass Chapman sticks, too.

[Jim Bob]

Hmm...I didn't know about the bass versions. Either way- it's a pleasant-sounding sort of instrument, I think. 😀 It's supposed to be kind of easy for drummers and people who already play a stringed instrument.

[Buddy]

We're stuck with somebody who believes in "social justice"...

And you don't? Is there any other kind of justice, except that which is executed by the community upon its members?

I speak liberalese as a second language. Social justice means group identification vice self identification. It leads to such wonderfuld policies as affirmative action (scoring memebers of different races differently), wealth redistribution (supposedly it's not the poor person's fault that they are poor), attempts to engineer equal outcomes rather than equal opportunity, and finally one of my faves, pay equity. Pay equity s equal pay for work of equal value. Not equal pay for equal work, but for equal value. We can all guess who would assign the "value" of a persons work.

You can wager money that people who are not paying their mortgage* will be given an undeserved break in the name of social justice as well.

*That in some (many?)** cases they would never have gotten but for "social justice" concerns.

** We'll get a handle on those numbers over the next couple of years. Expect the right to exagerate it and the left to minimize it.

[Orange Line Special]

Whoever said it is right: there's no bias. That's just a GOP lie. I have already apologized for my lies in my completely voluntary endorsement, and I encourage others to join the bandwagon!

It's sad how some people are trying to claim that I was coerced into giving that endorsement. Nothing could be further from the truth...---... I made that endorsement completely voluntarily and of my own free will.

Please, please, please...---... I urge you to join with me and help Obama with the six themes of his presidency:

* Health
* Education
* Liberty
* Peace
* Management
* Electrification

...---...Please!

[Elemenope]

I speak liberalese as a second language.

And here I though we communicate in English. My bad.

Social justice means group identification vice self identification.

Because in the English-speaking world, social justice does occasionally mean that. It also means those conditions in which individually just outcomes may occur.

Unless you believe no group qua group has been and/or is being denied individual justice for its members, and that the damage that that has done to the starting conditions and ability to earn and maintain property isn't systemic.

In which case I shall simply stand amazed and go no further.

[BDB]

Has OLS ever posted anything remotely worth reading here? Ever? What drives him to drop self-linking spam turds on every thread?

[Buddy Holly]

Unless you believe no group qua group has been and/or is being denied individual justice for its members, and that the damage that that has done to the starting conditions and ability to earn and maintain property isn't systemic.

What groups would you maintain are at a systemic disadvantage? Is a groups own culture part of that systemic disadvantage? If so, what should government do in the namee of fairness to stamp out those traits.

[Buddy Holly]

I'm a bit curious Elemenope. Which "groups" should be given an advantage over my children? Should my daughter be given preferences over my sons? Should religion matter in this grand calculation on what is socially just. You can change your religion, so I'd assume that would be a disallowable reason for advantage or disadvantage. Others would likely disagree though.

Is it the that funny shaped Y chromososme that is the big difference? Sexual preference? Race (whatever the hell that means when you attempt to quantify it)? How much your partents made when you were little? Or how much they make when you apply to the University?

Children raised by single parents do worse in life. They are definitely an identifiable group that is disadvantaged. In the name of social justice, how does that that compare to someone who is 37.5% white, 50% African Amereirican and 12.5% unknown? Does it matter if either of them is transexual?

These are some of the questions we will be attempting to address with legislation over the next two years (at least). These are the things that government almost inevitably will make worse over the next two years (at least).

[Elemenope]

What groups would you maintain are at a systemic disadvantage? Is a groups own culture part of that systemic disadvantage? If so, what should government do in the name of fairness to stamp out those traits.

Say what? Who said anything about intrinsic traits? Groups can also be formed by the actions of those outside the group; groups can be invented out of whole cloth or redefined for political purposes. For example, the Nazi definition of "Jew" included many who would not self-identify as Jews.

The premises of your second and third questions are thus fairly ridiculous.

As to your first, groups that have historically been screwed and to some extent currently are screwed...that's a long list. And certainly the individual achievement of members of any one group is not wholly determined by membership in that group, it is generally a substantial factor, controlling for vagaries of individual experience.

[Elemenope]

And when did I say anything about giving "advantages"?

I do wish to head you off from tilting at windmills and lopping the heads off of straw-men.

[Elemenope]

These are some of the questions we will be attempting to address with legislation over the next two years (at least). These are the things that government almost inevitably will make worse over the next two years (at least).

I want to borrow your crystal ball!

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"Thank you for your half-assed analysis, Mr Nice Guy."

Yeah Buddy, while the television wing of the "MSM" was being hard on Obama the other wings were in the tank for him. Sure.

I'm afraid your counter-analysis doesn't even have half an ass to it...

[Mr. Nice Guy]

When we give physically weaker people police and armed forces protection that physically stronger people don't need, is that social justice? Cuz I think that's in Libertopia the last time I drove through there (on a private toll road of course).

[Mr. Nice Guy]

It turns out that everyone is in agreement with some "coercion" in order to protect certain interests and rights. People disagree over those interests and rights.

And liberals are for "equal opportunity" too, it's just that they tend to think that when one person is born into Rockefeller money and another is born into Joe the Plumber money there is no "equal opportunity" between them.

And just like your willing to authorize coercive force to protect your system of "equal opportunity" (like having the government enforce contracts, eject tresspassors, arrest robbers) so are liberals willing to authorize coercive force to protect their system of "equal opportunity" (school loans, public education, social security, etc).

[daveylee]

Jim Bob and Neu,

I'm just a bit curious, have either of you heard or paid attention to Rush since 1981? Peart has grown and broadened his rhythmic horizons a great deal in the past 25+ years. Yes he's a precision drummer. That's kind of a requirement in a prog outfit. But if you haven't listened since "Tom Sawyer", you've missed more than half of his prog work, and the entirety of his other explorations (African rhythms, big band jazz, swing, etc.). If you haven't listened, check some of their newer stuff out.

I'm not saying he's the greatest drummer out there. I know there are better. But it seems like you guys are judging his work based on what he did in the first 6 years of his career.

As far as speed metal or prog metal drummers are concerned, I think you have to give props out to Mike Portnoy of Dream Theater. Mad mad technical skills. Sometimes he doesn't get recognized for what he is because he's part of such an extremely talented ensemble.

Joe -
I'm not a full time drummer myself. I mainly play lead/rhythm guitar. Played everything but keyboards on stage at one time or another though. I've played a lot of bass in my time as well.

[Neu Mejican]

daveylee | October 18, 2008, 10:05pm | #
Jim Bob and Neu,

I'm just a bit curious, have either of you heard or paid attention to Rush since 1981?

Sure.

Peart has grown and broadened his rhythmic horizons a great deal in the past 25+ years....(African rhythms, big band jazz, swing, etc.). If you haven't listened, check some of their newer stuff out.

Sure, but...well, like I said. He's perfectly talented (fine drummer), but not top of the heap by any stretch.

Jim Bob,

Chapman sticks are cool and are a good transition for a drummer. I have been thinking hammered dulcimer.

[Neu Mejican]

Jim Bob,

After 15 years I like to think I know when when I hear one.

Newbie.

I had 15 years on drums 25 years ago.

Fuck.

I just realized.

That makes me OLD.

[gaijin]

Peart is live on the DrumChannelDOTcom at the Buddy Rich Memorial Concert if you care to see...like now (10:40 pm Eastern)

[joe]

Dream Theater isn't my cup of tea, but you can't deny that drummer has some skeelz.

[Puck]

Here's a fun article by Jacob Weisberg of Slate. I knew it along, Reason caused the financial crisis! Oh, and libertarians are responsible for all the death, hunger, torture, poverty, etc. in history and its chiefly Ayn Randian high school book clubs who are to blame

Truely a hoot

http://www.slate.com/id/2202489/

[Bingo]

I'm pretty drunk but this seemed to sting.

To be fair SIV still is a single issue voter. His single issue is whether the candidate has an (R) next to his or her name.

I mean, damn. SIV? SIV the Poster, any response?

[prolefeed]

joe | October 18, 2008, 5:04pm | #
Isn't it a little condescending to refer to the guy as "Joe the Plumber?"

If I understand the guy's politics from watching the TV clips of him on the Daily Show, he would be extremely grateful for any clarifying label that keeps him from being confused with the other "joe", at least on these threads. :o)

[Mr. Goodbar]

Mr. Nice Guy confuses equal opportunity and equal outcomes. Libertarians support coercion for equal opportunity, liberals support it for equal opportunity plus equal outcomes.

[Mr. Goodbar]

The latter, btw, is less preferable to libertarians since also enforcing equal outcomes requires an *exponentially greater amount* of coercion.

[Jim Bob]

daveylee,

I like Peart. He's a fantastic drummer. I remember being impressed about his decision to switch to traditional grip after two or three decades of being a matched grip player. He just doesn't blow me away like he does some people I have known, and that's fine. Just personal preference.

When it comes to educated/technically proficient drummers, I'm more a Weckl kind of guy. But really, I enjoy and listen to drummers of every style. I like Tony Williams, John Bonham, Omar Hakim, Danny Carey, Thomas Haake, Will Calhoun, Vinnie Colaiuta, Buddy Rich, Christian Vander, Dave Grohl, Freddie Gruber, the list goes on. I got over arguing about why one particular badass drummer is better than another when I was 15.

Neu,

Holy fuck, dude. I mean, holy fuck. Doesn't your arthritis keep you from playing much these days? 😉 I keed, I keed.

[SIV]

I mean, damn. SIV? SIV the Poster, any response?

The only commenters who accuse me of that are the Democrat shills.The accusation comes when they don't wish to address the point I'm making.The only "libertarians" who have made that charge are the ones who use most of their comments praising/defending/ and crowing about Obama.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"Mr. Nice Guy confuses equal opportunity and equal outcomes."

I think that's a nice catch-phrase, but often not much to it. As I pointed out if you ask a liberal they will tell you that they think they most certainly are promoting equal opportunity by their policies. For example they will tell you that they support subsidized student loans or needs based grants on the idea that it "levels the playing field" between teenager x who just happened to be born into a family with gobs of wealth (and hence more "opportunity") and teenager y who just happened to be born into a family without those advantages. I don't think any of them (well, at least serious ones) think the two will need to come out with exactly "equal outcomes" for the policy to be a success.

Where I tend to break with some of my more extreme liberal friends is their failure to realize what liberal icon Rawls realized long ago: that if you value both the material betterment of the bulk of society AND equality of opportunity you have to accept (even welcome I guess) some level of inequality since that creates incentives which are the powerful engine of material prosperity. In other words, it's OK, even daft, not to eat some of the eggs the goose lays, but insane to kill the goose and eat it. And many hard core lefties seem to think the eggs come from heaven or something and we can just kick the goose around willy-nilly.

Interestingly my views would make me a natural ally for libertarians in getting a lot of what they want. But as they tend towards being purists so often any person who does not share their unconditional laissez-faire (which of course is not laissez faire, see my post above) approach is the equivalent of one of "teh socialistz" or is "for slavery."

[Mr. Nice Guy]

"The only commenters who accuse me of that are the Democrat shills.The accusation comes when they don't wish to address the point I'm making.The only "libertarians" who have made that charge are the ones who use most of their comments praising/defending/ and crowing about Obama."

To paraphrase Homer Simpson "Yeah, that's it. It's not about me being a shill, it's about everyone else being a crazy Democratic shill."

As Jesus said, by their fruits ye shall know them. Just go look at SIV's posts here. Does he criticize Republicans? Almost never to my knowledge (I once challenged him to name one area where the Dems are better than the GOP, something even any right leaning lib should be able to easily do, but I don't think I ever got an answer). Do his posts seem like clumsily calculated attempts to follow the GOP memo of the day? Sure (he admits getting his news from Michelle Malkin, Drudge and such). Are they full of the euphemisms of LGF posters ("DemocRAT", the "Democrat Party", etc)?

I lean more Dem than GOP here on H&R but I'm quite vocal where I think the Dems are far worse than the GOP (i.e., affirmative action, immigration, gun control). There are other posters that seem to lean left but are quick to jump on a Dem pol or position (BDB, LMNOP, etc). And then there are many very principled traditional libertarians that post here regularly (J sud D, fluffy, tarran, even TAO whom I disagree with a lot but respect) whom dish it out fairly euqally to the two parties (as any self-respecting libertarian would).

Then there are the TallDave's and Guy Montag's and SIV's who are Republicans who at times feign libertarianism (though I'm not sure TallDave even feigns it anymore).

I'm afraid the days of posing as a single issue libertarian are past for SIV. It's all over but the shilling.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

But, in Mr. Nice Guy spirit, I like that SIV knows about wrestling. I hope for the sake of his soul that he is a proper Ric Flair, HBK and/or Steve Austin fan and does not cheer that poser John Cena. How that guy got the push I will never fathom...

And if his much stated devotion to recreational drug use would rub off on his GOP allies the world will have improved quite a bit.

[BDB]

Comparing SIV to TallDave is really unfair to SIV.

[BDB]

FWIW I don't like the Democrats or Obama as much as I think the Republicans deserved to be crushed and crushed hard this election for fucking up so bad.

[joe]

Comparing SIV to TallDave is really unfair to SIV.

No, it's unfair to TallDave. TallDave comes on here and tells us what he thinks - "The invasion of Iraq was a strategic masterstroke!" - and if you don't like it, tough titties. He is what he is.

SIV - who took that name to mean "Single Issue Voter," which was supposed to mean that he didn't have any partisan leanings but was only concerned about laws banning cockfighting - comes on here and lies to us about who he is and what he thinks to push talking points he might or might not even agree with, but which he thinks will be effective in manipulating libertarians to support Republicans.

[BDB]

TallDave said Iraq was a "strategic masterstroke"? Are you serious?

[joe]

BDB,

Yes, he did, and laid out his reasons for saying so.

On the Reason magazine blog's comment threads, he did this. Wingnut or not, that's what a stand-up guy does.

Come to think of it, I think we've been wrong. I don't think it's TallDave who keeps posting under fake names like "Barack Obama" and "Bill Ayers" and "Joe the Plumber."

I think it's SIV.

[joe]

Maybe we can get a little help from Jesse Walker on this.

[Neu Mejican]

Neu,

Holy fuck, dude. I mean, holy fuck. Doesn't your arthritis keep you from playing much these days? 😉 I keed, I keed.

You kid, but, in fact drumming and fucking are the two things the arthritis doesn't seem to bother. Thank goodness for small favors.

;^)

[Neu Mejican]

I like Tony Williams, John Bonham, Omar Hakim, Danny Carey, Thomas Haake, Will Calhoun, Vinnie Colaiuta, Buddy Rich, Christian Vander, Dave Grohl, Freddie Gruber,

Yeah, don't want to start a list that goes outside of rock or things proliferate fast.

Max Roach (I got to be in a drum clinic with him in high school).
Joe Morello
Tony Allen
Yehousi Leopold (Orchestra Poly-rhythmo from Benin)
Zakir Hussein
Sheila E.

Yadda yadda

The beat goes on.

[Neu Mejican]

And how have we not mentioned Bernie Purdy?

[Neu Mejican]

That's, PurdIE, of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9hq7IEqyKQ

[VM]

joe - I think it's actually croesus/ jean bart/ jason bourne/ the merovingn (whetever)/ Hak/ GG / Seward/ New M (???)...

🙂

[joe]

Sheila E.

Props for that.

[Neu Mejican]

joe | October 19, 2008, 2:41pm | #
Sheila E.

Props for that.

I saw Sheila E. play congas with George Benson when she was, like, 15...girls got some serious skills....

It's in the genes, of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Escovedo

[Buddy Holly]

Elemenope,

Let us start this all over.

1) Are there groups that are systemically disadvantaged? (I say yes. Those poorly educated and neglected as childen are obvious).
2) By what criteria should the government use to identify these groups and which individuals are members? (I say the factors are too numerous, complex and vague to comepently address.
3) What government actions are permissable to give redress to the systemically disadvantaged "groups"? (I say those who have been illegally hindered should have the right to sue those, and only those, persons or organizations that have illegally harmed them).

You tell me the "groups" that deserve "social justice" compensation and what that justice/compensation would entail. Any claim that advantaging one doesn't disanvantage another is a denial of reality and the meaning of words.

Give it your best shot.

[Fluffy]

Interestingly my views would make me a natural ally for libertarians in getting a lot of what they want. But as they tend towards being purists so often any person who does not share their unconditional laissez-faire (which of course is not laissez faire, see my post above) approach is the equivalent of one of "teh socialistz" or is "for slavery."

You admit that you agree with Rawls that the only justification for human freedom is group benefit.

You also seem to be admitting that your goal is to find the level of freedom that maximizes tax revenue or the ability of society to get "golden eggs".

AND you reflexively do so by using an analogy that compares a portion of the citizenry to domestic animals.

Silly us, to wonder if we really are natural allies.

[tarran]

Are they full of the euphemisms of LGF posters ("DemocRAT", the "Democrat Party", etc)?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the name Democrat Party was the proper name of the political party?

I certainly have used it in the past, and have never seen it as pejorative.

Did I miss the memo? 😉

[Mr. Goodbar]

The biggest difference between a libertarian and a liberal in regards to the issue of coercion is that the liberal agenda greatly widens the scope of coercion allowed. To enforce the vast swath of measures needed to get the kind of equal of opportunity Mr. Nice Guy is talking about requires a much more powerful police state to back all of those extra laws up.

[Mr. Goodbar]

Also, defending positive rights, as opposed to just negative ones, greatly increases the amount of coercion needed in the system.

[joe]

tarran,

The name is "Democratic Party." The term "Democrat Party" was invented in the 50s by Joe McCarthy, as a pejorative.