Roslin '08: Ready from Day One

Last night Cap'n Ed Morrissey of the good ship Hot Air offered this prediction on the Democratic race.

If superdelegates had begun to reconsider their support of Obama after Crackerquiddick, they're speed-dialing Hillary after watching Gibson dismember Obama on national TV tonight.

A few hours later comes the first post-debate superdelegate endorsement. And it goes to… Obama. The second superdelegate? Oh, yeah, also to Obama.

Phil Klein speculates on this disconnect, between conservatives (myself included) who think this was the most unimpressive debate performance by a national candidate since the first Bush-Kerry debate, and Democrats who think Obama stood heroically up to a mean-mouthed assault from the Fourth Estate.

It's kind of like in the wake of the YouTube debate last year in which pundits on the right praised Clinton for attacking Obama as being naïve for wanting to meet with foreign dictators. (Clinton was being the grown up, Obama wasn't ready for primetime.) But to liberals, Obama's stand reinforced the fact that he was the candidate who represented a true break with the Bush foreign policy. Obama may have been pummeled last night, but there's a lot of liberal rage against ABC, and Clinton will be seen as a collaborator who spent the night doing John McCain's dirty work.

That's working for Obama with the Democratic electorate. What's working for him on the superdelegate level is that Clinton does not, and never did, look more electable than Barack Obama. A shudder of dread went up in many Democratic quarters after John Kerry lost, as they realized that Clinton, now the 2008 frontrunner, was going to struggle mightily to score 50 percent of the vote against any Republican. For months and months you could watch Clinton pander to various centrist or conservative interest groups as her flacks argued, desparately, that she wasn't as unelectable as you thought. The early waves of superdelegates went to her out of lust for spoils; the second wave, for Obama, are going because they're convinced he can win. Clinton's job has been to make Democrats believe he'll wind up this process as hated as she is, or as Kerry was, or as Dukakis was. But Democrats don't want to believe that. This or that debate performance aside, Obama is obviously the most talented pol they've had on their team in decades. They don't want to hear that he'll be mau-mau'd over the flag, or his pastor, et al.

This whole ugly affair brings to mind the struggles of President Laura Roslin in Battlestar Galactica. She begins her re-election campaign with a healthy lead, padded by the belief that she has clarivoyant powers and will lead her people to the promised land. She stumbles early on by making an unpopular anti-abortion stand. Her opponent, Gaius Baltar (advised by a former terrorist--shades of Bill Ayers!) has no traction until the fleet stumbles upon a new, barely habitable planet where humankind can settle and declare a truce in their War on Cylons. Baltar starts surging, and Roslin asks her political director Tory why that is.

Tory: Madam President, in my opinion, people vote their hopes, not their fears. Baltar is offering them what they want to hear, and you're offering them a bitter reality.

Roslin: I'm offering them the truth.

Tory: They don't want to hear the truth. They're tired, exhausted. The idea of stopping, laying down their burdens, and starting a new life right now is what is resonating with the voters.

Roslin: How well is it resonating?

Tory: It could turn the entire election around.

Replace "starting a new life" with "getting over the 90s and defensive war-on-terror politics" and you've got your analogy. And then Roslin tried to steal the election with forged ballots.

Comments

[Episiarch]

Stop stealing my ideas, Dave.

[J]

Episiarch | April 17, 2008, 11:22am | #
Stop stealing my ideas, Dave.

That's exactly what I thought when I saw this too.

Quite funny.

[Elemenope]

And of course the biggest joke of all was that Roslin wasn't ready from day one. Far from it, a dead end political appointee ready to retire and crawl away to die of cancer, thrust by (what she called) a 'mathematical absurdity' into the position. No prep, no experience, and no prospects.

And she likes to shove people out airlocks when she doesn't get her way.

[Pro Libertate]

It's 3:00 a.m. and your children are safe and asleep The phone is ringing. Adama has found another Cylon. Who do you want to shove him out of the airlock?

[henry]

Weigel,

It sounds like you and Jonah Goldberg have a lot in common.

That is not meant to be a complement.

[Dave Weigel]

Episiarch, I didn't even see that until you linked it! Very funny. Great minds and all that.

[Troy]

I would never have thought to use Battlestar Galtica as a means to explicate the vagaries or American political discourse.

Dave is a genius.

[Dragonfly]

Cally goes out the airlock. Not because she's a Cylon, just because she's annoying.

[Fluffy]

Hillary is no Roslin.

BTW, I think that the occasion of this debate and the reaction to this debate is a good opportunity to do a little Randist / Thatcherite reductivism.

There seems to be a theme to the establishment commentary on the debate this morning: a grudging concession that, yes, the questions were puerile and focused on non-policy-related trivia, followed by a blanket declaration that this is how "the system" works and it's up to Obama to demonstrate that he can deal with it.

The problem with this argument is that there is no such thing as "the system". There is no entity "the system" that can take actions or possess attributes. There is only the accumulation of the discrete actions taken by individual persons. In the case of the national political media and commentariat, a relatively small number of individuals. Each and every action undertaken by each one of those individuals is subject to its own individual moral analysis and scorn.

Talking about "the system" is a dodge to attempt to generalize [and thereby avoid] the moral responsibility for the actions of these individuals.

There was no "system" that took some action while we all passively sat by, helpless and blameless. Charlie Gibson asked questions, and he is morally responsible for his choice of questions. Various press luminaries commented on those questions and the content of the debate, and they are morally responsible for their contribution. If Marc Ambinder wants to throw up his hands and say, "I can't help it, it's just the system, man!" he is a liar.

[TallDave]

When did Obama morph into a warmonger?

"I will do whatever is required to prevent the Iranians from obtaining nuclear weapons," Obama said.

Geez, last I heard he was just going to have a nice quiet chat with them.

It's weird when the leftiest Dem is to my right on an issue.

As I've said before, Iran is going to get nuclear weapons, and excepting nonmilitary actions like sanctions, our best option is probably just to accept it. They do not have Saddam's history of invading his neighbors and the Iranian people are fairly pro-American.

[joe]

These conservatives, like Captain Ed, are the same people who told us that Hillary was inevitable because she owned the party; Reverend Wright was going to knock Obama out of the race; Bittergate was going to cause his poll numbers to go down; and the effect of the "A More Perfect Union" speech would be to make people angry that he sold our his gramma.

These people don't understand Democrats, or how the Democratic Party works. Everything they write about this race is solipsism, projected onto Democratic voters and delegates. They should stick to subjects they understand better.

[Mick]

Old school Galactica was way better...

[Episiarch]

Oh, sure, Dave. Compliment me to distract me from the truth. How very Baltar of you.

[Elemenope]

"Do you believe in the flag, sir?"

I wanted to reach through the screen, then reach through the you-tubes, find that lady's neck and throttle her.

You, ma'am, are what is wrong with America.

[Neu Mejican]

Frakking lame analogy.

Really.

Frakking.

Lame.

Roslin is more McCain than Clinton...in bed with the Military, all about security and destroying the enemy in our midst.

Come on.

[Fluffy]

Joe,

I tend to think that the people who do that are simply hoping that the media will take up their claim and magnify it.

If the media claims loudly enough that you're losing and are a loser, it will become true, 9 times out of 10.

[Pro Libertate]

joe,

To be fair, it's only HRC's insanely high levels of ineptitude that have removed the anointed oil from her skin. It was ridiculous that she was given so much early support, given her inexperience and untested ability to campaign nationally (helping Bill was not the same thing; not at all). Fortunately for her, Obama isn't a particularly strong candidate, either, so she can hang around until the bitter end.

McCain is Lee Adama. Angry.

[Episiarch]

McCain is Lee Adama. Angry.

And the guy he looks just like, Tigh, isn't angrier? Tigh is so similar to McCain it's scary.

[Neu Mejican]

Lee Adama is Colin Powell.

[Neu Mejican]

Tigh is the guy McCain will have as a running mate that will take over when he is in the hospital on a respirator?

[MP]

Old school Galactica was way better...

You are clearly drunk.

[Elemenope]

Tigh is so similar to McCain it's scary.

What's gonna be scary (and retarded) will be the undoubtedly endless Tigh/McCain mashup videos that will appear all over the you-tubes come this autumn.

[Lurker Kurt]

Old school Galactica was way better...

You are clearly drunk.

Or a troll.

[Pro Libertate]

What the hell is wrong with me? McCain is Tigh. I guess I'd do better if BSG actually had seasons and schedules and stuff.

[Kolohe]

after reading episiarch's original and lmnop's (spoiler to last week's episode in link), I had the thought that Baltar is actually *Bill* Clinton and Hillary is #6 - completely disregarding pulchritude, of course.

[joe]

I've gotta start getting BSG on netflix. It sounds pretty neat.

[Kolohe]

What's gonna be scary (and retarded) will be the undoubtedly endless Tigh/McCain mashup videos that will appear all over the you-tubes come this autumn.
Not a video per se, but it's been out for almost a year now.

[John-David]

I've a weird feeling McCain is going to turn out to be Commodore Matthew Decker.

[Elemenope]

joe --

If you do, start with the mini-series instead of season one. The mini-series was the real "pilot" of the show, but not knowing that, you might get season one and be confused by all the shit going on.

[Edward]

Wouldn't libertarians kill to have a candidate with a fraction of Hillary's guts or Obama's charm? I mean, look a the losers you've had to pin your hopes on.

[Elemenope]

Kolohe --

Upon seeing that, I've come to the conclusion that McCain is a cylon-squirrel hybrid. Those cheeks are what ruins it.

[TallDave]

I would go with Petraeus for Lee Adama.

This or that debate performance aside, Obama is obviously the most talented pol they've had on their team in decades.

I don't think so. People keep saying that, but all he's really done is run to the left of Hillary, who made the same mistake Guiliani did of assuming her lead would hold up even if she ran as a centrist. Everyone thought Dukakis was a political genius too, when he had that 17-point lead.

[Episiarch]

So what would be McCain's Doomsday Machine?

[Pro Libertate]

What's great is that Michael Hogan will be at the top of the line to play President McCain, assuming that McCain wins. He'll probably have an, er, eventful presidency, too. Excellent fodder for a motion picture or, at least, a miniseries.

[Cesar]

ABC should be banned from ever hosting a debate again.

The more I think about the dumb ass questions asked in that debate, the more it pisses me off.

[TallDave]

If you do, start with the mini-series instead of season one.

Actually, they're packaged together now.

http://www.amazon.com/Battlestar-Galactica-Edward-James-Olmos/dp/B000AJJNFE/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1208448240&sr=8-4&tag=reasonmagazinea-20

"Picking up where the miniseries ended (it's included here, sparing the need for separate purchase),"

[Dave Weigel]

What's great is that Michael Hogan will be at the top of the line to play President McCain.

I cast Hogan in that role for "Petraeus: Man of Iron."

[Pro Libertate]

ABC: Senator Obama, if you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?
Obama: [several moments of silence] Excuse me?
ABC: Answer the question, sir! America has a right to know!

[henry]

My guess is that not a lot of the posters to this thread are getting laid a lot.

[Reinmoose]

I thought people voted for both their fears and their hopes. This is why John McCain is still in the race

[Kolohe]

I would never have thought to use Battlestar Galtica as a means to explicate the vagaries or American political discourse.

BSG is the best show on TV because for most of the first three seasons, it tackled the interaction of politics, society, morality, military, religion & power, in a way pretty much unseen before on tv. Futhermore, it's the best treatment of these issues in any format since Dune.

*spoiler just below*

The only weaknesses were when the series got seriously bogged down when they got too heavy-handed with the Iraq war references, and made one too many throwaway episodes after the new caprican exodus, but has more or less recovered since then.

[Elemenope]

Actually, they're packaged together now.

Ahh. A good move.

[Edward]

henry

Maybe not, but they sure are fucked up.

[J sub D]

Wouldn't libertarians kill to have a candidate with a fraction of Hillary's guts or Obama's charm? I mean, look a the losers you've had to pin your hopes on.

I'll buy Obama's charm. What has Hillary ever done that displays guts? Since guts is being used as a synonym for bravery, what is the bravest thing Hillary has ever done? Unprotected sex with Bill doesn't count.

[H man]

Roslin's a cylon. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Elemenope]

My guess is that not a lot of the posters to this thread are getting laid a lot.

Troll or not, Henry, but I've found that chicks are hot for BSG in a way they aren't for much else sci-fi fare.

[TallDave]

Guts and charm in a politician?

I think libertarians should shudder at the horrors such a combination would likely produce.

[Cesar]

Joe this stuff could still very well hurt him a lot in the general election, so don't count out the effectiveness of swift boat slime attacks just yet.

[val]

If you do, start with the mini-series instead of season one.

Actually, they're packaged together now.

http://www.amazon.com/Battlestar-Galactica-Edward-James-Olmos/dp/B000AJJNFE/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1208448240&sr=8-4&tag=reasonmagazinea-20

"Picking up where the miniseries ended (it's included here, sparing the need for separate purchase),"

There is also a film, called Battlestar Galactia: Razor, which is also very good. Its a side story of Pegasus. I would watch it after season 3.

joe, I'd definetely give BSG a try, if you like sci-fi or can atleast tolerate it you wont be disappointed.

[Edward]

J sub D

I have long suspected that those who hate and fear Hillary the most are right-wing men with very small penises.

[Pro Libertate]

joe's a Bene Gesserit witch, so he's good with science fiction.

[TallDave]

swift boat slime attacks

True, pointing out what Obama has actually said may sink him in the general just as it did Kerry.

It's interesting that Dems thought Kerry would be the most electable candidate even though the 1971 statements that destroyed his campaign were well known to them. The generally-friendly MSM coverage of Dems seems to have an insulating effect that often causes them to miscalculate the general election impact of what they have said.

[Edward]

Guts and charm in a politician?
I think libertarians should shudder at the horrors such a combination would likely produce.

Right. Why go for guts and charm when you can get stupidity and kookiness? Anyway, libertarian candidates aren't really trying to get elected; they're doing educational work. How many voters know about the gold standard?

[Taktix?]

Oh God, what's that smell?

[Cesar]

Then again slimeball attacks might work when things are relatively quiet and tranquil (1988, 2000, 2004,) but don't seem to work well when things are really in the toilet (1976, 1980, 1992, now).

Trying to paint Bill Clinton as a pot-smoking, draft dodging Communist agent in 1992 didn't pan out.

[Franklin Harris]

What's gonna be scary (and retarded) will be the undoubtedly endless Tigh/McCain mashup videos that will appear all over the you-tubes come this autumn.

Too late:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaCkFm0XlVQ

[Edward]

It's the smell of reality intruding on your fantasies, Taktix?. Kind of acrid, isn't it?

[JW]

Nah. Hillary's more of an Admiral Kane. Domineering, dishonest, out of her mind with power lust and willing to throw her ethics and morals in the toilet to accomplish her goals at a moment's notice.

Obama is more of a Boomer than anything else: sleeper agent with no idea of who he really is until it's too late.

Yep, Tigh = McCain. Spot on.

There is no political equal to Adama. He's DA MAN. He's too human to be part of the political class.

[TallDave]

Why go for guts and charm when you can get stupidity and kookiness?

What makes you think they won't go together?

Hugo Chavez and Robert Mugabe come to mind.

[kwais]

I thought you were talking about the president in "Prison Break", which I thought was also relevant. She seems a lot like Hillary, specially the season 1 prison break.

So lots of Battlestar Gallactica fans here?

I'll have to get season 2

[SugarFree]

McCain needs an eye patch.

[Cesar]

Its still amazing how wrong the MSM has been on just about all fronts of this primary election.

I.e.

Rudy vs. Hillary!

Fred Thompson is the next Ronald Reagan!

John McCain is dead in the water!

White people in Iowa won't vote for a black guy!

Hillary is dead in the water...er wait, Obama is finished!

Wright will really hurt Obama!

Bittergate will really hurt Obama!

And on and on.

The miniseries I'm watching right now is John Adams, not BSG, FWIW.

[J sub D]

Edward -

I gave you an opportunity to actually discuss a point you attempted to make, rather than reflexively belittling your Homo erectus intellect.

I shall not over estimate your intelligence or wit again. You are a boring, lame, stupid twit.

[TallDave]

slimeball attacks...2004

The real slimeball attacks in 2004 did fail: the forged Bush Guard memos that blew up in Dan Rather's face.

Of course, unscrupulous Dems could always forge some memos saying McCain shirked his service too. Maybe this time around they'll be smart enough not to use Microsoft Word.

[Taktix?]

You know, Edward, you are so right. I don't know how I didn't realize it before! I was blinded, I suppose.

Thanks man, it's really nice of you to help me through this epiphanical trial of my will. Your the best.

Want to be BBF? Lol!

[Edward]

Why go for guts and charm when you can get stupidity and kookiness?
What makes you think they won't go together?

Hugo Chavez and Robert Mugabe come to mind.

Yeah, but they've been successful. I'm thinking of the libertarian stupidity and kookiness of an Aaron Russo or a Ron Paul--the kind of stupidity and kookiness that never gets beyond the making-people-cringe stage.

[Cesar]

TallDave, that was on the level of George Allen accusing Jim Webb of writing kiddy porn(!) and hating women.

[B]

No, no, no.

Roslin is more Bush than Clinton. Convinced of her own divine purpose, etc.

Also, please do not compare a classic beauty like Mary McDonell to Hillary fracking Clinton...

[Episiarch]

McCain needs an eye patch.

Seconded. Somebody go tell his NVA prison guards they fucked up.

[Edward]

J sub D

And you think the same tired old Hillary bashing is witty?

[TallDave]

Yeah, but they've been successful.

Yeah, that's why it's so scary.

I'm thinking of the libertarian stupidity and kookiness of an Aaron Russo or a Ron Paul--the kind of stupidity and kookiness that never gets beyond the making-people-cringe stage.

Yeah, it's a shame we can't get a little more credibility in our libertarians.

[Edward]

"Yeah, it's a shame we can't get a little more credibility in our libertarians."

Maybe it's the product. Just sayin'. I mean, you guys should be the ones into marketing.

[Cesar]

Yeah Edward, what did Alan Greenspan ever do anyway?

Kook!

[SugarFree]

Epi,

I wish Tigh's wife was still around so they could have him call her a "trollop" on the show and make the likeness complete.

[Edward]

Cesar,

Sorry, I didn't know Greenspan had been a libertarian candidate. When did he run?

[Cesar]

He was a devotee of Ayn Rand, Edward.

libertarian != Libertarian Party.

[Edward]

So Greenspan was a card-carrtyng member? But when was he the Libertarian candidate?

[Cesar]

If you were past a fourth grade reading level I'd recommend his book he goes on at length in there about his philosophy.

[Vermont Gun Owner]

Elemenope,

Troll or not, Henry, but I've found that chicks are hot for BSG in a way they aren't for much else sci-fi fare.

Really? My girlfriend is a sci-fi fanatic (Stargate, Dr. Who, Farscape, Firefly, Star Trek, Dune, etc) who even wants me to go with her to a sci-fi convention at some point, but she just falls asleep on me when we watch BSG. Her parents are also into sci-fi, but her mother isn't all that interested in BSG.

In fact, the only people that I can think of who like BSG are male (me, my girlfriend's father, and my sister's ex).

[Pro Libertate]

My wife likes the show well enough to sit and watch it with me on occasion.

[Episiarch]

I wish Tigh's wife was still around so they could have him call her a "trollop" on the show and make the likeness complete.

Or McCain could kill his wife. Just saying, to make the likeness complete.

As for behind the scenes, I don't know how McCain treats his wife, but I know how my ex treated me. Our relationship lasted another 7 months, and the emotional/mental abuse wore me down slowly. Eventually he started raping me, but at the time I was so mentally fucked that I didn't understand what was happening.

Oh, you are a terrible, terrible person SugarFree, to link to this thread.

[roversaurus]

TallDave says:
True, pointing out what Obama has actually said may sink him in the general just as it did Kerry.

It's interesting that Dems thought Kerry would be the most electable candidate even though the 1971 statements that destroyed his campaign were well known to them. The generally-friendly MSM coverage of Dems seems to have an insulating effect that often causes them to miscalculate the general election impact of what they have said.

Kerry didn't lose because of what he said in 1971.
He lost because he was running against an incumbent President during an economic expansion and a war that was still not perceived as a failure.

[Edward]

Greenspan called himself a "libertarian Republican," Cesar, and he would no more have associated himself with the pathetic little Libertaian party of Aaron Russo and Ron Paul than he he would have eaten cow turds.

[Cesar]

Edward I'm a libertarian and don't associate myself with the LP, either, nor do the vast majority of posters on this site.

Whats your point?

[SugarFree]

you are a terrible, terrible person

Stop, stop... all this praise will go to my head.

[Cesar]

Edward you've been on this site how long and you never learned the difference between a Libetarian and a libertarian?

[roversaurus]

My expert comment on the debate:

I disagree with Weigel. I think Obama did well.
I think it was good for him. While I may not
be like most voters in that I've already made up
my mind based on policy positions. I am like
most voters in that I'm not paying attention to
them.

I watched about 15 minutes of the debate while
flipping channels to better programming.
I haven't paid much attention to Obama or Hilary scandals. Therefore I base my opinions
on feelings and impressions.

Obama looked and sounded confident and intelligent
and strong and safe whenever I saw him.
Hillary looked scared. She had trouble glancing
over to her side where Obama was towering over her. Her eyes looked like she was afraid of him.

[Pro Libertate]

I'm a libertarian Republican, and I've voted LP many times. I also have taken action to adjust M0 an M1 upon occasion, but that's another story.

[Caleb]

I'm with henry.

[Edward]

Edward you've been on this site how long and you never learned the difference between a Libetarian and a libertarian?

Apparently you haven't learned the difference, Cesar. I was talking about stupid, kooky Libetaian candidates, and you bring up Greenspan. Idiot.

[Jim Walsh]

Crackerquiddick?

[Cesar]

I'm not the idiot who forgot to capitalize the "L" so I knew which kind of libertarian you were talking about.

Now you remember to! See even trolls like you with asperger's syndrome can learn.

[Cesar]

I was talking about stupid, kooky Libertarian candidates

And what point were you trying to make exactly?

Russo is a kook. Ok, so what? What the hell is your point?

Seriously, Neil has made more substantive points.

[Edward]

Is the word "candidate" a new one to you, Cesar?

[Episiarch]

Seriously, Neil has made more substantive points.

And Neil is unintentionally hilarious, providing for much amusement. You're just a bitter douchebag, MK2...whoops, I mean Edward.

[Cesar]

Ok, Edward, Russo was a kook. Wow, I agree with you, so would 99% of the non-PaulBot posters here. So.....whats your point?

[Edward]

My orginal point was that libertarians (Or Libertarians) would probably love to have a candidate (one to promote the libertarian cause) with the guts of Hillary or the charm of Obama rather than the silly, stupid kooks you've been saddled with. Greenspan doesn't count.

[J sub D]

And you think the same tired old Hillary bashing is witty?

Pot/kettle. Compared to the drivel you post, I'm a one man Algonquin Round Table. I asked for an example of Hillary's bravery. You couldn't name one. Step up to the plate or admit you're full of shit.

[Urkobold?]

THE URKOBOLD PREFERS EDWARD IN THE ORIGINAL GERMAN. THUS,

Scheinbar haben Sie nicht gelernt, der Unterschied, Cesar. Ich war dumm reden, verr?ckt Libetaian Kandidaten, und bringen Sie sich Greenspan. Dumkopf.

HOW SOOTHING.

[J sub D]

It's been an hour, Edward. What has Hillary ever done the exhibited bravery or "guts" as you call it?

[Edward]

Hillary is pretty gutsy to keep battling away against the odds at this point. How much guts does it take to adhere to an irrelevant political cult and blatheringly repeat the same old shit dogmas ad nauseam, J sub D?

[Cesar]

Edward, does Alan Keyes also have guts?

Seriously, shes doing it so she an ask donors to keep giving her money so her campaign debts can be paid off, not because she has "guts".

[Urkobold?]

AH. PRESIDENT BUSH IS GUTSY AS WELL, STICKING TO HIS IRAQ PLAN DESPITE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE THAT IT'S NOT WORKING. THE URKOBOLD MUST NOT UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF THE WORD, "GUTS." FORGIVE HIM, ENGLISH IS NOT HIS FIRST LANGUAGE.

[Edward]

Okay, Cesar. I concede the Keyes point. Forget the Hillary-has-guts part. She's obviously the Alan Keyes of the Democratic party. How about Obama's charm? Wouldn't you love to have a Libertarian candidate with Obama's charm?

[Cesar]

Actually, Edward, I'd prefer a candidate that has a shitload of money and knows how to spend it.

Ross Perot got 19% of the vote this way and got the two parties to at least endorse parts of his agenda out of fear.

[Edward]

But Hillary is really smart. I'm sure you'll concede that.

[Cesar]

This, despite the fact Perot had all the charm of a jar of mustard.

[Edward]

Nazi money, Cesar? Money raised by selling racist newsletters?

[Cesar]

Edward, Nixon was a brilliant man and hes the closest thing we've ever had to a petty tyrant in this country.

[Edward]

Well, I've achieved what I wanted to achieve. I've got a bunch of knuckleheads to engage a troll. Cheerio, morons.

[J sub D]

J sub D | April 17, 2008, 1:09pm |
I asked for an example of Hillary's bravery. You couldn't name one. Step up to the plate or admit you're full of shit.

Edward | April 17, 2008, 1:16pm |
Okay, Cesar. I concede the Keyes point. Forget the Hillary-has-guts part.

So you have chosen the latter option. Perhaps there is hope for you yet.

[joe]

Elemenope,

Thanks, I didn't even know there was a mini-series.

henry | April 17, 2008, 12:08pm | #

My guess is that not a lot of the posters to this thread are getting laid a lot.

Hey, I'm married! What do you expect?

Joe this stuff could still very well hurt him a lot in the general election, so don't count out the effectiveness of swift boat slime attacks just yet.

Maybe, Cesar, but they've been "predicting" this would happen in the primary, too. As per Fluffy, they seem to have been "predicting" it as hard as they could, in the hopes of making it happen.

The Swift Boat attacks didn't sink Kerry. His non-response response played into his series of half-measures in opposition to Bush, making him seem gunshy. Even then, he came closer to unseating an incumbent wartime president than any other candidate in history. This time - no Shrums. In fact, counterpunching seems to be what Obama does best.

Then again slimeball attacks might work when things are relatively quiet and tranquil (1988, 2000, 2004,) but don't seem to work well when things are really in the toilet (1976, 1980, 1992, now). Yeah, retread Boomer culture war is a luxury item that people worry about when they can afford to.

[I wish AlGore had stolen the e]

And then Roslin tried to steal the election with forged ballots.

You mean like Al Gore's people did in Palm Beach and Broward Counties in 2000.

[Elemenope]

Really? My girlfriend is a sci-fi fanatic...

See, that's your problem right there. I've found it to hold true more with chicks who do not like sci-fi as a rule.

[Cesar]

Well, and now Clinton is only ahead +1 in the latest Zogby poll in Pennsylvania.

I wonder if the talking heads will bring that up, or just ignore how stupid they were about "Bittergate"?

[joe]

It has been hilarious watching the mainstream media try to explain away how wrong they got the public's response to bittergate.

Scarborough: uh...uh...maybe we'll see the polls change on Friday?

Matthews: Hey, I know this guy who tells me this is all over talk radio!

'kay fellas.

[Isaac Bartram]

As I've said before, Iran is going to get nuclear weapons, and excepting nonmilitary actions like sanctions, our best option is probably just to accept it. They do not have Saddam's history of invading his neighbors and the Iranian people are fairly pro-American.

I have to agree.

[Cesar]

Joe they've simply decided not to talk about it and are moving on to Bill Ayers.

Its really, really sad that at my age I even know who Bill Ayers or the Weathermen are.

[TallDave]

It has been hilarious watching the mainstream media try to explain away how wrong they got the public's response to bittergate.

Like the ARG poll that showed a 20-point drop?

Obama's trend has been to come into places where Hillary is leading and rapidly eliminate that lead with huge spends and lefty rhetoric. Hasn't happened in PA.

[Cesar]

Uh, Dave, she came in like +20 now in the latest poll shes +1.

Average +6.6, thats way smaller than what she had. And no movement about Bittergate.

[Isaac Bartram]

I've gotta start getting BSG on netflix. It sounds pretty neat.

Holy Cow, I agreed with TallDave and joe on the same freakin' day.

Go to your shelters people. Armageddon is nigh.

[TallDave]

Edward, Nixon was a brilliant man and hes the closest thing we've ever had to a petty tyrant in this country.

Not even close. FDR was much closer to a dictator. He did things Nixon never dreamed of: running for a third term, internment camps, mass arrests of war protestors, attempting to stack the Supreme Court, wiretapping the press and political opponents, the largest government expansion ever.

[TallDave]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/pa/pennsylvania_democratic_primary-240.html

You can see even without the ARG poll there's no movement.

[Cesar]

Dave, if Nixon had been our President in the midst of a total war he would have done all that and probably way more.

Its a three way tie between Wilson, FDR, and Nixon, but if you're talking about outside the context of a World War Nixon wins.

[joe]

You really want to argue polls with me again, son? Didn't work out so well last time.

Like the ARG poll that showed a 20-point drop?

No, like an analysis that doesn't require you to cherrypick a poll to get the result you want.

Hasn't happened in PA. Yes, it has. The pattern has played out exactly the same in PA as in almost every other state. Hillary had an 18-20 point lead coming out the last primary, and now with a week to go, Obama has it down to the mid-single digits. The question now is whether he closes the deal, or whether that margins remains.

I'm picking the latter. She wins by 5-8.

[Cesar]

I seem to see slight movement towards Obama AFTER "bittergate". At the very least, the media was wrong that it was going to sink him.

[joe]

Wait a second, is there a 20 point drop or has there been no movement?

Go back to Red State and check up on the talking points.

[Cesar]

No, the talking points now are that all the undecideds will break to Hillary, apparently.

[TallDave]

No, FDR tried to stack the court well before Pearl Harbor. It had nothing to do with the war.

On Jan. 30, 1937, Roosevelt's 55th birthday, the president disclosed to his closest aides a draft bill to reorganize the federal judiciary. The measure -- mischievously linked to a long-ago proposal by 75-year-old Justice James C. McReynolds -- called for all federal judges to retire by age 70. If they failed to do so, the president could appoint another judge to serve in tandem with each one older than 70.

The practical effect of the proposal: Roosevelt could have appointed six more Supreme Court justices immediately, increasing the size of the court to 15 members. A Congress dominated by Democrats undoubtedly would have appointed judges friendly to Roosevelt and his New Deal agenda.

Its a three way tie between Wilson, FDR, and Nixon

Not even close.

[Cesar]

K, I give you the court thing.

My point still stands Nixon is a piece of shit.

[joe]

I seem to see slight movement towards Obama AFTER "bittergate".

Probably just noise.

I think the race stablized over a week ago - which was a few days before the San Francisco comments got reported. They can't even be said to have stalled his momentum.

Heh, Obama bashing ABC in a speech now. Cripes, is even last night going to help him?

[TallDave]

Wait a second, is there a 20 point drop or has there been no movement?

Obviously if there's been no movement with the 20-point drop taken out, there's been negative movement with it. And as I said, the normal trend has been Obama gains, so no movement means Bittergate has probably hurt him.

Go back to Red State and check up on the talking points.

Oh, gee, the wildly partisan joe is calling me a partisan shill. Yawn.

[TallDave]

Anyways, it's certainly fun to see Obama go from "Words matter" to "People are too obsessed with what I say."

[joe]

So a poll of a number of polls shows no movement.

And yet one shows a 20 point drop.

Not even a 4 or 8 point drop. A 20 point drop over a few days.

This is only difficult for someone shilling a set of talking points.

[TallDave]

Yes, if you're shilling a set of talking points you toss out the results you don't like and ignore the previous trends for Obama.

[DannyK]

This is straight out of high school. Senator Clinton is the nerd, happily joining up with the Mean Girls to beat up a rival, not realizing that the minute Obama's beaten they'll turn on her.

What I'm seeing is McCain, Clinton, and the traditional media all ganging up on Obama. That says to me that he's the one they're worried about. And NOT because he's secretly in touch with the Cylon-Moslem fascists.

[Elemenope]

Anyways, it's certainly fun to see Obama go from "Words matter" to "People are too obsessed with what I say."

If you've ever read A Canticle for Leibowitz, you'd know just how compatible those two statements are.

Even when some words matter, not every word matters. For example, the shopping list of a five centuries dead guy: doesn't matter.

[TallDave]

Here's a talking point from... TalkLeft.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/4/14/125129/490

new Rasmussen national poll finds 56% of Americans disagree with Obama's remarks calling small town Pennsylvanians bitter and clinging to G-d and their guns. Only 25% approve

Not everyone agrees, though:

According to Tracy Klujian, 35, a bitter florist from suburban Philadelphia, "When I'm not too busy clinging to guns or religion, I'm going to cling to Barack Obama."

Maybe this will actually help Obama!

[Edward]

I feel bad about messing up your nice thread here. It's sort of like making fun of Mormons. Accept my apology.

[joe]

Yes, if you're shilling a set of talking points you toss out the results you don't like You toss out the extreme outliers when aggregating data, d00d. This is high school statistics here.

...and ignore the previous trends for Obama.

Let's go to the tape:

joe | April 17, 2008, 2:03pm | #

Maybe this will actually help Obama! I wasn't going go to the scene of your humiliation, but since you brought it up - yeah, maybe his response to this bulllshit, likke his response to the Wright statements, will end up helping him, causing the entire kerfuffle to end up as a net gain for him in the primary. Probably not, though, because he's not going to put together a major speech over something like this.

[Kolohe]

One more Hillary : Roslin :: ?:?

Roslin has Tory

Hillary has Huma.

[joe]

Hey, where'd my cut n paste go?

When I'm slapping TallDave around, I don't need these tag issues!

That's, "...and ignore the previous trends for Obama.

Let's go to the tape:

joe | April 17, 2008, 2:03pm | #

I seem to see slight movement towards Obama AFTER "bittergate".

Probably just noise.

I think the race stablized over a week ago - which was a few days before the San Francisco comments got reported. They can't even be said to have stalled his momentum.

[Thirteenth Cylon]

If Hillary is Roslin, then Roslin is the last Cylon!

[Pro Libertate]

joe, I don't like how you use italics.

[joe]

If you would just change the order of things slightly - first look at the data, then decide what's going on - you'd do so much better.

Did you know, TallDave, that I didn't write anything about this episode having no effect on the race on Saturday? Or on Sunday? Or Monday? Or Tuesday?

No, I waited all the way until Wednesday, so we could have 5 whole days of post-story polling to see if there was a trend, because I certainly wasn't going to go mouthing about what some people I've never met think, until I had some solid data to go on. And then, I was going to make sure my conclusion conformed very closely to what the data indicated.

That's how I roll.

[joe]

I could start working in some block quotes to make things clearer. Yeah, that's a mess, inn't it?

[Pro Libertate]

Yes, but I was just kidding. It just seemed the right thing to type for some reason.

At least you've learned to close the tags. I understand that some people were considering violent solutions to your problem. Not me, of course. Others.

[joe]

*snaps on Saf-T-Taint*

[Pro Libertate]

Wise action, joe.

Blogger appears to be more restrictive about what HTML you can use in the comments section, which pisses me off to no end over at Urkobold. I want HTML freedom! CSS! Tables! Images! Javascript! And yes, by God, BLINKING TEXT!

[joe]

I'd like some of those buttons, where you don't have to type the tags yourself.

I think that would be a win-win.

[R C Dean]

Wouldn't you love to have a Libertarian candidate with Obama's charm?

I would.

They do not have Saddam's history of invading his neighbors

Well, not counting their current activities in Iraq, that is.

Still, I think the mullahs have correctly calculated that no one will do anything to stop them getting their nukes.

I think the question is, if they act this bad without a strategic deterrent, what will they be like when they have one?

I think the race stablized over a week ago - which was a few days before the San Francisco comments got reported. They can't even be said to have stalled his momentum.

I'd probably have to agree, given that it looks like his momentum had already stalled. The unknown is how this will affect the motivation of the bitter hicks to vote against him, either now or in November.

[R C Dean]

I'd like some of those buttons, where you don't have to type the tags yourself.

No shit. A simple set of italics, bold, block-quote, and link buttons would do wonders. If they really wanted to treat us right, they'd give us a strike-through button.

[Isaac Bartram]

RC

At this point the Iranians are not doing anything beyond filling a power vacuum.

A power vacuum, I might add, that was created by our invasion and the destruction of the traditional relationships.

In spite of appearances the Persians do not seem to have any wider imperialistic aims.

[joe]

I think the question is, if they act this bad without a strategic deterrent, what will they be like when they have one?

Let's keep in mind, the Iranians weren't pulling this shit before we started this war, and certain people ahem ahem started shouting "On to Tehran!"

[Paul]

Frakking lame analogy.

Word, Roslin is teh hawte...Hillary on the other hand...

[Pro Libertate]

Just so long as the Iranians don't get more HTML tags than we do, I'm good.

[Fluffy]

Well, not counting their current activities in Iraq, that is.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa!

Don't tell me you think that the US can be said to have invaded Nicaragua?

[During the Reagan administration, I mean. Obviously we did in fact invade them those other two times.]

[J sub D]

No shit. A simple set of italics, bold, block-quote, and link buttons would do wonders. If they really wanted to treat us right, they'd give us a strike-through button.

Add my whiny melodious voice to the pleading for HTML buttons. Nick, are you listening?

[Pro Libertate]

Buttons? We don't need no stinkin' buttons! I'm fine typing in tags and code. What I want is simply the power to format my text in the way the Founding Fathers intended.

BLINK

BLINK

BLINK

[J sub D]

Buttons? We don't need no stinkin' buttons! I'm fine typing in tags and code. What I want is simply the power to format my text in the way the Founding Fathers intended.

You drive with a manual transmision, don't you?

[Pro Libertate]

I do. And when I ran a web site for a nonprofit a while back, I used Notepad to edit the HTML [maniacal laughter].

[Franklin Harris]

Roslin has Tory

Hillary has Huma.

Roslin wins, because Tory doesn't look like she hasn't eaten for a month.

[jacksmith]

MY FELLOW "BITTER", STUPID, WORKING CLASS PEOPLE 🙂

If you think like Barack Obama, that WORKING CLASS PEOPLE are just a bunch of "BITTER"!, STUPID, PEASANTS, Cash COWS!, and CANNON FODDER. 🙁

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think Barack Obama with little or no experience would be better than Hillary Clinton with 35 years experience.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with no experience can fix an economy on the verge of collapse better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) led the greatest economic expansion, and prosperity in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with no experience fighting for universal health care can get it for you better than Hillary Clinton. Who anticipated this current health care crisis back in 1993, and fought a pitched battle against overwhelming odds to get universal health care for all the American people.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with no experience can manage, and get us out of two wars better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) went to war only when he was convinced that he absolutely had to. Then completed the mission in record time against a nuclear power. AND DID NOT LOSE THE LIFE OF A SINGLE AMERICAN SOLDIER. NOT ONE!

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with no experience saving the environment is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) left office with the greatest amount of environmental cleanup, and protections in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with little or no education experience is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose 😉 husband (Bill Clinton) made higher education affordable for every American. And created higher job demand and starting salary's than they had ever been before or since.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that Obama with no experience will be better than Hillary Clinton who spent 8 years at the right hand of President Bill Clinton. Who is already on record as one of the greatest Presidents in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think that you can change the way Washington works with pretty speeches from Obama, rather than with the experience, and political expertise of two master politicians ON YOUR SIDE like Hillary and Bill Clinton..

You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you think all those Republicans voting for Obama in the Democratic primaries, and caucuses are doing so because they think he is a stronger Democratic candidate than Hillary Clinton. 🙂

Best regards

jacksmith... Working Class 🙂

p.s. You Might Be An Idiot! 🙂

If you don't know that the huge amounts of money funding the Obama campaign to try and defeat Hillary Clinton is coming in from the insurance, and medical industry, that has been ripping you off, and killing you and your children. And denying you, and your loved ones the life saving medical care you needed. All just so they can make more huge immoral profits for them-selves off of your suffering...

You see, back in 1993 Hillary Clinton had the audacity, and nerve to try and get quality, affordable universal health care for everyone to prevent the suffering and needless deaths of hundreds of thousands of you each year. 🙂

Approx. 100,000 of you die each year from medical accidents from a rush to profit by the insurance, and medical industry. Another 120,000 of you die each year from treatable illness that people in other developed countries don't die from. And I could go on, and on...

[jacksmith]

DON'T BE DUPED !!!

Large numbers of Republicans have been voting for Barack Obama in the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses from early on. Because they feel he would be a weaker opponent against John McCain. With Hillary Clinton you are almost 100% certain to get quality, affordable universal health care very soon.

But first, all of you have to make certain that Hillary Clinton takes the democratic nomination and then the Whitehouse. NOW! is the time. THIS! is the moment you have all been working, and waiting for. You can do this America. "Carpe diem" (harvest the day).

I think Hillary Clinton see's a beautiful world of plenty for all. She's a woman, and a mother. And it's time America. Do this for your-selves, and your children's future. You will have to work together on this and be aggressive, relentless, and creative. Americans face an even worse catastrophe ahead than the one you are living through now.

You see, the medical and insurance industry mostly support the republicans with the money they ripped off from you. And they don't want you to have quality, affordable universal health care. They want to be able to continue to rip you off, and kill you and your children by continuing to deny you life saving medical care that you have already paid for. So they can continue to make more immoral profits for them-selves.

Hillary Clinton has actually won by much larger margins than the vote totals showed. And lost by much smaller vote margins than the vote totals showed. Her delegate count is actually much higher than it shows. And higher than Obama's. She also leads in the electoral college numbers that you must win to become President in the November national election. HILLARY CLINTON IS ALREADY THE TRUE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE!

As much as 30% of Obama's primary, and caucus votes are Republicans trying to choose the weakest democratic candidate for McCain to run against. These Republicans have been gaming the caucuses where it is easier to vote cheat. This is why Obama has not been able to win the BIG! states primaries. Even with Republican vote cheating help.

Hillary Clinton has been OUT MANNED! OUT GUNNED! and OUT SPENT! 4 and 5 to 1. Yet Obama has only been able to manage a very tenuous, and questionable tie with Hillary Clinton.

If Obama is the democratic nominee for the national election in November he will be slaughtered. Because the Republican vote cheating help will suddenly evaporate. All of this vote fraud and republican manipulation has made Obama falsely look like a much stronger candidate than he really is. YOUNG PEOPLE. DON'T BE DUPED! Think about it. You have the most to lose.

The democratic party needs to fix this outrage. Everyone needs to throw all your support to Hillary Clinton NOW! So you can end this outrage against YOU the voter, and against democracy.

The democratic party, and the super-delegates have a decision to make. Are the democrats, and the democratic party going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee to fight for the American people. Or are the republicans going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee through vote fraud, and gaming the DEMOCRATIC party primaries, and caucuses.

Fortunately the Clinton's have been able to hold on against this fraudulent outrage with those repeated dramatic comebacks of Hillary Clinton's. Only the Clinton's are that resourceful, and strong. Hillary Clinton is your NOMINEE. They are the best I have ever seen.

"This is not a game" (Hillary Clinton)

Sincerely

jacksmith... Working Class 🙂

[heyhey]

Mary McDonnell has also made this comparison. I think that what it comes down to is that both Clinton and Roslin are pragmatists (Roslin a fairly brutal one) who are viewed as divisive largely because of personal reactions to personality traits.

As an aside, as an incredibly liberal Democrat, I'm completely horrified at how easily my party, the media, and even a lot of middle of the road voters have been taken in by Obama. Love her or hate her, at least Clinton did -something- in the Senate, while she was there. Obama did nothing for two years, then ran for president. Not to mention little things like the fact that an Iraqi contractor paid for $300,000 of the cost of his house. How on earth can anyone say that that's less dirty than Hillary Clinton, or most any elected official for that matter? And how can liberals justify backing a man who named James "blame Hollywood Jews for Brokeback Mountain" Meeks as one of his "spiritual advisers and mentors" after spending 20 years hammering Republicans for ties to the religious right? It's appalling.